Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    Ralph,
    
    Sounds familiar. I had the same problem in my first house. Sump
    pump installation can be a DIY job. The first thing to figure out
    is whether the pitch of your basement floor is such that incoming
    water will drain toward one low spot (sounds like that's your case).
    Then, you'll need to create the sump. We rented an air hammer to
    drill through the concrete floor, and then dog out the gravel below
    that. 
    
    Next, you'll have to line the sump so that the walls don't collapse.
    Easiest would be the plactic sump liners, which look like small
    trash cans. Then, line the bottom of the sump with crushed stone
    and screening (to keep crud out of the sump). Your pump drops
    into the sump, and all that's left is to supply power (we had an
    outlet overhead, which we converted to GFI) and to run your waste
    line. We used rigid plastic pipe for the waste line out to a dry
    well DOWNHILL from the house.
    
        

    RALPH,
    
    	YOU CAN INSTALL THE PUMP YOURSELF, HERE IS MY IDEA WHICH IF
    USED BEFORE. I RENTED AN ELECTRIC IMPACT DRILL TO OPEN THE HOLE
    UP. WHAT I DID WAS I WENT TO A MASONARY OUTLET AND BOUGHT A PIECE
    OF 12" PVC SEWER PIPE ABOUT 2 FEET LONG. THIS WILL DEPEND ON HOW
    DEEP YOUR SUMP PUMP IS. I THEN DRILLED HOLES 1/4" DIAM. ALL AROUND
    THE PIPE AND SET IT IN THE HOLE. THEN I PUT OUTDOOR SCREEN AROUND
    THE PIPE TO KEEP OUT FINE SILT AND THE PUT GRAVEL AROUND THE OUT
    SIDE.(SCREEN ON THE INSIDE ATTACHED BY HOME MADE WIRE CLIPS SO THAT
    I COULD CHANGE IT IF IT PLUGED.). I THEN PUT A BASE OF GRAVEL IN
    THE BOTTOM AND SET THE PUMP IN. WORKS JUST FINE.
    

    Remember, once you put that hole in the floor you will have to make
    sure that pump is always operational. You'll know what I mean after
    a big storm and your power goes out, having that large hole will
    let that water come in that much faster.
    

    New-home-owner-syndrome attack!  Our house has a driveway that slopes
    down to a lower level garage.  There is a drain at the front of
    the garage that apparently goes beneath the garage floor to a pump
    at the back of the garage.  Nothing had been done to the sides of
    the yard to prevent them eroding whenever it rained, so we think
    that the pump is full of dirt, and that caused the adjacent family
    room to flood/stink!  We replaced 3 floors of carpet, but want 
    to prevent the same from happening to us, so question is -
    
    What is the likelihood of the pump working again if we just dig
    out the dirt? Or is it probably already burned out & not worth the
    effort?  The house was pretty neglected although only 9 yrs old.
    Would the pump have some sort of automatic shut off when it did
    get blocked that would have prevented it from burning up so that
    it might be salvagable?
    
    Any input/comments/suggestions appreciated.
    

    
    Ok now I know how to put one in, but what do I do with the output
    line?  I don't want to have a rubber hose squirting water all over
    my lawn.  Can I punch a hole through the foundation wall that is
    below ground level and pvc pipe the water to the dry well?  I know
    that I have to lay the pipe down hill, but do I have to have the
    pipe and the hole in the foundation below the frost line? (4 feet
    down)
    	What is the general opinion on sump pumps?  Are people afraid
    to buy houses with sump pumps?  Is a water a couple of time a year
    a good enough reason to put one in?  I'd like to have one in just in
    case a pipe breaks.  Without a floor drain my cellar would be a
    swimming pool.                       

    I bought a sump pump recently while doing an addition some hay fromthe
    footing got in it and it would not turn on, if I unpluged it and
    pluged it back in it would work for awhile, like it reset a breaker.
    I finally cleared out the empeller and kept the hay away from it.
    You possibly can clean it out and get it going again...
    Worth a try.
    Jean
    

Since you didn't mention whether the basement is finished, or whether
things stored on the floor are getting damaged by your periodic floods, 
I'll assume "no" to both.

Don't bother with a sump pump for just a couple of puddles a year.  If a 
pipe breaks, you've got the shop-vac.  It's not automatic, but as noted 
previously, neither is a sump pump if the power goes out.

But to answer another specific question:  given the realities of New 
England water tables, I would consider a properly installed and maintained
sump pump to be a selling point. 

Just my opinion, but you did ask.

    Chances are you don't need to bury the waste line below the frost
    level.  If the temperature outside is cold enough to freeze the
    waste line, it will  probably freeze the ground water and keep it
    from coming in.  That which does come in should be warm enough to
    pump it out before it freezes again.  A word of warning: DO NOT
    
    CONNECT THE WASTE TO YOUR SEWER LINE.  You sewere system cannot
    handle the extra water from a sump pump.  If you have town or city
    sewer, it is against the law to connect runnoff lines (pumps and
    gutters) to the sewer line.

re: .6  water freezing in the pipe from the sump pump.
    
    I think you should be concerned that the water in the sump pump
    pipe may freeze if it's not below the frost level.  It depends 
    where the water in the sump is comming from.  If it is surface water, 
    then you may be OK, but if the water is coming in from below the 
    foundation, that water may never freeze.
    
    To be safe I would locate the pipe below the frost level if possible
    and also consider ways to make sure that water doesn't remain in
    the pipe to reduce the chances of any freezing.  I wouldn't use
    a check valve, for example.
    
    -willie
    

    We get water up through the floor at both ends of our foundation.
    Would one sump pump be enough to relieve the water pressure under
    the whole floor, or would I have to put in one at each end?
    
    thanks - Dave

    Perhaps some of you have had a similar problem, and can be of help.
     I recently moved into a new house, and I have a sump pump in the
    basement.  The problem is, the pipe from the pump runs out of the
    house and just stops.  The water from the pump just runs into the
    yard.  I have attached a flex-hose to it, and move it around so
    that the water does not always run to the same place, but this is
    getting old real fast, especially with all the rain we have been
    having in the Chicago area this year.  One alternative is to run
    a pipe (underground) out to the street, but local ordanances say
    no to that.  Another suggestion was to put in a "dry" well in the
    yard and let the water run to that.  That sounds reasonable, but
    so far I have not met anyone that has done something like that.
     If anyone has any suggestions, please pass them along.  At this
    point, nothing is too out of line.
    
    Thanks......Jack @ ACI
    

>     If anyone has any suggestions, please pass them along.  At this
>    point, nothing is too out of line.
    
    	Pump it onto your neighbor's property!  (:>
        
    Seriously, it sounds like you people in the Chicago area are now
    going through what we New Englanders went through back in the spring.
    The ideas that you presented are all long-term solutions; you need
    something to do with the water *now*!  The problem is that with
    all the rain you've no doubt been suffering with, the water table
    in the ground is very high - there's just no place for the stuff
    to go.
    
    There are several notes in this file dealing with drainage, gutters,
    construction of a dry-well, etc.  If I knew which notes they were,
    I'd include the numbers.  Good luck.... I can understand what you're
    going through.  The rains this spring started one week after I moved
    into my new house.  I was lucky:  I only had 3-4 inches of water in
    the basement, which I was able to sweep out the door where nature
    carried it downhill onto the wooded lot behind my house.  Sometime
    I intended to add gutters, maybe build a drywell, etc. so it doesn't
    happen again.
    
    Jim

    I suspect, unless you have exceptionally porous soil (i.e. your house is
    built on a pile of sand), a drywell wouldn't be able to handle the
    volumes of water you're talking about, at the times you're talking
    about.  If your soil were that porous, you probably wouldn't be having
    the water problems in the first place.  A drywell is going to be the 
    most waterlogged just at the time you have the most water to get rid
    of.  I think you'll need some kind of real drain, but it sounds
    as though you have a small lot and no place to drain to, if the
    street is a no-no.

    Re .0
>   One alternative is to run a pipe (underground) out to the street, but
>   local ordanances say no to that.

    If you say so, fine.  At home in Goffstown, Cow Hampshire, I'm doing
    exactly that - not with an underground line, but with a hose that extends
    just to my driveway which drains to the street.

    What's wrong with putting rain-water in the street?

    
    re .3
    
    I live in Goffstown (Pinardville) and it is against city ordanances
    to run the water to the street. During the summer there probbably
    isn't much of a problem, but during the late fall and early winter
    you can get into trouble. The water will run out to the street and
    then freeze into a nice skatingrink.

    Someone in Walpole did just that last winter. Drained water from
    a flooded basement on to the street, which happened to be Rt 1a.
    The water froze, and some kids about 1am hit the ice and had an
    accident, killing a high school senior girl. I believe the people
    are still in court.
    
    It is against the town by-laws, in Walpole, to drain from your
    property to the street.

    My basement has developed a water problem. I have a sump hole but
    never needed to use and thus never bought a sump pump. Anybody have
    recommendations as to what type,manufacturer and size sump pump
    to buy?
    
    			Thanks

    In a past life I used to sell these things and therefore are biased.
    The best but not the least expensive way to go is to get a submersible
    sump pump with a poly (plastic) double insulated housing and a high/low
    level switch to control off/on. Some pumps come with a switch which
    is replaceable and separate from motor. Sump pump discharge hose
    kits are usually available from plumbing supply wholesalers or hardware
    stores. Get the corregated kind like a vacuum cleaner hose. A plastic
    check valve should be placed between the pump and hose.
    
    The upright sump pumps are considerable cheaper but a real pain
    when the fall over. They are by nature very unstable.
    
    Consider the depth of the sump pit when selecting a sump pump style.

    You might try to figure out why you "developed" a need for a sump
    pump.  If you can figure out the source of the water you may be
    able to correct the problem at the source.  Was the grading changed
    by you house?  Some other reason for water in the basement?
    
    Stan

    I have a pedestal sump pump. I have it set about 30 inches below
    the basement floor. The pump sits in a 20 gal drum with holes in
    it. Around the drum, there is 1 1/2 inch cruched stone filled level
    with the floor also. This allows me to pump the water before it
    gets too close to the basement floor. I also put a check valve in
    and used 1 1/4 inch black plastic pipe going outside to a 4 inch
    drain pipe that carries it away from the house. The plastic pipe
    is the one that you can buy by the foot at the hardware store, (not
    the flexible junk that comes with the sump pump kit for $5. The
    pump is always plugged in and works great. I have a high water table
    in the spring time only and the pump runs for about a month or so.
    As a matter of fact, it just started pumping last monday. It is
    a permanent installation and works on its own.  Good luck.
    
    Dave

    I also have a pedestal sump pump.  This one is set in a flue liner
    approx 30" below the basement floor.  I use 1"1/2 PVC to get to
    the outside world and the 4" flex piping to carry it away from the
    house. One think you should consider is putting an alarm in the
    event the pump dies, power failure, etc.....  I made one using a
    battery smoke detector and has saved the basememnt when the previous
    pump went south.  A real cheap investment($10-12) to save  lot of
    grief and worry.
    
    
    	Don
    

    re: .4
    
    > One thing you should consider is putting an alarm in the event
    > pump dies, power failure, etc.....  I made one using a battery
    > smoke detector and has saved the basement when the previous pump
    > went south.
    
    How did you make this?  Can an item like this be purchased?  I'm
    *always* in fear of my sump pump dying ...  (Wake up at 3 am, it's
    raining; listen, listen, listen;   ahh, sump pump kicks in, go back
    to sleep ...)
    
    Thanks!
    
    - Chris
    
    
  
 
    

    Its very easy to make.  You simply solderone wire to the arm of
    the test arm on the smoke detector and another wire to the base
    where the test arm makes contact.  Then you run the wire to the
    sump pump and strip back 3 or 4 " of the insulation.  You then hang
    the wire (taped to the discharge pipe) a inch or so above the water
    line. When the failure occurs (pump or power) the water rises shorts
    the two leads and the smoke detector go off.  And because you have
    not altered the smoke detector it still works as a smoke detector.
    
    
    Don
    

    Thanks - hopefully I can figure out how to do this.  (I know it
    *sounds* easy, but my electrical expertise ends with changing switch
    faceplates! :-))
    
    I'm surprised no one makes one of these dodads.  Maybe it's not
    too late to make my million!
    
    
    - Chris
    

    Is the conductivity of the water ALWAYS sufficient to close this
    circuit.
    
    I've heard of stuff like this done with a pair of spring contacts
    held apart with an (unbuffered) aspirin.  Water rises, dissolves
    aspirin, contacts close sounding the alarm.
    
    I'd expect this to be touchy with plain water, albeit a little dirty,
    but you also don't say anything about spacing and this guys seems
    to have little electrical expertise.  Suppose we put the wires in
    the water 6" apart.  Still work ??
    
    I'd do a little experimenting .-1 before you rely on this completely.
    
    I remember an electronics shop that I worked in when I was a little
    wetter behind my ears.  They were so cheap we used a bucket of salt
    water for a variac.  Depending on how much salt we put in the water
    determined the AC resistance.  You wouldn't want to soak your foot
    in it though.

    There was an article in Family Handyman I believe several years
    ago with the idea just as it was suggested here. There seems to
    be enough conductivity in the water to make the test button
    circuit work. I have it at home. I'll see if I can find it and post
    more information.
    
    Tim
    

    Heathkit offers (or at least used to offer) a kit for an alarm
    of this sort, to detect standing water.

    Sams books has a book called "DIY home safety electronics projects"
    it has plans for a water sensor which looked very simple and
    inexpensiveto build. I'll lend you my copy if your local or can
    copy and send along if you like.
    
    -j   (CX03)
    

    I keep the wires 4-6" apart and so far the alarm has saved me a
    wet basement twice when the float of the pump caught on the side
    of the flue liner.  A lot of manufacturers sell water detectors
    in the range of $30-hundreds of dollars.  This one works so I'll
    keep it till it fails me and my workshop get floaded.
    
    	Don
    

    To get somewhat back on track here, my sump pump seized up on me
    and after extracting it from the sump hole I was surprised to find
    that the impeller at the base was made of iron.  So it was rusted.
    I would have expected to find one made of plastic or some non-
    corresive material.  Maybe its a cheap one?
    
    Mike

>    It is against the town by-laws, in Walpole, to drain from your
>    property to the street.

   How do you find out if it is against the law in your town or not?  I just
   moved into Acton and found that my house has a sump pump that drains onto
   the driveway, which then drains onto the street and into a storm drain.  Now
   that it's getting cold, I'm ending up with a skating rink for a driveway. 

   I'd like to route the output of the sump directly to the end of the
   driveway, maybe even directly into the storm drain on the street.  The end
   result is the same as far as the street is concerned, but my driveway would
   be would be dry and less prone to cracking from the water that seeps through
   cracks and freezes.

   Can I do this?  Who do I need to get permission from?  What happens if I do
   it and then find out that it's agains city ordinances?


   -Kurt*

       The newer more expensive pumps are Stainless steel. My old iron
    one just went south.
                                                      Denny

    I believe that the town wants you to drain onto your own property.
    I have seen many instances where the owner is pumping out his basement
    to his back yard. I wonder how many times he pumps the same water.
    I don't think the town would let you pump directly to the Storm
    drain. I would check with the town building inspector.
    Steve

    I need to replace my sump pump drain hose. I want to use PVC 1.25"
    dia. pipe. I have some questions.
    
    1. Where does the anit siphone valve go. Outside? at the top of
    the pipe? or down at the sump pump?
    
    2. I've heard that you should use 45 degree elbows not 90 degree
    elbows. Any comments?
    
    3. What is the best way to secure the pipe to the basement wall?
    My sump is located in the corner of the basement. The center of
    the hole is approx 12" from each wall. The walls are poured concrete.
   

    RE: .15
    
>    I need to replace my sump pump drain hose. I want to use PVC 1.25"
>    dia. pipe. I have some questions.

    I've used what I believe is CPVC (black, a tad flexible, fastens
    with hose clamps, cheaper than PVC)
    
>    1. Where does the anit siphone valve go. Outside? at the top of
>    the pipe? or down at the sump pump?
    

    I believe you want a check valve, not anti-siphon valve.  I think
    it is supposed to be as close as possible to the sump.  Maybe 2
    feet?

>    2. I've heard that you should use 45 degree elbows not 90 degree
>    elbows. Any comments?
    

    I've got 3 90 degree elbows and haven't had trouble.

>    3. What is the best way to secure the pipe to the basement wall?
>    My sump is located in the corner of the basement. The center of
>    the hole is approx 12" from each wall. The walls are poured concrete.
   
    Mine aren't attached but you could use plastic or metal strapping
    usually found in the plumbing dept.  They also have metal brackets.
    You could fasten wood to the concrete with masonry nails or lag
    bolts and screw into it.
    

    I used black PVC on mine and had no problems. My pump is in a metal
    barrel. The barrel is a 20 gal one that is sunk into the ground.
    I have 1 1/2 crushed stone around the barrel. This prevents the
    pump from picking up alot of crap that would plug up the check valve.
    I use a foot valve on my pump. It is the same as a check valve except
    that it has a plastic cover on it (which I remove). The foot valve
    is made of plastic and is alot cheaper that a brass check valve.
    It works the same way. As for the pipe, I do not have it anchored
    to the wall. It comes up form the pump, (the foot valve about 2
    feet from the discharge) and then a 90 degree elbow and another
    piece of pipe leading outside. The pump is set up to work automatically
    when the water table rises in the spring.
    
    
    Dave Dufort 

    
    Re: .16 and .17
    
    The "black plastic" you are both referring to is ABS, 
    *not* PVC or CPVC.
    
    -tm
    

    
    RE: .18
    
    Whatever I got is black, plastic and works.  So I guess it's BPW...
    
    So what is CPVC then?

Our sump pump sits in a poured cement hole.

We discovered a 6 inch by 2 inch hole in the cement at the base of
the sump hole.  Dirt from the ground has been slowly coming in and
muddying up the water.  Should we try to patch it with hydraulic
cement, or fill it with crushed stone ?

Please help, my wife won't go into the basement for fear of snakes 
coming in through the hole!  I think it's just her way to get out
of doing the laundry!

Thanks,
Paul

Depends on what the sump hole is for.

If the hole is there "just in case" you get water in your basement "some day",
then, by all means, go with hydraulic cement.

If the hole is there *because* you have a wet basement, and patching the hole
will only force water in elsewhere, I'd say don't bother.

Since you say the hole is poured cement (does that mean the basement floor
was poured, like mine, and a bucket or something was left in the cement to
make the sump hole?), I'd say it's a "just in case" hole, and I'd plug it.

Please allow me to clarify...

The sump hole is about 1.5 feet in diameter and about 2.5 feet deep.

It has three pipes leading into it, one from the wet bar sink drain
(which actually sees very little usage) and two from drain tiles below 
the basements foundation which carry ground water into the hole.  The
pump ejects as necessary.  Depending on rainfall, it will eject once
every few days to once an hour or so.

Thanks for any other suggestions.

This sounds like it belongs in the "Why did they ever do that?" note, but ...

If I remember your original question correctly, and you don't have much in the
way of water from this crack filling your hole, then plug the crack, and, yes,
the hydraulic cement method seems to be the best (what I've heard, not done).

Then, when you have a few thousand $ to waste, fix your foundation drain
system.  "Let's see.  Let's dig a hole in the ground, put a house in it, then
drain whatever groundwater we can scare up into its cellar sump hole!  Yeah!
That's the ticket!"

    I am looking for a 'drip pan' to be used to accumulate a small
    amount of dripping water and then when a 'high water' mark is reached
    a small pump would activate and empty the tray.
    
    I have seen these for the condensation on central air conditioning
    units but I'm not sure what they are called. The tray is very small
    and the pump is a cheap looking thing.
    
    Does anyone know what this guy is called? I tried to discribe it
    to Somerville and they looked at me like I was crazy!
    
    Name/Source?
    
    Mark

    I've seen what you're talking about.  Why not ask your local friendly
    air conditioning contractor.

    Have never found one at a hardware store or 'home center'.
    
    Only air-conditioning, heating distributors.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    So I should plan to pay twice what it REALLY should cost, ehh??
    
    (This world spins kinda funny...)
    
    Mark

	My heating contractor installed a small condensate pump for a 
	heat extractor.  About 2 1/2 years ago is cost about $50.  He
	picked it up a a local plumbing supplier.  It measures about
	9"L x5"DP x 5"H.  If your interested I'll lookit up this evening.
		DTN 293-5626

    Mine was called a "condensate pump".  I bought it at MASI plumbing
    and heating in Milford NH (they are also in Nashua).  Don't remember
    the price.  I've been using it for over a year with no problems.
    

    Thanks, I'll stop by MASI in Nashua this weekend...
    
    M

    This may be alittle late, but you could build one of your own with
    an old toilet float mech and a small electric pump, have the float
    assy reversed so that it turns on the pump when full and turns it
    off when empty.  all you need is a plastic bucket big enough for
    the float assy to fit.
    
    good luck
    
    Patrick

    Mr. Moderator I have looked in the keyword listing for :
    
                GUTTERS_DRAINAGE
    		MISC
    		PLUMBING-DRAINAGE
    		FENCES
    
    As well as checked the notes there, and none seem to apply.
    
    Here is the situation. My neighbor had a medium sized addition put onto
    his home, w/ a full cellar. His (and now my) problem is that his cellar
    floods every time the humidity is above 51%   8^).  He had a pump
    installed, and when the pump discharges water it flows into my yard.
    (He had his yard graded, and the slope now diverts the runoff into my
    yard.) I now have a glacier which is about the size of a van (footprint
    wise) and is upward of 12" thick and growing everyday. His discharge
    hose is flush w/ the outside foundation wall, there is lot of
    erosion in his yard. The problem , I ass/u/me will be much worse
    w/ the spring thaw, and the spring rains. I do not want a marsh, or a
    mud pit in place of my lawn. How might I approach the situation/
    people. Do I build a dam/ approach the neighbor / drain my pool
    into his yard/ or what? Anybody know what Judge Wapner would say on
    this one ?
    						AD-THANX-VANCE BOB 

    By the wat I also tried DIR/TITLE=PROPERTY LINE w/ no results.
    
    Additionally, there are only bushes, that make up the property divider
    between my yard, and theirs, and we are on reasonably good terms w/
    each other.
                              thanx again/Bob

    
    If you are on reasonably good terms, perhaps you could help him
    dig a french drain that causes the pump water to flow toward 
    the street.  An expensive option is for him to have a dry well
    dug which the water could flow into.  Is it possible as a temporary
    solution, that he could get a long hose to redirect the water to
    another area?  Everything depends on the terrain of course.
    What does it look like?
    
    -tm
    

  When we were making some changes to the wording of our deed, our
  lawyer explained to us that, under Mass law, we were responsible for
  any water which flowed from our property onto any other property,
  regardless of whether the flow was caused by something we did or
  anything else. In the case where it was directly caused by some
  improvement to our property, there would be no question that we were
  responsible to immediately do something to fix it.

  Under these circumstances, your best bet would to be to approach your
  neighbor on friendly terms and try to find out whether they would be
  willing to try something which wouldn't dump water on your property.
  If they seem unwilling to do that, you could (somehow) gently point
  out that it's their responsibility, and could affect the validity of
  their deed (which would require an "betterment" from you giving them
  the right to let the water flow onto your property). This, in turn,
  could affect their ability to sell their house without legal hassles
  at some time in the future. Failing all of that, you'd need to contact
  your town officials, and possibly a lawyer.

    Don't walk, run to the nearest law library and research the situation
    enough to be able to refer to specific codes, sections, rules, laws,
    etc.-----doesn't matter if they all exactly fit.  Then write your
    neighbor a nice letter citing all of the above, with a limit of
    90 days to completely eliminate your problem.  Close the letter
    with a threat to initiate legal action if he doesn't begin remedial
    work in 30 days.  
    
    Start a legal suit immediately.
    

    
    re .2
    
    Don't divert the water to the street. In many towns/states this
    is illegal.
    
    Mike

    re .4
>    etc.-----doesn't matter if they all exactly fit.  Then write your
>    neighbor a nice letter citing all of the above, with a limit of
>    90 days to completely eliminate your problem.  Close the letter
>    with a threat to initiate legal action if he doesn't begin remedial
>    work in 30 days.  
    
>    Start a legal suit immediately.
    Whew! I'm glad I don't have you as a neighbor!
    I believe you have every right to make him fix it, but a more friendly
    approach would probably do the job, and keep a good relationship
    intact.
    
    John
    

>>    Start a legal suit immediately.

>    Whew! I'm glad I don't have you as a neighbor!

>    I believe you have every right to make him fix it, but a more friendly
>    approach would probably do the job, and keep a good relationship
>    intact.

      How serious is this problem, really? 
      
      Is  it  a small bother?  Or does it seriously affect the usability
      and value of your property?  Is the water actually causing  damage
      to  your house or property?  (Landscaping?)  If it is not serious,
      them it might be better to just forget the entire thing.  But then
      why  would  you have started this note?  If it is serious, here is
      what I recommend.

      By  all  means, take a friendly approach.  Include in you friendly
      approach the fact that you are laying the goundwork for  and  will
      start  legal  action  if the problem isn't taken care of within 30
      days or some other time you consider reasonable.  If your neighbor
      knows  that  you are serious and that you have had the courtesy to
      tell him so he is much  more  likely  to  respond  in  a  friendly
      manner.   Otherwise  he  is  likely  to perceive that it is to his
      advantage to stall as long as possible. This is only human nature.
      If  your neighbor is a saint you can disregard this, but otherwise
      act promptly and with resolution.  The longer you delay in  taking
      decisive  action  the  harder  it  will  be to reach an acceptable
      solution and the more likely it is that it will cost YOU.

      And don't bluff.  Spend $50 or so to have your lawyer write a nice
      letter (after you've talked to your  neighbor)  stating  what  you
      expect him to do and when you expect it to be done.

    As to weither or not I am incurring any loss. I have a pile of vinyl
    siding which has now become part of the glacier. The vinyl is to finish
    my home in the spring. Removing the material from the ice would surly
    cause it to shatter, and If the ice mass, thaws and re-freezes, and
    contorts the sideing it will break on its own. Seems like fate is
    sealed (unless we get a few warm [50 deg.] days). And like I mentioned
    earlier, come spring w/ the thaw and rains-- he will be creating a
    Federal Wetlands in my back yard. I hope to see him today, I'll let you
    know what happens. Meanwhile any more ideas-leagal-social-creative-
    or otherwise ?
    
                                          �0�

    
>      By  all  means, take a friendly approach.  Include in you friendly
>      approach the fact that you are laying the goundwork for  and  will
>      start  legal  action  if the problem isn't taken care of within 30
>      days 
    
    
    "friendly approach"   and  "legal action"  are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
    terms!
    

re:                         <<< Note 3630.9 by CVG::ESONIS "What now?" >>>
    
>    "friendly approach"   and  "legal action"  are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
>    terms!
    
      Do  you  mean  that  a friendly approach is an illegal action?  Of
      course you don't.

      Seriously,  why  are they "MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE"?  Please re-read my
      reply about 2 back.  The course of action I've suggested is to use
      legal  action sort of like Robert Frost intended he he wrote "Good
      fences make good neighbors".

      My  suggestion  was and is that if the neighbor knows clearly what
      he has to do he is much more likely to do it in a friendly manner.
      The  legal  action  I suggested makes sure that he knows.  It also
      lays the groundwork and minimizes the delays for taking more sever
      action if the neighbor doesn't live up to his responsibilities.

      On  the other hand, avoiding (or putting off) legal action doesn't
      mean that the situation is or will remain friendly.   In  fact,  I
      suggest  that  it  increases  the possibility of misunderstandings
      that could lead to an unfriendly situation.

    Okay.  You say it is a serious problem.  Sounds like it.  You also say
    you are friendly with this neighbor.  A valuable commodity in this day
    and age.
    
    Have you pointed out the problem to your neighbor?  Something like
    "Joe, we have a problem", followed by a walk together on the glacier. 
    Maybe he/she doesn't know about it.  Maybe they don't know the extent
    of the damage.  Maybe they think you don't care.
    
    If I had a nice neighbor, I'd be willing to give them the benefit of
    the doubt.  Who knows?  Maybe they are in the middle of suing
    contractor, surveyor, etc.
    
    I would think they might have mentioned something to you.  But we don't
    see our neighbors much in the winter, unless we are shoveling snow.
    
    Pay your neighbor a visit.  Let us know what you learn.
    
    Elaine
    

>Note 3630.10 by VMSDEV::HAMMOND "Charlie Hammond -- ZKO3-02/Y05 -- dtn 381-2684" >>>
>                    -< You can take friendly legal action! >-
    
    
>      Seriously,  why  are they "MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE"?  
    
    
    "LEGAL ACTION" isn't friendly action. By bringing this up the first
    time you talk with the person, you'll probably allienate him right off
    the bat. I think that the approach in .11 stands the best chance of
    positive results without negative after effects.
    

    
    p.s.
    
    
                 <<< Note 3630.12 by CVG::ESONIS "What now?" >>>
                       -< Send lawyers, guns & Money!!! >-
    
       insert *BIG* smiley face after the title of th last reply!
    

    UPDATE:
    
    My neighbor called me over to help him move a carpet from his truck to
    the cellar. pon exiting the cellar I asked "Roger whats up w/ this
    glacier ?" His reply was that "I never knew there would be so much
    water" , and "I need to correct this come spring". Well I showed him
    my "glacier-locked" vinyl sideing, and voiced my concern as to its
    potential to shatter, and offered to help him find a solution. I dont
    think he got the message. I believe he intends on fixing it in the
    spring. I think I need to "discuss" this one moretime w/ him. 
    He said he considored running a hose to his back yard, but he is
    convinced it will freeze up.  My proposed solution will be to build a 
    water troft. Something like a 2x8x16 on the flat w/ sides made of 
    1x6x16. Like the troft you see in the Westerns, to pan for gold in.
    Cheap and hopefully effective. Any other ideas/comments.
    
    						thanx for all the
                                                   replys/bob
    

    
      I believe there is a product which you can attach to a hose/drain
    pipe which in effect heats the hose/pipe thru conduction?? Just
    have to plug it in, or maybe it is something that could be easily
    made?
    
                         Mark

    A hose would be fine as long as it has enough pitch and a high end vent
    so that it will drain when the pump stops.
    
      Bill
    

re: << Note 3630.12 by CVG::ESONIS "What now?" >>>
    
>    "LEGAL ACTION" isn't friendly action.

      I  disagree.   Certainly legal action can be unfriendly, but it is
      not necessarily so.
      
      Now  if  you go up to someone and say, in effect, "You're a rotten
      SOB and I'm gonna sue the pants off you!", well, yes THAT  is  not
      friendly. 
      
      On  the other hand you can say "Look, you're causing me a problem.
      I expect that you'll fix it and I'll help you out if I can. But if
      it  isn't  taken  care  of  I'll  have to resort to legal action".
      Perhaps you don't think that that's being friendly.  I do.  It  is
      certainly  much  more  friendly  and  more honest than letting the
      problem drag on and on and then bringing in  an  attorney  without
      advance warning.
      
      The  purpose  of  MENTIONING  legal  action  is to ensure that you
      communicate the seriousness with which your  view  the  situation.
      Properly  done it is not a "threat", but a statement that you feel
      you need to protet your rights.
      
      Even  if  you  and  your  lawyers  can't  agree  on  who  has what
      responsibilities and have to go before a judge, even that  doesn't
      imply  "unfriendly".   All  it  says  is  that  you disagree on an
      important matter and need to have it settled.  The best of friends
      can have disputes and can remain freinds after they're settled.

    
    
      You folks who think mentioning legal action and keeping a
    good friendship have been watching Mr. Rogers to much. I doubt
    even he would mention legal action. Lets get real here. I have
    a good relationship with all my neighbors. If something were to
    happen and they brought up legal action right away I'd be pissed
    off. If your neighbor wants to ignore all your request for
    a peacefull settlement then maybe legal action. I would definately
    not use legal action right away. Anyone who would is only kidding
    themselves that there good neighbors.
    
    BAL
    
    

    
    People generally don't like being given ultimatums (sp) - especially
    when the law is involved. I can only see hostility coming out of
    an approach like that.
    For an example, here's something similar that happened to me.
    My neighbor was replacing a side deck. When he started digging the
    footings, I noticed he was making it wider than the previous one
    (ie: placing it closer to my house -  where I live, the houses
    are about as close as code allows). I wanted to tell him, in a friendly
    manner, that the zoning regs require structures 10 feet from a side
    lot line, and he could possibly have trouble selling or refinancing
    if his was closer than that. (he did not have a permit)
    I walked up and said "Hey I noticed you're making your deck bigger.
    Did you happen to measure to make sure your within 10 feet of the
    line?"
    He says "why?"
    I say "well if you're not, you might need a variance in order to
    sell or refinance. You saw what Tom just went thru". (another neighbor
    had to get one when he built a retaining wall to close to the front)
    He immediately got defensive and claimed I was getting picky over
    a couple of extra feet (this was after we measured, and he was in
    fact 8 feet away from the lot line).
    I told him it would be in his best interest if he kept it the same
    size (on the side), since there would be no variance required.
    He then flew into a rage, and told me to keep my f*cking dog out of
    his yard, etc, etc.
    Needless to say, we haven't been friendly since then, and I did not
    even *infer* legal action!
    
    John

    
    ***WARNING****  Rathole Alert !!!

    The topic of legal action being friendly or not is generating a lot of
    discussion.  Seems to be lots of fun to discuss both sides of this
    quagmire of neighbor relations but it is really another topic
    altogether different from "How do I keep my neighbors basement water
    out of my yard."

    If you would like to continue to discuss the topic of legal action
    being friendly or not-friendly, please open a new topic.  Lets try and
    keep the discussion to methods of fixing the problem.  
    
    Bruce [moderator]

    re:Original problem
    
	Just a thought but is there any reason that this water can't
    be channeled into their existing leach field/drainage system ? Why
    the seperate hose ?
    
    	If this can't be done, it sounds like the ideal fix would be
    to dig up and move the hose. Being that the ground is frozen now
    it really does sound like a spring project for this reason.
    
    	Sounds like the only immediate problem is that of the siding.
    Maybe you could invite the neighbor over for a few beers. When he
    accepts, tell him to bring his blow dryer with him so he can help
    you defrost your vinyl siding out of the glacier and move it while
    your sucking down a few brewski's ;-) 
    
    BTW - Sounds like you've handled it just fine so far.
    
    	Ray

    Not knowing the lay of the land it's tough to provide solutions.
    
    one band-aid would be to put a couple of sections of rain gutter down 
    and direct the water into them (fig 1)
    
    Next spring dig a trench and put in 4" PVC pipe, if there is a place
    to drain it to (open area, dain or Dry Well). Make sure there is
    sufficient slope.  
    
    As for the siding you could dump a large amount of rock salt/ice melt
    around it so help break up the ice so it can be moved. To speed things
    up if the sun hits it coat the ice with a dark substance or dye
    (ashes potting soil and cover with plastic). 
    
    Or convince your neighbor to crank his hot water up, for a couple of hours
    and run a hose to your siding to melt the ice (not a good solution on 
    real cold days and large areas)
    
     |--+  pipe
     |  |
     |     air space 
     |  --------gutter---------  
    
    
    Don

    Seems to me that there are several problems here, at least potentially.
    
    First, you have a neighbor who never considered that what he was
    doing might have a negative impact on *you*, which it does, and
    who probably "doesn't get it" when you try to make that clear in
    a friendly, non-litigative way.  (Not MY definition of a "good"
    neighbor, even if he is cordial.)
    
    Next, you have potential property damage in the form of damaged
    siding, a cost to you.
    
    Next you have a potential ongoing drainage problem of your own,
    since you have the potential of developing a marsh at all, and your
    neighbor's grading has exacerbated the problem.
    
    Next, you were the one responsible for storing your siding where
    the glacier happened and not someplace else.
    
    So in some regards, both of you are culpable and both of you need
    to solve problems.
    
    No help, except perhaps in reminding you of a couple of points that
    might be mentioned by the opposition if you do go to court.
    
    (Now, sneaking in one tiny remark on neighbor relations since I
    see no new note on the subject, may I say that if a neighbor causes
    a problem, they aren't a good enough neighbor to NOT mention possible
    legal action to, at least eventually.  Maybe not the first
    conversation, but assuredly the second.  Neighbors don't have the
    right to negatively effect YOUR property value while they learn
    their responsibilities under the law!)

    Sherry

    
    
    
      Well aside from all the help you've been offered, what have you
    done to reslove this?
    
      Whatever course you take I would suggest just one thing.
    
      The longer you wait, the worse it will get.
    
      Good luck.
    
      Rick.
    
    

>    Seems to me that there are several problems here, at least potentially.
                               .
                               .
                               .
    
>    Next, you were the one responsible for storing your siding where
>    the glacier happened and not someplace else.
    
>    So in some regards, both of you are culpable and both of you need
>    to solve problems.
 
Um, I don't get it. Bob stored his siding on his property and assumed 
responsibility for normal risk. His neighbor then took action which
potentially damages Bob's siding.

Do I read from the above that somehow .0 is at least partially at fault???

If I park my car in my driveway am I somehow responsible for any damage 
caused by my neighbor's lawnmower throwing a rock at it???

Edd

    Just another sign of today's "no responsibility" society.
    
    Used to be people took some responsibility for their actions.
    If your lawnmower threw a rock through your neighbor's car
    window you wouldn't THINK twice of blaming "the damn fool for
    leaving his car where my lawnmower could throw a rock at it".
    Today we get responses like "you were the one responsible for
    storing your siding . . .".
    
    COME ON, folks, let's get real!  If neighbor's tree fell on the
    siding due to a wind storm that's an "act of God" (read "accident").
    If neighbor dumps his basement water outside his house such that
    the discharge winds up on your property, how the heck can you be
    at fault for storing something where you thought it was safe?!
    It is CLEARLY his fault, and he is responsible, both morally and
    legally, for rectifying the problem.
    
    Talk to the neighbor, tell him his water discharge is damaging
    your property, and offer to help him redirect the discharge to
    some place on HIS property.  If he refuses or tells you to wait
    until spring, point out AGAIN he is damaging your property, and
    THEN tell him you'll have to speak to an attorney about your
    rights.  Be nice the first time, but if the bozo refuses to
    accept responsibility for his actions, don't let yourself be
    used as a doormat.

    First, any neighbor who has not accepted responsibility at this point
    is not a "good" neighbor.  The question then seems to center on 2 main
    points. The first is to stop the damn water.  Legally, you can get an
    injunction to stop the pumping or action to stop any more water from
    coming on your property.  An injunction merely causing a stoppage and
    does not fix the problem.  The point about good relations has to be
    considered, but it appears that you are being very good and your
    neighbor is not responding, hence, how much do you want to work it
    yourself.  I personally would draw up a list of DEMANDS.  The demand
    here is to CEASE and DESIST from pumping any more water until a
    satisfactory (to you, not him) is found.  This puts the problem where
    it belongs.  It is not your job to fix his drainage and water problem. 
    It's his property and his problem.  Help only if asked.
    
    The second issue concerns damage to your property, its usability and
    the potential loss of siding.  Separating the issues allows you to
    confront one problem at a time.  If no apparent damage can be found at
    this time.  Wait.  You might get lucky.  However, take pictures and
    take measures to prove how the damages occurred and then if needed you
    can push directly for payment.  If that does not work, you have Small
    Claims Court.  
    
    Part of the issues here concerns who is going to be upset with who. 
    Right now you are the proud owner of a new glacier/lake/swamp.  If that
    makes you happy then worry about your neighbor.  He is feeling ok.  
    Your comments and actions indicate that you are upset.  Again he is
    causing the problem, he should be the one feeling upset.  Gently, make
    him accept the responsibility.  When a good solution is found, then 
    you can work on repair the relationship.  But until this is solved, one
    or both of you is going to be upset.   

    Thanks to *all*. I hopefully  will see my neighbor tomorrow (w/ the
    impending snow/shoveling) I think I need to be a little more assertive.
    I had mentioned the sideing, but his focus seemed to be resolution in
    the spring. I expressed that I wanted to move my sideing in the mean
    time, ass/u/me-ing he would get the message (that more water would bury
    the sideing deeper), but apparently not. I will give him my recomended
    solution (of a water troft, or yours ) and let him know that the water
    *needs* to be redirected somehow. I agree w/ several of you that
    mentioning legal stuff will only complicate things and cause some bad
    feelings- hopefully it wont evolve to that level.
    
    				thanx to all/will update asap
                                                     

Instead of turning a lawyer loose on him (at your expense), why don't you
talk to the town/city/_x_ inspectors? You say this water is the result of
some internal improvement he made? I should think the town would take an
interest on your behalf if you have to resort to outside help.

Where do you live, anyway?

Isn't there a Massachusetts board or something (on secont thought, there has
to be :-)) that protects wetlands? I understand that they get all bent out of
shape anytime anyone dumps water anywhere - even if it is not a protected
wetland.

    I may have missed something but aren't we blowing this out of
    proportion?  First the neighbor sounds cooperative; it's just that
    he doesn't see your side of the problem.  Didn't he admitted the problem
    with the water exists and that he is responsible for fixing it?
    Your differences center on when the problem will be corrected, ie.
    this spring.  There is also an issue of possible property damage
    that it sounds like you have not made clear to your neighbor.
    
    I suggest you go through every avenue you can before bringing even
    the threat of legal's into this.  Besides, it's not like the
    evidence is going to disappear any time before the spring thaw.  
    This is not a patent application where timing counts; you can sue him 
    next spring if that's the only way to resolve this.  
    
    If you believe you will incur property damage explain this to your
    neighbor and ask him to contact his home owners insurance.  This would
    definitely send a kinder message than the threat of suing while
    expressing your level of concern.  It also would allow him
    to respond to the problem without escalating to the hate-my-neighbor
    level.  Besides, it's probably covered by his insurance anyway.
    Maybe you'll get new siding out of this and keep on friendly terms
    with your neighbor to boot!

    
    -JFK-

> < Note 3630.30 by PARITY::KLEBES "John F. Klebes" >
...    
>    I suggest you go through every avenue you can before bringing even
>    the threat of legal's into this.  Besides, it's not like the
>    evidence is going to disappear any time before the spring thaw.  
>    This is not a patent application where timing counts; you can sue him 
>    next spring if that's the only way to resolve this.  

Time IS of the essence in cases like this.  You lose a lot of your rights
of recovery (certainly from suit, possibly from insurance) by not taking
action >AS SOON AS YOU KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM<.
Someone who is harmed has a responsibility to head off further damage.
"Oh, I'll just sue him later" doesn't cut it.  You can't recover damages
done after that unless you've taken action to prevent the damage.
Having raise dth matter with the neighbor already MAY be proper notice,
but if it's not in writing, or documented and supported by witnesses,
the neighbor can plead that the serious nature of the occasion was never
communicated to him.
And what's going to happen in March when this glacier melts?
I wouldn't want it in my back yard now, and yet it could be five times
bigger after another three months of accumulation.

"A stitch in times saves nine, and also proves you tried to solve the problem
even if the seam still rips out."

- tom]

    	I went back and read the original note and noticed that your
    neighbors pump was pumping directly out through the foundation. It 
    seems that the problem could be fixed inside the 4 walls of your 
    neighbors house.
    
    	You may want to ask your neighbor how they planned on fixing
    the problem next time you talked to them. It sounds like your neighbor
    envisions having to do some digging or whatever. This may not be
    the easiest most cost effective method of fixing the problem.
    
    	As I mentioned earlier they may be able to divert the output
    of the pump to their existing drainage system (i.e. run a pipe from
    the pump output to the leach field drainage pipe in the basement).  
    This could probably be done in the relative comfort of your neighbors 
    basement (vs. outside with a wind chill of 10 degrees or whatever).

    	Lastly, there are many ways to get someone to do something you
    want them to. The ideal way to come out of this would be to have this 
    person fix their problem (very soon) and still be on good terms
    with them. I don't think some of the advice given here has this 
    ideal solution in mind.

    	Ray

    I got a chance to talk w/ my neighbor this weekend, and mentioned that
    I needed the watering of my yard to stop. He said" I understand and will
    address it ASAP". Not a grand finally to a long note, but hopefully he 
    will follow thru.
                    Will update if need be.
    			And thank you one and all for your advice,online
    			and otherwise.Happy Holidays/Bob

    re: .32
    
    It isn't at all obvious that piping the water into the existing
    drainage system is the right way to go.  If this water is the result of
    a high water table causing seepage into the new basement, the leach
    field may not be able to handle the extra capacity.  I'm also not sure
    how well septic systems function when they receive greater quantities
    of water than intended by their original design.
    
    It strikes me that the real problem for the neighbor isn't to find a
    place to put the water, but rather to stop the water from entering the
    new basement in the first place.  In other words, waterproof the
    basement.
    
    re: .29
    
    The board you have in mind is the Conservation Commission.  I've never
    heard of them getting upset about dumping water per se.  They do get
    concerned if you change the water flow into a wetland.  Diverting water
    from the wetland can dry it out, while putting more water in can cause
    sediment to fill the wetland, or can raise the water level and kill
    existing vegetation.  They're also concerned about groundwater,
    aquifers, and so on.  Diverting water that should be entering the
    ground can affect neighbors wells.  This could indeed be one of those
    situations that would concern them, depending on whether or not there
    are any wetlands nearby that could be affected.  It's tempting to say
    that it couldn't hurt to ask, but you should know that if you (or any
    previous owner) has done anything in violation of the Wetlands Act or
    local wetlands bylaws, they could force you to correct them. 
    
    Usually it's the Planning Board that's concerned with drainage off of
    properties, but rarely at the level of a single family house.  Their
    concern with drainage is when new subdivisions proposed, or other
    commercial development that's likely to increase the surface area
    that's impervious to water (paved parking lots, driveways, new roads,
    etc.).  Again, I doubt they'd have an interest in this case.
    
       Gary

    My sump  pump  output  is  a 2" plastic hose that goes through the
    cellar  wall,  and somehow ends up in a larger pipe that comes out
    on the far side of the driveway in a small stream.

    The problem is that apparently the pipe is leaking, so I get water
    running  down  the cellar wall whenever the sump pump goes on. How
    do I go about replacing the plastic hose? I'm pretty sure the leak
    is  reasonably  close  to  the  cellar,  but it's almost certainly
    buried under either a small garden or an asphalt driveway.

--David

    Does anybody have any information or experience with "BATTERY BACK-UP""
    sump pump systems?  Sources and pricing info??
    
    During hurricane Bob we lost power and as a result the rising water
    table.....rose right up and over the top of the sump hole, flooding 
    the basement. Rather than invest mega-$ in a noisy generator for
    emergency power.....I was thinking in terms of battery back-up to 
    allow for emergency operation of the sump system.
    
    I haven't seen these at plumbing/hardware places......hoever, I know
    that commercial Basement Waterproofing companies offer this as an
    option (B-Dry Systems).
    
    Thx,
    
    Jonathan

    Sears sells them in their catalog; I've also seen "Simer" brand
    at True Value Hardware stores.

       I saw one a year or so ago at Sears in Leominster. If you check into
    them, let us know what you find out. I might be interested also.
                               Denny

        What I've seen around here (Chicago) is a product called "Ace in
        the Hole". Price is about $200 for the pump, charger, and battery
        box. You still need to go out and buy a battery, probably a deep
        cycle marine battery.
        
        I don't know how long these will run without charging. They would
        get you thru an outage of a few hours, but when you are talking
        many hours or a day, I think you might still have problems.
        
        The power failures we've had, even when a few hours, never filled
        the sump quite to overflowing. Remember that the first 18" of the
        pit fills fast, but then you must fill all of the drain tile that
        connects to the sump from the house perimeter, and all the gravel
        that drains into the drain tile, before the water level will rise
        that last foot or so. That can take hours. 
        
        So far I've survived without, bit I never leave anything on my
        basement floors. I also invested $15 or so in a water alarm for
        the basement floor, just in case.

    
    re: .9   We got our battery-backup sump pump at where else? - Spags.
    Four years ago, it was $100-150, I don't recall exactly.
    

    re:12
       Where did you get the 'water alarm' and how does it work? Thanks.
                                      Denny

        I got one at a local discount store. It must have been a close
        out, because I never saw them again, and they were pretty cheaply
        made. It stopped working after a few years.
        
        I finally found another, grossly overpriced at Brookstone. I think
        it was about $20, and only in their catalog. They cut the real
        manufacturers name off the label, and put their own name in its
        place. At least everything they sell includes a lifetime
        guarantee. If anyone finds out where to get these for a more
        reasonable price, let me know, as I'd like to get another one for
        another area.
        
        It works much like a smoke alarm. It is powered by a 9V battery.
        When it gets wet (2 contacts on the back, water completes the
        circuit), a loud buzzer goes off. When the battery gets weak, it
        goes into chirping mode until you replace it or smash it to
        pieces. In case of a Noah-like flood, I think it will float.
        
        I've seen ads in industrial magazines for real water alarms. You
        might want one for the ZK computer room, but at ove $100 it is
        overkill for your home.

    Seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard to make a water alarm with
    any kind of buzzer and a battery.  Just set it up with two contacts
    about 1/8" off the floor, so if/when water comes it will go across
    the two contacts and complete the circuit.  I saw one idea in Popular
    Something-or-other years ago, which suggested two wires thumbtacked
    to the jaws of a spring clothespin, with an asprin tablet in between;
    when the tablet got wet, it dissolved and let the clothespin shut,
    completing the circuit.  I don't see any need to get that fancy
    though.

    
    I think you'll find that plain water doesn't conduct all that well,
    thus the Popular-whatever gizmo.
    

    I'd think that water on top of a concrete floor would have plenty of
    ions dissolved in it to make it conductive...but I suppose there is
    no guarantee.

re .18:

>    I'd think that water on top of a concrete floor would have plenty of
>    ions dissolved in it to make it conductive...but I suppose there is
>    no guarantee.

Probably true for wet (unset) concrete, but not for cured concrete.  Otherwise,
concrete would dissolve in the rain.

There are enough ions for fairly high impedance sensors, the one I've seen
the most of in Popular Electronics type rags (other than the aspirin trick)
is using a CMOS gate as the sensor.

-Mike

    RE: Water Alarm
    
     I heard that an easy way to make one is to take a smoke alarm and
    run some wires from the "test" button down into the sump pit.  This
    way you have a dual function alarm.
    
                                                              -Jeff
    

        I'd rather not evacuate the house and call the fire department in
        response to a flood.

    
       Don't quote me on this, but I believe that Somerville Lumber
    has "Water Detector Alarms".  I saw one somewhere within the past
    2 weeks, it looked like a mini smoke detector.  I don't imagine it
    would be that expensive (didn't check the price), and don't know
    how reliable it would be.  It would be perfect for those people who
    have carpet in the basement and have rare water entry, at least it
    would give you a warning to run down and move the carpets before
    they wick the water across the entire floor.
    
          Mark

  I am looking at a house (here we go again) that is situated near the base
of a gradual incline in the street.  The street levels out at the next house
down.  When we looked at it Monday night (after Sunday and Monday rains), there
was water on the floor in the front of the basement where the basement has
been raised by a concrete platform.  The foundation may have been extended to 
add the front porches, I didn't think to notice at the time.  There is a sump
pump at the base of the platform, at the level of the rest of the basement.
The amount of water on the platform floor was about 1/8" - more than dampness,
but not enough to "flow".  The pump wasn't running.
  Anyway to get to my question.  The lots are all small and rectangular in this
part of Arlington.  There is really nowhere to divert the sump output.  They
are diverting it uphill to the side yard because the downhill side of the 
house is all driveway.  There is room to divert it in front of the house
instead.  Is this a big water problem?  Would it help to place an underground
perforated pipe to encourage water away from the house and under the driveway?
(This would probably create a bigger problem for the neighbor, which I wouldn't
really want to do).  Is repeated soaking of the foundation something that 
weakens it structurally?  I read somewhere in this file about digging out
the earth next to the foundation and putting a sealing layer up against it.
If this was done just in the front where the water was coming in I wonder
if it would fix the problem or make the water come in on the sides.
	Thanks for advice,
	   Linda

	Re .9:

	When you say you are looking at a house, presumably you mean you
	are thinking of buying it.

	Have you ever had a Water Problem in your basement?

	I hate to interfere in other people's lives, but a Water Problem
	is such a pain that you need to think carefully, and my automatic
	reaction to your note is "Look elsewhere".

	When I was last buying, I told the real estate agents "Don't even
	mention houses that have sump pumps.  Don't even mention houses
	that have water leaks."

	Regards, Robert.

	I am thinking that it is a fixable water problem, because the 
	water is only coming in at the concrete extension to the original
	fieldstone foundation where they added an enclosed porch.  This is
	at the front of the house and the rest of the basement is dry.  Who
	would be the right type of person to get a professional opinion on
	the problem?
		Linda

    RE:2
    
    can you please discribe a French Drain?  I would like to help divert
    water from my down spouts towards the street.

    
    Basically, a trench filled with crushed stone and maybe a perforated
    pipe, leading away from the drain.  Can be turfed over and hidden.
    
    If it doesn't cause a soil erosion problem, you might be able to get
    away with creating a swale - a depression in the turf, extending the
    downspouts out, or adding 3' splash blocks.
    
    Some towns don't like you to divert water *intentionally* onto the
    road, but if it makes it's own way there......
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    I have a submersible well pump with a 12 gallon pressure tank 
    (non bladder tank), its about 2/3 air, the rest water.
    Cut on pressure is 38 psi and cut out is 55 psi.
    My question is how long should the on/off cycle be
    with my garden hose filling the pool ?  Currently in this 
    situation the pump runs for 8 secs, stays off for 6 secs and
    then so on.  My pressure in the house seems very stable
    I can hardly tell when the pump runs. If I add more air to the tank
    will it keep the pump off longer, or does its operation sound
    normal ?
    
    
                                            Todd
    

>                      <<< Note 5040.0 by KAOOA::MONAHAN >>>
>                             -< Pump duty cycle ? >-

	    There are several notes already created pertaining to well pumps 
	and holding tanks.  Typing DIR 1111.* can help you find them.

					Tim

    I know that it is illegal to drain sump pump output to the street in
    Pepperell so what's the next best thing?  I remember reading about some
    large plastic drums that you bury in the ground and run the water into
    them.  I think they are perforated so that the water can drain away. 
    Is this better than a drywell?  I like it a little better since I would
    be able to see the water coming out of the pipe through a grate in the
    top of the drum.
    
    If I go with a drywell, how big (deep) should it be?  Does the pipe
    from the house to the drywell need to be below the frost line?  How
    deep would a 2 inch plastic pipe need to be in order to drive a car or
    pickup truck over it without crushing it?  How about a cement truck?
    
    							John  

I have a sump pump, heavy duty model, in a sump outside which collects ground
water from my yard (required for the septic system leach field).

It has a 2" discharge, and dumps 100 gal at a time into a rock bed at my
boundary line.  During the summer (now) it pumps probably 600 gals or more
per day -- spring will be a lot more!

I would like to recycle the water and use it for irrigation, instead of 
wasting it (since Acton has a even-odd water ban in effect all summer).


My idea is this:
     		
     						    5/8" hose spigots (2)
     			Pressure Relief		-----|><|
     			Valve (set to 50% of	|
     2" discharge	pump discharge max)	|
  ----------------------|><|--------------------|-----|>O<|-------  discharge 
  |			 ||			   ball valve	    to rock bed
  |	2" bypass	 |
  |     back to sump	 |	
  |   -------------------|
  |   |		
  |   |
| |   |	|	
| |   	|		Ball valve open -- water discharges to rocks
| |   	|		
| |   	|		Ball valve closed -- pump runs against only two
| |    	|		  5/8" openings -- pressure builds,  PRV opens and
|PUMP	|		  majority of water goes back into sump, with only
|_______|		  10-15% sidestream going into hoses for watering.
     			  Pumps runs longer and water takes longer to empty
     			  from sump, but water is usable.  PRV set for 50%
     			  to save wear on pump.


     Issues:

     1. Sure, pump will run longer - but will pressure on head hurt the life
     	of pump?

     2. Will there be a lot of noise at the PRV (this is a home, not an 
     	industrial plant)?

     3. Anybody heard of a 2" 3-way ball valve?  I would put it in place of 
     	the standard ball valve as shown:
     	

     		------to hose spigots (locked open)
     		|
     		|
     	------|>O<|------ to rock bed

        WIth  this kind of valve, one could never by mistake leave both 2"
     	and 5/8" valves shut, forcing pump to run in an infinity loop


     Thanks for any suggestions.


     Bob West

	I would also add a pressure gauge to the discharge leg before the
	ball valve to monitor the pressure when setting the PRV, and to verify
	the operation




	

    I'm just about certain you can find a ball valve like you want,
    somewhere.  Go to a library find a copy of the Thomas Register.
    (If there is still a Digital library near you, they probably
    have a copy.  There is a copy in the MRO1 library.)  It's a huge 
    multi-volume set of books that lists suppliers for virtually 
    anything remotely industrial.  Look up "valves," and you'll find
    more valves than you ever dreamed existed.

What is the principal behind a sump pump?  I always thought it was to pump out
the water that entered the basement.  But my brother, who just bought a house
and found out later that it had had water in the basement last winter, has a
different theory.  His impression wass that punching a hole in the cement floor
and placing a pump would allow water to seep into the hole rather than come up
through the concrete thereby keeping the basement dry.  So, what exactly does a
sump pump do?

George

    
    Re .112:
    
    It really depends on the circumstances.
    
    If the flow to the sump hole is clear (eg, you have very sandy soil, or
    perimeter drains under the basement floor that lead to the sump),
    AND if the water table is not naturally higher than the basement floor,
    AND if periodic water infiltration is less than the pump capacity,
    AND if the pump outlet does not freeze up in the winter,
    you can expect a sump pump (in conjunction with a dehumidifier) to keep
    your basement fairly dry.
    
    On the other hand, I have personal experience with the vacation home
    from hell, in which a sump, perimeter drains, baseboard drains, rain
    gutters and a dehumidifier were installed and corrective landscaping was
    applied, and the best we ever did was limit the water to standing
    puddles. (This was quite an improvement from not being able to open the
    basement door because of the water pressure on the inside.)
    

> different theory.  His impression wass that punching a hole in the cement floor
> and placing a pump would allow water to seep into the hole rather than come up
> through the concrete thereby keeping the basement dry.  So, what exactly does a

    Ideally this is exactly what you're trying to do, ie. lower the
    water table by collecting the water below the slab. This reduces
    the likelyhood that water will force it's way up thru the basement
    floor. 

    This works better if you have very porous soil. Many times, pipes
    are layed under the floor to help collect and direct the water to
    the sump pit.

    In reality, a sump pump in a pit sometimes....

    a. works as described above.
    b. also drains and pumps water from on top of the floor.
    c. provides a path for water enter the basement if the pump fails
       or can't keep up.

    Charly

If a high water table is the deciding factor, pumping down the water table 
is one reason to install a sump pump.

Perimeter drains and an outside pump will do a better job, though.

If you have a storm sewer backing up into your basement, a check valve may 
be in order.

If poor drainage/grading is resulting in roof runoff coming in the basement 
windows or through cracks in the foundation, pumping the water table down 
is stupid.  A strategically placed pump will clear the basement w/o 
punching through the basement floor.

Better grading and/or gutters will help remedy this situation.

    Question for owners of homes with sump pumps --
    
    Have you ever had any problems with field mice coming into your
    basement through your sump hole?  (Doesn't have to be mice -- other
    visitors?)
    
    Thanks.