Conference terri::cars_uk

    Re.
    
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Note 561.240                    NOBLE / LOTUS 23                      240 of 240
VANTEN::MITCHELLD "I dont brake for Westfields!"     29 lines   5-APR-1991 11:22
                           -< Update on the repairs >-
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�
�	With all the welding needing doing on 23 and the Landy
�	Welding kit was finally purchased. This should make things a lot easier
�	and reduce some of the amount of work producing the special thingies the
�	23 needs.	
�	
	 
    Derek, can you tell me (us) what Welding Kit you bought ?
    
    Also, do you have any welding experience ?
    
    
    Reason I ask is that I expect to buy a kit too in the not-too-distant
    future.  I have asked a friend (who welds/paints for a living) and
    his main comments were :-
    
    	With MIG, you will be able to weld 'within a week'.
    	After a number of years, your welding skills (with MIG)
    	will not be that much better - although neater.
    
    	With Gas, it takes much longer to learn the skills.
    	When getting it wrong, you will make a mess of the work.
    	With time, the quality and strength of your welding will
    	improve 'continuously'.
    
    He did not mention use of Arc welding (is that what Argos sell ?).
    
    One other point with Gas is that the bottles are only 'loaned'
    (from BOC or some such organisation), you do not own them.
    You then get refills (or exchange for full bottles) and pay
    for this service.  I think this is only a 'technicality', but
    it has been mentioned in the past.
    
    J.R.
    
    PS - a couple of other replies under note 69.*

    
    We bought a MIG set, I can't remember the make, but it is _not_ one of
    the cheap ones aimed at the hobby market. With these things it is very
    much a case of you get what you pay for. We spent quite a lot of time 
    talking to people who know before we decided on what to get. (Ours cost 
    about �350 + VAT) (Eigentek's accountant is going to going to throw a 
    wobbly about this..... :-) he wasn't 100% happy about the trailer!)
                                                      
    I did a welding course at Bracknell College last year, and most of the
    work we did was with gas. In general I think your friend is probably
    right as far as the skill level comments go, but I didn't find gas too
    hard to learn, and I prefer it to MIG welding, you seem to have more
    control, (and it's easier to see what you are doing, since you don't
    need such a dark mask). MIG is more convienient for 'home use'. 
        The main problem with the gas set is that I don't think you are
    supposed to keep the gas bottles required in a domestic garage! - ie the 
    equipment is potentially much more dangerous than MIG (with a bottle of
    argon)  The gas bottles are all 'on loan' from BOC, and you have to pay
    quite a large deposit 'up-front'.
    
    Arc welding kit (I think) is really only for heavy duty stuff until you
    have had a lot of practice. 
    
    TIG is only if you've got lot's of money..........

    FYI, Calor Gas fire bottles are also not sold to you, but merely
    loaned (against a hefty deposit) for you to keep the gas in while you
    use it! :^)
    
    Mark
    

    If you can afford it TIG is just the the best, but for general uses
    MIG with 5% argon is the best bet. I have done ally welding with a mig
    on a motorcycle engine case, the result was very acceptable. I have
    also used ARC for heavy jobs but it is harder to make a nice neat job 
    if you try to use it for think sheeting. ARC brasing is just something 
    else. Generally MIGATRONIC make some of the best mig and tig gear but
    its expensive. There are obviously others but that just happens to be
    the make I have used. For general not really high quality but good
    value for money I'm lead to beleive that the CLARKE range on welding 
    equipment is quite good.
    
    
    Garry

    
    Another reason for using bottles rather than the gas cannisters, apart
    from the high cost, is that A) steel welds are cleaner and you get less
    splatter and B) forget ally welding with C02.
    
    Garry

    
    I have used argon for ally and a friend uses shield. The real thing
    about ally is how clean you get it to arc. C02 is far too dirty to even
    think about it. At the cost of ally wire its not worth trying to weld
    and use miles of wire getting nowhere. The last time I bought ally
    wire it was over �10 a kilo. 
    
    
    Going back to the bottles ( hic) , I think we tried to work out what the 
    cost of Co2 cannisters to bottles . I think we worked it out in rough 
    welding time rather than quantity , about 6 or so times longer out of a 
    small bottle which worked out a saving as the refill cost was cheaper 
    that 6 gas cannisters.
    
    
    
    	Garry

    I too am just at this stage re. purchase of MIG welder:
    The model I am interested in is something in the SIP range..
    Perhaps the "Autobody+" range. 
    
    However I have some questions:
    It must be good for thin bodywork
           (I already have oxy/actylene and Arc)
    What is the difference in practice between gas/gassless MIG welding 
    (ie is the gassless type any good?)
    
    Would I be better off with Tig? but are there any DIY sets available and
    at what price?
    
    And finally does anyone know the address for SIP in UK (I want to find
    out from them who their Irish distributors are.
    
    Brian.
    

    Try "Toolwise" in Leicester for the info on SIP
    
    Why do you want MIG and Arc? Don't they achieve the same end goal?
    
    MIG is kind of expensive to run if you stay with the tiny bottles so go
    with a set that you can get a full size bottle regulator for.

    No, I didn't say I could weld 22g steel together, Derek, so why would
    you read that assumption into a a question asked in the interests of
    improving my knowledge?
    
    So having put the question down with a statement you then don't tell me
    whether 22g steel can be joined using MIG techniques. I infer from you
    that it can't be ARC welded......... 

    No offence taken Derek, and I'm sure none was meant. With a conference
    that moves as fast as this one does, sometimes youy can lose track of
    what's being said or going on, so if my timing was out or something you
    said didn't stick, that's an error/shortcoming down to me. Why does
    work keep getting in the way of Noting?....;-)
    
    I have a job gas welding 22g steel.
    
    Give me 12g copper and a stick of silver solder any day of the week!
    Maybe I ought to build my own steam car.........

    Gents,
    
    THank you very much for your comments.....
    
    I have oxy acteylene and find that welds in thin material tend to
    distort quite a lot if both edges to be joined are not exactly parallel
    ==> very close fit needed --> it is excellent for custom exhaust
    construction. 
    
    Brazing is very easy and quite strong BUT cannot be grinded down if you
    wish to preserve the strength of the join. Brazing is extremely
    difficult where there is a joddled joint
    
                             |weld here ?
                     _______ v
    ie  _____________| -------------
                      ^
                      | and here ?
    
    Maybe i'm over welding these type of joints?
    
    As for arc : it's more useful for constructing workbenches than car
    work. 
    
    It's the same old story..
    No matter how many tools/gadgets you have :: you'll never have enough!
    
    Thanx.
    
       Brian.