Conference 7.286::home_work

I'm not 100% sure of what your problem is, but I can tell you how I fixed 
a similar problem on a similar machine.

My dish washer wouldn't drain 'sometimes'.   I too 
thought the trouble was somewhere in the timer controller.  After pulling 
some hair out of my head searching, I found the real problem.  There is a 
solenoid controlled valve in series with the drain that was interrmittent.
The pump motor was working fine, but the drain valve wouldn't open all the 
time. I removed the solenoid/drain valve assembly and checked out the coil with 
my trusty ohm meter.  I showed no problem.  I put everything back together, 
and it worked.... once.  It turned out that the solenoid windings are 
encapsulated in plastic. After many temperature cycles, the plastic 
expands and contracts enough to break one of the fine wires in the 
solenoid.  So.. I bought a new solenoid/valve assembly for $30. and 
everything is fine.  

Most dishwashers have this arrangement.  You can put a voltmeter across 
the solenoid with everything connected.  Turn the selector to the drain 
cycle and you should see 110VAC at the solenoid.  If you see this, you can 
be sure the timer/controller is OK.  If the solenoid is "switching", who 
knows, maybe the Sears guy was right.  It seems very unlikely that the 
motor isn't rotating correctly.

As far as your water temperature problem goes, I have no ideas about that 
one. 

good luck,
..bill

    I don't know about the timing part, but I do know that the cost
    of a new GE dishwasher motor from Joe Average appliance dealer
    is (was) in the $130 range, U-install, so the $200 installed price 
    is probably reasonable.  
    Dishwashers are amazingly simple, by the way; there is virtually
    nothing inside them except a motor, pump, and a few switches.  I
    was really surprised when I dissected my old one.  There should
    be a wiring diagram on the inside of one of the cover panels
    someplace (you may need to take the door apart) that might help
    in troubleshooting the controls.
    

Sears dishwashers (by Magic Chef, same as Gaffens Sattler) are pretty
simple - have worked on more than one.  If the problem is that your 
motor won't go a particular direction - it could be the solenoid that 
gives the motor its starting 'push' in that direction.  If the motor
is humming but not spinning, I would be real suspicious of the
solenoid.  Get a schematic.  10 minutes of study and you will master 
your dishwasher.  You can try to short across the solenoid to give it
a push in the right direction - if its the solenoid, the part is like
$15. 

(PS _ to those with Magic chef - discovered that, at least for the 
door seal, the equivalent sears part is 1/2 the cost of the part 
ordered directly from magic chef.

The first place I'd look is the program timer. That's where all the
switching is to make the motor run forward or reverse, operate the
valves, etc. The contacts really take a beating and will wear out over
time. (I had to replace the one in my 10 year old Sears washer recently.)

I'm hard pressed to believe it's the motor, especially when you say
that when it does drain, it runs well. Electric motors, especially
induction motors, are essentially indestructible if not abused.

Sears sells a service book for their dishwashers at their service outlets.
It has a lot of step by step directions on dealing with their dishwashers.
(I'm not sure how well a 10 year old unit would be represented. For
specifics, you'll have to refer to the maintenance documentation that
came with it. They tend to bury the schematic inside the unit somewhere.)

    I have been having a similar problem with a Whirlpool unit.  It
    drains, but not all the water drains out (sometimes up to the heating
    coil).  I checked the hose for kinks, checked the timer, but I haven't
    tried the solenoid (if there is one for the outlet).

My old GE dishwasher is ready to be either replaced or overhauled.  Before I
drag it out and tear it apart, I would like to see if my major complaint about
these machines can be answered.  This thing could wake up the dead!  Is there
such a thing as a quiet dishwasher?  If so, does it work decently?  What brand
is quietest and how much does it cost?  How much does it cost to get all of
the necessary replacement parts to overhaul a GE?  I would really like to be
able to have a normal conversation in the family room when the dishwasher is
running in the kitchen, and I am willing to pay for it.....

    Consumer Reports did a review last June of several dishwashers.  I
    believe most of them now come with soundproofing.  Rap on the inside of
    the door to find out, though.  Some of the lower models don't have
    any.  Prices range anywhere from $275 - $550.  The main factor in
    determining the price of the dishwasher is the control panel.  The
    more expensive ones have 10,000 buttons/lights/cycles/touch-panels.
    You can get away much cheaper if you're willing to turn a dial versus
    pushing a button or panel.

    BTW, GE came out #1 in Consumer Reports.

    
    	Try adding your own "soundproofing".  I bought my new dishwasher
    and the soundproofing consisted on a 2" layer of insulation.  I
    carefully packed some more on the top and sides of the machine making
    sure that I didn't get in the way of the motors and cooling.  It
    reduced the sound a good amount.
    
    					=Ralph=

    You can also soundproof just behind the toe-kick panel.  Be sure
    not to block any air vents though.  Most noise I found comes right
    thru the door and you can't do anything about it.
    
    -al

    I have added more insulation to dishwashers also and it really cuts
    down the noise. The last time I did it I used R-12 insulation and
    had to tape it down around the dishwasher to get it back into the
    hole. After you put it back in place, reach under neath and cut
    the tape so that the insulation fills all the space between the
    dishwasher and counter. Also to cut down the noise of the water
    turning on and off (if you are using copper pipe as input to the
    dishwasher) get some automobile heater hose and split it lengthwise
    and put around the copper pipe.
    
    Robb

    We just got a new Maytag, and it is QUIET compared to the GE we
    had. I think the whole thing is wrapped in insulation, as well
    as insulation behind the toe-kick panel.
    
    mike
    

                         Kitchenaid is quieet also
    
    I just bought the Kitchenaid Whisper Quiet model and I know it 
    makes a lot less noise than someone that has a different model.
               
    mildred
    

    While we are on the topic of noisy appliances, let me ask a question
    about my refrigerator. 
    
    It's GE, 6-7 years old, mid-sized (17 cu ft or is it 19?) freezer on
    top, fridge below. Nothing really wrong with it, it keeps things cold
    and does its defrosting thing, but... it's NOISY when it runs, nothing
    unusual, regular refrigerator noises, but louder than I would expect
    from a relatively new fridge. And it seems to run fairly often, every
    20 - 30 minutes for example when no one has opened the doors for hours. 
    
    Questions... Does this seem normal? and... Has any one else with
    a similar GE fridge noticed these annoying features?

    Charly

    Charly, it's because there's not enough beer in the refrigerator. ;^)
    
    My Whirlpool refrigerator has the same features as yours.  Noisy
    and runs frequently.
    
    Make sure the light goes out when you close the door.
    Vacuum the cooling fins in the back of it.
    Make sure there is sufficient room behind and on top of the
    refrigerator for proper air circulation.
        
    You could get one of those water heater blankets for it!  That'll
    muffle it but the beer will be harder to get to...
    
    Phil

    Do you have to be inside the fridge to see if the light goes out
    when the door is shut?

Actually, when I replaced by old cycle-defrost model (you have to 
defrost it once/year or so) with a no-defrost  (both GE) I was 
surprised how much noiser it was.  So - one way to go is back to 
manual defrost (can anyone explain this?)

    RE: .9
    
    I know it sounds strange.  The light should actually shut off before
    the door is entirely closed so you can see it go out.  If you have
    a refrigerator that runs and runs and doesn't get cold enough, check
    this first.  This can usually be fixed by building up the area on
    the door that contacts the switch. (tape, band-aid, etc.)
    
    Phil

    RE: .8
    
    Some of the noise you hear is the fan echoing off your kitchen floor
    out the front of the fridge. I have found by putting a piece of carpet 
    under the fridge so that you can't see it from the front, really cuts 
    down the noise. You could take this to extreme by putting some carpet
    on the wall behind the fridge also, but I haven't tried that. The
    carpet under the fridge seems to quiet it enough.
    
    Robb
    

    If the refrigerator runs often (relatively), then maybe the door
    seals are not so good any more.  The test is to close the door with
    a piece of paper in the door.  The paper should not fall to the
    floor.

    Re: repairing old dishwasher:
    Quite likely not worth it, unless the problems are minor.  I looked
    into getting a new motor for my dishwasher: $125+ for the motor,
    for a motor that from all appearances should have cost about $29.95.
    
    Whirlpool dishwashers are supposed to be pretty quiet.

    I have the same problem as .5! I think mine stopped draining
    altogether. My water level is also at heater element level but i
    have to believe it is due to the overflow not letting it get any
    deeper. It was working fine and just stopped draining the other
    day. Anyone else fixed one lately? But now that i think of it how
    could the overflow let it drain without a pump? Also when i touch
    the drain hose it's not even warm. Where is the water going?!!

	Well, I did a DIR/TITLE="INST" and a DIR/TITLE="DISH" and found nothing.
If there's anything out there, please feel free to re-direct me.

	I just bought a used dishwasher and had hoped to install it meself.  Has
anyone had any experience with this kind of thing?  Any pointers?  Any good 
books on the subject?  Any recommendations (like 'have a professional do 
it' 8^)?

	Dan Eaton

    
    RE. 0
    	
    	Are you replacing an existing dishwasher or is this a new install?
    Do you have a garbage disposal in place?
    			

    Pray.   :^)
    
    I just installed a dishwasher and here are the things I would suggest
    you watch out for:
    
    1) position of electrical supply. Find out if the unit needs to
    be hardwired or has a cord. If it has a cord, the outlet must be
    placed to the side of the space where the DW goes. Min. 6" Max 18".
    If it's hardwired you have to bring your wire into the DW space
    down low ~7" from the floor, and you have to have a strain relief
    on the connection.
    
    2) rubber hose is no good for the input line. You should use flexible
       copper and compression fittings. Again, you have to make sure
    that you enter the space down low
    
    3) You must have a high spot in the rubber waste hose to prevent
       backup from the normal drain, or a siphoning action. Also
       the hook up for the hose at the drain should be no higher
       from the floor than 10".
    
    Alan

    re.2-1
    
    Depending on your local electrical code, if the dishwasher is
    hardwired, it may require a dedicated circuit and its own CB in
    the panel.
    
    Eric
    
    

    
    
    	And don't do what I did:
    
    	Run a cold water line also !!!
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Install a shutoff valve on the dishwasher water line.
    
    					Steve

    re: .5
    
    This is a good idea since it's a used dishwasher.  One of the problems
    with old dishwashers is they can leak from the constant water pressure.
    
    Elaine

    RE. 1
    	
	I'm installing it from scratch - there's been now dishwasher there
previously.


	RE .2

>    1) position of electrical supply. Find out if the unit needs to
>    be hardwired or has a cord. 

	It has no cord.

>    If it's hardwired you have to bring your wire into the DW space
>    down low ~7" from the floor, and you have to have a strain relief
>    on the connection.

	Where do you mean to put a strain relief?  On the electrical box?
    
	RE .3
    
>    Depending on your local electrical code, if the dishwasher is
>    hardwired, it may require a dedicated circuit and its own CB in
>    the panel.

	That's all set as the previous owner had set a separate circuit for
a garbage disposal unit to be installed in the future.
    

	RE .4

>    	And don't do what I did:
    
>    	Run a cold water line also !!!
    
	O.K., I won't
    

	RE .5 & .6

>    Install a shutoff valve on the dishwasher water line.

	Good point, I'll remember that.

	Thanks all for the help so far.  Keep it coming.


	One extra point - is there any special mounting considerations I need to
know about?  I noticed the top of the unit had a mounting bracket on each side.
I assume the bottom should be bolted down as well.

	Dan

    Re .1's question about a disposal; if you have one, the dish washer
    comes in the side of the disposal unit.
    
    Some places require a vacuum breaker (also known as a air cap) to
    prevent siphon of sink water into the dishwasher. I used a reinforced
    plastic hose that is tapped off the hot water line between the fawcet
    and the shut-off valve.
    
    Check out all the hoses; if the old one is aging, change it and
    save yourself a flood. Add some fiberglas insulation behind the
    unit to deaden the sound.
    
    /cal

    
    	Installing a dishwasher requires three things, power in, hot water
    in and drain out.  Mass does require that a DW be put on it's own
    circuit breaker.  A garbage disposal would also need it's own. 
    	Running the power in is easy.  Most units have a junction box
    in the front.  Leave extra cord as you might some day want to pull
    out the DW without disconnecting the electrical line.
    	The water supply is also pretty easy.  Tap off the hot water
    sink line and put in a shut off.  I believe the water IN line on
    the DW mates with a compression fitting.  You can buy 3-5' sections
    of flexible plastic hose with compression fittings on each end that
    should make the job easier.
    	I'm not sure how you hook up the drain without a garbage disposal.
    The drain line has got have a loop in it to prevent back siphoning.
    	Get some Fiberglas insulation and pack it around the metal
    cabinet.  Make sure air can still circulate around the motor and
    electrical parts.  This will really help dampen the noise.  Also
    check to make sure the unit is level.
    	I installed a HOTPOINT dishwasher last year.  If you send me
    your mail stop I'll see if I can dig up the instructions.
    
    					=Ralph=

    I used the [broken] timer from a dishwasher:  put it in a rectangular
    box with a plug and socket on the ends of a few feet of wire protruding
    from it - then gift wrapped the whole thing.  When you push on this
    "present" the Christmas tree lights come on for about 25 minutes!!!
    
    rmm
    

    Has anyone ever fixed a dish washer before?  Could you tell me
    how you diagnosed the problem?
    
    My dishwasher (GE) broke the other night.  It stopped while running
    just before the dry cycle.

    After examining the schematic (attached underneath) I believe the
    timer circuit might be shot.  The GE dishwasher seems to be a simple
    machine with a few basic mechanisms all attached to the timer. 
    I assume the timer is broken because I can't get any of the systems
    to work (either that or the plug fell out, being facetious and not
    knowing the full noting terminology to show that).
    
    Any recommendations in how to determine what's broke?
    
    Gary
    

call ge 800-626-2000 and get their DIY dishwasher repair manuals - or 
ask a technician to help you diagnose it over the phone.

    You say you "can't get any of the systems to work".  Does that mean
    you've tried to turn the program knob (if it has one)?  Also, I
    would check to see if you have power to the unit.  If there's power,
    try turning the program knob and see what works.  The timer, if
    it's a mechanical one, has a little synchronous clock motor.  If
    that's the culprit, try checking the power at its terminals.

    
    I've got a problem with my dishwasher.  The unit is a GE, around
    15 years old.  The dishwasher fills with water, washes and drains.
    However, during the wash portion of the cycle, water is being drained
    out of the unit, through the drain pipe into the waste tee.  I first
    suspected that the timer was signalling the solenoid to open the
    drain, so I removed the kick panel and watched.  The solenoid opens
    and closes the drain only when it is told to do so by the timer.
    The lever, that I assume opens and closes some type of flap inside
    the pump assembly moves freely.  The drain hose has a high enough
    loop in it to form an air gap (worked ok before and hasn't been
    touched).  The water does not appear to be getting pumped out by
    the motor, like during the drain cycle.  The water is pulsed out
    as the washer arm goes around.  Seems to me like the drain flap
    in the pump housing is not closing, but I can't tell since the plastic
    is not clear.  Has anyone ever experienced this sort of thing ?
    Given the age of the machine I am not going to disassemble it to
    look inside.  Any suggestions ???
    
    
    

    Not to be a smarty A**, but did you check the circuit breaker or
    fuse?
    
    Assuming that you did, be sure to have bucket and old towels handy.
    The motor/pump cavity holds about two litres/quarts of water. The 
    top of the door is in two pieces, you can take off the trim to look
    at the timer; usually, look for one of the sense switches staying
    open (there's a float switch that will hold up the cycle if it is
    stuck open/closed).
    
    /cal 

    yup, the pump is belt driven with a solenoid that engages the clutch.
    look for a worn armature in the solenoid mechanism. One reason we
    decided to replace the washer.
    
    /cal

why not call 800 626 2000, ask for a dishwasher technician, and 
ask him?

    
    I called GE and spoke to a dishwasher technician.  He said that
    the flap inside the pump housing is sealed with a nylon type seal.
    Chances are the seal is worn and is a major job to replace (read
    too old and too expensive).  Another possible solution that he
    he suggested was removing the drain hose and scoring the sealing edge
    of the housing with a sharp implement.  The leak could be the result
    of some type of buildup on the sealing surfaces, e.g. lime.  I am
    reluctant to remove the clamps on the hose given the age of all
    the pieces involved.  I might try some type of lime solvent, like
    the kind you use in ultrasonic humidifiers.
    
    

    Status:  dishwasher now repaired
    
    Problem: Not getting power (magnetic switch inside washer open)
    
    For future reference - a dishwasher is a simple device.
    After checking the breaker and turning the control knob through
    the cycles I took off the front pannels and lo and behold found
    a schematic for the machine.  A dishwasher is nothing more than
    a transformer, timer, pump, drain, overflow valve, heating elements 
    and a few interlocks (shutoff switches).  All the systems are
    independent and run off the timer.  So, if nothing works, it's likely 
    the circuit breaker, interlocks, transformer, or timer.

    My GE washer does not get power if the door latch is not closed
    or if two magnetic strips are not closed.
    
    
    
    a remarkable simple device.  

    I am on my second Whirpool 9500 (just moved into another house and
    am remodeling the kitchen so bought another one).  It is SOOOO quiet
    and does an excellent job.  It does not have 10,000 buttons - uses
    a chip and has LED readouts - which work easily and are simple to
    clean...just wipe off.
    
    The diswasher cost $500.00 at Somerville Lumber.  You have to order
    it as they don't carry this unit for floor models.  
    
    I never thought dishwashers were that different until I bought this
    one.  Between my past kitchens I have had new Sears, Tappan, and
    the Whirlpools.  AS LONG AS I HAVE A CHOICE I WOULD NEVER USE ANY
    OTHER DISHWASHER.
    
    
    		(I do not have stock in Whirlpool!!!  Wish I felt this
                  way about all my appliances.)
    

re: .17

The salesjerk who sold us our Sears "Ultra-wash" (or some such techno-speak)
dishwasher told us it was made by Whirlpool.  I dunno, it does look like
a Whirlpool.  It is quiet...

/Al

You can probably put the dishwasher anywhere you want, so long as you 
are willing to run a separate water line and separate drain to it. The 
reasons for putting the dishwasher near the sink are to use the sink 
drain for draining the dw, ease the water connections for the dw, and 
for most households there is a functional relationship between the 
sink and dishwasher that provides compelling reason for proximity.

It sounds to me like it would be less work to carefully remove the 
cabinets near the sink and install the dw where it should be than to 
put is somewhere else.

John H.

    
    I have a 10 yr old house with a diswasher which is just as old.
    I have been noticing that my glasses have started forming a film
    from being washed in the dishwasher.  They are clean except for
    the film.  Does anyone know what this film could be?  How do I stop
    it from forming?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Sherry
    

    Having just installed a DW, I concur with .1. The main restriction
    in siting the DW is the drain connection. I will probably be easier to put
    the DW next to the sink, even if you have to remove a cabinet or
    two, than to run a separate drain and water line.
    
    Alan

    A few guesses:
    1) You have town water
    2) Sometimes the town gets the water from a reservoir, sometimes
       from wells
    3) They recently switched over to using a lot of well water, the
       well water is hard (it has dissolved limestone in it), and that's
       making the film on your glassware
    
    Or, did you change brands of dishwasher detergent?

    RE .3 The fellow just said he DID NOT want a portable.
    
    Yes, all you need is to run a hot water line and a drain line. I
    ran one for my mother in law who had a 1920's house with a pantry.
    I ran a hot water line and a drain line (much like a laundry drain
    line with a goose neck to keep out sewer gases). Also rewired the
    pantry outlet with a grounded outlet.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    /cal

    If you've recently changed from powdered dishwasher detergent
    to the new liquid stuff, that's probably it.  We tried the
    liquid, and it's terrible.  Glasses come out looking unwashed.
    FYI, this was Cascade powder vs Cascade liquid.
                             
    pbm
    

    
    Nope to all of the above.
    
    We have well water.  I have not changed dishwashing liquids.  I
    think that the film may have been accumulating slowly over the
    past year ( I have been in the house for a year).  I can wash it
    off, but not that easily.  And, the glasses have an odor inside
    due to the film.
    
    Any other ideas?
    
    

I guess you can tell I'm a systems analyst.  The engineering part of 
hooking up seperate water feed and drain lines is one issue in this 
project.  The other is how the entire system works after it's 
installed.

Let's assume that plates have to be rinsed off before they go into the
dishwasher.  You are now carrying wet, dirty, drippy dishes across the
kitchen to the dishwasher.  Do you have any idea how dirty the floor
will be?  The whole idea of putting the dishwasher next to the sink is
to be able to have a smooth motion to rinse, stack, rinse, stack, etc. 

Also, if the person doing the dishes has to turn around constantly, 
then there really can be no other flow of traffic across that path 
such as clearing the table, putting food away, whatever.

I suggest that if you decide on this, you go through a trial run 
before you install the dishwasher.  Pretend it is there and instead 
stack up the dishes on the counter top (in a dishpan if you want) just 
to get the idea of the flow and see what happens to the floor.  Also, 
are you the person who does the majority of the loading?  If not, I 
suggest that the one who does makes this decision.  The kitchen 
functionality is to important to be compromised for looks.

We ripped out a cabinet to put in the dishwasher next to the sink and 
everything looks fine.

Karen

    
    We have some liquid called "Jet Rinse" or something like that, that
    we put in a small compartment in the door. As long as we use this
    we get no streaks no matter what kind of detergent we use. 
    
    I would doubt that your dishwasher held a 10 yr supply, but maybe
    it's been happening so gradually that it's only recently become
    a real problem. That stuff is usually right near the dishwashing
    soaps in the store.
    
    As for a previous note, I hate the liquid stuff too.
    
    JMB
    

    
    	What about your washing machine, toilets, showers, hot water
    heater?  Sounds like you've got minerals (iron, manganese) depo-
    siting in your dishwasher, are the others also staining?  It might
    be worth your while (especially with a well) to get the water tested
    again (assuming it was tested before you moved in) because water
    from a well can change characteristics (chemical-wise) over time.
    I've got only .7 ppm of iron in my well (max. is .3 ppm) and I
    have staining on everything.  Solution?  Filter it.  Big money,
    but the only solution.  The problem is, over time, the iron and
    other chemicals will ruin your appliances. 

    
    Washing machine seems fine.  The toilets do have a "red" ring and
    streaks in them - Is this due to the iron?  (please excuse my
    ignorance, I lived on a boat all my life and all this house stuff
    is new to me).  The showers seem fine - although one has "grim"
    at the bottom but I can't tell if it is dirt or minerals.  I have
    tried to scrub it off numerous times and never succeeded. 
    
    Sherry
    
    

    
    		We just replaced our Whirlpool "builders special"
    after 10 years.  The noise from this thing was deafening.
    	We replaced it with a Sears "quiet" model which amounts to
    an inch of fiberglas with a foil back wrapped around the tub.
	For extra measure, I tacked some 1/2 inch polyurethane
     foam on the the inside of the cabinet enclosure and installed
    the new washer.
    	The difference is unbelievable.  You can actually carry on a
    conversation in the kitchen while it runs.  I was careful to allow
    some space between the washer tub and the foam.
    	Hope this helps.
    
    bw
    
    P.s Portables are ok, but they're kind of a hassle to move around
    and hook up to faucet.  Karen in .5 is right, it should definitely
    be near the sink.  

    
    	Yes, iron will leave brownish-red deposits.  I'd suggest get-
    ting your water tested, and get it done at an independent labora-
    tory that does not sell water treatment equipment.  That's the 
    only way you'll REALLY know what's in the water.  

    In the past year, we had our portable dishwasher built-in. We had
    it installed next to the sink. At the same time we had the plumber
    install a garbage disposal. The dishwasher now drains into the
    disposal, and any food that is passed by the dishwasher is ground
    up. This saves on food blocking the drain pipes. This is probably
    only good if you do not have a septic system.
    
    Ken

    I've also read and been told several times recently that most newer
    model dishwashers do not require that the dishes be rinsed. The
    recent Consumers Report article tested both ways and could not see
    a difference in the cleaned dishes.
    
    							Mark
    

    If you live in New England, especially New Hampshire, you have
    lots of iron in your water.  Ours is (forgot the exact number)
    hundreds of ppm, but it doesn't seem to affect the dishwashing
    quality.  Tastes lousy, but it won't kill you.  You can filter
    it - potassium permanganate system, I believe - or you can live
    with it.
    
    pbm
    

re .7

Our dishwasher also drains into (or through) our disposal.  I am not sure if 
the water enters the disposal above or below the grinding mechanism.  I 
would never use this as a reason to non-scrapted dishes in my dishwasher.  

Besides, how would the food get ground up?  you would have to leave 
the disposal on the entire wash cycle and it would run dry most of the time.
And that's if the waste water enters above the grinder (which I don't think
it does).

I was under the impression that the connection in disposals for 
dishwashers was so you could have both on the same sink, not so that 
the food in the waste water could be ground up.

    The dw waste does enter above the grinder. Below the grinder sits
    the motor. You can watch it enter by looking in the drain. I never
    cleaned the dishes before going in the dw and run the disposal after
    the dw finishes. But I know a lot of people who clean everything
    before it goes in. But I don't think it hurts to put in dirty dishes.
    
    Tim
    

    
    Any food large enough to be ground up by a garbage disposal would
    never make it there.  Any dishwasher I ever looked at has a metal
    screen which prevents large debris from being cycled through the
    sprayers.  Then again I'm no dishwasher mechanic so I could be wrong.
    
    Phil

    This may be reaching a bit but I remember reading that using 
    too much detergent can etch glasses and also leave a film.
    You may want to try using less detergent and see if that helps.
    
    Evelyn

      	Our Sears semi-top-of-the-line has a built in disposer.  It works
	exactly like the  one  in  the  sink.   Of course, it won't eat a
	whole steak, but it  certainly  makes  short  work  of bite-sized
	pieces. :-)
	
	So, if your machine has  such  a device, locating it anywhere you
	like is OK...
	
	Chris

	re: .-1
	
	Some of  our  glasses were etched by excessive detedgent.  We cut
	back and put  the etched ones 'out of service' as a control group
	and have seen no  additional  etching.    Dishes  still  come out
	spotless with less detergent.  How much you need to  use  depends
	entirely on the water hardness.
	
	re: .-a few
	
	Iron staining is a problem in Merrimack NH and the owner's manual
	says that using some measured amount  of  citric acid crystals in
	an  empty machine with a normal cycle  should  remove  them.    I
	haven't been able to find a supply at  the  local  drugstores.  I
	suppose  the next step would be trying a chemical  supply  house.
	Anyone know where there's one in southern NH?

I have a leaking problem with my dishwasher. I took the front panel off to
expose all the guts. I thought I had found the problem with this dishwasher,
when I noticed that the seal-gasket had come unglued by the base of the tub.
I took this off and cleaned it and reglued it back but I still have the 
problem.

I stayed up until 3 o'clock trying to make this guy work. I found that I could
keep the leaking from happening by opening and closing the *SWITCH* that the
tub plunger sits on. Inside the tub is a plastic *FLOATIE* (for lack of better
words) that has a shaft on it that protrudes thru to the base of the dishwaser
that rests on a *SWITCH*. I can mess with this *SWITCH* and control amount of
water going into tub and keep it from leaking. I have bent this *SWITCH* to 
where it makes contact all the time (plunger all the way down). When the 
*SWITCH* makes contact all of the time the water never turns off to the tub 
and then overflows the tub. If I bend the *SWITCH* to where it never makes
contact then the water never comes into the tub and the dishwasher goes thru
all of it's normal cycles without water.

My *GUT* feeling is that the problem is in this area but I can't determine what
the function of this *FLOATIE* is. After carefully looking at the *FLOATIE* I
see that it couldn't be an indicator of how much water you have in the tub, 
because it has a open hole in the side. If it were a water height indicator
it wouldn't have a square hole in the side. Someone in my office went home and
looked at their dishwasher and noticed that their *FLOATIE* needed quite a bit
of pressure to push down to make this *SWITCH* make contact. So is this 
*FLOATIE* a agitation indicator????

After reading this note I noticed I never said where it is leaking. It is 
leaking out the front, about middle. It looks like to me it is overflowing 
over this gasket. But, if you open up dishwasher about the time it is 
overflowing you just have around 1/2" of water in the tub. By the way it is
a front loading G.E.

If anyone has ideas let me know, if I can't do it then I have to spend my
hard earned $$$$$. Gosh, if I fix computers for a living then why can't I fix
this????

Sorry so long,

glenn

    
    Well,  the excessive detergent could certainly be the problem. 
    I will try lessening it and see if it is successful.
    
    Thanks for all the information!
    
    Sherry
    

>	Iron staining is a problem in Merrimack NH and the owner's manual
>	says that using some measured amount  of  citric acid crystals in
>	an  empty machine with a normal cycle  should  remove  them.    I
>	haven't been able to find a supply at  the  local  drugstores.  I
>	suppose  the next step would be trying a chemical  supply  house.
>	Anyone know where there's one in southern NH?

Go to your grocery store and buy Tang.  The space-orange-juice stuff. 
Dump it in the detergent cups and run a cycle with the machine empty 
just as the manual recommends.  It's been recommended, tried and 
endorsed a zillion times in this file.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    The float controls water height. If it doesn't float, or has sunk
    over time, you will get too much water in the bottom of the dishwasher,
    and puddles on the floor. If your 4-year old takes the float for
    a toy (as did mine), you will get no water, and the washer will kindly
    bake all foodstuffs indelibly onto your good china, which is almost
    as bad as the mess you make tearing the house apart to recover the
    float, which will be found (much later) tucked under the pillow on 
    the hassock in the den.
    
    If you can, adjust the float switch so that the water fills almost
    to the door rim. Since the washer won't fill while the door is open,
    and since the water is godawful hot, this is a time-consuming
    trial-and-error process.

    The bill is in the mail.

    
    
    	Call Leominster Appliance Company.
    
    	617-537-3416
    

I stand corrected. This is a float (depth indicator). I am at home now and I
filled (manually) the tub with water and made sure this *SWITCH* was working. 
After filling up the tub though I even had a more terrible overflow. Instead
of just leaking out in the front middle, it leaked from all around the front
if you can visualize what I mean. 

Maybe a little more light. It seems to overflow when the rotor (is that what it 
is called?) is turning. I bent the *SWITCH* back in the original position and
tried it from the beginning cycle and still overflow.

Thanks for the previous replies! HELP I'm cheap!

glenn 

re Note 1908.0 by SNOWY::HEDRICK:

I had the exact same symptoms on a GE dishwasher.  I noticed that the inlet
water kept running in after the switch was turned off for 10 seconds to almost
a minute!  Apparently the inlet valve was sticking, and so closing slowly. 
This caused the tub to fill with too much water.  I replaced the inlet valve,
and the leakage disappeared.

Bob

    I don't think this one is doing that. The reason is when I filled
    it up to the level of the float it seemed the correct level in the
    dishwasher. By this I mean, the float rose and the switch was now
    open whereas the switch is normally closed when the float rests
    on it. When I play with the switch I can see that the water shuts
    on/off on my command. Is it time to shell out $$$$?
    
    glenn

By the way, GE dealers sell a manual aimed at the home owner which tells
how to diagnose and fix common dishwasher problems.

Bob

    
    
    	Leominster Appliance Company sells the whole line of G.E. fix
    it yourself manuals.
    
    	620 North Main St
    	Leominster, Mass
    	617-537-3416
    
    
    	And yes, the owner is my best friend.
    
	-Steve-
    

I've had dishwasher problems when the hot water temperature isn't hot enough.
I know my hot water temp is lower (at the faucet) in the winter.  The
dishwasher soap needs 120+ degrees to disolve properly.

fyi,
...bill

I did a little more work on this problem. I took off the blade that spins
around to rinse the dishes and noticed the LEAKING problem wasn't near as 
bad. So, I opened the door as this magical thing was going around and noticed
that when water was coming into the blade it was coming in as SPURTS. This is 
similar to gushes on a geyser. 

I decided since the place it was leaking was in the front, to MASKING TAPE 
the leaking area where there was a CUT-OUT spot for ??? Since I did this it 
hasn't leaked through two cycles. I know this shouldn't be the fix, but I will
probably live with this until the REAL part totally ^&*%$ up. 

I am know sure that I saw 2 leaches come thru these blades. I  confirmed
this. I have purchased a completely new ETCH-A-SKETCH form RONCO and have
re-inacted the overflow. This model (3 dimensional) shows without a doubt that
the reason I am overflowing is because I haven't invested in a REMOTE DIAL-IN 
port to let CXO dial in! Sorry so cheap!!

Leeches be gone,

glenn

    The new mds01 allows connect to all devices which will allow CX03
    to dial in and do remote diagnosis. Contact your local FS for details.
    
    8^) ;^)
    
    -j
    

    Several years ago, a friend suggested that I put about 1 cup of
    bleach in the dishwasher every month or so.  This gets rid of
    grease and detergent build up.  You put the bleach in with a
    normal load of dishes.
    
    I remember to do it when the dishes start coming out dirty
    of with film on them.  Seems to work.
    
    Judie
    
    

    I just ordered the In-Sink-Erator (by Emerson Electric, NOT Emerson
    Radio, and using the old Kitchen Aide Factory) "Quiet" dishwasher.  The
    pre-sales test:  Tap the innards with a fingernail.  This one has a
    rubber-lined body with insulation around it, and gives a dull thud,
    while the cheaper I-S-E's don't, and sound like you're tapping a hollow
    metal cavity (which you are). 
    
    Most of the Kitchen Aide's (now made by Whirlpool) are noisier.
    The high-end GEs sounded quiet, too, by the tap test, but the dealer
    insists that ISE is the best.  I'll see in a few weeks...

    Hope all you DW experts still have your thinking caps on!! 
    
    I have an 8-year old Whirlpool that they built my townhouse around,
    that leaks water onto the floor *after* the cycle is done, and makes  
    enough noise to wake the dead in that other Menlo Park.  It kind of
    sounds to me like time for a new unit, but, having won my latest round
    of appliance-mud-wrestling (with the dryer), I may be willing to take a
    stab at this one.  
    
    I am assuming that the noise is simply a matter of the age of the unit. 
    Is this a reasonable assumption?  
    
    I talked to a counter guy at the appliance parts store (real
    knowledgeable - diagnosed the dryer over the phone for me) and he said
    that I may have some impellor blades broken on the pump that drains the
    tub.  His opinion was generally that I'd be better off replacing the
    unit, but I could screw around with it if I wanted to.
    
    Any ideas??
    
    thanks
    
    andy

    I'm assuming you've done the obvious and checked that there isn't
    a piece of cutlery, broken glass, etc. sitting over the pump in
    the DW.  My husband, who owns an appliance parts store, agrees that
    if you have broken impeller blades replacement of the unit is the
    treatment of choice.  When you try to replace parts in a pump,
    invariably seals get disturbed enough that they soon begin to leak
    and you have to go in AGAIN and replace it anyway.  Also the broken
    blades may have caused other damage which is not immediately apparent.

    Dishwashers are quite simple contraptions, there's not much in them.
    I was surprised how little there was to mine when I took the motor
    out.  I also found that the replacement cost of the motor ($130)
    was such that it made more sense to replace the whole dishwasher
    (it was 15+ years old.)
    Check what a new pump costs, weigh the amount of aggravation involved,
    the odds of having to replace the whole thing anyway in 6 months,
    and see what you think.  By all means, investigate the innards and
    see if you can find anything simple to fix, but don't feel too badly
    about pitching the whole thing.  If it was put in when the place
    was built it may well be a "contractor's special" and not all that
    great a dishwasher anyway.  The guy at the applicance store could
    probably give you an idea of its relative quality.

    The town that I live is has excessive sodium in the water. As a
    result, my dishwasher has started to rust on the inside walls
    where the racks pull out. Is it possible to paint the inside
    of a dishwasher? I read the label on Rustoleum, it said that it
    could be used on surfaces that get as hot as 200 degrees F.
    How hot does the inside of a dishwasher get? Are there any other
    reasonable solutions?
    
    Thanks
    Linda
    
    

    Call the helpline at the manufacturer for the temperature of the
    hot dry cycle.  We only use the cool dry and got an extra five years
    out of an old dishwasher by sanding down the rusted areas, letting
    it dry THOROUGHLY and then painting.  

are you sure its RUST and not brown MINERAL stains?
if its the latter - throw 1/2 bottle of TANG into an empty machine and 
run a cycle - you'll be surprised how bright the result

    Check out the notes on Epoxy paint.  If anything can take the heat,that
    can.
    
    	Andrew
    

    Dishwashers don't rust - at least not from sodium in the water.
    I would tend to agree with .2, that you have mineral stains,
    especially if you're in New England.  The Tang method works like
    a charm.
    
    pbm
    

    Vinegar is cheaper, and probably more acidic than tang....will work
    better also.... If you have rust, why don't you get some of that
    new rust removal stuff (I forget it's name), but it somehow chemically
    changes the iron oxide (rust) to some other compound that's paintable.
    After using this I would use EPOXY paint, or get some 5 miniute
    EXPOXY, and simply slather it on. Or for a more professional job
    you could thin the epoxy as per MFG directions and brush on several
    coats.... This will give you a nice "HARD and DURABLE" surface...
    I would tend to think that paint would not last long under the
    conditions found in a running dishwasher...
    
    
    						Dave
    

    I think there's more to it than simply the strength of the acid.
    I'm not sure vinegar would work as well, it's a different kind
    of acid (acetic vs. citric) and the reaction with the rust is a
    chemical one, not simply a matter of the acid eating it away.
    Vinegar would certainly be easy to try though.
    

    I'm so glad someone mentioned the mineral stains and the Tang 
    remedy.  I have been scrubbing the inside of my dishwasher
    (no easy task) to get the stains out and I've tried running
    other cleansers through it with no luck.   I will definitely
    give Tang a try!!

    I'd love to see if Tang will get the stains out of my old dishwasher,
    too, but none of the local grocery stores seem to sell the stuff,
    at least not that I could find (maybe it's in with the cleaning
    materials??  It sure isn't in with the beverages - not surprising,
    considering how bad the stuff tastes, unless it has improved since
    my impverished college days when those of us who couldn't afford
    refrigerators drank the stuff as a break fast drink!).
         

RE: .8

Agree.  It's interesting to note that there's a real use for Tang.  I
always felt that Tang was "out of this world"--useful only to
astronauts!  :-) 

Alex

its difficult to find - I always have to ask the manager ,
it should be there though, not more than a few (dusty) bottles...

	Has Tang changed? I used to love the stuff as a kid. Then again,
	I used to love stuff that now makes me gag.

Larry

    I'd like to report that it wasn't rust inside my dishwaher but
    mineral stains. I'm really glad because it was a lot less work.
    This notes file is great, thanks :-)
    
    I had plenty of vinegar on hand so I ran the dishwasher with a
    generous dose of white vinegar. I did have to wipe most of it
    off although it came off easy.
    
    Linda
    
    

    If tang can be used to clean out a dishwasher, just think what it
    does to our insides.  Does it get rid of the mineral deposits and
    make them sparkle, too?
    
    scott

    Tried Tang this weekend and, you were right, it worked like
    a charm.  Seems better than the vinegar because when I opened
    the dishwasher it looked like new - nothing to wipe off!!!
    I, too, am glad that there is finally a use for Tang - perhaps
    they should start locating it in the supermarkets with the
    cleaning products instead of the beverages!!!
    
    Valerie
    

    I've looked through all of the dishwasher notes, but didn't find
    one that helps with my current problem.    
                                               
    I have a Kitchen Aid dishwasher that's approximately 12 years old. It's
    run without problems during the three years we've owned the house.
    Yesterday my wife opened the dishwasher to unload the clean dishes (She
    had turned it on the night before before going upstairs to bed.). To
    her surprise, the soap was still in it's dispenser, and the dishes were
    dirty.  We both recalled hearing the dishwasher the night before.
                                               
    Suspecting something was wrong, we turned on the dishwasher for
    another cycle, and noticed different sounds than we normally hear.  We
    opened the machine several times during the cycle, and found that very
    little water was circulating in the tub. In fact, water was dribbling
    out of the four wall mounted sprayers, but nothing was coming out of
    the stainless steel propeller at the bottom of the tub. The drain pump
    was working fine, spitting what little water it found into the garbage
    disposal outlet.                           
                                                                  
    We played with the cycle knob, advancing it through different cycles
    -- prerinse, wash, dry. Still no significant water.  I removed the
    panel beneath the dishwasher door, and looked under there to discover
    how simple a dishwasher really is, but found nothing that I would
    feel comfortable playing with.  I replaced the panel, started the
    machine at the beginning of its cycle, and to our amazement, splashing
    sounds began emanating from the machine. WATER! I opened the machine
    and was pleased to see dripping wet dishes. My wife patted me on
    the back.  The cycle continued uneventfully and successfully. 
                                                                  
    But, we both knew that the problem would likely return.  What *is* the
    problem, and what can I -- a mechanically, but not electrically adept
    person -- do? I know from reading other notes that all dishwasher 
    functions are controlled by the timer/cycle knob, and that
    "servo-switches" are the critical start/stop elements for the
    functions.  Is there likely a defective servo switch that controls
    water on-off?  If so what do I do with it ( and of course, how do I
    locate it.)?                                                        
                                                                       
    Any help would be appreciated.                                     
                                                                       
    Joe                                                                
                                                                       
                                                                       
                

	Here are the two simplest things to try.  

	1)  Mechanically ganged switches used on dishwashers take on "set."
	This is when the button appears to be pusshed, but the switch 
	slips from its on position.  The only cure is to cycle through the
	switch positions about once a month.

	2)  Take canned air and blow on all mechanical contacts.  This will 
	either clear-up the contacts or force the intermitten problem to 
	break completely.  Canned air is expensive.  An alternative is to 
	use a bike pump with a broken inflation needle.

	Brian

    Another no-cost thing to check before you call the repairman is
    the float.  Food particles get in there and the intake of water
    can shut off prematurely.  Mine lifts out easily and can be rinsed
    under running water.  While it is out, clean off the post it rides
    on.  

re: .2

I was going to suggest checking the float also.  Every once in a while our
dishwasher doesn't fill up.  We just open it up and give the float a tap
and it's fine for weeks.

		Dave

	I read the note about pumping and supply, no note seems to touch
this subject.

	I am in the process of replace the old sink base with a new one, at
the same time put in a disposal and a dishwasher. After talking to some
plumbers and electricians for installing a electric hung up, a hot water line
and connect the dishwasher drain to the disposal, the budget went through
the roof. 

	I am seriously considering running the hot water line myself, I am
thinking using PVC pipe to connect the existing copper hot water line. Is
it possible to make a connection like this ? What are the steps ? Because I
would like to avoid doing any soldering.

	Second, about the disposal, most of them were wired to a switch
above the counter top and operated from there, I would like to how is there
any other method of operation, like the disposal was wired directly from a
source and get turn on with other means.

siu Pong

    
    	I'd check with your local inspector about plastic supply pipe
    since I think it has been outlawed in a lot of places.  If he says
    the code will permit it, then I would advise you not to use it any-
    way.  Especially with hot-water, the glue joints can have a problem
    coming apart, and that can be real dangerous if you happen to be
    in the area where a hot water joint separates, not to mention the
    mess if it lets go when your not home.  If you have low water pres-
    sure then the risks are reduced, but not eliminated.
    
    	Why don't you buy some pipe and fittings and give soldering
    a try.  It's really not hard at all.

    
    thank for the advice, can you give some pointer in soldering
    
    siu pong
    

    Most dishwashers need only a 1/4" supply line.  1/4" copper pipe
    comes in big rolls, like electrtical cable -- it is pretty flexible.
    So there is no *need* to solder anything -- there are no joints!
    
    At my dishwasher, there is a sticker that says to the installer:
    "don't solder, use a compression fitting. The heat of a soldering
    torch will damage the inlet valve.  So I did."  The 1/4" flexible
    copper runs from there to the hot water supply under the sink -
    about 6'.  I already had a Tee in place.  If you don't, you can
    buy a tee that bolts *around* the existing 1/4" supply line, and
    then you drill a hole through the middle.  Much easier than cutting
    the supply line and inserting a tee
     
    1 1/2" PVC drain and vent pipe is real easy to work with too.  You
    buy a solvent and primer which makes a good joint, and can put the
    pieces together dry before you glue them.  I would avoid "slip joints"
    becuase they always seem to work loose and let water drip out under
    the sink.  
    
    One day I will try soldering, but so far I've managed never to have
    to.
    
    	Andrew
    

>    what do you mean by bolt around the existing supply pipe.

There's a gadget called a saddle T, saddle splice, or ... - at any rate,
saddle something (wait.. it's saddle valve!).  You turn off the water
supply, drain the supply line, then drill a hole in it where you want to
take off for the dishwasher.  The saddle valve then clamps in place.
My father-in-law, a plumbing contractor, frowns on them, but when he came to
help me install the plumbing for my ice maker he decided discretion is the
better part of valor (he wanted to spend time with his daughter, not me) and
used one instead of soldering in a T.

The one I used was made to join 1/4" tubing into a 1/2" line, and has a
built-in valve.  Mine came with the icemaker installation kit I got with the
refrigerator, but I'm sure they are available separately.

I don't know if the code allows these things.

Soldering is not that hard - it took me a while to overcome my fears, but
when I actually forced myself to do it, it was fairly easy.  I think I used
the Time-Life plumbing book as a guide (and wasted a couple of elbows and
feet of pipe practicing first!).  If you do solder under the cabinet, make
sure you watch out where you aim the torch and use some sort of heat shield
as a backstop if necessary.

< Note 2595.3 by ERLANG::BLACK >
               -< Use compression fittings and flexible copper >-

When using compression type plastic fittings on the dishwasher,
be sure that your house has a pressure regulator. When the
solenoid operated water valves operate; they send a tremendous
back pressure that can pop a leak in these compression fittings.

Using PVC is legal in some places but be sure they are rated for
HOT water (it's a beige colour versus the white PVC variety used
in garden sprinkler systems. Their fittings are a little more
expensive. Coming off your copper lines, you could elect to
solder a T fitting and a threaded 1/2" connector. Then simply
thread on a PVC fitting and glue to the other PVC pipe.  Word of
advise: set all your pieces together, then glue them. PVC is a
one-time process; you CANNOT reuse the pieces once the glue sets.
Use the plumber's teflon tape on the screw on connection to the
copper pipe.

Wish you well

cal

    
    	RE: .5
    
    	There are special fittings for transfering from copper to 
    	pvc.  They are called transition fittings (of course), and
    	they have a nylon washer to absorb the difference in expan-
    	sion and contraction between the two materials.
    
    	RE: .3
    
    	Yes, the adapter going to the dishwasher should be compression
    	instead of solder, but I wouldn't use any less than a 1/2 od
    	copper pipe.  1/4 seems awful small for the amount of water
    	needed to properly clean the dishes.  I've never seen a saddle
    	valve for the bigger copper pipes (1/2 od) but that doesn't
    	mean they aren't made.  If one can be found, it would be the
    	easiest way to install for sure.  The only detriment is that
    	on the smaller saddle valves, non-use of the valve for long
    	periods of time can lead to corrosion and not being able to
    	shut off the water when you want.

      For compression fittings, use  'Q*EST' (I hope I got that name
    right). By all means, aviod GENOVA compression fittings if you have 
    any water pressure whatsoever.  A friend had installed a dishwasher
    using the GENOVA fittings and they kept giving out at random times
    ...within a day or two. Once while he was at work, and the other
    while he was sleeping (he heard it pop). Needless to say, he had
    floods to deal with. I was swearing up and down how good the PVC
    stuff is to work with and I couldn't understand his problem with
    the compression fittings until he showed me what he was using. Spag's
    carried both brands.  I never noticed the GENOVA and he never noticed
    the Q*EST so we both assumed we were referring to the same fittings.
    The Q*est are very durable and the GENOVA appear and act very brittle. 
    He's had no problems since then (about a year) and I have no problems
    at all (about 1 1/2 years).
    
    
    BTW:  PVC pipe is rated for cold water *only*.
         CPVC pipe is rated for Hot and cold.

    
    
    -Jim
    

    Given the amount of vibration a dishwasher entails, I wouldn't
    trust any kind of supply line that wasn't flexible.  1/4" copper
    is best.  I don't think I'd use a saddle-valve - dishwashers need
    more of a supply than that.  Q*EST makes a polybutylene soft
    plastic pipe, but it is only rated to 120 degrees.
    
    As for the disposal, Kitchen Aid makes (or once made) a model that
    is actuated by inserting the "stopper" in the sink opening and turning
    it to a certain position - the stopper has a magnet that engages
    a reed switch in the housing.  My stepmother had this and loved
    it, but also insisted on a wall-switch in series with the integral
    switch.
    
    				Steve

Thank for all the advise here.

Last night I stopped at a local home improvement store, I check out their
plumbing section, they carry something call "compression tee". I saw the
one is for 3/8" pipe. Seems to me all I have to do is cut the existing 3/8"
hot water line to the sink and put this tee in the middle, and connect
another one to the tee without soldering and a valve because there is a
valve for that sink.

According to the installation guide come with the dishwasher, it call for
3/8" OD copper pipe for inlet. It look a little small but it is what is
asking for.

Siu Pong

    It would be a good idea to add a shut-off valve to the section of
    pipe going from the T to the dishwasher, in the event you want to 
    service the dishwasher and still have hot water available at the 
    sink.
    
    					Steve

Just last year we installed the type of disposall that note (.-whatever)
referred to - I think the brand name (or model name) was In-Sinkerator or
some such.  This type of disposall is called "batch-type" - i.e., you can
only do one batch of gunk at a time because you have to close the lid to
turn it on.  I insisted on it because I'm afraid of dropping a spoon or
something else down the continuous feed type while it's running.  The
batch-type are still made; there may be more than one manufacturer.

    Sorry that this is so late, it probably doesn't help much, but I
    got behind in reading this notes file (1000 notes left to go!).
    
    I just finished building and installing the kitchen cabinets in
    my home. I didn't install a dishwasher, but I did install a garbage
    disposal.
    
    The first thing that I would do is buy or rent the Hometime video on
    kitchens. They go through planning and installing cabinets, installing
    a sink and installing a dishwasher and a disposal. Seeing how it
    is done made actually doing the work much simpler.
    
    I used Q*est (is that the correct spelling?) to connect the water
    supply and haven't had any problems yet. If I do spring a leak,
    then I will probably go with flexible copper, but I don't anticiate
    any problems.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

    Re: .6, .3
    
    	When I said ` 1/4" flexible copper '  in .3, I was being sloppy.
    It is a bit more than 1/4" inside diameter, and I think that it's
    3/8" Outside diameter.  In any case, it is wahtever fits into the
    valve, so the choice was made by the maufacturer, not by me.
    
    	Yes, dishwashers use a lot of water ... but they use it slowly.
    They squirt small quantities of water through jets at the dirt on
    your dishes, and they do this for long time.
    
    	BTW, if the orignal questioner has got his dishwasher installed
    by now, it would be nice to hear about it!
    
    	Andrew
      

    My dishwasher is not getting (using) any hot water, although the
    only water source to it is a hot water line.  I can guess that even
    hot tap water, after splashing around a cold washer and dishes,
    will get cold pretty quickly.
    
    Does a dishwasher have a heating element to keep tap water hot?
     I know there is an element in the washer, but I assume it is for
    drying.  If there is an element, or if the one I can see in the
    washer also heats to water, I assume there is a breaker or fuse
    somewhere in the washer which might be bad.  
    
    Can anyone lead me to where in the washer I might troubleshoot this?
    It is a front loading GE that is probably 9 years old.  I know about
    the manuals which are available, but am looking for a quick fix
    before I find them.
    
    		Ben

    Yes there is a heating element for the water.  It should be the
    one you can see.  No in-washer fuse.

    re: .0, .1
    
    In the places I've lived, the elements that I could see in the 
    dishwashers were, to my knowledge, for drying. Last June, when we
    were shopping for a new dishwasher for our new house, we found that
    there are only a few dishwashers on the market that have a heating
    element for the water (I forget what brands). The others all used
    the hot water from your dhw supply.
    
    Steve
    

At 9 years old I would bet you do not have the water heating option (just 
as well).  They use the same drying element to heat the water BEFORE the 
washing starts, not to keep it hot.  The big trick here is to run the hot 
water in the sink next to the dishwasher just before turning it on.  This 
brings good, hot, water very close to the dishwasher so you don't fill it 
with the cold water in the line.  This will give you hot water to start 
with, i never thought to check the temp after it's done sloshing around.

Craig

The heating element in the washer works fine (it heats up, anyway) during
    the dry cycle.  So, if it is used for heating the water, it should
    be working.  I guess I need to see if this thing gets hot during
    the wash cycle.
    
    If there is no seperate heating element for water, and the element
    that I can see works O.K. for the dry cycle, most likely the situation
    is simply that my tap water is not hot enough for the washer.  But
    I can't imagine any tap water staying hot for the duration of a
    wash cycle when it comes in contact with a cold washer full of cold
    dishes (by cold, I mean a little below romm temp, around 60 degrees).
    
    Yup, it might be time for manuals or at least for a call to the
    nearest dealer.  I'll see if I can get them to answer some questions
    over the phone.
    
    			Ben

    Wait!  How do you know that the water isn't hot?  Do you know you
    have water at all?  One problem might be the source hot water. 
    It was recommended to me that 160 F is the minimum required for
    washing dishes.  Another problem might be volume of water.  If you
    have anything stuck in the sprayer doo-hickeys, the water will not
    get around in the dishwasher enough to get clean.
    
    Don't most dishwashers heat the water inside the machine for the
    final, sanitizing rinse?
    
    Elaine
    

    Some dishwashers heat the water, others don't (I think you save money
    in the long run by getting one that does, since you can keep the hot
    water heater lower).

    Why don't you call the GE Answer Center?  800-mumble (you can get it
    from 800 information (800-555-1212).

    O.K. FOLKS, THE PROBLEM IS FIXED.  HERE'S THE SUMMARY.
    
    There were basically 2 symptoms.  One is that the water in the washer
    was not hot (or staying hot), and the second is that the water in
    the washer during a wash cycle was only being pumped up to the bottom
    of the top rack, thus not actually washing the glasses on top.
    
    Both problems were caused by a clogged filter in the hot water valve.
     I had previously had a problem in my house which when fixed, resulted
    in lots of very dirty, rusty, old water being pumped throught the
    hole system.  This dirty water clogged my water valve in the
    dishwasher.
    
    This prevented the washer from filling up with enough water before
    it started to wash.  This in turn caused the water pump to work
    eratically and to not pummp with any force.
    
    As far as the temperature problem is concerned, again, the water
    level in the washer was not high enough to make contact with the
    heating element which does in fact heat the water during a wash
    cycle.
    
    I love it when a plan comes together.
    
    		Ben

Well, we goofed.  For our new house, we told the plumber and the electrician
"We're putting a dishwasher right here".  First the electrician installed a
dedicated outlet.  We shopped around and got a regular (non-portable)
dishwasher.  The plumber plumbed it.  Guess what?  No electric hook-up.  Why?
The dishwasher doesn't have a cord - it needs to be "hard-wired".

OK, I can do that.  But can I use the outlet, assuming it's out-of-the-way
enough to let me slide the machine all the way to the wall?  The installation
instructions (which I read AFTERwards) illustrate the junction box method.
Can I use my outlet box?  Or, at least, its hole-in-the-wall?

    You probably could with a few "ifs". Is the outlet by the dishwasher
    on a dedicated circuit (no other outlets on that circuit)? If so,
    then you could remove the outlet and use the box as a junction only,
    with the dishwasher hardwired in. If not, you "might" be able to
    install a cord which has a twistlock plug (and matched receptacle)
    for the rated current. The "might" depends on your local code.
    
    Eric

NEC 422-8 Flexible cords. (d) Specific Appliances (2) Built-in dishwashers
and trash compactors intended for dwelling units and provided with a Type S,
SO, ST, STO, SJ, SJO, SJT, SJTO, SPE-3, SP-3,SPT-3, three conductor cord 
terminated with a grounding type attachment plug shall be permitted where all
of the following conditions are met:

	a. The length of the cord shall be 3 to 4 feet
	b. Receptacles shall be located to avoid physical damage to the flexible
cord.
	c. The receptacle shall be located in the space occupied by the
appliance or adjacent thereto.
	d. the receptacle shall be accessible.


O.K., there is an exception that allows double insulated appliances (so marked),
to do without the grounded wire. I would say the receptacle to be accessible: if
you could reach it through the access panel in the bottom of the unit. The other
conditions are met if the receptacle is located in the dishwasher cabinet slot.
SJ type flexible cord is readilly available at any hardware or electrical supply
house.

Ross

re: < .12

Thanks.  I *think* this matches what a friend told me - "get a pig-tail".
This is supposed to be like a range- or dryer-cord but for normal 110 stuff.
I guess it ends with wires which I'll wire-nut to the ends on my dishwasher.
My friend also said to make sure it's long enough to reach the dishwasher
*when it's completely pulled out* into the kitchen, so the "3 to 4 feet" you
cite corresponds as well.

I only have a black and a white wire.  All I have to figure is what to do
with the ground, but the installation instructions concerning the junction
box should be adaptable.

> SJ type flexible cord is readilly available at any hardware or electrical supply
Just to make sure.  Would his "pig-tail" and your "SJ" cords be the same?

RE:13    I think what your friend is referring to is a ready made appliance 
cord. You can make up your own cord by purchasing 4 feet of 14/3 SJ wire and
a "quality" plug. Make sure you use a strain relief connector at the dishwasher
junction box. (Romex connector will do). You might want to have the electrician
come back and make up the connections for you. Don't take chances to save a few
dollars.

Ross

    I believe "accessible" means that you can get to it by dismantling
    something in front easily with ordinary tools (screwdriver etc).
    Essentially "inaccessible" means burying in concrete, or in an attic/
    crawspace with no entrance, or inside a wall with no access hatch
    or the equivalent.
    
    At least this is the case with ordinary junction boxes, and the
    NEC is usually careful about consistency in terminology.
    
    So I suspect that even if the dishwasher completely blocks the outlet
    (you can't get at it via the hatch in the bottom front), then it
    is still "accessible" since unfastening and pulling the dishwasher
    out is a simple, reversible, job.    

>< Note 1786.15 by BOSTON::SWIST "Jim Swist BXO 224-1699" >
                                -< Accessible? >-

Partially correct.


Article 100 ----DEFINITIONS

Accessible: Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging structure or 
finish, or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
(See "Concealed" and "Exposed")


This statement leaves a little interpretation room. If I was the Electrical 
inspector, I wouldn't pass a dishwasher wiring hookup that required the
disconnecting of plumbing, support brackets, etc., to get at the plug and 
receptacle. You should have access through the bottom access plate.

Ross

re: .16

> If I was the Electrical 
> inspector, I wouldn't pass a dishwasher wiring hookup that required the
> disconnecting of plumbing, support brackets, etc., to get at the plug and 
> receptacle. You should have access through the bottom access plate.

Wait a minute.  Are you saying my plug or hard-wired junction box should be
screwed/mounted on the floor right at the front (underneath) the dishwasher
*to be accessible*?  I can add a junction box of sorts in amongst the guts
just behind the access panel - this won't be more than wire-nutted connections,
though.  If I go from this setup to the standard wall plug mounted on the wall
in back of the dishwasher, won't this satisfy some accessible-minded inspector?
This _is_ a dedicated circuit.

Just get a 15 amp grounded cord and plug it in.  If the outlet isn't easily 
reachable with the dishwasher in then you'd better have enough cord to plug 
it in first.  It'll pass any inspection.  Also, a ways back you mentioned 
having only a white and black wire.  Look again, there's a green grounding 
screw in the junction box on the dishwasher.  

Craig

>Wait a minute.  Are you saying my plug or hard-wired junction box should be


No, What I'm saying is you should have access to the outlet through the
dishwasher access panel. This really shouldn't be a problem, unless the 
electrician placed the outlet too high. If the outlet is within 18 "
of the floor and offset to the right of center (Best). You should be
o.k.. There isn't a lot of harware at the very bottom of the machine.
Give me a call if you have any other questions. 

Ross

    I have installed 2 diswashers so far and each time I put the plug
    in the next cabinate.  put a hole through the wall and eather pulled
    out the drawer in one case and the other was just a matter of opening
    the cabinate to access the electral box.

        I wonder how this will fly.....
                
                Iknow that having a piece of romex that will connect to
        the terminals on the dishwasher is OK. Those terminals ARE
        accesable with the dishwasher in place. Since they are the only
        point to which you can reasonably connect the cord with the plug
        on the other end, these terminals will STILL be very accesable.
        Would this allow an "inacessable" (i.e. pull the dishwasher)
        plug? You will still have a point (the terminals on the
        dishwasher) to do the disconnect which is accesable AND DESIGNED
        FOR IT! I'm no inspector, but I would think that this should be
        ok.
                
                /s/     Bob

I recently installed a DW and have run into the following problem. When I wired
it I wired directly to a 15amp breaker in the panel. If I connect the bare 
copper wire to the strain relief at the panel end, and turn on the DW, the 
breaker trips, but if I disconnect the copper wire I works fine. Did I possibly
miss something along the way? I looked for a ground bar in the panel but all I
found was the hot terminal on the breaker and the return (white wire) bar at 
the side of the panel box. The feed to the return bar goes to the water pipe
coming in from outside. Shouldn't the ground wire go to the water pipe???

/cowboy\

    		Sounds like you have a short from HOT to Ground somewhere 
	in the wiring  or Dishwasher.  This would explain why the breaker 
	trips when ground wire wrapped around wire clamp. 
	
		The second problem you  might have depending on how old a 
	service/box you have is where  are  the  grounds  for the rest of 
	your wiring connected.  They should  be  connected along with the 
	white wires at the neutral bus bar.   Why are they wrapped around 
	the  wire  clamps?    This  is  not proper  according  to  todays 
	standards. 
	
				...Dave
							
				

>breaker trips, but if I disconnect the copper wire I works fine. Did I possibly

Be careful, something is wrong.  If there was no problem it wouldn't make 
any difference if the bare ground was disconnected at the panel.  The fact 
that it causes the breaker to trip pretty much means that it is carrying a 
short circuit back to ground (the panel box itself).  It also means that 
when you disconnect it you've got a potentially hot wire within arms reach 
of the best ground in the house!

Somehow you have to find what is charging the bare ground wire.  If it is 
hot only when the dishwasher is on that means the dw itself is at fault 
somehow (the on switch is charging the body of the dw).  If somehow you
wired the hot wire to ground then the whole damn dw might be hot when the
ground is disconnected down below.  I'm sure there are a half dozen other 
ways to skin a cat but you get the idea.  Keep us posted, this is an 
interesting one.

Craig

	Getting back to dishwashers...

	I have 28 year old dishwasher that runs suprisingly well
	considering its age (not sure of the make).  The problem
	is that when it first starts it makes a screeching noise
	for about 10 seconds.  After that, it makes the normal 
	dishwasher noises.

	Any ideas on what the screech is all about?

    
    
    		I think it may be trying to get your attention to
    	find out your feelings about Euphenasia....
    
    	8^)...

    Could be that the pump is running dry for the first ten seconds
    becuase water isn't getting to it; that, in turn, may be caused
    by a reluctant solenoid-controlled inlet valve, either gummy or
    just tired out.
    
    Ours is 16 years old; our repairman stated that, unless the
    water pump fails, it will always be cheaper to fix than replace.
    
    Newer ones are quieter because they're more heavily insulated,
    and they have more control options that you won't use, but
    there's really not too much technology involved in spraying
    water on dirty dishes.
    
    pbm
    

I am in the process of installing a new dishwasher.  The installation
    documentation indicates that the supply wiring used must have a
    temperature rating of at least 70C (158F).  
    
    Is Romex adequate for this?  If not, what type of wiring has 
    this rating and would satisfy this requirement?

    Topic 843 may contain some useful related information.

In Colorado, it is ok to install a dedicated outlet for the
dishwasher. On the washer, I installed a grounded plug to plug in
under the sink. The other outlet was switched to control the
garbage disposal.

cal hoe

    Is Romex adequate for this?  If not, what type of wiring has 
    this rating and would satisfy this requirement?


    1984 NEC (sorry don't have an 87 handy) Article 336-2 says in
    part; .....Conductors shall be rated at 90 degress C (194
    degrees F).  Temperature sounds ok.

    Type NM or Romex is for dry locations.

    Type MNC (very similar) is for damp or wet locations.  Sounds
    a lot like UF, but without the direct burial capability.

    Peter Duke

    
    
    
    >>>>> Thanks... I think that answers my question.  Apparently the
    70C requirement is a flag for installations in houses that may have
    the older 60C rated wiring.  Using Romex made today which is 90C
    rated should do the trick.  Using the MNC for damp locations is
    a good idea.
    
    /Rgds
    
    
    
    

I have 17 year old portable-but-built-in Sears Lady Kenmore dishwasher that
came with the house I just bought and am in the process of overhauling it a
bit.  (There's a leak for one).  While it's all pulled out from under the
counter (motor/pump disconnected) etc. I was wondering about a couple things.

1) the upper rack is circular and not real space efficient.  Is it possible to
replace that with another rack?  Sears doesn't have another rack designed
for tha model I have other than the same circular one.  It seems I could take
out the tracks (that run across the top) and reinsert a rubber washer/screw to
seal the track mounting holes and then mount side tracks (that are on most
rectangular rack models (right?).  Anyone ever done this before?  Are shelve
sizes standard?

2) Since it's a portable that has been built in, the blower/vent merely vents
up the outside of the tub (no vent the front) and under the cabinents.  I don't
think all that heat/moisture under the cabinents is too good.  So I'm trying to
decide how I can get this vented elsewhere.  Anyone ever dealt with a similar
situation?  How should I vent it?  (BTW, the kitchen isn't large enough or
designed to make it a portable (i.e. buy casters and counter top etc.)

3)  The inlet line was a corrugated copper pipe that I unfortunately destroyed
getting out.  Where can I get a replacement?  Sears didn't have one.  I haven't
used the flexible copper tubing before (non-corrugated though) but since
quarters are awfully tight (hard corners) I'm not sure that will do the trick. 
Would a standard rubber hose used to connect washing machines work?  That must
be how portables are connected anyway right since it must be real flexible?

                                                            _Mike

    I have instslled at least a doz. dishwashers or so. By the time
    you find parts to up grade this one something else will let go that
    will cost more than the whole thing is worth . What I sugest is
    sell it for what it is worth and buy a new one. There not that that
    much compaired to agrevation and time, there also much less to operate.
       
    
    
    Lou Raymond
                          

re: .1

Thanks for the suggestion.  I wish I'd ask this before I put the time I already
have into it.  But, now I think with minimal effort I can get it back together
and fixed.  (Parts so far are <$40.)  Also, are several other things I'd
like/need to invest in first before a new dishwasher. And when your monthly
payment goes from a $675 rent to a $1600 mortgage, money get's tight real fast
:-).

>1) the upper rack is circular and not real space efficient.  ...

Sears said new ones cost $40 (if it fit) so I wouldn't go for that.  I was
hoping maybe I'd find a used upper rack to install. (Anyone have a broken
"parts" machine?  Another catch her though is I wouldn't want an entire machine
cause it would cost me $25 to leave it at the dump when through.) But anyway,
this rack issue isn't real important.  I could live with the circular one for a
while.


>2) Since it's a portable that has been built in, the blower/vent merely...

Looking at this again, I may be able to mount a (thin) board of some sort (with
a moisture proof side to go face down) and mount it on the top (where a normal
counter top would go) with the front 1+ inch cut off.  It looks like this
should seal it pretty good and the hot/moist air could only escape out the
front then.  It would be pretty cheap/easy to do, so I'd be willing to give it
a shot (i.e., invest the time/money).

>3)  The inlet line was a corrugated copper pipe that I unfortunately destroyed
>getting out.  Where can I get a replacement?  Sears didn't have one.  I haven't
>used the flexible copper tubing before (non-corrugated though) but since
>quarters are awfully tight (hard corners) I'm not sure that will do the trick. 

Some of the corrugated stuff is still good (possibly enough to get the line out
from under the machine.  Re-using what's left of it, I have more room and
options to finish the connection to the tap of the sink hot water line.  So two
question still?  Is it easy/cheap to get a connector of some sort put on the
broken end of the corrugated copper tubing?  Is there some way I could then add
another 2-3 ft span to finish the link to the hot water source (which has a
female threaded connector on the end of some copper pipe)?

I really don't want to take on any/much soldering work if possible since I've
never done it before nor have the tools.  

And the other option is to run a rubber hose the entire span...  Yes? No?
Maybe?

Still looking for more answers/suggestions...

                                                            _Mike

Well, months later and I'm still at this thing!   I'm getting real sick of
washing dishes by hand so fixing this thing is getting bumped in priority.

(.1 was right about always finding one more thing that's broken.)  So now I've
spent ~50 bucks.  It's 95% back together now. (BTW, I found some flexible
steel-reinforced tubing at Sommerville Lumber that is claims to be specially
made for dishwashers to replace the corugated copper tubing inlet line.)

The easiest part is giving me the biggest PITA.  I got a new door gasket (and
baffle) at Sears for my model and installed it but now the door won't close all
the way.   The lower two corners of the door are hitting the gasket so it won't
close all the way.  In fact, at first I could barely get the latch to catch. 
With a little steady pressure, I've managed to get it to catch but still � inch
away (betweentop of door and top front edge of the tub) from getting it
completely closed.


Has anyone ever had this problem before?  Especially with old Kenmore machines
:-)?

The gasket installation is pretty basic so I don't think I screwed that up.   
I called and double-checked part numbers and that's not the problem.  (Those
people in the parts dept. sure aren't too helpful when it comes to advice
though.  All they seem to be good at is looking up part numbers.)

Maybe .1 (whose done a dozen or so installations has seen this problem :-)?

                                                                _Mike


Gee, Mom and Dad gave me $100 with a picture of a dishwasher for Xmas.  Maybe I
shoulod take their hint :-)  I just hate wimping out on my first new homewner
DIY appliance repair project.  Besides with the 1�" raised kitchen floor I
have, installing a new one would be a real pain (have to remove motor).

Mike,
	I can't say that my problem was the gasket preventing the door from
closing, but the door on my kenmore dishwasher is adjustable. The screws
that attach the door to the hinge are grooved so you can loosen them and
adjust the door. My problem; a leak and when I replaced the door seal I
still had the leak.......adjusting the door fixed it.

		Bill

    
    One more question - the other note 2477 said to check the float.  What
    is the float - where do I find it?  Sorry if it sounds like a stupid
    question, but I don't know anything about appliances.
    
    Sue

    This note will probably get moved to 2477, since it is a similar topic.
    
    The float is usually a plastic hollow piece that is near one of the
    front corners on the bottom of the tub,  It moves up (floats) when
    water enters the tub - the purpose is to shut off the water if the
    level becomes too high.  Move it up and down and see if it is stuck -
    you should hear a click as the float switch turns on and off.
    
    				Steve

    Sounds similar to the problem I had.  If you follow the intake hose to
    the shutoff valve there is a little filter screen just before the valve
    that can get clogged.  If you disconnect the hose, it is accessible. 
    This is the exact repair that is shown on the ads for the home repair
    books on TV (time-life?).

       <<< SERENA::SERENA$DUA2:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3837.0                                                            4 replies
HPSRAD::LINDSEY                                      24 lines  25-MAY-1990 12:52
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Our dishwasher decided to quit last night and I wondered if anyone else
    had a similar problem with theirs.
    
    When it started, it had a funny noise (different than usual), but water
    was sloshing around and I figured oh well, its getting old.  Wasn't
    running for more than a few minutes, when I decided to open it, close
    it and try to start it again hoping the strange noise would disappear.
    It didn't and in fact open opening it again, found that no water was
    coming out anymore and the arms were not spinning and I suspect the
    central thingy that spreads water to the upper rack never moved up.
    (sorry for the "technical" language!)
    
    I looked over the other dishwasher notes and one seemed close to the
    same problem but I am not sure if its exactly the same since their
    dry dishwasher was an intermittent problem.
    
    Oh, its a MAGIC CHEF - 4 years old.
    
    Thanks, I would like to get it fixed or replaced asap.  I HATE doing
    dishes.
    
    Sue
    

    My Whirlpool dishwasher motor sounds like my table saw, and it appears
    to be binding when I try to turn it by hand.  I'm going to pull it off
    and look at it but here's my question:
    
    Where can I get a replacement motor cheap?  Does anyone know of a
    discount or used appliance parts store?
    
    Thanks!
                            --tom

    I get my appliance parts at Harrity Appliance Service Co., 34 Cambridge
    Street, Worcester.   791-8312.    If you ask for Jack Harrity, and tell
    him George Dvorak sent  you,  and  that  you work for DEC and will tell
    lots of people he gave  you  a good deal, he might give you a discount,
    although I can't promise anything.
    
    Grins,
    
    George Dvorak

Ok, here's one.  The sears dishwasher will drain... when cool... but not 
when hot.  And, when the machine is running, there is a plastic_melting smell,
like the one when you leave tupperware on the heating element.  What happens is
that it will drain when cool, but when hot, nothing, not even a sound.

this is a 1985 sears model #1557.

I don't see the solenoid mentioned in earlier notes (I have the parts book in 
front of me).

						.dave.

    I have a two year old hotpoint ( GE ) dishwasher that needs repair.
    
    the symptoms are ;
    	- A loud grinding noise (like something is spinning against
          something else )  during certain cycles.
        - The noise is not present during drain cycles.
        - The noise appears to eminate from the machanical area below the
          washer and not from inside the actual wash chamber.
    
    any ideas would be helpful. Id like to fix it myself to save a few
    bucks if possible !
    
    thanks

It's probably a bad bearing in the pump-motor assembly.  You can replace
the pump-motor - it's usually straightforward but hard work on most
dishwashers.  I've done it on an old Kenmore with the dishwasher still
in place, but it's much easier if you can pull it out.

			Steve

    does the bad bearing make sense if there is no noise when it drains ?
    
    are diiferent pumps used to fill the machine and drain it ?
    I had ruled out the pump since I thought it did both !

It's the same motor but it engages different impellers, so it might
explain it.  However, I'd be hesitant at making that repair just on
the basis of my interpretation of your explanation of the noise.

You can expect to pay somewhere around $75-$125 for a new pump.

			Steve

    well since the noise is only on the pumping in and not the pumping out
    cycles. I'd tend to think the problem is in the impellar assembly.
    
    thats probably no picnic to fix either ! although it probably costs
    less than a new motor !

    We had a problem with a hideous grinding sound which occured at
    cycle changes (not always). It turned out to be a bad timing
    mechanism which wasn't *quite* putting out enough oomph to set the
    drain relay into the [open or closed, don't recall which]
    position. So the relay clattered like mad for a while until it
    finally got set. [First time it happened, three cats were eating
    dinner two feet away. Within a millisecond, no cats in sight, but
    cat food all over the place.]

    We first tried replacing the relay, but that didn't help; had to
    replace the timer.

    Our dishwasher (also Hotpoint, about a year old) has a soft food
    disposer built in.  Once in a while it makes some loud grinding noises,
    probably due to some not-so-soft stuff that got in there.  Any chance
    that could be your problem - maybe a piece of a plastic fork got down
    there?  Time to start taking things apart and take a look.

    Couldn't really find a better note for this one.
    
    Does anyone have any recommendations pro or con for portable full size
    dish washers?  I would tend to think that it being on casters and not
    installed it would tend to be noisier than an installed unit.  How
    about cost comparisons?  I just don't have the space for a built in
    right now and don't have the money for a full kitchen overhaul.
    And from what I've seen so far I'll actually get some usable counter
    space on top of it.  Maybe for the microwave and toaster over. (Of
    course I won't use them all at once...)
    
    any advice or a pointer to a better note would be appreciated,
    
    Thanks  Steve
                                           

I had a narrow, portable dishawasher.

It was a little noisier. It cost about the same as a built in. The biggest
hassle was with the hose. You have to make sure that it is seated on the faucet
properly, or you get wet. And sometimes the hose was a pain to pull in or
out of the back of the dishwasher.

The diswasher has most of the important features, and seemed to wash the dishes
as well as any installed dishwasher.

And it beat hand washing all those dishes ;-)

When the house is attached to the faucet you still can get water from the
faucet. There should be a button on the coupling to let water flow.

But, this water flows through the very end of the discharge hose.

The feature allows you to get water while the dishwasher is running. Just don't
try to get water at the same time the dishwasher is removing waste water.

I bought a full-size (Sears Best) portable dishwasher for a previous house.
It's definitely noisy, there's no cabinetry to muffle the sound.  However,
it did a good job and we just ran it over night when nobody had to be in the
kitchen to listen to it.

When we moved into our current house, I bought the conversion kit from Sears
and installed it under the cabinet.  You can't tell by looking that it was
ever a portable.

Go for it.

    re: conversion kit...
    
    That's interesting.  I didn't even think of that possibility.  I guess
    I should look for one that would offer a conv. kit.  Some day I'll get
    the kitchen done and at least I won't have to buy a new dishwasher.
    
    On the subject of noise though I would actually have thought that an
    installed unit would use the cabinets on either side and the counter
    top as a sounding board and would essentially make it louder than if
    it was free-standing.
    
    How much noise-loss did you encounter when you installed the portable
    with the kit?
    
    Steve 

My wife says that it got noticibly quieter after I installed it.  In
retrospect, a lot of the noise in "portable" mode was the water splashing
into the sink.

I would hardly call it "quiet" now, but it's probably typical - I have yet
to meet a dishwasher that I would consider quiet.

BTW, the other nice thing about the convertible is that it's full-size -
perhaps an inch skinier on the inside that a "normal" dishwasher, so it
really does hold a good-sized load.

    Great, and thanks for your help.
    
    The last thing I forgot to ask was about how much do you think one of
    these weighs?  I'll want to suprise my wife with it sitting in the
    kitchen with a bow, and not by a delivery truck coming at some random
    time.  I've got a Subaru wagon and was hoping to get a hand at the
    store (whichever it may be) and then a hand at the house, but is it
    something I can basically twirl around on my (small) 2 wheeler dolly
    by myself otherwise?
    
    Thanks
    Steve

    I installed a GE dishwasher recently.  I couldn't believe how light the
    thing was.  It was substantially lighter than the one I replaced.  The
    main interior parts are plastic now rather than coated metal.  If it
    wasn't so bulky, I probably could have moved it around myself.  My wife
    was able to give me enough of a hand to move it to whereever I wanted
    it.  I'm sure putting it on a dolly will be all you need.

A portable will weigh more than a built-in, but it's still not that bad.  If
you have a dolly, it'll be ok.

    Thanks much.    Now off to Percy's to check this DEC discount thing
    out.
    
    Steve

My GE dishwasher does nothing but make a humming sound when I try to
run it.  Any idea what this could be?  One note indicated a solenoid could
be the problem.  

Thx

Steve

ps  this is a cheap "contractor special" GE model.

During which part of the cycle do you hear the hum?  Does it fill with
water?

			Steve

I had a similar problem once.  The dishwasher thought it was full of water and
tried to run.  The cause was a baby bottle ring wedged under the water level
float.  All I heard was a hum.  Removed the bottle ring and it took right off.

I like it when repairs are that easy -- easy to check, cheap to fix!

								-- Chuck Newman

re last couple

  The unit filled (I presume "filled", there is quite a bit of water in the
bottom), then wouldn't continue the cycle, just hums.  No matter where the
timer knob is moved to, it still hums, won't drain, wash, nothin'.  However,
when the timer is put into just the right position, more water will enter, for
maybe 2 seconds, then back to humming.  I'll check the float tonight.

  steve

The pump may be jammed - unfortunately, the only way to really tell is to
take it out and look.  Don't let it run a long time just humming - you might
destroy the motor.

			Steve

    
    
    I had one once with similar symptoms. In that case the drain solenoid
    had been jammed by a piece of broken glass.
    
    

    I am wondering if anyone else has faced the following problem.  One (or
    some) of my "young helpers" has/have used the door to my dishwasher as
    a step or a seat.  The result is that the door is "sprung"--it takes
    some force to get it to close completely.  Before I go on the offensive
    and tear into the dishwasher (I think it's a Frigidaire), is there
    any advice anyone might have?
    
    Mark

    I found that when I've had such 'help' from the crumb-crunchers, all I
    had to do was loosen the hindge screws, move them a little, and tighten
    the screws.  I was happy and surprised.
    
    Hope you have such luck.
    
    John
    

    I am renting out a condo and my tenant call me and told that
    the dishwasher overflowed and flood the apartment.
    I know there is an overflow valve there, and I run the dishwasher
    through the whole cycle just last week becaus I there was a suspecion
    that it would not drain _sometimes_.
    Under what condition a dishwasher would overflow?
    

    
    	If the drain line Down stream of the "breather" is clogged, the
    water will squirt out of the breather.

    I have had dishwashers I could overflow (and did) by stopping it with
    water in it and starting it ofer again so it added more water. (I was
    checking out some problem and just made a big mess.)  But the ones I've
    purchased the last few years all start with a pump cycle to ensure no
    overflow.
    
    If the drain hose has a kink (pinch) in it, I supose(sp) it is possible
    to overflow it.  Or maybe your drain hose has a hole in it and just
    dumps on the floor.
    
    John
    

    
    I had one that overflowed because of tartar build up on the input
    valve. The programer shut of the valve and continued the cycle but
    water kept seeping in until it was above the level of the door seal
    and overflowed. Cleaning the valve fixed it fine.
    

    One condition I caused was to block the sink drain while running the
    dishwasher.  The dishwasher drain hose connects to the garbage
    disposal.  If no air is allowed to enter the sink drain, the water
    cannot leave the waste pipe fast enough and the dishwasher basin fills
    with water and overflows onto your floor.  
    
    I had blocked the sink drain to fill the sink with water to wash the
    floor while the dishwasher was running.  It's the kind of thing you do
    only once.

     
     Hi, I  hope  someone  can  help  with this one.  I have a KitchenAid
     Dishwasher that has  given up rinsing the soap powder off of the top
     shelf of dishes!
     
     I have verified that  the jets work at least once through the cycle.
     If we use liquid soap,  then the glasses do not have a scum on them.
     Any time we use powder there  is  powdery  grit left on the glasses,
     not just scum.  I took a  look with the Time/Life book, but that was
     no help.  Could it be that the  soap  is  distributed too late?  The
     dishes seem clean otherwise though.  
     
     What can I check?

I don't know what the set up of the jets is in your dishwasher, but if I had
that problem with mine, I'd take off the spray arms and find out what is 
clogging them.  In my Whirlpool, the bottom arm has a nut to unscrew.  The top
arm just clips on the top shelf.  Check all the holes to be sure they are not
blocked.  Shake it to be sure there is not a large chunk which can get lodged
sometimes, and rinse the whole thing out.

Elaine

    Low water pressure could be causing your problem.  Another possibility
    is that the water isn't hot enough.  Also, if their is a partial clog
    in the water line to the dishwasher or a clog within the dishwasher so
    an inadequate volume and pressure of water is coming out of the spray
    arm, this could cause your problem.  Finally, there is a water shutoff
    in the dishwasher.  It senses the water level in the bottom.  If it
    shuts off the water prematurely, this could cause your problem.
    
    Good luck.
    

    I had the same problem.  The water feed going into the washer had rust
    particals in the metal filter.  This allowed less water to enter the
    washer.  so in washing and rinsing there is not enough water to do it
    properly.  The top self gets less water than the bottom, because of the 
    low level.  I just cleaned mine last week for the 3 time.  (every 4
    months).  Worcester had the water pipes cleaned and my hot water tank
    is fullof rust particals.  Call me at dtn 264-1754 and I will step you
    through it.     David.

Can you document the step-by-step directions for the rest of us?

Ed..

    I have a GE Dishwasher that worked just fine for years and then quite
    suddenly (over a period of a few months) stopped cleaning the dishes.
    This is not a problem with
    "film", it's a problem where food particles get washed off one thing
    and get evenly distributed among the others so everything comes out
    gritty.
    
    I can get around the problem by thoroughly rinsing the dishes before
    putting them in, but you have to question the point of having a
    dishwasher if you're going to do that.  I called a repairman who took
    it apart and put it back together and found nothing wrong.  I would
    have guessed a clogged filter or something but it's hard to imagine
    something so obvious would have escaped him.
    
    Things I have suspected: the town water getting harder; the thermostat
    in the dishwasher failing causing the water to be colder; a clogged
    filter somewhere.  I'd be willing to throw it away and buy a new one if
    I were confident that would fix the problem, but I'm not.
    
    Has anyone seen a problem like this?  Does anybody know a diagnostic
    genius repairman in the greater Maynard area?  Any other suggestions?

    I had a similar experience a few years ago...traced it to a faulty
    inlet solinoid.  The washer wasn't getting enough water into the unit
    to clean properly.  It could also have an inlet screen that is clogged,
    but the repairman "should" have seen that.  Open the door during the
    wash cycle and check the water level. Also check the water temperature,
    it should be in the 140 Degree + F range.
                                     

    I second the low water probable cause suggestion.
    
    > ...traced it to a faulty inlet solinoid.
    
    The problem with mine turned out to be a sticky overflow thingie (forget 
    the proper term) inside the dishwasher cavity not sliding back down as the
    water drained, so the switch that it was supposed to hit when down to
    tell the dishwasher to fill with water on the next cycle wasn't being
    depressed (turned on).  Strangely though, most of the time, it would
    fill with very little water, fooling us into thinking it was working ok
    because we heard water going in, but there simply wasn't enough water
    to clean properly.  Other times, no water was heard at all...
    
    Anyway, the short-term fix was to slide this overflow thingie (sorry,
    wish I could recall the proper term) up and down lots of times until it
    moved freely.  The long-term fix, apparent when the short-term fix was
    needed every week or so, was to remove the overflow thingie and give it
    a thorough cleaning (ie. wipe off all the mineral/whatever residue). 
    Works great now!  And, the dishes are so clean, you can actually see
    yourself in them!  :-)
    
    John
    

My toddler kindly removed the float from the float valve in my dishwasher
one day.  No water at all, and the food gets baked on during the dry cycle.

It's one of those simple problems that you wish you had thought to look for
before taking things apart.

	The title of this note, Dry Dishwasher, explains my current
	problem.

	We just had it "repaired" a few weeks ago, all they mentioned
	was the float (we weren't home, had a neighbor let them in).
	Took less than 10 minutes and no parts were replaced.
	
	Assuming our problem is once again the float, and thanks to an
	earlier reply I know what/where it is -- how do I take it off/out
	to clean it?  I already verified that it moves up and down,
	making a clicking noise, so I'm ready for the next step.  It
	doesn't appear to just lift off, it seems to be sort of attached
	to its little post -- should I just use a little more oomph in 
	pulling it off?  Or should I be looking for some fastener or 
	something to loosen?  

	Company is coming tomorrow night so I want to do my best to get
	it fixed tonight!  If I need to check the hose referred to in
	an earlier reply, where do I find that -- is it underneath or
	should I be looking under the sink at that plumbing?  

	Thanks for any suggestions,

	Jan(.)(.)

In our case, something (a baby bottle ring) got between the bottom of the float
and the floor of the dishwasher, so that the switch in hte float was always in
the "up" position (although I could still manually move the float up some more.
All I had to do was move the obstruction from beneath the float.  It dropped 
back down to its original position and everything has worked fine since.

								-- Chuck Newman

    Jan, do NOT use a little more "oomph" to pop the float off!  My wife
    did exactly that, and broke the tip of the float shaft off because of
    the little c-clamp at the tip.  Doing this caused me to realign the
    switch to compensate for the shorter shaft length, and it took lots of
    trial and error, filling/emptying the dishwasher, to get the water
    level right.
    
    So, if you wish to remove the float, the way to do it is to remove the
    bottom panel and remove the c-clamp from the float shaft.  While you're
    in there, you may want to check the switch position, and, if you're
    considering playing around with it's alignment, as with anything
    tinkered with, mark it's original position!
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    John
    

	My Kenmore dishwasher has been leaking through the collection
	of pumps, grills, and gaskets in the bottom center of the tub.

	I asked the Sears parts people how to get a manual.  "Can't",
	they said.  (I didn't bother getting assertive about it; I just
	fired Sears.)

	Two questions:

	  1. Has anyone dismantled the mechanicals on one of these machines?

	     I removed the four mounting screws, and the motor allowed itself
	     to be rotated, but the machinery must be held in by fasteners
	     inside the assembly, since I couldn't remove anything.  Is there
	     a secret to getting the motor/pump assembly off the machine?

	  2. Has anyone hired one of those appliance-repair persons to
	     repair a similar problem?

	     I'm willing to pay someone who _knows_ what to do with this
	     machine.  Any recommendations for the Nashua, N.H. area?
	     (E.g., about "knowing": you need a special alignment tool
	     to reassemble the pump.  I won't let some commercial hack
	     push the thing back together without the tool.)

	Regards, Robert

Almost any independent appliance service person can handle the job - Sears
dishwashers are made by a company which supplies "OEM" models for many other
brands; they aren't a recognized brand in themselves.  Parts are readily
available.

Some years ago I replaced the motor/pump assembly on a Sears dishwasher
myself, after having bought the part from a local serviceman.  It took me
a few hours, but I did it and it solved the problem.

To remove the pump, you have to take off the sprayer arm and there is usually
some sort of retainer ring holding things in place, but yours may be different.

				Steve

<Almost any independent appliance service person can handle the job - Sears
<dishwashers are made by a company which supplies "OEM" models for many other
<brands; they aren't a recognized brand in themselves.  Parts are readily
<available.

  The Whirlpool dishwasher I have now is exactly the same as the Kenmore I had
back east except the old one was a portable and the new one is built-in.

Al

    Could be - I now recall reading that Sears switched to someone else
    for dishwashers a few years back.  But in the 70s and early 80s, it
    was another company.
    
    			Steve

    
    Our Sears model developed a leak recently, and we couldn't trace where
    the heck it was coming from.  Dismantled the door and found the
    service engineers guide & parts list was INSIDE the door!  I have
    it at home and will mail you a photocopy.
    
    Turned out to be a problem with the door seal, and it's been ok for the
    last few months.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

    
    Has anyone touched up the finish inside a dishwasher?
    
    I have a couple of rust spots, but can't find a suitable
    material to patch them.
    
    	
    Colin
    

RE:<<< Note 1806.30 by AKOCOA::CWALTERS >>>
    
Do you need to touch up the racks or the "box"?  There is a rubber-like
material available on the market specifically made for dishwashers to fill
in spots on the racks where the rubber coating has worn away. I was going
to buy some when we still had our old portable, but then we found a good
price on a new built-in.  So I cannot remember the name of the product, but
it does exist.  If the spots are on the box, try some non-abrasive scouring
cleanser.

Tim

    
    Thanks for the info. I'll go look for that.  The rust is on both
    the racks and where the rack has worn the coating on the door down to
    the metal.
    
    Colin
    

RE:<<< Note 1806.32 by AKOCOA::CWALTERS >>>

>    Thanks for the info. I'll go look for that.  The rust is on both
>    the racks and where the rack has worn the coating on the door down to
>    the metal.

You must have an older model because the box in your dishwasher is metal
with a plastic/rubber coating; mine is heavy plastic, which is why I
mentioned a non-abrasive cleanser.  The rubber stuff should work well in
either location.

If I can come across this material again, I'll be sure to post the name and
price.

Tim

    
    RE .25
    
    I found the service tech sheet for model number 1557.
    (Which also answers my own question about repairing the surface finish)
    
    There is an illustration of the motor, which only shows that there are
    4 bolts inside the motor top plate.  These seem to be screwed into the
    pump housing or mount bracket - so you can't drop out the motor wthout
    undoing these from below.
    
    The sheet also refers to 2 special tools required - a shim gage
    supplied with the seal kit, and a shaft centering tool to ensure
    correct seal pressure.
    
    Otherwise, it looks pretty simple.  (yeah - famous last words....)
    
    I'll drop you a copy in internal snail.
    
    Colin
    
                 

    Look at the simple things first.
    Our sears dishwasher somtimes "leaks" but the fix is very simple
    in the dishwasher on the left bottom is a plastic float that controls
    the water level in the dishwasher this can get gummed up with all kinds
    of interesting stuff. Remove it and throughly clean it in HOT water.
    
    BTW this has been the fix for several "leaking" dishwashers that I know
    of.
    
    Don 

	Re .34:

	I got the tech sheet today!  Thanks!

	I removed the motor, and found that the leak was from the drain
	fitting.  The fitting is a plastic tube that threads into the
	pump housing, with an O ring to seal.  The O didn't seal.

	The motor frame is encrusted with dried dishwasher-detergent
	gunk.

	It might be a good idea to look under your dishwasher every so
	often to be sure that it's not leaking glop onto its expensive
	moving parts.

	Regards, Robert.

    Good Stuff - glad it was useful.  Mine's making a peculiar nois right
    now, so I'll be under it this weekend. What fun :(
    
    Colin
    

    I have a Kitchenaid dishwasher that isn't draining.  I was playing
    around with it last night and it seems to work intermittently.  The drain 
    valve does open and close but it doesn't seem to stay open. Also when I 
    did get it to work the water drained and the pump just kept sucking air, 
    like the timer cycle was stuck. Before I spend money on the wrong part how 
    can I tell whether the problem is with the drain valve or the timer control?
    
    George

    No water is entering my dishwasher.  I disconnected the copper 
    connection to make sure there was water flowing - it's there. It just
    isn't entering the washer. Any suggestions on what it might be?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Chip

Float valve (which prevents water overflowing) stuck in off position?  Does
the intake valve open (you should be able to hear it click)?

		Steve

    
    Anyone need spares for a Sears Model 587-155702 (automatic water
    heating)?  $20 for the lot, already disassembled:
    	
    	inlet valve ass'y
        heating element
    	powder dispenser ass'y
        control panel (timer & program selectors)
    	drawers & runners
    
    motor & pump are shot.
    
    Send e-mail
    
    Colin (Nashua, NH)
    

    
      I am looking for a very reliable appliance (dishwasher) repair
      person/company (reasonable rates) in the Worcester area. I 
      understand the solenoid valve? in the dishwasher is broken. 
      After seeing those reports on Prime Time Live I'm somewhat wary 
      of going through the yellow pages.
    
      Any recommendation would be greatly appreciated.
    
      -i.b.
      

    I've had good experiences with a guy named Wayne Kelly out of Rutland.
He does it part time, is fairly inexpensive, treated me right and did a good
job.  I think his "day job" is in Worcester.  You'd have to call him to see
if he does Worcester calls or not...

    I wish he'd make a house call to San Francisco, but....

				886-2158

Al

We have a Kitchen Aid dishwasher, about 15 years old, that works fine
except that one of the two bins for detergent frequently doesn't open
during the cycle. Of course, if it is empty, it usually opens, and when
I do a test run, it almost always opens.  I took the door apart some time
ago, looking for anything obviously broken, like a spring or latch, but
couldn't find anything obvious.

Any suggestions?  Maybe the timer switch is only intermittently
triggering it?

Thanks.

Steve

    If your Kitchen Aid is anything like mine.......
    
    Those doors are spring loaded to pop open when released and are and
    held shut by a bi-metalic element latch device.  When current, as
    provided by the the appropriate timer motor outputs, runs through the
    latch, it latch heats up, curls up and away from the catch and the door
    pops open.  
    
    I have had problems with: 	
    
    	* alignment of the latch (too far down on the catch, therefore does	
    	  not pop up far enough), 
    
    	* corroded contacts where the connector plugs on to the element	 
    	  (reducing the current to the point where the element will not curl 
    	  away from the catch)
    
    	* soap-scum binding the doors around the pivot shafts.
    
    	* The small cardboard insulators hanging up the latch.
    
    	* A friend actually claims a bad bi-metallic latch, but I doubt it.
    
    
    	If you think it is the latch try swapping the latchs and see if the
    problem moves to the other door.  Then see if it moves back.  I guess
    that would convince me it is the latch.  However, I have always fixed
    the problem by looking at the other problems.
    
    Luck,
    Dave

    Don't worry about it, just chuck the detergent into the bottom of
    the dishwasher before you close it up.
    
    This does 2 things. One, you probably noticed that there is soap scum
    built-up around near the door of the dispenser. This will more evenly
    distribute the soap. 2, you won't have to fix the door.
    
    Cheers!

    re: .43
    I'm not sure how good a solution this is.  I think dishwashers go
    through a rinse cycle (water in, rinse, drain) before going through
    the wash cycle (water in, soap in, wash, drain), so if you just
    put the soap in the bottom of the dishwasher it will be gone by
    the time the machine gets to what it thinks is the wash cycle.
    

    re: .44

	    I believe it goes prewash (w/soap), rinse/drain, wash 
	(w/soap), rinse/drain and dry.

					Tim

>    I'm not sure how good a solution this is.  I think dishwashers go
>    through a rinse cycle (water in, rinse, drain) before going through
>    the wash cycle (water in, soap in, wash, drain), so if you just
>    put the soap in the bottom of the dishwasher it will be gone by
>    the time the machine gets to what it thinks is the wash cycle.
 

    re: .44
    
    	I have checked this scientifically. I opened the dishwasher just
    after turning it on. The dispenser door was open.
    
    	So for my Sears Dishwasher, amoung the first things it does is
    open the soap dispenser door.
    
    

    My GE dishwasher opens the soap door after two pre-rinses.
    
    Marc H.

    I have a SEARS (KENMORE) model 587-155702 dishwasher...
    starting yesterday, the thing only operates through the wash cycle, 
    the light stays on, but the timer moves no further.
    
    Whne I "manually" turn the timer, nothing happens as well (its supposed
    to go through the rinse cycle etc...), but they appear to NOT be
    working... does this sound like a "timer" problem, or something else?
    
    So, just really tyhe first cycle works, then it just sits there, even
    when turned by hand, none of the other functions work.
    
    Also, if it is the timer, are they difficult to replace?
    
    Any suggestions?
                                                            
    
                                    Thanks,
    
                                            Perry F.
                                           ----------

    
    It's pretty easy to replace.
    
    The service tech sheet/troubleshooting guide is stored inside the
    door.
    
    
    Check first:
    
    A couple of microswitches halt the timer until the first cycle is
    finished and the machine has emptied.  the float valve (white cylinder,
    front left corner) may be gummed with detergent residue.  If it doesn't
    pump out, the float valve switch will stay on.  The outlet may be
    blocked with gunk, preventing pump-out.
    
    If that is OK:
    
    The timer contacts for the second cycle may not be opening the
    inlet valve (I assume this valve is OK as the first cycle fills)
    the second time, so it's sitting "waiting" for the float valve to
    rise.  Try manually filling the machine to see if it restarts.
    
    I have a box of spares for this machine.  See note .40
    
    Colin
    

    Re: .41
    I have experianced a similar problem as my dishwasher has aged. To make
    it brief....I found that the load distribution on my model as it got
    older affects different things. I suggest you try doing a load with
    nothing in front of the bin with the door.
    Good Luck

    What's the easiest way to clean a dishwasher?  The inside of
    ours is accumulating large amounts of black gunk on the walls.
    I tried a soap scum remover but that had the distinct disadvantage
    of generating lots of suds when I turned the dishwasher on to
    rinse it out; it foamed out all over the floor :(.
    It did, however, seem to remove the gunk.  But now it's coming
    back worse than ever.
    

    
    I've seen a product made specifically for cleaning the inside of
    dishwashers, sold where they sell dishwasher detergent. Youmay want to
    check it out. I think it's called "glisten" or something like that.
    
    
     Bob
    

You should first try to find out where this "gunk" is coming from.  It may
be signalling impending destruction of your dishwasher.

				Steve

I have the same problem.  It seems to be the greasy residue left if you don't
pre-wash your dishes, like they tell you not to.

The Tang solution helps quite a bit.  Fill the soap dish with powdered Tang,
or generic equivalent.  Run through a wash and rinse cycle.  For us, this gets
most of it, except the edges, which we get with a sponge or a teflon "scrubbie".

Elaine

    We also had a build up on the inside of our dishwasher. My wife bought
    some product called "iron out" or something like that and ran a wash 
    cycle with that in the soap dish. The smell was increadbly bad but the
    results were amazing! We bought the stuff in the grocery store in the 
    soap/detergent section.
    
    Roger

    Don't just fill the dishwasher soap container with Tang: dump about
    half a jar of the stuff into the dishwasher and run it through a cycle
    - works great!  I will ahve to replace my 21-year-old dishwasher some
    time due to rust, but this method cleans out most of the stains inside.
    
    /Charlotte

    I had a plumber suggest either citric acid (i.e. Tang) or oxalic acid
    (so-called "wood bleach") to remove stains and deposits from the inside
    of a dishwasher.  Never got a chance to try it (I moved)...
    
    tim
    

    
    	Tang. It works. And be generous with it on the first go 'round.

    I've used the Glisten product mentioned earlier - it does work - even
    on our clear dishes which become stained themselves.
    
    Barry 
    

    Another Vote for Tang, but be liberal in your dosage, after all, you
    won't want to drink the leftovers... :-)
    
    q
    

    Last night I finished entering a note asking for help to solve a
    clothes dryer problem, went upstairs and found that the dishwasher wasn't 
    working.  ARRRGHHHHHH.
    
    It doesn't drain properly.  I need to play around more to see exactly
    what it is/isn't doing but it doesn't seem to be draining during the last
    part of the cycle.  Seems like that points to a timer control problem
    but not to long ago (see the previous note) I replaced the timer control 
    for a draining problem and the machine has been working fine since then.  
    Before I replace this expensive part again how can I tell if that in fact 
    is the culprit?  If it was a solenoid would it work for just part of a
    cycle?
    
    George
    
    Hmmm...I hear that things come in three's.....I should probably start 
    reviewing those washing machine repair notes....
    

    From the try-the-easy-stuff-first school: I had an intermittent problem
    with my dishwasher draining. I checked all sorts of things to try and
    figure out what was blocked, etc. It turned out that when the previous
    owner installed the dishwasher, he used the sink drain as the vent
    stack. When the sink was stoppered, the dishwasher wouldn't drain. Now,
    everyone in the house knows to make sure the sink isn't stoppered when
    running the dishwasher and no more drain problem.
    
    Just a thought.

    
    
    I have a question regarding saving energy while running a dishwasher.
    I've heard that if you turn the machine off after the rince cycle, it
    won't hurt the machine and the stuff will dry in the residual heat. 
    It sounds too good to be true!  Anyone have experience with this?
    
    carol

    RE: .0
    
    My dishwasher has an energy saving switch...it turns off the heating
    coil during the drying cycle....sounds like the same thing.
    
    Me? I wouldn't bother....the energy saved is small, and during the
    winter (when you can dry the dishes with the dry house air), you
    need heat anyways.
    
    During the summer, you need the heater on, since the house air is 
    humid.
    
    Marc H.

I always open it and pull out the bottom rack after the rinse cycle.  I leave
the top rack in to prevent water from dripping onto the bottom rack stuff.

    My opinion is the savings is small and the glasses come out with lots
    of water spots if you don't use the heater.
    
    Judie
    
    

I too open the door and pull out the bottom rack, leaving it that way to dry.
Also gives me a chance to make sure make sure everything got clean (particularly
egg/bread/broiling cookware (which never seem to get *quite* clean), since it's
easier to hand-clean right out of the dishwasher.

								-- Chuck Newman

We NEVER use the drying cycle on any dishwasher.  Spotting on glasses is
usually the result of not using a rinse agent, and not from not using the
drying cycle.

The dishes dry in the hot humid summer, or winter no problem.  As to the
idea that using the drying cycle in winter not costing anything ... depends
on how you heat ... if your house uses electric heat, then as long as you
are in the heating season, then this is true ... but if your heat comes from
gas or oil ... it WILL cost you more!

Stuart

We don't use dry cycle and we don't use a rinse agent, and we still don't get
spotting.

Re: .6

Same here.  Most decent dishwasher detergents (we use Electrasol) have
rinse agents included.

				Steve

	We also get no spotting. Depends in part on the hardness of your
	water, I'd guess...

	We don't use the drying cycle, and open the door and pull out the
	racks as others do. One beenfit is the extra humidity that gets into
	the air this way in the winter. Every little bit helps in a dry
	house.

	BTW, the electricity used by the drying cycle is negligible,
	according to both consumer reports and the report on energy used by
	appliances that I got from PSNH.

	Roy

    	We use the "energy-saver switch" all year around as well and don't
    	have any problems either. We also don't use a rinse agent. The
    	only problem we have with glasses is food not being washed off
    	sometimes (because the washer stinks) but spotting isn't bad.
    	Sometimes we open the door, sometimes we don't. Door open seems
    	to dry better and faster though. 

    	I have no idea how much running that heating coil costs, but I only
    	use it when I'm in a hurry like having dinner guests over soon or
    	something. Otherwise why use it when the dishes dry fine on their 
    	own hot from the washer....

	-Erik

    We have the energy saver button that gets pushed - use the sani cycle
    for washing plus CASCADE (with sheeting action ;8) )  -  hubby gets
    down and scrapes out the bottom of the machine every-so-often so that
    gunk does not keep whooshing up onto the "clean" dishes/glasses!  Make
    sure you clean the bottom of the washer!

    justme....jacqui

    p.s.  I just found out that the new WINDEX for glass/surface with
    	  degreaser works wonders on cleaning greasy kitchen cabinets,
    	  stoves, fridges, washers, etc....  no elbow grease needed...
    	  just spray and wipe with paper towels.  HEAVEN

    
    We also do not use the drying cycle in our GE.  
    When it finishes doing it's thing, one of us will pull the
    top shelf out enough to have the door open about an inch
    or so.   Never any spots, and they dry off in short order.
    
    Fred

    re: Humidity
    
    FWIW we use the energy saver setting and don't have problems with
    drying or spotting (we also have softened water).  
    
    I'm curious about the comments about the relative merits of different
    approaches regarding the introduction of humidity into the house.
    It seems to me that using the drying cycle, not using the drying 
    cycle, or opening the door during the drying cycle will all
    introduce the same amount of humidity, unless the second technique
    dries by dripping more than evaporation.  Am I wrong?
    
    Ken
    

I've never used the electric drying cycle on my unit - unless I get side 
tracked and forget to turn it off and pull out the bottom rack!  

I'd say that REGARDLESS of the drying method, you are introducing the same 
amount of moisture(absolute) in the air - unless you are power venting the 
thing outside :*)  So the humidity argument is just a bunch of bosh! The 
water goes somewhere - just goes a little faster with heat!

    
    Dishes are done in the sink and air dry in the rack.
    Dosnt cost but a cent or two.  Saves a lot on the electric
    bill and keeps you warm on thoes -20 nights!....:)
    
    

Re: .14

It depends.  A dishwasher usually uses less hot water and less energy than
hand washing, unless you're extremely frugal with the hot water in the sink.

					Steve

	re: Humidity

	Yes, the water goes somewhere, but given that the dishwasher is
	sealed with a rubber gasket I doubt it always goes into the air
	unless you let it.

	I guess it depends on how long you keep your door closed after the
	cycle (with or without drying heat) stops. If I run the dishwasher
	as I leave for a long weekend, the dishes will be dry when I come
	back. But I doubt that moisture got into the air -- it probably
	ended up dribbling down the drain after the air cooled. 

	However, if I run the washer, even with the drying cycle on, and
	open the door right away, a cloud of steam escapes; the mositure
	goes into the air (or somethinge, onto my windows 8^)).

	Roy

	FWIW, most American dishwashers appear to use between 10-12
	gallons of [hot] water per load.  The [more expensive] Europian
	models use as little as 5-6 gallons.

	As far as humidity goes, I believe the original author who
	brought it up was not talking about how much humidity it
	will *add* to the air, only the *fact* that if the air is
	humid to begin with it will take longer for the water on the
	dishes to evaporate by air drying.

    	To possibly revive an old topic:
    
    	First, I can't buy the claim that hand washing uses more energy
    than a dishwaher *unless* you leave the hot water running throughout 
    the entire process and run a motor and small space heater concurently
    ;-).
    
    	What would possibly tip the scales in favor of a dishwasher IMHO 
    would be a "radiator" collection tank which would hold the dishwasher's
    hot waste water and allow the heat to radiate into the house in cold 
    weather. Ideally, it would dump once it reached ambient temperature.
    
    	I let our portable dishwasher drain into the plugged sink and rarely 
    use heat dry. I get a lot of heat out of the waste water although the 
    wife claims it slimes the sink...
    
    	If you want to determine the cost of heat dry, find the wattage
    rating of the heater, measure the drying cycle time on your machine,
    and do the math.. Expensive heat if your primary source is
    non-electric.
    
    Phil

    Re: .18
    
    Consumer Reports, in its October 1993 issue, disagrees with you.
    
    	While most major household appliances are now accepted as
    	all but essential, the dishwasher is still perceived as
    	slightly self-indulgent.  That image is at odds with the
    	price of a dishwasher (comparable to that of a clothes washer
    	or a dryer) and its energy advantage.  A dishwasher may use
    	so much less hot water than hand washing that lower costs for
    	the water heating could more than cover the electricity
    	consumed by the machine itself.
    
    	And dishwashers are becoming more energy-efficient.  Manufacturers
    	are preparing for a Federal standard governing energy consumption
    	that's due to come into effect next May, and many machines now
    	in the stores already meet the new standard.
    
    	...
    
    	The extra energy expenditure for heated drying is minimal - no
    	more than a few pennies out of the 9 to 14 cent energy cost of
    	running a load in the most energy efficient machines.

re .19:

Not necessarily.

>    	                                       A dishwasher may use
>    	so much less hot water than hand washing that lower costs for
>    	the water heating could more than cover the electricity
>    	consumed by the machine itself.
    
Where there's a "may" there's a "may not."  I'd imagine it depends on
hand-dishwashing style.

I note that for power drying it states that it adds pennies to the
9-14 cent cost of a load.

Define pennies ... 2 - 3 cents ...

this is 20 - 33% cost per load that is usually unnecessary.

Stuart

Re: .21

I agree; I don't use heated drying either, but a difference of 2-3 cents
per load (I do maybe a load per week) doesn't make that big a difference.

Re: .20

It's certainly possible to do dishes by hand with less hot water than a
dishwasher uses, but very few people do so, especially with the amount of
dishes a dishwasher uses.  What is your time worth, too? 

				Steve

I'm not arguing against dishwashers.  I'm just saying that it's not true that
CR says that dishwashers *are* more energy efficient than hand dishwashing.
They say they *may be* more efficient.

	Well there is another reason to use the dishwasher vs.
	handwashing.  The dishwasher washes dishes are *full* hot
	water strength (or hotter if you have water heat option)
	vs. handwashing where you'd burn your hands.  As such, the
	dishwasher *may be* more sanitary.

    The hotter the water the less grease, but unless you put them in boiling
    water I don't think you've sanitized them.

>     The hotter the water the less grease, but unless you put them in boiling
>     water I don't think you've sanitized them.

	I didn't say "sanitized", I said "may be *more* sanitary :-)
	140F is alot hotter than I guessing 100F or so people use
	for hand washing.

It doesn't matter; as soon as you take the dishes out of the hot water,
they'll become "unsanitary" again.

			Steve

> It doesn't matter; as soon as you take the dishes out of the hot water,
> they'll become "unsanitary" again.

san.i.tary \'san-*-.ter-e-\ aj [F sanitaire, fr. L sanitas] 1: of or
   relating to health : HYGIENIC {~ measures} 2: of, relating to, or used in
   the disposal esp. of domestic waterborne waste {~ sewage} 3: characterized
   by or readily kept in cleanliness {~ packages}

    The real savings is probably in the frequency of the wash and
    quantitiy.. they pile up in the dishwasher and the same amount of water
    does the whole load.  Generally we dont let dishes pile up in that
    quantity in the sink and run more water each time we wash.

re .29:

I think you've got it backwards.  Your dishwasher uses the same amount of water
regardless of how full it is.  With hand dishwashing, the fewer dishes, the
less water you use.

Re: .30

No, I don't think so.  There's a minimum amount of water you need to fill
up the sink bowl or whatever you use to wash the dishes in.  Even if you're
just washing one plate, you need at least enough water to immerse it.

If you only run the dishwasher when it is full, like a washer, it is at its
most efficient.

				Steve

You don't need to fill up the sink to wash dishes.  Apply detergent to wet
sponge or whatever (Heloise recommends nylon net).  Rub dish.  Rinse.  You
only need to have the water running to rinse, and you can batch it.

BTW, we have a dishwasher and use it.

	Boy, I don't think I've seen such a discussion over such a trivial
	topic in a while...

	If you run a dishwasher when it's full, it's probably more efficient
	than washing your dishes by hand.

	Doesn't that about cover it?

	Roy

	Yawn.

    
    No way!  Wait until we get to the part where different
    dishwashing soaps are more effective at different temps
    and soaking durations.........   
    
    "Do you rinse with hot or cold water?"
    
    Pom Olive
    
    

    What you need to do is build an air shredder into the dishwasher's
    drying cycle fan; that will make the air more absorbent and better
    able to dry the dishes.

    
    I put my dirty dishes into the back of my truck. When I have a full
    load I go the carwash. For $3.00 I wash my truck and more dishes than
    you guys will ever wash for such a pittance. 
    
    								- Mac

Do you have to do the undercarriage wash to get the bottom of the dishes?
Do you do the hot wax so you can see yourself?

    OH, so thats who used up all the hot water when
    I brought my load in........
    
    Cal Gonite
    

Dishes?  I thought the way to go was paper plates?

    
    -1
    
    No, I treed these. You just get a soggy pulpy mess in the bottom of
    the dishwasher....

    
    
    get a big dog.  They'll clean up the dishes with little energy use.
    in a pinch, a cat will do too.

    
    
    I have a problem with the cat part...  After drying the dishes
    it ends up I have to go back and pick the hair off the plates....
    
    

    ....and they tend to SIT on the dishes at any time during or after
    the process!  ;*)

 >     I have a problem with the cat part...  After drying the dishes
 >     it ends up I have to go back and pick the hair off the plates....

    {When the eyes don't connect with the brain...} -- for some reason I
    read the above as  "... and lick the hair off the plates...".

    Is it desirable to hook the dishwasher up to a GFCI breaker or will a
    standard breaker be adequate?
    
    Jamie

There's no requirement to put a dishwasher on a GFCI.  I wouldn't do it,
even though I use GFCIs almost everywhere.

				Steve

Often, dishwashers do not work well with GFI outlets.  The surge load of the 
motor is sufficent to trip the breaker.  We have one such installation and my 
brother_in_law, the licensed Master electrician assures me that the problem is 
common.  His advice was to try it and see.

Dave

    Thanks, I'll use my GFCI for the kitchen counter outlets I'm re-wiring. 
    The explanation in .7 makes a lot of sense.
    
    Jamie

    I have a dishwasher that the drain pump stays on no matter what cycle
    it is in or started in.  Sounds like it is not getting info to shut
    off.   Any clues what to look for?  What actually controlls the on/off
    cycle of the pump?
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ken

    
    Thanks for all the help and responses.  :-)
    
    I called a repair man and for $48 I'm back in business.
    
    (coroded connectors to motor/pump unit.)

I have a Kenmore dishwasher.  Electronically it seems to work ok but the dishes 
don't get clean.  Water doesn't spray through the lower or upper arms properly. 
In fact it seems that little water enters the lower arms and not much water 
comes up through the central cone to the upper arms.  I noticed 2 things about 
the center cone.  First it does not form a seal with the water outlet opening 
on the motor and second, it does not sit directly above the opening.  It seems 
to sit a little forward of it.  Are either of these things a problem or is 
that the way they are normally?  Where should I look for the problem?

Thanks,

George

    If the nozzles are not obviously clogged (remove and check
    them for bits - particularly small bits of plastic wrap)
    and the motor seems to be turning fine, you may have a worn
    or damaged pump impeller.  
    
    This happened with my Kenmore unit.  A glass broke in the washer
    and fragments got past the strainer and into the pump, damaging
    the nylon impeller.  Fortunately, it's pretty easy to replace,
    being bolted to the same shaft as the washer rotor.
    
    C

Well, I pulled everything apart and I still can't find the problem.  The motor 
seems to spin fine, no broken vanes on the impeller, no clogged nozzels.  The 
water comes through the lower arms and the arms spin but they spin slowly and 
the water just doesn't seem to have any pressure behind it.  The water also has 
no force when coming through the center outlet for the upper arms.  Any other 
ideas on what to look for?  Sears wants $40 just to walk in the door and give 
an estimate on how much it will cost to fix.  Also, this thing is only 7 years 
old and the instruction book is no longer available.  Think Sears is trying to
get people to buy their extended warranties?  Nah...

If anyone has a similar dishwasher and could lend me the owner's manual so I 
can make a copy I'd appreciate it.  The numbers on the dishwasher are:
Kenmore - 665.1576581 (model) or F64813399 (Stock).  At least I think that's 
the way it goes. The tag isn't real clear about what is the stock and what is 
the model number.

Thanks,

George

    
    There MAY be a service troubleshooting guide and parts list
    inside the control panel.
    
    How about the volume of water?  Any chance that the float switch
    is stuck or the fill sequence is off?  If the timer is turning
    as expected, then maybe the mesh screen in the inlet valve is
    obstructed or the solenoid might not be opening all the way.
    (This is under the kickplate on the right.)
    
    Either of these would cause the water level to be low, which could
    result in a weak spray.
    

The water level seems ok.  During spraying it doesn't get lower than the inlet
screen so the pump is never pumpng air.  How high is the water supposed to get? 
Don't know if it's significant but when the pump FIRST goes on the water comes
out with a lot of force - proven by my wet clothes and floor from having the
door cracked open - but immediately the pressure drops.

	This hand washing of dishes gets old fast.  It's not the washing but the
space for the drying rack.  My nephew had a good idea - wash the dishes and then
load them into the dishwasher and run the dry cycle.  At least that part works.

George

I presume you have checked your washer arms to be sure that nothing is blocking
the spray holes.

    
    The water will come out fast at first because the reservoir is full.
    But if it pumps faster than the reservoir can refill (although this
    would probably be visibly low).  Open the door and lift the float
    by hand.  It should move freely and you'll hear a slight click
    when the float switch closes.
    
    Pour in water from a jug, keeping an eye on the float to make sure
    it's rising and listen for the click.  That's the correct water level.
    
    

    Our GE dishwasher started to drip from the bottom of the door.  Looking
    inside the washer I saw that there was at least a couple of inches of
    water in the tub.  When we turned it off the dripping stopped.  I
    couldn't see anything obviously clogged and called the GE hotline. 
    They suggested that the door latch might need tightening so I did that
    but the drip problem seemed to persist.  I decided to take apart some
    parts inside the tub to see if I could find anything that looked like a
    problem.  Unfortunately I didn't bail the water out from the tub
    first...  I removed the spray tower assembly and also a plastic screen
    assembly and reached my hand inside the openings to search for
    blockages but didn't find any.  A few moments later I heard the sound
    of a small waterfall nearby and went down to the basement to find water
    cascading down from the ceiling.  Somehow I had caused the dishwasher
    to drain the tub contents out of the bottom of the machine which then
    drained down to the basement ceiling following the hole cut for the hot
    water line.  Has anyone had a similar experience?  Anyone have an idea
    what could have caused that to happen?  For some reason, not all of the
    water in the tub drained out - there is still some visible in the bottom
    of the tub and it stopped coming out of the bottom of the machine.  So
    it acts as if whatever I did that caused it to pour out from the bottom
    sealed itself back up somehow.

    
    	Anyone know what causes a dishwasher to fill with water and
    	overflow no matter if it is on or not? 
    
    							Scott.
    

        Leaking input valve in the water feed line
        

    
    Or perhaps it's siphoning back from the outlet.

    $5 says it's a buildup of sand and/or grit in the solenoid-contolled
    input valve.

When I had the problem it was grit in the valve. Running it through a couple
of complete cycles flushed it and corrected the problem.

    I've got $5 says its the solinoid also.  this was very easy to take off
    and clean up on my washer
    
    paul

We moved to Acton a few months ago and have noticed that our dishes 
are coming out of the dishwasher horribly spotted and our clothes are 
not coming clean.  

I use sunlite/cascade in the dishwasher, and tide/spray n' wash in the 
laundry - that has not changed since our last house.  

I called the water district and they said the water was "medium" 
hardness.     We have green stains in the tub and bathroom sink where 
the water drips, so I know we have copper.    

The dishwasher is older than Methusela, but the food residue comes off 
of the dishes, so they are "clean", but spotted/dingy.    The washer 
is also old, but it agitates.  It's the knees and other really ground 
in dirt and stains in my daughter's clothes that are not coming clean. 

Ideas?  

If you have green stains, you have acidic water.  The hard water may also
be causing you some problems.  If this is from a public water supply, I
think it's worth complaining.  Get your water tested by an independent lab
(such as Watertest in Manchester, NH) to know what you're faced with.

					Steve

Remember DON'T USE BLEACH to get hard water stains out of your clothes.  It
causes some metals to precipitate.  We had iron in our well water, and after my
wife bleached a load, the clothes had more stains that before she started.

In the dishwasher, have you tried adding JETDRY?  It worked for us.  There is
also an AMWAY product that removes the cloudy hardwater film  that develops on
glass in the dishwasher.

Try using some washing soda in place of some of your dishwasher detergent, say a
50/50 mixture.  The effect of washing soda is to soften the water.  You can
usually find it in the laundry section of the grocery store.

-Chris

I checked with the water district and the hardness levels are 3.18 
(grains) and 55 (parts per whatever).    I checked in note 952.last 
and those are considered "soft" numbers.  So the water is not hard.  

Before I left this morning I started a wash load with 50% more Tide 
than normal and will see if that does anything.   The soap did "suds 
up", another indication that the water is not too hard.   

The laundry stains are not mineral stains, I had iron stains in our 
last house and know what that is like.  This is dirt that is not 
coming out.   


This dishwasher is too old to have the jet dry dispenser.    


So with the water not too hard, and the stains not being iron, I guess 
the only obvious thing I know we have is copper, given the green 
sink/tub stains.  


Any other ideas of things I can try to narrow down possibilities?  

    
.4> This dishwasher is too old to have the jet dry dispenser.    
    
    Just FYI, Jet Dry also makes a solid form of the product that hangs in
    a little basket on a dishwasher rack. I prefer the liquid, but this
    might be an option for an older dishwasher.
    

>Before I left this morning I started a wash load with 50% more Tide 
>than normal and will see if that does anything.   The soap did "suds 
>up", another indication that the water is not too hard.   

Tide is detergent, not soap.  I don't think hardness affects the sudsing
of detergent.

    
    Excessive acid in the water will react with the copper pipes and 
    cause staining on clothes, dishes, tubs, etc.
    
    The only solution is to neutralize the acid.
    
    Jim
    

I had very acid water, always had the copper stains, and two joints blew ( in
walls !! ). I installed a neutralising tower (about $400 ) not a stain since.
Its great.

A word of warning, when I went to Sears they insisted on giving me a free water
test, the results came back an recommened a tower to treat condition (a) - I
cant remember what it was - based on the test and my report of the problems.

I had an earlier test done when I bought the house which showed the water 
was very acid, but also had calcium. I called the lab and asked if they though
it funny that there was little acid and zero calcium. Since the tower is
a tank full of calcium, I asked if they compensate for the time the sample sits
and they DO NOT. 

Get the water tested by someone locally who will test it quickly, and who
is not trying to sell you equipement

I too am having a dry dishwasher problem.

Symptom:  With door locker, it makes normal dishwasher-type noises, but
    remains dry.


I have done the following:

-   cleaned out the strainer ahead of the input valve  (nothing really
    there)

-   Checked the supply shutoff valve to make sure it is fully open  (and
    that, indeed, water flows through the supply line when the cutoff is
    open)

-   checked circuit continuity across the float switch (it's okay)

-   checked circuit continuity across the terminals of the supply valve
    solenoid (also okay)

-   reconnected one terminal of the supply valve solenoid and checked for
    continuity of that whole circuit when the dishwasher was on.
    (again okay)

-   Inserted a voltage detector into the input valve solenoid circuit while
    the dishwasher was on, but detected nothing.  Of course, the detector
    only registers 5V and up, so this may or may not be a problem (I don't
    know what the typical voltage across a solenoid is)



Any ideas?    Can the solenoid be bad but still continuous?  I took apart
the valve & rinsed it out when I checked the strainer, just in case, but I
didn't see anything.




-Andy

>Symptom:  With door locker, it makes normal dishwasher-type noises, but
>    remains dry.

-   checked circuit continuity across the float switch (it's okay)

	    Are you saying that the dishwasher does not fill with water
	but it sounds as if it's running?  I would assume that the dish-
	washer would not start to run until the float switch registers 
	a proper water level.  If this is true, then I would suspect the
	float switch always registers full.  But you said that it ohmed
	out good.  Double check it.
	    So maybe my assumtion is incorrect.  The float switch could
	just turn the water off (which would mean the unit could run w/o
	water, which is probably not good for the pump).

-   checked circuit continuity across the terminals of the supply valve
    solenoid (also okay)

	    Conduction doesn't necessarily indicate good.  The valve may
	be shorted; that could explain why you didn't measure a voltage.  
	Disconnect the solenoid and then try to measure voltage.  Good
	luck.
					Tim

    Another thing you could do is to fill the machine by hand and see
    what happens -- does it wash properly, and then drain afterwards?
    If so, you can feel confident that the problem is that it isn't
    filling, either because of a float switch problem or because the
    intake is clogged.
    
    My washing machine no longer fills and no loger drains, either.
    I suspect a problem with the selector dial.  However, we've been
    wanting to replace it for so long that we're not seriously planning
    to try to repair it.
    
    	Regards,
    	Larry

>	    Are you saying that the dishwasher does not fill with water
>	but it sounds as if it's running?  I would assume that the dish-
>	washer would not start to run until the float switch registers 
>	a proper water level.  If this is true, then I would suspect the
>	float switch always registers full.  But you said that it ohmed
>	out good.  Double check it.

Yes, it does not fill with water, but sounds like it's running.  (Of 
course, I don't let it run this way for more than a few seconds)

I'll double check the float switch, but I'm pretty sure it's not open.


>	    Conduction doesn't necessarily indicate good.  The valve may
>	be shorted; that could explain why you didn't measure a voltage.  
>	Disconnect the solenoid and then try to measure voltage.  Good
>	luck.

Okay, so the solenoid could be shorted, which would explain why I got
conduction.


But I checked for voltage with the solenoid in the circuit, i.e.
red wire -> solenoid terminal -> (shorted) solenoid -> 
  other solenoid terminal -> probe -> voltage detector -> probe ->
  white wire

If the solenoid is shorted (which is my best guess), then I'd expect
it to suck up very little voltage.  I dunno -- maybe they only take a
couple of volts to begin with and my cheap little tester needs more
than that before it registers.


What's a new solenoid and/or a valve cost, anyway?  Is there a standard 
or do they vary by brand?



-Andy

>I'll double check the float switch, but I'm pretty sure it's not open.

	     Maybe it would help if you buy or borrow a meter.  Actuate
	the float switch to make sure it measures `both' infinity (open)
	and ~0 ohms (closed).  If it's always measuring 0 ohms, it is 
	bad.

>If the solenoid is shorted (which is my best guess), then I'd expect
>it to suck up very little voltage.  I dunno -- maybe they only take a

	    If the solenoid is shorted, there would be no voltage drop
	across it = ~0 volts measured.  

					Tim

	Well, I replaced the solenoid & all is now well.  Thanks
	for the info & suggestions.



	-Andy

    I have a dishwasher. I would like to add a disposal to the sink. Can I
    use the same electrical feed for both? One reply here indicated that
    there was an outlet under the sink where both the dishwasher and
    disposer plugged in. Is this ok according to code?  Any other
    requirements for a disposal instalation? The disposal will be wall
    switch operated.
    
    Thanks
    (the other)
    Steve

    Actually, "code" doesn't say anything about this.  Nashua's
    electrical inspector said it was fine.
    
    				Steve

    Steve, That's not exactly true. Read articles 210-22 and 430. This
    installation most likely will meet code requirements and work fine, but
    the code most certainly covers this area. Don't put the disposal on the 
    kitchen lighting circuit. I made this mistake once in Nashua, was code 
    legal, passed by the inspector, but caused the lights to dim every time 
    I started the disposal.
    
    
    Ross

    Hmm - you must have a different editon of the NEC than I do.  In
    my 1990 copy, those articles aren't at all relevant.  All I can see
    is a requirement that the "small appliance branch circuits" serve
    only the countertop outlets and nothing else except a clock.
    
    				Steve

    Are you sure that you have an outlet under the sink? When wiring a
    dishwasher, you usually have an option to wire it directly, or wiring
    it to a plug which then would allow you to use an outlet. Just because
    one person has an outlet under the sink doesn't mean that it is
    standard...
    
    

    Yes, I have the current 1993 NEC. You probably ought to throw out the
    1990 edition as it's no longer a valid reference.
    
    210-22 (a) talks to Motor-Operated and Combination branch circuit
    loads. (Appliances fastened in place, such as diswashers and garbage
    disposals). Article 430 talks to Motor circuits.
    
    
    Ross

    re:-.13  No I currently do not have an outlet under the sink, but the
    dishwasher feed is close by. My thoughts were to take the dishwasher
    feed and bring it into an outlet, then plug the dishwasher and disposal
    into the outlet. An alternative would be to skip the outlet altogether.
    
    How many amps would a dishwasher and disposal draw?  

The dishwasher by itself probably draws upwards of 10-12 amps max.  The
disposer, maybe 2-3.  They typically wouldn't be running at the same time,
though.

				Steve

    
    
    My mom has a portable Maytag dishwasher that I'd like to get 
    built-in.  The model says 'convertible' as opposed to 'build-in',
    so I assume it can be made to be built in, but I don't see how.
    The power cord and rubber hose come out the back near the top.
    Do you normally pull them around to the side to hook up to the
    electrical outlet and drain?  Also, this unit is about 2 inches
    longer (front to back) than the countertop, and that is if you
    pushed the unit all the way back to the wall.  Doesn't seem
    convertible to me.... Anyone ever get one of these installed?

The installation manual usually details the procedure.  A separate
installation kit is often required.

				Steve

    
    RE: .25
    
      A few years back I installed a Kenmore dishwasher under the counter
    (which was a roll around portable unit as you describe). The Sears
    Conversion Kit included a few items.
    
        1) Feet to replace wheels
        2) Electrical Box to replace Power Cord
        3) New Water Inlet Valve.
    
    If I remember correctly, this kit was about $30.  I ran into a few
    problems but that's par for the course...
    
    The first step was removing the Butcher Block formica Top and cutting off
    the hose adapter that would normally clamp onto the kitchen faucet. I 
    plumbed the new inlet valve using copper, but used the existing rubber drain
    hose (which I tapped into my Garbage Disposal). I was replacing an older
    dishwasher so the electrical hook-up was already there waiting to be
    connected. My Kenmore unit stayed in its metal box. With my newly installed
    ceramic tile floor, the box was too tall to fit under the countertop. I 
    cut 1/4" off the top of the stem on the new feet and slid it in...The box
    is also a tad deeper that the base cabinets, but 2" sounds like a
    bit much. What is the depth of the dishwasher and/or the cabinets? If
    the house is older, it could possibly have non-standard sized cabinets. I
    wonder if you keep the Maytag unit in the metal box or remove it. A call
    to your local lonely Maytag Repair man would appear to be your best bet. 
    
    Good Luck,
    Charlie
    

    
    
    Thanks for the info!  Mom doesn't have an installation guide, just
    an owners manual, so I didn't see any information on the conversion.
    I'll call Maytag.  Anyway, the depth of the countertop is 25".  Thus
    the dishwasher is 27" (that's just the metal casing; the door and
    controls are further out than that).  Maybe if I'm supposed to remove
    the metal box then there will be some slack.
    

    I had a kenmore that I converted without the kit and it worked fine 
    until it died from other causes besides the conversion. I just took
    off the butcher block top and wheels and then leveled the floor 
    beneath it and shoved it in. The rest of the connections I made 
    with standard parts from the hardware store.
    
    Saul

    
    
    
    So has anyone actually removed the outer metal casing in order
    to make it fit in as a built-in?

    
    I couldn't remove my Kenmore from the box for several reasons...Like 
    the feet and several other components (valves, etc.) were mounted to the
    frame of the box. I guess they're either designed to be taken out or
    they have to stay in...Call that lonely Maytag repair man... :^)
    
    /Charlie

    
    I am looking into buying a dishwasher (built-in). What is your
    favorite dishwasher and why? Also how much did it cost?
    
    Thanks

    36  FARMER::HOVEY         3-OCT-1984    61  dishwashers ???
   898  CADSYS::BURDICK       6-OCT-1987    25  Quiet dishwashers?
  1249  IAMOK::BELL           2-SEP-1988    22  Would you buy SEARS Dishwasher?

    
    36 FARMER::HOVEY	- ah...the good ole days, young and hairy and
    thinkin of dishwashers!

    Just incase someone buys a Bosch (or Kitchenaid IC) dishwasher (or
    possibly any other 'european' dishwasher), here's what you need to know
    about how they hook up:
    
    They plug in to a standard outlet. Unfortunately, the dishwasher you're
    replacing (if that's what you're doing) probably didn't. In my case,
    the NM cable came up through the floor just about dead center in the
    opening.. Grr.. Anyway, the outlet is NOT supposed to be in the
    dishwasher opening, it's supposed to be in the adjoining cabinet
    (though in a standard US cabinet installation there would probably be
    enough room behind the dishwasher; just no way to make sure the cord
    isn't pinched)
    
    The water feed is a standard hose thread (like a washing machine).
    Unfortunately, the dishwasher you're replacing probably used
    compression fittings. Of course, in my case, the shutoff that shuts off
    the hot water to the stop under the sink was frozen solid, so I had to
    shut off the whole house.. Grr... 
    
    But, now that it's done, I have to say I think it's a better way
    to wire/plumb a dishwasher than the US standard. Given that dishwahsers
    don't get moved that often, it probably doesn't matter much..
    
    ...tom

    I've been through all the notes here and have some clues what to 
    check but thought I'd describe my problem less someone recognize
    more precisely what might be the cause.
    
    It's about a 10 year old Kenmore Dishwasher installed new under the
    counter.  
    
    The problem is that it has been running intermitantly for a short 
    while and has finally stopped.  It is filling with water when you 
    put the dial at the beginning of the wash cycle but it is not doing
    anything else.  I can hear the slow motor type noize of the timer and
    it is turning slowly as I would expect it should.  When this happened
    before I pushed a few buttons and turned the timer dial a couple of
    times and it straightened out for a couple of weeks.  It's getting
    juice since the on light is lit and the timer turns but no pumping or
    washing action.  It's not flooding over so I don't think it is a stuck
    float switch as mentioned in several notes.
    
    Tonight I'll probably empty out the water and see if maybe something
    is jamming the impeller but this shouldn't cause an intermittant 
    problem?  
    
    Any other clues?
    
    
    Dick  

    I've seen a similar problem with washing machines, the mechanicals in
    the timer are shot.  There are a number of relay like contacts inside
    that over the years have become pitted and/or corroded thus preventing
    power to the main motor.  Usually with the help of the circuit diagram,
    and a vom, you can verify whether the contacts are low resistance or
    not.  The fact that in the past you were able to get it to work by
    playing with the timer suggests that it may in fact be the problem.
    
    Ken

    Looked at the works last night and the timer looked ok with the
    exception of the contact specifically for the motor (the contact that
    seems to get the most action).  It was a bit pitted etc so I attempted
    to clean it up with a points file and contact cleaner.
    
    Once done and I turned on the juice, there was a noticible attempt from
    the motor to spin but it only smoked.  Cause of problem identified as
    shorting windings to the motor frame.  You could see a faint spark in
    the windings as the timer engaged the motor.  It was a little damp just
    under the motor so I suspect the base seal began to leak leading to the
    motors demise.
    
    I'll check to see what a motor and seal cost and decide what to do from
    there.
    
    Is 10 years the life expectancy on these things?  Our clothes washer is
    also apart right now waiting for gaskets and seals.  Talk about a 
    set back.  We may have to resort to paper plates and beating the
    clothes on the rocks in the river.  
    
    
    Dick

    re .-1
    
    In last months issue of Good Housekeeping or similar magazine thay had
    a listing of the average life of appliances. Diswashers were 9 years.
    
    Since new ones are $250 to $600, are sufficiently quiet to sit in the 
    same room and talk to people, are significantly more energy efficient, 
    and the timer plus labor will cost you > $150 and the machine is over 
    the expected life. you choose!!!
    
    Been there - done it.
    
    David

   > Since new ones are $250 to $600, are sufficiently quiet to sit in the 
   > same room and talk to people, are significantly more energy efficient, 
    
    Hm. My new one is very quiet, but it never talks to people..
    
    ...tom

    Re -2
    
    I think it will be replaced.  The motor/pump assy is $135 and $25 more
    for the top arm assembly that previously got melted.  Ad to this the
    shipping charges and were on our way to the price of a new unit.  Who's
    to say what part will be next.  Also, I'd much rather install a new one 
    than deal with this task.  
    
    The only think I fear is that this small job might innitiate the long
    anticipated discussion of "time to remodel the kitchen".  The better
    half has already eyed some tile and countertop.
    
    OH NO!!!!
             

    Only $5000?  Our dishwasher dying (and subsequent refrigerator dying)
    triggered a $30K kitchen "gut job".  I love the results, but OUCH!
    
    				Steve

    
    Hmm, thank guys for giving me tips - dishwasher going = time
    to remodel kitchen! Ours is on the way out. However, since I 
    will have to work longer hours to pay for it, I don't think 
    I'll push for The Works. (Can't seem to kill the 15 year old 
    fridge either...)
    
    Does anyone have any good recommendations for a washer - my 
    priorities are clean dishes, quietness, well made? Don't care 
    too much about saving water and electricity and all those fancy
    cycles (never tried the china and crystal cycle in 9 years)in 
    my situation, cost is not a big issue. 
    
     
    Thanks,
    Eva 

    My wife and MIL are heading to Sears again.  Any reasons they should
    reconsider their source for a new dishwasher?  As -1 pointed out 
    clean dishes, quiet and well built are priorities, but price is
    a consideration also.  I've already made the point to my better half
    that we've only used 2 buttons and the dial in ten years so options
    are not a necessity.  Who's manufacturing their DW's these days?
    
    Dick

My recollection is that most Sears dishwashers are made by a company you
wouldn't have heard of - they don't sell under their own name.

One thing to be aware of is that the manufacturers make you pay for
features if you want a "quiet" model.

We have a KitchenAid that seems to work well.

				Steve

    
    
    >One thing to be aware of is that the manufacturers make you pay for
    >features if you want a "quiet" model.
    
    I wonder if anyone tried any European products or industrial strength
    products. I have seen European applicances that are built like tanks,
    work like a charm, but they are not gimmicky (may have only an ON/OFF
    swtich). Any experience?
    
    
    Eva 
                                           

> My recollection is that most Sears dishwashers are made by a company you
> wouldn't have heard of - they don't sell under their own name.

	You've never heard of "Whirlpool" or "GE"??  That's what most
	of them are.  Same guts, just a different label.

	Digital does the same thing ....

No, not Whirlpool or GE, though I know those companies make lots of
appliances for Sears.  This was some years ago, so maybe Sears has switched
suppliers, but it was a company that built for other companies only.

Re: European models

These can be very quiet, very good and VERY expensive - twice or more what
a typical "American" brand would run.  Miele is the one I hear about most.

				Steve

    Sears tells me that the majority of their line of DWs are made by
    Whirlpool, the exception being the absolute cheapest $270 and he didn't
    know the manufacturor.  Salesman said "And you don't want to even look
    at these".  There's a unit on sale now till the 11th (yea I know,
    there's a sale every other month), that has the basic features
    comparable to what we've had and not used but looks improved since 10
    years ago going for $399.  Salesman's claim "best buy" in Consumers
    Report.  Has the extra quiet feature as opposed to the quiet feature.
    
    Now that I think of it.  The old one dying might be a blessing seeing
    that it really made a racket. Our house is open concept with cathedral
    ceiling and the noise saturated the house regardless of when you ran
    it.
    
    I sorta liked the chrome effect trim on our older unit more.  These all
    1 color units are a bit bland. 
    
    
    
    Dick

> Sears tells me that the majority of their line of DWs are made by Whirlpool...

	Yup.  In fact you can even compare some of them directly against
	the brand name while you are in the store as Sears also carries
	the brand name labels.

	You can tell the Whirlpool's because their 3-level wash is implemented
	with a bottom metalic spinner, with a plastic cone type thing mounted
	on the bottom rack, a spinner thing mounted on the bottom of the top
	track, and on the ceiling of the units is a concave defelector.

	The GE's 3-level wash is implemented by a bottom spinner, a collapsed
	cone thing in the middle on the bottom which rises into a cone in
	operation, and on the ceiling is of the units is a small spinner
	which I assume is fed by the pump via a line running inside the wall
	of the unit.

	The higher end Kenmore (Sears) Ultra Wash models are Whirlpools,
	while I believe the lowest end one is a GE.

	Major features as you go up is a soft or hard food disposer,
	water heat option (which uses the drying coil to heat the water
	to the optimal temperature if you keep your domestic hot water at
	a lower temperature), delay start (so you can run it after you've
	fallen asleep at night), and the extra sound insulation (which
	can vary from thicker or more efficient exterior insulation, to
	insulation inside all the walls/ceiling of the unit itself [from
	what I'm told, I've never seen a cut-a-way]).  I don't believe any
	of the Kenmores offer stainless steel tub.  Also when I bought
	another Kenmore last month (for a rental unit, my 2-year Ultra
	Wash II is still working great) the saleperson tried to sell me
	on a unit with some new motor that is supposed to be quieter and
	more vibration free (maybe that's in the Ultra Wash III?).

	Also be careful, at least one of the salesperson at the Nashua
	store gave me mis-information about one of the units having the
	soft-food disposer feature, but when I had him pull out his nice
	little pocket guide, the features list had no mention of such a
	feature on that unit.  I was trying to figure out the difference
	between two very similiar models because they differed in price
	by $50 or so.  The only thing the more expensive model gave was
	delay start, and more choices of "cycles".  Both of which I've
	found in personal use with my Ultra Wash II is that I usually only
	use one choice of cycle, and have rarely used the delay start.

	And a final hint in closing.  The instructions gave a very good
	hint at how to use the dishwasher.  Right before you start it,
	run the hot water at the sink til the cold/cooled water sitting
	in the pipe between the sink and your domestic hot water source
	is flushed (ie. until the tap water runs hot).  This is even more
	important today with dishwashers that use less water.  This is
	also one reason why I rarely use delay start.  And I always use
	the water heat option, because in subsequent parts of the cycle
	when the dishwasher drains and then refills, the hot water in
	the pipe has had time to cool.

    Re -1
    
    Yep, this is what I basically learned at lunch today at the Salem 
    store.  The unit on sale Ultrawash #16765 is usually $509 and has
    the extra insulation, water heat and plenty of functions.  I believe
    it also had the vibration dampener motor which looks like just a
    brass slug and arm hanging off the side of the motor 3-4 inches 
    away.  I think it works on a moment/arm principle or some such.
    
    I was a little leary of the telepscoping spray mechanism in some
    of the other brands and the salesman seemed to be against them as 
    well from a rinse delivery standpoint.  It looked to me to be a less
    effective and more costly to repair method than the revolving sprayer.
    A point that the salesman made against it is that if anything gets in 
    the way of the mechanism it just won't work.  On the standard unit
    you can't put anything where the cone is so it's not a problem.
    
    So how do they do it?  Sell a $509 unit for $399 and make good money
    doing it.  They must have a good margin since the salesman all but 
    badmouthed everything else.  I just asked for a reasonably priced 
    middle of the road machine.  Must be the volume.........
    
    Dick
                                         

    Eva
    
    Call mass buying and get the name of the discount house in your area
    that sells diswasher they give them to you at a pretty good buy.
    
    My neighbor owns his own plumbing company and he and I talked a long
    time when our kitchade of 25+ years finally died. He actually walked me
    through a bunch of different models and showed me quality differences. 
    In the end his recommendation was to buy another kitchenaide.  He said
    those things are like tanks and won't die for another 25 years.  We
    bought the no frills model. The thing has none of those fancy buttons
    in fact has a rotary switch on the front, but I can attest to the fact
    taht it is built to last.  If you can afford one, I recommend them.
    
    Brian

Make sure you get one that has more than just a 1-level wash (i.e., more than
just the bottom spray arm).

You can check out the maytags at http://www.maytag.com/

I was happy with our Whirlpool, except that I had to pre-wash dishes in which
I had cooked bread, eggs, or broccoli (sp).

								-- Chuck Newman

> Make sure you get one that has more than just a 1-level wash (i.e., more than
> just the bottom spray arm).

	I've never heard of a "1-level" wash.  Even the bargin basement
	entry level is advertised as a 2-level wash ...

> I was happy with our Whirlpool, except that I had to pre-wash dishes in which
> I had cooked bread, eggs, or broccoli (sp).

	It would be more useful if you indicated what model of Whirlpool
	(and how old), than just say Whirlpool.  Otherwise it's a useless
	statement, like saying I'm happy with my wood-framed house except ...

	For example, with my Whirlpool dishwasher I don't need any pre-washing,
	and my dishes often sit in the dishwasher for a week before I have
	enough dishes for a load so the food also has plenty of time to dry.
	They always come out clean (2-year old Kenmore Ultra Wash II [ala
	Whirlpool])

    I did end up buying the Sears Ultrawash mod # 16765 and all worked out
    well.  Being simular to the 10 year old unit coming out the layout for
    hook-ups were the same.  The only problem I had was with the floor 
    having been built up since the original unit was installed.  Only had
    to pull off the carpeting tack strip to slip the new one in.  This unit
    is MUCH quieter than the other.  I think that besides the extra sound 
    insulation the use of a plastic enclosure versus steel/porcelin must be
    a big factor.  Before putting on the bottom panel while checking for
    leaks etc. I noticed the "anti-vibration dampener" in action.  It was
    really buzzing along so maybe it helps.  Also liked the plastic 
    corrugated type drain hose.  I was going to reuse the old rubber one
    and save one hook-up to the disposal unit but noticed it had flattened
    some.  The new one is more rigid in its cross section and can't
    colapse.
    
    The clothes washer went back together this weekend too.  Maybe get
    another year or two out of that hopefully.
    
    It's surprising just how disorganizing having a couple of machines 
    down for a week can be.  I guess we just take these things for granted.
    
    
    
    
    Dick
    

    >        I've never heard of a "1-level" wash.  Even the bargin basement
    >        entry level is advertised as a 2-level wash ...
    
    We bought a new house about 3 years ago and the dishwasher that came
    with it has only one spray arm.  We have to be carefule what we put
    into the dishwasher or the glasses come out covered in crumbs.
    
    							John

We recently replaces a vintage 1961 Kitchenaid withh a new Bosch, stainess steel interior
very quiet dishwasher.

You hear a low hum when it's running. It holds a complete service for 12. And it cleans
pots and pans so thoroughly that they don't need a second scrubbing before
they get put away.

I found the price competitive with top of the line Kitchenaid, which didn't have
a stainless steel interior.

My husband wouldn't sit in the kitchen while the dishwasher was on. HE found it quite
annoying.  Now, he marvels at the ability to hold a conversation while the new dishwasher
is on.

So he's happy. And I don't have todo the dishes twice, so I'm happy.

    
    re .368
    
    Where did you get yours? I haven't seen one before.
    
    
    Eva

    I'm pretty sure Yale Electric sells them (they have a web page)
    
    I have a KitchenAid "IC" series (which is essentially the
    top-of-the-line bosch) that I bought a month or so ago (kitchenaid
    discontinued the line, and it was the last one at the local distributor
    that usually gets my appliance money).. I have to agree; they are
    incredibly quiet. the stainless interior and the removable filter are
    nice, too; but I haven't quite gotten used to the racks yet.. they
    clearly do very well when all we need to load is dinner service, but
    when we have measuring cups, coffee cups, tupperware, mixing bowls, etc
    it takes more thought than the old whirlpool that we had..
    
    does an excellent job at cleaning, though, with very little water. No
    exposed heating elements, so you never melt your plastic stuff.. 
    
    Like most German cleaning appliances, it holds the contents hostage for
    a LONG time.. but it's quiet enough that you don't have to evacuate the
    kitchen.. (actually, you can have a quiet conversation in the kitchen
    while it's running..)
    
    ...tom

    
    Wow, it sounds like the dishwasher from heaven. No exposed heating
    element? I have to peel plastic utensils and water bottle straws
    from the element. Not having to schedule the wash for "when we are
    not home and pray that the washer does not leak" is great. Thanks
    for the info.
    
    
    Eva

We bought the Bosch dishwasher at Baron's in Salem N.H.  around 3 months ago.
And it was on sale.


Mikki
226-2012

 My MIL has a very new Kitchenaid superba dishwasher (just purchased last
summer). When it was first installed, we marvelled at how quiet it was. EXCEPT
during the drain cycle it makes a really loud vibration noise. My first thought
was that possibly the drain pump was coming loose or something. 

The repair person from the appliance store has been back three times and can't
seem to get a handle on why the noise is happening. At first he said the drain
hose was vibrating and making the sound. The sound returned the night after he
left. My MIL called Kitchenaid to complain but they wouldn't second guess their
service person. The response she has recieved so far has basically been "it's
supposed to do that". Well, we just had the exact same model installed in our
new house (my MIL couldn't wait to run it and listen to it!), and so far it
doesn't do it. She's getting the repair guy to come back again to see if it can
be fixed. 

Anybody have any ideas about this one? Maybe some DIYer suggestions for this
professional repair man? 

Steve B.

    re: noisy during draining
    
    If the drain hose is one of those corrugated plastic ones, it's very
    likely the hose leaning up against a cabinet or something on its
    way to the drain.  those plastic hoses take the vibration of the pump
    and water and echo it thru anything the hose touches.  I had the
    same thing on our whirlpool and found that sticking a piece of
    insulation between the drain hose and cabinet did the trick.  Other
    solution is to replace the plastic hose with a rubber one.
    
    andy
    

    I tracked a vibration down to the copper water pipe that was very, very
    close to the wall.  During certain cycles, there was enough extra
    vibration to cause the pipe to tap the wall.
    
    I bent it out slighty and added a piece of insulation behind it.
    
    Chris

    
    Last month my five-year-old Kenmore (GE) dishwasher got *extremely*
    noisy (sounded like it was grinding up our glassware) and then died.
    When I pulled it out, I found that the motor had self-destructed.
    
    The motor and pump are field-replaced as a unit. The motor is mounted
    to the pump with three screws. One of the screws had backed out. It
    evidently lodged between the fan (an integral part of the motor) and
    the motor frame. What I found was the fan broken away from the motor
    and wobbling around the shaft (the horrendous noise), the motor burnt out,
    and the somewhat mangled screw lying on the floor under the dishwasher.
    
    The motor/pump assembly lists at around $150. Sears wanted another
    $150 to install it. The dishwasher originally cost $329.
    
    It took a month and a lot of silly phone conversations (thank heavens
    for their 800 number) but I finally convinced a service manager in
    Northboro MA to sell me a motor/pump assembly for $50, 1/3 of list,
    based on my argument that this was obviously a manuafacturing defect
    and the dishwasher had lasted only 1/3 of it's expected lifetime.
    This, of course, was only after I requested the names and mailing
    addresses of Sears' CEO, Board chair and VP of customer relations.
    
    The assembly arrived two days ago; yeterday the dishwasher was back up
    and running, quietly.