Conference 7.286::home_work

    Finally back in to reading this conference after a long absence.
    This has to be one of the most useful ones on the net.
    
    As some of you old time readers may remember, I was looking into
    buying land and building a house. I decided I am crazy enough to
    do it and after 1-1/2 years of searching, negociating, and borrowing,
    my wife and I now own land in Bolton and have a signed P&S on our
    current home.
    
    Building should start sometime in early May and we are now trying
    to make some design/plan decisions. We have decided on FHA as our
    heating method. Heating methods of choice seem to be like religions,
    many opinions, most with good reasons. As mentioned in another note,
    we like FHA because of the options for humidifiers, A/C, air cleaners,
    and just because.
    
    We have always had FHA by gas and prefer it. In addition, my wife
    would very much like to have a gas fire cooking surface and we
    currently own a gas dryer. Unfortunately{Bolton does not have natural
    gas service.
    
    So my options seem to be...
    
    	1) bottled gas for all (heat, stove, dryer, water)
          
    	2) Oil FHA heat, small bottled gas for stove, etc.
    
    	3) Oil FHA heat, electric stove (sorry Lyn), new dryer, elec
    	   water heater.
                       
    	4) Other variations of above.
    
    
    With that long winded intro, could those in the know please expound
    on the vices and virtues of the situation.
    
    What size tank would I need for option 1? Can it be buried in the
    yard? How does the cost of propane compare to natural gas?
    
    On option #2, is oil FHA as dirty as it would seem?
    
    On option #3, will my marriage survive? ;-)
    
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    							Mark
    
    P.S. My ideal set up would be a well source heat pump. Unfortunately
    the initial cost is too high for our budget right now and the
    technology still seems somewhat crude. Any thoughts on this are
    welcome (probably in a new note or one of the long ago early ones.)
    

    I grew up (in the midwest) with propane FHA heat.   I don't remember
    the capacity of the tank, but it was (I'd guess) approximately 4
    feet in diameter and 6 feet long, but the ends were rounded
    (semi-spherical).   Propane is more expensive than natural gas (or
    at least it was 20 years ago!); I can't speak for the prices in
    New England.
    
    You can't bury the tank.  Tanks can be rented (small monthly rental
    fee).
    
    Also, there are some concerns about basement-based propane furnaces.
    Propane is heavier than air, and a leak will cause the propane to
    settle to the floor of the basement.   I've never heard of anyone's
    house exploding, but I suppose it would be possible.   I also imagine
    that the same thing happens with natural gas (although NG is lighter
    than air.)
    
    

My neighbor has installed propane FHW in his new house.  He seems to feel
that the heat will be inexpensive as compared to oil or electric.  My house 
is all electric and the reason I choose it over gas or oil are as follows.

1)	Mass Electic has the cheapest rates in the state.

2)	Zero maintenance costs of electric heat.

3)	An alternative heating system was at least $3000 dollars more to 
	upgrade.  How long would it take to make up the difference over
	electric.

4)	Safety.  Propane does settle to low spots.  You are asleep, child
	wakes up (with a gas leak) and turns something on.  BOOM.  Propane
	is dangerous (I think).  Once on a construction job in Cambridge
	(a tunnel) they were using propane heaters to cure the concrete.
	There was a leak, an explosion, and serious injury.  They didn't
	use them again.

This isn't a vote for electric heat, obviously in New Hampshire (for 
instance), the cost of electricity would make it a less desirable choice.
I would pick oil over propane just out of safety considerations.

Brad.

	Lots of people I know have gas heat and absolutely love it.
	It's clean and it's efficient.  Also you don't have to worry
	about our friends over in the OPEC countries raising the 
	price of oil on us again if you use gas.  I heat my house 
	about 98% with wood and use a gas heater for backup.  I'm still
	on my first 100 gallon tank (still 60% full).

	As far as safety, it's like anything else.  If it is installed
	properly and you don't go around cutting the lines you needn't
	worry.  I wouldn't dismiss propane just because of the horror
	stories that people tell about gas explosions in construction
	sites and the like.

	-gary

    I can't see an argument for heating via electricity in any state.
    
    My total heating costs this winter for an 1800 sq. ft. home will
    be around $300-$325 and it sure won't be by PSNH!!
    
    Being the former owner of an all electrical home, I have fond memories
    of my $400 per month electricity bill.
    
    -- Bob

    Our whole house is propane (underground piping, the neighborhood
    has one large propane tank farm).  Very clean, and very cheap
    to use (in NH, for heat, hot water, dryer, and stove, our bill
    for all on the budget plan is $65 per month, and we keep the
    house at 70 degrees without any other heat source).
    
    One nice thing about LP, when it leaks, boy do you know it.  The
    smell will almost make you lose your cookies!  They had a pressure
    glitch on the system, and the pressure regulator in our furnace
    developed a leak.  We noticed the smell, called the gas company,
    and they were out within an hour to fix the leak, at no charge
    (gas leaks will bring out the national guard, or so it seemed!).
    Anyhow, even tho we smelled the gas leak, the repair man said
    it would have barely caused a small flame, let alone an explosion
    or something.
    
    Have it professionally installed, and make sure the appliances have
    the correct pressure regulators and shut-offs if the pilots go
    out - and you'll be all set
    
    Andy

	After living in my house for one year now, I can tell you that I
	wish I had FHW instead of FHA (oil).  The advantages and disadvantages
	of both have been listed numerous other places in this file but
	I would like to reinforce a few of them concerning FHA.

	My experience has been:

		FHA disadvantages - Dusty, noisy, dry heat (really affects
				    wood floors and furniture), uneven heat.
				    (I don't think the dust problem would be
				     any better with gas.)

		FHA advantages    - Heats house quickly, no long runs of
				    baseboard in living area (a lot of duct
				    work hidden though), no potential frozen
				    pipes.

	My next house will be FHW.  I personally don't like gas or propane.
	I agree that electrical heat would be expensive no matter where your
	located.  Then again, after this winter maybe I'll move south
	and just have to worry about AC :^)


	Phil

    You east coasters seem to be sold on burning oil.   We midwesterners
    (and westerners) believe in burning natural gas.   Where natural gas
    isn't available, we use propane.   I never saw a fuel-oil delivery
    truck until a year ago.   Putting gas into your house is no more
    an invitation to an explosion than someone dropping a lighted match
    down your oil-tank fill tube.  (I've worried about that too...)
    
    It was hinted at in a previous reply, but be aware both versions of 
    gas (natural and propane) have an odifier added to it before it
    is distributed to the consumer.   This odifier is lighter than air,
    and will rise.   For propane, the odifier is also an indication
    that the supply tank is getting low.
    
    As far as service goes, natural gas is always there.   Propane
    deliveries are just like oil deliveries.   You can get it on demand,
    or you can get regular deliveries.   (At least,  we could in the
    midwest; I assume it's the same everywhere.)
    
    Gas furnaces have the highest efficiency ratings (and can consistently
    deliver that rating) of any device available today (except solar).
    
    Also, a  FHA system allows you to insert a central air conditioning
    system easily, now or later.   If the dry air is a problem in the
    winder, in-plenum humidifiers take care of the whole house, not just
    one room, and properly maintained, they'll last as long as the house.
    
    My builder didn't want to do the ductwork, or I would have had FHA
    propane in my house.
                        

    I like FHA.
    	To address the comments in .5
    
    DRY- Get a humidifier.  I pump 4 gals a day into the air, but then
    	again I like it humid
    Dirty- Get and electrostatic filter.  A good system will leave your
    	air *very* clean.
    Uneven Heat- Balance it.  It takes some time and practice to balance
    	the system with the valves in the ducts.  If a room is too hot,
    	close down the valve.  Check your thermostat, with my RobertShaw
    	my system holds to +/- 2 degrees.
    
    Advantages:
    	The heat comes up real fast.  Within 15 minutes my house is
    	warm
    Multi Zone - This is the big benefit for me.  I've got two bedroom
    	that I don't use.  I shut off the ducts for those rooms and
    	don't have to pay to heat them.  I leave the doors closed and
    	the rooms stay at about 55-60.
                                      
    	I think it is more important that the system is well though
        out than whether it is FHA or FHW
    
    					=Ralph=

      I keep hearing that hot air heat lowers the humidity in a house,
    and hot water heat doesn't.  How can this be, unless there is a
    leak in your hot water system.  Both systems heat the house by having
    air pass over a heated metal surface.  Whether this occurs in a
    central place and then is blown through the house, or it occurs
    in each room and moves by convection currents, I don't see how either
    one changes the amount of moisture in your house.
      Comments ?
    
    Jim D.
    

    
    re .9:
    
    I agree. By raising the temperature of air, you decrease its relative
    humidity. Any heating process that does not also inject more water
    into the heated air will dry it out. Steam heat would seem to be
    the only system that has an advantage on that point.

    re .10:
    
    Only if you have a properly leaky steam system.  A fully sealed
    steam system is just as bad as the others.
    
    /Dave

    re.5 odor in gas
    
    I believe the chemical added to gas to make it _very_ noticeable
    was selected specifically for the sensitivity humans have to it
    - one of the most easily smelled chemicals known.  Anyone know its
    name?
    
    __rich

I just converted from wood to LP; I bought one of those "fireplace" stoves,  and

I've  had nothing but good luck with it. I got away from wood because I got sick

of being slave to the stove (yeah, I know coal burns  longer,  but  I  hate  the

mess).  I  didn't  have room for an oil furnace, and natural gas isn't available

where I am. I also installed a baby direct-vent LP heater in the bedroom.



I was burning about 1.25 cords ($125) a month, plus  I  was  spending  about  50

bucks  to  heat  the  bedroom  with electric. Now I'm spending $200 a month (and

that's the *COLD* months) for LP, and my electric  bill  is  back  to  something

reasonable, plus my bedroom is warm.



By the way, LP gas IS very much tied to the price of oil since that's  where  it

comes from, right? Or have I forgotten my high-school chemistry?





                                                            - craig

    
    Thanks for all the replies. As I said in the base note, we are decided
    on FHA (sorry to the other religious sects, we like it!). I'd still
    like to hear from folks on Gas vs. Oil FHA.
    
    Also, does anyone out there know why they won't let you bury a propane
    tank? They let you bury oil tanks and they can leak with serious
    environmental consequences. If the gas tank leaks it will eventually
    dissipate. Also, in the very, very remote chance of explosion, the
    ground would absorb the shock.
    
    Will they allow you to put an LP tank in your cellar? (a la oil
    tanks)
    
    Note on!
    
    						Mark
    

You can bury propane tanks.  A friend of mine has his buried and 2 new houses
behind me have their tanks buried.  This is in Milford/Merrimack N.H.
The tanks are coated with some kind of black substance(rust proofing?).

Check with your local propane supplier on the availability in your area.


Mark Parenti

      My propane co. says there are 91,500 BTU per gallon of propane and
    the cost is around $1.17 per gallon when purchased in quantities
    normally needed to heat a whole house.  Oil has around 140,000 BTU
    per gallon, at around $0.70 (?) per gallon.  If my math is right, thats
    80,000 BTU per $1.00 for propane and 200,000 BTU per $1.00 for oil,
    so propane would cost more than twice as much as oil to run.
      The choice looks easy to me.
    

  Maybe the LP companies won't bury tanks because they own them?  It would
  be hard to retrieve a buried tank if the customer changes vendors...

  On the other hand, if you're willing to buy a tank and bury it, I can't
  imagine a gas company refusing to fill it up.

  JP

    

    I recently moved into a new development in Merrimack, NH and
    my gas tank is buried in the back yard.  The tank is given
    to me based on the fact that I will continue to use Suburban
    Propane as my supplier.  They charge slightly under $1 / gallon.
    
    I don't know what happens if I change supplier, I would guess
    they would let me buy the tank, or come and take it away.
    
    					Eric
    

You cannot legally store gas bottles inside of a building.

Propane is heavier than air. When it leaks it will form approximately
three foot deep layer. At the correct gas/air mixture, it becomes
rather explosive and can be set off by arcs in light switches, door bells,
brush type motors and misclaneous other normal sources of sparks. 

Natural gas on the other hand is ligter than air.

I heard a story told by a Mass Firefighting Acadamy instructor about
a gas company employee who was investigating the smell of gas in
a neighborhood. He went to the house where the smell was the strongest
and rang the doorbell. There was an exposion in the house. (no one was
home) He found the gas leak.
    

    RE: 810.12
    
    		The chemical added to natural gas to give a warning
    	odor is  -  Ethyl mercaptan  -  taken from National Geographic
    	March 1987 issue.  It was one of the 'survey' odors in the
    	September 1986  "The Intimate Sense Of Smell" article.
    
    	Rich M.
    

    Oil may be cheaper per BTU than LNG. But be careful in making a
    comparison based on BTUs. An oil burner is LESS efficient than a
    gas burner. An oil burner requires more maintenance. An oil burner's
    efficiency drops off quickly (relative to gas) and requires maintenance
    to bring it back it its peak. At its peak, it's less efficient than
    a gas burner at its peak.
    
    Add maintenance costs for each furnace system to your annual heating
    cost estimates. Then compare Oil to LNG/LP. Oil is probably still
    somewhat cheaper. LNG is imported to New England, with Algeria being
    one of the sources...
    
    Check to see if high efficiency gas furnaces are available for LNG/LP.
    I have a Lennox Pulse (condensing) furnace (new house). It runs at a
    claimed 95%+ efficiency level, pulling in outside air for combustion.
    It has a muffler and water trap on the 'exhaust' side and exhausts
    via plastic pipe through the side of the house. No chimney required
    (and thus no construction costs for a chimney). If this type of
    furnace will also burn LNG/LP (I think it will), take the cost of
    a chimney ($3000) and compare it to the savings with oil. If the
    flue savings are greater than the 7 year savings with oil, your
    choice should be simple: LNG costs less  (providing you've done
    all the calculations properly ... including maximum efficiency oil
    burner research). BTW: you can do without a chimney for the water
    heater flue, too ... use a fan boosted side vent from the basement.
    
    Whether you use gas or oil for central heat, it doesn't seem smart
    to throw away your gas dryer IF you can cheaply convert it to run
    on bottled gas. I've stuck with an electric stove primarily
    'cause I worry about little kids getting loose and starting a fire.
    I've always felt gas stoves are easier for little kids to start
    fires (themselves or the surroundings) with. But if you'd like a
    gas stove, go with it. It is easier (much) to regulate cooking
    temperatures on the cooktop.
    
    Let us know what you do.
    
    BTW: FHW lowers your relatively humidity LESS than FHA. I mean,
    have you ever seen water leaking out of an air duct? :-)

    as was pointed out earlier, it is not legal to put propane tanks inside
    buildings, not just because of the risk of leaks but because they
    present a serious problem in case of fire - the contents are under
    pressure and potentially explosive.  When we got our propane service
    installed, one of the questions regarding tank placement was determined
    by tank size, you cannot install a tank larger than 100 gals. next to a
    house - I inquired why and was told that it is possible to unhook and
    move a 100 gal tank in case of fire but anything larger would require
    mechanical assistance to remove to safety.  Oil tanks in the house
    might feed a fire but since the contents are not pressurized they will
    not explode due to heat. 
    
    another point to consider regardng oil vs. gas - depending on the heat
    demand for your house there may or may not be a good option for both.
    Remember that there is a particular operating range where maximum
    efficiency is obtained, a furnace sized too big or too small for your
    needs will not be efficient.  We initially considered oil, but the
    smallest oil burner we could find was rated at almost twice our
    projected heat demands - so we went with gas (as backup for passive
    solar/woodstove) and are quite satisfied.  
    
    Incidentally, the smallest oil burner we were quoted was rated at
    around 70,000 btu/hr, we have a gas furnace rated at 45,000 which the
    plumbing contractor swore would be inadequate and it's fine!  We also
    use a Hearthstone II woodstove which is also rated at 45000 btu output,
    this year (after we bought ours) Hearthstone introduced a model which
    combines a gas burner with the woodstove - reports in the STOVES
    conference give it good reviews.  I actually think we are better
    off with a seperate unit, because I use the ducting to recirculate the
    air from a cathedral ceiling heated by the woodstove or solar gain,
    and I'm quite happy wiht our results.

    RE .7
    
    Since you've probably never tried it, if you drop a light match
    into a flask of #2 fuel oil, it will get extinguished.  The fuel
    oil will not burst into flames.  Fuel oil must be atomized before
    it will burn well.
    
    -al

    Re: .23:   You can do the same thing with a container of gasoline (do
    not attempt this trick in your home). It's not the liquid that burns,
    it's the vapors.   If an oil tank is less than one-half full, there's
    lots of vapors...

    Re: .24
    Fuel oil is certainly not a flammable as gasoline, but I don't
    think it's quite as safe as your reply may be suggesting.  My
    neighbor's house almost burned down because of a leaky oil tank.
    The oil leaked out of the tank, ran across the floor, got too
    close to the boiler, and ignited.  When the fire department got
    there, the concrete floor was on fire.  You have to work a little
    to ignite fuel oil, but once ignited it certainly will burn.

    Opps - my previous reply should be " Re: .23", not .24....
    

    .20, .12:
    
    FWIW:  One of the mercaptans (either ethyl or butyl, or maybe both)
    is one of the more notable ingredients of the spray of a skunk.
    
    Dick
    

    re.12 The oderant they use is very concentrated 1/2 cup will put
    a very strong gas smell over about 5 Sq. miles and it is metered
    into the gas at a rate of about 1 drop to 100,000 cubic feet of
    natural gas. The stuff they use for proopane is different and
    smells like rotten onions/garlic.

    The discussion on gas vs. oil is interesting; it brings up a question
    I've had for a while: is anyone out there using bottled gas *only*
    for the purpose of running a gas stove (kitchen variety)?   I'm
    wondering how much fuel they might consume per hour (or average
    monthly use, or whatever units you want to express it in).   We've
    been considering remodeling a kitchen, and including a commercial
    6-burner/2-oven hulk, but our town doesn't have gas service.   Is
    it going to be a major wallet drain to operate it?    I don't recall
    what the BTU requirements are off-hand, but I know some of them
    can be fairly hefty.   ANy inputs would be appreciated!
    

      I'm using bottled gas for a kitchen stove only.  Costs about $15
    every 5-6 months.  That's a family of four, no pilot light on surface
    burners but pilot light in oven.  Oven used about 3 times per week.
    (Usually use microwave.)
      
    Jim D.

    I would like to know if any readers have had any experience with
    wall mounted gas heaters.
    
    I had a dormer built on my cape last year, and am at the point of
    adding a heat source.  My main heat source is FHA by oil, with a
    consolidated duchwest wood/coal stove in the parlor.  It seems it
    would be too much of a hassle to run air ducts upstairs, and I would
    like to stay away from electric heat.
    
    I like the idea of having 2 heating zones, as the upstairs will
    consist of a master bedroom, study, and a 3/4 bath.  I am considering
    an infared light for the bath.  I presently have a 100 gal. propane
    tank that I use for my hot water and dryer.  Also, the tank is right
    under my deck, which is off the dormer.  I think I could get away
    with running a source pipe in the outside corner of my house, drill
    a small hole in the deck to accomodate the pipe, {about the thickness
    of a pencil}, and go right into the outside wall where the heater
    will be mounted.  
    
    The master room will be approx 12X16.  It has 6" wall insulation
    as well as 6" in the ceiling.
    
    Any comments/suggestions as to pros and cons, as well as btu size?
    
    Thanks alot
    
    
    Bruce

    I installed a wall mounted propane heater in my summer cottage in
    Maine. The unit cost about $350 from Sears.It required a single
    hole of about 12" through the wall for a double wall pipe that is
    both air supply and exhaust. It also requires an electrical circuit
    and thermostat wiring.
    
    The house has been occuped through two winters and the wall heater
    supplement the woodstove. It seems reasonable on fuel use,but because
    the renters bought the fuel I cant give accurate consumption figures.
    
    If I were doing it over I would use electric heat- simpler to install,
    takes up less room, quiet, and for supplementing another heat source
    not an unreasonable cost.
    

    I just put an addition on my house which is heated with a wall
    mount gas heater. I have natural gas, but runnig the gas line
    and mounting in the wall will be the same. The area that it heats
    is 14 x 16 feet. The unit is 26k btus and will heat the room
    very fast even on the coldest days.
    
    As a question is this area going to be used for bed rooms ? You
    may not need to heat this area if you have it insulated well.
              
    
    dave
    

    
    I talked with Suburban Propane yesterday. Here are some of the details
    I found out.
    
    A tank can be buried in the yard but you have to buy the tank. It
    is a 500 gallon tank and the cost $1000.00 and you must also do the
    prep work (i.e. dig the hole).
    
    The installation costs are $40 an hour ( I wish I could get that
    pay!) and the tubing from tank to house is $1.50/ft.
    
    If you don't bury the tank it must be at least 10ft from the house
    (but who wants a 500 gal. tank sitting in the middle of their yard?).
    
    You need to get the applicable permits from the town (~$25.00) a
    and propane is currently going for about $1.18/gal. How does that
    compare with oil and natural gas after factoring in furnace
    efficiencies?
    
    I'll keep you posted.
    
    						Mark
    
    P.S. Those with heat pumps... please add to the heat pump note.
    

    Yes, it will have a master bedroom about 12x16, but the study will
    be somewwhat secluded by a hallway.  I would like this to samewhat
    heat this also.  Is it reasonable to say that about 15kbtu's will
    be sufficient?  Or would it be better to get something a little
    bigger.  I had thought of relying on the heat rising up the stairway,
    but figured it would be better to add a heat source just in case
    it wasn't enough.
    
    As far as adding heat by electric baseboard, I think I would have
    to add an auxilary panel to my service as I have 100 amps.  I'm
    just about to capacity now woth my outlet upstairs.  I don't want
    to have to shut off the hair dryer when the heat is on etc..
    Also, I believe that if there was a power outage I would still have
    heat upstairs to compliment my woodstove downstairs.
    
    
    Bruce

from 849.3:

>        Also, I believe that if there was a power outage I would still have
>        heat upstairs to compliment my woodstove downstairs.

Don't these gas heaters need electricity for a blower?
    
    sd

    Could be wrong, but I think I remember reading that propane has
    _less_ available BTU's per gallon than fuel oil. This would also
    have to be factored in. Any propane experts out there?

    Charlie

    Propane has  ~94,000 btu's per gallon. I don't remember the exact
    number, but I think oil is ~130,000 btu's/gal.
    
    					Kenny

    re .-1
    
    Yes, but does the difference in the burner efficiency (gas > oil
    I think) make them equal out?
    
    							Mark
    

    The tanks sure are ugly, but you may be able to put them in some kind
    of shed. When we added propane heat we had an enclosure built around
    the tanks (in fact we had to, because we live in a detached condo
    and exposed tanks are not sufficiently esthetic).
    
    The enclosure is open for about a foot above ground level; the gables
    are also open. Rather than solid sides it has vertical slats; I seem to
    remember the fire department wanted this so they can inspect and/or
    hose down the tanks. The slats are angled so the tanks can't be seen
    from the street. 
    
    (The requirement that the tank be 10' from the house must be a local
    one; we live in Nashua, and our tanks are right against the house.)

    						Val

    Have you had anyone come out to give you an estimate on putting
    a duct upstairs. I used to do this with my father's business, it
    might not be as bad as you think.
    
    Nick

     We have a contemporary saltbox style home that has a 16' cathedral
     ceiling that runs the width of the LR/DR.  Consequently, it was
     very hard to heat.  The house came equipped with electric baseboard
     heat (big $$$'s to run), and a wood stove in the basement.  Not only
     did that setup make it expensive to heat the living area, but it took
     a LONG time to get the area warm.

     We added a 40K BTU wall mount propane heater before the beginning of
     last season, and love it.  It cost us $65-70 a month December-
     February (that's in VT, BTW), and we don't use the baseboard heat
     at all.

     I would think something around 15K BTU would be more than enough for
     the area you mentioned, considering it's upstairs to boot.

     There's a big difference in efficiency in units now.  There's some
     on the market now that are 90%+ efficient, so look around before 
     you buy.  

     Re -.1:  Although most use a blower, you can still use them in a
     power outage, the heat just takes longer to circulate.

    Our wall unit uses electricity not just for the blower, but for
    the thermostat -- so the gas can't be turned on at all unless you
    have power! 
    
    We also have a floor-standing unit that is entirely radiant and needs
    no electricity (that's why we got it). Don't know whether there
    are any wall units available that are radiant.

    					Val

    This is an extention to reply .2.
    
    We looked at using electric heat as well. The reason for not using
    electricity is that we had a 100 amp service panel. The electrican
    we spoke to said that the service panel would have had to be upgraded
    to 200 amps, so the cost would have been the cost of a new service
    panel, the wiring for the electric heat, and the heating units.
    
    The gas unit I put in is a self contained type. It mounted through
    the wall like a air conditioner. It does require electricity to
    run the blower and the igniter.  The avarage monthly cost to run
    the heater so far has been about $12.00. 
    
    There are wall mount radiant gas heaters but most are low BTU
    units. They also don't advise using radiant heaters in sleeping
    areas.

    Well, I'm out of season, but, I need info on LP Gas heaters and
    the installation of such. 
    
    The gas company stated that they would have to install a 1,000
    tank which sounds a little ridiculous since it's only for one 
    rec room at the rear of the house. Is it really needed???
    
    Also, could I tap off the current line/tank set-up, that I use 
    for the gas stove/oven???
    
    Any recommendations for a brand in the 30K+ BTU range with of
    course, a nominal fee attached to it???
    
    Thanks for any info that can be sent my way...     gfc_NIO
    
    PS/ Also, does Taxachusetts have any special laws around these 
       systems...
    

    1000 lb seems a bit large!  I heat my whole house with LP
    gas and only have a 250 lb tank.  
    
    The main thing to look for is efficiency.  Mass doesn't allow
    the high tech unvented gas heaters and vented space heaters
    run between about 60 to 80% efficient.  My furnace is a high
    tech 96% efficient unit but cost over $1,000.
    
    If you work out the math, a 60% gas unit may cost nearly
    as much as electric heat - it depends on how your local rates
    run.
    
    - gerry

    I entered a note around #900 on the same question for a dormer I
    had built.
    
    I ended up getting a 25k btu heater for a12x18 space.  It cost 440.00
    with a 200.00 install fee which included the labor to put it in,
    as well as the gas man running the lines etc.  The heater I got
    was a wall mounted unit which had a comb. ari intake/exhaust pipe
    which was around 8" in diam.
    
    My local gas company had quite a selection among various vendors
    to choose from.  Most of the heaters had an optional blower unit
    for around 100.00 extra.  The unit I have requires no elec. to run
    it. except for the optional blower, which I don't think I will need.
                           
    As far as Tank size, I have a 100 gal, {not sure of lb}, tank that
    I use for hot water and dryer, and need it filled about twice a
    year.  I anticipate to having it filled one extra time in the winter
    for the new heater.
    
    Bruce

    RE:.3
    
    Just got my grill tank filled.  It's 4.6 gallons per tank (standard
    size I believe is 20 lbs.)
    

      On my bill it is stated that propane weighs ~4.5 lbs. per gallon.
    
    					Kenny

                           -< OIL OR PROPANE ?? >-
    
      I'm soon to be building an addition on to my house. At which
    time I will be installing a new heating system. The town I live
    in does not have gas so I must choose between Oil and Propane.
     
      My origional intention was to go with an Oil FHW system. But 
    before I make any final decisions I'd like to hear some other 
    opinions .
                  
    
      Do any of you out there heat with Propane ?
      If so could you comment. 
    
    thanks
       rjr 

    If you are interested in cost take a look at note 1184.
    
    Propane can be very expensive as central heat unless you
    install a high tech hot air unit.  I have one and am very
    pleased.
    
    - gerry

We have had propane hot water and oil heat over the past several years.

1) Propane has stayed at about $1.10 to $1.20 per gallon even while oil 
dipped to $0.60 per gallon.

2) Oil has a higher specific heat (I believe it's called) than propane.
That is, per gallon of oil, you get more BTUs of heat out of it.  That's
why an oil water heater is considered cheap to run as compared to propane.

The problem with oil is maintenance.  We need a $65 maintenance contract
each year to make sure the burner is cleaned, etc.  Oil burners are also
noisy.  And you need that big tank inside.  On the positive side, oil is
very quick to heat and arguably safer than gas. I'd be surprised if
you did not end up paying less for oil in the long run (with a modern
burner), even with maintenance included, than for propane.
 
(We don't have an oil water heater because they are very expensive and
self destruct relatively soon.  A boilermate is one way to avoid a 
separate propane or oil water heater--worth looking at if you are 
installing a water heater as well.  There is a separate note on boilermates)

Hope this helps,

Alex

    re : .1
    
    Now that I'm tantilized, more on the "high tech hot air unit"? 
    What, where, how, how much, how hard, etc..
    
    			Pete
    

    The high tech hot air units consist of a very high efficiency boiler
    propane or natual gas (90%+ AFUE) and a seperate fan coil unit.
    
    Glow Core of Cleveland OH is one boiler maker
    
    Environmental Control Systems of Denver Co. makes a fan coil unit
     with a built in air to air heat exchanger Model ECS20 or ECS40.
     This is similiar in price to a plain fan coil unit, and gives
     proper ventilation. (Ventilation is important in efficient house
     construction)
    
    The boiler supplies hot water for the domestic use, as well as space
    heating. For space heat, hot water is pumped through a car radiator
    like unit, with air blown over it by the fan. It gives the fast
    response of a forced air heating system, and very efficient use
    of the gas.
    
    We currently have oil fired forced air with a seperate oil fired
    hot water heater. The water heater has very poor efficieny even
    when clean and adjusted. The standby losses are terrible. The above
    gas system will cost the same or less to install, and total operating
    cost should be lower due to the high efficiency. 
    
    I don't have all the specifics in front of me, but send me mail
    if you are interested.
    
    Regards
    Richard Chase
    
    
    

    I have a very different "high tech" hot air system.  my unit
    is not associated with hot water and does not have any water
    system.
    
    It starts with a conventional hot air burner and heat exchanger
    but pumps the flue gas though a second stainless steel heat
    exchanger placed in the return air flow.  This 2nd exchanger
    extracts the heat of vaporization (heat needed to boil) from
    the moisture in the flue gas.  There is a lot of this since
    a major by-product of combustion is water vapor.  The 2nd
    exchanger is stainless since the resulting condensate is
    slightly acid.  The condensate passes through a chamber filled
    with marble chips to neutralize the acid and then drained
    or pumped away.
    
    The flue gases are pumped out via 2" plastic drain pipe. The
    pump is needed since the gasses are too cool to develop any
    "chimney effect".  I pumped it out horizontally, it can be
    vertical or mixed as well.  The main advantages of the unit I
    picked were cost of operation and that I could vent without
    modifying my house. 
    
    The type of unit I have is %95 efficient and cost between
    $800 and $1500.  Sears and many gas suppliers handle them.
    
    - gerry

    
    
    	I used silicone calk to fill the gaps in the joints then wrapped
    them with duct tape.  All the gaps were less than 1/8th inch.  The
    temperature dropped 10� in my cellar after sealing the gaps.  This
    year I wrapped the main trunk of the ductwork with 3�" unfaced
    insulation then covered it with black plastic.  I didn't think it
    was worth it to do all the runs.  The only duct insulation that
    I saw for sale was a worthless �" foil faced foam tape with an R
    value of 3.  Grossmans wanted $10 for a 20' roll.
    	I also insulated the feeds to the second floor bedrooms with
    the 3�" pink insulation.  I'm not sure of the heat savings but it
    really muffled the sound.
    
    					=Ralph=

    re: .0  point 1)
    
    	Are you planning on leaving the cat when you sell the house?

    Very good point!!! 8^)
    
    Thanks,
    Dick B

    Your flue plans may be against code and dangerous.  If you have
    two gas appliances on a single flue what may happen is; the first
    comes on and does not ignite filling the flue and general vicinity
    with gas, the second comes on, does ignite, and results in a major 
    explosion.  If the appliances are operating properly there should
    be no problem, but mechanical devices have been known to fail.

    I brought a room heater from England which runs on bottled BUTANE.
    The cylinder was about the same size as the propane ones supplied
    over here for gas grills. Does anyone know what conversion would
    be required or the source of bottled butane over here ?
    
    Thanks
    Rod

    
    
    Filling your bottle should be no problem. where you get the gas
    for your grill or any RV service area should do ----- BUT -----
    
    beware that in most states gas space heaters must be vented and
    portables or kerosene are outlawed. Besides just the thought of
    using an unvented portable gas heater should be frightening to you.
    Would you bring your gas grill in the house to cook on?

    I can understand why you would want to convert from electric heat.
    But why convert to FHA?  As I understand the different types of
    heating systems, FHW is superior in both efficiency and eveness
    of heat (and thus comfort).  Is FHA easier/less costly to install
    as a retrofit in existing houses?  Are FHA systems better than they
    used to be?
    
    Just wondering.
    
    Joe
    

    I'm beginning to think gas heat is on the way out.   Either that
    or gas prices have risen to the level of oil.  
    
    We used to live (rented 2nd floor of 2 story converted private home)
    in a poorly insulated house which had oil heat & a gas stove.
    After a 4-tank December (275 gals.) we decided it was better to
    be cold and eat regular for the rest of the winter than the
    alternative.  The next Fall we bought a gas stove/heater and
    mounted a fan.  (We also carpeted the uncarpeted floors, etc.) 
    We stayed comfortably warm most of that winter using the stove 
    only and dropped our heating bill by a factor of 10. 
    
    Because the landlord wasn't holding up his end we decided to buy
    a house ASAP instead of waiting 1-2 years.  We moved into an
    all-electric home.  After sitting on the stove for a year we
    decided we had no use for it (electric rates are very good in our
    town) and the stove went up for sale.  (We thought it would go
    quickly, as it would be good for summer cottages/camps as well as
    a year-round house.)
    
    But: I've had only 2 calls in 2 years on a stove that was used less 
    than one year!  Since it is in great shape, and I'm asking less than 
    half of what we bought it for, I can only conclude electric and oil 
    heat are now competitive with gas. 
    
    							Don

.    than one year!  Since it is in great shape, and I'm asking less than 
.    half of what we bought it for, I can only conclude electric and oil 
.    heat are now competitive with gas. 
    
 	Don,

	I'm sure your note was 'tongue-in-cheek'.  Seriously though,  for 
	your stove to be compatible with a Camp would'nt it have to work
	with Propane via a tank ?  Also, how do you vent the stove ?
	Lastly, whatdya want for it ?

	Chuck

    I was thinking of a summer cottage which may have a std. gas stove
    but no heat (I've statyed in one); it would certainly extend the
    seasonal use.
    
    Well, you got me there.  I am a bit frustrated with the whole thing.
    It saved us big bucks that winter, and I'm amazed there wasn't more
    interest.  I do know if my new house was oil instead of electric
    I'd've found a way to get gas plumbed in. 
    
    The last guy who looked at it wanted it for rental property, but
    it wouldn't fit, even after he haggled me down $50 bucks.  (Turned
    out the mice who lived in the kitchen were hump-backed, so it wouldn't
    fit.  I got the impression there was just enough free space to open
    the 'fridge.)
    
    Anyway, I'm now asking $250.00 for it; a 4 burner stove with oven
    & broiler and, of course, the heater.  My position now is I'd like
    to find it a good home for it while getting a fair price (the above-
    mentioned slumlord told me he could get a basic model *new* stove 
    *w/o* heater for 3 bills) or else I'll have to do something drastic 
    with it.
    
    Incidentally, it comes with the vent pipes.
    
    							Don
    
    
                  
    

    
    Here's a question about "helping a forced hot air system".  I've
    looked at all the keywords under heating, and have not found anything
    directly related to this question, hence I'm entering a new note.
    
    A few years ago, I broke a wall (partition) down between two medium
    size bedrooms, removed the attic floor joists and made myself a
    large master bedroom with a vaulted ceiling.  I used the two heating
    ducts in the original room to serve enlarged room, and when building
    the room, put in a celing fan to circulate hot air back down towards
    the floor.  By raising the ceiling I added about 125 square feet
    to the area, and now find that I'm a little short on heat.  Well,
    not really, it's just that the heating is uneven.  I've got, according
    to accepted calculations, a large enough furnace, but in order to
    heat this room comfortably, I've got to heat the entire house a
    little warmer than it need be.   The house is a split level design,
    and the heat is on one zone.  SO here are the questions:
    
    1.  I've seen a device (in the Grainger's catalog) which is like
        a booster fan for a hot air system.  Seems like you cut these
    	into the plenum arond the point where you need to increase the air
        circulation.  Anyone have any experience with these, and might
    	this sort of an auxilary fan help me, or would this create other
    	problems.
    
    2.  The house currently has two oversized cold air returns; both
    	are located in the hallway which I guess is pretty common for
   	FHA system in a split.  For a room the size of my bedroom, (about
    	360 square feet) would it be a good idea to add a cold air return
    	the inside wall?
    
    3.	Would breaking this room into another zone be an option, and
    	if so, how costly and or cost effective would this be?
    
    Other than adding supplementary heat (which I don't really think
    I need -- I believe I've got the needed heat available in my furnace,
    I just think the circulation provided by my ducting is inadequate,
    are any of these ideas workable (or any combination of them)?  If
    I were going to add supplemenary heat it would probably be a length
    of electric baseboard -- design and space constraints rule out a
    gas wall furnace or a wood/coal type stove.
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    /Dave
    ductwork needs some "rework"

    	The quickest fix would be to rebalance your FHA system.  Hopefully
    each air duct in the system has their own shut off valve.  Each
    duct has it's own resistance to air flow due to it's length and
    number of bends.  The shut off valves can be used to balance the
    air flow so that each duct gets the same amount of flow.  I've seen
    fancy devices that actually measure the flow, but I just stood over
    each duct and gave it a rough guess.  If your system doesn't have
    the shut off valves in the ducts you can close down on the register
    grates.  
    	In your case I'd suggest cutting back on all but the ducts going
    into the new expanded room.  That way less air will go to the rest and
    more will be pushed into the new room.
    
    					=Ralph=
                

    I agree with .1 that balancing the system should be your first attempt.
    If this doesn't work try increasing the blower motor speed if it is a 
    variable speed type. You may end up with an unacceptable noise level
    though.
    
    I would recommend an extra cold air return for that room, it may
    be possible to change one of the existing returns to service that
    room. It's much more difficult to get a separate return all the
    way back to the furnace.
    
    Splitting into two zones may be very difficult since you usually
    can't find a place to split the main trunk line to service the
    areas you are concerned with. Depending upon how the duct system
    is layed out this may or may not be an option for you.
    
    Nick

    
    RE: .1,.2 -- I've already rebalanced the system, and unfortuntaly
    since the blower is in a "contractor's special" furnace, it doesn't
    (to my knowlege anyways) have a variable speed blower.  Of course,
    could I go to a different sized set of pulley wheels for more blower
    speed?
    
    Also, with respect to rebalancing, I have full flow into the large
    room -- and have restricted the flow into the other areas, particulary
    the rooms closest to the furnace.  But, I have two ducts that are
    completely closed off, since  I'm currently not using these areas.
    But when I do need to use them, (soon too, at least for one) I am
    going to need more airflow.  So as it exists, I've rebalanced the
    system to best utilize what I have, but still need more.  Adding
    another cold air return might not be a big problem, since the two
    cold air returns are on the hall all, and the other side of that
    wall is the high wall in the bedroom, thus the cold air plenum runs
    right underneath it.  About how large a register should I cut into
    the bedroom for this?  And, given what I've explained here, should
    I still be looking at increasing the airflow?
    
    /Dave
    
    

>    RE: .1,.2 -- I've already rebalanced the system, and unfortuntaly
>    since the blower is in a "contractor's special" furnace, it doesn't
>    (to my knowlege anyways) have a variable speed blower.  Of course,
>    could I go to a different sized set of pulley wheels for more blower
>    speed?

You may be pleasantly surprized if you have one like I have. It came from
Slumerville Lumber, and all outwardly appearances does not indicate it
has variable speeds.  However, when I opened the electric box on the
blower, it had one common lead, and 3 hot leads.  Looking at a small
schematic near the blower labeled the hot leads "slow", "medium", and
"fast" speeds for the blower.  Thus there was no switch that changed
the blower speed, but rather a semi-permanent selection of connection
leads to use.

    During this last cold snap I also had a similar problem with my
    FHA system. I resolved my problem by balancing the system and wrapping
    my ductwork with insulation.
    
    You mentioned in your initial note that you were considering electric
    baseboard as a supplemental heat source. I am also considering a 
    supplemental heat source for an addition I recently put on. Originally
    I thought of electric baseboard but then was drawn by an advertisement
    in Practical Homeowner to something called Hydronic baseboard heaters.
    The ad claims that these can save upto 50% over whatever your presently
    using to heat with. From the description on the ad these baseboard
    heaters use electricity to heat up a silicone filled pipe located
    in the unit. They claim that the properties of silicone allow it
    to retain heat longer than other mediums and therefore saves you
    money.
    
    Has anyone had any experience with these hydronic units or know anything
    about them. 

    re: .5
    
    I think this type of heater is against the law.  Of physics, that
    is.  If it retains heat longer then it is not giving it up to the
    interior of the house.  If it is giving it up to the interior of
    the house and there is more of it then silicone holds more heat
    than water (or whatever) and needs more electricity to get it to
    the same temperature.
    
    There is a transfer of energy: conversion from electric to heat, 
    then convection and radiation into the room.  The only way to 
    improve the system is to make the energy conversion from electric 
    to heat more efficient (Since the heater is inside the house no 
    improvement in transfer helps.  All the heat in the heater goes 
    inside the house.  The only question is how fast is it transferred.)
    Anyway, these claims sound like horse puckey to me.
    
    Stan

RE: Heater

What I guess this gizmo does is have higher heat storage capacity then a normal
radiator.  Whether that is a usefull property, I can't think of a reason it
should really be.

Jim. 

    Yep, Resistant Electric heat is 100% efficient, regardless if it's a
    toaster, one of them new fangled disc-heaters, or a "Hydro-Heater"
    heater. All the "Hydro-Heater" (fluid filled, electrically heated) can
    do is slow down and lengthen the heat transfer time. 

    For example, a regular electric baseboard may be on for 5 minutes and
    pump a lot of heat (these things do get hot) into the room quickly to
    get it up to temp. 10 mintues later it may have to turn on again to
    reheat the room. 

    A "Hydro-Electric" may be on for 10 minutes to get the room up to temp,
    but after it shuts off (stops drawing power) it will continue to
    release heat into the room. So it may be 20 minutes before it starts
    drawing power again. 
    
    The bottom line in power consumption is the same, The "Hydro-Heater" is
    safer because you don't get the high heat that you do from a regular
    baseboard. It's heat (slower but more continous) MAY BE PERCEIVED as
    more comfortable as well, although the room may feel cool periodicly
    because they take longer to re-heat a room. 
    
    They do cost about 4 to 5 times more than a regular electric baseboard. 

    Charly

    
    How 'bout the original topic (?! -- please and thank you!!)
    
    I've as .5 suggested checked out my blower, and short of changing
    the pulley on the belt driven fan, I see no way of upping the blower
    speed.  I have a 1/6 horsepower motor putting out 1750 rpms, and
    I don't know what the blower speed is, but the reduction looks like
    the motor speed may be cut by about a third.  (One revolution of
    the blower to three revolutions of the motor.)  Is it practical
    or feasible to change the blower pulley?  My main plenum is 8 x
    10, the individual room feeds are 6 inch round.
    
    /Dave

    You should be able to increase the speed, within reason, but changing
    pulley diameters.  However, realize that the blower fan is engineered
    to turn at a certain maximum speed and if you crank it up too much
    you may start eating up bearings.  You'll also put more of a load
    on the motor, and may have to go to a 1/4 or 1/3 hp motor to handle
    the increased load.

    ok, i think i understand the problem you are trying to solve.
    
    Speeding up the fan, will increase the flow, but not necessarily
    the time it will take to heat the room. Lets digress for a minute.
    I'd like to use "water" as a medium to explain my point.
    A friend mine has a garden in the back part of his property.
    Its approximately 300 ft. from the house. Problem: can't
    adequately run a sprinkler to water when necessary. It would
    only cover a 10 ft. area.  He has a well, and we thought that
    if he could increase the pressure, the sprinkler would
    work as if it were 10 ft. from the house. Wrong;;;;;
    We called the company that installed the pump etc.
    and we found that pressure, was a constant, and the only
    way to increase "volume" was to increase the hose size.
    Analagous to your problem, in my opinion increasing the
    size of you ducts and leaving the blower speed as it was
    may solve the problem. We have a facilities organization
    in this building, with heating and air conditioning
    mechanics. If you'd like i'll pose this question to them.
    
    jim.

    1/6 horsepower sounds very small, are you sure this furnace is sized
    correctly for your house?  Do you have dampers in the round ducts
    as they depart from the main trunk line, or are you using the wall
    registers to balance the system?  It is easier to balance the system
    with the dampers in the round ducts and tends to cut down any whistling
    that may occur when you close the wall registers down. The 6" round
    duct should do the job but I doubt you can increase the blower
    speed enough with that 1/6th horsepower motor, 1/3rd is probably
    where I'd start.
    
    People can offer suggestions as to what to try but you might want
    to have a few heating contractors come in and look the system over
    before you start spending money trying different things.
    If they are good with forced air systems they should be able to
    measure the air flow in the ducts and tell you where improvements
    may be made.

    Nick    

    I recently had a short duct made for me to run some hot air into
    the playroom in my basement. The fellow who made it for me said
    that I could get an 8"x4" register to cover the new duct. Well
    AFTER I installed the new duct I started looking around in HW
    stores for a registers (one with a damper so I can regulate it
    and direct it down a bit). I've been to a handful of stores and
    it seems like 10"x4" is the popular size along with some others,
    but no 8x4's anywhere. Any suggestions for where I could get this
    apparrently odd-size register??
    
    -Peter
    

Just a whim but spags has quite a few shelves of these...

    Thanks - but I spoke to a friend who works in that section at Spags
    and he says they don't carry them that size either.
    Any other suggestions??
    

RE: .15

	You might try Sommerville Lumber in Westboro...

    Look in the yellow pages for a sheet metal supply house, or plumbing
    supply house. They may have to order it since it is an "odd" size.
    
    Nick

    
    
    	Makis in Fitchburg has them 8X4. I just bought one for a cold
    air return duct and it is regulated by an adjustable damper. The
    only problem is there painted a puke green colour but it was no
    match for my mighty spray gun.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    I know this is going to sound REALLLL ignorant but I figured I'd
    go ahead anyway.  
    
    My hub and I are relatively new homeowners (one year).  Along with
    this fact I must add that we are not "handy around the house". 
    In fact, we looked at a blown fuse once wondering what to do with
    it.  Anyway, we have a question.
    
    Is one supposed to get their gas furnace maintained regularly by
    a responsible individual (this being someone "handy around the house"
    or a person for hire)?  I keep thinking we should do this but when
    I looked in the yellow pages for someone, none could be found.
    We also have a built-in humidifier on the furnace that is not working
    and we don't know why.  All I know is that when I opened the top
    there was a small toxic waste dump floating in it.  With the static
    charges we've been getting lately I'd love to get the humidifier
    fixed...my cats are going insane...whenever we touch them they
    practically explode!   I figured all we have to do is clean the
    sucker out but the electric cord sneaks around the furnace and
    disappears between some obscure ductwork.  I'm bright enough to
    know not to try anything just in case the humidifier is plugged
    in.
    
    Anyway, can someone give me advise on how to proceed?  If you know
    of some dandy maintenance person who could do the necessary "stuff"
    could you give me their name and number?  We live in Nashua.  Oh
    yes, the house is 45 years old and in great condition...except for
    the toxic dump.
    
    Thanks alot Gang!
    

      I don't know anything about gas furnaces so I pass on that one.
    As far as the humidifier is concerned, there should be instructions
    nearby or glue'd right to the furnace explaining how to clean it
    as well as telling you to clean it about once a month.  You will
    need to shut off its water supply and (assuming they are all about
    equal) remove the tank/bucket of water and clean it out.  The
    humidifier should have its own control or humidistat, ideally right 
    next to the thermostat.  I'm assuming that your humidifier is attached
    directly to the ductwork and if so, should fit in that category
    of generic humidifiers.  If the above assumptions are correct and
    your humidifier is wired properly, it will only go on when the blower
    is on. 
    
    -Jim
    

    We have a Gas Service Contract with the Gas Company that we pay
    $28.00/year.  If we have any problems, everything is covered.  It
    has been well worth it for us. You could check the coverage for
    your area/company.

If its a gas FHA furnace, you should never need any maintenance.  Just 
change the filter (you can get them for less than $1, just make sure 
its the right size).

on the humidifier - it needs to have some sort of regular water 
treatment or the insides will mildew.  I called the manufacturer of 
mine (skuttle) and found that they had a ping-pong-ball-size part that 
you dropped in the water and keeps the water de-mildewed for 3 months
or so.  If there are no instructions, I would contact the
manufacturer, as that's all a local repair place will do. 

your best bet for the short term is to clean it out, and pour in some 
humidifier water treatment (again, any hardware store) every few days 
or so

hope this helps
/j

    Having moved into two houses with poorly maintained humidifiers...
    
    You have to clean them thoroughly approx twice per heating season.
    And then drain, clean, and dry them for the summer season.   If
    this is not done, the mineral buildup and/or stagnation from the
    water will total a humidifier very quickly.  I wound up buying new
    ones in each case.
    
    

    Re: .4
    
      What do you mean by 'total a humidifier'?  They are fairly simple
    but relatively expensive for what you are getting.  The float mechanism
    on mine was trashed from the mineral content/corrosion so I bought
    a new 'generic' float mechanism for $10.  I was going to buy a new
    humidifer because of how bad it looked from the outside and assumed
    there was nothing left of it to use. I got a brochure on one from
    my oil company it sounded like a fairly simple device. I opened
    mine up and found out that it really is simple. There are only a
    few parts to it so repair can't be that bad.  These are virtually
    identical to the console type humidifiers but on a much smaller
    scale.
    
    -Jim
    
    

    Gas FHA furnace maintenance should include:
    
    	1. Filter replacement or cleaning if it is a permanent type
    	   or electrostatic unit.
    
    	2. Oiling of blower motor and any bearings in the blower
    	   cage. If it is a belt drive unit the belt should be inspected
    	   for wear and tension checked.
    
    	3. The heat exchanger should be inspected and vacuumed out.
           You'd be amazed at how much particulate matter can accumulate.
    
    	4. If it is a newer high efficiency furnace it may have a
           forced draft blower. The motor on this requires oiling, mine
           calls for a special oil which I suspect is a synthetic oil
     	   to withstand the high temperatures.
    
    	5. The "smoke" pipe should be inspected for corrosion and since
           it usually isn't too hard to remove it would be wise to check
    	   inside for any accumulated deposits. There is usually only
    	   a slight amount with older gas furnaces but since it probably
    	   hasn't been check since the furnace was installed it wouldn't
    	   hurt.
    	
    	   New high efficiency gas furnaces output a lot of water vapor
    	   that can corrode a galvanized smoke pipe. Units in the 80%
    	   efficiency range should probably use stainless smoke pipe
    	   to avoid any problems. Units in the 90% range usually
           call for PVC pipe.
    
    	6. Humidifiers should be drained and thoroughly cleaned at the
    	   beginning of the heating season. About once a month the unit
    	   should be drained to eliminate the build up of mineral
     	   deposits.
    
    	   If the humidifier is installed directly over furnace heat
    	   exchanger pay special attention to cleaning or have the
    	   humidifier disconnected. A small water leak onto a hot
    	   heat exchanger will turn your furnace into scrap metal in
    	   no time.

    Most of these things are simple to DIY, but if you don't want to
    try is shouldn't cost much to have someone come and check the
    unit over.
    
    Nick

    I have forced hot air heating in my new house and the builder put
    the stack through the middle of the house.  Well the second floor
    is unfinished in this house.  When I tried to layout the second
    floor the stack for the heater goes through the middle of my hall
    way.  I need to put a 45 degree bend in the stack so it can sit
    back further in the hall way.  What I wanted to know is where can
    I get some 45 degree elbows for the stack.  The pipe has a 10 inch diamater
    and is a double walled pipe. Also does any one know how much something
    like this cost, I heard it is pretty expensive stuff, I wonder how
    much the builders mistake will cost me.  Any helpfull hints would
    be greatly appreciated.. Thanks
    
    
    Joe

If you can't fight it can you join it? IE put a secondary space
heater in place and put a T for the secondary heater exhaust
vent.

/cal

    	I check out your friendly sheet metal factory.  They can bend
    you up most any shapes and sizes at surprising low costs.  I needed
    a 90� transition piece from a 6" round to a 1.5"x6 rectangle to
    blow the heat from under the kitchen cabinets.  The total cost
    to have the part made was $15.
    
    					=Ralph=

    The double wall pipe may be the type with a concrete liner between the
    two layers of metal. Some of these prefab chimneys are even triple wall
    pipe. I've never seen elbows in this stuff, but that doesn't mean they
    don't exist. The stuff is pretty expensive, years ago it used to cost
    about $1 per inch. 
    
    Without knowing what type you have and who the manufacturer is you
    may have trouble finding the correct type that will mate with what
    you already have. They usually have some type of twist lock connection
    between the individual pieces.
    
    Nick

    Yes, 45s and 90s are available.  You probably will need to get the
    same brand as what you have.  There ought to be a label, someplace,
    and it may be stamped on the twist-lock joint so you'll have to
    take the chimney apart to find it.
    Two common brands are Metalbestos and Pro-Jet; there are probably
    others.  Any woodstove shop will probably sell some kind of prefab
    chimney.

    This may seem like a strange question but,
    
    We are painting rooms and my two year old rolled a rubber
    raquetball into an FHA heating vent.  Down the vent it
    went.
    
    Questions:  should I care and try to get it out?
                could it get to hot and cause a hazard?
                any suggestions on how to get it out?
    
    We have not even moved in yet so I don't know much about
    these FHA systems.                       
                

    Depends on where it went.
    
    Case (1)
    
    If it's on the hot (supply) side, the worst case is it'll roll all
    the way down and sit on top of the heat exchanger, which gets very
    hot - I certainly wouldn't trust a rubber ball to not melt, stink,
    or do something else unpleasant.
    
    If it hasn't reached the furnace, it may someday.  Still try to
    get it out.  
    
        
    Case (2)
    
    If it's on the the return side and goes all the way to the furnace,
    it will wind up on top of the filter which is accessible and you
    can get it out.
    
    If it hasn't reached the furnace in this case, don't worry about
    it.
  
    

    Do you know anybody with one of those long skinny doggies ....

    I got lucky.  I reached down into the vent and found the ball.
    
    That was to easy.  Thanks for the replies.  

My family once had a hamster, named Harriette, who would have been 
able to help you get acquainted with your heating system.  She used
to break out of her cage and head directly for the nearest register.
Down, down, down she would go, daring us to find her.  I can still
vividly recall my family in the basement, flashlights in hand, ears
pressed up to the ductwork, listening for the scratch of hamster
toenails on steel.  We'd always find her, dusty as can be, making
her way towards the furnace.

Fortunately, we were able to redesign her cage (to hold her in) before
winter set in.

Dan

    Has anyone had their FHA ducts cleaned?  I checked one of my cold
    air returns and found a ton of dust, matted like fiberglas.  There's
    a local company that will clean out each one.  His pitch is reduction
    of colds, better duct efficiency and generally cleaner air.  Your
    comments welcome.
    
    
    tnx,
    
    Chris

    What'll they think of next?!!  How much do they charge for this
    cleaning service?  How do they do it?
    
    Phil

    	I clean mine every year with my SHOPVAC and a couple of extension
    hoses.  The cold air return gets lots of dust, while the hot air
    registers get stuff dropped into them.
    	Does this person take the ductwork apart?
    				=Ralph=

    The person said he spends the whole day going from room to room,
    duct to duct, opening each one and vacuums out the crud.  For this
    he charges $450.00.  It may just be a bargain if 25 years of dust
    is laying 2 inches thick in my ducts.
    
    C

    I'm going to be having a new furnace (oil fired forced hot air)
    put in. The contractor recommended swapping the cold (return) air duct 
    and the hot air duct at the furnace, so that every hot vent in the
    house would be then be a cold vent and every cold vent would then
    be a hot vent. 
    
    Presently, all the cold (return) air vents are on the outside walls
    and all the hot air vents are on the inner walls. He explained that
    in the 1940's, when my house was built, this was common practice.
    But that they now recognize this as less efficient.
    
    He told me that the hot air should enter the room from the outside
    walls and the cold air should return to the furnace from the inner
    walls so that you'd be pumping hot air to the outside of the house
    and circulating it to the center of the house back to the furnace.
                                       
    He also said it's no big deal to swap them when they put in the
    new furnace.
    
    Has anyone had this done ? Notice any improvement ?
    
    thanks alot 
                

>    Presently, all the cold (return) air vents are on the outside walls
>    and all the hot air vents are on the inner walls. He explained that
>    in the 1940's, when my house was built, this was common practice.
>    But that they now recognize this as less efficient.

Makes some sense, but I'd have one major concern.  Back in the 40's, they also 
didn't insulate nearly as well as they do today.  If those outside-wall vents 
are not insulated VERY well, you're going to lose a lot of heat having the 
heated air right next to the great outdoors.  When those ducts are used for 
returning cold air, the temperature differential, and thus the heat loss, are 
not nearly as great.  You could very easily LOSE heat by switching your ducts.

Paul

Right on both counts - makes sense to heat near the windows, return
from the other end of the room - but the ducts may not be
<sufficiently> insulated.  I had some ducts running in my garage, the
ones I could access had about 1/2" insulation, but were still dropping
about 40 deg (140deg -> 100deg).  Further insulation (double
fiberglass duct wrap) changed that to 15deg loss.  Unfortunately, one
run was in the ceiling and is thus still a fairly useless vent. 

Problem is, if you can't get to the ducts, the only way to know is to 
try it on a real cold night, and the next one is scheduled for next 
December.

Get an oven thermometer - the ducts should give you at least 130 deg 
to be effective (tip a contractor gave me)

    I wouldn't do it. I many homes they don't even use ducts for return
    air but instead just put a metal pan over the joists or use an existing
    joist cavity to transport the return air. You really didn't care
    too much if these "ducts" leaked.
    
    Switching the ducts around could send the warm air flowing through
    the walls more than the rooms.
    
    Nick

Now that its really summer, I'm really going to go down and caulk all 
the cracks in the main duct of my FHA heating system.  Measurements I 
took last winter show that the air temperature in the ducts reaches 
160degF.  This suggests that the metal gets even warmer.  My question:

Is it ok to use regular GE Silicone II to seal the ducts, is there 
something better?

			thanx

    Jeff,
    	I used GE silicone II on my ductwork seams and it worked fine.
    After the calk dried I also used duct tape over the seams.  The
    results were great, the temp of my basement dropped 10�F.  This
    year I also insulated the main heat stack.
    	GE silicone is great stuff.  I ran thermocycling test on it for
    use as a chip encapsulant and it lasted through hundreds of -50�C
    to +125�C cycles.
    					=Ralph=

    Here's the problem -- my house is heated with Propane (great!),
    but the builders buried the tank in the front yard which is also
    great except that they left the top of the tank sticking up in the
    middle of the yard.  It sticks up about 20" out of the ground and
    is a round black cylinder with a lid that is UGLY. 
    
    I am trying to come up with a clever way to disguise this thing
    -- any ideas?  It cannot be totally covered because the gas company
    needs to be able to open the lid to check the gauge.
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    

    i'd consider getting one of those 1/2 wine barrel planters and
    putting it over the tank, upside down.  you could then put some
    potted plants on it.
    
    why didn't they put it in the back yard?
    
    bs

    re .2
    
    The only reason I can think of is that there's a lot of rock in
    the back, so it must have been easier to dig up the front.
    
    I've considered the barrel approach, but I'm wondering how heavy
    one of those are.  As I said, the gas company needs to be able to
    access the gauge.  I also thought about taking one of those planters
    and cutting out the bottom to fit it over the tank that way -- but
    I don't know what type of tools I would need to cut out the bottom.

    You don't happen to live on Searles Rd in Nashua, do you. 
    
    I've been driving by some new houses that had this thing in their
    front yard and have been trying to guess what it might be for. 
    I can't imagine it being propane though.  There is gas in the street.
    Unless there was so much ledge they didn't want to put the gas lines
    through.
    
    It is a black circular thing as you describe about 10" in diameter.
    I can't imagine what else it would be for.

    
    Plant shrubberies in a semi-circle around it and leave a gap in
    the back for access. I guarantee that the gas service company will
    not agree with being forced to move anything and you're likely to
    get refused delivery. Our gas service company will send us an
    "averaged" bill if they can't get to our meter... the "average"
    is normally a good 50% above the usual bill.
    
    							* MAC *

    re .4
    
    You got it!  Apparently they couldn't put in natural gas lines,
    so all the houses have propane tanks buried in the front yard. 
    The tank is the size of a mini-submarine, but the thing that sticks
    out is simply a cover over the gauge on the top of the tank.

    Like many, I have a garage with no heat and wimpy electrical service.
    Fortunately, it is insulated and sealed reasonably well.
    For the relatively limited amount of time I spend in the garage,
    what's the consensus on the portable propane heaters?  I think one
    type is called a 'Salamander'.
                                                           
    I'm biased against kerosene heaters because the soot and smell make
    them unattractive.
    
    I do automotive maintenance, general house maintenance projects,
    and the like.
    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
    

While there aren't any other notes on portable propane heaters, there are 
several on room-sized gas heaters.  See notes 294, 514, 849, 1168, 1632

Paul

Regarding .0's reference to kerosene heaters being smelly and sooty:  Have 
you seen one recently?  I've used them extensively and the smell is only 
noticable for a minute when it's turned off.  As far as soot goes, I can 
only assume your speaking from heresay, there just isn't any.  I personally
would consider one the ideal garage heater.  Perhaps you should check into
this further. 

Craig 

    We've also had very good experience with a kerosene heater.
    Just as .2 said, they smell only when first started or extinguished.
    We have ours sitting inside our fireplace and open the vent when
    starting or extinguishing it, and there's no smell.  It's
    even possible to get a catalytic converter you hang over the
    flame to do an even better job of killing off the odor.
    
    I second the idea of using one as a garage heater.  They're
    also quite safe (although experiences with the old-technology ones
    have caused people to think otherwise).

      You  might  also  want  to try one of those catalytic heaters that
      Coleman and others sell for camping.  I've never use  one  myself,
      but some folks like them.
      
      As  for  Kerosene  --  I  agree  with  comments that they're a lot
      "nicer" than they used to be.

    
    I would check with your local fire department.  Kerosene heaters
    in the Comm. of Mass. are ILLEGAL in certain installtions.
    
    I do not remember the exact rule, but (Don't quote me please) if
    your garage is attached to the house I believe it is illegal.  
    
    If I remeber you can only use them in contruction and certain business
    enviornments in the State of Mass.
    
    Again, I would check before spending the money!
    
    Bob

    There are outside-vented kerosene heaters that are okay, I think.
    Regardless of the type of heater (kerosene, propane, or whatever)
    I think I'd want it vented outside if it's used in any sort of
    enclosed space.  
    I asked my local fire chief about the portable kerosene heaters;
    he turned kind of queasy looking and altogether gave the impression
    that he would be MUCH happier if I didn't use one in the basement,
    thank you.

    My local hardware store salesperson said the Commonwealth recently
    passed a law that prohibits the sale of kero heaters.  That added
    to my bias.  I have to agree with the improvement in technology:
    I saw one in action last night and there was no odor or soot.
    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
    

    Use of unvented kerosene heaters is illegal in Mass, as well
    as several other states.  Use of VENTED kerosene heaters
    is not illegal.  The restrictions apply to their use within
    a living space (whatever that is).
    
    The laws against kerosene heaters seem, in my opinion, to be
    an attempt to prevent idiots from killing themselves.  For example,
    some people would put them in a tiny enclosed space with no
    ventilation, others would put them in almost direct contact
    with flammable material, others would try to use gasoline in them,
    etc, etc, I'm sure you get the idea.
    
    For three years we used a kerosene heater in our home.  We set
    it in the fireplace, well away from anything flammable, and well
    out of the way.  It cut our heating cost a couple of hundred dollars
    even after taking into account the kerosene we had to buy.
    It kept our living room toasty warm, the remainder of our house
    stayed much cooler.
    
    We stopped using it mainly because of the daily ritual of filling
    it with kerosene and having to clean the wick every so often.  It
    just got to be tiring.  But it was sure nice to have an extra hot
    spot to stand when you came inside and had a chill.
    
    During power outage last winter we started it up again, and it kept
    us warm for the several hours the power was off.
    
    Kerosene is quite easy to find.  The chances of getting caught
    using a heater are practically zip.
    

While I can't speak for the legality of your situation (taxachussetts is
a weird state! 8^) ..  I can vouch for their applicability as a garage
heater.   I bought a 50,000 BTU kerosene space heater for my garage, to
keep me toasty while I work on some projects that are too big for my
basement workshop.   I ran a dedicated outlet for it, (not necessary,
just convenient) with a switch.   10 minutes before I go out there, I
hit the garage door opener to crack the seal about 1", and throw the switch.

The heater raises the temp to about 65 degrees in 10-20 minutes...more
if strong wind and sub-zero, but rarely do I need to leave it on all the
time.

Highly recommended for responsible, intellegent adults.  Apparently,
Massachussetts doesn't think they have any!  8^)

Bob

    Re .8: That sounds like the ticket.  Three questions so I can size
           a unit:
    
           1. How big is your garage?  
    
           2. Is it insulated?  R-value guesstimate?
    
           3. The 'dedicated outlet': Is that for an automated
              starter?  The only kero units I've seen that have
              anything besides a match to light them use a battery
              driven glow plug.
    
           4. (Okay, I lied about the number of questions...I'm from
               Mass...we're experts at lying) Do you crack the seal
               at blast off to provide combustion air, or to provide
               freash air for breathing?
    
    Thanks for the info.  Regards,
    
    John Kelly
    

>>           1. How big is your garage?  

It's a two car garage that's roughly 10 ft to the ceiling (guesstimate)
    
>>           2. Is it insulated?  R-value guesstimate?

Nope...just the wall between the garage and the house...(oh yeah, it's
an attached garage, slab floor, block foundation, sheet rock on two 
walls)
    
>>           3. The 'dedicated outlet': Is that for an automated
>>              starter?  The only kero units I've seen that have
>>              anything besides a match to light them use a battery
>>              driven glow plug.

I think we're talking two different types of kerosene heater here.  Mine
is shaped something like the poor diagram that follows:

         /--------------------------------\
  fan >  |                                 | > Forced Hot Air 
         |_________________________________|
           |                |
         |----------------------------------|

    Thanks for the info...I think that's just what I need.
    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
    
    
    

 
[Posted for a friend who can't currenty access this file.....]
 
"I have an evaporative-drum humidifier on the side of the return of my
FHA furnace, AND I HATE IT!!!!! It's probably one of the better systems
(Skuttle), but the mineral buildup in the pan, and the mold at the
wet/dry boundaries in the humidifier make the thing a pain to clean, and
add unhealthy particles to the air.  THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY!!!
 
My question is whether anyone has seen or used better humidification
solutions.  Some ideas I have been given include putting a kitchen-sink
type mineral filter on the water line, or using a spray type or even
ultrasonic (whole-house?) humidifier.  Is there anyone out there who has
FHA-(gas) whole-house humidification solutions they're happy with? 
 
thanks in advance

    

I have a  Sears  evaporative  humidifier,  but  on the supply, not return side.
When I installed it, it seemed like I would be better off adding humidity AFTER
heating the air since the  heating  process  also dries the air.  I also run it
100% of the time that the furnace fan runs.  The only problem in about 15 years
is that the sleeve bearings on the  motor  (not  the drum motor) gave away last
winter - new motor for $40 and 15 minutes labor.

The Sears has a baffle and plug assembly that  drains  off some of the water as
it runs thereby keeping lime buildup and "scum" to a  minimum.    I have run it
with and without the auto drain and there is definately a difference.  With the
auto-drain, there is no scum;  you still get some lime buildup,  however.  Once
or twice a season I take a putty knife and chip away the lime at the water line
on on the innersides of the plastic pan and replace the media.  When I have let
it go too far, all I do is pour some Muriatic acid over the lime  and  watch it
fizz away.

I  would  humbly suggest that the Skuttle is not necessarily "one of the better
systems".

Dave

I also had the Sears unit in my last house. Worked as well as described in
the last reply.

One caution I am aware of. The humidifier should always be placed on the 
supply side. Placed on the return side you run the risk of rusting out your
heater. The fan continues to run while the plenum cools down (to the shut off
temp) drawing moisture over the now cooling fins and pipes. It condenses and
causes rust.

						Mark

	I'd like to give a try at cleaning my FHA return ducts with my
	shop-vac, BUT, 

	what do I do about the 2 upstairs duct that have right-angle
	bends in them, right at the register?

	Also, the duckwork in my upstairs 2nd bedroom SQUEAKS when the floor
	is walked on!!!  ARGHH!!   The heating ducts comes up the center 
	of the townhouse, splits, then travels under the bedroom floors 
	to exit by the bedroom windows.  Do I have to take up the carpet and
	rip up the flooring to WD-40 this sucker???

	The squeak is quite audible on the first floor - I'm glad I don't
	have any roommates with SO's to contend with!!  :-)

			Josh

	To reopen this topic....
    
        re.2  I'd also like to clean my ductwork with my shop vac. but
    I don't understand how you can get the hose past the register opening
    (after removing the register of course).  Do you disassemble the
    ductwork for this?  Doesn't seem like it would be that easy to do.
    As in .4 I also have right angle bends at the register.
    
    George

    I vac mine out using the extra 25' hose for my central vac. The handle
    end is the same size as the end that normaly goes into the wall but
    wont go around the bends,ect. so I install it backwards and voila I
    have a central duct vac system. Maybe one could rent or borrow a
    section of long hose? BTW-The hose for my central vac is 1�" -vs-
    the 3" stuff used on most shop vacs which allows it to negotiate bends
    and tight quarters better.
    
    -j

    My house is heated by liquid propane, my current gas company is
    Suburban Propane in Milford, NH.  Over the last few months, the price
    has risen from about $1/gal. to the last delivery which was $1.42/gal. 
    It seems like this is tooooooo much for propane.
    
    What are other people paying in So. N.H., and what gas companies do you
    use?

Petrolane in Salem, NH is even more berserk, about $1.70 a gal.  There's a new 
outfit - something like "Granite State Propane", who have come into business in 
the past couple of years because they saw - so they say - that the existing 
companies were ripping people off.  They figured they could still make a profit 
selling for less.  We are planning on switching to them, they said their 
current price is $1.30, with a 5% discount for paying cash, and a 5% discount 
for senior citizens.  If there's a cheaper alternative around I'd love to hear 
it.

Paul

    Middle of December - $1.27
    Beginning Of Feb -   $1.64
    
    Sahagan Oil and Gas
    
    Edd
    

    
    Did you also get a MEGA-BILL from Suburban recently? The went into
    "monitor mode" for a while... where they watch your tank level instead
    of topping it up... and then bring one big load at once!
    
    							* MAC *

    I live in Mass and have Jeffery Philbin Gas/Oil company.  I was paying
    1.62 at the highest and now I just rec'd a letter saying they are
    dropping it back down to 1.09.  Get Real!  No discount for paying on
    time, only a late fee.
    
    I'm stuck with them because my tank is a 250 gal underground.  No way I
    can switch because they own it.
    
    /lb

    
>    I'm stuck with them because my tank is a 250 gal underground.  No way I
>    can switch because they own it.
 
    
    
    You *might*  (have  to  calculate  the payback time)
    find it  cheaper  to buy a new tank, that you own, so you can buy where
    you want.
    
    my $0.02
    
    gjd
    
    

    Thanks but I don't own the land....bummer.
    
    I was thinking of discontinuing service and going with Boston gas
    (underground pipe) they are much cheaper (in my area at least) but then
    again....I don't own the land, it would kill me to sink thousands of
    dollars into the ground.
    
    /lb

    regarding .4
    >>>...they own it.
    
    Maybe they'll sell it to you and leave it in place.
    
    If they're not amenable to that, and you want to buy
    a tank of your own, maybe you can demand that they remove
    it from your yard.  Note that removal of an underground
    tank, if done according to Mass. regulations, is VERY
    expensive.  I seem to recall on This Old House when they
    removed a tank and it cost a couple grand or more.  Faced
    with this request from you they might just decide to sell
    you the tank, as is, in the ground.

    About natural gas - last time I checked (in Mass) the gas company
    would run (for free) a gas line up to 100 feet to your house if you were
    going to convert to gas.  The only restriction was that your
    house had to have a gas main in the street within that 100 feet.
    If you wound up renting a burner from them, they would do all
    the interior connections for free also.  Worth a call.

>                      <<< Note 3727.8 by VINO::DZIEDZIC >>>
>                             -< Gas hookup free? >-
>
>    About natural gas - last time I checked (in Mass) the gas company
>    would run (for free) a gas line up to 100 feet to your house if you were
>    going to convert to gas.  The only restriction was that your
>    house had to have a gas main in the street within that 100 feet.
>    If you wound up renting a burner from them, they would do all
>    the interior connections for free also.  Worth a call.

The last time I checked with Boston Gas was about 1 year and a half 
or two years ago.  There is a main within 100' of my house.
Connecting is not free.  They charge a modest fixed charge (a couple of 
hundred dolars for the first 20', then a god-awful amount PER FOOT
for the rest.  I put the actual number out of my mind since it was so bad.
I think the total charge would have been around $3000.
If I had been converting my heat to gas, they would have paid for only 
HALF of the total charge.

- tom]

    I checked it out too and Boston Gas would charge me a rate out of this
    world for a conversion.  I would have to pay to get the part of the
    road re-paved and for a plumber to convert all my appliances over to
    natural gas (stove/oven, water heater and furnace).  The bottom line
    was something like 2500.  
    
    It's crazy!  I plan on living there for only 5 or so more years and
    then selling anyhow.  It wouldn't make sense for me to invest the
    money.
    
    /lb

>                 <<< Note 3727.4 by MANTIS::BASSETT "Design" >>>
>
>    I live in Mass and have Jeffery Philbin Gas/Oil company.  
>    I'm stuck with them because my tank is a 250 gal underground.
    
    Can you put a propane tank underground?  I thought they had to be
    exposed.  We want to put a propane cooktop/grill in the new house we're
    planning to build, and don't really want to have a couple of old
    beat-up tanks in back of the house.
    
    How much propane do you go through in a month/year if it's just used
    for cooking?  Can you buy propane tanks, or do they only rent them? 
    I've never had natural gas or propane in a house, but we got sold on it
    for cooking by having it in the camper. 

    Are you considering putting a tank in the ground just for cooking with
    it?  If you just cook with it you won't be using much at all and might
    want to just get the tanks that come and replace every other month or
    so.  I don't think you rent or can buy those they just re-fill them.  They
    own them and you just buy the gas.  Am I right?  
    
    /lb

I read in other notes of people who buried their propane tanks (legally).
Just call your local propane dealer.  Most propane places let you "borrow"
the tank if you keep it above ground and buy gas from them.  If you
bury it then you have to buy the tank.
-Larry 

    re: price of propane
    
    I am planning to build a log home in Central Vt.  Last weekend, while
    there, I checked at Perry's Oil in Bradford, and they offered:
    
    a. to install a 350 to 500 gal tank and up to 100 ft of copper line to
    the house...for no charge.  (they own the tank, of course)
    
    b. provide monthly or bi-monthly service whether I am there or not
    
    c. sell the gas for 1.08 per gallon and reduce the rate to 1.03 per
    gallon if I pay within 10 days.  
    
    I checked with my uncle, a customer of theirs for many years...that is
    exactly what they charge him.
    
    How can a VT dealer sell gas for that much less than I read in this
    notesfile???
    
    QUESTION:
    
    I have not yet built the home...the decision to heat with gas is not
    cast in stone.  Is there a better way?  The house will have to be
    maintained at above freezing while we are not there...so exclusively
    using wood is out.
    
    tony

    re: .8, .9 and .10
    I checked last week with Boston Gas... If I convert to gas HEAT, or use
    gas HEAT for the addition we are putting on the house in Concord, they
    will run a gas line to the house (less than 100 ft from where it ends
    at my next-door neighbor's) for slightly more than $1000.  If I have
    them connect gas, but do not choose to HEAT the house, the charge is
    upped 40%.
    
    tony	who is still undecided about it
    

    re: .11
    yes, you can install propane tanks underground.  the underground tanks
    are painted black, and the above ground ones are sort of silver (or
    white) to reflect heat.  when i talked with Perry Oil in Vt last
    weekend, they suggested underground...and they will install their tank
    there.  I just had to excavate for it and fill over it.  It is much
    less of an eye-sore, and probably safer, too.  
    
    i am not sure if there are other differences between the types of tanks
    (under vs. above)
    
    tony

    The price has now changed for the conversion form P to N.  It was about
    $1000 for each line but since I live in a mobile home park they will
    connect two at a time and each two neighbors share the cost.
    
    Now it is a little more affordable.  My current gas company will end up
    charging me more because I will be the only one in the park using his
    services!  Pretty tacky, eh?!
    
    /lb

    I am interested in finding the ball-park numbers for the following
    questions.
    
    	For an average house 3br/7rm with average use of heat & cooking
    how often the propane gas tank has to be refilled.
    
    Tank size	Season
    
    500 Gal	Summer
    500 Gal     Winter
    1000 Gal 	Summer
    1000 Gal	Winter
    
    Thanks,
    Robert

    Gee, I just happen to have a 3 BR, 7 RM house heated with propane.
    
    Summer: (May 1 thru mid-Oct.) 150 - 200 gallons.
    
    Winter: (all year minus above) Typically 100 to 150 gallons per month.
    
    Usage: FHA heat, 40 gal. hot water, stove. My house is not terrible
    efficient, but it is insulated and has 20 year old storm windows.
    
    Patterns: I'm probably on the left hand side of the bell. I live alone,
    and typically let the house stay cool during the times I'm not home
    during the winter. Obviously, I don't use the same amount of fuel for
    cooking and hot water a tyical family of 4.7 people would. I generally
    heat the house to about 68 - 70 from 6:00 PM to 10:00 or 11:00, and
    push the thermostat back to 54 before retiring. The house will maintain 
    a temperature above that level without heat except for the months of
    December thru February when the furnace will run occasionally during
    the night to maintain even that temp.
    
    My 500 gallon tank is typically filled every other month during the 
    heating season, topped off in late spring, and ignored until late
    autumn.
    
    Edd
    

    It all depends on conditions....
    
    Last December (very cold month) propane FHW was the sole source of heat
    for my 4BR 9RM house, I burned up about 250 gallons.
    
    In the beginning of January I got a cord of wood for my wood stove /
    fireplace insert (not a true wood stove), burned most weekends and a
    few weekday evenings (no one home during the day house is kept at 64),
    and I only used 200 gallons (and all of the wood) in the next three
    months.
    
    I don't cook with gas, only heat and the Dryer, might use 100 gallons
    from may through oct.
    
    Chris.

    I would like to add an LP gas space heater to my cottage on the cape.
    Are there specific guidelines as to where you may or may not place the
    vent? How close to a window can the vent be placed? 
    
    I would like to place the heater on the gable end of the cottage but I
    am concerned about the gable vent which would be about 8 ft above the 
    heater vent. The cottage has cathedral ceilings so the gable vent is
    visible from inside the bedroom. If I install the heater on the front 
    of the cottage I start to get very close to the bedroom window. 
    
    I would like to do the installation and then call the gas co to come
    and hook it up. I've been told that if the installation is illegal
    they, the gas co, will not hook it up. 
    
    Any help is appreciated.
    
    Steve

    I have a real problem for you engineering-analytical-types out there!
    
    I have an 82,000 BTU furnace with FHA for a house that is 27.5x32
    and 7'4" high.  It has had 5 registers with 5 4" ducts running from
    the relatively small plenum.  This has been very very comfortable
    so far.  BUT....I am putting on a second floor (29x32x8).  My heating 
    contractor's supplier says I need about 100-110k BTU for "adequate
    heat."  But we cannot put in a new furnace right now, unless we
    absolutely have to.  We like the house cool, especially sleeping
    areas, so we are hoping the existing furnace would suffice for us
    for the time being.  We also have extra insulation upstairs, 4 big
    southerly windows, and an open stairway to allow heat to rise.
           
    To get the heat up, we are putting in 2 ducts going up from the
    basement in opposite corners of the house.  Then they will run along
    with the floor joists on one side and one of them will be a raised
    duct along one wall.  
    
    THe heating contractor's supplier says he has to put in 2 8x10 ducts
    up in each corner.  Although he can only fit 2 4x10 inch duct out
    of the plenum.  He is stepping up to the larger duct once he leaves
    the plenum.   My concerns are: 
    
    -	That our limited heating resources will be wasted filling this
    large duct running across the basement and up through the walls
    before it even gets to living area.  Probably 35-40 feet before
    it gets up there!  
    
    -	That all the heat will go upstairs, when we would probably like
    to have 60-66% downstairs and 33-40% upstairs.
    
    How should we manage to allocate this heat?  What are the implications
    when our furnace does die and we get a bigger one?  We would like
    not to have to re-run duct work.  Is it at all practical or useful
    to go with the larger duct but constrict flow through it somehow?
    
    -	That 
    
    
    
    
    
    
    The heating contractor's supplier told the heating contractor to
    put in  

    1. BTU requirement:  Since most of the heat loss is upward, thru the
    roof - if you are improving the roof insulation re. current, it is
    possible that the heat loss for the house will by similar to the
    current, single story house. Try it before you invest in a bigger
    burner.
    2. Heat allocation:  The quantity of air delivered at each outlet
    should be adjustable. This is usually done by dampers at the outlet,
    typically 'opposed-blade dampers'. These work, but are noisy and
    complicated devices that can rattle and jam.  A better solution is
    'splitter' type adjustable dampers in the ducts remote from the
    outlets. You need access to the portion of the duct with the splitter
    to use these. They must be installed with the ductwork. - Chris

    
    I'm building a house on weekends, and its at the point of adding
    heating units.  I've just installed the gas lines underground to put
    the tank 130 feet from the house (better looks and safer), but when I 
    look for appliances, all the propane dealers here in rural Maine only
    carry one brand of space heater, the Empire brand.  I also have to use 
    heaters which require no electric for the thermostat, as I'm too far
    from the road to bring electric lines in.  Empire has such heaters, but 
    the models requiring no electric are not to my liking.
    
    Does anyone know of other manufacturers of gas/propane heaters.  There
    must be some competition out there - they have a monopoly in Maine.
    
    Also, does anyone know of alternative manufacturers for gas lamps?
    I'm looking for lamps with completely frosted glass chimneys.
    
    Thanks for any help....
    Eric

This note re-opened by request of the author.

Although there are other space heater notes, there are none which discuss the
particular restriction of not having electricity available. 

Paul

    RE: -1
    
    Paul, 
    	Thanks for looking over the note again and re-opening the topic.
                            
    
    Now back to the burning question (pun intended) on space heaters and 
    lamps -
        	Does anyone know of aternatives to the Empire brand of 
    appliances?   I'm looking for other brands of space heaters and lamps
    and where I may find them.
    
    Thanks, 
    Eric
    	
    
    

    One can get a copy of the Alternative Energy Sourcebook (1990) from :
    Real Goods Trading Company
    966 Mazzoni St.
    Ukiah, CA 95482
    
    For $10, they will send you a 300 page catalog/reference manual
    containing everything you could ever want for a home not serviced by
    commercial power.
    
    Rich

    Warm Morning makes space heaters that require no electricity. there are
    models for propane and natural gas, depending on what you use. I have
    a "clone" of one of these in my cabin in Maine (no electric) and use
    it to heat the bedroom (ample heat). They do have a thermostat, and
    some have a glass front, which adds a nice touch. The heat does
    disperse surprisingly well. they come in different sizes, and with a
    good sized one you could easily heat an entire downstairs area.
    They do need to be vented outside. I'll probably eventually use it to
    heat the upstairs area, and put a smaller one in the bedroom. They're
    not cheap, but neither are the Empires you're looking at.
    	Sears also carries some heaters that don't require electricity to
    control the thermostat, I'm not sure who makes them. Some of them are
    vented directly through the wall to outside, eliminating the need for
    a chimney system.
    	Since you can't have a blower/fan without elctricity, make sure
    the unit you buy doesn't require it. Most of the units have optional
    fans, that can be installed if you ever get electricity, but the
    heaters will still function without it. I'd buy another heater like I
    have in a minute, it's works extremely well.
    	As for lights, all I have at this point is a couple of Humphrey
    Opalites. They're propane, wall mounted. I like them, but they're
    not over bright, that's for sure.
    	By the way, I count on my woodstove as my primary heater, but a
    propane heater in it's place would work just as well, and would require
    less attention.
    	Propane refrigerators are also available. Only thing I haven't
    found yet is a propane well pump !!
    
    
    				good luck
    					  Steve

    Travel trailers sometimes come with heaters that don't require
    electric.  Coleman might be a source for these.  Maybe also Duo-therm?
    Understand that these are small, wouldn't heat a whole house, but might
    be the answer for single rooms.  Also, they might be had second hand
    from old trailers that are going to be stripped and scrapped by
    dealers.  
    
    These, of coures, are propane fired.
    
    Carl

< Note 4009.5 by SALEM::LAYTON >
                     -< Travel and tent trailers use 'em >-

>>>>Travel trailers sometimes come with heaters that don't require
    electric.  Coleman might be a source for these.  Maybe also Duo-therm?

The travel trailers that I know of requires 12DC battery to run
them. They use a auto ignition system with a thermostat and an
electric fan to run. 

>>>>Understand that these are small, wouldn't heat a whole house, but might
    be the answer for single rooms.

Some of them used in the larger fifth wheel
trailers are the floor space of a small cottage.

>>>>Also, they might be had second hand
    from old trailers that are going to be stripped and scrapped by
    dealers.  

Kerosene heaters might be a better solution (vented ones are
availiable so that the exhaust is vented outside.

calvin

    Not all of them use electric, especially 15-20 year old units.  They
    were "gravity" flow.  
    
    Carl

     I just got filled this past weekend and my price of propane went from 
    1.01 a gallon to 1.30. Why is this gas costing so much?? I thought oil
    was costing more because of shortages and spot market prices,why the jump
    in propane costs?? 
    
    		Wayne

Supply and demand.  As one energy source goes up in price, users switch to
cheaper sources, which drives those prices up.

I believe propane is a byproduct of oil refining.

So it should follow the price of crude oil somewhat.

-Mike

    re-.1
    Not always so there are natural gas wells that never deliver a drop
    of crude just gas(propane,methane,ect).
    
    -j
    

    $1.30??
    
    I just paid $1.50.
    
    Edd

     I called the company and it seems that the propane supply is
    controlled by the oil companys....That tells it all!
    
    		Wayne

re .24:

Propane is not natural gas.  Natural gas, or at least the burnable portion, is
mostly methane, with not much propane in most cases. The largest source of
propane is the fractional distillation and cracking of crude oil.

-Mike

    re: .24 and .27

    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that propane (C3H8) is also
    referred to as LP gas - Liquefied Petroleum.           ^ ^ Should be
    subscripts but you know. . .

    -Bob

re.27 & .28
LP Gas can also be Butane or a mixture of propane,butane along with smaller 
amounts ethane,ethylene,propylene,iso-butane and butylene (also isomers).
Principal variations in composition occur depending on whether the source
is gas wells or petroleum refineries. Propane does occur naturaly (gas wells)
though not in a pure form.
Natural gas is principally methane and ethane with some propane,butane and 
pentane. There are also non-flamible gases in natural gas mostly nitrogen and
carbon dioxide. Natural gas can also be called "utility gas" though some rural
utilitys supply LP gas.

Source:NFPA handbook 14th edition.

-j

I have a cabin in Colorado and am faced with the same problem (by the way
you may find that turning on the lights and the wood stove will heat the
place quite nicely).  Did anyone order the catalog re .2? and is it worth
the money? 

    Has anyone had their ducts professionally cleaned recently?  I just had
    a quote of $275 for cleaning 10 ducts in a 1000 sq ft cape.  Is this
    reasonable?  
    
    How long does a DIY job take with a shop-vac?  Do you feel you get most
    of the dust out of the ductwork?
    
    Bo

  Hmm, from what limited info is in this notesfile, it looks like (a)
  not too many folks bother paying for this, and (b) it runs around $300
  or more for a small house.

  Our FHA ducts have lots of bends, and there's no way I'd be able to
  get every inch of them clean. I wonder how the pro's manage, or maybe
  they don't really do much more than I would. I guess I'll just do the
  best I can on my own, and leave the filtering system to handle the
  rest. Or has anyone noticed a *big* improvement after paying to have
  it done?

	I've got to replace the propane heater in a cottage on the cape.
	the unit is 400 sq feet.

	This only needs to be heeted on weeknds during the fall, etc.
	i shut it down in november.

	How many BTUs unit will i need for adequate heat.


	Thanks

	Ken

    I would like information on using liquid propane instead of natural gas
    or oil to fire a boiler for a forced hot water heating system. I am an
    advocate of natural gas, but the house that I'm planning on buying in
    Harvard, Ma. does not have access to natural gas. 
    
    What are the pro's and con's of using LP Gas?
    
    How about LP for cooking, water heater, etc.
    
    How can you hide the LP tank? How long does a tankful last?
    
    Can you convert an oil fired boiler over to LP?
    
    What LP Boilers are best?
    
    Can LP be used in lighting fixtures (outdoor varieties)?
    
    What other important considerations are there?
    
    
    THANK YOU, IN ADVANCE, FOR YOUR ADVICE, COMMENTS, IDEAS!!!

    
>    What are the pro's and con's of using LP Gas?
 
    Con: It's not regulated, and there can be a big delta in price. (But I
         found out you can bitch and get it lowered...)
    
    pro: Clean as a whistle.
    
    con: I don't feel confident working on it myself.
       
 >   How about LP for cooking, water heater, etc.
  
    I use it for everything.
      
>    How can you hide the LP tank? How long does a tankful last?
    
 I've got a 500 gallon tank. My usage is low, runs around 700 gallons a
    year. I used 150 gallons from April to November.
     
    
    Edd

    
    
    I use it for 
    
    : cooking. P. Much better that electric.  Better control.
               c. Air tight house...indoor air polutents.
    
    :hotwater  P. cheeper that electric (at least for me)
    	       c. Have to relight it when the pilot goes out...
    
    :heating   P. High efficent system
    	       c. $$$$$$
    		- I heat with wood and oil backup...
    
    JD  

   > : cooking. P. Much better that electric.  Better control.
   >            c. Air tight house...indoor air polutents.
     
    Ditto I really do prefer it over electric for cooking.
     
   > :hotwater  P. cheeper that electric (at least for me)
   > 	       c. Have to relight it when the pilot goes out...
   
    I don't find it any cheaper but the turn around time is 
    much quicker.  Unless the gas runs out you shouldn't have
    to relight the pilot to often.
     
   > :heating   P. High efficent system
   > 	       c. $$$$$$
   > 		- I heat with wood and oil backup...

    I heat with wood with electric back up so I've no idea what 
    the cost might be.

    Joe

    Long ago, we had propane for heating and cooking, we now have natural
    gas. The only difference we ever noticed is that propane requires a
    large tank outside and it must be filled regularly.  Both of us agree
    that we would never go back to electric cooking, gas provides faster
    and more even heat on the range. So, even if we purchased/built and had
    oil for heating, we would put in gas for cooking at least.
    
    FWIW
    Dave

    I'm adding an inground propane tank next week, for a stove and furnace.
    The only difference between natural and propane is:
    
    1. You have to fill the tank
    
    2. The energy content of propane is lower than natural, so you need
       a differnt nozzel size.
    
    3. The tank can be buried without any environmental problems. I.E.
       just a permit from the fire department.
    
    Marc H.

    RE: Underground tank
    
    Be careful here.  All it takes for an underground oil tank is
    a permit from the fire dept also.  Underground tanks are definitely
    a turn-off when it comes to resale of your house.  There's just
    this fear that you don't know the condition of something you
    can't see.  You may be required to dig up your tank and replace it
    with an above ground one if you want to sell your place.
    I would recommend staying with an above ground tank.
    
    -al

>>           <<< Note 4782.6 by VIA::SUNG "Live Free or Live in MA" >>>
>>                        -< Careful w/Underground tanks >-

>>    Be careful here.  All it takes for an underground oil tank is
>>    a permit from the fire dept also.  Underground tanks are definitely
>>    a turn-off when it comes to resale of your house.  There's just

But is there a hazzard with LP?  I have an underground LP tank.  What
happens if it leaks?  Wouldn't the gas just disipate?  It shouldn't be
physically possible for it to leach into the groundwater.  Also for the
next 13 years,  the gas company owns my tank so maybe they would be 
responsible for it if it leaked.

As for LP for natural,  when you cook with LP,  you get less BTU's output
on your stove.

I like it.  Another advantage of LP over oil is that you never really need
to have the furnace serviced.  "just wait 'till something breaks" was the
word I got from a service technician.  You can also vent the exhaust through
piping instead of a chimney.

Garry

    RE: .6
    
    Not true.....the difference between gas and liquid ( I know....its
    liquid in the tank) makes the underground storage of an LP tank
    safe in terms of the environment.
    
    Marc H.

    In Teller County, Colorado, you must simply sign a one year tank lease
    on the tank, and promise to buy all your gas from the LP company with
    which you contracted.  The lease on a 1000 gallon tank is $48/year, and
    your first filling is always at a discounted price (about 58�/gallon
    right now).  When you need a refill, the cost is at market value (about
    68�/gallon right now).
    
    If, at the end of the year, you don't like your current supplier, you
    just contract with a new supplier, your old supplier takes away the
    tank (for free), and your new supplier delivers its own tank (for
    free), you pay the annual lease pittance, and you get it filled at a
    discounted price.
    
    It's great!

    $0.68 a gallon!!!!!!!
    
    ...close to 1/2 of my price!
    
    Edd

>>    $0.68 a gallon!!!!!!!

I pay $1.00 a gallon in NH.  The tank though, is free.

Garry    

    LP is heavier than air, Natural Gas is lighter. I would argue that this
    makes Natural Gas a little safer since it is not as likely to collect
    in the lowest spot of your home. Since the lowest spot of the house
    most often contains pilot lights for water heaters and furnaces...
    
    	You can buy gas detectors. I bought one from Suburban Propane for
    about $40. They look very much like a smoke detector but can detect
    either natural gas of propane. Where you mount them depends on the type
    of gas that you are using. (high for NG, low for LP).
    
    
    

    I'm not saying that a leaking LP tank would contaminate the soil
    or ground water.  What I am saying is that there is this perception
    that any property with an underground tank is bad.
    Alot of buyers want nothing to do with underground tanks no matter
    how safe they are so they often add clauses to a P&S stating that
    the seller must remove the tank at their own expense.
    
    -al

    Can you recommend a forced hot water, or steam system furnace or boiler
    that can be fired by LP?
    
    Can you convert a regular oil-fired boiler over to work with LP?
    
    How about converting a steam furnace heating plant over to LP?

    
    RE: few back..
    	Geeee I think I paid $1.20 in MA....
    
    re;
    Check out the Summerville Lumber flyer.  They have Gas fired
    boils  at decent prices.  But I think their all Natural Gas.
    No LP.  
    
    JD

    My dryer, gas stove and furnace are all powered by LP. They have
    electronic ignitors so I don't have to worry about the pilot lights.
    There's a conversion set that is needed to convert various gas powered
    items to use propane. Some items, like my stove, just needed an
    adjustment (No extra fittings...). They had to do something with my
    clothes dryer(nothing major though). The nice thing about LP - you
    can use it to power lots of things, not just the furnace. Where I am,
    there are no gas lines, just propane. 
    One of these days I'll convert the hot water heater to gas/propane. 
    
    The other nice thing about propane vs electric - if the power goes out
    in a giant blizzard (wishful thinking), I can always use the top
    burners of my stove to cook.
    				Cindy
    

    I have a question about the difference between LP and gas 'applainces'.
    What happens if you replace one for the other?  The reason I ask is, my
    husband replaced our gas hot water heater recently.  He bought a 'gas'
    hot water heater and installed it.  He paid for a gas heater, however
    the salesperson who got it for him got an LP heater, the difference in
    the two is one digit on the box didnt have LP or gas on the box.  The
    manual does refer to it as LP though.  There is no problem
    returning/replacing it.  I was wondering how hi a priority we should
    put on this (it's a pain disconnecting, emptying, returning ...)
    
    Thanks...Rhonda

    RE: .17
    
    The difference between the two is mainly in the nozzel sizes. Don't
    mix them up.....
    
    Marc H.

    I have an April-Air humidifier attached to the my FHA furnace.  I had the 
    cover off last night and noticed that the tube that goes from the water 
    reservoir to the evaporative unit (don't know if I have the terms right) 
    was not filled with water.  The water level was about 4 inches below the 
    connection to the evaporative unit.  Is this the way it should be?  When 
    the furnace blower turns on the fan on the humidifer also kicks on.
    
    How can you tell if a humidifier is actually humidifying?
    
    Also, I have it on the return plenum.  When I mounted it that was the
    only available area.  Is there anything to do to try and prevent the
    problems outlined in the previous reply?
    
    George

    THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN CONTROLS IN ADDITION TO THE ORFICE SIZE.  LP
    IS AT A MUCH HIGHER PREASURE THAN NATURAL GAS. DON'T MIX THESE UP
    EITHER.

>>    THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN CONTROLS IN ADDITION TO THE ORFICE SIZE.  LP
>>    IS AT A MUCH HIGHER PREASURE THAN NATURAL GAS. DON'T MIX THESE UP

There is usually a regulator that brings the pressure down to "natural gas"
levels.  I belive is is always placed outside the house so the high pressure
side is always outside in case of a leak.

I have converted a gas stove and dryer over without any changes to controls.

bjm

    I seem to remember the guy who installed my LP furnace saying the
    pressure at the furnace was on the order of 2-3 PSI.
    
    Edd

    Correct...inside the house the LP pressure is low. Outside its around
    50 PSI.
    
    Marc H.

    just a brief anecdote... 
    I bought a gas detector a short while ago to leave next to my LP gas
    pipe just in case. Well the other day the gas man came out for some
    minor work. he took a look at the detector that I had just purchased
    from the office that he works from.
    
    	"What is that?" he wanted to know! Am I expecting to much when I
    think that an LP gas repairman should be able to recognise a gas
    detector???? 

    RE: .23
    
    The skill level of tradesman and professionals varies a lot!
    The normal leak detector for a gas pipe fitter is a spray bottle
    of soap.
    
    Marc H.

    I looked around through the conference for this subject, but nothing
    quite fit. 
    
    I use propane to heat my house (FHA), and run the dryer and stove. About a
    month ago I noticed the "gas" smell (the smell they inject in propane/gas)
    coming out of the furnace exhaust pipe (outside of the house). Called
    up the gas/propane company and the owner came out (a very small
    outfit). He said it was a blocked ... (I don't remember) and it was
    filled with acorns (plausible considering the mice problem we have).
    However, there was also this black cinder like material in the middle of
    the furnace (there a separator 1/3 of the way up the furnace - under
    the jets so nothing can drop to the very bottom). Anyway, a serviceman
    had cleaned the furnace a good 3 - 4 weeks prior to the owner showing
    up to fix this present problem. We just thought the serviceman didn't
    do a great job of cleaning.
    
    Well, we've run into a potentially serious problem. About a couple of weeks
    ago, I noticed a slight smell in the dryer. It didn't smell like
    unburnt gas. It's been getting worse until this weekend when we had to 
    open the windows and air the house out. My clothes smell of the scent.
    
    There's a faint odor when we use the stove (especially the oven) and 
    according to my fiance, we're getting that odor out of the furnace
    exhaust pipe. Also, there's this black cinder like material (almost
    like charcoal) back in our furnace again.
    
    My fiance said the smell was almost like kerosene. Since this seems to 
    affect all the gas appliances, we're thinking that the propane may be
    contaminated. Has anyone heard of such a thing? 
    
    We just got a new shipment of propane 10/16. However, at filling time,
    we already had 1/2 tank of propane so they only put in 20% more (the
    tank holds 500 gals). My belief is that we're starting to use the newer 
    stuff. 
    
    Is there a way to test this propane? We're getting very concerned that
    the current gas company won't do anything (tomorrow the owner comes
    over to check out the problem). He says it's probably another blockage
    however, I believe he still is thinking of the furnance and that it
    hasn't sunk into him that all the gas appliances are affected.
    
    Yeeks! I definitely want to be more self-sufficient.
    
    Any suggestions as to what it can be?
    			Cindy                             

    Could the blockage be causing inefficient combustion thus causing the
    black buildup in the furnace?

    The smell isn't just in the furnace but any propane appliance (stove,
    clothes dryer). Plus the furnace was service 5 weeks ago, and then
    2 weeks ago the owner came out to work on the furnace (and found the
    blockage).
    
    If the smell was only coming from my furnace then I wouldn't think of 
    contaminated gas at all. 
    		Cindy
    

    What do the flames on your appliances look like? Have they changed
    at all?
    
    The flames in your furnace should be blue. Any yellow should be at the
    very top.
    
    Edd

We had the same problem last week. Seemed to only last a day though. 

We have a gas cooktop (Jen-aire sp?), gas waterheater, and gas dryer. All
fueled by propane. One day last week, the house reeked. I asked my wife
what she had spilled on the cooktop since she was using it at the time.
She said nothing and we concluded that it was the gas. She also complained
the next day that a whole load of laundry had come out smelling the same
way. 

I concluded that the problem was caused by too much scent additive (since
gas is odorless, a scent is added so you can detect a leak) since the
problem disappeared the next day.

After reading your note, I'll keep and eye (nose!) on it.

							Mark

    
    
>> Unrelated but interesting.  I have a 500 gal propane tank, in `Frozen Fire'
>> the author points out that the yield in a tank around this size, once
>> vaporized and ignited all at once, is not much less than the U.S.'s first
>> atomic bombs.
    
    Yes but it will have a lot less radioactivity, thus is more ecologically
    sound!   ;-}
    

re .25 

>water or so.  The propane controls are the same as natural gas, the jets
>are not the same.

For some appliances they are the same, but for others they are not.  I had to
replace the orfice on my natural gas dryer to use propane, but on the furnace
I had to replace the orfice and replace most of the insides of the control.

Tom

    Interesting topic mixed in here about the price of LP.
    
    We recently had an LP tank installed and converted from electric water 
    heating to LP and also removed a coal stove from our family room and
    installed a Vermont Castings LP burner for heat.
    
    Had our first tank fill on November 3, at $1.22 per gallon.  Had 
    second fill yesterday of 77.7 gallons at $1.23 per gallon.
    
    Since we have been having major aggrevation with the entire
    installation, my husband gave our neighbor a call last nite, since they
    also received a fill from the same vendor yesterday.  They have LP
    cooking and waterheating.  He asked what they payed, per gallon and
    yesterday they payed $1.43.
    
    NOTE SAME VENDOR SAME DAY.  Looks like it might pay to shop around.
    
    We only had to agree to buy 100 gallons per year and they installed
    the tank free of charge.
    
    Judie
    
    

>>                     <<< Note 4782.28 by SQM::MCFARLAND >>>
>>                            -< LP Price variations >-

>>    Had our first tank fill on November 3, at $1.22 per gallon.  Had 
>>    second fill yesterday of 77.7 gallons at $1.23 per gallon.

Wow!  I had mine filled November 11 for $1.00/gallon in Hudson NH from
Bot-L-Gas ( 882-7811 )

Garry    

    My vendor got up as high as $1.55, before I realized (duh!!!) that the
    price wasn't bouncing in sync with gasoline, oil, etc. i called around
    to a couple other places and discovered I was paying at least 30 cents
    more than they were charging.
    
    I called my vendor, who dropped the price 30 cents as soon as he heard
    the words "I called your competitors..."
    
    Edd

    
    One reason I stayed away from LP gas and the "FREE tank" is that you
    are now at the mercy of the gas company. It's called price
    discrimination and it's practiced by all monopolistic suppliers, i.e.,
    You pay in relation to what THEY think you'll pay, not what's fair
    or market price. 
    
    	Bob

Having just moved, I went thru the routine of calling different gas vendors.
I had done this 5 years ago, and many had said "We don't service your area"
and now I find there are at least 20 that come into this area.

What I did find out, almost all (except 1 that I called) have different rate
structures depending on what you use your gas for.  If it is just the HW heater,
it is one rate...HW heater and stove, another rate.  If you heat with LP, you
will get the cheapest rates.

I found this out by one vendor telling me if I put one more appliance (like a
dryer) on LP it would drop my rate 12 cents!  The guy across the street got a
rate of 84 cents because he has 2 buildings that he uses LP on and I was 
quoted 1.29 with a $250 deposit on the tank  because I was new to them and
only needed it for my stove and HW heater!  Needless to say I went with some
one else.

But calling and checking does help, make sure you tell them what appliances
you have on LP and DON'T tell them you will only use 100 gallons!~

dana

In Woodland Park (where a good percentage of homes can get their gas straight
through pipes in the street), there are still at least four different LP 
suppliers (just within the city limits ... population? 5,000?).  They are in
steady competition with each other, and just out of town (like in Divide or
Green Mountain Falls), there are another 10 or so.

None of the ones I'd queried had tiered price schedules, and all have lots of
these tanks (of various sizes) just laying around their lots.  My guess is that
the cost of a tank is pretty darn low (and may even be subsidized by their
wholesalers).

They all mandate that you lease your tank from them (for safety reasons), so 
buying a tank is near impossible.  I suspect that there might also be some 
hassle about disconnecting and removing a tank that contains unused gas, so
the smaller your tank the better you can time the expiration of a lease, and
the removable of an unwanted tank, if you decide to switch dealers.

This is no monopoly, nor is it a utility, because you can change supplier at
*almost* any time.  The *almost* is what you have to watch out for.  

It sounds like the suppliers back east (or at least the ones mentioned here) are
trying to dazzle their customers with confusing details, so they'll simply stop
looking at the market, and settle in, treating their suppliers as a utility.

    > Suburban Propane gets 1.73/gallon
    
    Ironically, Suburban gave me the cheapest quote when I shopped around
    last year.
    
    Call around and then tell them what you found...
    
    Edd

    .35
    
    I deal with Suburban as well as my neighbor as I stated in a previous
    note.  I pay $1.23 and the neighbor pays $1.43.
    
    I thought $1.23 was high.  It was my intent to get a feel for how many
    gallons we use over the next couple of months with our new installation
    and head back and negotiate a lower price.
    
    I have found Suburban extremely difficult to deal with it appears that
    you can never get a straight answer from them.   What we found out
    after going up to their office in Marlboro several times is that they
    have recently taken over Petrolain and they have more business then
    they can handle.  Us home users are peanuts to them.  This is just my
    opinion based on a limited time dealing with them.
    
    .35 what appliances use propane in your house?  If it is just a stove
    that is probably why your price is so high.  I understand that stoves
    don't use enough for them to recover the cost of tank installation.
    
    Judie
    
    
    
    
    
    

My propane price has never gone over $1/gallon (yes it has gone under)since I 
moved into the house.  New house, initally just heat/hot water but I plumbed a
new gas stove and converted the nat-gas dryer and plumbed that in. - I never
bothered to tell them that - maybe my price will go down if I do - naw I won't
risk it :-)

Bot-L-Gas - Based in Nashua (as I recall)
I live in southern Merrimack (almost Nashua/Amherst).

I belive I own the tank - (that is I think I am free to find whom ever I want
to supply my gas).

I don't think I would have been real happy if the price was $1.50 or so - I
grew up with nat-gas and hate watching the electric meter develop its own
graviational field when an electric dryer or range is on so I was happy with
the propane.

bjm

I called Bot-L-Gas (mentioned in .11). Garry gets his gas from them for $1.00 a
gallon. If I used 300 gals/year they'd charge me (I think - my notes are at
home) $1.46/gal. Anything under 300 (I used 285 last year) and it's an additional
$100/year tank rental. I called about half a dozen places and generally prices
dropped $0.25/gallon for every 100-200 gallons you buy after the 1st 300.

						Trace 

>>                     <<< Note 4782.39 by FRITOS::TALCOTT >>>
>>             -< Prices vary *a lot* depending on how much you use >-

>>I called Bot-L-Gas (mentioned in .11). Garry gets his gas from them for $1.00 a
>>gallon. If I used 300 gals/year they'd charge me (I think - my notes are at

I use about 800 or more gallons a year ( heat, water, dryer, cooking ).

Garry

    .41 and I'll bet if you told them someone was paying .99 they would
    have lowered the price to that.
    
    Originally we were told .98 or .99 per gallon by a woman in the
    Suburban office.  By far the most knowledgable individual we delt with
    at Suburban.  Then when it came down to the install we were told by
    Peter the lowest we could get was 1.22 then when they did the fill it
    was 1.23.
    
    I have Suburban horror stories......................
    
    Judie
    
    

    Just out of curiousity -- are even of the replies renters or are you
    all home owners?
    
    
    I dealt with Suburban when I rented and they were awful.  Rude about
    their prices and one person even told me that they were the only
    suppliers in the area and I would have to live with it!  Basically
    sounds like (now...) that the landlord got the tank from them and no
    one could put their gas into a tank owned by another company unless the
    landlord got involved, etc.  
    
    I had trouble with my furnace last year which they serviced -- and had
    the furnace die on me 9 times in a 7 week period in  Dec & Jan. 
    Several times they told me they couldn't get out to look at it for 2 or
    3 days...
    
    I now once again have Suburban with a house I purchased -- they have
    responded within hours to any service call including ones made on
    weekends...
    
    Doesn't sound like any way to run a business to me!!!
    
    

    I own my house.  The main reason we went with Suburban for this NEW
    installation is that we went to them once and got noplace, rude,
    nobody called back etc, but my husband's friend said give them 
    another chance because he got a tank from Warmer Fuel a local
    much smaller competitor and every time the tank got to 1/2 full it
    started to small.  He replaced his Warmer tank with a Suburban tank and
    the problem went away.  So, my husband decided to go with Suburban
    based on this.
    
    Unless something drasticly changes, come next summer we will change to
    some other supplier.
    
    Some of my war stores and I repeat some.   I could go on for hours.
    
    We installed their water heater which we rent from them at a very good
    price.  We paid to have the plumber remove the electric and install
    their waterheater.  Note, this was early November, we were guaranteed
    not to be without hot water for more than a few hours.  Guess what,
    we we spend 1 1/2 days without hot water and the only reason we got it
    then was because I told them to come and get their !!!! waterheater out
    of my house.
    
    They said they would put us on automatic delivery but we should read
    the gauge occasionally and give them a call when it got to 10% and they
    would come right down and fill it up.  We checked it and it was down to
    20% on Friday after Thanksgiving, I called them and told them it was
    down to 15% they said they would have someone come down on Monday to fill 
    it up. I was told they did not have us down for auto delivery until
    DECEMBER 21.  Well, guess what, Monday came and went and no delivery.
    I had to call again Tuesday morning and of course someone had to call
    me back.  The person who called back said he would have someone right
    out.  At 3PM nobody had come yet and I had to call again to make sure
    the delivery came before the end of the day, by then it was pretty low.
    Finally then came right out.
    
    This installation provides the only heat in our family room and our hot
    water.  It is not like the propane is something OPTIONAL...... 
    
    Judie
    

	Salut Judie,

	Try Eastern Propane, I've had them for several years with no complaints.
	I just got a delivery @ $1.04/gal with a 10% discount if you pay in full
	in 10 days. I have a 500 gal BTW and run the whole house on the propane.


	-mike

    
    I too use Bot-L-Gas in Nashua.  When the house was built the builder
    had them install the tank (500 gal, burried).  The contract states
    that I need to use either 300 gallons of fuel, or pay $8.50 /month tank
    rental.  I'll check, but I don't remember anything about having anyone
    else fill the tank for me.
    
    All three fillups, initial 450 gallons, 144, and (!) 207 were at $1.00
    per gallon.  I've got 20 days to PIF.  No discount.  Perhaps I can prod
    them for a discount if PIF within 5-10 days or so.
    
    Now it's time to get the set-back thermostat hooked in...
    
    						.dave.

    re: -1
    	I also have an AprilAir and I don't think its working. I see no
    water inside the unit and no water is being pumped into it when the
    furnace blower is operating.   I've checked the water line from the
    main pipe and that's supplying water to the unit.  I've used a
    meter to see if I can get any voltage readings - but I can't.
    
    We moved to this house over the summer and it came with the house (no
    instructions).  I have no idea how to troubleshoot it and there's no
    wiring diagrams around.  I called the company and they told me I have
    to contact one of their contractors for help.  (They don't provide
    installations instructions.)
    
    Does anyone have installation instructions I could copy?  An experience
    with these units?  George...?
    
    Thanks
    MikeB.
    

    I called the heating contractor where I bought the unit and asked them
    how to tell if the unit is actually humidifying the air.  They didn't have 
    a good answer. It's not like you can feel the heat as with a burner or
    the cold with an air conditioner.  They did say that the tube will only
    fill with water when the humidifier is actually adding moisture to the
    air and that doesn't necessarily happen everytime the burner goes on. 
    The way mine is wired, when the burner goes on the humidifier fan goes
    on whether humidity is required or not. I plan to have my wife play
    with the humidistat while the burner is running to see if I can
    actually see the humidifier do something.  I suppose the only way to
    really tell the effectiveness is to get a hygrometer and measure it.
    
    George
    

    I just connected mine yesterday.  Seems to work fine.  Things to check
    are wiring - the socket should be live when the blower turns on, not at
    other times as you only want the water pumping when the blower is
    blowing; thermostat control - pump will only be active if humidity is
    less than the setting.  In my case I can hear the pump activate when
    it's running.  Simply a matter of listening to the unit when the blower
    starts and hearing the pump engage.
    
    _Stan

	I've got a cottage on the cape, in need of a heating system
	its a summer cottage, with weekenf rental for may and june.

	The existing propane heater is no good, and I need to do soemthing

	choices:

	Buy a new propane heater: cost is $800.00

	Install electric baseboards, but I'll probley have to
	have the service brought up to code.

	Anyone have any thoughts, alternatives for a heat source forthis
	cottage.

	Thanks

	Ken Holland

    Ken,
    
    I have a renovated cottage as my year round home, and I bought a 
    Monitor kerosene heater. I have been very pleased with it. It's
    extremely efficient, is vented directly outside so there's no
    smell, and is very small. I think our whole deal cost less than
    $800, including a pump to pump the kerosene up from the cellar.
    
    I highly recommend the Monitor.
    
    	june

This sounds like a good application for a heat pump.  Again, you might have
to have the electrical service brought up to date.

Stan

    
    .13
    If i'm correct, a Kero stove is a no-no in Mass.
    
    JD

    
      The Monitor is an 'outside vented' heater. It just happens to use
    Kerosene. It is just as legal as any other space heater which is vented
    outside.
    
    					Kenny

    
    RE:.15
    
    	When did they pass that law in Mass.?  I can remember my
    grandmother had one in her kitchen in the early 60's.
    
    Joe

    
    
    Yes, we used to have a kitchen stove with the two
    burners at one end.  When we moved, the oil man said
    that if we took the stove out, we couldnt hook it up 
    again.  If you still had one in use, you could still
    use it.  I"m going to say 10yrs ago this happened..
    
    I guess they were listed as a fire hazzard because you could
    flood the burner and cause a fire......

    
    This note hasn't neen touched in several years, but, we have an 
    addition on our house that needs to be heated. It is a completely
    separate zone from the rest of the heated portion.  We currently
    have electric (ouch...) heat in the house with a woodstove backup.
    My husband is looking into a proprane type fireplace set-up in this
    new familyroom.  There is no natural gas in the town I live in. And
    we don't want to go the oil route.  Any suggestions on how to heat
    a 18 x 20 room with catherdal ceilings???
    
    thanks,
    marcia

                      <<< Note 1234.6 by AIMHI::TRAHAN >>>
                          -< HEATING WITH PROPANE?? >-

!    Any suggestions on how to heat
!    a 18 x 20 room with catherdal ceilings???
!    
!    thanks,
!    marcia

sparingly.

!    Any suggestions on how to heat
!    a 18 x 20 room with catherdal ceilings???
!    
!    thanks,
!    marcia

   Consider putting in a ceiling fan that can help circulate the warm air that
collects at the top, down where you want it to be.


Al

    
    I have a 40x16 cathedral front room. When we were without heat for
    a couple days in the winter due to a furnace problem we heated it 
    with a glass doored efficient fireplace (more like an in-the-wall
    woodstove) with a powered heat-o-later. Blowers draw air in beneath
    the fireplace, heat it, and blast it out above the fireplace. 
    
    This, in combination with a ceiling fan at each end of the room, did
    wonders for heating the room and much more of the house.
    
    I cannot stress enough the importance of the ceiling fans. Make sure 
    they're reversible so in the summer you can draw the warm air UP.
    
    								- Mac

>    I cannot stress enough the importance of the ceiling fans. Make sure 
>    they're reversible so in the summer you can draw the warm air UP.

Why does this help?  It's still the same air circulating, unless we're
talking about a fan that vents air into the attic or something.  I thought
that ceiling fans simply served to mix the air in a room, so that reversing
the direction wouldn't make an appreciable change.

	Thanks,
	Larry

    
    The fan pushes the warm air down.  With out it, you would have to
    build the heat in the room from the ceiling down.  Moving at a slow
    speed as not to cool the hot air, it displaces  some of the cold air.
    
    How about a small gas "palor" type heater.  My parents had one in
    the living room for a few years until they got baseboard.  Worked
    great.  Its a 35k btu unit.  Almost cook you out on HIGH!
    .......their selling it!!...hint:)
    
    JD

Sorry, I still don't understand.  Assuming that the room is closed, then
warm air near the ceiling is circulating (moving down) regardless of which
way the fan runs -- it just moves down in the middle of the room or at the 
edges.  So why would one want a different fan direction depending if one
is heating or not?  Also, why would running the fan more quickly cool the
air?  It would cool people due to sweat evaporating, but surely the air
temperature isn't affected (excecpt that it is better mixed at higher
speeds, and it gets slightly hotter due to the fan's higher running temp).
Is it that one wants the fan blowing down (creating more of a breeze in
the middle where people are) when cooling and blowing up (which creates
less noticable air movement) when heating?

	Thanks,
	Larry

>Is it that one wants the fan blowing down (creating more of a breeze in
>the middle where people are) when cooling and blowing up (which creates
>less noticable air movement) when heating?

Exactly!

    
    Actually you'll find arguments on both sides of which direction 
    the fan should blow under which circumstances. It's more of a 
    preference item. Installing a reversible fan gives you more options.
    
    For instance:
    
    	Some folks will say: In the summer you want the fan to drive 
    	the air down and create a more focused breeze.  In my case,
    	in the master bedroom (very high cathedral ceiling) I prefer 
    	to do the opposite. The room cools much faster and stays cooler 
    	if I open the windows and skylights and draw the air up. I don't
    	like a constant breeze on me when I'm trying to sleep. If I had
    	a single direction fan I would not have much flexibility.
    
    								- Mac
    

    	I had a 35k BTU direct vent propane heater installed in my condex a 
    while back. The whole thing installed cost $500 and was done by Petrolane
    in Londonderry, N.H. All in all I was pretty happy with it. It was able
    to easily heat about 800 sq. ft. of living space on the coldest days.
    It's also thermostatically controlled and can be turned off when not
    needed. Much more economical compared with electric baseboard heat.
    
    	Ray

    Has anyone heard of or seen any kind of a heat exchanger for ~ 4" gas
    furnace flues?  If I could find one reasonable priced, I'd like to
    install it on the basement boiler, to heat the basement somewhat.
    
    I have seen a device that has metal screens on a chain drive, which
    pass thru the flue and then have the heat blown off them by fans on
    each side, but it was expensive; as I recall several $100's... It
    looked like this:
    
                         |      |
                         |      |
                  -------------------------
                  |  --              --   |  The crude round areas have
                  | |  |            |  |  |  fans behind them, which blow
                  | |  |            |  |  |  the heat off the screens as
                  |  --              --   |  it moves in front of them.
                  -------------------------
                         |      |
                         |      |
                         |      |
    
    
     I'm looking for something with either no moving parts (just heat
    exchange tubes) or with one fan blowing air thru the heat exchange
    tubes.
    
    Anyone know if these are available, and where?
    
    Thanks.

    	4" gas flue might be a tough one. I want to do the same exact 
    thing on my oil furnace. I was thinking of using what I believe is
    called a heat-a-lator. I've seen them on wood stoves and hope to pick
    one up used cheap.
    
    	I have a 7" pipe coming out of my boiler which is probably 1" more
    than most wood stoves, unfortunately. The heat-a-lator is, as far as I 
    can tell, just an insulated metal box surrounding the pipe with fins on 
    the outside of the pipe and a fan to blow the hot air out.
    
    	The reason I hoped to pick one up cheap is that although they are
    normally sold for wood stoves, wood stoves are the only thing where
    creosote is an issue. I've been told by someone that had one (and
    unfortunately threw it out) that it cools the pipe off so much it
    *causes* more creosote buildup. He paid $139 for it new, so they aren't
    that expensive to begin with.
    
    	BTW - from what I remember seeing, the 4" gas pipe is also
    double-wall whereas my 7" pipe is single-wall. This may make it even
    more difficult for a gas pipe heat exchanger set-up. 
    
    	Ray

I just took a heat-o-lator (8 inch) to the dump.  They are hazardous.  I was 
using it on a wood stove, and what happens is that all the creosote builds up
in the heat-o-lator since there is relatively cool air flowing through the 
unit.  Granted, there is much less soot with an oil furnace, and even less on 
a gas unit, but I think the use of such devices spells trouble.  For the 
little extra heat that you get out of them, it's not worth the possibility 
of a furnace failure or even worse.

Brian

    	Do some/most of these things have baffles that run through the pipe ? 
    If yes, any crack or leak would cause flue gases to be blown into the 
    basement ? That was the whole point behind the chimney ordeal I just 
    went through. Ya, I can see where that would be a problem ;-) 
    
    	If the heat you get out of them is minimal anyway, then .2's reply
    may be enough to make me stay clear.
    
    	Ray

    Actually, the flue pipe I was thinking about is probably more like 6",
    not 4".. I think I was thinking of the flue on the gas hot water
    heater, since that's smaller.  I'm nearly certain it is single-wall, on
    the boiler flue.
    
    I want to use the heat exchanger on gas boiler/furnace, not wood stove, 
    so creosote wouldn't be an issue.  I don't think cooling the exhause would
    be much of an issue either, for me. Am I wrong?
    
    It seems like an awful lot of heat goes roaring up the flue when the
    boiler comes on full blast, and I'd like to recover some of it if
    possible.  So I'm still looking for comments/info.
    
    BTW, I am also considering adding a heat exchanger to my woodstove in
    my vacation place, and wondering if anyone has any other comments, good
    or bad.  I'm wondering if the same company makes any variations, such
    as with less cross-tubes, to remove less heat from the exhaust, to not 
    cause the creosote build-up so much,  Any comments?
    
    fwiw, last year Spag's (Shrewsbury, Mass/USA) had the wood stove type 
    exchangers for ~ $90. Right now, they don't have any but will be getting 
    more in a couple wks; I checked.
    
    Thanks.

There's a discussion of your application in note 4050.

I wouldn't be concerned about any safety factors using the thing on a gas
flue, since there should be near 0% solids in the exhaust gas. Seeing
as how some of the newer high-efficiency gas furnaces actually vent
through walls with PVC, I'd question how much heat there might be to
recover from a gas flue, though.

-Jack

    If they were that great, everyone would have one!!  I tried one, and
    took it to the dump.  It's a gimick.  FWIW, if you do go with a unit 
    with your wood stove, and you burn *slightly* wet wood, you had better
    put a bucket under the heat-o-lator, bucause you will have a pool of
    NASTY smell'n stuff on the floor.  They are a no-no in my book.  Ask
    your furnace repair man - see what they have to say.
    
    - Brian
    
    P.S. Mine also came from spags... and is now in heat-o-lator heaven.

    thanks for the pointer to 4050.*  I did some searching, but couldn't
    find the topic... Hmmm, now I don't know if it's a good thing or not...
    
    When I cleaned the stovepipe on my woodstove last year there was a very
    minimal amount of ash/creososte on the inside, probably because it gets
    so hot.  The stove is home-made, and solid, but not too efficient; i'd
    guess that 'most' of the heat goes up the chimney, so I'm still
    considering getting one for it.  It seems like it will be roaring hot
    there, and should be ok.  
    
    Question:  should I put this directly over the damper in the stovepipe?
    I don't have too many feet of space before the pipe goes thru the wall,
    and I think the closer to the stove the better, but not sure...
    
    Does anyone have any more info on an exchanger for a gas boiler?  Mine
    isn't low-effiency as far as I can tell; the flue gets mighty hot and
    the gas gets burned fast... I wonder what % of the heat is heading up
    the chimney.. Still looking for comments and suggestions.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

    
      Those heat extractors certainly can cause a lot of creosote buildup
    in a wood stove fired situation. Anything that lowers the output temp
    of a woodstove will do that. 
    
      In a gas furnace flue, there is a little CO, CO2, and a lot of water
    vapor. Extracting heat from that with one of these would not cause any
    sort of chimney 'fouling' since there is nothing left in the exhaust
    gases of a gas furnace to cause that. There is a *slight* chance that
    it could cause condensation in your chimney *if* you were somehow able
    to get the flue gases cool enough. I highly doubt that would happen
    with a non-high efficiency furnace. I know my Weil McLain at 82%
    efficiency has to be carefully vented to avoid excess condensation and
    so is near the edge. I wouldn't want to add anything to it that would
    lower the flue gas temps.
    
    					Kenny 

	    I have a Magic Heat attachment for my wood stove.  There is
	good amount of creosote build up after a season of burning that
	has to be cleaned up.  If not, the stove doesn't vent well and
	the cellar gets smokey.  This is not necessarily dangerous but it
	surely isn't a good thing.
	    Part of the build up was probably my fault.  I was damping 
	the flue pipe, after the heat exchanger, to try and get the cata-
	lytic converter to burn hotter.  I've decided that it's better to
	leave the damper wide open all the time.
	    I like the heat exchanger.  The hot air blows down and I use
	it to help dry out wood.  I don't think it would be much good
	without a CAT connected right before it, though.  And since I
	figured out how to use the stove/CAT more reliably (none of that
	damper nonsense), I hope to have less build up this year.
	    
					Tim

    I, too, have been considering having my FHA ducts cleaned, as there now
    seem to be a number of companies advertising this service.  At first
    I thought it was just a silly idea--hadn't cleaned them in 20 years, 
    so why start?  But both my husband and I have sinus problems and
    allergies from time to time, and I wondered if cleaning the ducts
    would help.  Since there doesn't seem to be a lot of comment on this
    subject, perhaps I'll start with the Better Business Bureau.  But if
    anyone has contracted with one of these companies recently, I'd
    appreciate some feedback.

I have dust and mold allergies.  My allergist said the best way to survive them
is to have FHW heating, and not have wall-to-wall carpet in the bedroom. 
Fortunately, I was building a house when he told me this, so I had control over
this.  If I lived in a place with FHA, I would definitely have the ducts cleaned
at least once, and then decide what to do after that.

Elaine

	    When I brought up the idea of cleaning FHA ducts (SOMEwhere in
	this conference), someone mentioned that they don't get all that
	dirty (on the supply side, anyways).  Either way, I started using
	the high efficiency, pleated air filters.  FHA is inherently dusty,
	but I have noticed an improvement.  

					Tim

    I have installed a set of unvented LP gas logs in my house.
    After they burn for a while a burnt gas smell begins to build
    up in the house and gets stronger the longer the logs
    burn.  Anyone have experience or suggestions to eliminate this? 

    
      I don't think that's legal. It certainly can be dangerous. Gas gives
    off some amount of Carbon Monoxide when it burns. You can't smell THAT,
    but you are smelling the various water vapors etc that are also being
    given off.
    				Kenny

    
    Agree with .1 on "legal".
    
    Just had a family in Webster that was overcome by CARBON MONOXIDE.
    2 of them were rushed to a hyperbaric chamber in Maine.
    
    Fred
    

Gas heating appliances (except stoves for some reason) MUST be vented,
whether Natural Gas, Coal Gas, Propane or Butane.  (Gas fridges, fortunately
rare, also don't require venting.)

Good ventilation IS required for gas stoves and fridges however.

Stuart

    
    -1
    
    Not necessarily.  There are many 'flueless' LPG heating appliances
    used in Europe.  Like the recent discussion on through-the-wall flues,
    the US seems to have stricter requirements than say, the UK.  However,
    I used one of these for many years, as did my parents.   Incidentally,
    they only smell when ventilation is inadequate.  I believe that there's
    a chemical added to the gas that burns off in normal combustion, but
    concentrates in the air if there's inadequate ventilation.
    
    They type that I had would also shut off automatically if ventilation
    was too low.
    
    C
    

    Unvented gas logs are very legal and approved by the AGA.
    The advantage is the heat doesn't go up the chimney. My local
    LP company even gave me a better price on gas because it was 
    considered a heating unit. They do have an oxygen sensor that 
    shuts the unit off if there is not enough oxygen in the air. 
    
    I also wouldn't recomend leaving them running unattended.

    
    Ok. They must be able to get away with it because they have a 
    realatively small output, like a stove.
    
    				Kenny

>    I have installed a set of unvented LP gas logs in my house.
>    After they burn for a while a burnt gas smell begins to build
>    up in the house and gets stronger the longer the logs
>    burn.  Anyone have experience or suggestions to eliminate this? 

What you are probably smelling is the odor added to the gas.  In most
applications, the odor is vented, or in the case of a cookstove, rapidly
overwhelmed by the odor of the food cooking.  You would notice the odor a lot
sooner if the gas was leaking.  Burning eliminates most of it, but not all.  If
I let my gas cookstove run for a while trying to bring my 16 qt stock pot full
of water to a rolling boil, I can smell theodor additive.

Suggestion to eliminate it?  Open a window a little bit.

    
    >Ok. They must be able to get away with it because they have a 
    >realatively small output, like a stove.
    
    They have quite a high heat output - there's no waste heat going up the
    flue.  On the -ve side, it's using the O2 in the house and drawing in
    cold air from the outside as a ventilation source.  There can be
    condensation problems (water is a combustion byproduct) but the heat
    isn't "dry".  Once you learn how to balance the ventilation, they are
    effective but not very efficient.
    
    C
     

I didn't see a topic in 1111.51 that covered GAS furnaces and power vents
so here goes with a new note....

I got a propane gas FHA furnace and a power vent.  My propane hot water
heater is also connected to the power vent.

This morning the furnace didn't come on and I called the repair guy.
The furnace acted just plain dead,  the power vent didn't come on *BUT*
the hot water heater was cooking away.

After an hour of trying figure this out,  for some reason I decided to check
the GFI on the 1st floor bath.  It had been tripped.  I reset it and everything
came back on.

It turns out that the original electricians saved 6' of wire by tapping
the power vent off of a basement outlet that is tapped off of the first
floor bath GFI.  So when the GFI trips,  no heat as the furnace is set up
to not run when the power venter isn't working!

We further examined the wiring and found the electricians had used 12-2 wire
for the span from the 15 amp outlet to the power vent.

The repair man said I should re-wire the power vent to tap off the furnace
ciruit (15 amp).  That's sounds reasonable to me and I think I'm going to
do it.  

Questions?

	-  Was the original installation (1990, NH) against code or just a
	   stupid short-cut?
	
	-  Should I re-wire it by tapping off the furnace circuit?
	
	-  I was also concerned that hot water heater kept going without 
	   the power venter.  Shouldn't it have a cut-off? ( Repair man
	   checking with manufacturer.)
	
	-  I also have an occasional problem where the furnace trips off
	   (error light flagged) when the hot water heater is going and there's
	   a call for heat.  Should they both share a the same power venter
	   or should I look at the pipe sizing?  (again repair man checking
	   with manufacturers.)
	
Garry

    Hi Garry --
    
    	12-2 wire is good for 20 Amp circuits, so it's certainly OK
    for a 15 Amp circuit.   I kind of doubt that building codes would
    *require* the furnace and venter to be on the same circuit.
    
    I'd go ahead and rewire it to the furnace circuit if it isn't a lot of
    trouble, as your setup is certainly confusing.
    
    Now you've got me wondering what circuit *my* power-venter is on. 

HI Garry,

>>Questions?

>>	-  Was the original installation (1990, NH) against code or just a
	   stupid short-cut?
	
Yup, stupid short-cut. Not against code but it's certainly against common sense.

>>	-  Should I re-wire it by tapping off the furnace circuit?
	
Sure go ahead, but make sure the total load that will be on the circuit doesn't
overload the circuit before doing it.

>>	-  I was also concerned that hot water heater kept going without 
	   the power venter.  Shouldn't it have a cut-off? ( Repair man
	   checking with manufacturer.)

I would be concerned also. If it needs a powervent to begin with it shouldn't
be allowed to run without it. IE to me it should be electrically interlocked.

    From .0
    
    I think we have resolved the problem. The "burning embers" were 
    defective causing a smell,  and cracking a window for O2 to get
    complete combustion,  has just about completely eliminated oders.
    
    The unit is great for two things, I think you call it "ambience",
    and its quick, just turn it on. The other advantage is it will heat a
    very large room (20x30) quickly and keep it nice and toasty.
    
    One of the previous notes mentioned small flames, the units now days
    have large flames and even burning embers, almost a real looking fire.
    
    

	I just installed an AprilAir Model 550, last week, and because my 
house has been so dry, I have had to running at hi (the 45 setting on the 
control unit) since then.  It seems to be working quite well because my throat 
and nose are no longer dry when I wake up in the morning.  Anyways, on the 
control unit the setting say that when the outside temperature is 65, the 
control setting should be at 35; outside 32, setting at 25; outside -10 
setting at 15.  Our outside temp is currently 32 - 40, but when I turn the 
setting to 25, the water does not turn on when the blower starts up, which 
tells me that the control unit is sensing that the humidity level is above the 
setting.

A couple of questions:

1) does anyone know if the settings on the control unit mean anything ie. 
humidity level or relative humidity levels, or are they just settings?

2) the control unit is located in the basement - would this affect where I 
have the setting?

3) we have alot of wood furniture along with strip hardwood flooring 
throughout the house - what humidity or relative humidity should I keep in the 
house to keep the wood from drying out?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

>>          <<< Note 1865.14 by TROOA::STOIKOS "Constantly Confused" >>>
>>                         -< Questions about ArpilAir >-

When I had my AprilAir installed the guy suggested to leave it on the
highest setting until I started seeing condensation on the windows.

Then you had too much humidity and should turn it down.

I left it all the way up all last winter and it seemed fine.

Garry

    I have the same model on my FHA furnace, it works well for us.

>2) the control unit is located in the basement - would this affect where I 
>have the setting?
    
    Yes, if your basement is at all damp. I would recommend relocating 
    the control unit to living space (mine is right next to a thermostat), or 
    else take into account the basement's humidity level when you adjust the 
    setting.
    
    I tend to ignore the markings on the control. Find a setting that
    produces a comfortable level of humidity for you. It's easy to tell the
    current level sensed by the control by an audible click as you turn
    the dial (just like a thermostat). 
    
    If the outside temperature gets very cold, I decrease the humidity setting 
    at night, otherwise the insides of the windows are covered with 
    condensation by morning.
    
    Antony.

    Well, I guess I'll answer my own question here..
    
    I called the gas company (Commonwealth Gas, in central Mass) yesterday,
    and they told me that they don't sell or recommend any heat extractors
    for gas appliance flues, and said that they are basically illegal.  The
    reason is that they supposedly reduce the flue temperature enough so
    that the draft up the chimney is possibly unsafe, as well as causing
    additional condensation within the chimney due to colder temperatures...
    
    They said this applies to units with fans, and without, including the
    metal fins that can be attached to the flue to draw out heat like
    radiator fins... They did say that heat extractors on oil furnaces are
    Ok though, due to the hotter flue temperatures produced by burning oil.
    

    
    	
        I have a gas parlor heater which needs to be converted to LP. 
    	I was under the impression the LP ran at about 3.5 PSI whereas
    	Natural Gas requires 11 PSI.  Also, that a regulator for LP
    	Gas will suffice for NG but not vice-versa.
    
    	The two notes below seem to be saying the opposite.  Anyone 
    	gone throught this before?
    
         Thanks!
    
    	/Andy
    
    
    
    
    
    Note 4782.19                  LP GAS; Pro's & Con's                    
    19 of 46
    BREAK::STANTON "Gerry Stanton @SHR"                   3 lines 
    15-NOV-1992 05:02
                            -< CONTROLS ARE DIFFERENT TOO >-
    
        THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN CONTROLS IN ADDITION TO THE ORFICE SIZE. LP
        IS AT A MUCH HIGHER PREASURE THAN NATURAL GAS. DON'T MIX THESE UP
        EITHER.
    
    
    
    
    
    Note 4782.21                  LP GAS; Pro's & Con's                    
    21 of 46
    MANTHN::EDD "$49,000, I think it'll work out..."      4 lines 
    16-NOV-1992 08:27
    
     
    
      I seem to remember the guy who installed my LP furnace saying the
      pressure at the furnace was on the order of 2-3 PSI.
    
        Edd
     En

    I know that for a dryer, you cannot use the LP orifice for nat gas or
    vice versa.  It seems to me that nat gas would be higher pressure,
    due to the different delivery methods, but I don't think it really
    matters.  Get an LP regulator and save the old NG regulator in case
    you ever want to switch it back.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

When we moved from a nat-gas location to LP - I had to get a conversion kit for
the dryer.  Easy to install.  It was more than just a replacement orifice
though - the dealer said something about "this piece needs to be stainless
steel because <forgot what the reason was>".  This was four years ago.

The stove we bought came with instructions on how to convert it to LP use. 
Again, easy to do.  The different orifices were color coded - and I belive a
sticker was included that I put in place saying "this has been converted to LP
usage".  The furnace (came with the house) had a similar sticker on it.

If its new enough, there is most likly some conversion available for it.

bjm

     
    	There is an appliance repair/used appliance store in Worcester
    	across from Linder's Used Auto Parts.  It is called Amato's
    	(508)798-2269.  They will change the orifice for $45.00.  if
    	the regulator requires replacement it will cost an additional
    	$100.00 for a new one.   
    
    	I just want to see if I can get the part(s) and do it myself.
    	It doesn't look like rocket science.
    
    	/andy
    

>>    	I just want to see if I can get the part(s) and do it myself.
>>    	It doesn't look like rocket science.

It isn't.

For my dryer - the cost was under $30.00 - this was more than just an orifice
replacment - maybe the burner tube also but not the regulator.  Instructions
came with it.

bjm

    
    What are people paying this year for propane.  My last deliver was 
    $1.55 a gallon with a 157 gallon delivery.  My average use is 1140
    gallons per year.
    
    /ab

>>                     <<< Note 3727.30 by LUDWIG::BERNIER >>>
>>                            -< How much this year? >-

>>    What are people paying this year for propane.  My last deliver was 
>>    $1.55 a gallon with a 157 gallon delivery.  My average use is 1140
>>    gallons per year.

WOW!  I just got a delivery of 156 gallons for $1.00/gallon.   I think
I use around 1100 gallons a year.    I get it from BOT-L-GAS in Nashua

Garry

    I have 94.9 from Energy North Propane, expected to use 500 -900
    gal/yr.  (I was quoted 99.9 with 1/yr required usage for hooking up.
    then they told me I'd get a 5� discount for the first yr also.)
    
    ed

	    Unlike, say, the Gas company, you can haggle over price with a
	propane distributer.   Seeing as you use sooo much, I would think
	that your LP guys would be willing to oblige you.

					Tim

	I'm having them swapped out Saturday for a company that is 
	going to sell it to me for $1.04  The other company can pick
	up the old tanks and I will be credited for the amount left.
	They are almost full.

	Thanks folks,


	/andy

           <<< Note 3727.33 by STRATA::CASSIDY "Tim Cassidy, #365" >>>
                                  -< Haggle >-

	    Unlike, say, the Gas company, you can haggle over price with a
	propane distributer.   Seeing as you use sooo much, I would think
	that your LP guys would be willing to oblige you.

					Tim

    Hi,
    
    My house gets very dust fast, like within 1 1/2 weeks.  I have FHA
    heating and am looking into getting my ducts cleaned.  Does the
    cleaning get rid of all the dust inside the ducts and will it cut down
    on the dust intht house?
    
    thanks
    -jon
    

	    Cleaning the ducts would be very difficult.  I'm not sure how
	you could go about it without taking the ducts down and taking them
	apart.  Besides that, they don't tend to get very dirty.
	    Do you use good filters?  I use the pleated	style (Purolator,
	from HQ).  They filter more dust, pollen, etc. than the cheapos,
	they're disposable and they only cost $4.00.  You can spray Endust
	on the filter to make it trap more dust.  If you do these things
	and replace the filter once a month, you may be able to reduce the
	dust to a more acceptable level.

					Tim

>>>>Cleaning the ducts would be very difficult.  I'm not sure how you could go
>>>>about it without taking the ducts down and taking them apart.  Besides that,
>>>>they don't tend to get very dirty.


Don't know about that.  Maybe if you have a new house that started out with good
filters they will stay clean but they can get real dirty.  I had FWA in my old
house and I'd never own it again because of the dust problem.  There is a
company that says they can clean the ducts but from what I hear (never checked
it out myself) they are expensive.  After taking some ducts apart I think I'd be
leary of cleaning them.  The dust was caked to the sides in a thin layer. 
Cleaning may loosen that up and if you have no way of getting it all out the
problem could just get worse.

George

I had the ducts cleaned in my previous house.  25 years old, 2400 sq.  ft.
on one level, two 100K BTU FHA furnaces with separate ductwork and separate
thermostats.  So basically, I had to have two separate duct cleaning jobs in
the same house.

They use basically a weedwhacker to knock the dust and junk loose from
inside the ducts, while simultaneously vacuuming out through a hole in the
plenum.  In my house, the completely filled the vacuum unit (about 1'x3'x6')
and had to empty it.  Most of the junk was construction debris that had been
there for 25 years.

I don't recall the cost exactly, but I think it was about $200.  In my case,
I think it was worth it, but my family has lots of respiratory problems.

    A previous note said something about getting access to the ducts for
    cleaning purposes through the "plenum." What's that?
    
    I've had new sheetrock and plaster installed in my whole house
    recently, and the dust just disgusting, no matter how I clean. I've
    removed all the vent covers that weren't painted over and used a
    shopvac to clean out as much stuff as it could reach. But there's
    visible debris behind the grates that are painted shut, and there's
    probably more lower down. What kind of person/company would I hire to
    clean this for me? Does something in particular have to be accessible
    for cleaning to be possible? (Are they going to have to pry off my
    painted-over-and-over-and-over grates?)
    
    Cathy

    
    The plenum is a main trunk line that the individual runs of ductwork 
    connect to in the basement. It's likely that they will run a razor 
    blade around the edges of your painted-over grates in order to get
    access. 
    
    If you can't find duct cleaning in the phone book, contact some heating
    and air conditioning service folks and I'm sure they can refer you.
    
    								- Mac

    I'm wondering if having the ducts cleaned will eliminate the musty
    smell that is coming from the heating system?  In the summer, if I get
    near the cold-air return grates in a couple of the rooms, there is a
    strong musty smell.  Now that the heat is on, that same smell is being
    blown in through the registers.  At first I thought maybe the smell was
    being carried from the basement, but there is a dehumidifier down there
    and my brother's basement has a really musty odor, but I never smell it
    in the rest of his house.
    
    When I bought the house, the furnace was 30+ years old and it looked
    like the filter hadn't been changed in years - it was really gross! 
    I've since had to replace the furnace and faithfully clean the filter
    every month during heating season.  I'm wondering if the past neglect
    allowed so much dust to settle in the ducts that it's causing the musty
    smell? 
    
    Any suggestions gratefully appreciated.  I'm thinking of calling the
    Boston Globe's handyman to see if he has any ideas.
    
    - Cindy

The heating system should be closed so you shouldn't pick up odors from the
cellar.  Do you he a humidifier on the heating system?  If so maybe there is
mold growing in the water.  I believe there are additives to help that.

George

    There isn't a humidifier hooked up to the furnace.  I run a
    dehumidifier in the basement all the time to make sure the basement
    stays dry and mold won't grow.  I've sprayed air freshener in the
    basement and the smell doesn't seem to carry up through the cold-air
    return, that's why I'm wondering if the musty smell is actually in the 
    ducts and not the basement. 
    
    I'm going to try to take the cold-air return grates off and see if
    vacuuming out any of the dust will work.  That's why I was interested
    in hearing from people who had actually had their heating ducts
    cleaned.  I may give the gas company a call too - not sure if they can
    help.
    
    - Cindy
    

    I have a house that has a very strange layout (barn converted) without
    a basement, just a shallow enclosed crawl space under 2/3 of the
    house.  We have $electric heat but really heat with two coal stoves.
    We have LP for the hotwater,dryer and stove and were thinking about
    changing over to FHW heated by LP.  So far only one plumber has 
    looked at the job.  Pipes are not easily run and he will not use
    the crawl space due to potential freezing.   We are very limited for
    space for a furnance so he thought of a wall mount unit that we could
    plave in the same closet as the HW heater and water conditioner.
    He would also have to mount a full size radiator type device in
    the office area with a blower (no way to plumb baseboards) and
    a kickplate unit in the kitchen area.   I know so far big bucks.
    
    Anyway over a week passed and we did not here from him. His reason
    was he cannot find a wallmount unit for LP that provides the proper
    BTU's.   My wife spoke with him not I that is the reason for my 
    question and here it is.
    
    First he said we would need to go with a full size burner but we do not
    have room unless we remove the water conditioner. Then we will have
    nice brown water..
    
    The second floor of the main house (cape style) has two bedrooms
    down the middle with crawl spaces on both sides.  The current
    closet with the water heater etc is under one of these.  Could
    I possibly open up the crawl space and make a small room for the
    furnace?   Are there code issues with this?  I have never heard
    of a furnace settup this way but I would think it should work.
    Would there be problems due to gravity?  Would I need circulating
    pumps on the returns vs the feeds?   The location would be ideal
    because both the water and gas enter the house in the room directly
    below this location.
    
    Also any recomendations on a good plumber in the central ma area
    that could do this .
    
    Thanks ,Colin
    

    
    And another question.  What about the direct vent standalone
    units?  Are they any good or are they inefficent (sp) as far
    as gas consumption and heating large area's?

    
    Regarding putting a furnace in the attic space (you referred to it as 
    a "crawl space" but from your description it sounds like you mean the 
    the small attic space on either side of most capes):
    
      Forced air furnaces in attic spaces are fairly common... especially in 
      larger homes with dual furnaces. BUT, I can't recall hearing of any 
      forced water furnaces installed in attic spaces. 
    
    Personally, I'd skip over the plumber and hunt down some heating
    contractors. Plumbing is required for a forced hot water installation 
    but a plumber is not neccessarily a good choice for sizing and sourcing
    the furnace.
    
    
    								- Mac 

    	I'm not sure how large an area you're talking about, but I heated
    the upstairs of my 2-bedroom condex with a 35K BTU direct vent LP gas
    hot air furnace (~450 sq. ft.). The whole thing cost $500 on a special 
    offer a few years ago.
    
    	It included installing the furnace, a thermostat, and plumbing in
    the gas line. We had no LP gas appliances at the time, so it included
    delivering a tank as well.
    
    	We were in a similar situation with the electric heat and no place
    to locate a furnace. Short of adding a "boiler room" to the house, this
    was our only alternative. Compared with the electric heat, it was a
    decent savings.
    
    	I know you mentioned FHW, but if you find you can't, this may be an
    option to consider. At the time, we did this through Petrolane (sp?), 
    which I think is know known as Suburban or American Gas or something 
    like that. They were out of Derry, NH. Anyplace similar local to you 
    can probably help you out with what your options are.
    
    	Ray

We have non-toxic antifreeze in the system along with the water - tada - no
freeze-ups.

						Trace

>>      Forced air furnaces in attic spaces are fairly common... especially in 
>>      larger homes with dual furnaces. BUT, I can't recall hearing of any 
>>      forced water furnaces installed in attic spaces. 

I've seen it done.  In an old building being converted to condos in the Bunker
Hill section of Boston.  Access to the area sucked (I had to wire in the 110
line) you had to crawl up through an access panel in a closet.  Lord help the
things in that closet if there was ever a leak!

bjm

    Well I had Suburban propane out yesterday to look at the direct vent
    units. I will likely need a minimum of 3.  The salesperson also
    mentioned that I may be able to remove my water heater to make room for
    a on-demand type furnace/waterheater.   The plumber they use will be
    out Saturday to check that option.   How good are these units as far
    as speed of hot water?

    
    
    	Gas provides a faster recovery ... 27 gallons per hour vs
    	17 gallons per hour for electric.