Conference terri::cars_uk

traffic lights are often put on roads for the sole purpose of slowing down
(& usually congesting) traffic

idea behind this is to reduce acidents


...art

But the majority of accidents happen at low speeds anyway!
OK, so they're not as serious as high speed ones, but there's a lot more of
them.

Also, the frustration of continual stop-start driving and being held up makes
people do silly things.  For example, if the person in front stalls at a
junction, the car behind might reverse, to get room to pull round them, and hit
the next car back.  (This happened to my mum (she was the one reversed into!)
and I've seen it all over the place).  Also, people try and get across the
lights before they change / as they are changing, hence SPEED UP on approach to
the junction... then can't stop before hitting the queue the other side of the
lights.
Then there's also those who do an emergency stop the instant the lights change
orange, which rather surprises the car behind (or the bus behind that I was
travelling on at the time!).

The list is endless.  In my very humble and lowly opinion, traffic lights are
rather dangerous things, and any benefit gained by slowing down the traffic
(which I'm not convinced they do, even if that's the intention) is more than
lost by cases such as the above.  Although such accidents are all human error,
the nature of the junction makes it easier to commit such errors.

Roundabouts are much more effective at slowing down cars; a driver sees a sharp
bend and knows they HAVE to slow down or they'll hit the wall in front of them.
But on a straight road with lights the mentality is to go faster to beat the
lights.  I frequently drive through Bracknell (full of roundabouts and very few
traffic lights, for those who don't know) and although there is a lot of traffic
hold ups are few and brief.

Scott

	Quite a good idea over here in Holland is to set the many of the
	traffic lights to "flashing amber mode". This is done from mid or
	late evening to early morining, exact times depend on how busy
	the junction is generally, rush hour times etc. 

	The amber light just flashes on and off, this gives you the option
	to "proceed if safe", general rule is give way to the right.

	Gordon 

    I think all traffic lights should be banned !!!

> Then there's also those who do an emergency stop the instant the lights change
> orange, which rather surprises the car behind
    
    yes it does !  this happened to me this morning....the extra 6 foot of
    space I thought I had to stop in (+ all the cars behind me) sort of
    suddenly wasn't there....I am so glad the car behind me had decent
    brakes :-)

    On a recent US visit we came across urban "no priority" junctions
    with traffic from three or four directions and no lights, roundabouts,
    give way signs nothing. After our initial confusion, they worked
    *very* well. Everyone took their turn and there weren't major snarl
    ups. Somehow, I don't see the British "Mr Average" being so polite
    however :-)
    
    The other thing I like abroad if the change from red to green without
    amber. This seems to be far more sensible, and give little scope
    for jumping away from the lights.
    
    Paul
     

	For a prime example of how bad the situation can become due to a 
failure of one set of traffic lights you should have been at Camberley on Good 
Friday morning.  The lights failed at the new large roundabout at the junction 
of the A30 with the A321 Blackwater Valley relief road (by the new Tesco / M&S).
This left 3 dual lines of traffic trying to merge into 1.  It took us over an 
hour to get from the M3 junction to past the roundabout, a distance of approx 
1� miles!



                               A321 N
		               /    /
		              /    /_________
		             / ^    >
		            /       _________
		           /       /
		          /       |
		         /         \
		        /  ^  ^   ^ \
		       /             \
		______/    /|    |\   \________
	A30 W      >      / |    | \  <          A30 E
		_________/  |  ^ |  \_________
		            |    |
		            A321 S

Traffic lights also help people to cross the road. How often do you stop at
inoperative traffic lights when someone is trying to cross.

Simon

I think that in many cases roundabouts are better than traffic lights but it's
horses for courses - some junctions are better with each.  The situation gets
silly if you go too far in any direction.  A case in point is the entire County
of Hertfordshire in which practically every single junction has a roundabout. 
If it's not big enough for a proper one, they paint a mini-roundabout on it.
The culmination of this policy is the Magic Roundabout at Hemel Hempstead.

Jon

    I also encountered the traffic lights mentioned in .0, this morning, I
    was amazed that at 8.30 this morning it took me only 10 mins to get
    from the station in reading to DEC park, (is this a record I wonder!)

    Roundabouts work best when the traffic is already flowing smoothly and
    there are breaks in the flow that enable people to enter the
    roundabout.
    
    They dont work when one of the exit roads is congested and the
    congestion blocks the roundabout. Thats why traffic lights were
    necessary at the M4 junction near DEC Park. Without them traffic from
    the M4 (Eastbound) would have to rely on someone on the A33 letting
    them through. I imagine that would be difficult if you need to cross 3
    lanes to turn south on the A33 in the morning.
    
    I dont know that traffic lights work much better. The only congestion
    policy that I know of which works is the one used by DECnet routers -
    when you get congestion you simply throw away some of the traffic until
    you are no longer congested. May be someone should try that !
    
    Andrew

    The acid test will be next week when the school holidays end.
    
    Traffic may be marginally lighter, with a large number of brats
    on various school trips - thus negating a drive to school, and
    folks going off on foreign trips.
    
    Re: a long way back about Americans at intersections. Americans
    (certainly Texans) are trained to deal with this, and lights out, 
    situations. Its called the 4-way stop. The best decription I can give
    off this beast is that it is a rounderbout, with out the circle.
    Drivers take it in turns to do their bit on the intersection. In
    Texas, if traffic lights fail, or are flashing red, then drivers treat
    that junction as a 4- or 3- way stop, depending on the shape of
    the junction. This way traffic keeps moving.
    
    In England, drivers face the traffic lights out situation in one
    of three ways.
    
    1) Timid dithering. This driver (the norm) gets to the non-functioning
    lights and stops. The driver waits until the junction is completely
    clear for a good four hundred yards (meters) in all directions before 
    venturing across the junction. This driver will not enter the junction 
    if there is any possiblity of another car coming within 200 yards (meters)
    of it.
    
    This situation gets really ridiculus when two or more timidious
    drivers hit the junction at the same time. They all stop, and all
    refuse to go. When one plucks up enough courage to move forward,
    it usually notices that the other drivers have similar aspirations, 
    and so hits the brakes. Thus, we see these cars bunny hopping on
    to the junction.
    
    Unfortunately, a huge queue of irate drivers normally builds up
    behind our timid hero. The other drivers remark on the excessive
    caution of our timid driver, by sounding their horns, making explicit
    getures, and shouting words of encouragement such as 'Get a f*****
    move on you b******.' Spurred into action by such encouragment, our timid 
    driver then picks the worst possible moment to leap frog into the 
    junction, thus causing an immense pileup.
                       
    
    2) Decisive driver. This driver realises that there are a vast number
    of timid drivers who stop at dead lights. Treating the junction
    as just another junction, this driver approaches it with reasonable
    caution.
    
    Observing a timid driver at the junction, our decisive hero simply checks
    that the way is clear, and drives through the junction - absolutly
    no problem.
    
    If there is another car approaching the junction, and it looks if
    things might get close, the driver applies the rule that traffic
    entering the junction from the right, has right of way - unless
    it is a timid driver, whereupon it is obvious the car will stop
    at the junction.
    
    If our hero spots another driver, who obviously feels that they own
    the road and won't stop at the dead lights and instead speeds up,
    then one of two actions will be taken:
    
    a) slow up a little, so that the other twit clears the junction,
    thus allowing our hero to motor through with no problems
    
    or
    
    b) Speeds up, to beat the other S.O.B through the junction.
                 
    
    3) Grid lock driver. This driver is normally encountered in built
    up areas with heavy traffic. Even if the junction is blocked with
    cars, this driver will enter the junction thus adding to the bumper
    to bumper jam - afterall it is the driver's God given right to drive
    on the road, and they own every bit of it. Never mind the fact that by 
    holding back a little from the junction, traffic entering from another 
    road can flow through the junction, thus avoiding grid lock.
    
    Angus
                                                               

    Re -1. Magic stuff
    
    Rich
    

I think that four-way stops in the UK would be as successful as roundabouts 
(called rotaries here) in New England. They are unfamiliar in the UK and 
would cause chaos on congested roads. Here in the US they tend to be on
smaller roads/less important junctions. Just about every other sort of
junction has traffic lights.

Despite huge signs telling people what the priority is on a roundabout, and
Yield (i.e. Give Way) signs on each approach, Boston area rotaries get 
clogged in rush hour by people who don't know where they are, give way to 
people who want to come on to the roundabout, and think that the correct 
way to get off a roundabout is just to point your car in vaguely the right 
direction, even if that cuts off two  or three lanes of roundabout traffic
in the process. Forget signalling - I don't think I've ever seen it 
used for getting off a rotary here (except by British drivers).

I could see the four-way stop in the UK causing just as much chaos. And 
though I think that Boston area drivers are generally far sloppier than 
their British counterparts, I believe they are more courteous at equal-access 
junctions, and that is why the four-way stop works.

John

Re .12  
>    I dont know that traffic lights work much better. The only congestion
>    policy that I know of which works is the one used by DECnet routers -
>    when you get congestion you simply throw away some of the traffic until
>    you are no longer congested. May be someone should try that !

You mean let the police stop traffic and say " Sorry! Please turn here and
go back from where you started. Wait for XX (enter time value) then try
again." 

If only it were true Ha ha he he ha....:-)
Dave

    Must be a family trait,(tee-hee)!
    
    

    
    re -1
    
    Is someone being maligned ?
    
    Elaine 

    Re .10
    
    The magic roundabout at Hemel Hempstead is quite brilliant, and
    without question the high spot of a town vieing with Reading as
    the pits of the earth (and I speak as a relieved ex resident). The
    glory of it is that it can function even with a major acciden on
    it, as traffic can circulate both ways. I have never seen any problems
    there apart from normal rush hour shunts and non locals stopped
    short trying to power up their brains.
    
    Lets have them everywhere - how about the A33?
    
    Steve

    I agree that the Hemel roundabout is brilliantly simple!!! (once you
    get used to it).
    
    The beauty of it is that your progress feels slower compared to large
    "open" roundabouts (like the one at M4 junction 11 by DECpark) where
    speeds of 45-50 mph are not uncommon (with, often, the associated
    almost instantaneous deceleration against the side of a large truck.
    The traffic flow overall through the magic roundabout is far, far
    greater because more people can actually get onto it and off it again,
    most of them without encountering most of the other traffic on it.
    
    I wish they were able to convert the Jct 11 roundabout - it my opinion
    it would make it a lot safer. I suppose there is not enough room.
    
    Colin

    
>>    "open" roundabouts (like the one at M4 junction 11 by DECpark) where
>>    speeds of 45-50 mph are not uncommon (with, often, the associated
    
      I agree, if everyone was going slower, more people would be able to
    move onto the roundabout. I notice this particularly when I'm towing
    with the Landy, I can be stuck for ages waiting to get onto the big
    J11-type roundabouts, because of the dozens of 'hot-hatch' drivers 
    determined to demonstrate their car's 0-60 time. All this does is hold
    up everyone behind me, who are probably all muttering to themselves
    about banning slow vehicles from the roads in rush hours - but that's 
    another topic isn't it! :-)  
    
    Now... a speed limit on roundabouts..........           

	Re .-1.
	
	I can just see your tonge stuck solid in the cheek there!

	Or is this sacrilege from a member of the speed mad Mitchells.

	-John

    Another vote for 'magic' roundabouts. Pity they didn't put one at
    Robin Hood, Newbury. 
    
    Chris

    
    re -2, The point I'm making is serious, and if the only way to keep
    traffic flowing is to introduce a speed limit on roundabouts (at peak
    times), then why not? - If you're stuck in a jam behind something which 
    cannot do 0-60 in 8 seconds, then no-one is getting anywhere very quickly! 
    
    Elaine 

    The Robin Hood at Newbury no longer needs a speed limit ....
    
    m
    

    I thought roundabouts (e.g. M4 J11 HAD) speed limits! (J11 40mph?). No,
    if people are determined to race then you must physically slow them
    down, e.g. speed ramps as used in a road in reading (can't remember
    name, past millenium in towards reading, through lights, next right).
    
    These have an effect of slowing down overall speed without having to
    'control' traffic as they're trying to do to the robin-hood (how many
    people don't know this reference and would like enlightenment?).
    
    Richard

Better than the magic roundabouts, would be a scheme where you have a large
turntable with little turntables on it's perimiter. People drive their car
onto the little turntable on the main turntable. The little turntable turns
round, so that they face the right way. then the whole turntable turns round,
and stops at each exit, letting people off.

Either that or rigidly enforce speed limit on roundabouts. I myself go too
fast around roundabouts. The Reading Roundabout in Basingstoke is one of the
worst for intimidation.

Mark.

>>        <<< Note 1038.30 by VANTEN::MITCHELLD "23=>42|skate=>Answer" >>>
>>                           -< left and right bends >-

>>If a chicane was place in the middle of the straights or
>>the feedeer road was at awkward angle it would slow Gti's down.
Speed bumps would mean I couldnt even get in to town. The 23 will
>never visit DEC park cos of these anti-sports car devices. 
>>	TVR S2 have even less clearance!
>>
    The one's in DP are bad, the ones in viables are worse!.
    
    However, They don't have to be that severe!,  the one's in the road I
    mentioned are quite wide and slope gently, more like going up a drive
    and down again. also have you seen the ones approaching the severn
    bridge from Wales?, these are just 'tarmac ridges' but do a very
    effective job as there are many, and the distance between them gets
    shorter.
    
    
    Richard

They sometimes engineer approaches to roundabouts, giving them an awkward 
dog's leg approach specifically to slow down traffic before it hits the
roundabouts.  From what I hear, these tend to cause more accidents than they
prevent.  Large speed humps (like the ones in Queen's house and on some roads
in Reading) would work, but I wouldn't like to see them. My car can only clear
the Queen's house ones by travelling as slowly as possible (< 5mph), even then
I scrapped the label off my new stainless exhaust box...

Dave

    RE the bumps of the Wales side of the Severn Bridge - they're awful.
    I know at least one person who complains each time we go over them 
    about loosing an exhust on them once.....
    
    Helen Helen.

    
    Re: .28
    
    the reduction of speed at the Mulsanne is relative :-)

    RE: .10 .20 etc.
    
    As foreigner I had no problems with the "funny" roundabout at Hemel
    Hempstead. In the very first week, I ever drove in the UK (Feb '78)
    I had to pass it. No sweat!
    At those days it was a tourist attraction: There was a fish & chips
    bar nearby.
    
    Roundabouts help foreigners to keeps themselves on the "right" left
    side!
    
    Hans

    re .27 The road you are thinking of is Long Barn Lane.