Conference terri::cars_uk

    Following Top Gear's reviews of the R19 and Rover cabrios and with the
    warmer days ahead, I've been wondering about the practicalities of
    getting a Cabrio.
    
    I'd be interested in comments from anyone who owns/drives a rag top.
    What are they like through the Winter, what about security ?
    
    The models that would interest me would be the 130bhp escort, R19 cab
    (Looks real smart with no roll-bar). These retail currently at around
    �17k. A bargain Cabrio would be the Golf Clipper at �12k.
    
    Roy

    Roy
    
    Had my Escort XR3i (old model) 18 months now and my comments on the
    soft top:
    
    - poor rear & side visibility
    - occasional slight leaks where the windows join the roof - only seems
    to happen in the car wash though  ;-)
    - bit noisy over 70, but otherwise surprisingly quiet
    
    security
    - I always use a Krooklok, would've preferred a handbrake lock but it
    don't fit over the gear-lever
    - vandalism is a risk - mine's been used as an ashtray resulting in a
    slight blister
    
    things to look for:
    - electric roof; manual roof's OK but a bit of a pain 
    - heated rear window
    - make sure the tonneau cover fits - mine appears to be for a different
    model
    
    
    Apart from the fact that I'm fed up with the Escort mechanically (duff
    battery, poor starting, door catch falling off and a persistent door
    rattle), it's a fun fair-weather car.
    
    Next car - probably a Renault 19 16v - with sun-roof!
    
    Sue

    Thanks Sue,
    
    Your note provides very useful feedback.
    
    Roy

    Here is my view of the Golf GTI Cabriolet, which I've had for 2 years:-
    
    - poor rear & side visibility (especially rear visibility when parking
      with the top down)
    - no leaks except when heavy snow was lying on the car (NB I've never
      tried going through a car wash)
    - bit noisy over 70, but otherwise surprisingly quiet
    
    security
    - I have an alarm & removable radio-cassette.  It was broken into once
    when I had got lazy and left the alarm off and the radio in!  Since then
    I've always put the alarm on and taken the radio out & it's been fine.
    - no problem with vandalism, even in the year it spent on the road in
    Cemetery Junction area
    
    I disagree with -2 about electric roof - manual roof can be raised or
    lowered in about 10 seconds by 2 people & 40 seconds by 1 person
    ( I haven't timed it, but that's what if feels like)

    things to look for:
    - heated rear window

    Overall a great car, which I am selling, not because I want to get rid
    of it, but because I need the money!

    I don't know whether these are differences between Escort & Golf
    Cabriolet, or just different opinions of very similar cars!
    
    Carol.

    One more tiny piece of info: as far as I know from my usual sources 
    the BMW Z3 roadster is a pure US product targetting the US market. It 
    has been designed by BMW USA (Virginia ?) and will be built there. 

	BMW have their business heads screwed on.  We're not talking
	about British Leyland who were trying to build two "sports"
	cars, the TR7 and MGB at the same time.  Managing to cancel
	first one and then the other before resurecting them with different
	plans.

	The MG Owners' Club was worried that BMW buying Rover would
	stop the new MG (which they had lobbied hard for for years).  They
	were, apparently, invited to a presentation by BMW which basically
	told them that the new MG was one of the reasons for buying
	Rover in the first place.

	Dave

    
    �  -< BMW know what they're doing >-
    
    One would hope so, but, if they are selling the Z3 and F for almost
    identical money in the same markets, I would have to wonder :^)  
    
    Patrick's comment makes a lot of sense, but doesn't tie in with the 
    earlier note that implies the Z3 will be in a position to affect F
    sales (unless the F is to be sold in the US too?).
    
    Mark

The new BMW plant is in Spartanburg, South Carolina, about 3 hours north of
Atlanta and 1 hour south of Charlotte, NC.

Michelin also has a large office building nearby in Greenville, SC, about 15-20
miles south of Spartanburg.

Dave

                                                                      
    I was out looking at the FIAT Barchetta and the Alpha  Spider at the
    weekend, the FIAT was 142,000 FFR (about 18205 Sterling) the Spider
    was 22051 Sterling, (172k FFr). The FIAT had electric windows & arial,
    Airbag and air conditioning, didn't look too closely at the Spider as
    its really ugly. The Alpha coupe based on the Spider (or visa versa) is
    however very pretty, the extra hard top fits the lines very well and
    the whole car looks really nice, however it was 204k (26153 Sterling)
    so thats out, it did have the required extra 2 seats though. 
    Now for the link to the MG, is the MG a 2+2 or only a 2 seater and how
    much is it ?. Getting a new MG would be nice, especially if I can get 4
    in it, it would be a new car, therefore I shouldn't have reliability
    problems and it should be cheaper to run than an older car. 
    I'm looking for a 'sporty' cabrio but it must have 4 seats as i've 2 kids,
    a 3 year old and a 1 year old.  
    
    options seem to be;
    
    Barchetta - 18k - looks nice, its new & uncommon, but what about the kids
    Golf      - ??  - looks ok but I've had one before - kids fit.
    Audi      - ??  - like the looks, kids fit, but Princess Di factor puts
    		      me off
    944       - Sold the last one for 17k (3 years old), kids fit but I've 
                had one before
    911       - 18k gets me a possible 5-7 year old - kids fit - expensive
    		to run ?
    Mondial   - 25K gets an 84, kids fit - very expensive to run but
                classic insurance keeps costs down and it shouldn't lose
                value
    BMW/Peugot- too common/ too naff
    Jag/Merc  - Too BIG or and too expensive.	
                                             
    Any one have any other alternatives ?
    

    FIAT Coup� - 19K - looks wonderful, new & uncommon, kids fit. Turbo lag.
    
    VTEC Prelude - 22K - Worth it for the engine alone. 8�K Red line brum
    		brum. Kids may be a tight fit.

    
    MG is STRICTLY a two seater, like the Barchetta.
    
    Out of your list, on looks alone, I'd go for the Audi - a lovely
    looking car, I think. Princess Di factor? She drives a Mercs doesn't
    she?
    
    Peugeot looks good too, roof up or down - Pinnifarina designed?
    
    You'll only get 'affordable' insurance on a Mondial if you use it
    rarely. Daily driving will almost certainly exempt you from that route.
    Parts and Labour will be horrible (I've considered a 400 once or twice,
    but it's always remained a dream...). 
    
    What about an all white Ford Escort Cabrio? :^)
    
    Mark
    
    PS I'm far from convinced that new cars are cheaper to run than older
    ones - if something goes wrong, you're probably right, but main dealer
    servicing (which affects resale value) isn't cheap or, neccesarily,
    good!.
    
    PPS - Add cost of can opener to Fiat Coup� and Prelude :^)
    
    

    
    re:.67
    
    If the Barchetta is a small coupe convertible thing that has a sort of
    back end from the new Fiat Coupe then it looks incredible.  Saw one
    last week in Brussels and it looked superb - never seen one before, it
    was getting lots of admiring looks from everybody who walked past it.
    
    Chris.

    
    Maybe we should continue this general Cabrio stuuf in its own
    note....perhaps the moderators could oblige? Anyway, I have a similar
    problem with my 5 year old BMW Cabrio.....it suddenly got too small
    back last October with the arrival our third offsprung 8-).
    
    	I've checked around but can't find any European built Cabrio's
    which are built to sit 5 people. Whilst I've seen people squashing 5
    into an Escort or Golf, I don't think they have seat belts extra for 3
    in the back.
    
    	I've already looked at and discounted the....
    
    BMW 3xx
    Merc 3xx
    Audi
    Golf
    Escort
    Peugot
    Rover
    Saab 9xxx
    
       all of which are only 4 seaters......things don't look too good do
    they. Are there any current US cabrio's built for 5? If I can't find a
    5 seater I'll stick with my BM for another 5 years as its a great car
    & I've had no problems whatsoever.
    
    JBG
    

    Just as I was trying to "answer" this string of notes they got moved -
    I thought I was cracking up 'cause every time I exited the editor it
    showed this note but then when I wanted to answer it I was given a
    reply about 6 back. Anyway...
    
    Young kids in a Cabrio with the top down always make me nervous - if
    something did happen to the car etc. I prefer that everyone had a
    reasonable "cage" around them! Plus you know how kids find it very
    difficult to sit still which could well be a nightmare...
    
    I was following a cabrio [with its top down] last year with 3 young
    kids in the back on Route du Parc [so they were travelling at a fair
    speed] - I pulled right back from them because I could see that none of
    them were strapped in and they weren't exactly being good! I didn't
    feel comfortable at all being behind them! 

    �Just as I was trying to "answer" this string of notes they got moved -
    
    Apologies Dave for the confusion while I moved the notestring
    
    Royston

    
    I'm surprised the Merc 300 doesn't have 3 seatbelts at the back, as I
    would have thought this would have been the best bet for you as its
    almost a 'full' blown saloon/cabrio, best bet assuming you've loadsa
    cash that is. what about the Bently Azur I think thats got 3 seat
    belts, then again if you can afford one why not get 2 one for you/wife 
    and one for the kids. 
    Seriously though, What about Jeeps, or 4x4's, surely some of them
    would fit 5 and come in soft top variants, the Land Rover Safari fits 9 
    I think and comes with a soft top option, it also comes with rifle mounts
    and sand ladders should the High Street in Kensington get really rough.  
    
    I would also agree with Dave that really young kids in the back would
    be a bit iffy, I wouldn't expect any kid under about 3 to sit in the
    back and they would only get in then for 'slow' Sunday afternoon jaunts
    down to the River/Beach/Pub no long distance or Motorway runs. Anyone
    who has kids in the back that are not strapped in, regardless of wether
    or not the car has a roof should be taken away and have the shit kicked
    out of them. 
    
    Is the Calibra available as a soft top ? that should be big enough and
    it certainly would look nice.
    
     

    
    Thanks for moving this stuff Roy.
    
    Dave,
    
    	Parents who allow their young kids in the back of any car without
    seat belts are taking a big risk. Mine always wear their belts & I've
    had no problems. I have heard of fatal incidents with adults being
    thrown from cabrios when a seat belt would have saved them.
    
    	As far as having a protective cage around you making you feel safer
    I'm not convinced that it really helps......a hard enough shunt is
    going to trap you in your protective cage. 
    
    JBG

    
    Re .22
    
    ....oh yes, I forgot the Bentley.....not my style 8-).
    
    I'm pretty sure the Merc has only two places in the rear & no middle
    belt. I would consider a 4x4 if a) its capable of towing heavy loads
    (ie. up to at least 3 ton) and b) it has to be a comfortable motorway
    cruiser - the wife has a 3litre Pajero (Shogun) (the one I trashed the
    dirvers door of last week 8-) so if we decided on an open top 4x4 it
    would have to replace that, although I'm not sure I'd be so happy with
    a "top heavy" cabrio. My BM sticks to the road like glue when its
    dry.....ok, on snow & ice its a case of Torvill & Dean eat your hearts
    out 8-)
    
    JBG
    
    ....still open to ideas....I'm in no hurry to give up my BM. 

XJS?  Mind you, most of them have probably got rear bucket seats...

re: .17

>Are there any current US cabrio's built for 5?

I believe that Oldsmobile has a true 5 seater convertible.  I'm not sure if it's
the Cutlass or some other model, but it has a roll hoop behind the front seats
and comes with some size V6, probably a 3.8 or something.  It's fwd and I see
quite a lot of them around Atlanta.

Of course, our '24 Studebaker is a 5 passenger convertible, but it appears you
require something a bit newer...

Dave

    
    re XJS
    
    You couldn't get one adult in the back of an XJS. Doesn't even have
    real seats, just a six inch wide bench. Not that much room in the
    front either!
    
    Richard.
    
    

    
    The XJS has a lockable box instead of a back seat, as does the new Alfa
    Spider.
    What about some off these companies that take ordinairy saloons and 
    chop the top off, like Baur used to do for the BMW 323, I'd always
    fancied a soft top Capri, that would look nice, especially if it was
    an all white one like the escort.
                                                            
    
    PS
    The all white option is a joke, the Capri cabrio wasn't. 

    How about:
    
    Saab 900 Convertible (2.0i 2.3i 2.5V6 2.0Turbo)
    Toyota Celica Cabriolet
    BMW 328i Convertible
    Mercedes E320 Cabriolet
    Porsche 968
    
    Clive

    
    
    Toyota Celica Cabriolet - this is surly only a 2+2
    BMW 328i Convertible    - I assume this is what John already has
    Mercedes E320 Cabriolet - Proberbly the most suitable
    Porsche 968             - definatley 2+2'midgets'
    Saab 900 Convertible 
    (2.0i 2.3i 2.5V6 2.0Turbo)- same as the BMW, and should fit 2 adults
    and 3 kids
    
    I actually like the Audi Coupe convertable, the only thing is it
    doesn't look like a real sports car should, ie E type, MG Midget, Alpha
    Spider etc although all these cars are only 2+2's at best.
    
    

    The BMW 328i convertible gets a good write up in this weeks Autocar & Motor,
    although it was being compared against a TVR Chimera 4 litre. I doubt
    if this is a fair comparison for either car.
    
    The BMW wins on practicality (4 seats - the article says its cramped
    for 2 adults in the back), ride, handling, noise levels, luggage space
    and fuel consumption.
    
    The TVR wins on looks, acceleration, top-speed and engine noise (?!). 
    I would add to this re-sale value, individuality (you have multiple 
    options for interior trim and colour) and pose-value.
    
    Barry.

    
>>>    The TVR wins on looks, acceleration, top-speed and engine noise (?!). 
    
    ... it sounds like an engine in a sports car should do !
    
    G.

    
    But the BMW's a convertible saloon - bloody silly comparison really,
    execpt, possibly on price.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Barry, did you buy the RX7?

    
    I remember CAR comparing a Testarossq and the BMW M5 once with the
    M5 coming out as the best car but they stated that why would anyone buy
    the M5 if they could have a poorer Testarossa
    

    How about the Maserati BiTurbo (Or whatever they call it these days).
    On the upside, it's italian, good looks, 2+2 seating, uncommon. On the
    downside it seems to suffer with high depreciation (Spyder less so !)
    and has relatively high servicing & running costs.
    
    There's a garage in Lyndhurst, New Forest, Hants that culd give an idea
    of prices.
    
    Rgds
    Chris.

    
    The Maser man here in Munich told me you need a bike as well if you buy 
    a Maserati.
    
    He said 'They can NEVER be cheap enough to consider buying one!'
    
    Mark

    
    Well following on from before, I am now in the market for a new (or not
    so new) car. It will only get used about twice a year and then for
    about a month at a go, I've been thinking about whether to get a new
    car (reliable) or an older one (cheap) and I'm seriously thinking about
    getting a mark I Capri or a mark III Cortina or other 70's car and having 
    the roof taken off (it'll never get used in the rain hopefully). 
    
    What would I need to do ? 
    
    Would I need a 2 door or if a 4 door should I get the rear doors
    welded shut, can I just saw off everything above shoulder height, and
    have the rough edges rounded off ? I guess i'd better go for vinyl
    seats incase I get caught in a shower. anybody done something simular ?
    
    All advise welcome. 
    

    re .35

    You would almost certainly need to strengthen the floor pan, otherwise
    the car will sag in the middle. You'll also have a problem with the
    seat belt fixings. Even if you leave enough of the middle pillar to
    keep the fixing I doubt if it would be strong enough. What about the
    window frames for the doors ? You could remove them if you removed the
    glass as well.
    
    I believe there are companies around that do this kind of work, so the
    problems shouldn't be insuperable .

    Andrew

    
    Seat belts shouldn't be a problem as I could move then down onto the 
    top of the main body behind the door, assuming I get a 2 door variant.
    Also I'm not sure that seat belts are compulsary, a) on such an old car
    or b) at all. although I would still need seat belts in the back for
    the kids
     
    The saging seems to be a major problem though.
    

    
    You should be able to find a convertible MKII Cortina or MKI Capri but
    they don't come cheap. If you buy a Cortina or Capri and then have the
    work done (or do it yourself) you'll probably devalue the car as well -
    there aren't that many of them around.
    
    There are several 'convertible' kits around which are based on more
    modern running gear, where the donor vehicle may well work out to be
    much cheaper - one based on a MKII/III Capri springs to mind.
    
    Graham

    Crayford made a number of Convertibles based on "popular" Fords. Some
    where stronger than the originals.
    I can look up the details of the Owners Club if your interested.
    
    Richard Huntley

    
    The car is going to be situated in Barbados so I don't want to buy in the 
    UK and export (100% import duty), thats also why prices of new cars are 
    very high. Doner cars aren't a problem as most of the cars on the roads 
    seem to be from the 70's, loss of value also doesn't matter as its
    going to be worth about 300 quid in the first place, its used instead of
    renting every time we go out there. The last hire car I had out there
    was a mini moke without a roof and no side doors or windows and if it
    rained everything was dry 30 minutes afterwards.
    
    would welding the doors shut help the sagging problem ? I saw 2 or 3
    Austin allegro's when I was there last, I would presume taking the roof
    off of 1 of those would have serious results !!.
    
    If you could post the owners club phone number I could call and see if
    they have any usefull hints.
    
    Thanks
    Garry.
    

    The Crayford Convertible Car Club
    "To promote interest in cars converted by Crayford"
    SAE to:
    Rory Cronin
    68 Manor Road
    Worthing 
    West Sussex
    BN11 4SL
    
    Or:
    The Convertible Club
    "For all types of open top vehicles old & new, British or Foreign with
    the aim of promoting interest in use and preservation"
    SAE to:
    P.O.Box 2079
    Redditch
    Worcester
    B98 8SA
    
    Sorry no phone numbers but hope these help.
    
    Richard Huntley