Conference 7.286::home_work

    Gravel will disappear.  I had this problem for years until I paved
    the driveway.  I put down gravel every summer.  The next spring,
    when everything thawed, it would all get mixed in with the clay
    and turn to mud in no time at all.
    
    A good base of stone dust might work for a few years, but the only
    permanent solution is to pave it (and grade the sides so that water
    from the snow melt will run DOWN the driveway instead of UNDER it).
    

    I'm not sure I getcha:  it WAS dirt until last weekend.  Is it not
    still dirt?
    
    Secondly, is the right of way on your neighbor's deed and runs over
    your property or vice versa?
    
    
    /jack

>    I'm not sure I getcha:  it WAS dirt until last weekend.  Is it not
>    still dirt?
    
I think he means that now it's MUD.

Paul

    Here's some defining...
    
    	Yes, I was referring to WAS as dirt changing itself to mud.
    Since the mud has started getting worse instead of better, I've
    added some gravel in the most severe spots, but who is to guess
    how much more is expected.
    
    	Also, I checked in regards to the right of way...you can change
    the material, (composition); of it but not alter, degrade or cause
    restructure that would cause errosion to any attached parcels.
    
    	This experience is probably going to turn into a rule of thumb
    like" stay away from all right-of-way properties".
    
    						gfc

    We had a right of way in the previous house. The driveway was dirt
    and we offered to help pay for the cost of paving it. The owner
    didn't have the cash at the time but was willing to go along with
    the idea, he hated the dirt also. We have since moved and they now
    have the money, maybe the new owners will go along with the deal.
    Try asking your neighbor, maybe they would like to have it paved
    also at a split cost.
    
    Ed

    What's wrong with gravel?
    
    
    My parents have a gravel driveway which is at least a quarter of
    a mile long.  They plow it with a tractor every winter and loose
    less than 5% of the gravel.
    
    
    A gravel driveway is not just a bunch of loose stones.  AFter a
    couple of  years of driving on it, the gravel sinks into the dirt
    and becomes almost as hard as concrete.   They've had to re-coat
    the driveway with gravel once in 9 years since they've owned the
    house.
    
    
    
    Don't use the real small stuff. (I can't remember the grade right
    now) but use maybe the 1B stone (about half the size of a golf-ball)
    Especialy if your driveway is long, this is cheaper
    
    
    -bill

    FYI... When you start talking to contractors and gravel yards, the term
    "gravel" or "bank gravel" usually refers to a very course sand material
    with rocks of varying sizes mixed in. The rocks by the way are often
    refered as "bones" and the quality of the gravel is described as "clean
    gravel" (few and smaller stones) or "bony gravel" (many and larger
    stones). 

    If you want what most people want when the say "gravel" you should ask
    for either "pea stone"  which are rounded or "crushed stone" which has
    a sharper squared off shape. Both are graded by the size of the stone,
    i.e. 1/2", 3/4", 1", etc. 

    Charly

    
    The house I grew up in had a gravel driveway. For the first couple
    of years it was very muddy. But every year my dad would put down
    stone. After the first couple of years the driveway was great. Then
    about every 10 years we had to add more stone. The big stone is
    not good. It can easilly cut your tires. The best you should use
    is #1 size stone. This is about 1/2 in diamater. A good gravel driveway
    is better during the winter then a paved. I'm not talking about
    one that is all muddy, but one that has been kept up for a few years.
    One like the one we had after about 4 years of carring for it.
    

    This must be a topic for men only.  Gravel driveways are the pits
    if you care about shoes, more specifically, heels.  I think in some
    cases the cost of the asphalt would be covered by the savings in
    shoes!
    
    Elaine
    :-)

    I agree that a gravel/crushed stone etc. drive is a pain to plow;
    however, sometimes paving just doesn't look good. Our house was
    built in the middle of an old apple orchard, and with the style
    of house, landscaping etc. paving would not look good. Fortunately,
    there is a paved drive to the side (garages), which we use during
    the winter, since the solution we have is not plowing the front.
    
    This year we did have it plowed, since one household member was
    on crutches and needed the access. Very little gravel was scraped
    off - I just raked it off the lawn.
    
    Joseph
    

    Folks,

	I have a 150' long un-paved driveway that at one time was
	probably nicely covered with gravel.  Over time, the gravel
	has been disseminated to the earth.  There are some low
	spot that collect rain/snow water and make for muddy trekking.
	I called up a gravel place to find out how much it would
	cost me to re-gravel my driveway.  Well, much to my naive
	DIY dismay, I found that there are several types of gravel.
	They said that there was "bank run", "screen" and "crushed".
	I believe that the crushed is the finest and that it was
	used as the topping on a gravel run.  Right?  Please correct
	me if I'm wrong.   They said that one 10-wheeler would give
	me about 3" (what?) and that should be sufficient (~$140).

	Also, after they "leave" the stuff, I guess I have to spread it
	around.  They mentioned something about a back-hoe, but that
	seemed a bit excessive.

	Can someone please give me some tips on graveling a driveway?
	What kind of gravel should I use?  How do I physically spread
	it around?  Tips on spreading and working with the stuff
	greatly appreciaited.   Also, once it's down, any other tips and
	suggesstions on mainteance and the like.

				Thanks in advance.

				Pete

    

    If your loosing the stuff into the earth, then you should remove
    the top layer/clay/loam, etc., and get down to some kind of firmer
    subbase. If you have a very deep soil and can't get down to a well
    drained sub-base, such as sand or gravel, I'd recommend digging
    down about 1 to 1,1/2 feet and replace it with some crushed stone,
    1,1/2. Put a 4" layer of crushed gravel for the upper most section
    and compact it. 
     Another  alternative might be to use stone dust in place of the
    crushed gravel. You might also consider hot-topping as the best
    solution, but I still like the looks of a gravel/stone dust driveway.
    I had a driveway with a bottomless base once and every spring I
    had to deal with large amounts of mud. You have to either get rid
    of the water by draining installing a well drained base or else
    cap it with hot-top. Either way it will cost you a few dollars.
    If you still want to try just spreading out some gravel, I'd recommend
    putting down the crushed gravel. It's easier to work with, gives
    you a nice uniform base and compacts well.
    

	Three inches may be too much, if you have too much, it is like 
driving on marbles, and you can get 'stuck'.  This happened to several
of my neighbors, and they both had to thin their driveways out a bit.
I think you should level your driveway as much as possible by hand to 
get out the low spots, then put on a two inch layer (or less) of 3/8"
crushed stone.

Brad.

    My driveway runs about 45 feet and we put down what the gravel company
    calls "river stone".  The stones run from 1 to 2 inches in size
    and are rounded at the edges.  I think they look better than crushed
    stone, but they don't pack as well.  As far as the spreading, make
    sure when they dump the stone that they start at the top of your
    driveway and dump as they drive out.  You have to ask the driver
    to do this, otherwise you'll have all 30 cubic yards dumped in one
    10 foot high mound.  

    	If you know someone with a old 4x4 with plow it can be pused
    around with that. My Dad just re-did his drive way this spring and
    used his plow truck for this. It's not something you want to do
    with your new 15k dollar 4x4. My father re-did his drive way in
    two layers first layer was 1-1&1/2 of trap rock. the 2nd layer 
    was crushed stone which packed down real nice. Seem to hold up all
    right except at the bottom where it get washed/dragged into the
    street.
    
    				...Dave
    

    "Gravel" means so many different things, I think we need to get some
    definitions straight.  The only one I can contribute is:

    CRUSHED BANK RUN
        This is not so much "gravel" as dirt.  This includes stones less
    than 3" in diameter.  The stuff I got recently seemed a mixture of
    sandy and clayey soils and stones - too many for my taste, but, then,
    the more finely "sifted" material (name anyone?) wasn't available.
    The "gravel" yard man said this crushed bank run would be perfect for
    my purpose (filling in low spots in a driveway) - "it packs like iron".
    This phrase was also used by excavators I've talked to about the
    driveway to the house-we-want-to-build-someday.

    I went through some of this doing the addition.  What most people
    call "gravel" is actually in the trade called "crushed rock," which
    comes in various diameters (2", 3", ...).  What is called in the
    trade "gravel" most peopel would call "a bunch of rocks in a pile
    of dirt" as it is a mixture of dirt and rocks which are usually
    around 3-5", and is what is used for backfill, underneath slabs,
    underneath (at deeper levels) driveways.  Crushed rock is what is
    underneath (closer to the surface) driveways, and used for trapping
    water (such as when you lay perf piping).
    
    -reed
    

	re .5:

	I think what you are referring to is called "plant mix".  It is
	a mix of sand and stone meant to really pack well but also drain.

	-gary

    Re: .6
    When I was buying some, "gravel" turned out to be what I would 
    call "sand", the kind of stuff they spread on the roads in the
    winter.  

    and will someone now define 'pea stone'?

    pea stone is yellow gravel?

    Pea gravel or pea stones are small non-crushed rock about the size
    of a pea hence the name.
    
    -j
    

    
        I just bought a house in worcester. I moved in a week ago and
     am very involved with the inside of the house.
        My problem is that the previous owner subdivided his lot and
     sold the land on both sides to a contractor who is now building
     on those lots, on one of those lots was th original driveway for
     the house.
        I have decided on a location and even started digging out the
     base for the driveway. I don't remember where or when but I have
     seen driveways in magazines that have been done with paving stones
     instead of concrete or asphalt.
        I would like to know if anyone knows anything about these and
     how much they cost how to put them in and possibly a godd source
     to buy them at.
        I would like to do the whole job myself and I'm not afraid to
     get right in and work with the stuff.
    
    
                                                  Thanks
                                                     John c.
    

    I have used both cement and interlocking blocks (if that is what
    you refer to as paving stones). I have found the interlocking blocks
    much more effective because if you get a frost heave or a sunken
    spot you can simply remove the blocks and repair a small area. 
    They are very easy to lay and you can lay them in different designs
    to get maximum effect out of them.
    Because I don't live in your area, I would suggest you go to the local
    construction store and they usually have directions for laying the
    stones.
    Where I live, in Canada we get about 8 feet of frost in the winter
    so there is a lot of prep work to laying the interlocking blocks.
    ie. 2 feet of 3/4" gravel, then 4" of sand and then your interlocking
    block. 
          
    Robb

    There are several other notes in this file about this topic.
    

    Ideal Concrete Block Company on Powder Road in Westford, Ma. has
    all kinds of paving materials.  Their own driveway is paved
    with some kind of paving block.
    
    They were very nice and helpful when I went to talk to them about
    putting down a brick walk.  When I do get around to doing it I plan
    on buying from them.
    
    They seem to have builder's hours - open very early, close very
    early - but they are open Saturday mornings.
    
    Carol

    Try Kesseli & Morse on Canterbury St. in Worcester. They've been
    advertising the paving stones lately.
    
    /H

    We bought ours from Ideal concrete block.  It cost (including the
    materials to prepare the site and bed the blocks) us about $1500
    total for materials for around 800 square feet.

    I have a house that was built on the side of a steep hill, and the
    driveway is quite some distance (down below) from the house.  The
    builders put in some railroad-tie steps that get you from the top
    of the driveway to the level where the house is (a terracing shceme).
    In addition to this, the driveway is VERY steep from the street
    level.  
    
    My first problem is connecting the top of the RR-tie steps to the
    house with walkways.  I've considered cement, but it's very difficult
    to lug up to the top (as contractors won't/can't deliver it there).
    
    The second problem is at street level.  There is a level area that
    we park our cars on.  It once was grass, but now (as expected) is
    dirt/mud.  We have considered paving this, but don't really wan't
    to spend the money.
    
    For both of these problems I have been considering stone dust as
    an alternative.  I've seen it used to "pave" a dirt road driveway, 
    and it looked fairly practical from a distance. 
    
    I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with stone dust.
    What does it cost?  How practical is it, really?  What would be
    the (un)reccommended application for the material on my two pro-
    blems above?
    
    Rik

    My last house had a stone dust driveway.  The depth varied from
    4 to 10 inches in places.  After two and a half years, a few spots
    had washed out on the slope, but nothing major.  I forget the cost,
    but its fairly cheap.
    
    That's the good news -- the driveway part is no problem.
    
    In that house, it was easy to get from the driveway into the house
    (at least the basement/garage were on the same level).  That's the
    bad news.  Stone dust is *very* dusty.  I would not use it near
    the access path to the house.  You continually leave dusty footprints
    at best and at worst, you bring in little pieces of grit that really
    wreck wood floors.
    

    
    You could either rent or buy a cement mixer and make the walk or
    stairs yourself.  I don't know if this is practical in your situation.
    One advantage would be you could do it at your own pace.
    
    How about pumping cenent up there?  I've seen it done on several
    TOH episodes.
    
    Phil

    
    
    	You can hire a separate company to show up on the same day as
    the cement truck and they can pump it just about anywhere. You can
    also have the cement company bring there walker for an extra charge.
    The walker is a self propelled bathtub. It can adjust its angle
    going up a steep grade without spilling and can dump the load under
    motor control. I think it can carry 1 yard at a time ?????
    
    	Stone dust is OK but you have to grade the driveway ever once
    in awhile as your car will make ruts. Some people have stone dust
    put down then a coat of (liquid tar ???) or something like that
    to seal it. Its the same stuff they spray on a dirt road to make
    it into a cheap tarred road.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    We had stone dust put done [professionally graded and placed].
    To keep the bond we had cement added.
    I agree that it addes dust and grime.  I probably would not do it
    again.
    In a country setting as we had, it was a nice blend from dirt road
    to house, a cement or asphalt drive would not have looked as nice.
    ed
    

    I agree, stone dust is messy.... Want a nice walkway that will last
    for years with minimal maintenance, dries quickly after rain, and
    clears quickly after snow fall... Use paving bricks set in sand
    or set in stone dust.. depending upon the type of soil below 4-6
    inches of well packed sand set between railroad ties makes for a
    solid and CLEAN and great looking walkway...get a book for ideas
    and more detail.... I love mine I spent extra time to install it
    correctly and have no complaints....
    
    
    						Dave
    

    
    	Asphalt is the only way to go!
    
    	Stone dust/stone is NG...on a steep hill erosion would be
    	disastrous.
    
    	Cement is tough to pour on steep inclines without a lot of
    	seams and they are apt to settle and split apart unless a
        good and careful job is done with rebar. cement inevitably
    	cracks...especially in NE.
         
    				___GM___
    

    Erosion wouldn't be that bad, you just have to keep the water from
    getting up lots of speed.
    
    My father has a 1/4 mile long downhill driveway, and he has just
    a loose gravel driveway.  As long as the water doesn't go too fast,
    the gravel will stay.  (and eventually, it gets beaten into the
    soil and becomes VERY hard.
    
    
    To keep the water from washing the gravel away, we cut drainage
    troughs in the drieway about every 30 or so feet.  Then filled them
    with Cement with about a 4" trough (sloped of course).  Now, when
    the water comes down the driveway, it gets channeled off every 30
    feet, and never really gets going fast enough to wash the stone
    away.  The more you driveway is sloped, the closer you'll need the
    drainage troughs.
    
    
    Asphalt is nice, but on a long driveway, it can cost you lots of
    money.
    
    
    -bill

I have a driveway and walkway done in "oil and stone".  I think this is
what .3 referred to -- it's also called "chips and oil". They start by putting
down 1/2 - 3/4 crushed stone, then cover it with a oil and stone mix.  Then
more stone chips are spread over the whole thing, which is then rolled and
packed down. 

Many country roads are done this way; when they start to wear, the town simply
puts more oil and sand/stone down.  I haven't gone through a spring with the
driveway finished yet, so I'm not sure how the spring runoff will effect the
drive (I think Lunenburg gets all their water from my backyard.)  I'll try to
list what I "think" are the advantages/disadvantages.

***Good:
Excellent traction -- I have a slight rise to go up...the loose "stone chips"
have been a great help this winter.
Price -- about 1/3 cheaper than "finished" asphalt.
Looks -- Debatable, but I like the "rustic" look.
Upkeep -- I'm told it's easier to patch and recoat.
Flexible -- It heaves during the winter, then "levels out" after thaw.
Play area -- Not as good as finished asphalt but my son plays b'ball,
rides his bike, and races his/my remote control car.
Snow removal -- I raised my snowblower up and can still use it, although
there will be stones on my lawn this spring.  We also have the driveway
plowed (the guy does not do gravel or dirt driveways). 

***Bad:
Dirty?? -- I'm told that if it's done in the summer heat, it remains oily
for a while and can be tracked into the house.  I'm not sure if it softens
up every summer (we'll find out!)  We do sometimes track in the loose stones.
Extra stones -- While the loose stones provide traction, if you don't like
them, they can be raked up...there are *LOTS* of loose stones (I left mine
loose but still picked up a garbage can full to spread on ice spots).
Play area -- If a child falls, they will get a *GOOD* scrape.

-Bruce 

                                                 

	I am the proud owner of a house with a gravel (not crushed or
	washed stone, just the stuff that the glacier dropped there)
	driveway that's maybe 6-700 ft long. It's in reasonable shape,
	but has a few soft spots, and needs a bulldozer's loving touch
	every couple of years to even out the hillocks and holes that
	appear. The whole thing softens somewhat at this time of year,
	but it's only about 40 to 60 feet that gets mushy. I'm considering
	the following possibilities to improve the situation:

		1. Getting a few yards of 3/4 inch stone delivered and
		   use that to reinforce the soft spots and the part of
		   the driveway most prone to sprout moguls. This would
		   be done after the dozer has dozed.

		2. Having the whole driveway covered with "Starpack", a
		   mixture of stone dust and small crushed stone. This
		   is said to set up into a very hard surface that resists
		   wear and erosion and will help with soft spots. Again,
		   done in conjunction with a dozer smoothing things out.

	I've read some notes here on the first option, and the consensus
	seems to be that this can work, but I don't know much about the
	Starpack (stone dust) option. How does it stand up to wear (rain,
	snow plows, etc.). Do passing cars raise dust? Any experience out 
	there on pros and cons?

    I had the same problem with my 700 ft. driveway.  I had mine done
    with the same stuff they put on country roads. Macadam (oil & sand)
    
    They came and graded the existing surface. Put down a coat of liquid
    tar.  Then backed down the driveway with a road sander spitting
    out 1/4 in peastone.  They rolled that.  Then did the same thing
    over again (tar and peastone)  rolled it again.  Its been there
    for five years now and still in good condition.  
    
    It does NOT look or wear as good as asphalt, but every 5-7 years
    it can be added to and it only cost me $1500.  It thought it was
    the bargain of the century.
    
    It was done by Dean Co., Barre, MAss.
    

    I forgot to mention that the 5-7 yr. touchup won't cost as much
    (not counting inflation) as the initial application because there
    won't be any surface prep,  and only one coat would be applied.
    
    I have'nt had to do mine over yet, but I would guess probably in
    two years it will need it. (7 years, just like they said)
    

    I used the Starpak(stonedust mixture) last year on a portion of
    my gravel driveway. It was put on at a 4-6 inch thickness, then
    wetted down and rolled to compact it. When I had to plow this winter
    I was pleased to find out that very little was picked up by the
    plow. It was almost nothing compared to the 3/4 inch gravel that
    is on another part of the driveway. It has settled some where the wheels
    travel. If you can, put the Starpak over a good base of the 3/4
    inch gravel. 
    It has not washed away with water running over it which was a problem
    with my sand and rock mixture that was there originally. In the
    summer there is a little dust but no more than sand and rock gravel
    mixture.
    I'm not sure how long it will stand the test of time, but so far
    I am very pleased with it. 

    I HAD THE CRUSHED STONE (STONE DUST) PUT DOWN ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO
    OVER MY DRIVE. BEFORE WE MOVED IN, OUR YARD WAS GRAVEL AND MUD IN
    THE SPRING. WE HAD ONE LOCAL (NORTH ANDOVER, MA.) MAN COME IN AND DO IT ALL.
    1. HE GRADED WHERE NECESSARY WITH A DOZER
    2. WHEN WE PUT IN THE GARAGE, HE BROUGHT IN GRAVEL, THEN A LAYER
    OF 1" STONES, THEN COVERED THE WHOLE THING WITH STONE DUST.
    
    SO FAR, THIS WINTER WAS THE ONLY TIME SOME GOT PLOWED WHEN WE HAD
    THE THAW THEN A BUNCH OF SNOW ON TOP. THE PERSON WHO PLOWES CAME
    IN AND PUSHED THE PILES OF DUST BACK, AND I DON'T EXPECT ANY MORE
    REWORK WILL BE NEEDED. 
    TIRES DO BRING DUST INTO THE GARAGE WHICH HAS A CEMENT FLOOR, BUT
    SWEEPING CURES THIS.
    I LIKE THE LOOKS OF THE GRAY STUFF, AND WAS TOLD IT IS THE BEST
    BASE IF I EVER WANT TO HOT TOP. I THINK ITS A GOOD INVESTMENT, YOU
    CAN ALWAYS ADD MORE WHERE NEEDED, AND YOU DONT HAVE TO DO MUCH
    MAINTENANCE.JOE

    
    I've had both stone dust (prev house) and starpack (current).
    The star pack packs down to provide a much more stable surface than
    stone dust, resists erosion, and doesn't get dug up as easily by
    the plow.
    

    What's the difference between stone dust and starpack?  
    What should I expect to pay per yard for starpack?  I'm going to
    order something today, but haven't decided what.
    

>        What's the difference between stone dust and starpack?  
>    What should I expect to pay per yard for starpack?  I'm going to
>    order something today, but haven't decided what.

    I'll answer my own questions since I just ordered it.
    Starpack is stone dust mixed with stones.  (This isn't entirely
    clear from previous replies).
    I'm paying $244 for 20 yards delivered.
    
    

    Does anyone know where I can get Starpack in Southern New Hampshire?
    
    I called a few gravel places and they never heard of the stuff.
    
    Thanks.

>        Does anyone know where I can get Starpack in Southern New Hampshire?
>    
>    I called a few gravel places and they never heard of the stuff.

    I can't tell you where to get it, but I can tell you that they probably
    call it stone base.  That's why they never heard of it.
    
    BTW, after putting the stuff down a good idea is to use a lawn and
    garden spreader to spread portland cement over it occasionally.
    Then when it rains, you'll have a very hard surface.
    

    
    	How about a status report on how these starpack driveways have
    	held up over the summer?  One thing in particular I'm interested
    	in hearing is, how water reacts with it.  Do you find it makes
    	puddles, or does the starpack allow it to drain off?  What about
    	packing, and any loss of material through use of vehicles? 
    	Would you go with the same thing again?

    
    Our's has been in for 2+ years now, and I'll probably put
    some more down in the spring. It needs some periodic fixup
    as it does develop potholes, and in one spot, where we have 
    a runoff problem, we occasionally get some washout. I usually
    do a maintenance pass spring and fall, takes me an hour or so each
    time.
    
    I'd do it again, as it's almost as good as hot top, and a lot cheaper.
    

    I put in my starpack driveway last spring.  It's held up well as
    far as staying smooth, not having holes, etc.
    I live on a dirt road and have to keep a trench near the top of
    the driveway so dirt doesn't run down over the starpack when it
    rains.
    
    Another problem is that grass grows up thru it where I don't drive on it.

    I'd use it again, yes.
    

    My starpack driveway is two years old. I got it from Lone Star in
    Littleton. After it was delivered, I spread it, leveled it, and
    then compacted it with a 300 pound roller.  Today, the area is still
    very level, with only minor depressions where cars travel.  
                                                             
    The material is 4 inches deep over a large, fairly level area. I don't
    have problems with runoff of the material, but do have minor problems
    with puddles.                                            
                                                             
    In the winter, snow is kind of difficult to shovel without taking
    up some stone. I've been leaving a 2 inch layer of snow over the
    stone.                                                   
                                                             
    This summer, weeds started to grow in the driveway. I considered using
    a weed killer, but found that the weeds are very easy to pull, so I
    control them that way. 
             
    Also, leaves are difficult to rake without lifting stones. I'm
    considering getting a leaf blower. 
                                                              
    In all, I see these as minor inconveniences. I'm very happy with the
    starpack. For the price, it can't be beat. 
                                                              
    
    

    I am interested in putting in a gravel/Crushed stone driveway, approx
    24x7 ft.
     Does anyone have a driveway like this ?
     What type of base is used ?
     What size stones ?
    
     Any feedback will be appreciated !
    
    
    
    Thanx    
    
                Lee
    
    

    It ain't no fun shovelling snow in the winter, and dangerous to use a
    snow blower!! We did it for 5-6 years then had the driveway paved as
    soon as we could afford it. 
    Our driveway is about 65x14. Since your driveway is so small, maybe
    that's not an issue.

    Stone base (star-pack) is the best base for paving anyway.  So you
    can do that now, then pave when you can afford to.
    

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Paul [Moderator]

    I am considering some type of gravel driveway and would like to
    view some of the finished products. I live in Milford, If anyone
    has this kind of driveway in the general area and wouldn't object
    to my taking a gander, please respond .
    
    thanx 
    
    
                Lee

    Does pea stone make a good driveway? 

    The problem with pea stone for a driveway is it never really pack
    tight and the stones seem to craw onto surrounding lawns and
    landscaping. On the otherhand, they look good...
    
    Jim
                                                    
    ps during snow removal the stones seem to move to the same place
    as the snow. 

    I'm hoping someone can help me out. I have no experience involved
    with driveways, but I need to get some work on.
    
    First, I have a 150' dirt driveway. The driveway is on a downward slope
    and is prone to heavy water runnoff from the street. The driveway
    forks at the bottom. 
    
    I've been to several quarrys and gravel sites. They all recommend
    that I spread a 4" base of 1 1/2" Chrushed Stone. They claim that
    this is the only thing that will hold heavy car usage (which there
    is) and alleviate me of the water problem. 
    
    However, my wife is not very impressed with the "looks".  We have
    heard that bluestone is very nice looking and is also a decent
    driveway base, not prone to water problems.
    
    We have decided that we do not want to pave the driveway, we live
    on a cul-de-sac and set back in the woods.
    
    Questions:  1) Which is better, chrushed gravel or bluestone
    
                2) Any dealers in Southern NH that provide bluestone
    
                3) Which is larger, a yard or a ton   
    
    Thanks,
    
                -Mike
    

	I like what I've read of the benefits of using Starpack long/short term.
	Our driveway is rather short and steep and down from the street level.  
	I've had to re-graded the gravel/sand base several times during this 
	summer due to erosion.  Liveable but would like to improve upon this 
	before our first winter.  We would like to retain the non-hot top
	appearance and are considering Starpack.  The question(s) I have are:
		What's the preferred pre-starpack treatment?
		Do I need to import crushed stone before spreading the Starpack
		What size?  How much?
		Then how much/thick Starpack should we use?
		Should we expect this to be a slick, (as in, fine sand on
			a paved surface), the concern being for safe 
			passage of bicycles and motorcycles, reasonable
			speeds assumed?
		Is it advisable to apply the portland before, during or
		after the packing process.
		Should we expect standing puddles or does it drain well?
	We are in another regrade process now and appreciate any help/answers.

Frank

I had a load of 3/4 stone delivered yesterday as a base for our driveway and
some other drainage areas.  FYI the delivered costs from Watertown Trucking
was about $12.20/ton or about $18.25/yard, that's for one load of 33 tons.
I spread it last night, ~4 inches all over.  First impression is very nice in
appearance and since it was pouring, it was real nice not to be tracking in
muddy/gravel.  Driving on it is fine but since it hasn't been packed yet, 
turning the wheels displaces the stone and the wheels do sink in it a bit, I
may have spread it too thick.  I'll have a better feel after packing it and 
driving on it for 1-2 weeks.  The next step will be final leveling/grading and
adding a 2"-3" top coat of starpack.  BTW, Keating Paving supplies out of 
Dracut, Ma is running a sale on starpack marked down from $10.50 per ton to
$4.50 per ton, plus $85 per load for transportation to Westford, Ma.  I'm not 
sure of the exact ton/yard ratio but it's around 1.5 tons per yard.  If anyone 
out there has better figures, please post them.  I'll be posting the progress 
as it's made.

Frank

OK spring has sprung and as promised here's what I've achieved/experienced.
		(see previous note for sub-surface preparation)  
I spread a 2"-3" semi-packed layer of starpack over the entire driveway.  This 
was done during the 1st week of Dec..  The starpack was literally freezing as 
it was spread therefore only semi-packed.  The overall fininsh seemed pretty 
good.  However, the January thaw resulted in the semi-packed starpack to become
muddy.  This lasted for about 3-4 days during this time the starpack settled
into the sub-layer of 3/4 stone and most of the water evaporated.  The snow
tires tracked in quite a bit of the mud, once dry swept out easily. Naturally, 
the driveway ended up quite rutted and needed re-leveling.  I used two methods
of snow removal.  I used a Bobcat bucketloader which works great but requires
some caution with the bucket angle or it will dig in, removing the star-pack.
I also used a snow thrower, this worked fine with a minimum of starpack being
removed.  Since then it's packed very well.  The surface is *VERY* hard and 
smooth, very pavement-like.  On wet days we do experience some tracking into 
the house mostly absorbed wiping ones' feet on the the door mat, (convince a
3yr old boy :-)  ).  During these heavy rains we've had lately, there's some 
unsightly splashing of star-mud onto the garage doors.  I'll be putting down 
another inch or two of 3/4 stone immediately in front of the garage doors which 
will take care of that nicely.  I am happy to report that there is no 
noticeable eroding anywhere.  Sooo would I do it again..  yes with the follow-
in changes.

	o	Perform the entire operation during warm weather
		 (wet days for the stone and dry for the star-pack)
	o	Remove all loam and mud producing dirt
	o	Use a base of 3-4 inches of 3/4 stone, compact with a roller
			preferrably a ride-on unit with some weight (rental)
	o	Apply ~3 inches of *WELL* compacted/rolled star-pack
	o	Apply an additional compacted layer of 3/4 stone in the walking 
		and drip line areas

This is a lot of work and it is less durable than pavement hot-top and or
concrete.  However, it is also pleasing to look at, relatively easily 
maintained once established and beats the cost of some of the alternatives by 
about $3K-$4K.  

Now_on_to_lawn-n-landscaping
Frank

    First reply in this conference since, as of 2 weeks ago, we bought
    our first house....many more to come....
    
    I have a 25' x (maybe) 7' driveway which barely holds my 2 cars right
    now.  As it is now, your on the grass getting out of either side of either
    car.  The asphalt is 65% missing in the center and the rest is on
    its way out as soon as I decide on how to do what I want to do.
    I would like to dig up the rest of the exsisting asphalt (the missing
    stuff was "layed" into a walkway in the rear-most of my woodsy backyard).
    Then I would like to widen the driveway about 2 feet on bothsides(4' total)
    (which BTW will bring me within about a foot from the property line
    on the right hand side.)  And I would like to have about 2" of crushed
    stone dumped there which I estimate to be about 1.5 yards.  
    (9.22/yd + 23/delivery = very affordable !)
    
    1.  There is just a sand base under the exsisting asphalt and at the
        blank spots now.  Any further prep needed??
    
    2.  What IS the best way to keep the stone in the driveway and not
        on the grass or my neighbors grass?  Railroad ties?? or maybe
        landscaping bricks? (the ones with the scalloped tops?)
        I want to go really inexpensive here, but it is a small area.
    
    3.  I need a sturdy "wall" or something to keep the cars from going
        down the slopeing forward hill to the back yard.  Railroad ties
        again??  maybe attached to each other 2x2??  Any other ideas
        that will blend in with the rest of the driveway border??   This
        will just have to be at the front of the driveway.
    
    4.  Will 2" be sufficient enough to last a while and look good.
        It'll be cheap enough to put another inch or 2 down again in
        the future when it needs it, but I feel any thicker than 2"
        to begin with with be like "driving on marbles".
    
    5.  As the driveway slopes down toward the front, will I have a problem
        with the stone collecting at the front and having to be raked
        back up the driveway often? (only about a 10% slope)

  We have a problem with water accumulating on our driveway. The
  situation is moderately complicated:

  o The driveway is a common drive shared by our property and our
    neighbor's. Both deeds have easements and betterments to this effect.

  o Surface water crosses the driveway from our side (the high side) to
    their side (the low side). This water flows onto our property from
    runoff from the street (in fact, it comes from the properties on the
    far side of the street), which is higher than both properties.

  o The pitch of the driveway is very gentle (the previous and several
    other paving contractors said that they couldn't make its low point
    any lower, though I never found out exactly why -- I wasn't in on
    any of the conversations).

  o The gentle pitch and water flow situation have several consequences.
    One is that water runs off the driveway very slowly, so the kids get
    to ice skate on it in the winter, and the mosquitoes lay eggs on it
    all other times of the year.

  o Another consequence is that, on bad days, water runs right into both
    garages and basements.

  I'm looking for a permanent solution to this problem. Several actions
  come to mind, all of which involve a new driveway:

  1. Excavate the low point (which is midway between the houses and the
     street) to increase the pitch and encourage water to flow away from
     the houses more quickly.

  2. Build the drive with a moderate "crown", and add a culvert to
     provide drainage for the water which wants to flow across the
     driveway (the runoff region on the low side is a small creek, and
     provides adequate drainage).

  3. Do all of the above.

  I've been told that a culvert is a bad idea, because (1) it's
  expensive, and (2) it will allow water to flow under the driveway,
  which is obviously bad news. Several contractors told us that the best
  solution was what we already have: i.e., as steep a pitch as the land
  allows (we're told we might get another inch or two), and no culvert.

  What am I missing here? We're considering calling in an engineer, but
  decided to seek the combined wisdom of HOME_WORK participants first.

    What about gravel?  Another alternative is to dig out the current
    driveway, put in a drain pipe leading to the creek, and then start
    adding gravel.  You may have to add a load of gravel every year or so
    for a few years till things stabilize, but that should help...
    
    Willie

  Thanks for the suggestion, Willie, but it was gravel before it was
  paved, and that was even worse, because in addition to the problems we
  have now, we had the usual mud-formation you get in the Spring with
  gravel. The drain would help, though, because at least it would handle
  the water which is trying to cross the driveway. But we'd still have
  rain/snow and the basements to deal with. What I can't quite figure
  out, though, is why are the paving contractors so averse to putting in
  a culvert ("drain pipe")?

    
    My brother has a drainage ditch that runs along the side of the road,
    and through a culvert under each driveway in the street. Every few years,
    frost pushes the culverts up out of the ground, and the town has to come
    and replace them all.
    

I don't think the DEQE would allow you to increase the runoff from your driveway
(and the road) into a creek.  (If they found out.)  Something you might consider
is to have a paver place a blacktop curb to each side of the drive for some 
reasonable distance.  Then put a slight rise at the end of the driveway.  If I'm
picturing the situation correctly, this might divert the runoff from across the
street to a point where it bypasses the driveway completely.

  JP- There's already a rise (actually, a curb installed by the town) at
  the street end of the driveway. It's supposed to direct water from
  across the street into a drain, instead of flowing onto our property.
  But it still flows onto our property, because the curb is only about
  three inches higher than the street. If it were any higher, it would
  be very difficult to get in/out of the driveway.

  Also, water which flows onto our property already flows into the creek
  (in fact, it *is* the creek) by flowing across our driveway. So a
  drain under the driveway won't add water to the creek, it will just
  give the creek (which is, at the moment, dammed by our driveway) freer
  flow. We all know what dams do: they form lakes. In the Spring, the
  land on our side of the driveway becomes a small, mosquito-infested
  pond. It doesn't dry out until late August.

  Too bad the DEQE didn't exist at the time our house was built, or they
  wouldn't have allowed the builder to dam the creek with a driveway.

  There's no possibility to divert the water around the house or in any
  other direction, because there's much higher ground in all other
  directions. Is our only choice really to allow the creek to flow
  across the driveway as freely as possible? Is this frost heave problem
  with culverts an unsolvable problem? How are culverts under public
  roads built? 

    Instead of a culvert, how about a grating over a low area on the drive.
    In my part of the country, Pittsburgh,PA , this is done in areas where
    it is not feasable to use a culvert because of frost heaving. Instead
    a concrete trough is poured, with the grating making a little bridge.
    They are generally a foot wide and about four to six inches deep.
    

  Now there's an excellent idea! I'll discuss this with the next paving
  contractor who comes to do an estimate.

    The grating is fine until winter.  When it rains in the spring, the
    drain will be forze up and the only place for the water to go will be
    on the surface.  That's what the current problem is - surface water.

    re -1
    My understanding of the problem was that the driveway crossed a natural
    runoff area and the goal was to get the water from one side of the
    driveway to the other. The grating does not have a drain, it just
    provides a watercourse that you can drive a car over. After the water
    gets to the other side I understand that it goes into a small creek. If
    it is icy enough for the whole thing to fill with ice and freeze up,
    the entire driveway and streets will be just as bad.
    Sandy
    

    Well, I think you're forgetting that the driveway and street are
    relatively clear - they've been plowed and shoveled.  Now you've
    snowbanks forming a dam.
    
    Don't think the grates gonna help you then.

In looking through 1111, it seems that this is the logical place for my question.
I was wondering what those people who have used the interlocking-style paving
bricks or stones think about them now.  Would you use them again?  How have
you handled such items as snow shovelling (do the stones raise and make it hard
to shovel/plow?), oil dripping, frost heaves (do these heave or stay flat?).

How would these be different in installation and care from a straight blacktop
or concrete driveway?

I am guessing that they would be more expensive, but it seems the looks would
justify some added expense.  However, if the added cost is also going to cause
far more work in maintenance, then maybe it is not to be used.

I am not in a position to put the driveway in right now.  I am going to have to
live with a sand driveway (mud when it rains) for a while longer.  But, I want
to take this time to investigate valid driveway options.

Ed..

    Can any experts (would-be or otherwise ;-) ) help me with some
    information?
    
    	I need to redo my dirt driveway. The drive is about 1000 feet long
    and hot top is not an option. I am looking to put a final cover on it
    consisting of either Starpack or (as recommended by my contractor)
    "processed gravel". I am looking for information as to what the best
    option would be. My main concerns are:
    
    		* good traction in winter
    		* good resistance to erosion
    		* good resistance to snow plow blades
    		* won't rut out in springtime
    		* won't get dusty in dry seasons
    		* low maintenance
    
    	I am told that "processed gravel" will pack as well as Starpack,
    but will cost a little less. Also the color will be brown, rather than
    the grey of Starpack. The main question of the day is: Is "processed
    gravel" really as good as Starpack? Another good question is: Given
    that any asphault is not an option, is there any other surface material
    that I should consider?
    
    
    						thanks in advance,
    						Mark

    
    Try putting down a layer of #1 crushed stone. It's about 1/2" in
    diamater. Then put stone dust on top of that. The stone dust will keep
    the stone packed down real good. And during the winter it will really
    get hard packed down.
    
    Mike

    But none of that stuff will stand up to the plow blade very well.
    
    Why can't you use asphalt?  Is there a budget limitation on this
    project?
    
    -al

    Budget limitations are not really the problem, the town conservation
    commission and DEP are. The driveway is really a Right Of Way over the
    town conservation land. In addition it is all within 100 feet of
    wetlands. I am doing plenty of other work and don't really want to push
    a paved road across the table before the conservation comission.
    
    	Another reason for avoiding a paved driveway has to do with my
    experiences using such driveways in winter. This drive will be loooong
    (1000 feet or more) curved and steep in places. In addition is will be
    shaded by plenty of trees. After living previously with a steep paved
    drive and a steep unpaved drive I am convinced that the unpaved drive
    offers far superior traction in winter. 
    
    

>>    drive and a steep unpaved drive I am convinced that the unpaved drive
>>    offers far superior traction in winter. 

Ya because of all the ruts that end up in it :-)

>>    town conservation land. In addition it is all within 100 feet of
>>    wetlands. I am doing plenty of other work and don't really want to push

Is there a DEP ruling on this?  My driveway goes across a wetlands area but the
builder had to get a dredge and fill permit to put it in.  I was going to have
the 250 or so feet of it paved last year - and I was never going to get the
town involved. 

bjm

    In Mass., any work in the 100 foot buffer zone has to be reviewed
    by the local conservation commission. The buffer zone starts at the end
    of the wetlands.
    
    I would not think that a paved driveway would be a big
    deal...but...check anyway.
    
    I was on the local, Grafton Mass. conservation board for one year.
    
    Marc H.

One more question about the gravel & stone dust treatment, as well as any other
ideas you might have:

What about tracking?  Does the addition of stone dust mean that during the wet
season I'll be tracking muck into the house all the time?  

    Re: .22
    
    Just yesterday, I had 16 cubic yards of 3/8 gravel delivered to my
    home. I asked the driver what they used for gravel driveways. The
    answer was a mixture of stone dust and gravel( 3/8 inch size). The
    stone dust, once compacted, is like cement.
    
    Marc H.

    Just to answer a few questions from a few replies back:
    
    	My Right of Way was established before the land that it crosses
    became conservation land. The driveway was there before anyone
    understood the value of a wetland. Someday I may seek to pave the drive
    but not now. Both the DEP and the town Conservation Commission have
    approved the work that I have planned.
    
    

    
    Using JUST gravel is too loose. A plow will really dig it up. The stone
    dust helps to really pack it down. A plow will be able to damage it,
    but not that much if it's put down correctly. I've plowed a few of
    those kind of driveways, and never really had a problem with digging up
    the gravel.
    
    Mike

    We had a dirt/gravel drive put in front of our house (I believe it is
    starpack). It has been there about 10 years, and there is only one area
    that could use some filling, but that is near some ledge that could not
    be removed without blasting. We have never had any problem with plowing
    or tracking dirt into the house. Aesthetically, it looks much better
    than our drive to the garages, which is asphalt. Plus, we don't have to
    dump sealer on it every few years. (What happens to sealer anyway, does
    it eventually sink into the ground or what?)
    
    Joseph
    

    re .25
    
    Mike, I appreciate your response. The contractor is proposing
    *processed* gravel, which he contends, will work just like starpack but
    for a few dollars less per yard. I have never seen or heard of
    *processed* gravel and wonder how accurate his claims are.

    What is "starpack"?
    
    Marc H.

    
    Mark,
    
    I'm just getting use to the NE terminology. What NEer's call Gravel,
    NYer's call #1 crushed stone. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what a
    starpack is. I have no idea what processed gravel is either. 
    
    Mike

Isn't starpack just another name for stone dust?

    
    	starpack = stonedust if my understanding is correct.

    Ok, sounds interesting. I've been contemplating having my driveway
    asphalted(?). I currently have a crushed stone driveway and like the
    traction in the winter. My only gripe is the stones require constant
    raking because of the kids bikes (skidding, etc). Who/Where would I
    call to get just the stone dust applied to the existing driveway?
    
    Thanks for any info
    Roger Beauregard
    

    Re: .32
    
    I have used Worchester Sand and Gravel. Just had 16 yards of gravel
    dumped on the end of the driveway.
    
    Try spreading it yourself...good workout!
    
    Marc H.

    I have over 175 tons of 1/2" screenings in my lower driveway for my
    shop. It gets some heavy use with trucks and cars and is solid and alot
    cheaper then asphalt and more durable,
    
    Jim
    
    only drawback:
    It isn't any good for burnouts when we set up a race car or the
    supermodified 4x4 puller       :-)

Does anyone recommend for/against putting a geotextile under the gravel?
That's that tyvek-like stuff that lets water through but stops weeds and
keeps the gravel/starpack and underlaying dirt from mixing.  

	Thanks,
	Larry

    Last year this time I had 60 yds of processed gravel spread on a 50 X
    75 ft drive way, which had a fairly steep pitch. This drive used to
    washout on a regular basis. The gravel was spread by a bob cat, and
    packed by running the bob cat and a 10 wheel dump truck over it. 3 days
    later hurricane bob hit, I went out and watched as the water pouring
    over the top, it looked like it was an inch deep. After the storm,
    there was not a sign of any washing out.
    
    What is processed gravel ? as it was explained to me, it is gravel with
    sized, crushed stone mixed in to about a 50/50 ratio.
    
    What is star pack, I beleave what you get now is what used to be called
    cursher waste, it is the by probuct of crushing stone, and use to be
    real cheep. It is a mixture of fron 3/4 in stone to stone dust, and yes
    it will pack as solid as a rock, and is much better than crushed stone,
    which will never pack solid, unless it packes into the base material.
    
    I wouldn't bother with geotextile under the gravel/starpack. If the 
    base material is lose, then the geotextile is not going to stop the
    mixing of the base to surface materials, and I don't think you would
    weant to stop this mix. As for stopping the weeds, they are not going
    to grow through the top cote. The weeds are going to grow in (as in
    from the top) the top cote.
    
    There is no way I would reccomend spreading either of these materials
    by hand. When asking for bids on the material, ask for it in place
    (spread), I think you will be supprised how cheep (compaired to you
    labor) ithe spreading will be.
    
    Now if you really want to do it right, rent a Bowmag compound roller.
    This thing looks like a big oversized lawn roler with two rollers and a
    motor, which you walk behind and steer. In reality, the motor not only
    drives the rollers, but vibrates them also, so the thing acts like it
    weighs 25+tons, wnd when you are through, the surface will be like
    stone.
    
    Good luck
    Les

    I would like to install a real cobblestone driveway for a house in
    Massachusetts. I'd like hints on the building process and costs.
    Because of the driveway configuration, I can get away with only putting
    the cobblestones on a stretch that is approximately 100 ft.  or  if the
    price is so exorbitantly expensive maybe I'd just install aprons where
    the driveway meets the road and leave the rest gravel.
    
    Oh, by the way I wanted to use used granite cobblestones as the house
    is historic.

  There was an article in the Globe a couple of months ago about a place in Mass.
that has old cobblestones from downtown Boston that can be purchased relatively
cheaply.  I don't think they deliver though.  I will try to remember to get
the article.
	Linda

    Phil -
    Precourt in Sudbury (on Union Ave.) is a source
    for both material and advice.  We bought cobblestones
    from them a few years ago. I don't remember the
    cost off the top of my head.  I believe they said
    that the stones were being removed from the docks
    area of Boston.
    	Dick
    

    
    
    	?????? How are you going to get the snow (remember snow?) off of
    them in the winter?????

There's a place on Route 1 in Saugus (I think at the Walnut Street 
exit) that has mountains of cobblestones.  If I remember correctly,
small stones (8-10" or so) were $0.85 each and large stones (12-14" 
or so) were $1.25.  It may have been called New England Landscaping?

                                           -Jim-

    As to the question about plowing snow over cobblestones...
    We would handle this problem in a similar fashion to plowing over a
    stonedust or gravel driveway (especially a driveway that has a crown).
    We ask our plowing person to either drag the plow backwards which does
    a pretty good job of scraping the snow away without taking the
    stonedust or gravel off the drive. The better method is to ask the
    plow man only come when the snow is over 6 inches, or to raise the plow
    so that it never hits the base gravel surface.
    

    I checked with the following vendors that were recommended:
    
    PRECOURT's of Sudbury, Ma. (508)443-6717
    
    Cobblestone Dimensions - 12" X 4" Top Face, 8" Deep (1" tolerance)
                              30 lbs.  ea.
    
    2.4 - 3 stones per square foot
    
    $140/Ton delivered    Need 72,000 lbs.     Approx. $5,200 - $5,500 
                              2400 stones
    
    =================================================================
    
    NEW ENGLAND LANDSCAPING of Saugus, Ma. (617)233-9234
    
    Cobbles normally run $1.25 ea.    $100/Ton Wholesale price
    
    Recommend a trailerload = 2,500 Tons  approx. 3,500 stones
    
    Delivered price approx. $2,360       (.65 - .70 ea. + $85.00 delivery)
    
    
    Recommend 2" stone dust base   $18/Ton for full truckload
   

>    Recommend a trailerload = 2,500 Tons  approx. 3,500 stones

There's either something wrong here, or those are mighty heavy stones
(and a mighty heavy trailer).

    I did my "driveway" in cobblestones two summers ago. It is 10'x33',
    basically a large parking space. It took 707 stones. I paid $220 for 
    materials, including 2 tons of fine sand for the bed plus filling
    the gaps between stones. I got an estimate of $12.00 per sq ft, or
    $3960, for the installed driveway. I did the work myself, and I consider
    that to be a fair price. The driveway is very pretty. Also, there is
    a small crowbar under there someplace, but I considered a day's progress
    in place far more valuable than the crowbar.

    I feel you have to be part gorilla to tackle this kind of a job yourself. 
    I found out about all kinds of muscles that I didn't know that I had.
    Also, be *absolutely sure* to wear heavy leather gloves when you are
    working with the stones. Also, be *sure* not to wear any rings or other
    jewelry when working with the stones. It is unbelievably easy to smash a 
    finger or a whole hand between two or more of them, and jewelry can add 
    to the injury. You might also consider using a weight-lifter's belt.

    I put in cobblestones because the asphalt was being broken up continually 
    in the early Spring by upwelling meltwater. They solved that problem very
    nicely. In the winter I shovel the driveway going at an angle to the align-
    ment of the stones and I glide the shovel over the tops. This avoids the 
    annoyance of hitting the shovel against the stones a lot. 

>    Cobblestone Dimensions - 12" X 4" Top Face, 8" Deep (1" tolerance)

    Setting the second dimension as the depth is a waste of perfectly good
    stone. I would suggest setting them 12"x 8" with 4" depth, unless you
    are *really* into building an 18th century town street. BTW, your average
    cobblestone is a lot smaller than that. Typical dimensions are 6"x 6"x 4"
    and they weigh about 16 lb each. (Thus the origin of the British unit
    of dry weight, the "stone".) I have some of the big stones, and I used 
    them for the margins. They look very pretty that way. Also, BTW all
    authentic 18th century New England driveways that I am aware of have
    all been unpaved, i.e. just bare ground, and they never looked nice.

Nit: a stone (the unit of weight) is 14 lbs.

    Hello all,
    
      My driveway is getting very soft and muddy that at one time, my
    car got stuck there for a minute. The previous owner laid down stone
    dust. The septic tank is located under the driveway, approximately 
    4 feet deep. I don't want to use hard-top even though it is convenience
    while shovelling snows. Because of this, if anything happens to the
    tank, hard-top will need to dug out again and re-pave it. 
    
    Are there any other alternative by harden the driveway so that muddy
    and soft surface would not be a burden.
    
    Thanks for your advises,
    
    Dave
    

	Gravel?

check the keyword listings - there are several notes on driveways.

bjm - who has been checking them out....

    
    Nice place for the tank!!  Can you move the driveway?
    
    Gravel might work but if the water is standing around,
    it might get just as bad.  Your best bet would be to
    dig down a little.  Put stone down and then some gravel.
    Then if you'd like, put down some stone dust..
    
    JD

     FWIW, I wouldn't put much hope in that gravel over dirt.
     My father-in-law dumped untold dump trucks of gravel (larger sized)
     on his driveway, and it's *still* soft and muddy in the spring. 

     IMHO - Move the driveway *away* from the septic tank and pave it!

     Brian

    
    I'm dealing w/driveway problems, too. here's what I found using the
    Keyword index in 1111.*
    
    
           <<< 12DOT2::NOTES$STUFF:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Home_work >-
================================================================================
Note 1111.33  Home_work keyword directory - see reply #1 for details   33 of 113
EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-los" 26 lines  27-OCT-1991 17:07
                                 -< DRIVEWAYS >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Topic  Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   131    12  Hot-Top Driveway Widening
   709    18  Driveway re-paving... costs?
   837     2  The Sounds of Driveways
   916    22  What to do with mud driveway?
   944   106  Sealing a driveway
   955    22  Driveways: asphalt vs concrete
   957    26  Removing blacktop
  1071     9  << Driveway Repair Material >>
  1507     5  Asphalt Repair
  1512     2  DIY blacktop walk
  1514    15  Gravel driveway - what kind of gravel?
  1574    34  heated driveway
  1610     6  driveways : paving stones
  1809    12  Repaving - disposal of old asphalt
  1930     8  Stone dust alternative to concrete/asphalt?
  2168    18  Stone dust (Starpack) for driveways?
  2327     8  OIL STAIN ON DRIVEWAY-REMOVAL
  2331     3  DIY Driveway Paving
  2875    22  To Sweep snow or not to sweep snow
  3218    10  Weeds through new Driveway
  3661    32  Snow removal pros and cons for novice Californian
  3772     7  How to remove Rust on Asphalt Driveway
  4333     5  PATCH TAR ?
  4365    37  Cement vs. Blacktop for driveway

	I had got an estimate yesterday on paving my driveway.  To pave the
entire 466' would cost $8000.  Since the first 400' is really part of a class VI
road I'm thinking of using something called knit-pack or knit-pak on that
section rather than pavement.  Knit-pak is recycled crushed asphalt that gives a
surface similar to stone dust, from what I understand.

	Does anyone have any experience with knit-pak?  Good?  Bad?, Is it
durable?  What kind of care is required?

Thanks,

George

    George,
    
    I just had a 30 ton load of crusher run delivered for my DW.  This is a
    mix of stone dust and stone and it packs like cement.  For 30 ton and
    delivery it cost me 275.00.  Of course I have to spread it.  
    
    I can't help on the knit-pack.  
    
    Cheers,
    
    Mark
    

    Are snow plows and/or snow blowers likely to dig up the mixed stone
    dust and cement?  I'm planning on paving my small (38' long) driveway
    to get a solid smooth surface (and also in hopes that the darker
    surface helps the ice to melt), but I'm certainly not adverse to 
    something cheaper if it is nearly as good.
    
    	Thanks,
    	Larry

If you go with stone dust, take the money you save and buy a carpet shampoo
machine.

re: .19

If it were me, I would ask the contractor for a reference of someone for whom 
he's done this. Ask them what they think about it and check it out for yourself 
to see if it's something you can live with.

Just my two cents.

    
    Is that estimate including a finish coat along the entire length of the
    driveway? Maybe you can knock it down a bit by leaving a large part of
    it with just the rough coat of asphalt and just finishing off a section 
    near the house. 
    
    Steve B.

I didn't see quite what I wanted on notes dealing with driveways...

I am looking for a non-stone alternative to black asphalt driveways.  
Concrete is also not an option.

Two questions:

- does asphalt have to be black?  

- has anyone had any experience with the hot tar/stone top (I know there's
  a name for it) that I saw on a TOH episode?  I'm concerned about
  plowing and general sturdiness?  This does come in a variety of stone
  colors.


tnx

Chris

    The tar/stone business is the original macadam pavement, as I recall.
    The streets in the neighborhood where my parents live (Williamstown,
    Mass.) are paved that way, and always have been (since the early
    '50s.)  They've gotten an occational reapplication of tar and stones 
    over the years, but they've stood up very well to traffic and town
    snowplows.  

    A friend of mine builds colonial reproduction homes.  He always had a
    problem with the look of hot top.  What he does is paves and then has a
    type of stone and stone dust rolled into the fresh hot top.  It ends up
    a very nice gray color and holds up as good as any paved drive would. 
    
    It really looks nice.
    
    Mark
    

    It also tracks very nicely onto your nice floors and scratches them
    to death in a short time. (Re stone/stone dust)
    
    It also makes for a fine mess when you track it in when it is wet
    
    
    					/Dave
    

But .2 said that the stone dust was rolled into the new pavement.  I would
expect that that would bind it together and stop the tracking problem.

George

    There is no tracking with this.  It is trapped in the pavement.  These
    homes are 500K +.  They all have wide pine floors (read soft) and I
    doubt very much the new owners would tollerate the stuff tracked onto
    their new floors.
    
    It is a very nice finish.  A friend of mine in Sherborn just had her
    drive done.  The finished product looks very nice.  
    
    Also, these drives are plowed just like any pavement drive would be
    plowed.  
    
    Mark
    

This sounds like the stuff they used on This Old House.  You may want to check
that note.

Elaine

Does this leave the surface of the drive like 000 sandpaper?  I remember falling
off my bike onto our street which was paved with tar and crushed stone on top.
Boy would that hurt.

Another question.  What do folks with these drives do when its time to apply
driveway sealer.  Do you lose the whole effect then or sprinkle dust on top
of the wet sealer?

-Bob

    
    I don't think you would seal this, it would completely defeat the
    purpose.  Sealers are black as far as I know.  The driveway after this
    treatment is a soft grey color.  I guess if you wanted you could do a
    thompson water sealer or something like that but I would think that
    would cost a fortune and I don't know if it would have any effect on
    it as far as sealing it.  I also have no idea how it would react to a
    petoleum base.    
    
    Re how rough is the final surface.  It is a little rougher then
    just reg pavement.  It's not that bad.  I have to say it is a personal
    preferance.  I know that when I redo my driveway I will have it treated
    this way.  I do not like the look of black pavement.  This gives the
    look of a more natural surface.  
    
    Right now my driveway is crusher run. It's cheap, looks nice and is 
    serving it's purpose until I have enough $$ to put down a proper 
    driveway.  The stuff packs like cement and I have to say I have no 
    problem with it tracking.  It's been down for about 2 months.    
    
    Where do you live?  If you want to look at this type of a surface I can
    give you the address of a house that had it done 10 years ago.  It will
    give you and idea of what it will look like.  The address would be for
    the builders house.  He has since moved but it would be pretty easy for
    you to take a look at it.  It's a long driveway that is at least a
    150 feet to the house and then another 200+ feet to the barn
    (workshop/parking area).
    
    
    Mark
    
    

I know you said concrete isn't an option, but you can get it in different 
colors.  It's not cheap, but it can look very nice.  I've seen drives done 
with sculptured, colored (grey) concrete that looked like paving stones.

Just thought I'd mention it....

Stu

    How about a landscape timber driveway?   
    
    You can stain it any color...
    
    and if it gets gross you can buy some of that plastic grass 
    ( you know the stuff that some people resurface their decks with ).  
    It comes in all kinds of colors these days.  : )
    
    Or.... How about if we quit our jobs and create "Driveway Linoleum"?
    Sounds like there's a market out there for some: all-weather, no-slip, 
    low-glare, low-care, driveway wear.
    
    
    ** Take this note seriously at your own risk. **
    
    Regards,
    
    Dave
    
    
    
    
    
    

	This turned out to be a little long so please bear with me.

Here's the problem.  My driveway is 400 ft long, has about a 15 degree descent 
towards the house, and is asphalt that is in terrible shape.  It's in bad shape 
because of two drainage problems.  The first is a drainage pipe at the head of 
the driveway that is an outlet for my neighbors french drain system.  When the 
drain was put in, the house did not exist, then when they built the house they 
didn't allow for the water from the drain.  The other problem is that on 
that same side there is a hill.  Water leaches out of the hill and runs over 
the surface of the driveway.  Not fun when the temp goes below 32 degrees F.
My neighbor and I have put in a flexible corrugated PVC pipe from the house 
drain to a point where the water will, for the most part, run down the side of 
the driveway rather than over the top.  That stopped the pipe problem and 
that's how I found out about the leaching problem.

	My question is what are my most cost-effective options for handling 
the water?  The pipe is a temporary solution.  Will a simple trench down the 
side of the drive work?  Should it be filled with crushed stone.  Or is it more 
complicated than just digging a trench.  Any solution I use needs to be 
compatible with the future excavating and repaving (or probably using recycled
asphalt).  For instance, I'm concerned that if I did simply dig a trench, that 
would still allow water to infiltrate under the drive and still cause heaving 
problems.  One paving company called for a cement culvert but that is mega $$$.

Thanks,

George

For the seeping:

Dig a ditch in the area of the seepage so that it intercepts the flow, to where
you want the water to drain.  Add a layer of crushed stone.  Add a drain
pipe (either PVC sewer pipe with holes or the black flexible stuff with holes)
sloped so water in the pipe will flow to where you want the water to go.
Fill ditch with crushed stone.

I had this problem (wet area at base of hill oozing water onto driveway
where it froze) and did the above.  Amazing the water I get coming out of
there.

How deep, wide does the ditch need to be?  If I dig it about 1 1/2' deep with
bout 6" of stone the pipe and then more stone will that be ok?  Is freezing a
problem so that I'd need to go down 3 feet'

George

The top of my pipe is only down a couple inches.  Right now it's not doing
anything as the ground is frozen, but when it's this frozen I didn't have
problems.  It's when things thaw the pipe shows its worth.
If you don't get water when things are kind of frozen (like until now)
this may work for you.

The width of the ditch is the width of the backhoe's shovel (about a foot)

Be sure there's a slope right after the drain end of the pipe so the water has
a chance to drain away before it freezes else a sudden cold snap will dam
the pipe with ice.

-Mike

    	My property has/had a simliar problem: The house is at the bottom
    	of a 'wet' hill & the soil contains way too much clay to provide
    	any drainage.
    
    	I tried the trench routine but that was high maintenance and not
    	the most reliable. It would often fill with leaves during heavy
    	and/or extended rains and freeze with ice damns during freeze/thaw 
    	cycles thereby making it totally worthless.
    
    	My successful fix was a 12" corrugated ABS pipe burried 2' under
    	(deep enough to protect it from any extreme cold in eastern Mass) 
    	running the length of my property with surface drains at critical 
    	points. The pipe is wide enough to allow the free flow of leaves
    	and small twigs that make it past the grates. Loose sand collects
    	at the bottom of the pit (I've had to clean this out twice in the 8
    	years since I installed it)
    
    	I forget the cost of the pipe (maybe ~$2.00 ln/ft) but it's much 
    	less for 8", 6" & 4" diameters. Make sure you size the pipe 
    	accordingly for the pitch & volume of water.
    
    	Crushed stone with a tile drain setup is okay but eventually the 
        stone collects dirt and junk and it all becomes totally useless.
    
    	Somerville Lumber (Ma & NH lumber yards) carries a line of ABS
    	surface drains that are highly customizable and are sturdy enough
    	to be driven over. I wish they were available when I built mine
    	from 8" x 16" cement blocks and steel grates. :(
    	
    	Try pricing the parts yourself and just hiring a local backhoe
    	operator for a few hours. Unless you have ledge or big rocks it
    	would probably be less than a one day job.
    
    
    	Glenn

    Hi All,
    
    I just got 2 very different quotes from Gravel companies.  I was asking
    for the amount of Star Pack needed for a driveway that has the
    following dimensions - 180' x 12' x 4".  One place told me 40 tons
    while the other said 25 tons.  Well which is it??  Does anyone know the
    formula to figure this out??
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kevin

	The biggest mistake that people make with starpack is putting down 
	to much. The most you put down is 1-1/2 to 2 inches over a base of 
	gravel (NOT crushed stone). A ton of starpack will give 2" cover 
	over a 100 sq-ft area. 

	For your driveway (2160 sq-ft) you would need around 21 tons. 
	the contractor that quoted 25 is in the ball park. The 40tons 
	is for 4" but that is to thick. 

	Paul

Er, what is "starpack"?

  2168  CIMNET::NMILLER      31-MAR-1988    18  Stone dust (Starpack) for driveways?

    Instead of starpack, try Perkpack. Perkpack has 1/4,1/2,and 3/4" 
    stone mixed in the stonedust. They use it to line septic system
    leach fields. I've got a access road that I put perkpack on and
    you can put down 3-4" without running into rut problems. The 
    stones tend to give you more support and and keeps the stone
    dust from shifting. Its rock hard in the late spring-fall and
    slightly mushy (although driveable) in the late winter early
    spring. 
    
    Ray

I'm also making plans to get a large driveway done this spring.

starpack, perkpack, knitpack, stonedust, gravel, and oh yeah, asphalt and
probably couple of others that I've forgotten....this is getting more
complicated than figuring out how to miter cut cornice moldings

:-)

George

	The choice for materials for redoing my driveway is down to recycled
asphalt or stonepack, sometimes called knitpack.  Since this is going to be a
lot of money - even without asphalt - I want to get as much info as I can. I'd
like to her from people who have had these materials installed the last few
years - 

- how long have you had it
- how does it hold up overall
- how is it with a plow or snowblower
- what is it like this time of year - soft? does it get tire ruts
- how hard is it
- has anyone used them as a base for paving later on?  any problems?

	I'm leaning towards the recycled asphalt I hear it gets harder and is a
better paving surface than stonepack.  

	Also if you have any of these materials, would you mind if I drove by
and took a look at your driveway?  You can contact me via email if you prefer.

Thanks,

George

    
    One of the biggest concerns is "what's underneath". The builder of my
    my house (and it's very long driveway) laid down layer after layer of
    of starpack. Finally, when I bought the house I had someone in to 
    check it out who told me that he should have scraped down into the
    hardpack (remove all loam) and then build up with large stove (3" or
    so) and then smaller stuff, and THEN starpack/stonedust. 
    
    I had this same person redo a (mudbog) turn-around for me just as he
    described and it currently is the only dependably solid part of my
    driveway.
    
    By the way, who have you talked to about "recycled asphalt"... that's 
    a new option I might be interested in.
    
    								- Mac

Re -1
	The entire drive will be excavated about 12" and then the RAP put in.
One person I've talked to about starpack said he would excavate and then put in 
12" of starpack but I thought I read in here that that should only be applied in
a 2" or 4" layer over a base of stone.  One thing I've found is that not many 
of the companies up here have heard of starpack.  Who did you use?

	I've talked to Hudson Paving and DLB about RAP. 

George

RE: .11  Three years ago I was also looking to doing something with
the mud bog that was my driveway.. Talked to guy in Spencer that worked
for Granger Asphalt and also had a small landscaping business on the
side. He convinced us that the recycled aspahlt was *almost* as good as
the real thing.
       We decided to go with it, he dug out the loam (12-15"?) and put 
down 9-10" gravel, then topped it off with 4-5" recycled asphalt, then
took a roller and packed it.. (the kind of roller you drive)  

It looked real good and was almost as hard as hot-top..

all set right?  wrong .. Wife started to complain about these black/brown
marks on the new (almost white) kitchen floor.. Bottom line is little 
chunks of this stuff would get on your shoes (no matter how much you wiped
your feet) and it was almost impossible to get off the inlaid..

  On the bright side, within 6 months we had the driveway paved and
the paving contractor said the stuff was a great base and had to do 
no prep work.. Driveway still looks great so far, no cracks or problems..

Dave

    
    Re: .13
    
    	They guy who used starpack was an independent... not a paving 
    	company. He does a lot of grading/clearing work as well as stone
    	driveways and such (no paving). Can't recall his name, but I
    	can check at home if you're interested. Real meticulous guy, 
    	did my turnaround after reshaping/grading most of my property.
    
    Re: -1
    
    	Interesting, that's the first thing I thought of when recycled 
    	asphalt was mentioned. My starpack/stonedust driveway tends to 
    	carry in dust into the house... I wondered how RAP might affect
    	my (ocean of) white tile in the foyer.
    
    								- Mac  

re .15

	Yes I would be interested in his name if you can dig it up.

	I talked to the paving company and they agreed that the RAP will stick
to the bottom of your shoes but that that's the only complaint they know about.
As a base for paving, it packs down "like iron", is one of the best bases and is
$75/ton cheaper than gravel. Maybe I need a sign at each door that says 
"Leave Shoes Here |"
 Before Entry     |
		  V
                  


George

    $75/ton cheaper than gravel?  What's gravel going for these days?
    
    ed

I don't know but I'm sure it isn't that much!  I called a few places for prices
on 3/4" crushed stone and that's only going for $7.75 a ton.  Maybe the person I
spoke to meant $75 cheaper, installed.

George

    
    As promised (just took a while for me to remember) here is the name
    of the grader/excavator who did a great job re-engineering my property
    as well as section of my driveway (and who I'll likely have back to 
    do the entire driveway):
    
    		
    			Johnson's Excavating
    			West Townsend, MA
    			(508) 582-4720
    
    Note: As with virtually every small contractor I've dealt with, it can
    be toguh to get in phone contact... just keep trying and if you don't
    hear back... call again. These two (father and son) are well worth the
    effort to track down.
    
    								- Mac

    
    re .0
    
    Based on the dimensions you gave, the 40 ton quote is correct.  You
    need approximately 26.64 cubic yards of material.  Each ton of starpack
    equals approximately 1.5 cubic yards.  40 / 1.5 = 26.66 yards of
    material.
    
    I suppose whether you need 2 or 4 inches of material depth is
    debatable, but based on the figures you gave, the firm that said you
    needed 40 tons is correct.
    

>    Based on the dimensions you gave, the 40 ton quote is correct.  You
>    need approximately 26.64 cubic yards of material.  Each ton of starpack
>    equals approximately 1.5 cubic yards.  40 / 1.5 = 26.66 yards of
>    material.

You've got something backwards here.

    I'm in the process of deciding what to do with my driveway on a new
    house.  I looked at the embedded stone (they called it chipping) and I
    looked at a process called StreetPrint (tm).  With the streetprint
    process the asphalt gets poured and a form is laid over it and rolled
    into the asphalt imprinting a brick design into the asphalt.  The brick
    imprinted asphalt is then spray painted any color of your choice.  It
    makes a nice design.  Unfortunately, it gets rather pricey.  I think it
    was three times the cost of regular paving.  I'm still trying to decide
    what to do.
    
    Sue 

	I've heard of a new paving process where liquid asphalt is used.  I
believe it is something like, a layer of stne is put down and then liquid
asphalt is poured over the stone and acts like a binder.  My brotehr caught the
end of some report on this process and says that it is supposed to be pretty
good, lasts a long time and is less expensive than normal asphalt .  Anyone know
about what this might be?

George

    -1
    
    That process was demonstrated on ToH, the Victorian in Belmont
    MA show that repeated recently.   I missed how they prepped the 
    base, but the rest of the process was as you describe.  The advantage
    was that it was cheaper because the materials are mixed onsite
    and there is no waste.
    

Re: .21

	This sounds like the type of driveway they used on one
	of the "This Old House" projects last season.

Sounds the same (actually the reverse of) the way many rural roads have
been paved for years in rural NY.  Spread liquid asphalt then crushed stone,
roll the stone with a roller.

    That's how the street I lived on as a child was paved: they put down
    stone dust and then sprayed liquid asphalt over it.  This needed to be
    done every couple of years because the resulting asphlat was pretty
    soft.  The town only did this on streets that were not major
    thoroughfares; at the time I lived there, my u-shaped street didn't
    connect to anything, but there is now a big housing development behind
    it and they seem to use better-grade paving now, probably because the
    road gets a lot more traffic.  Is it good enough for a driveway?  I
    dunno.  I have a very, very steep driveway.  It cost me $$$$$$ to have
    the poor paving job the builder did, which all disintegrated when the
    house was only about ten years old (in fact, it had started to fall
    apart when I bought the place, at which time the pavement was less then
    four years old) replaced with one done right.  On the other hand, if
    you have a flat driveway, you can get away with a lot, or if you don't
    get a lot of frost heaves, etc.
    
    Another thing about the liquid-and-stone-dust paving technique: it is
    amazingly messy!  The liquid asphalt stuff stays soft for several days,
    and gets tracked all over everything.  And it softened a LOT in very
    hot weather.  If you do it, you may want to train your family and
    visitors to leave their shoes on your porch, or you will have a
    miserable cleanup job any time someone tracks some of the goo inside;
    ask my mother!
    
    /Charlotte

    The paving method your describing is called macadam. I have had a 
    macadam driveway for about 10 years. Its layers of increasingly
    smaller stones which are rolled and sprayed with a asphalt emulsion.
    The technique is more resistant to frost heaving, it doesn't crack
    its sort of self healing. The process itself develops an excellent 
    base and its as hard as black top. The cons, it bleeds....It the
    hot summer sun, the asphalt can make little tar bubbles which if you
    step on them will track into your house. Keeping extra stones/sand
    around fixed that. The driveway was 1/3 the cost of blacktop, I have 
    had it renewed, a coating of asphalt and stone. The next time its 
    due for resurfacing I might put a 1" black top fine coat on it. 
    
    Ray 

    	Would putting a sealer on it help with the bleeding problem ?
    Sounds like it would be a tad better than the gravel driveway I have
    now.
    
    	Ray

    
    
      Does anybody know of a company in the Fitchburg/Leominster/Southern
    NH area that does macadam? I live in Townsend, MA and want to get some
    prices but so far haven't found any listing in the yellow pages. Thanx,
    
    
    	-mike
    

Mike:

I'm not sure I understand the difference between macadam and what I got when I
had my driveway tarred.  Mine is a fine gravel/asphalt mix.  

But I had Miller's do mine.  They were my second choice, but the first choice
couldn't guarantee it would be done that season because they were busy, and it
was getting cold.  I did have a minor problem (they busted my water shutoff),
that was promptly resolved at their cost.  Overall, I'm very happy with the job
they did.

I wish I could remember the name of the 1st choice, but all I can remember was
that the owner's father came out for the estimate, and he happened to be the
head of the Lunenburg Highway dept.  

By the way... in the Yellow pages, for some reason, there are 2 sections: 
Driveways and Paving.  Not all contractors are listed in both places.

-jp

    The person that did mine is Pete Tosi. His company is called Driveway
    Maintenance in Sterling Ma.                      

    FWIW, I have no outgassing problems with the material that was 
    used on my driveway. This may be do to the fact that there was
    no overspray, so there was no "exposed" asphalt. BTW, you need 
    to leave the loose stones on top until the asphalt fully cures.
    This can take up to 3 months.

a good one for this summer...

anyone heard of using calcium to keep the dust down on unpaved roads/driveways?

/C

    
    I think it is a calcium salt (calcium carbonate?) and they use it on
    the dirt road we live on. It works very well, but only if it rains once
    in awhile -- each rain causes the dust to re-cement itself together.
    
    So this year it hasn't worked very well at all.
    
    JP

    
    I should add that the result is still very much a dirt road. The only
    difference is that when the stuff is working, you don't get nearly as
    big a dustcloud kicked up behind your vehicle.
    
    JP

John,
Your use of "they" implies that someone other than you applies this stuff.
Is it a private company, town DPW?

I'm stuck on how to find a company in the Yellow Pages.

Any idea on how I would price this stuff?

/Chris

    
    	THAT'S what that white stuff was then, that the Concord DPW
    	was spreading on the Rt. 62 culvert repair work just outside
    	of town center yesterday.
    	 I'd never seen that used before, but dust being raised at that
    	site was pretty bad when I went through. They were just spreading
    	it when I passed and I assume that they would hose it down.
    
    Bob

    	Re:34 and Calcium salt
    
    	Being a salt, wouldn't this make it corrosive to metal ? If so, I
    think I'd rather live with the dust.
    
    	Ray

    Some salts are more corrosive than others -- the halogen salts
    (chlorides and fluorides) tend to be more corrosive than carbonates.

    
    Chris,
    
    In NH we have elected "road agents" rather than a DPW. But he's the
    guy who puts this stuff down.
    
    Andrew is right, it's not calcium carbonate -- it's calcium chloride,
    which is the the same variety of road salt they spread for
    low-temperature ice control. I know it is more expensive than normal
    salt but any hardware store should be able to give you a price...
    
    JP

Anyone ever get hassled by the town over drainage of their driveway? They
claim we have water draining into the road. I've watched the water drain, and
we don't in fact actually drain into the road, but into the brush alongside.

We're just finishing up in Barre, Mass., and this is holding up our occupancy
permit. They are, in my opinion, being awfully picky about this. It's a dirt
road and a dirt driveway. It's one of those so-called "scenic roads", where
the town has some state law to force people to beautify anything they do
along the roadside.

They want us to dig the driveway down until it's level or lower than the
road, which might involve removing 4 feet or more of dirt. The driveway will
be at the bottom of a trench... Not my idea of beautiful, really...

    
    Town code where I am requires that drive way grade pitch away from town
    road for first 15'.  I don't think such an ordinance to be unusual.
    
    This sounds great and it was meant for when roads and driveways were mostly 
    dirt in my opinion (and many town roads still are).  But the town also has 
    an ordinance that first 15' or so must be paved -- so really most home owners 
    pave their driveways.  Its kinda funny seeing paved driveways terminate
    into a dirt town road.  Many driveways pitch up after the first 15' and
    if paved provide quite the sluice way into the road, the last 15' being level 
    or not.  On our street, all meet town code but about 1/2 of them don't meet the 
    idea behind the town code, i.e. to prevent water being dumped onto town road where 
    it subsequently freezes & erosion control.

>    or not.  On our street, all meet town code but about 1/2 of them don't meet the 
>    idea behind the town code, i.e. to prevent water being dumped onto town road where 
>    it subsequently freezes & erosion control.

How interesting. Wish I could say it was unusual, but these guys seem to be
great at the letter of the code, and they stink when it comes to intent.

BTW, an interesting development in my case... I signed an application for a
new driveway, to satisfy their scenic road demands. It said pretty much
nothing except "application for a driveway". Later on, someone at the town
DPW typed in a whole list of terms and conditions that I would have to meet,
but that I never signed. Our lawyer is looking at it. Kind of a sleezy way to
do the town's business, if you ask me.

Well, the whole thing's moot as of now. Our gen'l contractor was nearby with
a big excavator, so he crawled over and fixed the drainage so noone could
possibly complain. He's bringing over one of the town selectmen tomorrow to
look at it. Seems it's common to end run around this DPW goofball, because
he's always trying to pull something shady like this. I bet the selectmen
just love doing his job for him...

    When our common driveway went in, the builder was told by the
    conservation commission  to build swales on either side to channel 
    water from the road.  He did and the DPW guy told the builder to tear 
    them down because they were a hazard to the snow plows!