Conference 7.286::home_work

The note on jointing compound inspired this note.  Has anyone ever tried 
to do their own skim coating (you know, thin plaster over blueboard)?  I 
know on "this old house" they implied it wasn't hard, but I'm real 
skeptical.

The reason I ask is that if it's no worse that jointing, I'd recommend 
that everyone go this route rather than sheetrock for several reasons:

	o	looks better
	o	no seams to show
	o	very hard, making wallpaper removal a breeze
	o	don't have to worry about dealing with individual seams

I do know people who have done this but finished it rough (sort of like 
a ceiling, but not quite) and thought is was the easiest thing they
every did.

As I said before, I'm not convinced anyone off the street can do it 
themselves and get it right, but then again, maybe you can!

-mark

    	I would not recommend that the uninitiated undertake skim-coating!
    The "touch" required with the trowel is much different than that
    of taping, (the trowel must be a "plaster" trowel which is convex
    instead of concave).  The mixture is much more "soupy" than joint
    compound and harder to apply.  Plaster is totally "unforgiving"!
    Once it's on the wall, you have maybe 10 minutes to trowel it smooth
    and after that it's too hard even to chip off, much less sand!
    
    	Even doing the "Crazy Trowel" or "Sponge/Stucco" patterns is
    not all that easy...  (They don't get $24/hr because *anybody* can
    do it!)  Plaster in your eye (from doing a ceiling) can cause you
    permanent eye damage!  
    
    	Still wanna try it?  Do a half-bag at a time, and practice in
    on a garage wall!  Rent a good mixing drill and agitator.  (Mixing
    by hand is useless... you'll never get the lumps out!)  I had in
    my employ a 20-year vetran of the trade. (I was a contractor before
    becoming a Deccie!)  After watching him do it for a coupla years,
    I *still* had a tough time with it, and I'm not all that thick!
    
    						Don Arey
    		    

    
    		Plastering/skimcoating is more of an art than a skill,
    but there is plenty of skill involved too.  If you don't have the 
    knack and feel for it you'll never be happy with the finished 
    product.  It also helps to be very fussy and very quick.  It's not
    something I would recommend to try someplace very visible.
    
    		I do the plastering in my house because I'm better at
    it than my husband who tends to be a little too heavy-handed with
    it.  I guess ignorance was in my favor when I started...had I known
    how difficult it can be I probably wouldn't have taken the chance
    the first time!  I figured that the walls couldn't look any worse
    when I finished (we were skimming over old horsehair plaster that
    was pretty lumpy) so off I went and did the walls and ceiling in
    the master bedroom.  I shudder to think what the results could have
    been.
    		One thing I've discovered that helps me alot is
    photographer's lights.  I put one high and one low shining up the
    wall (at angles, not directly towards it) which really helps to
    see if things are clean and smooth.
    
    		Hmmmm, $24 an hour, maybe I'll change careers!   ;-)
    
    		Conni

We just had a large hole fixed in our plaster walls.  According to this
pasterer there is a Durabond 45 and a Durabond 90 (indicating the number
of minutes before the stuff sets).  He uses that stuff up to about 1/8
or so below surface and then skims with the softer stuff (joint
compound).   

His view: he does both and actually prefers wallboard because: 1) it is
easier to fix, 2) it does not crack (if done well), and 3) it is easier
to hang things like pictures.  Yes, plaster is much harder and less
likely to tear apart with the backs of chairs, etc. 

I prefer paster.  But I found his views to be intersting.

Alex

(DIY disclaimer: hole was paid for by plumber's insurance, otherwise I 
would have liked to have tried repairing plaster myself.)

I want to put up some blueboard and hire someone to skim coat it.  
Anybody have any experience in working this way?  How do they charge, by 
the sq foot or does it depend on the complexity (high ceilings, etc).

Any rough numbers on costs?

-mark

Data point one:  when the plasterer was working on our addition, our neighbors
called him over to give an estimate for their ceiling.  (An idea already seen
in this NOTES file.)  They wanted to install the blueboard themselves, just
have him skim the dining and living room ceilings.  Total area ~= 300 square
feet at a height of 8 feet.  Price quoted: $500.  Afterwards, we thought that
the plasterer may have jacked up the price just to cover himself in case the
owners didn't remove all the furniture, mask the rugs, propoerly install the
blueboard, etc. 

Data point two:  when the sink counter needed to be lowered 1.5 inches in our
kitchen, I was warned that the plasterer has a minimum charge of $300, even
just to patch that little area.  Luckily, spackle covered that patch!

No data point:  I don't know how much the pasterer costs; he was a sub hired 
and paid by the general contractor.

According to the guy who skim coated the ceiling on the cape they just 
completed on "This Old House", the going rate is $15.00 per board of
4 X 8 blueboard. How does that figure on the size of the room for $500.00..?


						Robert

    After getting a quote on some skim coating, I asked why so high.
    The plasterer's answer caught me off guard!  "Because I can do it
    and you can't!"  He said that I was paying $50 for the materials
    and the rest (hundreds) for his skill in applying the material.
    That's why I try to do things myself.
    
    C

any idea of how he charged?  was it based on hours, sq feet or a 
combination?

-mark

      $500!! Ouch! I just had my living room ceiling fixed. Its a
    12 by 21 room that had a 20' crack and an old swirl pattern to
    it. My brother-in-law (the contracter) recommended this guy from
    Gardner. He came in, taped the crack, taped two cracks in the
    wall, skim coated the ceiling, put on a layer of BIN (this thing
    was dirty!!), then textured the ceiling for $160. Nice job, too.
    
      I went to the textured for something different, for a slightly
    higher price I could have had another skim coat to make it smooth
    over the old swirl pattern.
    
      Guys name is Randy Vaillencourt, I can furnish his phone number
    if needed.
    
                                             Dana
    

    Just to give you an idea on a large job, I installed 70 sheets of
    4x8 5/8 blueboard on walls and 8' ceilings. This was 4 rooms and
    a half bath. The ceilings were finished smooth. The plaster taped
    and installed all corner beads. It took him and a helper 3 and 1/2
    days at a cost of 2,200.00.
    
    If you install the blueboard yourself use a screw gun to install
    the strapping and blueboard. If it is a remodeling job, re-screw
    the old strapping.                       

Are you saying YOU installed the blueboard and only had the plasterer do 
the skim coat for 2200?  Thats a LOT more than the $15 a sheet quoted 
earlier.

re:.-2

could you send me a phone numer?

-mark

    My choice would be to take down the old plaster, insulate with
    fiberglass, install a vapor barrier, and then put up the 
    blueboard/plaster.  I am not and never have been a fan of 
    blown-in insulation.
    But if you do go the cover-it-up route, I think your idea of the
    vapor barrier under the blueboard is a good one.
    

    Thanks for the information.  Yes, I agree with you about taking
    down the old plaster and insulating.  But we just can't eat anymore
    plaster dust!
    

    Yeah, I know - I just got done with the walls in the dining room....

	My wife was visiting a friend tonight who's husband said something
	that has alarmed us.  Seems they were talking about tearing
	down plaster walls and all the mess involved.  He said to be 
	careful about the dust because some plaster contains asbestos.
	This is the first time I've ever heard of that, so I'm wondering
	if anyone else has run across this.

	As far as I can tell the plaster we're taking out has horse hair
	in it, but I guess you never know.  Any way before I go much
	further I'd like to know a little more.  If anyone knows what
	to look for please let me know.

	Thanks
	John

    I've gutted out about three rooms that had horse hair plaster. 
    My only suggestion is to wear a VERY good mask.  Certainly the paper
    masks that some people use for spray painting, etc. are not good
    enough.
    
    					Steve

    I am also contemplating some wall_work, and asbestos or not, tearing
    down plaster can be a nightmare. I'm thinking the best thing to do
    might be to hang the drywall right over the existing plaster, and
    shim out the woodwork, since I'll be taking it off anyway to strip
    it. Its this feasable? It does fit in with most experts' advice
    on asbestos: "Leave it alone!"

    As far as I know, plaster does not contain asbestos.  Especially
    hair plaster.  They only function the asbestos might serve would
    be to bind the plaster together, and that's what the hair is in
    there for.  I have never heard of plaster containing asbestos.
   
    I second the motion for a good dust mask.  And a big fan in the
    window.  And a painter's cap to keep it out of your hair.  I'm
    of the "tear it out" school.  I think you can do a better job with
    the new walls that way, and it also gives you a chance to see what 
    the insides of the walls are like.  "Out of sight, out of mind"
    is okay up to a point, but you really are better off knowing about
    the rotted studs or bad sill before the house collapses.  It also
    simplifies rewiring, if you're planning to do any.
    

      For asbestos related questions/information, you can call the
    asbestos Hotline at Tufts University. Ask for Rhiana @ 617-381-3531.
    They are very informative, and usually send out articles on particular
    info. From what I've heard, horse-hair & plaster does not contain
    asbestos..... at Least I hope not! I gutted my entire house 3 yrs.
    ago with the exception of one bedroom, which my wife has been
    nagging me to tear out!

    I'll risk some hot replies here.

    What's wrong with a little asbestos?  Now, I haven't read much at all on
    the subject.  My only recollection is that asbestos miners (Vermont?)
    were found to have a whole lot more cancer that they should have.
    These guys were spending 40 hours a week inhaling and absorbing the stuff.
    But surely, one room's worth of doubtfully-asbestosed plaster wouldn't
    be life threatening, would it?
    Take precautions when tearing down and inhaling anything, but don't bother
    updating your life insurance policy.

re: .6

    Bad attitude.  VERY bad.  A little exposure here and there adds up.  Also,
the body has no way to exped the asbestos, and it is a potent carcingen.  
Please, if you're working with hazardous materials take the appropriate 
precautions.  It may not be comfortable to wear a respirator, but I gather 
that lung cancer is no picnic either.

			Andy Ostrom
			EMT-A Mass.

    At the risk of being scolded by .6 :-)...
    
    I had heard that men who worked daily with asbestos had a high
    incidence of lung cancer.  BUT -- there was a *very* substantial
    correlation between cancer cases and smokers:  it seemed that
    almost all of the cancer cases also happened to be smokers.  The
    medical speculation was that the tobacco smoke paralyzes the cilia
    which are supposed to sweep dust and other particulates out of the
    lungs and bronchioles (this much has been proven), which allowed
    the asbestos particles to lodge in the lungs and stay there to do
    their dirty work.
    
    Point is, that it's something to avoid;  but if you've the misfortune
    of being a smoker, you'd better take your precautions religiously.
    
    Dick
    P.S. I understand that some people vent their clothes driers inside
    the house, to keep in all that good hot air.  (I did it briefly,
    until I could get the right length of hose.)  But some people think
    that this is bad, because the internal lint filter gets only the
    larger particles, and scatters the finer ones inside your house
    for you to breathe!  (I'll vouch for the lint being scattered about;
    I refuse to run it without an outdoor vent.)
    
    There is some disagreement as to how bad these particles are for
    your lungs, but some people seem to think that they're fairly bad
    for you.  Anybody have knowledge or opinions?
    
    

    We have recently gutted a room in our 87 years+ old house.  Before
    we did this we stumbled upon the fact that there were several asbestos
    covered pipes (?) in the cellar.  After contacting the EPA and several
    other government agencies, they asked us if we were planning on
    tearing out ANY walls in the house.  
    
    Their research shows that asbestos AND horse hair was used in many 
    cases in the plaster.  (maybe just in Ohio - who knows)  
    
    Several of their recommendations:
    
    - do not allow children or adults with any type of lung disorder
      around when you tear out plaster.  
    
    - wear some type of filtering masks 
    
    - put a good fan in the window to PULL the air out of the room.
    
    - close all door openings to the rest of the house with a damp material
      (we used old sheets dampened with H20) to catch the FINE plaster dust 
      or whatever it is.
     
    They did say that the amount that would most likely be found in the 
    plaster would not exceed the "recommended daily allowance" that the 
    government suggests for a normal healthy adult.  So, if you are
    "normal AND healthy"?
    
    My question is how long does it take for the rest of the plaster
    dust to settle.  It's been a few months now and I am tired of cleaning
    plaster dust. YUK!!!
    
    Another amazing thing - the Federal agencies will test a public
    site for asbestos but if you want them to test your home they will
    not - even for a fee.  They recommended some company in Columbus,
    Ohio who charges $375 to check and see if we really have asbestos 
    covered pipes in our cellar.  We already know that we do - amazing
    what you find in these OLD houses.
    
    good luck - we have one more room to do and dreading it!
    
    Donna Capella @CYO
    Cincinnati, OH
                      

    I've read all of the notes on the topic, but I'm not sure my question
    has been addressed. I am about redo a bedroom, which involves taking
    down  panelling put up by a former owner. I checked a few areas
    and found damaged plaster, i.e. lath showing through around the
    windows and just below the baseboards. I suspect there is plaster
    damage around the nail holes for the panelling and that sort of
    thing. After I take down the panelling, I'll be removing any number
    of layers of wallpaper.
    
    How naive am I being to think I can just patch (spackle) all the
    damage,  sand it smooth and then size and repaper? Should I go all
    the way back to the studs and then put up sheetrock? (ugh) Or can
    I get away with repairing the existing plaster? If so, what is the
    best way?
    
    The house is around 60 years old (which is how old I'm gonna feel
    when I'm through with this one :-)  Thanks.   
    

    You won't really know until you take the wallpaper off. The chances
    seem good that you will be able to get off with patching the plaster.

If the majority of the plaster is in good shape, repairing nail holes and 
other localized damage with spackle is reasonable.  

If the plaster has failed in a more substantial way, you're better off 
tearing out the wall and replacing it.  (This decision can be made on a 
wall-by-wall basis, sometimes even in units less than a wall, by the way). 
Two reasons why it's better to replace in this case: 

1. Major patches made of Spackle will take lots of time and material, and 
   aren't likely to be very successful

2. You want to get inside the wall to find out why the plaster failed, e.g. 
   water leaks from plumbing or from outside.

Other considerations include:

- The quality and condition of any existing wood (or plaster!) trim in the 
  room:  replacing plaster with sheetrock can cause problems, since the 
  thickness of your plaster is guaranteed not to be a uniform, standard 
  drywall thickness.

- How difficult will it be to strip those multiple layers of wallpaper 
  (intermixed with layers of paint?)?  Ripping the whole wall down might be 
  less work in extreme cases.

- The usual safety concerns about dust, lead paint chips, chemical stripper
  fumes, fire hazards of heat strippers, overzealous destruction of walls 
  that contain active wiring and plumbing, etc.

See back issues of the Old-House Journal for lots of information on plaster
repairs. 

>    The house is around 60 years old (which is how old I'm gonna feel
>    when I'm through with this one :-)  Thanks.   
    
Ah, a youngster.  :-)

    If the walls are 60 years old, it's in all probability "real" plaster.
    I think you're doomed to go the whole demolition route, but you
    may be lucky.  Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.  You
    may want to take down a small section first, to see how things go,
    before wading into the whole project.
    If you can save the plaster, do it.  Tearing out plaster is a wretched
    job.  But if it's too bad, take your losses and go for the whole
    works.  

I just re-did 3 rooms in an 85 yr old house.  In those rooms I had no 
choice, but the remaining rooms are being patched and skimmed. I'd avoid 
ripping out the old stuff at all costs, ESPECIALLY if your going to wallpaper.
You'll be in for a 2-3 month experience with plaster dust. The stuff is 
awful, and it takes *months* to settle. 

In my remaining rooms, I was able to spackle small holes.  BIG holes and 
"soft" sections were repaired by careful use of sheetrok and 
screws (I recessed them slightly).  This takes a lot of careful 
workmanship, but it's worth it.  I painted the finished walls, and they 
look great. 

Taking down the old stuff is messy, but new sheetrok is nice to work with.
If you decide to rip thie old stuff out, I'd move out for 2 months.

...bill

      Since you have lath, you do have plaster.  If it is not in very
    bad shape and you are willing to try an inexpensive alternative
    to ripping out the walls, try using plaster wall patch (I believe
    the company is Durabond).  I have plaster over sheetrock and have
    been using this stuff to level the walls (slightly bowed) and am
    amazed at how nice this stuff is to work with.  If you accidently
    drop some, don't worry about it, just wipe it up.  If you get it on
    your clothing,  don't worry about it,  wait till it dries and sponge
    it off with a damp cloth.  It seems to stick only where it is supposed 
    to. I can't say enough about the stuff.  I avoid spackling compounds 
    as much as possible.  When they touch something, it stays...like your 
    clothing, floor etc..  Admittedly I  am a bit sloppy with plaster wall 
    patch  because it is so forgiving and I tend to fill large areas with
    it(and I'm going to replace the floor anyway).  What you do NEED is a 
    surface that can 'wick' some of the moisture to let it adhere  i.e.  
    rough the surface you are applying it to.  Also, it wants to drink
    water while it is curing.  Spray a mist of water on it every so often.
    It also cures relatively quickly.  If any of it doesn't cure, then it 
    will dry white.  Just scrape that part off and go at it again (I find 
    that this is usually caused by not giving it enough water).  The
    stuff is relatively cheap (if you shop at Spag's).
    
    -Jim
                                                                
    PS:  One other comment.  When sanding plaster, spackling compound,
        or anything else for that matter, leave a fan in the window aiming
        outward and open a window elsewhere in the house to blow the dust
        outside.  This is a lesson I learned the hard way!

    Some more considerations:
    
    If the holes are small, patch them.  Be aware that if you're papering
    that many of the holes won't even need to be repaired.  (many walls
    that were built to be papered are not really all that smooth to
    begin with)
    
    If the holes are fairly large and the rest of the wall is intact,
    then I'd repair them with real plaster.  Get a spray gun and wet
    the lath a little, patch the stuff and sand it.  This is good for
    holes up to about 1 ftsq.
    
    After that, I'd tear it down.  One technique that we used when ripping
    out a ceiling was to put two heavy drop cloths soaked with water
    over each door opening (on on each side of the frame) and a fan
    in the window blowing out.  We really didn't have that much dust
    afterwards.  
    
    
    When you get the new stuff put up, get blueboard and have it skim
    coated.  It's much nicer looking than the drywall/tape route.
    
    
    -bill
    

    One more suggestion: If you decide to leave the walls and patch
    them you may want to use a wallpaper liner before putting up the
    wallpaper.  I just went through the same job you're describing.
    My house is about 75 years old and has the horse hair walls.  I
    patched and sanded the rough areas, then I put up the wallpaper
    liner.  
    
    It's a thick material which tends to hide most imperfections.  Since
    my walls are the horse hair, even if the walls are flat, the sandy
    finish could leave the wallpaper with a bumpy surface.  The liner
    sells for about $11.00 a double roll at Somerville Lumber and it's
    very easy to hang.  It gave me a chance to sharpen up on my wallpapering
    skills before putting up the final paper.  Then I sized
    the paper like regular walls and hung a fairly thick vinyl wallpaper.
    
    Well, I finished the job over the July 4th weekend and it looks
    great.  I'm very happy that I went through a little extra trouble
    to hang the wallpaper liner.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Denise
    

	To keep from starting a new note, this looked like a good place
to put this question. 

	I have a couple of cracks & water stains in a skim coated wall.
The wall is a textured/stucco type finish. I've dealt with smooth walls
before which take a little Spackle, BIN and paint to fix but never this stucco
finish. As near as I can tell the wall is not painted, but the color is
a solid white unlike a regular skim coat wall which dries in shades of white.

	I got rid of most of the stains with a bleach and water mix but it 
is still visible. Not knowing the color paint (if indeed it is painted) makes 
it hard to cover unless I plan on painting the whole room.
	
My questions then:

	Is this wall painted or just a special type of plaster?
	
	Whats the best material to use to cover the stain and patch the cracks?


			Thanks...
				...Dave

I just did major renovations to my stucco'd kitchen.  I patched cracks, 
gouges, and new holes with plain old wallboard joint compound. We got 
pretty good at matching the swirly stucco look.  Then, I got a very fluffy 
paint roller (the kind used for textured surfaces), and painted the whole 
wall(s). Result?  Looks great.  No cracks, no one can tell.  It took a lot 
of paint, but it was worth it.  If I were doing it again I would have 
thinned the paint a bit.

good luck,
...bill

    My fiance and I are in the process of filling some cracks/holes
    in a 75 year old house.  In particular, the walls are of the 
    "mohair" (?) variety.  We were wondering what the best type of spackle,
    mud, plaster etc. one should use to get the job done.  Some holes
    are of the 1" variety (down to the wood supports), another is a
    patch job (apparently someone filled a 1.5 foot square whole with
    some type of mohair board and then plastered over it, unfortunately,
    it sticks out about 3/8's of an inch - my solution has been to grind
    the whole are down - read-into the mohair- and cover it with spackle)
    I don't know if I am using cheap spackle or something, but it doesn't
    want to harden in the deep areas (assume this has something to do
    with the mohair's inability to wick the moisture away).  I also
    notice that the deep cracks, once filed with this stuff, still exists
    as it shrinks, sounds like I should be using some of the no shrink
    variety.
    
    Can anyone recommend some good "mud" for these applications?
                                                               
    
    One other problem, we are having the oak floors redone and upon
    lifting a section of "wall to wall" in the front foyer, we found
    a 2 foot by 2 foot section which had been replaced by pine.  Possibly
    a former heating grate?  Anyhow, we would like to replace it with
    oak, hopefully hiding the fact that it was a hole.  Appears that
    some sections of existing oak should be pulled up, sawed off, and
    replaced/meshed in with some new oak.
    
    Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
    
    
    Rick

    Re. shrinking and cracking
    
    There is nothing wrong with this. Deep patch jobs take a long time to
    dry and will shrink and crack as they do. Just keep going over these
    areas with 2nd, 3rd or more coats until you have filled the void. The
    repeat coats will be thinner than the first coat and will dry in less
    time and with less shrinking and cracking. 
    
    On the first coat with old-dry plaster as you desribed, it might help to
    wet the plaster first with a spray bottle. By doing this, the old
    plaster won't suck the water out of the patching comound too quickly
    and weaken the bond. 

    Charly

    
    	I had to fill a couple of large holes (1-2" across) where some
    joints had settled. I did it by filling the hole with patching plaser
    (i.e. contains Plaster of Paris)  This suff dries via chemical reaction
    rather than evaporation.  When that dried, I used joint compound
    for the final coat.  The problem I had with patching plaster is
    that it tends to dust if rubbed.  The joint compound doesn't and
    it also leaves a smoother coat.  
    
    	Hope this helps.
    
    					- Pete
    

< Note 1352.0 by WITNES::SCHUETTE >
                    -< Plastering and Woodworking Help !!! >-

    
>    One other problem, we are having the oak floors redone and upon
>    lifting a section of "wall to wall" in the front foyer, we found
>    a 2 foot by 2 foot section which had been replaced by pine.  Possibly
>    a former heating grate?  Anyhow, we would like to replace it with
>    oak, hopefully hiding the fact that it was a hole.  Appears that
>    some sections of existing oak should be pulled up, sawed off, and
>    replaced/meshed in with some new oak.
    
We had the same problem in our house in Worcester,Mass. In the living
room a 3'x 3' section of the original flooring was removed and replaced
with 3/4" plywood.  The company that resanded/finished the floors, 
Worcester Floor Company, managed to find some old flooring in a house
that was being torn down and managed to match the flooring fairly close.
Be sure and add some support under the new flooring, I.E. 2x4 or 2x6
braces would help.   :)


						Joef

    FYI, I think you mean 'horsehair' vs. 'mohair'.  Those would be
    awful expensive walls!
    
    Pete

    Thank you for all your replies.  Appears that I should get some
    of the plaster which sets "chemically" as well as some of the air
    dry variety.  Any suggestions on what brands to buy?
    

    
    	The stuff I think I used was Durobond (?) They sell it at most
    	places (i.e. I got it a Caldor's)  It is called Patching Plaster.
    	(In smaller lettering is should say that it contains Plaster
   	of Paris)  That company also sells stuff which is all Plaster
    	of Paris.  I'd stick with the patching plaster though. (no pun
    	intended).
    
    	As for the final coat, any type of Joint compound should be
    	fine.  Grossies has quite a selection.
    
    					- Pete
    

I've recently redone 3 rooms that have old Wilbur-hair (horse) plaster.
I had very good result from using good 'ol wallboard mud.  This stuff 
worked fine for filling fairly large holes, and for 'skimming' the entire 
wall to get a nice finish. 

I guess if the stuff gets wet it could be bad news, but I'm not planning 
any showers in my living room.

good luck,

..bill

    I like joint compound for the top coat, but if you want to use spackle,
    Consumer Reports reviewed spackles recently. They seem to like the
    new light spackles which I haven't tried yet.
    
      mitch

    
    	You have the answers to the plastering in the replies so far.
    
    	Your floor problem is a different matter. It would be virtually
    	impossible to replace the pine and not have it look like a 
    	patch job....why not put down a layer of slate to cover the
    	pine and a little more . It'll protect the floor and give
    	the foyer a little class

                                ___GM___

    in re the oak/pine floor
    .-1, slate or tile sounds like a very attractive suggestion.
    Alternatively,if I understand .0 correctly, we did exactly what
    you propose to do to your floor.  When we bought our house, one
    of the rooms was divided in two 
------------------------------------------------------------
|                              |                           |
|                              |                           |
|                              |                           |
|                              |                           |
|                              |                           |
|                              |                           |
|                              |                           |
|                              |                           |
____________________________________________________________ 
   
    with a partition. One of the floors had oak, the other plywood with
    rug. We tore out the partition, took off the rug, tore up the plywood,
    tore up the oak, bought more oak, mixed all the oak together (new and
    used), laid the floor and refinished it. I think that what you propose
    to do make sense and should be a lot easier than what was necessary in
    Our Old House. It REQUIRES that the entire floor be sanded afterwood,
    which you already plan on doing. I think it also requires that the 2 x
    2 area become a 2 X N rectangle of new oak where N is the length of an
    entire course of oak flooring (either length of room or width of room).

One caution:

Hopefully the 2 x 2 area is on an edge of the room like this
     --------------------------------
     |                              |
     |                              |
     |                              |
     |                              |
     |                              |
     |                              |
     |                       ____   |
     |                      |    |  |
     _______________________|____|___

and not in the middle of the room like this

     --------------------------------
     |                              |
     |                              |
     |                              |
     |       ____                   |
     |      |    |                  |
     |      |____|                  |
     |         |           |        |
     |         |           |        |
     __________v___________v_________

If the latter, I think it will be necessary to tear up all the floor 
from the 2 X 2 square to the wall, as indicated by the dotted lines.


I would be interested in comments on these points. 

Putting in a slate foyer was considered, but do to the area (12'X 3)
    and a little more for the short part of the "L" we are going to
    patch and cover with a "runner".  I ordered some matching maple
    from New England hardwoods, four eight foot lengths, 3" wide, plus
    the tongue and groove, all for $65.00.  Sounded like a great price
    to me...I plan to pull out every other board adjacent the 2.5'X2.5'
    hole and mesh in the new wood.
    
    Thanks for all the advise.
    
    ps  I am looking at putting in a driveway.  Right now I have your
    basic dirt/gravel driveway.  I've had someone quote a price which
    is around 1.50 a square foot.  That would include digging out a
    foundation(?), filling with crushed gravel, asphalt and some type
    of finish coat.  Does this sound reasonable?  The earlier notes
    in this file are somewhat old, anybody have a driveway done in the
    past 3 months?
    
    rick

>	anybody have a driveway done in the
>    	past 3 months?
    
	I had mine done last Wednesday.  It's @1,200 sq ft and required little
in the way of excavation by the paver because I had that done by the land-
scaper while he was there (about 6" of packed gravel and stone).  The paving
was $1,700 for 3" of base and 2" of finish coat.  Check with your paver as to
what thicknesses he was quoting you.  If he's talking 2" base/1" finish
(typical) plus excavation, $1.50 is a good price.  If he's talking thicker
hot-top, it's an *excellent* price. 


	Good luck					--Mike

PS Get some references if you're not sure of his work.

    Hi,
    
    I am in the process of stripping the wallpaper off my horse-hair
    plaster walls.  (my house is 100 yrs old)  the wall is crumbling
    in places so I was wondering how should I prepare the walls before
    I put on new wallpaper?  do I repair the cracks with spackle?  or
    more plaster?  and do I prime the wall before I put the paper on?
    and what do I use for primer...(is that what it's called) and is
    there any special brand you guys reccomend???
    
    also, I have round walls in the rooms.  how do I smooth the cracks
    and broken pieces there.
    
    any help is appreciated and I thank you in advance!
    
    rosie

    I'd patch with anything handy (joint compound is probably the easiest,
    although it takes several coats to fill big holes), then put on a
    coat of latex paint to seal the wall before papering.  I did my
    dining room a while ago, and after a thorough washing to get the
    old glue off, and judicious skim-coating of the rough spots with
    joint compound, the wall was good enough to paint; two coats of
    semi-gloss latex came out quite good.  (It's still a little rough,
    but that just adds "character" to the house!)  If you want to re-
    wallpaper, you shouldn't have any problem.  The paint does seem
    to help hold the wall together a bit, if it's crumbling...up to
    a point.  If it's falling off in big pieces, you may need to start
    thinking of major overhaul.

    Point .1 is correct when he states use most anything to do the patching
    as long as it will do the job.  However, I would be careful using
    a latex paint over the plaster prior to papering.  What you may
    want to use is a primer called "sizing".  It fills the pores and
    prepares the surface to accept the adhesive and paper.  If you use
    latex, the latex could seperate from the plaster after a time. 
    The sizing will not as a rule.  Any good Paint and wallpaper store
    should be able to point you in the right direction.
    Good luck.
    

    If you're stripping wallpaper, the best solution is to rent a propane-
    fired (NOT electric) steamer.  In one day, you should be able to strip
    a single layer of wallpaper off the walls in several rooms.  More
    layers will take more time. 
    
    When I stripped the wallpaper of the walls in our bedrooms, I found
    that the plaster beneath had never been painted.  There were lots
    of cracks due to settling of the house, holes, crumbly spots, and
    areas where the plaster had separated from the lath. Great. To save
    money, my wife and I decided to paint rather than paper -- we could 
    always paper later.  
    
    The first step is to remove everything from the room, and protect
    the floor.  I used plastic sheeting laid across the floor and taped 
    to the top of the baseboard. Makes cleanup easy. Don't use masking tape.  
    
    Using stiff bristle brushes and soft wire (brass) brushes, loosen any 
    crumbly plaster from the perimeter of the holes and cracks, and
    the surface of the wall. With a linoleum knife, widen the cracks so 
    that you can see the lath underneath -- 1/4" wide should do.  With
    a scraper, smooth the surface of the plaster to correct any bad
    patching jobs.  Use the brushes to clean out the cracks of loose
    plaster particles.  If there are any places where the plaster is
    "floating" away from the lath, screw in some buttons to hold it
    to the wall.  (buttons and drywall screws available from most hardware
    stores.) 
    
    When everything is clean, you're ready to start applying joint
    compound.  Start first on filling the holes and cracks, as these
    will take repeat applications.  First, wet the inside of the 
    cracks/holes and the surrounding plaster with a spray bottle of 
    water. While the crack is still damp, pick up some joint compound
    on a 3 or 4" flexible scraper, and squish it into the crack so that 
    it adheres to both the lath and the edges of the plaster. Scrape off 
    excess compound to the level of wall. Leave very little compound
    on the surface of the wall. Continue with process on down the crack, 
    or on to another hole.  
    
    The next morning, you'll find that the plaster has dried and shrunk.
    leaving a depression in all of the cracks you filled.  You'll have
    to repeat the process with another coat of compound.  This coat
    too will shrink, but rather than apply another (and another) coat
    of compound, you should use a non-shrinking compound like One-Time.
    One-time will be your final coat, which you can then sand with medium
    to fine paper to finish.  To make sure everything is smooth, hold
    a lamp close to the wall and look for shadows on the plaster.  The
    lamp is helpful throughout the entire process, by the way. 
       
    I'll add more to this in another note.
    
    Gotta go.
    Joe  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Hi, me again...
    
    I removed the wallpaper (all in one day) with someone's suggestion
    of vinegar and water...what an easy way of doing it (40% vinegar
    to 60% water)  I just sprayed it on and scraped it off, just like
    butter!  I reccommend it highly!
    
    your suggestions are helpful...I never thought I could do anything
    like this on my own...hopefully I'll have my mother's touch with
    picking out wallpaper and such....she's got great taste (she kept
    me)...
    
    I've got some spackle at home and will pick up some of the repair
    gook later...(sounds real professional, doesn't it?)...
    
    thanks for the help.   I'll let you know how everything comes out
    (or down, as the case may be....)
    
    Rosie

    
    
    I would like to add one downside note to all the good stuff here.
    in houses that are over fifty years old and the original plaster
    is still in place be very carefull to keep the room well ventilated
    and the dust down as much as possible. DO NOT let little kids eat
    the stuff, it may taste sweet and be a real treat to them but -----
    In the original plaster there may be some arsenic and/or lead which
    were used as binders. Unless you're alergic to animals don't worry
    about the horse hair, it was there as a filler. My nephew made a
    meal of the plaster from the bedroom walls of their 115 year old
    house and had to be treated at the hospital for lead poisoning.
    
    Reasonable caution and a good sizing over the raw plaster before
    any finish work is done will eliminate any risk of contamination
    to anyone. By this time any outgassing of the vapors will be long
    gone and there is not enough there to concern yourself with as far
    as skin contact unless refinishing walls is your lifes work.

    
    Steve
    

    To get onto the wallpaper part, be real careful when choosing
    a pattern.  We have an unlevel house with round corners on all
    the outside walls.  The paper won't go smoothly around the corners
    and, at least in our house, we had to either place a small separate
    piece for the corner or cut the paper in the middle and overlap
    it.  Stripes will also point out just how unplumb a room is.
    We've found the simpler the pattern the better and will probably
    paint from now on.

I have regular sheetrock on a room that I want to plaster.  No joint
compound or tape on the seems of the sheetrock.  Someone just told me
that you can use a product called Bond-All, Wield-A-Bond, or Link that
you paint on the sheetrock and then it can be plastered.  Anyone have
any experience with this?  The room in questioned was recently converted
to a cathedral ceiling and blueboard was used on the new wall and new
ceiling.  This new area will be plastered.  I would like to have all walls
plastered and not get into taping and compounding.  Any comments or
experiences are welcomed.

    
    I have a contractor scheduled to do just what you refered to. He
    is scheduled to do the work on OCT 19. He is going to use a bonding
    agent on existing sheetrock and then plaster over it. If I can find
    out the name of the stuff I will let you know.
    
    Dick
    

    Are there any transparent ways of fixing cracks in a plaster ceiling?
    This is a hair line crack.  I do not want to use spackle because
    I would then need to paint the entire ceiling.  The ceiling is a
    mixture of sand and plaster.  Any help will be appreciated.

    Paul Cornell (who we recently had do an inspection on the advice
    of this conference and who was as good as claimed, thank you)
    recommends latex caulking.  In your case, you would be able to wash
    off any overflow and avoid painting.

    What does it mean to "repair" the crack?  To disguise the eyesore?
    To prevent further damage?

    I live in an old Victorian (circa 1878) and have fixed numerous
    ceiling cracks.  Here's the method I prefer:
    
    1. Spackle the crack with one of the new lightweight spackles
    2. Use nylon, sticky backed joint tape to to tape over the entire run of
       the crack
    3. Use Joint Compound to cover tape, feathering compound as you
       would if you were dry walling.
    4. Wet sponge to get it smooth
    5. Paint it and forget it cause its fixed.  If it ever cracks
       again, you've got structural problems.
    
    The latest issue of the Old House Journal has an article on plaster
    and it's probably the best reference for old house restoration.
    I don't know how old your house is, but if it works on mine, it'll
    work on yours.
    
    Jim
    
    

    
    
    	Re .3
    
    ! 5. Paint it and forget it cause its fixed.  If it ever cracks
         again, you've got structural problems.
    
    
    	This is not true !
    
    	I have read and talked to a structual engineer who said that
    all buildings no mater what they are made of will give and take
    thru the years shifting all the time. There is nothing in the world
    you can do to prevent plaster or sheetrock from cracking. It is
    a fact of life. Your house will always be shifting and that shifting
    gets transmitted to your walls which will eventually cause them
    to crack. The majority of shifting is seen in the outside supporting
    walls of a house which will bow in and out thru its life. 
    The subject of shiting and expansion was beat to death on channel
    2 during a week long segment on archetecture.

    
    	-Steve-
    

    Just because a building moves doesn't mean the ceilings have to
    crack.  I've got ceilings with nary a crack in them.  There are
    tons of reasons why they do crack.  I just went through a situation
    where a ceiling started sagging and when I took enough plaster down
    to see what happened, sure enough, in 1948 (newspapers dated the
    installation of a bathroom) a bathroom was added and some serious
    disregard for structural supports had taken place.  I had to take down
    the whole ceiling, repair the damage by adding new headers, blueboard
    and skimcoat the whole thing.  Normally, I try to save the old ceiling
    at all expense and have only blueboarded over the existing ceiling
    in two rooms.
    
    The point I make about nylon tape and joint compound is that if
    you get enough and continuous movement to re-crack a nylon taped
    joint, you've got, and I'll repeat, got a structural problem.  I've
    repaired a lot of ceilings with this method and they don't re-crack.
    I'd be happy to show you a wall (over a door) that's got about 9
    plaster buttons holding up 8 major pieces with construction glue
    holding the rest.  With tape and joint compound, its fixed!  A hairline
    crack is made for tape and joint compound-  a permanent fix.

    The Old house Journal, and I recommend this publication to anyone who
    owns a older home (doesn't have to be 200 or 100 years old) as the
    definitve source of information regarding home repair and/ or
    restoration.  
    
    There are OHJ guidelines about cracks and what they mean.  A hairline
    crack is of little or no consequence but a 1/4 incher (depending
    on where it is) can be serious.  A 1/4 incher at the top corner
    of a doorway and running to the ceiling is almost normal; however,
    a 1/4 incher running from a load bearing wall in any direction can
    be serious.
    
    There are at least two current volumes of the "Best of the OHJ"
    around in bookstores.
    
    
    Jim
    
    

  I am helping a friend repaint and  otherwise  fixup  the  entry way and
  living room of a split entry house, and we have the following question.
  There is a hand railing that is free standing  that  is  used  for  the
  stairs that go up into the living room.  It  looks  something like this
  from a top view:
                                           |
                                           |
                                           |
                        --------------------
    Wall at top of      |
         landing  -->   |
                        |
                        ----------------------------------------------
                         __
                         A ||  <-- Handrailing going from top of 
                           ||      landing to entrance
                           ||
                           ||     
  
  As I said, the  handrailing  is  free  standing, fastened down into the
  stairs, and fastened into the wall at point A above.  The original bolt
  that was used was easily shaken loose in the wall by general use of the
  hand railing.  To the best of  our knowledge, the wall is sheetrock.  I
  imagine that there there must be some sort  of  wood  framing,  but  we
  haven't investigated that info.
  
  Can anybody recommend a method of  fastening  the  handrailing  to  the
  wall that won't pull loose as easily?    We  do  not want to put a bolt
  completely through the wall, though I suppose that would work.  We have
  filled in the previous hole with spackle, and I  know that won't be any
  more sturdy than the original wall was.  The  original  hole  showed no
  signs of having reached any wood at all, so the entire support was with
  the sheetrock - not too good for that part of a handrail.
  
  Thanks,
  
  - Tom

    Assuming the drawing is to scale (HA!), point A might be too close
    to the edge of the wall to hit the wood framing. Try probing
    with a thin drill bit, 3/4" or longer, to find the wood (the holes
    are easily spackled). Start looking about 1" from the edge of the
    wall. You might have to move point A to under the rail, or even to 
    the other side.
    
    If you don't find any wood, post large "NO LEANING" signs on the
    railing, and on the wall :^)

    How about a toggle bolt/screw? I've used them for plant hangers
    in the ceiling, and they work great. You drill a hole slightly larger
    than the diameter of the bolt and insert the "wings" of the toggle
    (screw attached) into the hole and tighten. Toggle screws look
    something like this:

            | |\
      |=====|=|==
         ^  | |/ <-- toggle (nut)
         |   ^ 
     screw   |
            wall
      

    I've found that you have to drill a pretty big hole to pass the
    wings through.  This is fine for the hangers since the base plate
    of the hook more than covers the hole.  For precise anchor points
    I use plastic screw anchors (sized to whatever wood screws are
    provided).
    
    Phil Yoo (amateur DIY)

If you want the handrail to be a real handrail, then you're going to have to 
anchor it to something solid, the sheetrock just won't do.  Remember, the 
railing isn't there just for looks, it is to help support you and catch you if 
you fall.  If it's just tied into the sheetrock, it would come off in your hand
if you ever tried to use it to break a fall.

Either move the rail to a nearby stud, or rip out a section of sheetrock, 
install a piece of 2x4 (or preferably 2) attached to solid framing members as a 
backing for the rail, patch the sheetrock and then install the rail.

Paul

  I think the answer is pretty clear.  If I want it usable, then it needs
  to be anchored  to  something  solid  (not  sheetrock).  Thanks for the
  input.
  
  - Tom

 Drilling a series of holes might not be necessary. 

 I had to install an outside porch onto my house which had plaster and lathing
over studs. The studs were irregularly placed and the plaster/lathing was 1-1/2"
thick. I bought a "Stud Sensor" (available at many stores) which has a series
of lights on it. This sensor is pressed on the wall and passed from side to side
and the more lights light up as the the material gets denser. This worked GREAT
and allowed me to pre-drill all my holes, swing my platform out the window and
bolt it into place. Every bolt hit and I was very happy.

 Perhaps this Stud Sensor would allow you to locate your studs...

 Kind regards,
-Tom Rezucha

    I agree, if at all possible find a stud and fasten the railing to
    that.  The StudSensor gizzie works great, as advertised, and is
    THE way to find studs in sheetrock walls.

    If it turns out that there aren't any, here's an idea for you. 
    I don't like toggle bolts much; the hole has to be so big the
    bolt rattles around if there is any sideways force on the bolt
    at all, and you have potential sideways forces with the handrail.
    A better choice, I think, might be "Molly" bolts.  They are designed
    to do basically the same thing as toggle bolts, but instead of
    spring-loaded wings, they have sections that bend outward, behind
    the wall, when you tighten the bolt.  The body of the Molly bolt
    is the same diameter as the hole, so it doesn't shift, and once
    installed it stays put; you can take out the bolt and the anchor
    part stays in the wall.
    If you have to go that route, I'd suggest getting a block of wood
    perhaps 6" square and 1" thick, fastening it to the wall with 4
    Molly bolts, and then fastening the railing to that.

    I don't believe plastic expansion anchors would be suitable for
    this application, either.  Sheetrock just isn't solid enough to
    hold them if any serious strain is applied.

    re .6, .7
    
    Yeah, I have a Stud Sensor too, but the metal bead usually found
    on an outside corner really plays havoc with it.

When my wife and I decided to buy our house (our first), we agreed 
that the first thing to go would be the ski-chalet type fireplace
in the back room.  Well, it's gone.  And the brick and mortar that 
it sat upon are gone as well.  But the walls in that corner were 
covered with mortar and some sort of brick facing...real brick, as
far as I can tell, and fireproof, but only about a half inch thick.
This thin brick stuff was put up directly on top of the plaster wall.

The problem is getting it to come off.  I can break off the bricks
with a masonry chisel, but it leaves the thin layer of mortar still
on the wall, which is very tough to get off with a scraper.  Could
anyone suggest a method of taking off this last layer of cement, 
without (overly) damaging the plaster beneath?  Or any tricks to 
make the scraping easier?

Thanks,

Dan

    If the layer of mortar is thin enough how about trying to sand it
    off with sandpaper and sanding block or something like that? You
    don't care if ALL the mortar comes off, you just want to get it
    smooth enough to paint over it and sanding with fine paper won't
    hurt your plaster. Just get as much off as you can by scraping first.
    
    
    Bob

We've got about a third of the area finished, using the masonry 
chisel, a cold chisel for the mortar, and a scraper for the bits
and pieces.  It's a bit slow, and we've taken out some good sized
chunks of plaster (six to eight square inches), but it's nothing
that a batch of patching plaster won't fix.  There's also the hole
in the ceiling where the chimney once was, which needs patching,
but I think I've got that figured out.

This is definitely more fun than renting...I hope we can handle the
excitement.

Dan

    I have a dump question. What is the purpose to plaster over a sheetrock
    wall.ceiling ? because it looks better with plaster ? or other reason that
    I can't figure out ? What does skim coat mean ? Is is worth to spend
    big bucks to plaster/skim coat the wall and then put wall paper
    to cover it up ?

    Nit: you don't put a plaster skimcoat over sheetrock, it goes over
    blueboard.  
    A plaster skimcoat is about 1/8" thick, and is strictly for
    appearance, as far as I know.   The surface is harder, which 
    I suppose might be considered an advantage, but otherwise I
    can't think of any.
    It turns out that a plaster skimcoat is not all that much more than
    sheetrock/taping/compounding, assuming you hire somebody to do the
    sheetrock/taping/compounding.  By the time somebody does all the
    work necessary to make sheetrock look really good, it's not cheap
    anymore.  Assuming you hire somebody.  Me, I HATE doing sheetrock
    work, and would hire somebody.
    As far as appearance goes, plaster DOES look different -- and I
    think better -- than sheetrock, no matter how good a sheetrock job 
    it is.  And, a good plasterer can give texture to the walls, if
    that appeals to you.  But, if you're going to wallpaper over it, 
    who cares.  I prefer painted walls, myself.  
    

    I agree with .1. I built an addition to my house and I didn't want
    to do the seams myself so I used blueboard and had a plasterer come
    in and skimcoat it. A skimcoat gives a nice hard, smooth like glass
    finish. A plasterer does it in one day. If I did the seams myself
    I'd probably be STILL be doing it. They also did a texture on the
    ceiling  which I probably could not do. Also it cost only a little
    more than just having someone come in and tape/compound it. However,
    as was mentioned, if you're papering it really doesn't matter but
    you should still prime/paint the walls first.
    
    
    Bob

    Actually, if you are papering, the wall surface can make a lot of
    difference.  This is especially true if you are using what is termed 
    a "metallic paper".  (no this isn't tin foil or Xmas gold metal foil)  
    In such a case you would want the smoothest walls possible as the
    paper will tend to show blemishes easily.  With an amateur tape job 
    the results after papering may not be esthetically pleasing.  For
    this case a good skim coat would be a good idea.
    
    Stan

    Depending on the type of wallpaper (paper, vinyl, etc.) wouldn't
    you need to apply a coat of "sizing"? When I wallpapered the bathroom
    (I'll *never* do it again) it was recommended that I apply a diluted
    coat of vinyl paste first.
    
    Can someone please explain skim coat? I too would rather take a
    beating than tape/compound/sand/compound/sand...(Come to think of
    it, doing all that IS like taking a beating!)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jim
    

    The reason I raised the question in .0 is that I had a quote from
    a general contractor for the 20 x 26 addition which has two 12-1/2
    x 20 rooms. The quote for interior finish was $976 material, and
    a whopping $$$ 3360 labor. This was for sheetrock, tape & joint compound.
    Base on this estimate, I can't even imagine what it would cost for
    plaster/skimcost. If apperance is the only difference, I may just
    use sheetrock, tape & j-comp and use my own cheap labor. I've seen
    TOH putting in tape and J-comp and it didn't seem too difficult.
    I can use the $3600 for a lot of beer and a lot of other good things
    that I may want for the addition.

>    Base on this estimate, I can't even imagine what it would cost for
>    plaster/skimcost. 

Probably about the same.  Skimcoat requires more skill (higher hourly
rate), but about the same amount of time, and fewer visits (so you pay for
less travel time).  Actually, since plaster is more forgiving of surface
imperfections than joint compound is, the wallboard installation may be
cheaper with plaster.


>   If apperance is the only difference...

In my area (greater Maynard), a house with plaster walls is reported to 
have more resale value.


>    ...I may just
>    use sheetrock, tape & j-comp and use my own cheap labor. I've seen
>    TOH putting in tape and J-comp and it didn't seem too difficult.

It's a question of the quality of the results.  If you're a fussy, detail-
oriented person, you'll probably be doing a pretty good job after a few
hours - and you'll probably be ready for a rubber room at the end of the
job.  If you're a sloppy, that's-good-enough type of person, the job will
look it.

Hiring a pro doesn't guarantee great results - it only guarantees that
you'll have someone besides yourself to complain to about substandard
quality.  It's my understanding (and bias) that sheetrockers have gone the
way of many trades these days - quantity before quality - but that
plasterers are, as a rule, still craftsmen - taking pride in their work,
taking the time to do the job right, and charging accordingly. 

When I had to make the same decision two years ago, plaster won.  I'm still
happy with that decision. 

In my last house, one could see a horizontal seam running almost the entire 
perimeter of the house both upstairs and down.  Furthermore, I saw a fair number
of nailheads popping out.  I would assume screws would solve the nailhead 
problem even with taping/jointing compound, but after seeing those seams I swore
I'd NEVER go with that again - admittedly, a better rock hanger would have 
probably done a better job.

Anyhow, my current house is all skimcoated AND most of the walls are papered.
Not only do they look great, but the walls I stripped and re-papered were a 
breeze.  Ever rip sheetrock when stippng paper?  Skim coat is virtually 
indestructable.

-mark

    	Back when I was rich :^) I had my kitchen done in
    blueboard/plaster skim coat.  The walls and ceiling look 
    fantastic.  However the total cost was about $1200.  When I added
    a bath and redid a bedroom, I opted for wallboard/JC for $$$ reasons.
    The total costs for about the same size area was $300 in board and
    supplies (32 4'x8' sheets).  Total time was 40 hours for me, and an 
    additional 8 hours for another person to help hang the board.  The
    work was not that hard, and it turn out very nice.  I am a very
    fussy person and took my time.  I can tell the difference, but I
    bet the average person doesn't notice or really care.  The majority
    of new construction these days is done with wallboard/JC.
    	I guess my bottom line is if you are going to pay to have it
    done get the plaster.  However with some work you can save lots
    of money that can be put to other uses.
    
    				Good Luck with whatever you choose,
    					=Ralph=

    I will agree with all comments that blueboard and skimcoat are
    much nicer, and the wallpaper does goes up (and down) more smoothly.
    
    I recently had two 12x28 rooms plus a kitchen done with the skimcoat,
    and had the ceilings "scrolled" (or whatever the fancy swirls are
    called) and my cost was not as much as your estimate....sounds
    to me like you need to ask for another price.
    
    

    	Another consideration is what the rest of the house has. I
    personally would think someone was trying to cut corners if I was
    looking at a hose with an addition and found all the hose except
    addition had skimcoat.
    
    	Dave...Who_is_looking_for_a_plasterer_for_his_sunroom
    

    re: .8
    Exactly. The decision is COST driven. Yes, it would be nice to have
    plaster wall. But for $3300 saving, I'll go with JC and a lot of
    hardwork ( a good way to get myself in shape again ).
    
    One question in one of the privious note worries me. When you rip
    off the wall paper, would it have a tendency to rip off the sheetrock
    also ? If it does, can it be fixed easily ?
    
    Another question. Do the plasterer normally put up the wall also
    ? or do the owner out up the wall first and then have them skimcost
    it ? Will there be a substantial cost saveing by putting the wall
    yourself vs have them put the wall also ?
    
    
    
        

    	Hanging your own saves you almost nill. In the total job hanging
    is about 10-15% of the work the bulk of it is the expert's skimming
    ability.
    
    	Dave...
    

    I just have to make one more comment. It may look easy on TOH to
    do seams/joint compound, BUT if you never have done it before, I'm
    telling you, it IS a little tricky. I consider myself pretty good
    at carpentry and sheetrocking/taping/compounding etc, if I do say
    so myself, and I still shy away from taping/compounding. I always
    opt for a plasterer to finish it off if possible - small jobs are
    not bad for doing joint compound, though. But for big additions
    or new construction etc. I stay away from it if possible. Also,
    as was mentioned, a skim coat can cost the same or even less because
    there is less steps and less travel time and again it just looks
    MUCH better.
    
    
    
    

We had our house sheetrocked and taped about 3 years ago - thought about 
plaster skimcoat, but wound up not, largely because we were on a tight schedule 
and couldn't find a plasterer who could come and do it.  End result - the walls 
look awful (to my eye).  The turkeys who did it estimated it purely on a sq ft 
basis, and with all the angles, wood ceiling, beams, etc to work around, they 
got way behind, and I guess they rushed through to keep from losing more money.
Anyway, as we work around the house doing the finishing work, we need to repair 
the walls to make them look decent.

All that said, if you go to hang and tape it yourself - BUY THE RIGHT TOOLS.
You'll be saving $3600, so spend $150 and get the tools you need to do it 
right.  You'll save yourself literally days of time.

For hanging:

	Razor knife (obviously)

	4-ft square.  Designed especially for sheetrock.  Measure once, line 
	up, and cut.

	The cheapest router you can find, with a 1/16" drill bit chucked in it.
	Actually, come to think of it I'm not sure how they put that bit in the
	router, but the time it saves is amazing.  Zero measuring for outlet 
	boxes.  Just mark on the floor where the boxes are, put up the rock and
	tack it in place, then run the router bit into the center of the box,
	move sideways until you reach an edge, pull the bit up and over the 
	edge, and then outline the box.  Push the rock in over the box and 
	you're done.  The same for window and door openings - just put up the
	rock and cut out the excess in place.  THIS is the secret that lets
	rock hangers work so quickly.

For taping:

	Hawk.  This is about a 16" square piece of metal with a handle on the 
	bottom - used to carry the mud while you're working.

	6" knife - get a good one.

	Finishing trowel.  Don't get one of the cheap ones that look like 
	they're designed for homeowners.  Pros use a trowel that looks like
	a masonry trowel - about 12" long, and it has a slight crown to it.

	Something to hold the tape on your belt.  You can buy these, or you
	can probably rig up something.

Go to it.

Paul

    See if you can find out what that $3000+ labor cost includes.  That
    sounds kind of high to me.  I had a cathedral ceiling done last
    fall that was very difficult to do because the beams are all hand-
    hewn, warped, bowed, nothing is square, etc.  Part of the ceiling
    is over a "loft" area so the ceiling goes way down to the floor
    of the loft and to get to it you have to get down on your hands
    and knees and reach in.  The total area of the ceiling is about 600 
    square feet.  Anyway, a subcontractor hung the blueboard for about
    $750 and Bill Langley of Stow, Mass. did the plastering for about
    $1200.  He told me at the time that if the ceiling had been "normal"
    (flat and maybe 8' high) he probably could have done the whole thing 
    in a day for maybe $350.
    Re: .13
    Ditto on "It may look easy on TOH to do seams/joint compound, BUT..."
    Personally, I think it's an art form you either have a knack for
    or you don't.  I don't.  I've been trying to do sheetrock joints
    for years, and I've gotten to the point where I can make one look
    halfway decent, but it's always a struggle.  I AM getting better
    at it, but I've decided it's one skill I really don't care about
    learning, it's not worth it.  Not when I can hire a guy like Bill
    Langley and he can do more in one day than I could do in a month,
    with vastly superior results.

    JUST ONE MORE VOTE FOR SKIMCOAT. Our new house was recently completed
    and I made the mistake of having it sheet rocked instead of skimcoated.
    I don't know how much more or less it would of cost but I wish I
    went the other way. Every day I see lines, seams, screw heads popping
    out, etc. and I could kick myself for not spec'ing the skimcoat.
    Unless your really strapped for money, I'd definitly recommend
                                                     
                                                     going with the
    skimcoat.

I'm sure everyone's right about how good skimcoat is...

...however, my house proves that you can still get plenty of nail pops
with skim coat and you can still find spec builders who will do a
fast & cruddy job at skim coating.  At least plastering in the holes
and rough places wasn't so hard.

	Larry

    
.11>>  One question in one of the privious note worries me. When you rip
.11>>  off the wall paper, would it have a tendency to rip off the sheetrock
.11>>  also ? If it does, can it be fixed easily ?
    
    How I wish the people that "redid" my old house had used plaster
    instead of sheetrock.  I tried to strip the wallpaper in one small
    room.  I rent to the rental center (in beautiful downtown Athol), and
    rented a wallpaper steamer for 24 hours.  "This should be a piece of
    cake for 2 people" I thought, and *initially* it was.  My house was
    build about 90 years ago, and the walls were originally done in
    horse-hair plaster over wood lath.  During the stripping process, I
    realized that the room which now has only one door (excluding the
    closet door) once had *four*!  Some idiot took out the doors and
    replaced them with sheetrock, instead of plaster.  Stripping wallpaper
    off them was a b*tch, and steam shouldn't be used on it.  Before I knew
    what I was doing I had already gouged some of the sheetrock (while
    trying to remove the Kraft paper that I thought was wall paper or
    underlayment).  Needless to say, I did not finish the job, and it is
    waiting for me when I finish my taxes.
    
    Now, my experience may not be common.  Perhaps if the walls are
    properly prepared (with oil paint and sizing), sheetrock would
    not be a problem.
    
    As for what looks better, sheetrock or plaster ...
    
    Some of the ceilings in my house were redone with sheetrock, and one of
    them was my bedroom.  Every time I look at it, those joints drive me
    *crazy*, even though the ceiling has a textured sand paint on it.  I
    think sheetrock is fine for a tiny room (closet or bathroom), but I
    would *never* use it for a larger room.
    
    In my opinion, house done with sheetrock == starter home.  I 
    think it's fine if the whole house is low-end, but if your house
    is more expensive, sheetrock makes it look cheap.
    
    -tm
     

    I am also a bit confused about skimcoat.  A friend of mine who works
    part-time as a painter recommended that the horsehair-plaster-over-wood-
    lath walls I am stripping to paint be "skimcoated".  He explained
    that it's easy to do over such a surface using one of those large
    12"-wide blades and lots of *joing compound*.  From his instructions,
    it seemed that the skimcoat would not be 1/8" thick but would just
    barely be thick enough to cover the surface, while still filling
    in cracks and holes and leaving a uniform texture.  
    
    Has anyone actually DONE a skimcoat?  It did not sound like it would
    take that much skill, but perhaps that is because we would be working
    over plaster instead of blue or wallboard.
    
    Mark

    re: .19
    What you're talking about is not what is generally thought of as
    a "plaster skimcoat".  What you'd be doing is more "general filling
    in of all the little holes and dents."  A true paster skimcoat (in
    the generally accepted sense) is about 1/8" of plaster (not joint
    compound) over blueboard.
    
    However, what your painter friend describes works pretty well. 
    I did exactly that in my dining room before I painted it last
    year, and it came out tolerably well.  It's not as smooth as a 
    "real" plaster skimcoat by a professional, but I didn't want glass-
    smooth walls anway; after all, it's an old house!
    

    If the walls are in good condition you can skim them with joint
    compound. If after one coat there still alittle rough, scrape off
    all the ridges (trowel marks), and skim them again. You can get
    those walls like glass if you want to. You may also have to sand
    where necessary.
     

    I should have mentioned, if you want a new plastered look, use
    corner bead over the old corners. 

    Skim coating with joint compound works well for smoothing out old
    horsehair plaster walls.  It's especially good when you want to
    paint and the walls don't have the final finish coat of plaster
    on them.
    
    It takes LOTS of joint compound.  I did four room in my 1830's house
    this way and used 8 five gallon buckets.
    
    The trick to it is to remember that joint compound, unlike plaster,
    sets up very slowly and isn't workable until it firms up a bit.
    Make sure the underlying wall is solid.  Patch where needed, then
    apply the first coat generously in an area as wide as you can reach.
    
    When you get to the bottom, the top will have dried a bit.  Go back
    and smooth as needed.  Use a spray bottle to wet down those spots
    that have dried too much.  Don't be fussy at this point.  Just knock
    down the high spots and fill in the lows.  Checking the plane of
    the wall with a straight edge is helpful.  Continue around the room
    and let the first coat dry a day (longer if it's winter).  It'll
    still look rough.  When dry, use a wide blade to cut down any 
    prominent high spots.  This is more easily done when dry.
    
    Put on a second coat the same way but thinner and taking more care
    in the smoothing.  The smoothing works best when the compound is
    not quite dry.  Err on the dry side and use the spray bottle to
    wet down the areas that are too dry.
    
    If you're fussy, do a third coat.  Sand any irregularities with
    300-400 grit wet/dry and then apply LOTS of paint.  
    
    This is a cheap way to recover from old walls or incompetent
    sheetrocking but if I were starting from bare studs, I'd go with
    the real skim coat.  Don't skim coat over old plaster.  I have some
    and it looks awful.  It's difficult to control the thickness and
    it doesn't hold a feather edge the way joint compound will. 

    
    On "This Old House" (The california project) They showed a product
    which can be used to "bond" damaged plaster walls. It looks
    like fiberglass wallpaper, is applied like wallpaper, and can be
    painted. My local stores (NJ) don't have any idea what it is.
    Does anyone out there know?
    My situation is as follows, I have some very old, thick plaster
    and lathe walls that are scraped down clean, but in order to
    make the surface smooth and paintable, I would have to spackle
    sand almost the entire surface area of the walls.  This mystery
    product sounds like a solution. I'm open to any other suggestions.
    
    thanks
    pete
    hjuxb::lega
    

I can't help on the TOH material, but for a discussion of spackling over 
plaster walls, see topic 2193, especially .19 through .23.

    When I saw the show, it was my impression that the stuff produced
    a rough, textured surface on the walls - almost like burlap.  If
    you're looking for a smooth surface I don't believe that's the way
    you want to go.

    My wife and I argued about the paintability of this product. I said
    the same thing, the surface was too rough. She said that Bob said
    it made a smooth surface when painted. Well, we watched the rerun
    and sure enough, they say its a smooth surface when painted. It's
    hard to believe that a fiberglass mesh product applied with wallpaper
    type paste and smoothed out with a brush would be smooth. But in
    the show, the homeowner is painting his walls that had this material
    applied.???
    
    Tim
    

    I thought this stuff was more like a giant roll of fiberglass joint tape 
designed to be "skim coated" after being applied.  That is how you get the 
smooth surface.  On the last episode of TOH, I could see the stuff on all the 
walls.  So how expensive is this stuff? I would bet it was not cheap and was 
paid out of TOH budget not the homeowner.

Brian

    THANKS ALOT EVERYONE! I am definately going to get some glid-wall
    and when its up I will post my experience here.
    (this made my day)
    
    Through the wonders of vaxnotes technology I shall have wonderful
    walls!

    
    I finished redoing one room using Glid-wall and thought I would
    give a review.
    
    It is very easy to put up.  However, most of the seams DO show.
    I use a butt joint when I wallpaper, but this material does not
    slide very well when you are trying to position it.  A better techique
    may be to do "double-cutting" for the joints.
    
    So the joints show, the second "problem" is that the pressed fiberglass
    pattern does show through the paint.  It is not overwhelming, but
    also not what people expect when they look at a wall.
    
    I did cover the joints with joint compound, but then I had smooth
    areas covering the joints which contrasted with the texture of the
    fiberglass.
    
    On the positive side, it is pretty quick, does a very nice job of
    reinforcing weak, old plaster.  It would make an excellent base
    for wallpapering; I am sure it would stand up to steaming and scraping
    when it was time to repaper.
    
    I have some rental property that I am partially renovating.  I used it
    in one bathroom in which the pipes froze and sprayed water all over the
    walls.  The water then froze on the walls, creating cracks EVERYWHERE
    (every 2-3"!).  (The apartment was unoccupied at the time.)  I couldn't
    tape that many joints; I am not sure that a skim coat would resist
    cracking; the alternative is rip out the plaster/lath and put up new
    greenboard.  For this kind of situation, I am satisfied with the
    results and I will use it again in one room of another apartment which
    has weak plastered walls.
    
    I would also use it in my own house IF the final surface were wallpaper.
     

    
    Which is better for a bathroom ( e.g. which can stand water the
    best) Green board or Blue Board??  Blue board is for plaster. Could
    you joint it rather than plaster it if you were so inclined?? Say,
    if you thought you could afford plaster, hung the blue board, then
    decided that you were too poor and wanted to joint it yourself.
    
    Also, I've always run sheetrock perpendicular to the strapping.
    If a room is small enough to have no butt joints, how about running
    the sheetrock parralell to the strapping so the joints are supported
    every inch of the way????? Comments????

    Blue board and plaster is very water resistant for occasional exposure.
    According to my plumber, splashing or dousing of the surface is
    not a problem.  What you have to be careful of is long term exposure,
    such as water seeping through poorly grouted tile.
    
    BTW, just to provide another data point for cost estimates, I just
    had my addtion blueboarded and skimmed.  It has 4 bedrooms, 2
    bathrooms, storage, and a stairway.  If you count doorways and windows
    (the wallboarders don't seem to subtract anything for openings)
    the addition has about 4200 square feet of wall and ceiling.  About
    1100 square feet of floor space.
    
    Total cost for blueboard, hanging, and skimming was $4276, and that
    included smooth ceilings.  If I wanted rough (swirl) ceilings, it
    would have been $576 less or $3700 total.  4 days total to do it
    all.
    
    They did a beautiful job and it looks terrific.  The contractor
    was Preferred Interior Contractors (PIC) in Littleton, MA.
    
    BTW-It was something to see the plasterers use stilts for the ceilings.
    
    Bob  

    I am stripping some wallpaper off an addition to my house.  The
    walls are made of wallboard, and aren't as smooth as I would like,
    so I am thinking of having them skim coated.  Can you skim coat
    over any type of wallboard, or just blueboard?  How do you tell
    if it is blueboard (I think you're going to tell me its blue, but
    I have to ask)?   The addition is probably fairly old if this makes
    any difference on wallboard types.
    
    Al

    Actually, it is sort of gray-blue.  
    
    The surface of blueboard is specially designed to accept and hold
    a plaster skimcoat.  You can put some kind of chemical on regular
    wallboard so you can skimcoat it, but it's not quite as good.
    I don't know if you can do anything with wallboard that has been
    papered, because it's going to have paste and sizing and whatever
    on it and in it.  Offhand, I suspect that skimcoating wouldn't
    work very well in your case if you want plaster.
    What you might be able to do is put on a very thin coat of drywall
    joint compaound instead of plaster, but I'm not sure how well that
    would work.  It would bond to the surface, but it might be hard
    to get it really smooth over such a large area.
    
    Your best best is probably to ask a plasterer.

    WE have just had an addition built, finished with blueboard and
    skim coat. However, for some reason the inside of the closets were
    finished in rough rather than smooth. THese two closets are the
    only rough finished plaster in the house.
    
     WE want this mistake to be fixed and are receiving some push back
    from the contractor. Question: can a 1 month old rough skim coat
    be turned into a smooth surface? How? Will new plaster bond to the
    dry stuff?
    
    Thanks for your advice
    Lin
    

I'd think twice about changing the skim coat in the closet, not because of the
age (I just had a 10 year old swirl ceiling skim coated), but because the rough
finish is essentially done and won't need any further maintenance.  I would 
suspect another reason the contractor is pushing back is that I don't know if
I've ever heard of a smooth coat unless specified before hand.  The default for
closets is usually rough.  In fact, I've seen houses where they even spray the
textured stuff on the closet walls just to save the extra labor.

Now that I have smooth ceilings (and I DO love them), I have to face the shock
of having to paint them!   The regular ones aren't that bad, it's just the 16
footers that are intimidating me. Whether anyone realizes it or not, rough skim
coated ceiling do not need painting. 

-mar

    I used a product called Wield-A-Bond (sp) after removing paneling
    in my family room.  Behind the paneling was sheetrock.  It was not
    taped.  Just plain sheetrock.  Wield-A-Bond smells like Elmers-Glue
    and is difficult to apply with a brush.  I used a roller and it
    did not take too long.  The product really works well and I like
    having plastered walls.           

    
    A friend of mine lives in a Condominium which has ornate plaster moldings
    on the walls adjacent to the ceiling. Recently, some of the molding was
    damaged and I'd like to know if it's possible to repair plaster
    moldings?
    
    thanks.
    
    bob 

    Moldings are possible to repair, but the degree of difficulty is
    dependent upon the nature and extent of the damage. Is it a clean
    break, a gouge, a scratch, a broken tip,(?) a little more information
    may help some of the experts.

    
    The break was caused by a chisel driven through the wall from the other
    side. So the break is clean, but large. It's about 8" long and 3" wide
    and 1.5" deep (at it's deepest)
    
    bob.

    I can't offer much hope...
    
    You can try to make a casting of the pattern from some other place
    in the room, then make a replacement piece, and with great cleverness
    attach the new piece to the old plaster. But, from the experience I've
    had with such fancy dreams, you're better off hiring a professional
    plasterer or ignoring it.
    
    I once found a plasterer who helped restore some aging courthouse
    in Boston. At the time, he told me there weren't many plasterers left
    who understood the craft of ornamental plaster. A dying art, and
    considering the man's age and how long ago it was that I met him, I
    suspect he's dead now, too.
    
    

    
    that's what I suspected. Actually, I have a large chunk of what came 
    down. Perhaps I'll try re-attaching it.

Old House Journal had an article on repairing ornamental plaster and I 
believe I saw that article in a book they published years back.

    Is the plaster detail smooth?, by smooth I mean that it it was made
    by running a template across it? If it is then make a 1/4" plywood
    pattern from the piece that fell, carefully drill a couple of holes
    in the piece and attatch it to the lath or strapping with countersunk
    sheetrock screws. Then take plaster fill in the voids and run your
    template across the wall, filling in the voids.
    
    	The template should be cut so that it rests on the wall and
    ceiling as shown: (lousy vt100 graphics to follow)
    
    
                                             /plaster
                               ceiling      /
    		-----------------------------+ 
                                     |    \  |     
                                     |     ) |   wall
                                     |     ( |
                                     |      \|
                                    /|       |
                                   / +-------|
                           template          |
                                             |
                                             |

    
    	You should be able to do a good job filling in the voids
    with the template. If it has an inlaid pattern in it the procedure
    is somewhat the same, except you adjust the template to the fill
    in where the inlay is to be then you go back afterwards and carve
    out the detail. 
    
    
    
    							Good luck,
    
    								Chris

    
    We glued the moldign peices into place and it looks fine. thanks.

    Same note, different question...
    There was mention of the homeowner installing blueboard, and the
    plasterer doing the skim coating (w/o mention of the plasterer
    objecting to not doing the whole job). I've heard stories where
    drywallers won't touch a job that was half-started - reason being
    they wind up fixing most of the DIY'ers mistakes.
    The question is: Is there more room for error when hanging blueboard
    about to be skimcoated, than drywall about to be finished?
    Also, how do the prices compare between a plasterer doing a skim
    coat job and a sheetrocker doing the whole job (beginning to end)
    with drywall?
    
    John

    John,
    
    	I don't know for a fact if there's more room for error with
    blueboard, and that's why the plasterer would finish, but reason says
    that there is a LOT more room for error.  We plaster-boarded 2 rooms
    and a hall, and the walls were perfectly smooth, the joints were great
    and everything looked wonderful - till we painted.  If we had it to do
    over again, we'd probably go blue-board and skim-coat PROFESSIONALLY. 
    I'm totally convinced that unless you have a lot of experience and you
    can get the plasterboard absolutley PERFECT, and come back after it's
    all settled and dried out a few months later and it's STILL perfect -
    that your walls aren't going to look too great.  We can really notice
    the seams, and I won't mention how any hours we spent taping and
    sanding and checkingthat they're flat (and cursing and starting over
    (-: )  They REALLY did look great before the paint and some time.
    	Anyway .... assuming that plasterboard is considerable cheaper than
    blueboard (I don't know), if you're going to hang wallpaper, you can
    probably get away with it DIY.  Otherwise, if you plan to paint AND have
    light in the room, I'd go blue-board and have the skim done by someone
    experienced.
    ....and you should see the neighbor's house who had a 'Ahhh, that's
    close enough!' style of DIY (-:

Sorry, .11, this is a comment on the reply .12 (maybe some encouragement).

The most perfectly smooth joint will *always* be obvious under certain lighting
conditions.  The reason is that you can get the mud smoother and harder than
the paper covering on the rest of the board.  The only way to get a consistent
smooth, hard surface is to skim-coat the entire wall.

    I'm contemplating the same as .11.  I would guess that hanging
    blueboard is a "little" easier than sheetrock, but I really don't
    know.  
    
    From what I've heard, the plasterers are more concerned with the
    direction than anything else.  That is, some prefer horizontal to
    vertical, some want staggered joints when horizontal is done, etc.
    
    So, is that the real reason some won't take on just the plaster,
    or is there more to it?  (Forget the "I want the whole job because
    I want the whole pay" part, I'm just looking for the technical problem)
    
    Lee

    What go me on to this is that the wife and I have been looking
    at open houses, new construction, etc, and we came upon a house
    just at the point where all the walls were blue boarded, but not
    all the rooms had been skim coated (Saddle Hill dev. in Amherst
    NH, (off RT 101) lot 4).
    Anyway, the hung blueboard didn't give me the impression that
    it was something only a pro could do. The skim coated walls,
    however, were incredible. Super smooth and flawless.
    So if a DIYer could get the board up at cost, and a pro do
    the coating for (hopefully) less than a pro drywall job
    (which doesn't look as nice), it makes sense to me.
    
    John

    re .13
>The only way to get a consistent
>smooth, hard surface is to skim-coat the entire wall.
    I'm a bit confused. Isn't skim coating *always* done to the entire
    wall? With any thickness, how could it done partially? That's the
    reason I felt the board could be hung by a DIY. If the whole job
    is going to be coated with 1/8" or so of plaster, all the little
    inconsistancies will be covered up (as opposed to drywall).
    
    John

    Having worked with some pros on this stuff...
    
    Some plasterers insist on hanging the board themselves, some don't.
    The ones that work alone often insist that the board be hung in
    advance.  Those that work in crews usually offer only a package
    deal including the board and the goop.  This not only assures that
    the board is up the way they want it, but also improves the profit
    margin on the job - a good crew can hang board in almost unbelievably
    fast time.
    
    Tolerances and techniques for hanging blueboard are the same as
    for greyboard as far as I know.   
    
    Another thing you will find is that the people in this trade tend
    to work fixed price only.  Unfortunately this means that the less
    experienced will in general not work longer to get the same quality
    job as someone who's been around - they'll go just as fast and you
    get a lower quality job.  We had a client once who was very fussy
    and we could not find a plasterer who would agree to work T&M for
    a longer time to get a perfect job, even though this meant MORE
    net income!

    A weird trade.  I have lots of other stories for some other time.

    First let me say all sheetrockers/plasterers have their own
    preferences. My personal opinion is that "some" plasterers, and
    sheetrockes prefer to hang their own do to the fact that most 
    people dont realize how to correctly hang the stuff. Eg:  *ALL*
    screws need to be recessed without breaking the paper surface  (nice to
    have a good screwgun for this / adjustable depth). The frequency of
    screws varies for sheets on ceiling vs. walls. And staggering as well
    as ending up w/ the the least amount seams/joints, are some of the
    obvious considorations. Hanging sheetrock IMHO is a DIY job, with 
    some common sense, a little knoweledge, and the correct tools.
    
    Also re. a few back. If a sheetrock joint is feathered out a good 24
    inches, and a coat or 2 of primer are applied to the walls proir to
    the finish coats of paint, seems now have the same finish as the board,
    the primer. Just put on 2 coats finish paint.
    That is the 2 coats of primer.

The problem that was brought out by our plasterers was that if the board isn't
hung quick enough it sits and gets wavy and you can't plaster it so it looks
right. (I think this was because our general contractor had the framers hang
the board and they took their time)

How you store the board before it's hung can make a difference in the finished
appearance

    A few suggestions or comments:
    
    o Hanging blueboard vs sheetrock (gypsum board) are the sma e process.
      Your accurace at where edges meet is somewhat compensated for
      fiberglass seam tape used.  The real fussy spots are around outlet
      and switch boxes.  This is one of the reasons prof. crews use
      the router type cutter for "zipping" around cut outs.  They actually
      hang the board "loose" first having marked the fixture location,
      then they make a "plunge" cut, find an edge to the receptacle
      box and then "trace" around it with thwe router.
    
    o Hang the ceiling boards first, staggering the joints so that you
      don't haver one continuous seam from one side of the room to the
      other.  
    
    o Hange wall boards next so they butt in tight to the ceiling; this
      eliminates give at the ceiling edges and minimizes joint cracking
      later on.
    
    There is only about $.50/sheet difference between blue board and
    standard sheet rock.
    
    FWIW, I ended up skim coating an etire room (walls only) using
    regular sheet rock, fiberglass mesh seam tape, and joint compound.
    I was so fussy working the seams initially that I found it easier
    to skim coat a few sections at a time.  The joint compound gives
    you plenty of "working" time......whereas plaster sets up quicker.
    
    The only disadvantage to joint compound vs. plaster is that the
    joint compound is softer; for instance you can easily make a gouge
    in it with your finger-nail whereas plaster is much harder and
    damage resistant.
    
    Jonathan
      

re: .16  John
in re: .13  my "skim-coat the entire wall"

Sorry I confused you.  Yes, skim-coating means the entire wall.  My comments
were directed towards the noter who complained that her "perfect" seams were
depressingly visible after the paint job.  I think the reason for that is the
seams (even professionally-done) are that much smoother/harder than the drywall
paper.  And the only way to get "perfectly" smooth walls is to skim-coat.

I'll agree, too, that hanging the blueboard can be an economically efficient
DIY job.

Jon

Two years later, but still useful for somebody, I hope:

I'm taking an evening course in "drywall and plaster" at Assabet Valley 
Voc/Tech HS in Marlboro, Mass., and we covered this very question last night.
The instructor brought in a gallon of Bond-All (although he called it Weld-a-
Bond, another case of a popular brand name becoming the generic trade name).
It's used to prepare surfaces other than blueboard (as well as blueboard whose
special properties have been destroyed by prolonged exposure to sunlight) to 
accept veneer plaster (a/k/a skim coat plaster).

Bond-All brand is made in Arlington, Mass.  A gallon costs $17, covers 700
sq ft.  It's water-based, smells like regular Elmer's Glue.  You apply it
with a regular roller, let it set at least 45 minutes (it's OK to let it set
for several months if you like), and apply the plaster.

The plaster sets up more slowly than with blueboard, because instead of 
blueboard sucking up moisture there's this mostly-impermeable adhesive
membrane behind it, and Lord knows what underneath that.  The bottle 
claims it's good for adhering plaster or cement to drywall (with or without
joint compound), wood, painted surfaces, and a bunch of other things that I
can't remember.

We tried it over a whole wall of drywall, over a small drywall patch (the
instructor likes to throw his hammer through our finished walls to give us
practice in patching holes), and over part of a painted cinderblock wall.
Worked well on the first two; on the cinderblocks, it wasn't dry by the end
of class, so I'll have to report those results next week!

    I just put this in another note, but I'll add it here.
    
    Just received an estimate of $33 per sheet, for blueboard, hanging
    and skimcoating.  I've already strapped the ceilings, this guy will
    do the rest.  The job is about 40 sheets.  Sound good?
    
    Lee

    How can they quote per sheet when the size of a sheet varies?  The pros
    I've seen use 4x10 and 4x12 sheets shere possible to minimize the
    number of joints.
    
    Am I missing something here?
    

    Jim, the sheets he quoted on are 4' X 12', $33 bucks for material
    and labor.
    
    The addition is 16' X 32', with one 16' interior wall, and 2 8'
    ers.  There's a 6 ft patio door, 5 windows, and a breakthru to the
    original house that is 36" wide, and a half-wall 48" wide.
    
    He figured 39 sheets, which is 1872 sq/ft.  I roughly figured on
    1850.  Course, I didn't figure on the skylights being finished-in,
    and a 2' X 12' closet that needs finishing in and out.  He did,
    so I would say we were in the "ballpark" on footage.
    
    What I don't know is if the price is good per sheet?
    
    Lee

    
    .69/SF (4x12 sheets) is very cheap, especially to the general public,
    that is even low for what contractors pay for plastering on new home
    construction.
    
    If you can get several good recommendations from satisfied customers
    that have used him, I would say "go for it".
    
    Jonathan

This is indeed a cheap price.  I paid 75 cents/square foot AFTER I hang all the
blueboard.  However the job came out superb, so put me down as a satisfied
customer even though I paid a lot.

-mark

    In those cases where people have hung their own blueboard, has the
    plasterer put up the corner beads and such, or have you done that too?
    

    All the prep I did was to hang the blue-board.  And in the instance
    of our basement rec room, since you would be at eye level with the
    ceiling when coming down the stairs I was very finicky about shimming
    the strapping to level the ceiling before hanging the blueboard.
                         
    The plaster took care of corner beads and taping the seams with
    fiberglass mesh tape.
    
    Most pro's seem to use 4X12 boards in order to minimize seams.  Walls
    boards are typically mounted horizontally, meaning the 12' edge is
    parallel to the floor/ceiling.
    
    For large board orders, especially if they are for a second level,
    it is worth using a drywall goods supplier that will deliver using
    a "crane" truck.  They will lift the delivered boards through
    a window opening, if you have one large enough.  This saves alot of
    back-breaking work.
    

    I have a slightly bigger problem with my plaster coveing. I live in a
    victorian terraced house in Reading , England. Originally there was an
    entrance hall with a door on the right leading into the lounge. But at
    some stage, the wall between the entrance hall and the lounge has been
    removed to make the lounge bigger. In the lounge was a large fancy
    ceiling plaster coveing.....and in the entrance hall was a smaller size
    coveing. Now that the room has been enlarged there is a gap in the
    coveing, on two sides of the room, where the entrance hall wall used to
    be. As the entrance hall coveing is a different size to the original
    lounge coveing; it's not just a question of filling in the gap where the
    wall used to be. What I would like to do is to rip down the entrance
    hall coveing and replace it with coveing the same fancy shape as is in
    the lounge. The problem is how to go about reproducing the original
    shaped coveing that appears in the lounge. I would need to reproduce
    about twenty feet of it. The alternative is to rip down all the coveing
    and put up new stuff.....but I'd prefer to try and save the original
    victorian coveing, if at all possible. 

By "coveing", you're referring to the molding (or "moulding") that covers the
joint between wall and ceiling?  If so, that's called a "cornice molding" in the
U.S.  Come to think of it, one style of cornice molding is called "cove", so I 
think we're on the right track here.

Plaster moldings were typically "run", i.e. make a metal negative of the profile
you want and slide it over wet plaster to form the profile.  The moldings could
be run in place, or on the bench and nailed in place after they dried.  For more
complex moldings, the rough profile was run, and then finer details were added
by shaping the drying plaster and carving the dry plaster.  This step is a fine
art, and (at least in the U.S.) people who are capable of it command high fees
if you can find them at all.

You might look for a wood molding that approximates the existing molding.  
Sometimes you can build up the desired profile by combining several stock 
moldings.

Several companies in the U.S are making fancy, historical molding shapes in
fiberglass and other plastic-like substances.  Looks just like the real thing
when painted.

If you can't match your existing moldings close enough, you may decide to tear
out the molding that has the gap in it and replace that entire section (so the
repair won't be so obvious), but leave the original molding on the other walls.

    Thanks for your comments David.....yes, "cornice moulding" is what I'm
    referring to in my note 3434.8 . Removing the whole section of
    moulding/coveing with the gap in it would be OK if I could find a very
    similar one to the existing coveing to replace it. I was wondering how
    difficult or easy it would be to manufacture my own section of coveing
    on a bench...rather than on the actual ceiling....where a tendancy for
    the wet plaster to fall on my head might occur. Has anyone ever tried
    this....with any success ? I had a professional plasterer come and look
    at the job, and he gave me a quote of 150 pounds sterling (approx $225
    U.S.) to have a mould made; followed by an additional $38 per 10 foot
    section that was produced....and I would need approximately 25 feet of
    the coveing to do the job. I asked him to go ahead with the job, but
    I've not heard from him since!!.....so I get the impression he doesn't
    want the work. So it looks like I'll have to do the job myself.
    
    I was a bit worried about removing the coveing incase it brought down large
    chunks of the ceiling plaster with it.....but as the smaller entrance
    hall coveing has got to come down anyway ; I might as well remove that
    first....and see if it comes down easily....and if it does, then I might as
    well remove the whole lot and put up new stuff. The ceiling is old
    fashioned lathe and plaster ,by the way.
    
    Before I do this....any other comments or suggestions would be
    gratefully accepted.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Martin

Everything I know about this subject is what I read in the Old-House Journal 
article mentioned in .5 (without a reference to a specific issue, unfortunately;
maybe I'll post a reference here sometime).  I have never worked on ornamental
plaster, nor even examined any of it closely.  Please keep that in mind as you
read the following remarks.

The price you were quoted sounds good, maybe even a bit low, for work of this
nature.  You should redouble your efforts to track him down, if only to ask him
whether he knows anyone else in the trade that might be more eager for your
business than he seems to be.

The OHJ article contains a fair amount of DIY information, as I recall.  Their
DIY instructions are typically neither for the beginner nor for the faint of
heart, but they usually give you enough theory so you can understand why you're
screwing up.  If it's like other plastering work, it takes experimentation and
practice to develop the necessary technique, especially timing things right.

I would think that the ease of destruction of a plaster ceiling without wrecking
its plaster molding (or vice versa) would depend a lot on whether the molding
was run on the bench or in place.  A bench-run molding could probably be removed
intact, using much the same technique as with wood molding.  A run-in-place
molding would probably be quite intimately interlocked with the ceiling, and 
only tedious cutting would have a chance of separating them cleanly.

    re <.8>
    
    Martin. If both covings are nice, albeit different in size, why not
    leave them both there and get a decoractive moulding (boss?) to fill
    the gap. Might be less messy.
    
    I might still have some catalogues from when I was looking at
    decorative plasterwork, I'll look them out. One of the companies was
    called Aristocast.
    
    dick
    
    (six cubes away and still communicating via New England)

RE .2  An evening course in "drywall and plaster" sounds like a great idea!
       Would any one know of these courses being offered in the near future?
       I prefer southern NH, but will be willing to travel to MA if that's
       the only place they are offered.


	Thanks,
	Denis

    
    Has anyone ever tried Skim-coating a horse-hair plaster wall using 
    joint compound.  This was suggested by my plasterer to prep the walls
    for wallpapering.  He mentioned that I should thin the joint compound 
    prior to performing the skim coat, then to sand it lightley after
    it dried.  
    
    Any ideas on how much joint compound I'll need to do approximately 400
    square feet?  Also, what should be used to thin the joint compound 
    (I assume water?)?
    
    /Jeff

RE: .29
Well, the previouse owners of our house did something like this, but
they did it *over* the existing wall paper.  It sure was a b*tch to
get it all off.  Once we got down to the horse hair plaster, we had
a plasterer come in and patch.  I would vote for plaster patching probably
because of our bad experience with the joint compound "skim" coat.
...And we didn't have to sand, even for painting.

-Amy

As I recall, I did a small bedroom, (10x12) walls and ceiling with half of
a 50lb bucket of drywall compound.  I didn't bother to thin it.  Didn't 
think to thin it, but then again didn't need to.  I did make one mistake.
I just covered over a crack in the plaster that I should have taped as it
opened right up.  I patched large holes in the plaster (larger than a softball)
with durabond patching plaster and then skimmed right over that.  That came
out beautifully.  That was two winters ago and except for the one crack,
it looks very nice now.  

-Bob

    We did the ceilings in our house with joint compound. Mixing ratio
    my builder recommended was 1 small dixie cup of water to 1/2 of a
    5 gal bucket of joint compound. Stir until it looks like wipped cream.
    Apply no thicker then 1/8". We were making patterns with a floor brush.
    and needed some depth you may not need to go as thick. 
    
    One thing you may want  to do is make sure your walls are clean before
    applying. If you ever plan on removing the wallpaper you may want to 
    put a coat of primer or paint on before you wall paper.
    
    Don 

    I did this over horsehair plaster walls that were relatively sound and
    even used ceiling buttons to secure the underlying plaster where it was
    a little unsound.  The first room I did I used j.c. straight.  In
    subsequent rooms I thinned it and it worked much easier.  This is, in
    general, a very messy job primarily due to dust from sanding.  Steps I
    used are as follows:
     
    1 Go over the whole room looking for loose stuff.
      Secure what needs it.
    
    2 Decide how to handle corners...eg with drywall corners? or what.  I
      used drywall corners for the outees and nothing for the inner corners.
    
    3 Put on the base coat relatively thin.  when dry sand level.
    
    4 Put on final coat thin and then you will sand smooth.
    
    5 Prime with two coats alkyd primer to serve as a vapor barrier and
      prevent water attacking the j.c.
    
    
    Note:  Practice really does speed this up.  My first room took 3
    weekends.  I think I could due a room in 8 hours now not including
    drying time.
    
    Note2:  Wise to list wooden trim up so the trowel can get slightly
    underneath and then when all done hammer trim back down for that neatly
    finished look.
    
    note3:  Watch for bubbles that show up only when you paint cause they
    get filled with dust when you sand and the dust comes out when the
    roller passes over.
    
    note4:  I used a cement trowel (8.00 or so from Spags).  Joint
    compounding tools stink for this kind of work.
    
    Good Luck
    Ken

    Smoothing between coats cna be accomplished with a sponge and a bucket
    of water. With practice, I have found this method to be easier and less
    messy than sanding. The extra jc that is being removed is wet and
    trapped in the sponge, then you rinse the sponge and the jc is now in
    the bucket...no dust.
    
    Once the jc is painted, this method will not work. 

    I've also done similar repairs to my horsehair plaster walls.  I didn't
    think to thin the joint compound, but now that I look back, it might
    have made the job easier.  
    
    I prepped the walls by widening cracks to 1/4 - 3/8" -- so that the
    compound could adhere to the exposed lath. I was told that if I did not 
    do this, the cracks would return.  I used a toothbrush to remove loose 
    plaster from the cracks. If the plaster was 'floating' on either side of 
    the crack, I screwed in buttons (temporarily) 2" away from the crack. 
    
    My first course of joint compound application was to the cracks and
    deep holes.  I used a water spray bottle to dampen the surrounding 
    plaster and exposed lath. I believe this helps with adhesion. I used a
    good plasterers trowel (Marshalltown from Spag's) to squish jc into the
    cracks and up against the lath. Cheap trowels flex too much and you end
    up putting your energy into bending the trowel. I learned this after
    compounding the first room.    
    
    The compound in the cracks will dry and shrink, and you will need 2 or
    3 repeat applications to build up the compound level with the wall. Remove
    any buttons once you feel that the compound in the crack is securely 
    holding the adjacent plaster. (I've left buttons in, and ended up
    building a little compound hill to hide them, but they showed anyway.) 
    
    When I worked, I kept a bare bulb lamp close at hand. By holding it
    close to the wall I located roughness or holes by the shadows they
    created. I could also inspect my work to see how smooth it was.  The
    lamp is a great device for getting immediate feedback on your work. 
    
    When skim coating large surfaces, it's best to use as little compound
    as possible. Be sure to dampen the surface with a spray of water -- a
    dry wall will take the water out of the compound, and make it difficult
    to work, and leave a rough finished surface. Use one pass of the trowel 
    to push the compound into the surface; another pass to scrape it off -- 
    right down to the plaster surface. There should be no real buildup of
    compound on top of the plaster.  Again, the lightbulb will let you
    know how well you're doing.
    
    A damp sponge works fine for smoothing, but you'll find that it leaves
    a slight texture.  Light sanding can remove this. 
    
    Regardless of whether I planned to paint or wallpaper the surface, I've 
    always primed my walls with an alkyd-based primer.  This seems to
    'toughen' the wall surface; it also, serves as an effective vapor
    barrier.
    
    
    Joe
    

Hi,

I'm helping a friend attach a free-standing railing to a stairwell wall. I
want to be sure it's solidly bolted, so will make sure I find the wall
studs (I have one of those "stud finders"). I looked in my yellow Reader's
Digest book of home repairs, but they don't tell you how to actually
install a railing.

My questions are:

    
1. How should I attach the railing once I determine where the
   studs are located?  Since walls aren't straight, my guess would be to
   attach the railing hardware to the wall first and then lay the
   railing on top of the attached wall hardware and then mark where
   the screws should go into the railing?  But, how do I know if the
   railing will "lie" down perfectly flat on the installed hardware?

2. Is there some kind of a diagonal plumb line I can make to know where to
   bolt the hardware to the wall?  How can I be sure the line is directly
   diagonal (parallel to the stairwell baseboard).

3. What's a good height for the railing?

2. What intervals should I bolt the hardware at?  The railing is about 12
   feet long.
    
    
    Thanks a lot.

Diana
    

    
    The hardware I'm familiar with has a pivot point that attaches to the
    bottom of the rail with a strap. You screw the support into a stud
    in the vertical position, keeping the pivot point at a height where
    you want the bottom of the railing to be. Then position the rail, and
    attach the straps around the pivots and onto the rail. (If you have
    something else that must be mounted at the same angle as the rail,
    paralleling the baseboard will work nicely.)
    
    For the rail height: stand on a step a few down from the top (or a few
    up from the bottom). Hold your hand out at your side, about hip height,
    palm down. Measure the distance vertically from your palm to the
    baseboard, and subtract the thickness of the rail. Once you determine
    where the studs are, measure this distance vertically from the baseboard
    up the stud and use it to position the top of each support. (Note 1: make
    sure your hand is right at your side, not in front or behind you.)
    (Note 2: if you're an NBA center, consider having someone else do the
    measuring.)
    
    For 12', I'd use three supports: a foot or two from each end, and in the
    middle. For perfect alignment, measure off and mount the two end supports,
    then sight between them to position the third.
    

    Re handrail height - this is frequently specified in the local
    building codes.  There IS a standard range of heights, measured
    from the tip (nose) of a stair tread - somewhere in the 30"-34"
    range, I believe, but ask your building inspector.  

>...but ask your building inspector.  
It's been my practice to _never_ ask the building inspector anything other
that "when are you going to be here?"

As far as finding the correct height for something, I just grab a tape
measure and go find some other examples of whatever it is. If it looks
and feels right, as in the case of a handrail, then it probably is.

To install what you've described, I'd rubberband the brackets to the rail,
hold it in place, mark the holes. Mount to the wall first then attach the
rail. As for it's being perfectly straight, don't worry. A little off on
one mount and the rail will bend to compensate.


Mickey.

    I am looking for suggestions on how to mount a tea cup rack into 
    a plaster (c. 1910) wall without cracking the plaster.  Has anyone 
    done similar things?  I was thinking of drilling holes and using 
    the plastic anchors and then screws.  If anyone has any
    suggestions/hints I would appreciate it.
    
    Thanks,
    Bob

    You can try putting masking tape over where the holes go and drilling
    through that - helps to prevent cracking around the holes, but it still
    may happen.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    If by "plastic anchors" you mean the ones that just go straight into
    the wall, I would say don't do it.  I would use the plastic type anchors 
    that have "wings" that expand behind the lath.  

Take a look at note 1122.  It's about fastening to sheetrock, but there isn't
that much difference except that plaster-on-lath is stronger.  I've used
plastic anchors and toggle bolts, depending on the weight to be supported.  

    Your house is old enough so it will have wood lath.  I assume a teacup
    rack isn't *that* heavy, so I'd probably use long screws (2"?) that
    would be assured of going through the rack, the plaster, and the lath,
    and just try to be sure I hit the centter of a lath. I'm not entirely sure
    how I'd go about being sure I hit the center of a lath though.... ;-)

    
    The lath is fairly closely spaced behind the horsehair plaster of the
    walls in my apartment.  If it's not *heavy*, I don't worry about trying
    to find a stud (or studs).  I put a small piece of masking tape where I
    want to put the screw and then drill.  It won't crack or crumble much,
    if the walls are in good shape.  And if it does, you won't be able to
    see it.  If you're worried about later, when you want to take the rack
    down, well, that's what patching compound is for!   
    
    Cq

    
    
    What is "corner bead" as mentioned in note 2193.22?  It sounds like it
    might be what I need to smooth out the corners in my living room.  I've
    removed the 40-year-old wallpaper and now have 100-year-old never
    painted palster walls that are in very good condition except for the
    corners.
    
    Which brings me to my next question if "corner bead" is not what I
    should use...is there a special tool I should look for to spread
    spackle in the corners?
    
    Thanks
    k
    

    
    Corner bead is a metal form used to shape outside corners. It's bent at a
    slightly-more-acute-than-90 degree angle, so that when you fasten it
    over a rough corner, it raises the corner slightly, with a nice smooth
    metal edge at the high point. You then fill in on both sides with joint
    compound or plaster.
    
    You're probably talking about inside corners. To smooth those, sand
    both sides smooth, then apply joint compound into the corner and smooth
    with a corner trowel. A corner trowel has two sides joined at a
    slightly-more-obtuse-than-90 degree angle, so that when you strike off
    the joint compound in the corner, it will leave a precise corner and
    feather both sides fairly well.
    

    I would suggest that the corners be taped - paper or fiberglass - not
    just spackled. I think just spackling will lead to eventual cracks. 

    
    Good point. I strongly recommend the self-adhesive fiberglas tape.
    
    

    
    Is it possible to make the tape smooth?  I want to paint rather than
    paper the wall.  There are a couple of small crumbling spots (eye level
    of course).  I've read about taking care of that.  Should I fill in the
    crumbling places before working with the tape or does using the tape
    mean I don't nead to fill in the cracks
    
    Thank you.
    
    k
    
    

    
    The tape disappears under the joint compound.
    
    o  clean up corner; make sure there are no high spots
    
    o  apply mesh tape, press into corner
    
    o  work joint compound into corner with 3-4" compound knife; compound
       should be fairly heavy at juncture, feathered out to 3" (or a little
       less than corner trowel will reach) on each side
    
    o  strike off with corner trowel, removing excess compound
    
    o  shrinkage crack will likely appear at juncture; apply second coat
       of compound after 24 hrs (same procedure, just use less compound)
    
    See note 1111.76 for pointers to a wealth of information on taping.
    

    And to get to the earlier question ... yes, there is a special corner
    trowel. It looks like..........a corner. Imagine a trowel with its
    blede bent to a 90 degree angle. If you are doing a bunch of corners,
    go buy one. If one corner, you can get by with a regular spackling
    knife. In fact, the guys that just did my family room used nothing but
    straight knives. Guess these fancy tools are just for us amateurs.

  I am looking at a house that has the horse-hair plaster over lathe, and
wallpaper over that in most rooms.  All the walls and ceilings are discolored
in the pattern of the lathe.  This is in the upstairs unit of a 2-family, I'm
seeing the downstairs tonight.  Could this be the way grime accumulated, or is
the lathe discoloring and bleeding through the plaster?  Could it be a moisture
problem?  The house has been vinyl-sided, but I don't know if there was a vapor
barrier  or insulation put on under it.
	Linda

    It's probably due to waviness in the walls and the way the dirt has
    accumulated.  I suppose it could be due to moisture (somehow) if it 
    appears only on the outside walls.  (n.b. the upstairs ceiling may
    be equivalent to an "outside wall" if the other side is an unheated
    attic space.)  If it's also on the inside walls (partitions between
    rooms) then I don't see how it could be due to any moisture problems.
    

  Steve,
    Thanks, I didn't think about the fact that moisture would only be a
  problem on the outside walls.  The discoloration is on inner walls too.
  	Linda
	(who has been looking at a lot of old houses lately)

You see that a lot on old walls that haven't been painted.  The part of
the plaster over the lath just "sticks up" a tiny little bit more than the
part of the plaster over the gap.  Dust falls straight down if it can.  Over
the years, the pattern emerges.

RE:  <<< Note 1468.7 by QUILLA::STINSON ""Linda Saisi Stinson...DTN 296-5796"" >>>

>All the walls and ceilings are discolored
>in the pattern of the lathe. 

I've noticed this in old houses I've been in.  My hypothesis is this:
The lathing creates a slight insulating affect that creates a temperature
differential between the plaster over the lath and the plaster in the
space between.  This temperature difference results in slight air currents
over the wall that drag small air borne particals over the surface and
in the pattern of the lathe.

It seems I've noticed this with uninsulated ceilings and walls.  Is this
hypthesis nuts?

Brian

    re .11
    
    I've seen that explanation (about temp differences) in several places,
    one by Ian Evans, a noted restoration architect in Australia. He also
    added that there are moisture differences as well - the laths stop the
    back of the plaster drying out as quickly as the spaces, so the dust as
    well as being attracted to the laths by the air currents, sticks there
    because of the additional moisture. As its a humidity driven thing, it
    doesn't much matter whether its an inside or outside wall.
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    Have a similar effect in my house.....plaster over lathe. Steve W. is
    correct.
    
    
    Marc H.

    Have a new question. I'm fixing up a room in my house with the "horse
    hair plaster over lath".....some small wall sections have lost their
    "key" and are loose. Is there a fix beside the usual remove and
    replaster approach?
    
    
    Marc H.

   Well whatever the cause, the marks are just accumulated grime since
they washed off (I did a test spot).  I had thought they were on walls and
ceilings, but looking a second time it was primarily ceilings.  The problem
was worse directly over radiators.  The attic is finished, so the temperature
differential isn't that great, but over time it may have an effect.
	Linda

re: >Note 1468.12              horse hair plaster/wallpaper                  12 of 12
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I've seen that explanation (about temp differences) in several places,
>one by Ian Evans, a noted restoration architect in Australia. He also
>added that there are moisture differences as well - the laths stop the
>back of the plaster drying out as quickly as the spaces, so the dust as
>well as being attracted to the laths by the air currents, sticks there
>because of the additional moisture. As its a humidity driven thing, it
>doesn't much matter whether its an inside or outside wall.

Maybe its not nuts. It does anwer one of my puzzle questions, though,
and affords an outlet for another plastering technique I have seen.

First: I have seen this effect on my ceilings, but not some my walls.

Part of my old house has horizontal wide plank walls, and another has
plaster walls; and this puzzled me why the two variations in one house. The
answer to this, is that the bare wide plank wood walls were never plastered,
but the upstairs plastered walls were wide plank walls which had been plastered
over.

Some of the rooms had closets, with lathe and plaster walls, but I think these
were added long after the building was built, when lathe and plaster became
popular or affordable.

Again later, when a new center chimney was added, another genearation of 
plaster and lathe was added (portland plaster), instead of horsehair.

In the base note, im my opinion, it is not likely water damage. Water Damage
discoloration forms a 'wet pattern' or dark, flow like streaks on the plaster;
in the extreme case the dampness will soften the plaster, and it literally 
winds up on the floor because the keys become soft .. unless its Portland 
Plaster .. so named due to the content of Portland Cement in it .. heavy and
rugged. Arsenic was also used in some old plasters as a binding agent. Its easy
to tell if it contains arseninc from the sweet taste (so I  am told). If 
small children are to be present, I would definately get a reading on the
wisdom of this, and consider alternatives, or whatever the appropriate actions
might be.


Bob

>I'm fixing up a room in my house with the "horse hair plaster over
>lath".....some small wall sections have lost their "key" and are loose. Is
>there a fix beside the usual remove and replaster approach?

     My observation is that whenever you try to take out a small section, 
what ever is next to it gets loose, and when you take that out, whats 
next to it gets loose, and you end up either ...

     1)  using plaster 'buttons' which are a few inches in diameter are
designed to anchor to the lath and hold the plaster in.  

     2)  gutting the whole room and putting in blueboard and skimcoat (;-)
If you do the gutting yourself, it takes about the same amount of time as 
trying to prep the old walls to look acceptable for painting.

    RE: .14
    
    There are lots of techniques to do this, but some are pretty tricky.
    
    If you have access to the back of the wall (ie can see/reach the laths)
    the easiest way is to break off the loose keys, wire brush the laths
    and plaster to get them really clean, vacuum to get the dust off and
    then lay a coat of 50/50 Plaster of Paris and lime putty - effectively,
    plastering both sides of the laths. Provided the laths are sound this
    works well - I did this on some of my ground floor ceilings when
    replacing the upstairs floor boards.  Oh, don't forget to put a pad in
    place to hold the plaster to the wall while doing this.
    
    For small areas, another successful method is to drill holes centred
    over the laths to just deeper than the plaster (ie, try not to go all
    the way through the laths). Then with a thin hose pour a four to 1 mix
    of water:Cemstik through the holes. It runs down between the plaster
    and the laths and when dry holds the plaster in place. This also works
    for plastered brickwork. 3 years so far, and still hanging on - keeping
    my fingers crossed!
    
    The holes need to be drilled every six inches or so along the length of
    the laths. If its a ceiling, you can drill a big hole and flood the
    to This also works well. After putting in the mix, pad the plaster back
    against the laths until the mix dries (24 hours).
    
    Another method is to drill through the plaster and laths and then using
    2mm by 15 mm (or 20mm) flathead screws with 10mm washers recessed
    approximately 3 mm into the plaster. Needs to be done on 100mm to 150
    mm square centres. This didn't work so well for me - the plaster
    cracked between screw supports in a number of cases.
    
    After 5 years of this (and repairing/patching nearly 2000 square metres
    of walls and ceilings) I have become a much better plasterer ;>) - so now
    I just pull it out and replaster - just as quick. The only rooms I
    still do like this are the lounge and dining rooms, which have the
    original hand run in place cornices and ceiling roses. In the other
    rooms I've replaced the ceilings with plaster board and commercially
    available Victorian pattern cornices, although I did remake the
    original ceiling roses.
    
    If you are going to pull out a patch and replaster, figure out the
    size of the area you're going to pull, and then cut around the outside
    with a Stanly knife, veeing as you go. This will then give a detached
    patch of plaster which may gently be removed without (so much) risk of
    damaging the sounder surrounding plaster.
    
    best wishes,
    Michael Watts

    Re: .18
    
    Thanks ! Nice ideas.
    
    Marc H.

Since .18 is in Australia, can anyone translate "lime putty" and "cemstik"
into American?

    
    Theres no substitute for Yankee insularity! ;<)
    
    Lime Putty is lime (do you still call it lime? - calcium hydroxide, or
    calcium oxide with water added, but still a powder) with sufficient
    water added to make it about the consistency of thick whipped cream,
    then let it stand for a minimum of 48 hours, but preferably a week,
    stirring every couple of days.
    
    When mixed with Plaster of Paris (preferably class C, but class A will
    do), it slows the set and makes the resultant mix more workable. The
    disadvantage with it is that the lime putty is,  of course, a strong
    alkali, so one should use gloves or a protective barrier cream on the
    soft hands of us office workers.
    
    Cemstik is a 3M product, so thought it would be well known in the USA!
    It looks and smells very much like standard white wood glue. Its an 
    adhesive that is used as an additive to cement, or painted on
    surfaces to enhance adhesion or modify suction - and suction is the be all
    and end all of plastering. I never ever thought I'd be so interested in
    exactly how much something sucked.
                
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    
    This is a very old and inactive note, but I would like to mention
    something here that I am about to try.  Any comments would be
    appreciated.
    
    I have just removed the wallpaper from the dining room of my newly
    purchased 100+ year old Victorian in Winchendon, Ma.  The walls are all
    rough coat plaster that has never been painted.  Unfortunately, there are
    sections of the walls that are not in very good shape while others are
    in pristine condition.  I want to paint the walls instead of wall paper
    so I have to do something to prep the wall surfaces.  Here's my idea...
    
    I want to hang artist canvas on the walls, applied like wall paper, and
    then paint over the canvas.  I've heard of this being done in some real
    fancy apartments in NYC and thought it would be really good idea.  It
    will act as a reinforcement to the plaster preventing the re-appearance
    of old cracks and should get a very unique wall finsh.
    
    This will not be a cheap solution, but is should add some character to 
    the wall finish of this potentially beautiful room.  I've priced the 
    canvas and the best price so far is $9 per yard and I need about 40 yards
    (big room).  Anybody know where I can get a better deal?  The other issue
    that I have yet to figure out is how to deal with is the seams.  I
    intend to the widest canvas as I can find (to minimize the number of
    seams to be dealt with) and plan use the factory edges for the seams, but
    I'm still not sure how that is going to look.  I've also toyed with the 
    idea of sewing the sections togather, but am afraid that this will not
    solve the seam problem and make hanging it much harder.  Another thing
    I've considered was to use a heavy primer on the canvas before the
    finish coat to hide the seams but am afraid this will mute the texture
    too much.  If anyone has any suggestions/comments/hair-brained
    ideas/etc , please post them here.  This is going to take me a while to
    figure out, but I'll let you know how things turn out when I finally get
    it all done.
    
    Stu

    re: .8
    
    Have you looked into scenic canvas (as used in theaters to make flats
    for sets?  When I used it in college, it came in rolls 6' wide by
    (100 yards?) long...a lot.  You might not want a whole roll, but I
    bet it would be lot cheaper than 9 bucks a yard.  Then again...that
    was a long time ago.  I have no idea where you would find it, but
    a call or two to the technical director at a local professional theater
    ought to give you a source.

    
    
    If you're looking for a smooth flat surface, then scenic canvas might
    be your best bet. However, it is cheap because it has a lot of surface
    flaws which do not matter in scenery flats but may be noticeable on your
    living room wall.  
    
    I've seen this technique used in old buildings, but the fabric used is
    usually a much more open weave than canvas - similar to hessian (but
    not as coarse. (It was even available on paper-backed rolls at
    one time, and applied just like wallpaper.)  If you want to go for
    greater texture, then theatrical shark-tooth gauze is a possibility.
    You can get this in 12' widths.
    
    Whatever material you decide on, the machined seam is usually finished
    or marked in a way that prevents you from butting two seams together.  
    You have to overlap the material a few inches and cut through both
    layers, which is not easy to do when using canvas!
    
    It would be much easier to go with a heavy embossed/textured paper,
    and that would do just as good a job of covering the cracks -
    particularly if you used a horizontal layer of lining paper under it.
    
    Regards,
    
    colin                                             
    
     

    There is wall paper specially designed for this application.  You might
    want to check into that.  Skim coating the walls is another option.

    
    Thanks for the input.  I will look into senic canvas, sounds like it
    might be a possibility.  I don't want to skim-coat because cracks in
    the base plaster tend to reappear with time and I don't want to have to
    deal with that.  I have heard of (and seen some) papers that do are
    meant to do the same thing, but I don't particularly like the result. 
    The texture is such that it is evident that the walls have been papered
    and the result is a finish that looks "patched" or like a "cheap fix". 
    No offense intended, it just doesn't appeal to me.  The canvas does. 
    
    Also, I have seen cloth covered walls in old houses too.  I've seen the
    coarse textured material, but have also seen finer weaves and even
    silk.  While the coarser weave did give an interesting finish, it's a
    bit too much for this room I think.  And since I can't aford silk, I'll
    stick with canvas.
    
    Thanks again for the replys, any further discussion would be
    appreciated.
    
    Stu

    We have "canvas wallpaper", called "painter's canvas" by our wallpaper
    dealer, in our hall.  It has a linen-like surface with no obvious
    flaws.  It goes up quite easily.  There's no overlap; you butt the
    edges.  They told us it could take up to eight coats of paint before it
    had to be replaced, but we're still on the first coat.  It greatly
    diminishes the effect of any surface flaws.
    

    I looked in one of my art supply catalogs, and artist canvas is
    available from this place for about $3.00 per yard, for 48" wide
    canvas.  It is also available in 10' widths.  I forgot the catalog
    today, but will try to remember to bring it in tomorrow, and will enter
    the information of prices, widths, etc.  
    
    -ellie

    One art supply house, Daniel Smith, has artist canvas in the following
    widths / price oer linear yard:
    
    48"		4.30
    60"		5.14
    72"		6.16
    84"		8.10
    120"       28.75
    
    This is unprimed cotton 11 1/2 oz weight artist canvas.  They also have
    several other varieties, both primed and unprimed.  
    
    If you are interested in their catalog, or in talking to them, their
    number is 1-800-426-6740.
    
    -ellie

    The "painter's canvas" that I bought from a wallpaper supply house was
    in rolls like wallpaper and nowhere near that expensive.
    

    The canvas I'm talking about is real canvas.  IS the "Painter's canvas"
    actually canvas, or paper?  If it's canvas, it might be usable for oil
    painting.  Do you know what it is made of?
    
    -ellie

    It is cloth.  It is, maybe, a little thicker than the kind of canvas
    that gets stretched on boards for artistes.

I guess the difference between painter's canvas and Painter's Canvas
is about $3.50 a yard.

    Any guess as to what this "Painters' Canvas" is made from?  Is it
    cotton?  I'm wondering if I could use it for painting (pictures, that
    is) instead of the higher priced stuff from the art supply store.  But
    it would have to be something acid-free, like cotton or linen, or else
    it would discolor.
    
    -ellie

    It *seems* like cotton.  The store I bought it from is out of business,
    but a fully stocked wallpaper store ought to have it, or know about it.
    

    Anyone have an update on this course? I am trying to learn basic
    plastering...
    
    
    Marc H.

    
    Well, I've purchased some artist canvas from a local art supply store. 
    It is 53" wide, primed, I bought about 20 yds and paid about $200.  I've
    started to apply it to my dinning room and it's really looking good. 
    The only problem really deals with my seaming technique (which is
    improving as I move around the room).  The room is octagonal and is 15'
    x 15'.  I'll let you all know what it looks like after it's painted.
    
    One really neat thing about this stuff is that if you mess up, it's
    easy to fix.  I had a pretty bad seam that I was able to repair by
    peeling the canvas (after it had been up for a couple of days) back on
    both sides of the seam, re-pasting and working the two edges togather
    with a straight edge and damp cloth.  The repair looks almost as good
    as my other (better) seams.
    
    Stu 

    I looked in all the notes referenced in 1111.76 and didn't find one
    that specifically addressed the issue of.... :
    
    	DIY Plastering Tips
    
    I've watched plasterers do work in my house,... but it always looks so
    easy when they do it.  I'd like to try a little plastering myself and
    was wondering if anyone could give any tips on -
    
    	- preparation
    	- proper plaster mixture(water/plaster)
    	- time sequence (ie/ use plaster right away and you have up to
    			 1 1/2 hours to use it before it's no good).
    	- only plaster to X thickness or it will crack
    	- house temp should be Y
    	- proper tools to use
    	- direction of application
    
    basically, just any tips on 'doing it yourself'.  If there IS a note
    that addresses this, sorry; and please point me in that direction.
    
    thanks for your advice!
    
    -John

    John, I started a similar note in the past. Never got more than a
    couple
    of notes.
    
    I learned how to do skim coat plastering from books and trial and
    error. I have done ceilings and walls in a bedroom , closet, and
    a kitchen to date.
    
    You asked for a lot of info....lets try a couple at a time.
    
    First off, define the plastering as skim coat over blue board.
    If this isn't what you are talking about, then I haven't done
    it.
    
    Let me try some random points.
    
    1. DIY is perfectly possible.
    2. Use 1/2 inch blueboard.
    3. If the blueboard has faded, due to sunlight, apply a bonding agent
       before you plaster.
    4. Buy good tools....a plastering trowel like the marshall town one
       is an excellent one.
    5. Use a power mixer...the type that works off of a 1/2 inch drill
       is minimum. Beat the snot out of the stuff!
    6. Make the plaster into a paste that is soupy, like soft serve
       icecream.
    7. The idea is to apply the stuff first in a quick way, then come back
       in successive steps and smooth it down. 
    8. When you trowel the mixture it will set up sooner....minimize the
       trowelling.
    9. On the second or third pass, wet the surface some with a masonary
       brush first, then smooth it down.
    10.I really don't think that you need to use a retardent if you move
       right along.
    
    11. Don't think that you can't do it. I can, and I'm no skilled
        craftman.
    
    More later....
    
    Marc H.

    It helps to have coolish weather.  Heat affects the time it takes
    for the plaster to start to set.  A cool, rainy day would probably
    give you the most time.

    THanks Mark & Steve.
    
    If there is a part of the wall(already plastered) that you want to
    blend the new wall in to,... how should that be prepared and will
    the regular plaster adhere to it?
    
    When the plasterers came in to plaster some skylights and a ceiling,
    as I recall, they blended it in w/out putting anything on it...6months
    later it looks fine... was that the right thing to do?  Reason I ask,
    is that one plasterer(when I was getting quotes), said that some
    'bondo' stuff should first be applied.
    
    thanks
    
    -John

    Blending....
    
    When you are blending from one time period to another, the common
    method is to have the two parts touch....not overlap. 
    I'm not up on bonding agents, except for the stuff that is used on
    blue board to re-activate it.
    
    Why would you want to add plaster to a previous wall? When you repair
    a section, the new plaster just goes up to the edge of the old. You
    can skim alittle over , but, in general the level of the plaster
    shouldn't change.
    
    Marc H.

    Thanks Marc.
    
    >Why would you want to add plaster to a previous wall? When you repair
    >a section, the new plaster just goes up to the edge of the old. You
    
    
    Because,...  part of the wall that I need to fix used to be covered by
    1/8" flat pine sheets.  When I removed the wood, the there was the 1/8"
    gap between a cabinet and the wall.  I'd like to make it flush w/ the
    cabinet if possible:                            
    
        CURRENT:			DESIRED:
                                                    |
                  . |                               .
      cabinet     . |                  cabinet      |
                  . |                               .
    ............... |                 ..............|
                   ^|                               |
                  / |                               |
                 /  |wall                           | wall
          1/8"--/   |                               |
                    |                               |
                    |(part to be blueboarded &      |
                    | skimcoated is down the        |
                    | wall a bit)                   |
                                                    
    
    (I guess I could put some type of corner molding down the cabinet that
    would cover the gap???)
    
    
    -John

    RE: .5
    
    For an 1/8 inch gap, I would use a patching type plaster. If the crack
    is real deep, stuff some newspaper in until you have about 1/2 inch
    deep space in the gap. Mix up the patching plaster, apply, and smooth
    level with the other two surfaces.
    
    Or, if you are going to plaster the wall that the gap is next too,
    just use the plastic web stuff that is used to cover the joints on
    blueboard.....then fill with plaster.
    
    If you are in SHR3, maybe I can swing by....I'm in SHR1.
    
    Marc H.

    
    These might be useful for you - some general troubleshooting
    tips from a US Gypsum booklet.
    
    	Mix sets too quick
    
    		Contamination from old set plaster on tools
                and in mixing spot
    
    		Alum, chlorine or sulfate in the water supply
    
    	Slow set
    
    		Contamination from glue or organic acids as
                a result of surface preparation/cleaning.
    
    	Lumpy mix
    
    		Plaster absorbed moisture in storage
                (examine bags for water damage)
    
    		Old stock (check date)
    
    		Stock was stacked too high at the
    		store.	(pick from new stacks)
    
        Soft surface
    
    		Mix is too thin
    
    	Pinholes
    
    		Improper mixing and soaking
    
    			Sift plaster into water evenly
    			Do not drop in large quantities at one time
    			Let plaster soak so all particles are wetted
                            (2-4 min)
    			Use propeller mixer @1750 rpm at angle of
                            15deg with propellor forcing mixture downwards.
    			Do not whip air into the mix
    
    	Rough surface
    
    		Plaster not mixed to a "cream"
    
    	Cracking
    
    		Movement in base
    		Thermal shock
    		Shrinkage
    
    			Dry at moderate temperatures, calcination
                        caused by higher temperatures increases
                        shrinkage & cracking.
    
    	Mildew spots
    
    		Plaster never dries out, encourages mould growth
                that leaves stains.  Dilute bleach or fungicide
    	        and paint
    
    	Peeling paint
    
    		Plaster has not dried and stabilized (N days,
                depending on Mfg instructions)
    
    
    	Setting times
    
    		Less water means setting time is faster
                (Note that you can add a sodate setting retardant to
                  lengthen working time)
    
        Less water
    
    		Final density hardness & strength are affected
 		Plaster will not be as fluid, leading to air bubbles.
        
    			Always weigh & measure materials.
    
         Not enough Mixing
    
    		Final density hardness & strength are affected
    		Longer mixing = greater strength, but do not
                 mix into setting stage
    		Undermixing lengthens setting time.
    			(See mixing & soaking)
    
    Regards,
                                  
    Colin
    
    		

         I recently rented a new apartment and was taking down some
    wallpaper in the bedroom. I guess I went to far and came down to the
    plaser on the wall. I know this is plaster from seeing it along time
    ago while in and old house and had asked the owner what it was. I
    pretty sure it is the same thing. It's called hores hair plaster.
         Now I am pretty new to this feild of remodleing. What should I
    do to this stuff. Can I paint on it or should I just rewall paper it.
    I would like to paint, I hate to wall paper.
         Another question came to mind, If I have to sand this how harmful
    is it to breath? I also have a pregant women to think about.
         Any sugestions?
    
                                           Thomas 

    First suggestion....read the directory of this file. Your question has
    been answered before.
    
    Second....horse hair plaster is to be treated as any wall surface.
    Paint it if you want...its just plaster.
    
    If you sand it, I would first ask why? Bumps and wiggles are part of
    anything old. Leave I'm alone. If you have to sand because of a repair
    or something....use the normal precautions that make sense. Mask 
    for you, and vacuum up the area.
    
    Note:  Old walls that have paint on them, may have lead paint. If you
    sand lead paint, it will cause you to create lead dust.
    
    Marc H.

    
    You say it's a "new" apartment yet it has horsehair plaster?  That's
    something which dates back a bit. There is a more recent method which
    uses chopped glass fibre to reinforce the plaster, which is what the
    horsehair (sometimes plant fibres were used) is intended to do.
    
    Usually, the fibre is only used in the basecoat or browncoat, which is
    then skimmed with a smooth finish coat that is suitable for painting or
    papering.  On my first old house the thick horsehair basecoat was
    skimmed with lime & grey syraphite - stuff which predates gypsum
    plasters. It is off-white in color and develops a chalky surface when
    old.
    
    If the present surface is non-dusty, smooth & even, you may be able to
    get away with filling any holes with spackling and painting it or
    sealing and re-papering.
    
    If it isn't smooth, a textured wallcoating covers a multitude of sins,
    although these are not to everyones' taste - especially landlords - as
    this kind of finish is very difficult to remove.  Also, if it is an
    older converted apartment, the textured surface might not fit in with
    the style of the finish & decor.
    
    You should try to minimize the amount of sanding.  Apart from the
    health hazard, the dust is very fine and gets everywhere.  If you have
    to do it, use a good mask, lots of covercloths and vent the room with a
    fan.  A sander with a dust-extractor attachment for your vacuum cleaner
    is useful, although it will clog the filter quickly.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    
                                        

    RE: .2 Most likely "new" to the basenoter

    Thank you all for your recommendations....  I finally tried my hand at
    skimcoating and it really isn't too bad at all;
    
    per .2 recommendation(Steve),  I plastered this past Saturday evening,.. 
    cool, rainy,... just miserable ;)   It gave me enough time in between
    "scratches" to wonder if I'm really doing it right.
    
    per .1 recommendation(Marc),  I beat the snot out of the plaster, w/ a
    power mixer off a 1/2" drill, and made it into a soft serve.  Given
    that I wasn't going to mix a whole bag, the soft serve tip was
    an excellent description of the correct consistancy.
    
    A couple of my own experiences/recommendations:
    
    	o An obvious one, use corner bead!  Easy to install and easy to
    	  work with.
    
    	o Plaster can be a REAL mess!  Take precautionary steps;)
    
    	o When I watched the profesional plasterers do a room in my house,
    	  some time back, the last two times over the plaster, they used a
          FELT BRUSH.  This gave it the reaaaal smooth, glass like
          appearance/feel.  I tried a stiff sponge, but wasn't able to get
    	  it as smooth.  I'd recommend picking one of these up (if it's
    	  not cost prohibitive).
    	
    	o Another recommendation from (.1?), get good tools.  Well, I went
    	  to get tools and there were two trowels: Expensive and Cheap....
    	  on the order of 10X to 15X more for the expensive.  Given the
    	  somewhat small job that I was doing, I selected the cheaper... it
    	  worked out ok, but did bend a bit... you don't want it to bend.
    
    	
    Other than that, it was a pleasant experience!
    
    Happy plastering.....
    		-John
    

    RE: .8
    
    Glad that it went O.K. for you!
    
    For tools, I recommend that in the future, use the Marshaltown
    line of trowels. Very nice.
    
    The last/glass type finish is done by wetting the surface with a fine
    brush, then using the trowel to "grease it down".
    
    Use a semigloss paint and the minor defects will disappear (except to
    you!).
    
    Marc H.

>    Use a semigloss paint and the minor defects will disappear (except to
>    you!).

Ya?  I thought that flatter (like flat or eggshell) finish paint hides 
imperfections better than a higher gloss.  Reason: on a higher gloss finish 
you get more light reflection.

Dan

    RE: .10
    
    You are correct. I meant eggshell.
    
    Marc H.

    I'm about to start putting plaster over blueboard -- what kind of
    plaster should I use?
    
    I commonly see the following in hardware stores:
    
    	1) Plaster of Paris (too soft, right?)
        2) Patching plaster
        3) Joint compound
    
    I know there are other types, like Moulding Plaster and Hydrocal
    (I know Hydrocal isn't correct for this), but they're hard to find.
    
    What should I use?

    If you want a smooth finish, you want "veneer plaster," I believe.
    
    

    
    
      All three that you listed are the wrong type. I don't know the name
    of plaster that is used for skimcoating, but you should be able to get
    it at a store that also sells to the trade.
    
    				Kenny
    

    We bought something this past weekend to go over the blueboard we
    have up in the kitchen.  It was at HQ, was in a blue/white bag,
    and is used over the plaster.  It was recommended by the guy there
    who deals with the contractors and says it is the only thing they
    use.  Dries quickly and dries hard.....doesn't shrink or crack.  
    You need to mix it, of course, and put it on with a trowel.  Should
    be quite the experience.....
    
    N
    
    For our other rooms we plan to try the old-fashioned method of
    REAL plastering, used in the 1800's.  Our house is 200 years old,
    so we want that "historically correct" look.

    re: .3
    
    For the "historical look," I suggest you get some base coat plaster
    and use it as a skim coat over blueboard.  The result is a slightly
    grainy texture that closely resembles the old horsehair plaster.
    We had that done in our house, and it's a good reproduction.
    
    Unless, of course, you have an overwhelming urge to use wood lath....
    You'll still want the base coat plaster in any case though; the
    finish veneer plaster comes out much too smooth.  If you try to make
    it "rough," it comes out looking like badly-applied smooth plaster.
    

    re: -1
    
    Great suggestion.  Yes, I have a newfound friend who is a real purist
    about plaster and he will teach me the technique for application over
    wood lath.  My husband isn't as enthused, but is willing to give it
    a shot.  But in the kitchen we plan to just skim the existing blueboard
    (because we don't have the money yet to put in lots of windows, new
    cabinets, etc) so this will be a temporary bandaid. 
    
    I think what I have is the veneer plaster.....so I should go out and
    get the base coat plaster.  I have the trowels, and I am just hoping
    I can get the hang of it fast enough to do the walls well (before the
    stuff dries).  I will probably practice on old sheets of scrap
    blueboard first till it works out right.  
    
    Thanks for the suggestion.  I really want the place to look OLD OLD
    OLD!  :-)  My master bedroom is all original and it really makes a
    world of difference in the look.  Plaster just looks SO different
    from blueboard, at least to me, and though the look is not for
    everyone, it is exactly what I want!
    
    N

    There have been a number of good entries, here, about plaster.
    Check the dir.
    
    I would recommend that you buy your plaster from a plaster/masonary
    supplier..not at HQ or the like. You will find that the plaster has a 
    shelf life, and you will get excellent results from fresh plaster.
    There is a good company in Worcester, Ma. Is that close by?
    
    Marc H.

    I am curious as to whether there exists any products which can be used
    as substitutes for plaster(is it called "skimcoat") for finishing
    sheetrock walls?  I was planning on just painting the walls but the
    final outcome, I guess, would not be as smooth a finish as if I had
    the walls skimcoated, so I thought I'd ask.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob Brister
    

    RE: .0
    
    There are many different skimcoats.....the common type is made of
    slaked lime (Ca0), sand, gypsum (CaSO4) and other special chemicals.
    Straight plaster is gypsum.
    
    What is your application?
    
    Marc H.

    I put up some walls in my basement. The basement was already finished,
    I just expanded the finished space into the unfinished space. I do not
    want to go through the expense of having a professional come in and
    skimcoat the wall board, so I was inquiring into whether there are
    other products or ways to get the look and feel of a skimcoating
    without the skimcoating.
    
    
    Bob B.
    
    

	    I skim coated my porch with joint compound.  This was more
	expensive than regular joint compound but I don't remember what
	it was called.  I can look when I get home.  It stated on the
	label that it could be used for skim coating.  
	    I tried it and I like the results.  It's bright white and
	is holding up fine (so far).  
					Tim

    
    
    If its only a small section, why dont you just tape the joints
    and screw holes with Joint compound yourself?   Water down the
    JC.  Give it a few coats and sand inbetween with a wet sponge.
    Not much mess and it will save you a few buck......
    
    JD

    
    I also used joint compound for a small area.  It's ok, but the surface
    is a lot softer than finish plaster if you use the ready-mixed variety.
    The drymix is MUCH harder (and cheaper), but you only have a 90-minute
    working time.
    
    There's a cheat way to skimcoat a wall if you don't have the time to
    become adept with a trowel.  Get some .25" lath that's been planed to a
    uniform thickness and tack it to the wall a couple of feet apart,
    running in the direction of the wallboard joints.  Coat the space
    between each pair of laths, with a knife or trowel.  Level off with
    a wet steel straightedge, using the lath to guide the depth.
    
    Let dry, then remove the lath and fill in the holes - this time
    using the dry plaster as a guide.  It's a bit time consuming, but the
    finish is better than I can do with a bow trowel freehand.
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    

    RE: all
    
    Note: There is a product on the market called Skimcoat which is
    designed as a floor leveler.  This product is not designed for walls.
    
    Dan

    If it was me, I'd use the commercial "veneer plaster" that USG sells
    ;i.e. skimcoat plaster, and put it on yourself.
    
    No big deal, really.
    
    Marc H.

    
    I have these old horsehair walls in my bedroom that I wanted to prime
    for paint.  However, they are crumbling in front of my eyes.  Not big
    holes, just grainy sand falling all around.  Can I skimcoat over these
    with veneer plaster, Marc?  Or do I have to use base coat plaster
    again?
    
    I had bought a bucket of joint compound, but then was told it was too
    soft a medium, and would shrink and crack.  I have NO idea what I am
    doing, but have two trowels and a bag of veneer plaster in my closet.
    I don't want to make more of a mess, and I do hear that the plaster
    sets really quickly so you have to work fast and know what you are
    doing.
    
    Any tips or techniques would be appreciated.
    
    Nancy

    My solution to the problem of crumbling plaster was to gut the
    room and get somebody to come in and put up new blueboard and
    plaster...but maybe you don't want to go quite that far.  In
    my case, the plaster was loose on the lath and threatening to
    fall off anyway.  
    
    I might be inclined to use joint compound to skimcoat with; if you
    trowel it out thin, cracking shouldn't be a problem.  If you want
    to use real plaster, you'll have about a 30-minute working time,
    I think, so don't mix up more than you can use in about 30 minutes.
    If it starts to harden before you've used it all, be willing to
    throw it away and mix some fresh.
    But, if the old plaster is crumbling and powdery, the new plaster is
    going to fall off pretty soon no matter what you use.  The new plaster
    will be only as solid as the base that's under it.
    
    Taking down the old walls makes an *incredible* mess, but if you
    do you'll be able to insulate properly, update the wiring, and do
    other stuff that probably needs doing.  And you can put up new,
    good walls.  A skimcoat of basecoat plaster on blueboard looks
    enough like old horsehair plaster to satisfy most anybody, in case
    you want to preserve the old aesthetics.

    
      Please remember that if the surface is crumbly, new skimcoat will not
    adhere either since all is has to stick to is a surface that is
    crumbling. What you *can* do that I have heard works very well is paper
    the walls with a special material *made* to help hold them together
    and give you a nice surface ovber which you can paint and paper again.
    
    				Kenny

    
    re 8.
    
    That about describes the state of all the walls that I had in my first
    house.  Being no plasterer, I used the technique described in .5 where
    the plaster has completely delaminated from the lath or brick base. 
    There's nothing you can do except chisel it off and replace - either a
    patch or a whole wall.
    
    The rest of the walls had become what is called "friable".  You wipe
    your hand across them and it comes away chalky.  This is fixable by
    wiping down to remove the loose material and then applying a
    plaster/masonry stabilising solution.   You can then fill any cracks
    (providing these are not still moving) and re-skim, paint or paper. I
    didn't bother to re-skim as it was an old house so we wanted to
    preserve the bumpy finish.    
    
    The problem you describe can also be caused by moisture moving salts to
    the surface of the plaster - efflourescence.  If you have what looks
    like white fur or crystals at the edge of slightly discoloured patches
    it's because of damp which you'll need to fix first.
    
    luck,
                 
    
    Colin
    
    

    I have the same problem, and the solution is to re-do one room at a
    time with blueboard/skimcoat. As the previous replies noted, it allowed 
    the insulation, etc. to be checked/upgraded. And the new walls do not
    look much different from the old, which was important to me.
    
    As a temporary measure, I did skim coat over some of the old plaster.
    I used some plaster washers where it was seriously loose from the
    lath, then painted on bonding agent - Borden makes it, probably diluted
    Elmer's glue. Skim coat held well. I only did this because of time
    constraints. When/if I work on another house this old, and the plaster
    is not good, I will have it all taken out at the same time. If it
    wasn't for the demolition/cleanup, the new walls would be a breeze.
    
    Joseph
    
    
    
    Joseph

    
    
    I've seen 3/8 sheetrock installed over old walls.  It requires 
    moving outlet and switch fixtures out a tadd.  Depending on trim
    work, you might have to do extra work.
    
    But, the best way is to fix it right:)
    
     

    RE: .8
    
    Nancy,
     I have to agree with most of the replies. If the plaster is starting
    to crumble, then the material has started to fall apart. Maybe due to
    being not made correct in the beginning (old material varied widely
    in quality), or weak keys that caused the plaster to move and then
    fall apart.
    
    I would either remove the plaster, and then apply a base coat to the
    lath, followed by the skimcoat....or..remove both the plaster and lath
    and install blueboard with a skimcoat of plaster.
    
    The plaster is good for the garden ( sand and lime) and the lath is
    great for kindling!
    
    If you do use the old lath, be sure to wet it down before applying the
    base coat.
    
    If this is your first time into plaster, consider removing the lath and
    plaster.....put up the blueboard yourself...then hire a plasterer to
    come in.....watch him/her work, then do it yourself the next time
    (there *will* be a next time).
    
    Marc H.

    
    -1
    
    There's a box extender you can buy that prevents you having to move the
    box out at all.  saves a bit of time.

    
    Thanks everyone!  I have been feeling really discouraged.  I am a bit
    of a purist, and had eventually hoped (and I know you may all cringe
    at this) to remove the walls, put up new lath and do real plastering
    to utilize the same techniques as when the house was first built
    (circa 1830).  But it has been daunting.  I like the idea of putting
    up new blueboard and then baseplastering over that.  Sounds like a good
    substitute.  Well, I will go home and do a test on the wall.  I know
    for certain that my second bedroom is literally collapsing in front of
    my eyes -- the only thing holding the wall up at this point is the
    wallpaper :-).  But the master bedroom walls are still quite solid and
    except for that chalky grit that someone mentioned a few notes back, it
    is quite straight and clean and strong.  A skimcoat over that should
    suffice.  
    
    Ahh, the joys of old-home ownership.  I really love the place, and it
    has a lot of character, but you pull one thing down and there are 12
    things behind it that need fixing as well.  (sigh)  
    
    Nancy

    RE: .16
    
    Welcome to the joys of an old home!
    
    My home is 160 years old.......
    
    Groan
    
    
    Marc H.

    Is it ok to have occasional trowel marks in plaster or is it a sign of
    poor application?  On the same vein, are skimcoated walls normally
    sanded or is it a contractor/homeowner $$ decision?
    
    
    /Chris

    If the wall is supposed to be smooth, you shouldn't need to sand it,
    and there shouldn't be trowel marks, but "good job" or "bad job" 
    depends on what texture the plasterer was trying to achieve when 
    he did the job. If you want a glass-smooth plaster wall, a plasterer 
    can give it to you, with no need to sand.  If you want a rougher 
    texture, a plasterer can do that too, especially with basecoat
    plaster, in which case occasional trowel marks are probably okay. 

    RE: .39
    
    Says it all.
    
    Marc H.

    Most of the walls in our 125-year-old house are the original plaster on
    wooden lath.  Some renovation has been done with wallboard, with just
    the fastners and joints covered with joint compound.  I really dislike
    these newer walls because they look too flat and inappropriate for an
    old house.

    -- Ward

    RE: .41
    
    Apply a coat of skimcoat yourself.....It will look great.
    
    Marc H.

    Suggestion for sheet rock settling repairs.
    
    I've been in my new place now for 8+ years.  And as time would
    have it, some setting has taken place, nothing major.
    
    Are there any easy ways for taking care of those small cracks in the
    painting of the sheet rock?  I'm not very good with spaggling (is that
    what the stuff is called? Its white I'm told) or is it spackling?
    
    Or should I just get someone in to do it?  If thats the case how
    much does it cost to have a couple of spaggling jobs done, and then
    a repaint of walls? And as you probably know there are also a couple
    of other little jobs that could be done as well.
    
    Connie (unhandy woman)
    

    For small, hairline cracks...spackling compound works fine. Do it
    yourself.
    
    Marc H.

Joint compound is better than "spackle" in that the former cleans up with
water and can be applied and then wiped with a wet sponge to smooth out.
Spackle usually needs sanding.

You can also buy a spray can of a rubbery compound (Goodbye Cracks, I think
it's called) which you spray on the cracks and then paint over it.  Unlike
ridgid material (joint compound or spackle), it will give as the wall
continues to settle and prevent the crack from opening again.  Most hardware
or paint stores should carry this.

				Steve

    Joint compound shrinks...spackle doesn't. Also, when applied correctly,
    sanding isn't needed.
    
    Marc H.

    You should NOT simply apply spackle to the crack. The crack will
    reappear before to long. 
    You SHOULD apply tape - either paper or the mesh fiberglass - and imbed
    them in the spackle. This will make a lasting fix.

If it's a hairline crack, I believe that taping it is serious overkill.

I wouldn't use tape on any crack less than 1/16" wide.

-Jack

The only time you should need tape over a crack is if it goes all the way 
through the sheetrock.  And then, you need to tap down the area under the tape 
(in essence, crushing the underlying sheetrock) so that the resulting 
tape_coated_with_compound is flush with the surface of the surrounding areas.
If the crack is long and/or cuts across a corner of a piece, it could indicate 
that the sheet is loose and needs to be (re)screwed before filling the crack or 
the crack will re-appear shortly.

Most of the time, spackle, sanding and painting permanently fixes hairline 
cracks.

Dave

Well I want to thank all of you who've replied thus far.
That are obviously a couple of ways to go about this.
I'll have to give it some thought.

Connie

    Another way to fix small hairline cracks and troublesome areas 
    is to fill/coat the crack with vynl adhesive caulking. Just apply 
    it and take a damp cloth an smooth it before it dries. The caulk 
    will remain pliable and will help prevent futher cracking. Then 
    just paint over it. It worked for me.
                                         
  /BD