Conference terri::cars_uk

I don't know the exact regulations.  You are correct, dim dips were introduced
in early 87.  All cars registered after April of 87 had to have dim dips.  Of 
course, this included kits registered.  However, after about 3 or 4 months, 
the legislation was dropped.  Apparently Britain jumped the gun on a European
directive and go its wrists slapped.  I'm not sure if it has been reintroduced.

Dave

    They're still building all new cars to that spec!. (even the ones
    imported).
    
    Richard

    I am surer on rear lights than fronts, so I will start there.
    
    You must have a rear marker light, a brake light, a reflector and
    a turn indicator each side, of specific sizes and powers. The rear
    marker and brake light may be combined in a two filament bulb, and
    must be red. The reflector must also be red, and the turn indicator
    must be amber. There are regulations as to how far from the side
    of the car and how high they may be mounted. Additionally there
    must be at least one high intensity rear lamp for use in fog etc.
    This may be included in the cluster, but if it is it may not be
    closer than (I think) 100mm (about 4" in English) from the brake
    light. Some manufacturers (Sierras, for instance) combine the rear
    marker and the fog lamps, and mount the brake lamp 100mm away -
    this separates the brake and rear markers to make it more obvious
    that some stopping is going on. I believe that reversing lamps are
    still optional.
    
    At the front, sidelights, and headlights must be fitted, at defined
    distances from the side (hence the remounting of the headlights
    on Landies some years ago) and between 2' and 3'6" from the deck
    (they might have metricated those). The dip beams must not dazzle
    someone a defined distance away at a defined height (can't remeber
    the figures). The dim-dip must come into play whilst the car is
    in motion; thus on my BX, if I try to drive on sidelights, the
    dim-dipped heads automatically cut in. You also need amber indicators
    at the front. Other lights are optional, but if beams are fitted
    below 2', they may only be used in fog or falling snow. Movable
    lights, like those sometimes mounted on roofs, may not be used on
    a moving vehicle.
    
    Unless, of course, you know better - all the above strictly from
    memory - E&OE.
    
    Steve

Some useful info here, thanks.  The lights business is more complex than I
thought, which leads me to think other areas are going to be equally full of
bureaucracy.  I assume I can find all the info in "Construction and Use"
regulations; any ideas where I can find these though?

In case you're interested, I want to know all this 'cos I intend building a car
(specifically, a Moss Roadster).  The only thing stopping me is I have nowhere
to build it.  If anyone has a garage I could rent for a few months, please let
me know!!

Ta, Scott.

Also, if you only have one foglight, it must be located at the RHS of the
car if it's a country where you drive on the left. This begs the question,
if I have a car with only one foglight, is is legal to use the foglight 
when I'm driving in a country where they drive on the other side of the road?

	Craig.

Re: .4

> Some useful info here, thanks.  The lights business is more complex than I
> thought, which leads me to think other areas are going to be equally full of
> bureaucracy.  I assume I can find all the info in "Construction and Use"
> regulations; any ideas where I can find these though?

You actually need the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations.  There may also be
some parts of the C&U Regs that apply to lights.

The reference section on Reading Public Library has a large volume on road
traffic law that includes all the relevant acts and regulations and also
comments on cases that have gone to the higher courts.  The title is of
the form "Xxxxxx on Road Traffic" (I can't remember what Xxxxxx is though).

jb

    When I recently fitted a Fog light to the back of my old VW, I had to 
    buy an "accessory kit" which comprised of a relay, wires, switch
    connectors etc, and an instruction leaflet saying exactly where, and
    how far apart, and how bright,high, colour etc. the lights should be
    installed on the car.
    You can get the kits in Halfords in a small blue and yellow box next to
    the accessory spot lights etc.
    I will see if I have thrown mine away tonite!
    
    Carl.
    

    Do you seriously mean that your car is 1'11" or less high?
    
    Why do you think Caterham 7s et al have the lights in pods mounted
    on top of the mudguards (atleast, I think they are...)
    
    Steve

    
 re -1 >>   Do you seriously mean that your car is 1'11" or less high?
    
         yes  - (the roll bar is a bit higher though! :-) )

    So mount them on the roll bar! :-)

    
    Aren't headlights supposed to be at the front of the car - rather than
    2/3rds along its length: :-) - or maybe the rules don't actually state
    that!
    
    ELaine :-)

    Well, they have to _point_ forwards, but I dont remember any rules
    about how far from the front they have to be.
    
    There are plenty of cars with pop-up lights, which are a foot or
    so from the front, and I seem to recall an Italian show special
    some years back which had the lights behind the driver (it was some
    kind of Barchetta or summat.
    
    Steve

    I think you will find that in that case you have to have "marker
    lights" or side lights within certain distances of each corner of the
    car.
    

    Aside to the Mitchells........
    
    Beware. If your vehicles headlights are below the 2' mark, sooner or
    later you will get stopped and nicked. The traffic cops are very hot on
    knowing the rules, and I have personal experience of a car that was
    illegal this way.
    
    And it doesn't have to be dark.....
    
    JohnK
    
    p.s. Are you sure you've put the kit on the right chassis and
    suspension?

I think most policemen don't have a clue about the Construction and Use
regulations.  I've been around Kit Cars for the last 3 1/2 years and I've never 
heard of anyone being nicked.  The only traffic cop I know backs me up on this.
If you want to know most of the relevent details, see the RAC handbook, there's 
a section in the front of that.

Dave

    
    As an aside to this  - if the rules say that the lights should be a
    certain height above the road, how come the car has an MOT, and
    (probably more relevant) passed the inspections necessary before it
    could be registered?
    
    Elaine
    

    
   Pah! MOT
    
    At Sandown Park last year two cars from the Marcos Club were initially
    disqualified from taking in part in the concourse. One because it
    had no front number plate and the other because the wheels were
    extending outside the bodywork (when viewed from above). Both these
    cars had current (and past) MOTs.
    
    What does that tell you?
    
    Mark

    
    the people at Sandown are pernickerty ?

    
    Maybe, but they are also right!
    
    BTW the car without the number plate had one made up and won best
    car at the show!
    
    Mark

It tells me what I already know.  There are two sets of rules here, (1) the 
construction and use regulations and (2) the MOT testing criteria.  The 
construction and use regulations specify how a car must be built in order to 
be comply with current vehicle law.  The MOT is a set of safety checks that is 
at least 3 years out of date.  The MOT may reflect the construction and use 
regulations (eg where the car was registered post front seat belts those belts
will be checked).  However, there are some things that are not covered by an
MOT, such as the edges of the wheels protruding past the bodywork.  
Additionally, some MOT'ers are more thorough than others (there is scope for
opinion and interpretation), I think that there is a general section of the 
MOT that they can use to fail strange cars (I'll look at my MOT test form 
and find out).

As far as lights go, they are testing for alignment not positioning and, as long
as their test equipement will do the job (ie go low enough) then they'll pass 
the car.

Other countries require an engineer's inspection before allowing a kit to become
registered (such as Australia).  However, engineers often demand a high price 
for this and this puts up the cost of a kit.  In this country, for now, the
Government (and the insurance companies) trust the kit builder.  One critisism 
that has been leveled at some kit companies is that they have produced designs 
that plain don't meet the Construction and Use Regulations.  "STATUS" is a body
that a lot of kit makers belong to and one of its aims is to spread the word, so
if you have any questions, maybe ringing STATUS is a good plan ('phone number in
the kit magazines).  Some owner's clubs (eg Marlin) have a designated C&U expert
who you can 'phone.

Of course, if you manage to retain the donor's registration, then the C&U regs
for its year of registration will apply.  

Dave

    Getting back to the original point of this note...
    I went into the library at lunchtime, and found a book with a precis of
    the C&U and lighting regs (I couldn't find the regs themsleves), and
    there are so many bizarre rules, I estimate the majority of cars break
    the law in some way, and as for kit cars...
    
    Among the more interesting points on lights were (accuracy not
    guaranteed - this is all from memory):
    - "Side lights" are officially called "front position lights" and must be
      within 400mm of the edge of the car (no I won't give the three page
      definition of "the edge of the car") and within a certain height range.
    - Rear lights must include indicator, brake and tail light and must be:
      - not more than 400mm from edge of car
      - lights on one side not nearer than 500mm to lights on other side,
        unless the car is less than 1400mm wide
      - minimum height from ground 350mm, maximum 1200mm, unless the car
        has no suitable mounting point in this range (NB might this apply
        to the Noble's headlights?)
      - rear reflector must be mounted vertically and mustn't be triangular
    - Dim/dip or "running lights" to be 10-20% of headlight brightness
        (unless this is not practicable)
    - Dim/dip to be on whenever engine is on (or "key is in the on position")
    - From late 1990 cars must have "marker lights" at each corner; doesn't
      specify whether tail and sidelights can serve a dual purpose.
    - All cars must have a side mounted indicator within 2600mm of the front
                                                                     
    The main thing to note is that virtually every rule has exclusions,
    exceptions and special cases so as long as you have the right number of
    lights at the right end of the car you can probably get away with it.
    
    I'm still unsure about the dim/dip business.  If the origianl rule was
    invoked, it has definitely now been reinstated.  The rule implies the car
    must have front lights on all the time, yet I do not see lights on cars
    during the day.  Anyone with a new-ish (April 1987 ->) car who can say
    whether their lights automatically come on when they start the car
    (even if the headlight switch is off) please let me know!
    
    Scott "I assure you it's legal officer".

    I'm sure our 1989 Maestro efi has NO lights on, unless you specifically
    switch them on.
    
    ELaine

Also, if you do fit dim dips into a wiring circuit not intended for them, don't
buy the cheap version that heats up during use...

	Re. New-ish, post April 1987 cars....

	Well my 200SX is 7 weeks old so I guess that's new-ish and the
	lights definetely don't come on unless specifically ordered to.

	I would be interested to hear of any car that has this 'feature'.
	The neighbour's got a new Volvo 740 and his lights don't automatically
	come on, mind you he is an auto-electrician by trade...


	Gordon

    Re -1.......
    
    
        As aSAAB driver of 6 years I got used to being regailed by others
    who thought I had left my lights on during the day. Of course Swedish
    law says Daylights are required in Sweden so you can have them in
    the UK. The manual did tell you which fuse to extract if you didn't
    want them on!
    
    But ........ it would seem that Current models don't have daylights
    in the UK. I can't believe that EVERY driver of a G reg SAAB has
    taken the fuse out. But the same doesn't seem to apply to Volvo's
    as they still wire them up.

I've done what I should have done in the first place; found a new car (my mum's;
I didn't break into one!) and played with the lights to see what happens, so:

With the ignition off:
Turn on sidelight switch: sidelights come on
Turn on headlight switch: nothing else happens

With the ignition on:
Turn on sidelight switch: sidelights and dim headlights come on
Turn on headlight switch: headlights come on

I don't see that a special (ie costs money) dim/dip unit is necessary.  The
wiring can be arranged so that the headlight bulbs are in series (ie 6 volts
across each, hence quarter power) when the sidelights and ignition are on.  Can
anyone think of a good reason why this shouldn't be done?

Scott "headlamps with candles in them are best"

    re .29, sticking them in series means if one filament blows you loose
    both lights, illegal!. Most systems use a resistor switched in/out by
    relays.
    
    re your configuration, mine's similar except...
	With the ignition off:
	Turn on sidelight switch: sidelights come on
	Turn on headlight switch: headlights come on   <<<<<
	Turn OFF sidelight switch: NO lights
	
	With the ignition on:
	Turn on sidelight switch: sidelights and dim headlights come on
	Turn on headlight switch: headlights come on
	Turn OFF sidelight switch: NO lights
    
    Richard	

    
    Mine's much simpler :-)
    
	With the ignition off:
    
	Turn on sidelight switch: sidelights come on
	Turn on headlight switch: headlights come on
	
	With the ignition on:
    
	Turn on sidelight switch: sidelights come on
	Turn on headlight switch: headlights come on
    

OK, so if one filament blows, just switch the headlights on proper (ie wired in
parallel, 12v each) and at least one will work.  I don't usually drive on
sidelights anyway.  If course, I am sure all readers of this conference carry
spare bulbs with them just in case...

Regarding using a resistor to dim the lights, this is fine except it wastes
power, the resistor dissipating heat.  This isn't so much a problem these days,
but I used to own a car where it was very hard to keep the battery charged up!

You mention relays; are car lights generally switched by relays, the dashboard
switches carrying low current to activate these relays?  I see no problem with
using higher-rated dash switches and connecting these directly to the lights.
It's only 12v after all; I might think again if it was higher!

By the way, I'm still looking for a garage; there must be someone with a burning
desire to let me build a car in theirs?  I'll even let you help build it...

Scott "don't touch the dashboard - it's live"

    
>>   <<< Note 934.32 by YORICK::MARSHALL "Scott "Wanted: Garage to rent"" >>>
                      -< The next gripping instalment... >-
    
>> OK, so if one filament blows, just switch the headlights on proper (ie wired in
>> parallel, 12v each) and at least one will work.  
    
    The idea is to use them in POOR visibility, not when headlamps are
    necessarilly needed but when more than sidelights are needed. How would
    you know it's gone in these circumstances??.
    
    
>>Regarding using a resistor to dim the lights, this is fine except it wastes
>>power, the resistor dissipating heat.
    
    Should end up using about the same power as if the lights are on full,
    the law was designed to prevent anybody driving deliberately on
    sidelights, not save electricity.
    
    >>  This isn't so much a problem these days,but I used to own a car 
    >>  where it was very hard to keep the battery charged up!
    
    Fix this first, then fit DD :-)
    
>>You mention relays; are car lights generally switched by relays, the dashboard
>>switches carrying low current to activate these relays?  I see no problem with
>>using higher-rated dash switches and connecting these directly to the lights.
>>It's only 12v after all; I might think again if it was higher!

    Not necessarilly, though many modern manufacturers do. There is a
    certain amount of 'logic' involved in achieving dim dip, it easier to
    do it with relays rather than modify the switch fitted as standard in
    the rest of the world. Also it's not the volts at the dash, it's the
    amps. you need meaty contacts to drive a decent set of headlights
    without burning up, and the switch mechanism can be smaller and lighter
    if it's only carrying 'control' current.
    
    Richard

when i was building my kit car, my suppliers told me that the
headlamps had to be dim-dipped when the engine was running, not
just when the ignition was on and i believe my ford sierra works
that way - ie the engine has to be turning before the dim-dip
works.

Incidently i never got round to wiring up the kit for dim-dip
and have never had any problems with MOTs or the law.

cheers
kevin

    Well several cars I've seen recently, (New Cavalier, New BX, New 405)
    have them come on with ignition, irrelevant whether engine running. 
    (Actually it'd be pretty difficult to have them NOT on with the engine
    running then :-) )
    
    So it looks like different interpretations again, e.g. law says whilst
    engine running, interpretation ONLY when running not when stopped.
    
    Richard

The law does actually say the following:
When the sidelights are on, and the engine is on or the key/switch is in the
position in which the engine could be on, then the dim/dip must be on.
(Or words to that effect).
So even if the engine isn't running, if the ignition is on the dim/dip must be
on.  To my mind, it seems easier to arrange this than to worry about whether the
engine is turning over.

Another slant to the argument.  The dim/dip applies to cars registered in
England since April 1987.  My brother has a 1969 car, imported to the UK last
year (1989) and registered in England then.  It was given a 1969 registration
(ie XXX XXX G), and thus didn't need dim/dip to be legal.  Perhaps more
significant, it still has the American rear indicators (ie red brake lights
flash, instead of separate orange lights), and has passed an English MOT with
these, which are DEFINITELY illegal (any suggestions why they might be legal?)

I recently read an article in which a 1938 car had been restored, but although
British registered already, needed to have the lights changed to comply with
current legislation before it could legally be used.

So it appears the law is a complete shambles and waste of time!

Kit cars are given Q plates (ie of indeterminate age), so how can it be decided
which legislation should apply to them?  I was in one recently which although
only 6 years old, had no seatbelts at all; the builder had convinced the LVLO
it was only a "minor modification" to the donor, a 1963 Triumph Vitesse, so
didn't need to conform to new legislation!

Scott.

Kits must adhere to the rules in force on the date of registration.  The 
fact that they always get a Q registration prefix does not make any difference.
[aside: will it swap to a Q suffix when the lettering system wraps around?].  
Mine was registered in August 1987, it must adhere to the legislation in force 
then.

The rules say that you may retain the donor registration if there is more than
60% of the original donor in the kit.  How technical your registration authority
is will dictate how much you can get away with.  When the inspector inspected 
mine it was only half built and she wouldn't have known that there wasn't 60% of 
the donor in it.  Hands up all of you who think Cortinas have chassis!  I know
of several Marlin Berlinettas without a Q registration.

So, you can get away with it.  Another dodge I've heard of is to register 
successive changes to the original car.  Colour, engine, seating and so on.  By
the time you've built your kit, you'll have changed everything.  However, if 
you have an accident and try and claim some insurance money, you may get 
found out and, as insurance companies don't pay up unless they have to, you 
may lose out.

I know of someone who got an MG TF through its MOT even though it had no 
signalling light visible to the driver for its indicators.  He pointed out that
the charge indication dial flickered every time the indicator came on...

Dave