Conference 7.286::home_work

    Cost is generally proportional to BTU rating.  More BTU's -> more_$.
    I doubt anyone can offer a price without knowing what size burner
    you will be buying.  The rating is usually on a plate on the burner.
    Check Consumer Reports, they may have some suggestions.  I have
    a Burnham America unit.  All I know is that a service man commented 
    about the lack of reliability of the units whose serial numbers start
    with BBC.  I called the president of BA and told him what I heard.
    He asked for the serial number of the unit.  I said "BBC....". 
    He said "That's impossible!"  Apparently there was some legal fracas
    and they are no longer made but my builder was able to find one
    special to install in my new house 3 years ago.  (Thank Yew Mr. Builder!)
    
    Stan

    If the present unit will hang in until spring I would wait.  This
    is not the time of year to purposely be without heat.
    
    If you are in the Merrimack area, I would recommend either Rochette
    Oil in Merrimack or Masi in Nashua.  Talk to Bob Rochette or Mr.
    Masi (Bob Boisivert).  Feel free to use my name in either case.
    I know both of them and feel that they are good people.
    
    If you are into DIY, a neighbor of mine bought a Sears FHA unit
    at a very good price at the Pheasant Lane store.  It was an 'extra'
    unit still in the crate with all the warrantees and service for
    about half price.
    
    A FHA system that also handles hot water?  I have never heard of
    such a thing, but I suppose it is possible.  I doubt if there is
    such a thing today.
    
    	Peter Duke
    

    	There was a house I use to share in Stoneham that used oil and
    heated the house by FHW and also provided hot water.  While it saved
    my landlord lots of money in hot water bills, we would easily run
    out of hot water in the winter since we were competing with the
    house for heat.  Hot water usually lasted 30 seconds.  It might have
    lasted longer if we used an efficient shower head but I couldn't
    convince my roomates to chip in.  
    	Anyways I know the unit was installed in the early eighties.
    Hope this helps %-)
    
    Ron

    I agree with domestic hot water with FHW, mine is.  I questioned
    it with FHA referenced in .0  That seemed to be a strange combination.
    
    
    Pete
    

    There are some new, very high efficiency, FHA units that use an
    ethyl glycol solution with a heat exchanger arrangement. They will
    also provide domestic hot water. The only ones that I have seen
    are gas fired.
    
    Nick

    Yes, it is really, truely, a FHA system that also supplies the hot
    water. I hope they still make them. I don't like the idea of gas,
    and I'm not much interested in having a FHA system and a separate
    water heating system ( don't want to maintain two burners ), and
    I do not want an electric water heater.
    
    Somebody tell me they still make FHA systems that also heat the
    water.
    
    kl

>        I do not want an electric water heater.
 
    Why not? What are the disadvantages?

I went to my in-laws at the cape last weekend.  Turns out they have FHA,
oil, that also heats the household water.

Not that I know anything about them, but they do exist.

    
    Re: .7
    
    >>		I do not want an electric water heater.
    
    >  Why not? What are the disadvantages?
    
    
    	Well, if you live in southern NH, can you spell P-S-N-H?  :-)
    I recently bought a new water heater and the "cost per year" on
    those flame-yellow stickers were around $160+/- (I've forgotten
    the exact number already...) for the gas and around $300-350 for
    the equivalent electric heaters.
    
    							-craig

    Another problem (can't you tell I'm a new homeowner).
    
    I was painting in the kitchen and dining area last nite and noticed
    that every time the furnace starts up I smell fumes in this area.
    
    The furnace is located under the kitchen in the basement.  The
    house is 25 years old, and we are moving in this Saturday.
    
    I am a novice to home maintenance but I suspect that there must
    be somekind of damper that opens when the furnace starts up and
    the exhaust then goes up and out the chimney.  Maybe this is
    not opening.  I will check it out tonite.  Am I on the right
    track or not?  Can anyone one tell me what it looks like and
    location and how to fix?
    
    More info:  This is an oil fired FHA system.

    First question I have is what kind of "fumes".  If it is a musty
    sort of smell, it could be something as simple as a dirty filter
    on the air intake.
    
    If it is really smells like hydrocarbon combustion, then it sounds
    like there might be a hole in the air chamber.  (Most FHA systems
    I have seen use gas, oil, ot hot water to heat an air chamber. 
    The inlet to this chamber is the col air return, and the outlet
    is via the blower motor through the various air vents in the house.)
    If there is a hole, it would allow combustion gasses to entry the
    chamber.
    
    Another possibility would be that you have a clogged flue.  This
    could allow the combustion gasses to back up and leak through any
    small (or large) holes in the pipe from the furnace to the flue.
    The diverted gasses may then be entering the air chamber via the
    cold air intake.  You could check for this by standing in the same
    room as the furnace, and determining if you smell the combustion
    gasses.  If you don't, and the furnace is an older one, it probably
    indicates a hole in the air chamber.
    
    FWIW, my 2� worth.  Hope it helps.
    
    One last thought.  As you probably already know, this should be
    corrected ASAP.  Carbon monoxide is odorless, and nasty stuff to
    fool around with.
    
    - Mark

    1) Check this out asap, might also mean carbon monoxide escaping.
    
    2) There is usually not a damper that opens electrically, but I
    suppose there could be a mechanical damper which is stuck close.
    
    3) Are you painting with oil base paint?  If your ventilation is
    poor, you can get suspended volatile particles circulated through
    your heating system which will c0ome back out with a burnt/fumey
    odor.  (You can even notice this if there is as much as a pilot
    light (stove) in the same room as the paint vapor).
    

>    ... every time the furnace starts up I smell fumes in this area.
>    
>    I am a novice to home maintenance but I suspect that there must
>    be somekind of damper that opens when the furnace starts up and
>    the exhaust then goes up and out the chimney.  Maybe this is
>    not opening.  I will check it out tonite.  Am I on the right
>    track or not?  Can anyone one tell me what it looks like and
>    location and how to fix?
>    
>    More info:  This is an oil fired FHA system.

     When I had this problem, it was a piece of flue liner that had broken 
off and landed right in front of the furnace stovepipe.  The fumes would 
blow out through the stovepipe fittings.

     This is an expensive problem to fix correctly.  First, it means that 
your flue liner is falling apart.  Second, it means that your chimney has 
5 feet of rubble in it from the floor to where the stovepipe fits in.  If 
there is no cleanout in the bottom of the chimney, one should be put in.  
Also a chimney cap.  And the rubble must be disposed of as hazardous waste.

     To see if this is your problem, pull the stovepipe off.  Stick your 
hand down the chimney to see if it is full.  Vacuum out the boiler and 
stovepipe if you have a shop vac.  But I would think that your building 
inspector would have done this and checked for holes as suggested in .1.

    I had a similar problem.  In a previous house, decaying mortar,
    soot, and who knows what fell down the chimney and eventually 
    clogged the end of the stovepipe from the furnace.  I took out a 
    couple of buckets of soot etc.  Wear a mask that stuff is fine 
    and you don't want it in your lungs.  (I didn't, I know!)  I 
    didn't know about any regulations and just tossed the stuff down
    the bank behind the house on the poison ivy.  (Sorry, MA EPA!)
    
    Stan

    I've had similar effects a couple of times when the nozzle which
    injects the oil into the burner needed replacement (clogged or
    whatever). I gather the spray wasn't as even as it should be,
    and didn't always ignite quickly, so there would be a late ignition
    with excess oil, causing the furnace to belch a lot of fumes
    up the flue. It tended to back out of the flue damper. It was
    obvious when this happened, as the furnace made a lot of noise
    starting up.

    
    I was at a friend's house last month, when we heard a significant
    explosion. We looked outside to see if a tree had fallen on the
    house, but that wasn't it. We opened the door to the basement, and
    immediately smelled smoke.  We shut off the emergency burner switch,
    and went down to the basement (cough, cough).  The cleanout door
    below where the furnace pipe attaches to the chimney had been blown
    out, and across the basement. 
            
    We called their oil service man.  When he arrived, he knew exactly what
    was wrong -- this was apparently a fairly common problem. 
                        
    He opened up the burner unit (Beckett) looked at the two points
    near the fuel nozzle head (my terminology), and found that the points
    had burned down considerably -- the gap between nozzle an point
    tip was now much too wide.  When this happens, the spark that is 
    supposed to ignite the fuel spray takes much longer to do it's job.  
    As a result, the fuel continues spraying without ignition, and when 
    it finally does ignite, the chamber is quite full of fuel, an results 
    in a mini to a MAXI explosion.                  
                        
    All furnaces have safety devices that prevent the fuel from spraying 
    too long (over 40 seconds, I think) without ignition, but sprays under 
    that time can still cause explosions. 
             
    The repairman regapped the points, cleaned the fuel spray nozzle,
    did some other maintenance tasks, and closed up the burner. It worked,
    and has continued to work, just fine. I think he charged just $25.
    
     -- Joe
    
    
    
                                                   
    
    

    Another possibility, sometimes old cast iron boilers will start
    to fall apart. The cement between the boiler sections crumbles,
    thus you end up with a leaks in the fire box.

    Thanks for the information.  I will do a visual inspection tonite
    of all these things.
    
    I was using a latex semi-gloss paint.
    Yes I do have 2 small doors at bottom of chimney.  One for furnace
    and one for fireplace in livingroom (I suspect).
    
    It is definately a combustion odor.  My wife was there most of the
    day yesterday and was feeling sick all day, then felt fine after
    leaving.
    
    I am trying to get a furnace guy there tomorrow morning.  My wife
    called around and found this company (COAN) located in Milford
    and they have a two year maintenance contract, parts & labor, for
    $99.00, they also give us 5 $10 coupons towards fuel, and they
    charge .94/gallon.  After the first two years the contract is
    $99.00 a year.

1>    My wife was there most of the
1>    day yesterday and was feeling sick all day, then felt fine after
1>    leaving.
    
2>    I am trying to get a furnace guy there tomorrow morning.  My wife
2>    called around and found this company (COAN) located in Milford
2>    and they have a two year maintenance contract, parts & labor, for
2>    $99.00, they also give us 5 $10 coupons towards fuel, and they
2>    charge .94/gallon.  After the first two years the contract is
2>    $99.00 a year.

     WRT 1:  Whether the smell is only generated when the burner starts, or
is present the entire time the burner is running might differentiate 
between ignition/nozzle problems and exhaust blockage.  As a further 
startup diagnostic, you can turn off the switch at the furnace, crank up 
the thermostat, open the boiler door, turn on the switch at the 
furnace, and watch what happens.  BTW, you're in luck with the
cleanouts!  Do you have a cap on the top of the chimney, too?

     WRT 2:  Once you learn how to take care of these things yourself,
you'll find $99/yr a lot.  *IF* you have the inclination, you can maintain
and run your system for $5/yr + $0.75/gal.

    re .9
    
    Yes I think $99/year is quite a bit.  But 2 years for $99 is not
    so bad.  Especially if they clean it yearly.
    
    I am a dedicated DIY and plan to watch the service mans every move
    tommorow morning.  I have to ask, how does your $5/year plan work?
    There must be some basic steps you perform on a periodic basis.
    

                Assuming that COAN in Milford is the same as COAN in
        Natick (and I'm pretty sure they are), then that price probably
        does include a yearly cleaning and inspection. We use COAN in
        for our furnace and what you are paying for is two things, first
        the yearly cleaning (much too much for just that - it takes
        about a hour to do it right), and second you are paying for
        insurance that will repair most (but not all - read the fine
        print) problems that you may have during the year. Last year my
        contract paid for itself as I needed a circulator pump replaced.
        Cost to me for that service? Except for the contract - ZERO.
                
                You can do the cleaning yourself. You can keep a small
        supply of a few critical parts handy. You can do the repairs
        yourself. But on Saturday night when the furnace dies, it sure
        is nice to be able to call COAN (or whomever) and get it fixed.
        And if its one of those very cold nights (when else does it
        fail?) and you don't have a contract, guess where your call goes
        (can you say - Bottom of the Pile?).
                
                /s/     Bob

     These are the things you're supposed to do once a year:

     You can vacuum the inside yourself with a shop vac.  Get a long 
handled wire brush to knock the scale off.  this is the most time 
consuming part.

     You can change the filter yourself.  It costs $2.  Be sure to fill 
the canister up with oil before putting the little screw back on, or 
you'll get air in the lines and have to prime the pump.

     You can change the nozzle yourself.  It costs $3.  Or if you have the 
kind that comes apart, you can disassemble it and clean it with a Qtip.  
This is what I had to do two Sunday nights ago when it was going down to 
10 degrees!  To get to the nozzle [Becket burner instructions] remove the 
four small screws holding the steel pipe that goers into the furnace (two
on  top, one on each side).  Pull out the firing assembly.  Use TWO 
WRENCHES to remove the nozzle, or you could break off the pipe its on.

     After you remove the nozzle, run the pump until the oil runs clear.  
When I changed the filter, the glop in the bottom of the canister got into 
the line and clogged the nozzle, which is whty I had to learn how to clean 
the nozzle.  NOTE:  Any time you run the burner when its pulled out, flip 
the transformer back so that its disconnected!!!

     After you put the nozzle back (if cleaned), put the paper cup back 
over it and run the pump to make sure its spraying.

     Slide the firing assembly back in and reattach the steel pipe.

     Note:  it is safer to prime the pump after putting the burner back in 
place, which cleans out the line and avoids having to flip the transformer 
back.  But I haven't gotten myself in a situation yet where I've had to 
learn to prime the pump!

     Total cost $2 + kitty litter.  Total time 1 hour.

    Just to let you know the results...
    
    The burner guy came this morning.  He cleaned the system, said it
    looks like two years since its been cleaned.  Set off some type of
    "bomb" that would cause an odor to go thru the vents if the system
    was leaking fumes.  My wife said she did not smell anything.
    End of problem, I hope!
    
    HE did say the system was very old.  If she smelled something the
    furnace would have to be replaced (so he said, about $2,000).
    
    He did say the burner was running 71% efficient and should be
    replaced this summer (he said about $450).
    
    Well i guess I will start scanning the file for burner replacement
    tips.  I think I could probably do it myself.  I have worked on
    cars for years.  House problems are new to me but I can't imagine
    any more difficult.
    
    Thanks again for all your replies.  Mark.

    First of all, get someone to replace your burner for you.  They
    know how to set the flame properly, and I'm sure you don't.  (I
    played with mine this year, and never really got it just right)
    
    Anyway, if you wait till the end of summer, lots of oil companies
    run promotions so you'll buy their oil.  I've seen some offer free
    burners if you sign up for some period of time.  (like a year or
    something)  I'd start calling then (like maybe August)
    
    
    -bill

>>  HE did say the system was very old.  If she smelled something the
>>  furnace would have to be replaced (so he said, about $2,000).
  
   Maybe he's right but based on the highly technical evaluation above, 
I would certainly call someone else to check it out if it does happen again.  


>>  He did say the burner was running 71% efficient and should be
>>  replaced this summer (he said about $450).

   For an oil fired FHA, that's really not bad.  I believe that mine is 
somewhere around the mid 60's.  I was concerned when I found this out and the 
guy said that he could certainly increase 'efficiency' dramatically but it 
would need another cleaning within a few weeks/months because it would be 
burning too dirty.  I'm really not that concerned about the efficiency in this
case since I use so little fuel to heat my house.  I used about 400 gallons 
last winter.  If you are using a lot of fuel, this may very well be something 
to be concerned about but try to get the right expectations on what the payback 
of a new burner will be.

-Jim
   

    JUST A SUGGESTION.  I REPLACED MY FORCED HOT AIR FURNACE WITH A
    NEW EFFICIENT (BECKETT BURNER) FOR $1076. INCLUDING LABOR. (COST
    OF FURNACE AROUND $950.)  ALSO, .94 PER GAL FOR OIL SEEMS EXPENSIVE.
    I JUST FILLED UP ON TUESDAY FOR .679 PER GAL. I AM IN SO. N.H.
    I WOULD GET SEVERAL ESTIMATES IF I WERE YOU FOR REPLACING THE FURNACE.
    

    
    I checked the fuel bills from the prior owner.  One woman living
    alone, works during the day.  She is using well over 100 gallons
    per month since November.  Seem like alot to me.
    
    My mother told me yesterday that she had a one year old oil burner
    I could have.  She had it installed and one year later she had a
    whole furnace system installed (with another new burner).
    
    Now that I have a free one year old oil burner.  I don't mind
    experimenting by replacing the existing one.  I am getting a
    maintenance contract with the people that just cleaned the
    system last friday (COAN OIL).  They haven't charged me for the
    two hour cleaning they did, because I am signing up for the two
    year maint. contract for $99.  Now the tricky part is will they
    install my one year old burner, or want to install one of their
    new ones?  If they refuse to do mine, what if I do mine, will I
    screw up my maintenance contract?  Ofcourse I will ask them when
    they come over with the contract.  I will pose the "what if"
    questions.
    
    I wonder if anyone out there has replaced an oil burner?  I can't
    imagine it being a difficult task.  Can any DIYer tell me the
    basics of replacing a burner, any special tools, any special
    things to watch out for.  Any more pros and cons to DIY?
                                                     
    Thanks, Mark.

    If it's a relatively new furnace (ie: not a converted coal burner)
    The mechanics of it are really easy.
    
    Turn off the oil at the tank.  Don't trust the little valve there,
    disconnect the spring that goes to the safety shutoff.  That'll
    shut it off in a hurry.  (if it doesn't fix it!)
    
    Next, unbolt the flange from the base of the furnace.  Disconnect
    the oil supply at the oil pump (right on the burner) and pull the
    burner out.  (the wire should be long enough to allow you to pull
    the burner out of the way, if not, disconnect that too)
    
    Bolt the new burner back in (the flange may be different, so you
    should use the one that comes with the 'new' burner)  Make sure
    it is relatively straight and level (doesn't have to be exact) 
    
    Next comes the wires.  After the power goes throught the low water
    cutoff and high pressure cutoff, there should be the equivalent
    of a 110 line directly into the burner.  Figure where this gets
    connected.  (It's probably la Honeywell CAD Cell controller)
    The other wire is the one for the thermostat.  You either have an
    external transformer (mounted on the furnace) or an internal
    transformer (in the controler)  Depends on what you got, how it's
    connected.
    
    
    Connect oil back up, reconnect shutoff, and off you go.  You probably
    won't have to prime the pump, but if you do, there's a bolt in the
    pump somewhere that you take out until oil comes out.
    
    Last thing to do is adjust the fire.  That's the tricy part cause
    it should be done with stack instrumetns, and things like that.
     Maybe the oil company will do that for you.
    
    As for the contract, they'll probably be more than happy to do the
    contract on your new burner.  It's got less use, so will probably
    break down less.  (assuming that it's a common burner that they
    do service)
    
    
    Good luck.
    -bill
    

    re. 18
    
    sounds good, thanks.
    
    only thing I am unsure of is your discussion of wire thru low water
    cutoff and high pressure cutoff?  What do you mean?  Are these the
    electrical wires?  What are these cutoffs all about?
    
    Mark.

    re .17
    
    A 100 gallons a month isn't bad at all ! The reason why a standard
    tank is 275 gallons is because in the pre 1973 time frame, it was
    expected that a tank was filled monthly.
    
    I heat from mid October to mid May . I typically use about 600 gallons
    a season.
    
   

    The tank was being filled once a month as follows:
    
     3/09/87  115 gallons
    
    11/04/87  175 gallons
    12/18/87  142 gallons
     1/20/88  161 gallons
     2/23/88  100 gallons
    
    I think that averages to 135 gallons/month since November.
    
    Maybe 700 gallons for the year if I add up all those numbers.
    Seems like this represents a full years worth of purchases. I
    don't know for sure, just bought the house this month.
    
    Is 700 gallons a lot?  It is a 28' X 36' 4 bedroom cape.
    
    A lot of people out there claiming to use only 300 - 400 gals/year.
    
    Mark.
    

    
    Re: .21
    
    What I wouldn't give for those oil bills (sigh). Mine have been
    easily triple what you are paying.
    
    Keep in mind that this winter has been particularly cold, so
    your heating bills are apt to be high.
    
    -tm (just supportin' those Iranians)
    

    I just got my 2nd oil delivery, the first one filled the tank.  

    We used 139 gallons from Jan 15th to March 7th.

    I don't think we are typical homeowners, we don't stay home all that
    much, and the house is brand new so our insulation is pretty good.
    We have a 26x44 split.

    Just thought I'd throw out another number for comparison.

    George

    Well the numbers I gave in .21 were for one woman living alone
    and working during the day.
    
    She was using about 135 gallons per month.
    
    We bought the house last Monday, moved in on Saturday.
    I looked at my tank level last nite.  It is down 1/4 tank in
    one week.  That means I may be using 275 gallons per month!
    I ran the heat around 60 degrees all last week, and about 66
    degrees over the weekend.  I know the house is well insulated.
    Wonder if I should look into one of those set back thermostats.
    At this point I am not sure what to do.  I think I should 
    definately change the burner with my semi-new one, and see what
    that does.  However I may not end up doing it till summer and
    have to wait till winter to see any possible results.
    
    Mark.
       
    

    RE: cutoff switches.
    
    There are typically two (on boilers at least, if you're making hot
    air, there may be something different)
    
    Let's see if I can make a wiring diagram
    
                                                 White wire
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    From Pannel __________          ___________              To Motor
    -----------|          |--------|           |--------------------
               |Low Water |        |High Press |   Black wire
               -----------         ____________

    
    There may be other things in the line such as stack dampers, and
    the like, but the principal is the same.  Each 'thing' has a switch
    in it and when the thing that it is protecting (low water, high
    pressure, etc) happens, the switch opens, and thus the motor turns
    off.
    
    
    Hope that helped.
    
    -bill

    re: .24
    
    Don't get excited (yet).  The guages on oil tanks are notoriously
    inaccurate.  Especially on the full end.  They are just good for
    telling whether or not you may have some fuel.  When my 275 gal.
    tank gets below 1/4 full it only takes 150 gals. to fillerup.
    
    I have a colonial with a 24x40 foundation plus a 24x24 family room
    over the garage.  I think I use about 1000 gals/yr (includes hot
    water).  My wife is always home though.
    
    Stan

    Re: .21 
    
      I did state that I only used 400 gallons but that was evidence
    for my lack of concern about my burner's inefficiency.  What I didn't 
    state is that I have a *VERY* small three bedroom home, do not heat 
    one of the bedrooms or basement (usually), and typically leave my 
    thermostat set at 68.  In addition, it costs me approximately $20/month
    more to heat this house than the one bedroom apartment with electric
    heat that I lived in before this.  I don't ever intend to go back
    to electric heat but that's another story.
    
    Re: .24
    
      I agree with .26's comment about the guage.  Don't look at it
    to get an idea of how much fuel you have but whether or not you
    have any fuel.  To give an example, when my tank is full, it registers 
    3/4 and when it registered 1/8, I still had at least 100 gallons.
    This also is a 275 gallon tank.
    

    -Jim
    

    RE: .0
    
    Concerning the original topic of this note, FUMES...
    
    I had a similar problem at the end of last winter (luckily).  When
    the furnace (FHA) ran, the house filled with fumes.  Turned out
    to be a cracked heat exchanger.  See note 1137 for all the details.
    
    Just a note of an incident which happened in my home town of Gardner,
    MA last week.  3 people were found dead in a house and the suspected
    cause is carbon monoxide poisoning from a disconnected exhaust
    from a gas hot water heater.  If you suspect ANY type of fumes may
    be in a house, get out and wait for a service person.
    
    Phil

    yes back to the original topic...
    
    Since we had the system thuroughly cleaned, we only smell fumes
    when the system first starts up.  Was re .28 only on startup or
    continuous?
    
    

    RE: .29
    
    It was continuous.  If you still get fumes when the system starts
    up, there is probably something wrong with the ignition.  But, I'm
    not a burner technician...
    
    Phil

    Well I spoke to the oil service company and they said they
    would install my almost "new" burner for me for $32/hour +
    parts.  Only parts would probably be a flange and nozzle.
    
    So I am picking the burner up on Sunday and will schedule
    them to install next week. 
    
    The burner I am getting is a 5 year old (used 1 year) Bell +
    Gossett Series 100.
    
    Will let you know if this works out.  I am anticipating no
    more startup fumes and improved efficiency.  I am currently 
    at 71% efficiency.  The burner guy says a new burner would
    put me at 80%, he said that is the best I can get on my system.
    
    So I could save about $125 for every $1000 of fuel costs, 
    according to a Beckett burner marketing chart I got.

    Although it looks like you have made the decision to replace the
    burner already, your problem may stem from a defective oil pressure
    regulating valve. On some units the valve may be an integral part of
    the fuel (oil) pump, or in other cases a seperate valve mounted
    to the pump. What sometimes happens is the valve leaks and creates
    an after drip condition (oil drips after the flame is extinguished),
    so when the burner starts up again, it ignites more than the normal
    amount of atomized fuel but not enough to create a puff back condition.
    Just enough to create some extra exhaust fumes.......
    
    Joe

    RE. .32
    
    Is there anyway of checking this out?  Mark.

    One way would be to change the oil pump and see if the condition
    goes away. Otherwise you would have to look around the nozzel
    after the burner shuts down to see if there is any oil leaking
    out. Also, in thinking about it some more, your fan blades may be dirty
    (blower) so that it is not creating (supporting) a good draft
    on start up. However after the fan gets completely up to speed
    its enough to take the fumes away. Did the service rep state
    what the problem was?
    
    Joe 

    building a new house. plumber quoted a magic chef l6a 95 furnace.
    i never heard of a magic chef furnace. has anyone else heard or
    had experience with a magic chef furnace? the system will be oil
    fha. the price qouted for the oil furnace, oil tank and trim,duct
    twork - labor and materials is $3500. how does the price sound?
    

    	Sounds like a pretty good price.  My brother-in-law was quoted
    $4300 last year for the same thing.  I put in the system myself
    and got contractor prices for a total of about $1800.  One thing
    you might want to look into though is getting an 84,000 btu furnace.
    I believe magic chef makes one.  The only difference between the
    84k btu furnace and the 95K btu furnace is the fuel orifice, which
    delivers more fuel in the 95K model.  But, you might be able to
    save a little more money by buying the 84K model and then changing
    the orifice to get the extra btu's.  It might not be that big of
    a deal, but it's worth checking out.
    	About the Magic Chef furnace, I decided against it because
    it had a smaller blower and motor than everyone else.  I believe
    the model you are being quoted has a 1/6 horspower motor compared
    to all the others I've seen (I bought a century) that have a 
    1/4 motor.  The Magic Chef does have a good warranty though, better
    than anyone else.  One thing to remember is that only two or three
    companies make ALL the furnaces in the U.S., and then just put
    different names on them for whoever is selling them, so there 
    really isn't too much difference between most brands.  
    	I've still got the Magic Chef brouchure, I'll try to get some
    facts and figures to post.
                                                           

    	I hope its better than the Magic Chef stove I bought, a few
    years ago!!  I have never seen such poor quality before or since!!
     

In the better late than never department.....

I just had a similar problem and pinpointed the problem to be the 
same as in .4 (if two of us had the same problem it must be common).
The smoke alarm in the cellar went off and I could smell(but not
see) fumes in the cellar.  I eventually determined that it was
the furnace and noticed that the draft was not opening like
it should.  I popped the flue pipe off and sure enough the 
pipe was clogged with many years of coroded mortar and what not.
I pulled out two pails full, reassembled and it works just fine.

The only question I have is where does HPSVAX::SHURSKY live so 
that I can dump the pails in his back yard :-).

    I lived in Hyde Park (only real estate mistake I've made) and there
    was a bank down to some unused RR tracks.  Sold the house after
    a year and a half to another couple of unsuspecting yuppies when 
    interest rates were 15+% (whew).  Anyway, I dumped the stuff on the 
    poison ivy which loved it! {;-)
    
    The address was 1153 Hyde Park Ave.  Feel free to dump the stuff
    there.  I don't know who lives there though so do it when it is
    dark.  {:-)
    
    Stan

    Back to the original topic, sort of.
    
    The oil burner in my house is a neighborhood air pollution source.
    The next door downwind neighbors had a falling out with the previous
    owner of the house over the oil fumes coming out of the chimney.
    I don't think it's quite so bad now (we switched oil companies and
    the new one does a better cleaning) but I can still smell a little
    outside, not to mention in the basement at times.  (It's currently
    providing tankless hot water too, which is why it's on during a
    summer heat wave.  And being an UNINSULATED 1932 tankless, it runs
    a lot more than it should!)
    
    The oil man said it's running 78% efficient, with a Beckett burner
    on a 1932-vintage asbestos-covered (coal?) steam boiler.  Not all
    that bad for the age.  Flue temp is in the 500 degree F range.  It
    has a 1 gal/hr nozzle.  Would a smaller nozzle help?  Or is this
    more likely the result of chimney crud?
           fred

    Well, I went with the Magic Chef boiler. When I turned it on it
    was extremely noisy. Much noisier than My previous gas fired fha
    heating system. Called the oil people in to ensure everything was
    adjusted properly. Mentioned the noise . Their response was that
    Magic Chef is the cheapest on the market, generally installedx by
    contractors because they are cheap. They will be noisy and life
    expectency is 10-12 years vs. 20 years for better boilers. Reason
    is because of the guage of metal used. Know of another new home-
    owner who had same system installed by same plumber and has same
    problem.

    re: Furnace Fumes (from memory, of course)
    
    My mother had an "very old" hot air furnace, which was nothing more
    than a large sheet metal vat, and the hot air rose up the pipes.
    When it "backed off" one day, she converted to Gas, tand then cleaned
    the soot out of the whole house !
    
    I had an older 80K btu furnace in house #1, and it was an indrect
    plenum, so the funrace heated a Plenum Chamber, and then the hot
    air was forced upstairs. When I called in the "Heat/AC" folks from
    my "former favorite" oil company; I was told the only thing they
    could do to solve it was replce the furnace (for about $4K more.less).
    
    I bit the bullet, and caled my Gas rep, and they sold me  gas
    conversion unit, at 5% simple interest, with a 10 year UNconditional
    replacement warranty (about 1.50 month). In the process of installing,
    they took about 5, 30 gallon buckets of debris from the furnace and
    chimney. And get this - the said he used to do Heat before, and
    said that this would cause fumes; and not only that, but didn't
    understand why the furnace worked at all ! *The furnace was cleaned
    annually  for about 5 years by "my_fav_oil_co_rep" for about $50./yr!
    
    Needles to say, I was ... irritated.

    When the guy saw that I was insulating my cellar, and blocking some
    smal infiltration holes, he  suggested that if the cellar were "sealed"
    from the out of doors air, AND if the cold air returns were blocked;
    this could also cause "fumes", due to improper combustion (lack of air)
    of the fuel oil.
    
    re: Fuel Bills ?
    
    When I lived in Concord NH (noraml cold spot) my Electric Heat cost
    $500/yr in a 3 BR, Gold Medallion home, small, and we practiced
    heat conservation, with noone home during the day (small cape, with
    1/2 attic, unheated cellar except for a minimal heat blower).
    
    Currently, they average 134/mo for 10 months @ what .. .99/gal ? Of
    course, now I live in amuch larger, older, relatively UNinsulated
    house, with beaucoup windows (35); fireplaces, with someone home all
    day ! (Maybe 1000 gal/yr). 
    
    Tightening/Insulation in progress .. but it takes time.
    
    Bob
    
     

    re:.37
    Answering my own question, we got yet a different oilman to show
    up, this time as part of the annual cleanout.  This guy walks into
    the house and smells the oil...  So he cracks open the cement on
    the little door above the combustion chamber (there's a big door
    where the coal used to go that has the Beckett burner; this is a
    little one above it) and pulls out three bricks!
    
    Apparently bricks are put in coal furnaces to slow down the flue
    gases and improve efficiency.  But this was overdamped, so by cutting
    back to only two bricks, the oil burns better.  Also, he changed
    the nozzle to a wider spray.  It's still 1gph, but burns a lot cleaner.
    
    The surprise is that nobody else caught it.
          fred 

    I also have a magic chef fha system, it is noisey however seems to work
    very well. I have a 75 year old cape/cotage w/3 bedrooms.  I use
    approximately 120 gallons a month..    In addition to that, I have a
    numack woodstove that is hooked up to the magic chef.  I do not know 
    how to run it yet.  Can anyone direct me to the right note or person
    who could give some information on this system..
    
    thanks 
    Doug

My current hot-air oil furnace is over twenty years old and will have to be 
replaced soon. I am trying to locate a hi-efficiency oil furnace with an air-
to-air heat exchanger feature (draw in cold outside air, exhaust stale inside 
air, transfer heat between the two).

Does anyone know of a type that will meet my needs? A supplier near Salem, NH?

Info on free-standing air-to-air heat exchangers would also be appreciated.

Thanks,

John

>            ...I am trying to locate a hi-efficiency oil furnace with an air-
>to-air heat exchanger feature (draw in cold outside air, exhaust stale inside 
>air, transfer heat between the two).
      
      You  are  looking  for  one  unit  to  do  two  jobs  --  heat and
      air-exchange.  From what I've read and heard this is  not  a  good
      idea.   You  get a simpler, easier to maintain system if you use a
      separate furnace and air exchanger. Duct the air exchanger to pull
      inside air from the kitchen and bath(s), and to supply the make-up
      air near the furnace return air intake.
      
      With  a  separate  air exchanger you can run it independent of the
      furnace to keep the air in you house fresh year round.  Our  house
      is  set  up  this way.  Our air exchanger runs continuously except
      when I shut it of, which is during  very  hot  days  in  July  and
      August and during very cold nights in January and February.

      Separate  units will also give you a much wider choice of features
      and capacity for both units.

Re: Reply .01

Charlie, Thanks for the input. Because of the lack of info on combined units, I
suspected that they are not popular.

I am looking at a window unit made by Stirling Technology of Athens, Ohio,
called The RecoupAerator Mod SW-115. It is rated at 65-90 cfm, 90% heat recovery
efficiency, 100 watts power consumption, on sale at $255.

Does anyone know about this company/product?

Thanks,

John

    I'm converting the the electric heat in my house (colonial) to
    forced hot air by oil.  I want FHA because I want central a/c. 
    Gas is not an option.

    My questions are:

    1. I've heard about two methods of getting the heat to the ducts in 
    the attic, one is to send ducts up thru a closet from the basement 
    and the other is to send a hot water pipe up to the attic which 
    then is somehow rigged to heat the air in the ducts and I guess 
    there would be a second blower in the attic as well.

    Has anyone had any experience or know anything about these two
    methods?


    2.  My second conern is the hot air coming out from the ceiling in 
    the second floor which will blow straight downward.  WIll this be 
    uncomfortable?  Certainly if one is standing directly under it it 
    would be.


    Thanks.

    /Phil

    
    I think the hot/water to air conversion is a last resort for situations
    where ducting is not possible.  You might as well have a FHW system
    (And avoid all the dust/dryness problems with FHA.)
    
    If you are able to duct through a closet then that's probably going to
    be the simplest solution, and if you ever want to add central air, 
    the ducts will be already there.
    
    I like idea of the downwards vents.  They are a bit more energy efficient
    as they circulate warm air in a room - it doesn't stay up by the
    ceiling.  The baffles allow you to dispers the flow in different
    directions, so draughts are not such a problem.
    
    Regards
    
    Colin
    

    
>    I think the hot/water to air conversion is a last resort for situations
>    where ducting is not possible.  You might as well have a FHW system
    
    why do you say last resort, independent of cost, i'd think the 
    "hydro-air" solution better in that in doesn't waste closet space.

    I'm interesterd in their relative strengths / weaknesses, any 
    knowledge?


>    (And avoid all the dust/dryness problems with FHA.)
    they use high quality filters (so I'm told) which makes FHA more 
    attractive to us allergy sufferrers.
    

    thanks

    My house has its upstairs FHA vents in the ceiling.  They work just
    fine.  The ducting from the basement up to the attic makes a long run
    so be sure that they are well insulated in the attic.  There is also
    an extra switch on the furnace blower so that you can circulate air
    in the summer without having the burner on.  That puts cooler air
    upstairs even without A/C.

    I'm not familiar with the "hydro-air" solution, but it sounds very
    interesting.
    
    If you do the ducts, you need a fair amount of space.  Our house has
    FHA.  It's a small house and the ducts going to the second floor take
    up a significant amount of would be closet space.  I'd rather have FHW
    and a few more closets.  The dust is also a factor.  You mentioned
    filters for the ducts.  I've heard of them but never used them.  Does
    anyone have any informaton on them?  (if this should be in a separate
    note, please move).
    
    Rhonda

   I've read through all the FHA notes and didn't see anything that answered my
   first  time  basic  questions  about oil FHA systems, I need a FHA primer of
   sorts.  Some basic questions are:

   1) What  does  the  maintenance  of  a oil FHA consist of? How often do most
   people  replace the wiremesh air filter in their furnace and where is a good
   place to get them inexpensively?

   2) How often do you have to clean the burner? Does it really have to be done
   every  single  year  or  is  that  just hype from oil companies who want the
   service  work dollars? Does the rate of cleaning depend on how heavy you use
   the  furnace  (ie,  can  light usage make a cleaning last two years, etc)?
   What needs to be cleaned (carbon build-up like on a spark-plug), and can you
   clean  it  yourself  (may be worth learning if you truly have to do it every
   year)?

   3) How important is it to insulate the duct work? Mine are all bare, even in
   the  unheated garage (except for a thin popcorn texture paint covering).  If
   the  duct  is  mounted  against  the  ceiling  (/floor  above), you can only
   insulate  the  exposed  portion  right?  What  insulation  is  used to cover
   ductwork like this (styrofoam, fiberglass)? Is it hard to do?

   4) Where  do  you  caulk on the ducts? The seems are joined sheet metal, no?
   (will have to check when I go home)

   5) What the heck is a 'plenum' mentioned in several notes, the term's not in
   the  dictionary.   It  sounds like it might be the main duct the other ducts
   feed from?

   6) How  does  an  oil  FHA  system  work?  The oil burner heats up a chamber
   (called  ??),  once  the  chamber  is hot enough, the fan motor turns on and
   takes  air  from  the cold air input feed, into the fan chamber with the fan
   and motor, blows it into the heated oil burner  chamber, and then out to the
   house,  and  when  the oil burner eventually shuts off, the fan continues on
   until  the  chamber  is  cool?  That's  what it seems from observation, am I
   anywhere near right?

   These probably seem like pretty stupid questions but I've never had to worry
   about  heating systems before now and need to get filled in.  Thanks for any
   help...

   -Erik

    The "???? chamber" is called a heat exchanger. Your sequence of events
    is pretty accurate.
    
    I change my intake filter once a year, but often pull it out to check.
    It rarely looks like it's been used....
    
    Edd

	I'm not  sure  if my heating system is 'supposed' to work this way, but
	when  the  fan motor is on, I get barely a trickle of air coming out of
	the  register vents throughout the house.  In past FHA systems I had in
	places  I've  rented,  the  air  is blown through just as many register
	vents  but  comes  out  hard enough to blow a piece of paper across the
	room  (although  the  present vents are the 3' long baseboard-like type
	vents).   In these past systems you could feel the air being blown with
	your  hand.   In  my  system  now,  you  can't tell whether what you're
	feeling  at  the  vent  is  the  air  being 'blown' out at a trickle or
	whether it is just the heat rising up out of the vent on it's own.  The
	house  does  get  warm  so  it's not a catastrophe, but it doesn't seem
	right (and I'm probably wasting oil).

	I checked  the  fan  motor  and saw that the pulley to the fan (a small
	circular  drum) was loose.  I tightened the pulley thinking I found the
	problem  but  the air still comes out very weakly (albiet a tiny little
	bit better than before).  I haven't replaced the air filter yet (I will
	when  I  find  a  place  to  buy them) but that wouldn't impede the air
	_that_ much I wouldn't think.

	Any ideas?

	-Erik

    I'd get the burner serviced every year - cheap insurance and better
    efficiency.  They'll clean out the combustion chamber, replace the
    nozzle, set the air intake to the burner for a clean burn, change
    the filter on the oil tank, oil what needs to be oiled, and stuff
    like that. 
    
    Insulate the ducts wherever you don't want to lose heat - the garage
    sounds like a likely candidate.  You may want some heat in the cellar
    to help keep the floors warmer and to keep it warm down there if
    you have a shop or something.  Up to you.  There's some rigid 
    fiberglass board about 1" thick that is generally used; I've never 
    done it so don't know about techniques.  You could use regular batt
    fiberglass wrapped around the ducts if you want, but using that would
    be rather unwieldy and not look very neat.
    
    

�    2.  My second conern is the hot air coming out from the ceiling in 
�    the second floor which will blow straight downward.  WIll this be 
�    uncomfortable?  Certainly if one is standing directly under it it 
�    would be.
    
    I lived in 2 places where the FHA came out of the ceiling and/or high
    up on the walls.  One was a basement apartment, the other a house on a
    slab.  I didn't notice any problems.

    You could always remove the filter just to see if it's the source of
    your problem...
    
    Edd

    My gas FHA plenums/ducts are covered with a fiberglass insulation with
    a vinyl jacket.  I assume this is a product designed for this use.
    (I was amused to notice that the installer was willing to let it touch
    the flue pipe and melt off there.)
    It is attached to the sheet metal with some sort of ringed pin and wide
    sheet metal "nut".
    I presume there is a special pop-rivet type gun that sets them.
    Failing that, duct tape (get the real thing) would work.
    The jacket is fairly thin, fine for a basement, but an outdoor space
    may want something thicker.
    
    I would not caulk a duct.  Use real duct tape.  (Hence the name)
    
    Some of us in the networking business are well familiar with the word
    plenum, as network cables have to be "plenum rated" if you want to
    route them through any space in a commercial building that moves air
    for heating or cooling.  Often the air space above suspended ceilings
    is used as the return.  Typically that means that the cable jacket plastic 
    has to be heat resistent and not give off toxic fumes if burned.
    Usually Teflon fits that bill.  PVC does not.
    
    	Dave. 

    
    Look for small levers on the sides of exposed ductwork near the boiler. 
    These are connected to a baffle inside the duct to control the passage
    of air.  (They are used to balance the system).  Some may be closed off
    completely.
    
    It may also be worth taking off the register and checking inside.
    Two of ours had large chunks of baseboard & mud inside.  (Don't stick
    your hand in - the sheet metal screws are nasty!)
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
        

   2) How often do you have to clean the burner? 
	    It depends on how much you use your furnace.  The cost of a
	tune up is supposed to be less than the money you'll save on your
	oil bill.  But if you use your furnace primarily as a back (for a 
	woodstove, for example) you wont really save any money.
	    There is a note in this conference that explains how to do a
	tune up.  Problem is not being able to measure emissions to insure
	everything is set properly.  The pro's have everything they need 
	and it doesn't cost all that much to have them do it.  

   3) How important is it to insulate the duct work?
	    You would recover the cost of insulation in one heating season.
	There's no reason to heat your cellar and more so your garage...
	unless you want to.  I used craft faced fiberglass to cover the 
	ducts feeding the heater vents.  I just stapled it to the floor 
	joists.  I think you can get a blanket designed for covering the 
	main duct.

   5) What the heck is a 'plenum' mentioned in several notes?
	    That's the air tank that gets heated inside the furnace.  It
	isolated the air being heated from the fire/fumes.

   6) How  does  an  oil  FHA  system  work?  The oil burner heats up a 
   chamber (called a plenum)... / ...am I anywhere near right?
	    Sounds very right to me.

					Tim

	    Your blower motor may be wired for three speeds.  If so, you
	would have to swap some wires around.
					Tim

    
    Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, 1988
    
    plenum ... 1... b (1): a condition in which the pressure of the air in
     an enclosed space is greater than that of the outside air  (2): an
     enclosed space in which such a condition exists...
    
    According to the definition, anything in an FHA system from the output
    side of the fan to the heat registers could be considered part of the
    plenum. I've heard people use the term to refer to the section
    connecting the heat exchanger to the rest of the duct work, and
    possibly the main duct that feeds all the branches (which might also be
    referred to as a manifold).
    

    
    The most important criteria for adjusting blower speed is the air
    temperature at the outlet of the heat exchanger. All furnace
    installation manuals I've seen indicate the desired outlet temperature,
    which reflects a compromise betweem efficiency and comfort.
    
    If you pump air faster through the system, the outlet temperature will
    be lower. In striving to create a more forceful air flow at the heat
    registers, you might just wind up with cool drafts.
    

    Re -1
    
    Now I'm "baffled".  It's a re-circulating system, so the air has to
    gradually get warmer, whatever the speed - Right?. (Unless the heat
    loss from the house space was greater).  It would just take longer to
    reach desired temp.
    
    Wouldn't a higher speed also recover heat more efficiently from the
    furnace instead of letting it go up the flue.  Like when you put a
    blower on a woodstove?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin              
    

    
>    Wouldn't a higher speed also recover heat more efficiently from the
>    furnace instead of letting it go up the flue.  Like when you put a
>    blower on a woodstove?
 
    I don't think so. What goes up the flue is the "waste" from the
    firebox. What gets blown around by the fan is the contents of the
    heat exchanger...
    
    No?
    
    Edd

    You're right about the flue - I was thinking about the heat that was
    exchanged with the flue gases at the exchanger.  
    
    c.
    

    
    
    If you increased your heat disapation area, say more cooling fins
    as in a FHW system, you would be able to lower your exause temp.
    Maybe thats what you were thinking....
    
    As far as moving the air faster...well I guess if your intent
    is to feel cool, I guess thats why you turn the fan up to hi
    in the summer.  You cool off the air temp with a faster flow...
    Works the same way with the blower in the exchanger..
    
    JD

    
    The faster you pump house air through the heat exchanger, the higher
    efficiency you will realize. This is one of the thermodynamic laws;
    the larger the temp difference, the better the heat flow. If you let
    the air in the exchanger heat up more by pumping it more slowly,
    efficiency decreases; the logical extreme would be no air flow,
    air temp equal to exhaust gas temp, no heat flow, 0 efficiency
    (and furnace meltdown).
    
    Now go the other way, increasing air flow to some improbable rate.
    Heat transfer efficiency is high, and yes, in a closed system the house
    air will eventually rise to the desired temperature. The problem is
    that you now have a rather strong air flow in the living space that
    is imperceptibly warmer than its surroundings. Because quickly moving air
    also removes heat more efficiently from a warm human body, this will be
    perceived as a cool draft.
    
    Thus, setting up air flow in the system is a balance between efficiency
    and comfort, and the proper setting relates directly to the air temp
    at the outlet side of the exchanger; the outlet air temp also relates
    directly to the safe operation of the furnace; therefore that setting, and
    not the force of the air issuing from the vents, should be the primary
    concern in tuning the system.
    

    
    Thanks - now I understand where you're coming from. 
    
    There's also a preset upper/lower limit on the plenum temperature
    which is independent of airflow rates and the setback thermostat.
    (usually a honeywell 'stat in a box on the side of the upper plenum.)
    When the furnace starts, This device cuts out the fan until the plenum
    reaches the low setting.
    
    If the air temp in the upper plenum falls outside of the range
    specified on this thermostat, it will start or stop the furnace. This
    would prevent the scenario you describe.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    

    
    	Thanks for the help here. My next job will be insulating the ducts.
    
    > The cost of a tune up is supposed to be less than the money you'll
    > save on your oil bill.
    
      	That helps to know. What's the typical cost for a cleaning?	
    

    	Well I replaced the filter and made sure the levers were open (they
    	were all already wide open). Perhaps the fan motor is wired at a
    	slower speed for some reason like suggested. Maybe I'll just have a 
    	furnace person look at it when I get the burner cleaned...  

	-Erik

    Carlisle Fule in Boylston is charging $50-$55 for a cleaning, I
    think (that's for a FHW boiler, not a FHA furnace, but I assume
    it's comparable).  Parts (new nozzle, filter, etc) add a few bucks
    to that.

    
    
    A few years back it cost me $35.  I'll find out next year
    if the price goes up......
    
    

    My neighbour's two story house was not getting much air out of her
    vents on the second floor.  She took off the vent covers (registers?)
    and found a pair of pants and a shirt that was blocking the duct
    completely.  (The previous owners were 'not nice people').  Maybe this
    is causing some of your air-flow problems.  
    
    With me, I too was finding differences in the force coming out of the
    different vents.  It turned out that the baffles were closed.
    
    Doug

-    <<< Note 4772.2 by VAXWRK::OXENBERG "illigitimus non conderendum es" >>>
-
-
-
->    (And avoid all the dust/dryness problems with FHA.)
-    they use high quality filters (so I'm told) which makes FHA more 
-    attractive to us allergy sufferrers.
-    

    I belive they are electronic filters.  Does anyone know anything 
    about them, good/bad?
    Thanks.
    -Phil

    Is it an FHA system?  We bought an old 2 family and both furnaces were
    'FHA'.  One blew the air hard enough to move paper (the true FHA
    system) while the other felt more like hot air rising.  It turned out
    that the one that felt like hot air rising was a gravity fed hot air
    system not a forced hot air system.  I actually preferred the gravity
    system to the fha system, less dust more efficient, although it took
    longer to raise the temperature of the room.
    
    Rhonda

 >found a pair of pants and a shirt that was blocking the duct
 > completely.

	The vents looked clean when we vacuumed them, but I'll remove them
    	just to make sure (wouldn't surprise me in this house).

    	I checked the baffles and they seemed to be in the open position. I
    	assume they would only put them in accessible places (mine were all
    	right by the furnace).

> One blew the air hard enough to move paper (the true FHA
> system) while the other felt more like hot air rising. 

	Well mine feels more like hot air rising, but I believe it is a
    	true FHA (I'm not sure I understand how a gravity fed system
    	works however). The furnace has a big drum fan and motor that seems
    	to take air in from larger intake vents and 'forces' the heated air
    	through the smaller heat vents.

    	I'll have to remember to call a furnace service person soon and
    	have him/her check out the system while cleaning the oil burner.

    	-Erik

You might also look at the blades on the blower.  As they get coated with dust
and grime, they become less effective.

Dave

    
    
    
            In the orginal note FHA was preferred because of the heating
            and central a/c.
    
            Having a mixed system will cost more than a straight FHA
    	    system. Basically you are setting two heating zones. FHA for 
    	    the main floor and hotwater to air conversion for the the up 
    	    stairs, so each zone have it's own thermostat to regulate temper
    	    ature.
    
            With water you will need a circulating pump to move the water
            to the attic were the heat exchange is located. Your furnace
            will need to be able to support both types of heating systems.
    
            You will need to run electrical wire to the heat exchange to
            power the blower and run wires from the thermostat and back to
            the circulating pump (furnace). Since heat will rise from the
            main floor, the upstair's zone via the circulating pump will
            turn on and off when needed.
    
            How do you plan to cool the upstairs in the summer time?
            With central air, the cool air in the basement can be
    	    circulated through the house, on those hot days the a/c compressor
    	    would turn on to maintain the desired temperature.
    
    
    		My .02 worth
    
    		Mike
     

My parents have a gravity hot air system.  There's no fan.

>            How do you plan to cool the upstairs in the summer time?
>            With central air, the cool air in the basement can be
>    	    circulated through the house, on those hot days the a/c compressor
>    	    would turn on to maintain the desired temperature.
 Using central w/ an a/c compressor.

 Thanks for the great explanation!  What do you think of such a 
 system (aside from initial cost)?  How does this type of setuo 
 compare with a FHA system, ie running a trunk line (air duct) up from 
 the basement to feed the loop in the attic (aside from wasting more 
 space in the closets)?

 Thanks a lot for your help.
 /Phil

    Combined FHA and FHW...
    
    Basically, you're talking about having a hot air furnace and a hot
    water boiler, i.e. two totally separate heating systems.  I suppose
    there is no reason why you can't, except you'll need two chimneys
    and you'll have the cost of two separate heating systems.

    
    
    In your orginal note it sounded like that you didn't want to lose
    closet space to the duct going upstairs. But instead running 2 water
    pipes, 1 for hot water to the heat exchange the 2nd pipe to return
    back to the basement. This is why I ask how do you plan to cool
    the upstairs. My opinion is that you will get greater benefit with
    one system (FHA). There would be one heating system, in the summer
    time the cool basement air can be circulated through the house 
    along with central a/c. A booster fan can be installed in the duct
    upstairs to increase the air output if needed.
    
    	Good luck
    
    	Mike
    

    Along the same lines of the base note...
    
    Well the loan and all the minor headaches went through so as of April
    23 I'll be a happy homeowner, now the questions.
    
    I bought a 5 year old Townhouse, garage/basement/1st floor with
    kitch,bath,liv/2nd floor 2 bed, 1 bath.  It is currently all electric
    and I would like to convert to either gas or oil.  Once I choose the
    type of fuel I need to decide FHA or FHW.  Almost all will be
    contingent upon $$$$$.  Since I'll be moving in the cooling vs the
    heating season I won't be doing much about it until Aug/Sept timeframe. 
    
    Which would be cheaper to convert to oil or gas? What type of price
    range am I looking at?  If I convert to gas I need a plumber right?
    
    Any comments or anyone's 2 cents would be welcomed.
    
    Joyce

    If you have gas in the street, I would convert to FHW gas. If you
    wanted central air conditioning, I would convert to FHA gas.
    
    Marc H.

>            <<< Note 4772.12 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT "I'm the NRA" >>>
>
>    If you have gas in the street, I would convert to FHW gas. If you
>    wanted central air conditioning, I would convert to FHA gas.
>    
>    Marc H.


    I second Mark's opinion, with one additional comment.  A few 
    months ago I investigated converting my electric heat to fhw (oil) 
    or to fha (oil).  The reason I was interested in fha was for 
    central a/c.  After getting many quotes for both types of 
    conversions I opted for fhw (w/o central air) after noting that 
    adding central a/c (and all the ductwork) later woulddn't cost me 
    more (assuming prices didn't go up)!

    Good Luck,

    /Phil
    

I recently purchaced a home at an auction.  The house set vacant for 2 years.  
The heat is oil FHW.  The system (seemed) to have been drained but I noticed a 
large rust stain on the basement floor.  When I filled the system, not only did 
I find there were a couple of broken pipes along the floor board fins (I can 
deal with these) but the boiler seemed to be leaking.  I took the motor/burner 
off and the steel face plate and filled the system to locate the leak.  Water 
was leaking from the seams of the boiler at the bottom.  The motor runs when I 
turn the furnace on but I haven't been able to check much else without being 
able to fill the system with water.

Is it time to throw in the towel and buy a new boiler?  
If the burner and pump still work, can I use these with a new boiler or should I
replace the whole thing?
From reading other notes in this conference, it looks like I'm looking at a 
price tag of $1,500-$3,000.  Is this accurate?

Thanks for any advice,

Dave

    
    sounds like someone left the water in the boiler over
    the winter and it had a chance to freeze up and burst
    the water jacket.  If its not to old you might be able
    to get parts. (depending on make an model)  But then again
    it might cost almost as much as a new one.  
    
    Make a few calls.  Have someone come a check it out.  Give you
    a price and go from there...
    
    JD

    I would start reading all the notes in this conference. Sounds like
    just the start of an interesting home ownership period.
    
    Marc H.

Thanks for the advice!!

Any recommendations on who to call?  I live in the Lowell area. (Plumber 
or heating person?)  This is my first house so I'm new to alot of this.

Thanks again,

Dave

Dave,

I have had very good success with MASI homeowner supply 
in Nashua NH.  If the boiler is not too old they may be
able to just replace the water jacket.  I think that the
burner is usually the most expensive item in these cases.

Good Luck,
Wayne

    
    MASI just ran an ad about a bulk purchase of new Weil? furnaces
    that they are offering - the prices seemed pretty good, ranging from
    $900 to $1500.
    
    Colin

I am buildings a house with FHA heating. I've seen a air-to-air heat exchange
unit but do not know of any suppliers. The unit performs by the following:

                                                                  |
                                                         inside   |  outdoors
                                                         house    |
                                                                  |  
                                                                  |
                                     vvvvvv=======================|===< intake
                                      \\\\\\                      |
                                       \\\\\\ ////////============|===> exhaust
                                        \\\\\\XXXXXXXX\\          |
                    ~20-30% purge        \\\\XXXXXXXX\\\\         |
  Return stream                           \\XXXXXXXX\\\\\\        |
==========================>================////////  \\\\\\       |
                 \\                                   vvvvvv      |
                  \\                                  ||||||      |
                   \\                                  \|||/      |
                    ======>=======================>==|----------| |
                                                     |          | |
                                                     | Furnace  | |
                                                     |          | |
                                                     |----------| |
  Heated Air Feed                                         |       |
<=================================================<=======v       |
                                                                  |

Please advise,
Dave

I've wired a few and believe that the supplier is typically a heating and
cooling supplier....Total Air in Nashua NH comes to mind. Whoever is doing
your ductwork should have access to a dealer for them. 

Paul

    I'm thinking of enclosing our oilheat furnace to help in finishing off 
    the basement.  I'm wondering if anyone knows of any regulations or
    codes that need to be followed.  I expect you have to leave a
    reasonable space around it for servicing, and of course you need 
    air circulation to keep the burner actually running. Any other thoughts
    or advice would be greatly appreciated.
    
    PeterT

    
    The clearance limits might be marked on a plate attached to the
    furnace or printed inside a door panel?

    
    My burner is approx. 2 feet from an unfinished wall - studing +
    insulation.  I would like to cover this wall with wall board.  Is
    that o.k., or do I need something fire retardent?  I thought that
    ordinary wallboard should be o.k., since the studs are wood and the
    studs are only 2 feet away from the burner.
    
    eleanor

re: .2

	depends on where you live i would guess (ie. local codes).

	last fall i installed a gas fired boiler within 4-6 feet
	from the oil tank for my oil fired boiler (ie. the tank
	was/is not going to be removed).  the city building inspector
	told me i had to put up a fire wall between the gas boiler
	and oil tank, and that the drywall had to be type X (firecode) 5/8".

    Generally standard wallboard is NOT OK.  The norm around here is
    to use fire-rated sheetrock (heavier and a tad thicker than blueboard)
    coated with plaster (skim-coat, need not be smooth) within four feet
    of an oil burner.  No exposed wood permitted in that area.  The rules
    for a gas burner are less stringent.

    re .4
    
    Actually, to be specific, one can use 1/2 inch blueboard with a thick
    skim coat, or one can use 5/8 inch sheetrock without skimcoat.
    

RE: -1  In Uxbridge it must be 5/8" firecode and a skimcoat... 

    Any idea about what you would do about flooring?  I would like to floor
    the part of the basement where the oil furnace is.  Would you just
    leave a cut-out and with what clearance?  It would be neater if I could
    floor under the furnace but I guess I would have to use some different
    kind of material, like they supply for putting wood stoves on?
    

    re: .1
    
    Charlie,
    
    Can you tell me more about your system (i.e. manufacturer, where it was
    bought, etc)?  They are very common on new construction in Canada 
    (very tight houses by code).  In fact, all the manufacturers I know of 
    are in Canada.  I call places around here (Mass) and they don't even 
    know what I'm talking about!  I just haven't found the right source.
    
    
    re: .2
    
    I would highly suspect any system's efficiency rated as high as
    90%.  Also a window unit might service a small area, but a
    typical system ducts fresh and return air to and from different
    parts of the house.
    
    rob

My son has FHA-oil, and just went through a learning experience I wanted
to share. 

His furnace quit. At night, naturally. He determined that it wasn't
getting oil, and further determined that his oil pump was not working. He
took the oil pump off the gun and dismantled the pump to see if it was
blocked - it wasn't. However, the plastic coupling between the blower
motor and the pump shaft was stripped. He then set out to find a
replacement. Something over twenty five telephone calls later he got
ahold of Marino's in Manchester NH, who told him that he "wasn't supposed
to" sell to him, but "by law was prevented from denying him." All
previous calls had ended (some rudely) with the business telling Greg
that he had to call an oil burner service man; they "don't sell to the
general public;" they "only deal with professionals" and so forth.

Marino sold him the coupling for $8 and a gasket for $1. Greg reassembled
everthing and the furnace fired right up.

We think that the coupling was damaged a couple of months ago when the
fuel oil in his lines (exposed outside tank) was gelled. There's another
entry somewhere in this conference about that experience.

It's sad that this kind of "old boy" club exists. Lord only knows that
oil burners are not rocket science. I've met some burner service men who
were technicians, and some who were one step above knuckles dragging on
the ground. I happen to believe that the policy of parts suppliers
"protecting their service men" is a bad policy. I use "professional"
service men for many things, but dammit, if I want to replace my furnace
nozzle some night, it shouldn't be impossible for me to buy one just
because some counter man refuses to sell me one.

Art

    I can't believe this topic doesn't have its own note....?
    
    Looking for reference for reputable
    underground oil tank removal
    in general Acton, Mass area.

    re:-1
    
    	See 2015.28.
    
    	Ray