Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    I would like to start a discussion on electrical codes.  I am currently
    working on my basement and plan to wire it fairly soon.  
    
    What are some of the major do's and don'ts of electrical wiring?
    Most of us know how to plan a wiring job, connect the receptacles
    and switches, and run wire.  But, what many of us are unsure of
    is what subtle little rules we may be violating without knowing
    it.
    
    One thing I found out AFTER a wiring job was complete is the fact
    that all horizontal runs of wire must be within a certain amount
    of inches (can't remember how many) from the floor or ceiling. 
    This is so that anyone performing repairs on the wall will not 
    accidentally saw through a live wire.                         
    
    Any other codes worth knowing????
    
    Thanks,
    Denis
    
    

    
    One thing I got caught on was I had one box with one-too-many
    conductors.  I used 12-2 and branched a circuit in two directions from
    a standard plastic outlet box, which is okay with 14-2, but I had to
    put in a metal box (couldn't find a single-sized plastic box big
    enough) with a wart on its side for the extra volume.  There's a table
    and some accompanying text in the NEC handbook that tells you how to
    count conductors (this isn't as straightforward as it sounds) and how
    many you can put in different-sized boxes.  The boxes are usually
    marked with their volumes.

    If you have a long run and want to have large loads near the end (like
    a table saw), you should probably use 12-2 (or wire it for 240), so you
    won't have too much of a voltage drop.  This is particularly important
    for motors, but even on other loads, you still don't want to pay for
    electricity that's just warming up your wiring.  The handbook tells you
    how to figure the required conductor size for your lengths and loads. 

    Also, Spag's has very good prices on electrical stuff.  Their regular
    prices are close to everyone else's "sale" prices.

    Another electrical tip if you hang out at "T" stations...watch out for
    the third rail!  :-) 

    						- Rich
    
    P.S.  As you might have guessed from the above, it's worth investing
    in a code handbook.

    
    Where / what is the name of these handbooks?
    
    						.dave.

    Your absolutely best bet is to make up a plan of what outlets you want
    and where and then have a chat with your electrical inspector.  He has
    the final say on whether the job is legal or not, and it's a lot easier
    to change your project before you buy any boxes or start drilling. 
    
    You have to feel him out about how much time he wants to spend
    chatting, though, since in most towns the job is part-time and he's not
    really duty bound to design the thing for you.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  A friend and I just finished wiring a porch addition and my new
    workshop (conduit, of course!) and even with a licensed master
    electrician (from West Virginia) we couldn't figure out from the book
    how many 12-2 wires you could stuff into a 2 x 3 x 3 1/2 box with
    an outlet in it!  The formulae made it seem impossible, but the
    inspector explained it in english so that we could do what we needed. 

    regarding NEC books:
    
    	There are couple of "guides" to the NEC, including one by
    McGraw-Hill, and one by <I forget the name of the publisher-but
    its the one that makes all those smallish handbooks>.
    
    	These attempt to use English.  Anyone have a recommendation?
    (I've looked both of the above and I liked the McGraw Hill a little
    more).
    
    __Rich

    "Wiring Simplified" by H. P. Richter, around $2.00 at lumber yards
    (I got mine at Wicke's for $.95)  paper back.
    Its a guide to home and farm wiring in plain english, with charts
    for wire sizes/run lengths, number of wires in a box, etc.  It leaves
    out industrial wiring, which makes it much easier to understand.
    Based on "latest" National Electric Code.
    
    jim d.

    I'll throw my two-cents worth in:
    I haven't seen the obvious mentioned yet so "don't use aluminum
    wire, even if it's available in your area and it's OK code wise.
    Aluminum wire requires special wiring devices, and must NEVER be
    mixed with copper, because the two elements react (oxidize) and
    the effect is that the Al wire eventually comes loose.  It's use
    was one of the many cost cutting measures some builders and
    electricians started using about 15 years ago.  Then NEMA got wise
    to the problems with the stuff, and the codes followed (no doubt
    due to a few fires) and the stuff is not heavily used today.
    
    One exception:  It's OK to use aluminum wire for your service entrance,
    so long as you specify that you you will be using it when you pick
    up your panel.  Panels that use aluminum servie entrance have special
    lugs on the bus bars that are made for aluminum, and then you coat
    the connection with a gel that is an oxidation retardant.  Here
    you will save money; that double ought or triple ougt wire is
    expensive, but I personally still prefer copper, and have payed
    the extra money on the installations I have done.
    
    Other stuff:  Components:  Square D, and Murray are pretty good;
    stay away from Westinghouse and G.E. -- they are good but not all
    their parts (pariculary breakers) are compatible with their panels.
    That is, several years down the road you might want to add a subpanel
    say to a G.E. main (as I did a few years ago).  My main panel was
    made in the early seventies, and finding a compatible breaker for
    a service disconnect was a real hassle.  On the other hand all of
    Square D's stuff is compatible and also very good quality.
    
    When you make your rough wire runs allow about 15 -- 20% extra for
    fudge and installation of devices.  Use *insulated* wire staples;
    it's not intuitively obvious, but most codes require them.
    Anywhere where you are going to have electricty in wet locations,use
    ground fault breakers or outlets.  This is all code required for bathrooms,
    outdoor outlets, and some areas require it in kitchens.  Thing to
    remember -- if you use GFI outlets on a circut, you only need one for
    the circuit, the first one on the circut.  
    
    Most reputable lighting devices are about equal in electrical quality,
    this really comes down to who makes the style of fixture you like.
    I like Nutone fans (including their paddle fans) as well as Hunter
    and Casablanca.  Nutone, Thomas, Lightolier, Thomas and Juno all
    make good qualtiy lighting devices.
    
    And if you are using dimmer switches, get "deep work" boxes.  These
    save a lot of headaches trying to jam both your wire splices and
    the dimmers into the box.

    
    Going to control any outlets from a wall switch, for room lighting?
    If you pick one or two outlets for this function, there *will* be
    some occasion in the future when you regret the positioning of those
    outlets?

    When I finished my upstairs rooms, I ran 14/3 all over, with the
    red wire connected to the light switch. With a screwdriver and five
    minutes, any outlet in the room can be switched.
    

    re: .7
    
    Sounds like a good idea.  Must be illegal.
    
    -joet

    re: .7, .8
    
    Passed inspection. Just pay attention to the max-wires-per-box rule.
    

    re .7
    
    I thought that it had become commonplace to have the bottom half
    of an outlet unswitched and the top half switched.  My house was
    built about 15 years ago, and where there are switched outlets, that's
    the way they are done.  It requires the same amount of wiring, except
    you don't have to go making changes when you want a switched outlet
    there.
    
    Rich

    more on .7  and .10
    
    It is common to split outlets. If you look close at the wiring lug
    on the side you will note a small tab connecting the two screws.
    Break off the tab and the top and bottom outlet are isolated. Note
    you only break off the HOT tab, the one colored brass not white
    or silver.
    
    I wired my house this way, the only problem is remembering whether
    its the top or bottom which is switched- be consistent!
    
    Ron
    
    

    re .10

    Yes, wherever there is a switched outlet, it is the top half of
    an outlet pair. In all professional jobs I have seen, this is done
    by running an additional 14/2 cable to one or two boxes.
    
    The benefit of running a switched wire to each outlet box is that
    you can select the one or two outlets that you need for switched
    lighting, based on your current room decor, while maximizing the
    availability of unswitched outlets. When you change the room decor,
    instead of running extension cords from the switched outlets, simply
    select new outlets for switching.
    
    Another alternative is to switch the top half of every outlet, so
    that you never have to change the wiring inside, but that may leave
    you with a shortage of unswitched outlets.
    
    Depending on what you pay for wire (go to Spag's), one run of 14/3
    can be less expensive than a full run of 14/2 for the unswitched
    outlets plus a partial run for the switched. It also yields 
    at most six conductors in a box, where the double 14/2 layout
    can put eight in some boxes.

>    Yes, wherever there is a switched outlet, it is the top half of
>    an outlet pair. In all professional jobs I have seen, this is done
>    by running an additional 14/2 cable to one or two boxes.

You only need to run extra wire if the power is coming into the switch box.  If 
the power is coming into the outlet box (more likely the case), then you don't 
need to run any additional wires.

Paul

    
    A word of caution about switching outlets (although this may be
    a moot point becuase not every outlet is switched, and most household
    motors are the likes of vacuum cleaners, etc.)....however...DO not
    switch outlets that will be driving heavier duty appliances,
    particularly those which have a high initial current draw.  This
    is common for heavy motors, air conitioners, some dehumidifiers,
    and refrigerators (anything that uses a compressor), and power tools.
    
    The start-up current draw of these appliances can be high, and most
    SPST switches are rated at around 650 watts, and could burn out
    under this load.
    
    Another suggestion:  If you have bench power tools, such as a table
    saw, radial arm saw, etc. most have a set of terminals on the motor
    that you can switch, enabling you to run them at 230 Volts.  I suggest
    doing this; the motors will run better and last much longer.  Just
    be sure to use the correct receptical so that you don't inadverdently
    plug a 115 volt device into a 230 volt outlet.
    
    /Dave

    
    The code handbook I have is based on the '84 NEC (they come out about
    every 3 years).  The author is J. McPartland.  I think it's McGraw-
    Hill.  I got it through a book club for about $25, but I think Barnes
    and Noble has it somewhere in the $30 range.  I've seen it in some
    bookstores for around $60, but that's a bit much for the amount I'd use
    it (glad I held off).  There are other books that are good, but this
    one is very complete (too complete for most of us). 
    
    						- Rich 

    "Practical Electrical Wiring" by H.P. Richter, is another good one.
    He's the author of those $2 "Wiring Simplified" books you can get
    at Spag's and other places, but he also has a massive book available
    that covers everything anybody would every want to know.  It's quite
    readable, considering.  More so than the McGraw-Hill book, I think,
    although that one is very good too.
    
    Steve

    
    Re .0:
    
    	1 1/4" is the required spacing from walls, floors, ceilings,
    etc.  An exception is #8 and larger can be stapled to the bottom
    of joists in an unfinished basement.
    
    Re .16: 
    
    	That's the other book I was trying to recall the name of (Practical
    Electrical Wiring - Richter).  It is somewhat more readable, but still
    very complete. 

    Assume nothing !
    I'd like to add this $.02 worth. Not to embarress myseslf, but maybe
    save one more life, ASSUME NOTHING. Check every circuit before working
    on it with a reliable measuring/indicating device .. EVEN IF YOU
    HAVE ALREADY pulled the fuses !
    
    I pulled the cartridges_pair out of a 2 pair cartridge box, and proceeded
    to work on the circuits immediatley below it.
    
    I got careless (didn't check them), but found out later on (with
    a meter) that they were Cross wired. (see diagram, numbers go with
    the appropriate parts).
    
    
    
    	|-------|  |-------|
	C1     C2  C3     C4
    
    
    	F3     F4  F1     F1
    
    Oh, this was wired by a Licensed Master Electrician with about 30
    years experience (or more). But, in all fairness, it had been his
    own home, and not a "paid job".
    Bob
    	   

There as a previous discussion earlier on this, but I don't know where.

From my own personal experiences, I have done it both ways.  If you want an
inspection, you'll at least need a building permit!  I believe the regulations
are on a town by town basis, but I suspect at the minimum you ALWAYS need an
inspection.  The only thing that may vary is that some towns won't let you
do it yourself!

My own personal theory is that if you do it yourself and the house burns down
due to your wiring, how can someone prove that your wiring wasn't installed by 
the previous homeowner (tough to do it it's a new house).  The times I've used
inspectors was when adding rooms on where there can be no doubt who did the
wiring.

If you're really concerned and want to go by the book, call your town hall and
ask if homeowners can do their own wiring.  Better not give your name though
because if they tell you NO, you can no longer claim ignorance (something some
of us do on a regular basis).

-mark

                The person you want to contact is the Town Building
        and/or Wiring Inspector (sometimes they are the same person,
        sometimes not). It is my belief that new circuits require
        permits, and circuit changes (extension and/or repair) do not.
        However, it is up to the town as to what regulations they have
        on their books.
                
                /s/     Bob

    I'm finished conjuring up a wiring plan for an addition I've built
    onto my house, and before I start drilling holes and running wire,
    I thought it would make sense to run my plans by the local inspector.
    So, I called him first, and asked if he'd give a quick once-over
    the sheets, tell me if I'm on the right track, basically preclude
    any potential code violations before I'd commit them, right?  Well,
    he struck me as being an as_____, 'cause right off the bat, he says:
    "well, don't come to me looking for engineering help", and "I don't
    HAVE to review your home-made plans, I just have to come an inspect
    the final job".   After that, I haven't bothered to drag the plan
    to him; I'm seriously wondering if it'll be nickel-and-dime time
    if/when I ask him to actually inspect anything!  Which leads me
    to my question(S):   are there any key "code related" criteria that
    elec. inspectors look for, besides things like the following:
    	-GFCI rules
    	-spacing of outlets along walls (6 ft intervals, on clear runs?)
    	-maintaining color-code wiring continuity throughout
    	-max # of outlets per breaker circuit
    	-proper wiring and marking of wires in 3-way switching
    	-keeping in-wall wiring centered (1-1/2 in from surface) on
    	 studs
    	-no sharp-corner bends (not sure what minimum radius is) and
    	  stapling every 4 ft + 1 ft from bend
    	-# of wires coming into a box (anybody seen a summary of the
    	 box sizes and wire count limits recently?)
    
    I'm sure that there must be other things that a fanatical inspector
    could nitpick on; would appreciate hearing others'  experiences.
    p.s.- this guy is probably typical of small town inspector-types,
    in that he's a part time town employee, and an electrician by day.
    Damn if that doesn't sound like a conflict of interests!  
    Any help or suggestions will be appreciated!
    Jim
    

    
    
    
    You may be surprised to just how unprofessional some of these people
    really are. I put on a 20X30 playroom with a 17X12 master bedroom wich
    required gobs of electrical work and when the inspector came out
    he spent all of a minute looking it over. I don't think you will
    have a problem if you know the code, which it seems that you have
    done your homework.
    
    wayne
    
    
    

    Last inspection I had done, the guy was real fussy about the grounding
    in metal boxes, and the separation of closet lights from shelving.
    In the latter case there must be at least 18" from the fixture to
    the nearest point of the closest shelf unless the fixture is recessed
    or flourescent.

    I've dealt with 3 wiring inspectors and my guess is that
    you won't have a problem.  He'll probably come and mention
    minor things like you need more staples, or "next time... do
    it this way...".  He's right that he doesn't have to look
    at your plans, and since he probably doesn't get paid a lot,
    he probably doesn't won't bother.
    

I had a big job, nearly 100 boxes, (rough) inspected just last week.  Took 
all of five minutes.  A couple of probing questions, a couple of "next 
time, do it this way"s, and a few "you didn't have to use that stuff
there"s.  A painless, perfunctory experience; rather disappointing, since I 
had hoped the inspection would really verify that my installation was safe 
and legal.

Readers of this conference might be willing/able to do a better design
review/inspection job for you.  No guarantees, of course, but if you needed
a guarantee, you wouldn't be doing your own electrical work in the first
place.  I, for one, would be delighted to walk through your job if you're
reasonably convenient to Maynard.  And, of course, you can post your 
questions here.

Get a copy of Richter's "Wiring Simplified" (under $1 at Spag's) and
MEMORIZE it.  ALSO get a copy of the electrical code and read ALL of the
parts that are relevant to your job.  Richter provides a good guide to the
code and presents the concepts well; refer to the code itself for
specifics.  These two books won't teach you the tricks and techniques of 
the trade - I haven't found a good written source of those - but they'll
teach you the rules that the inspector must use. 

Note that your state probably amends the National Electrical Code (Mass.
does), and that your town might further amend it (Maynard doesn't). 

I know of one case where a licensed electrician wired an entire house, and when 
the inspector came he rejected it.  On what grounds? (no pun intented)  In all 
the metal junction boxes, all the bare ground wires were twisted together and 
firmly attached to the box with a screw.  BUT, code specifies that these screws 
be colored green, to identify them as ground.  I'm not kidding, the SOB made 
the electrician replace all the screws with green ones.

As if anyone who could not tell that the bare wires screwed to the box were 
ground could possibly be helped by the screw color.

Paul

    I have been looking for a copy of the National Electrical Code
    Standards. The book on "Wiring Simplified" sounds like a good
    book to have as a reference also. My problem is that I live in the
    Southern NH area and a trip to Spags is a little out of the way.
    Has anyone out there seen these publications anywhere up here? 
    
    Bill

    My inspector was really hot on making sure that I had a good ground
    connection everywhere.  He told me up front so I was extra carefull.
    All ground wires had to be twisted together for some minimum length
    (cant remember how much) and also had to have a mechanical crimp.
    
    When he came to inspect, he checked two boxes and left.  Of course,
    they met his standards.
    
    Jim Pappas

    Richter also have a big book out, "Practical Electrical Wiring"
    that's about 1.5" thick and goes into lots more detail than his
    "Wiring Simplified".  However, the little one ought to cover most
    of the stuff you need to worry about.
    I would think any bookstore could order it, if they don't have it
    in stock.

    I just had my final wiring inspection. Three things he pointed
    out, two he was happy with, one he was not. He was happy that
    I had not drilled holes in my wall studs to string the wire.
    I ran all my wiring in the atic and dropped them down the wall
    to each outlet box. He was also happy I used the plastic outlet
    boxes. What he was not happy with, but had to pass because it
    met code was the fact that I used 20 amp outlets that had the 
    wire enter from the back and you clamped the wire in the outlet
    by tightning a screw on the side. He wanted the wire wrapped
    around the screw instead. He spent more time talking about the
    wiring then he spent inspecting it.
    
    dave
    

    re .-1:
    Isn't it ok to go through studs as long as you have a certain amount
    of wood on both sides of the hole?  It used to be that they wanted
    2" but they would accept a hole through the center of a 2x4 (3.5").
    Less than 2" then a steel plate was required.  This is what I
    remember from years ago and don't know what the current code is.

Most installations do drill through the studs.  I think that the requirement is 
that the hole be exactly in the middle of the stud, and not larger than 5/8".  
This means that there is just under 1�" from the stud surface.  When combined 
with the standard sheetrock screw length of 1 3/4" (I think) for �" sheetrock, 
this leaves almost �" between the screw ends and the wires.  And yes, anywhere
where the wire is closer than that to the surface requires a steel plate.

Paul  

National Electrical Code (1981 edition, sorry), 300-4(a)(1):  "...holes 
shall be bored at the approximate center of the [structural wood] member.  
Holes...shall be bored so that the edge of the hole is not less than 1 1/4 
inches...from the nearest edge of the stud or shall be protected from nails 
and screws by either a steel plate or bushing at least 1/16 inch...thick 
and of appropriate length and width installed to cover the area through 
which nails or screws might penetrate the installed cable."

Thus you can drill a 1" hole dead center in a 2x4, with exactly 1 1/4" on 
either side.  If you drill a 3/4" hole, you can be off by 1/8" either way.

Protective steel plates of the right size for the edge of 2" lumber are 
available from electrical supply houses, better hardware stores, and 
Spag's.  They're called "stud guards".  About 15 cents apiece, as I recall.

But before you spring for any of these, use up any leftover metal box sides
- the ones you took off to gang the boxes.  They're exactly the right 
thickness, and have holes through which you can nail or screw them to the 
stud.  Do be careful not to penetrate your wiring as you do this!

For the most part, you won't need any protective plates.  Typical 
circumstances which require them are:

- 2x3 studs

- Wires run through plumbing holes

- Angled holes that, because of their angle, come closer than 1 1/4" to the 
  face of the stud.  Typically in tight drilling spaces, angles of walls, 
  holes through ceiling plates

- Botched or old holes that you use anyway

- If you know that long fasteners will be used near some wiring (for 
  example, to attach heavy cornice molding), it would be smart to protect 
  the wiring even if the code doesn't require that you do so.

    
    Hope I can join in here? I am hoping to start putting up studs on
    my basement walls this weekend. From what you folks are saying is
    it wiser for me now to notch the back of each stud for thr wire
    run?
     
    Excuse me if I add a couple of what would seem stupid questions.
    People mention the spacing between outlet boxes. Is this a minimum
    or maximum spacing and if it is max. does this mean I have to put
    boxes on the dividing walls of my basement conversion?
    Thanks.
    Bill.
    

>    Excuse me if I add a couple of what would seem stupid questions.
It's stupid not to ask and not pass inspection.

>    People mention the spacing between outlet boxes. Is this a minimum
>    or maximum spacing and if it is max. does this mean I have to put
>    boxes on the dividing walls of my basement conversion?
While I don't have a copy of the NEC to quote from, there is a
maximum distance between outlets.  The regulation ignores door
openings and walls less than one foot long.  I think that the
maximum distance is eight feet (I could be wrong).  Check your
local regulations as well.

Also keep in mind that it is a whole lot easier to install
outlets before you put up the sheet rock, than to retrofit your
job.

R.

    If you buy a copy of the NEC code (from the Nat'l Fire Protection
    Assoc. in Boston), don't get the edition that simply lists the code.
    Either buy the NFPA edition that they started making this year that
    includes the explanations, or buy one of the books on the market
    that include the complete code (usually in red) and explanations
    alongside. The best I've seen is Audel's - available at various
    Walden's books.  The plain code edition is great if you have insomnia.
     The most difficult thing about reading any of the codes (and I
    have them all!) is that most of the content is oriented towards
    non-residential buildings, and so you can get yourself all worked
    up over nothing by reading something that only applies to condos
    or supermarkets.
     

    What is the maximum number of outlets that you can put on a 20amp
    line these days.  I know it depends on the location.
    
    In:
    Kitchen,  Bathroom,  Garage,  Basement,  Remainder of house.
    
    Also are the spacing requirements different depending on location?
    Kitchen & Bathroom requires GFI.  Is GFI required for Basement
    or Garage?
    
    (I used to go out and do wiring when I was in my early teens for
    50cents an hour and take my tools there via a wheel barrow.  This
    was back in the early 60's and after about the mid 60's I no longer
    did wiring or kept up with the code)

    I have never seen a place which required GFI in the Kitchen.  In
    my house, the builder only put them in the bathroom (outlet only)
    and exterior outlets.  The exterior outlet is in series with the
    bathroom gfi.
    
    As far as the number of outlets on line, I as told by an electician
    friend that a good rule of thumb was to assume 1A for each outlet
    or light.  Then subtract 3 for good measure.  Thus for a 15A line,
    connect 12 devices, for a 20 amp line, you can have 17.  This was
    for 'normal' rooms such as bedrooms, dens, livng room etc.  In the
    kitchen, I think that each outlet has a seperate lead in my house.
    Note that this is not necessarily the code but rather 'free' advice
    from a friend.  I used it as a guide when I finished off my downstairs
    and passed my inspection ok.
    
    Jim Pappas

Seems like lots of good advice here so far! Thanks to all of you who
    responded.   Re: the question on distance between outlets, I've
    read severalplaces recently that "the minimum distance from any
    spot along an unobstructed wall to an outlet is 6 feet"; this means
    that outlets could be up to 12'apart and still meet code.  I think
    that's pretty spase, myself; I'd rather have them at least every
    8', or in some cases even closer.
       I'll keep this note open as I talk to electricians and people
    who might offer sage advice
       Meanhile, I'm going to go and get either a code book or one of
    the offspring of same just to cure my insomnia!
    Thannks again.
    Jim
    

    re .17:
    Years ago the code in PA was 4 outlets per 20 amp in the kitchen
    & basement and 8 elsewhere.

Many inspectors like to see two separate circuits feeding outlets on the 
kitchen counters, and even if the inspector doesn't care, it's a good idea.  
Fixing sunday brunch running a toaster, electric frying pan, microwave, etc is 
very likely to trip even a 20A breaker.

Paul

    I think the NEC requires outlets within 6 ft of a sink to be on
    a GFI, but I don't think MA does (it IS a good idea, tho...)
    
    I'll check the NEC when I get home..
    
    			...tek

Three years ago when I re-wired our house, the NEC said there must be
an outlet for every 12' of continuous wall at least 2' wide.  That is,

 - 12' of continuous wall needs one outlet
 - 12' of wall with a door needs 2 outlets if smaller section is at
   least 2' (one on each side of door)

The wiring inspector in Marlboro said this was the code but if you wanted
more - no problem.  For kitchens he wanted no more than 2 duplex outlets
on a circuit.  Each counter (at least 2' in length) must have an outlet.
However, if the counter is interrupted by a sink, there must be an outlet
on each side of the sink.  Also kitchens and family rooms must have 20A
circuits.  He pointed to my plans and asked if the room was a living room
or a family room.  It is a living room.  He said if it was a family room
he would insist on 20A.

For GFI's the code said they are required in bathrooms and "damp" areas.
As far as he was concerned, a basement is not damp so he did not insist
I install one downstairs.


Mark

   

    1987 version of the NEC in section 210-8(a)(4) (I think; the section
    is from memory) says all above-counter outlets within 6 feet of
    a sink require a GFI. This section has change bars by it, so I suspect
    this is a new requirement in the latest version of the NEC.
    
    					...tek

Several of the preceding replies contain speculation, hearsay, outdated 
information, and anecdotal evidence.  If you're trying to gather a general
impression of what electrical work is like, this information may be
helpful.  If you're trying to make a design decision, it may be misleading.

Do not take anything written in this conference as gospel.  If you're doing 
your own electrical work, obtain and read the NEC, and consult with your 
local wiring inspector, before you do anything that would cost you money to 
undo, and especially before you turn on the power.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that the 1987 NEC takes effect in
January.  Among other things, it requires GFIs in some new places.  You
should be sure to obtain the 1987 NEC.

I don't at all mean to discourage people from replying with their opinions, 
even if those opinions turn out to be wrong.  I just wanted to point out 
that there's a lot at stake in electrical work, and that the electrician 
must be responsible enough to refer to the right sources of information.

The NEC can be ordered from 

National Fire Protection Association
Batterymarch park
Quincy, Mass 02269

The 1987 NEC Handbook (J7-70-87-HB) sells for $39.50 (NFPA members $35.55)

The 1987 looseleaf version of the NEC (J7-70-87-LL) sells for $24.50
(NFPA members $22.05)

Credit card orders (MC and VISA) can be made by calling 1-800-344-3555
8:30 AM to 8:00 PM ET monday through friday.

This information was copied from the 1987 NEC. 

For those who are wondering why ordering through the NFPA, the NEC
is NFPA 70-1987. The NFPA is the sponser of the NEC (has been since 1897).
Once a new version gets written by the NFPA, the American National
Standards Council (ANSI) approves it.

In the front of the book there is this disclaimer"

"This Code is purely advisory as far as the NFPA and ANSI are concerned
but is offered for use in law and for regulatory purposes in the 
interest of life and property protection".

This is the standard only. If you want a reference with interpertations
and explinations as tto why some of the requirements exist, you need to
go to one of the handbooks published by McGraw-Hill and others. I usually
borrow the McGraw-Hill book from the Fitchburg Library. The have the 1984
version.

Bill

>    1987 version of the NEC in section 210-8(a)(4) (I think; the section
>    is from memory) says all above-counter outlets within 6 feet of
>    a sink require a GFI. This section has change bars by it, so I suspect
>    this is a new requirement in the latest version of the NEC.

Right!  The 'above-counter' qualifier allows the exemption of
below-counter dedicated outlets for refrigerator, stove, dish
washer, etc.  Also new: basements will count as damp places,
requiring GFI outlets.  Also new: definition of bath. 

Check out the many change bars in that two-page spread in the NEC book. 

    Geez, I just went to my local elec. supply place and they told me
    that the '87 code books weren't out yet; so I bought a 1984 version
    (Massachusetts version, or so it claims)... at $17.50 ... and I
    thought THAT was a ripoff!  I wonder, are we talking about the same
    book here??? $39 or thereabouts sounds like one of three possibilities:
    	1) I got a fire-sale price for the '84 book,
    	2) The '87 version constitutes a whopping price increase, or
    	3) What I got isn't what I shoulda got!
    I don't have it with me right now, so I can't quote the title, but
    I'll check it out tonight.   By the way, it has a few pages in it
    which are printed with "overlays" that say "effective Jan 1, 1987".
    
    JT
    

    You do not really need to purchase the NEC (unless you want it).
    Most libraries have a copy.  When I was drawing the plans for my
    rewiring, I just spent a few lunch hours at the library !
    
    
    Mark
    

There are actually a couple of issues being mixed here, the first is 
passing an electrical inspection and the second is safety.  I doubt is 
everyone gets everything they wire inspected (such as adding an extra 
switch or outlet).

Just to start a little controversy, I claim that a lot of the stuff in 
the code is a bit far fetched.  For example, I've seen some people 
saying that the inspectors have been clamping down on insulated staples 
(a little pun there).  Are they really that much safer than uninsulated 
ones if you're careful when using them?  What about the zillions 
already in place?

I had also heard at one point (don't know if it's still true) that one 
had to install outlets with the ground hole up rather than down!  The 
reason being that if a plug wasn't all the way in and someone dropped 
a tool and it happened to land across the prongs of the plug and it 
shorthed and it happened to cause an overload and it happened to start a 
fire, ...

I'm all for safety and don't want to do anything to burn my house down, 
but don't you think the code gets a little carried away?  If so, how do 
you figure out what's in there that is really necessary and what isn't?
I know, the obvious answer is that it's all there for safety.


-mark

re .27

The 87 edition is out because I copied the ordering information
from it. The copy I was looking at belongs to the Shirley Fire Chief
(I better remember to return it tonight). The NFPA has them in
stock, other sources may not have them yet. As for the price,
many standards organizations fund themselves partially by the
sale of thier standards.

Bill

    I got my 1987 paperback copy at a bookstore somewhere in Keene,
    NH (I was bored while my SO was shopping); I paid about $20 for
    it.  I've been using it for bedtime reading when I can't seem to
    get to sleep... the chapter on electrolytic cell lines usually does
    it for me... (really useful information if you plan on building
    your own aluminum refining plant in your basement!)
    
    					...tek

re .29, does it all matter:

Right, minor electrical work typically doesn't get inspected.  If what 
you're doing is simple, well understood, unlikely to draw an inspector's 
attention, and worked on by only one person, then you can probably do all 
the right, safe things by yourself without the code to guide you.

Larger electrical projects represent an astonishing increase in complexity, 
especially when those projects interact with other construction disciplines
such as heating or wallboarding.  I have found the NEC's level of specific
detail to be helpful in understanding and managing this complexity.

Larger, multi-discipline projects also typically involve inspections 
regardless of their complexity, especially if there are contractors 
involved.  This is where they get you, if you don't own your house 
outright:
    The mortgage bank requires insurance
    The insurance company requires a certificate of occupancy
    One of the prerequisites for the C. of O. is final building inspection
    One of the prerequisites for final building inspection is electrical 
    	inspection
Sure, you can fake some of these things out, but remember that there are 
big bucks involved, and that you are called upon to sign your name "under 
penalty of perjury" several times.

- Yes, much of the NEC doesn't apply to residential work; such sections are
clearly marked, and you may ignore them. 
- Much of the NEC doesn't apply to your particular house, and again, you
may ignore that part. 
- Some of the provisions concern safety issues that, perhaps, don't apply
to your lifestyle, but consider that the next owner of your house may 
well have different habits:  small children come to mind. 
- Finally, some of the NEC's provisions treat the electrician as an idiot;
but have some consideration for the next electrician to work on your house,
who may in fact be an idiot! 

re un-insulated staples:  I agree with you that they don't make that much 
difference, especially if you're willing to take the time and trouble to 
staple gently.  The pros definitely don't take that much time and trouble.
The insulated ones are a little harder to come by, a little more expensive, 
and very easy for an inspector to spot.

re ground hole up:  interesting, so that's why I've seen 'em done that way. 
I haven't seen any such thing in the current NEC; can anyone elaborate?  It 
does sound pretty stupid.  It also sounds like the sort of thing that the 
Massachusetts legislature would add (remember bathroom light switches?)...

    re .-1:
    What about bathroom light switches?

    re .31
    What is an 'SO'?

Re: -2 and -1

Once upon a time, in Massachusetts, switches which controlled 
lighting fixtures in bathrooms and lavatories were required to be 
mounted on the outside of said bathroom or lavatory.  Such would 
prevent one from accidently washing hands and turning on the 
light switch at the same time.  Needless to say, very confusing 
for the out-of-state guest, who searches frantically for switch 
in here somewhere.

SO 	is "Significant Other (person)".  
POSSLQ	is "Person of Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters".

    Ah yes, the elusive bathroom switch.  Our house was built when bathroom
    light switches had to be outside the bathroom.  Our bathroom looks
    like:

                    |                        |
                    |                        |
                    |          /       +-----+
                    |         /        |    bathroom
      living room   |        /         |<-- light switch
                    +-------+      +---+
    
                               hall
      kitchen       --------------------
    
    We have an intelligence test for our guest.  How long before you
    find the light switch.  Most end up asking about it.
    
    
                                                August G. Reinig
    

>    Ah yes, the elusive bathroom switch.  Our house was built when bathroom
>    light switches had to be outside the bathroom.  
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
			
I wondered why they are like that in our house (built 1966).  Was that
just in NH or everywhere??  And, *why*???

Frank

    If you think that some of the requirements for home electrical work
    in the US may be a little overboard, you should see Britian.  
    
    First, the electrical plugs are about the size of half a business
    card.  It has a fuse in it.  The live and neutral pins are about
    an inch long, and 1/4 by 3/8 in cross section.  The neutral pine
    is about the same though longer in length, perhaps 1.5 inches. 
    
    The sockets have switches, so that you can turn off the power to
    an appliance at the socket.  The live and neutral holes have little
    covers which allow prevent something from sliding in.  These covers
    are raised when something slides into the ground hole.  (Thus the
    reason for the ground pin being longer than the live and neutral
    pins.)
    
    I don't know what the wiring in the wall looks like.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

Topic 1303, "Soft Lighting", developed a digression on electrical inspections,
and on the number of wire nuts permitted in a box.  This lively discussion
developed in parallel with, and interleaved with, another lively discussion
more in line with the topic's title. 

These things happen in NOTES.  Nobody deliberately set off on a tangent;
the digression developed naturally and innocently.

But in the interests of keeping HOME_WORK a useful, well-organized reference
tool, I have untangled the parallel discussions, and moved the electrical
inspection / wire nuts replies to this topic.  I have done so with the consent
of the moderators of HOME_WORK, and with the permission of the author of
the reply that started the digression.

To set the scene for the copied replies:  in 1303.2, SMURF::YELGIN (signed
"Lou") had just finished wiring an addition, and recommended a wiring book.

================================================================================
Note 1303.3                       Soft Lighting                          3 of 19
3D::BOOTH "Stephen Booth"                            10 lines   8-JUL-1987 15:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	But did you get it inspected ? I just finished wiring my addition
    by one of those books and did what I thought was an excellent job.
    When the wiring inspector showed up he said the job was very neat
    and would work but I should call a real electrician who ripped it
    all out. Those books are great but they don't even come close to
    telling you everything you need to know.
    
================================================================================
Note 1303.4                       Soft Lighting                          4 of 19
LDP::BURKHART                                          1 line   8-JUL-1987 15:32
                           -< Destructive Criticism >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    	Was it "should" or "had to"??

================================================================================
Note 1303.7                       Soft Lighting                          7 of 19
3D::BOOTH "Stephen Booth"                             7 lines   8-JUL-1987 16:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	HAD TO !
    
    	It cost me $300 for materials and it cost $350 for a pro to
    due it. 
    
================================================================================
Note 1303.8                       Soft Lighting                          8 of 19
3D::BOOTH "Stephen Booth"                            30 lines   8-JUL-1987 16:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	I suppose I should elaborate on what was wrong.
    
    1.	Holes thru studs must be "MINIMUM CENTER"
    	This means holes must be in the center of the stud exactly
    
    2.	Holes in stud must be of a certain diameter, not just big enough
    	for your wire.
    
    3.	There must be an outlet at least every 6 feet
    
    4.	Lights in closet must be a certain distance from the front wall
    
    5.	wire nuts are not allowed in outlet boxes.
    	There is a special box that attaches to the side of an outlet
    	box just for wire nuts.
    
    6.	All switches, lights and outlets must be on a GFI
	in the bathroom
        
    7.	Wire must be stripped back to an exact length before being inserted
    	into an outlet or a switch.
    
    
    I live in Lunenburg and our inspector has a degree in electrical
    eng which makes all our contractors have fits. He is very strict.
    
	-Steve-

================================================================================
Note 1303.9                       Soft Lighting                          9 of 19
LDP::BURKHART                                        11 lines   8-JUL-1987 16:56
                                -< News to me >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re .8
    	I've read or heard all except for Number 5. If thats in the
    state code its not enforced in my town. I've got a 2 year old house
    with wire nuts in outlet boxes. 
    	Maybe I need a new code book, It seems to change with the phase
    of the moon.
    
    			thanks for the explanation
    
    
    						...Dave

================================================================================
Note 1303.10                      Soft Lighting                         10 of 19
VIDEO::FINGERHUT                                      8 lines   8-JUL-1987 17:47
                                -< inspectors >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm glad I don't live in Lunenburg!  I think Lunenburg and Townsend
    (where I live) used to share bulding inspectors.  
    I assume they don't anymore, since when the wiring inspector
    came to check my addition (where I added a second electrical
    panel... See "adding an electrical panel" note), the inspector
    never even went in the basement!
    Your note should save a lot of extra work for people who
    live in Lunenburg!

================================================================================
Note 1303.11                      Soft Lighting                         11 of 19
VIDEO::DCL "David Larrick"                           18 lines   8-JUL-1987 18:07
                           -< All in Code except #5 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All (except one) of the "surprises" in .8 would not have been surprises if
you had checked with the inspector ahead of time, and followed the
electrical code religiously. 

A few of these points are (arguably) "code nits", picky points of 
electrical practice that wouldn't matter, except the Code and inspector say 
you have to do them that way.  But most of them are directly related to 
safety.  I'm glad the inspector made you (actually made your electrician) 
rip it out and do it again, before your house burned down.


>    5.	wire nuts are not allowed in outlet boxes.
>    	There is a special box that attaches to the side of an outlet
>    	box just for wire nuts.

I've never heard of this one.  Can you give more detail?  Either this is a 
town amendment to the state Code, or you misunderstood somebody, or I've 
misunderstood your description.  Please enlighten us further...

================================================================================
Note 1303.12                      Soft Lighting                         12 of 19
3D::BOOTH "Stephen Booth"                            92 lines   9-JUL-1987 07:49
                 -< Inspectors invade Lunenburg, no survivers >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Yes Lunenburg does have its own electrical inspector now and
    all the electricians know of him and fear him as he goes by the
    book. Those little boxes for wire nuts are only required when there
    are more than 2 connections within a box. This rule almost always
    applies as new wiring is 3 wire in most new construction. The rule
    says that you may only have 2 wire nuts within a box. If you take
    the cover plate off an outlet there pretty hard to notice that there
    there. While I had the electrician at my house I had him replace
    my 60 amp service that had 5 fuse boxes to 1 40 breaker service
    with 200 amps for $800. That $800 dollars included:
    
    	40 breaker box with 30 breakers
    	1  GFI for my pool
    	meter was moved outside with its own breaker box containing
    		1 200 amp master breaker
    
    	I am not sure how he made that much money on my jobs as I added
    up how much it would have cost me for materials and I can pretty
    close to what he did it for. When the inspector came back for the
    final inspection he went over the whole job with a fine tooth comb
    and a flashlight for close inspection. He even pulled a breaker
    out of the box for a good look !
    
    	I also had a MIAMI CAREY fan that I wanted to put in the bathroom
    but it was really meant for the kitchen as it had a pull chain.
    There really is no difference between the 2 models except for the
    pull chain on the kitcen fan and automatic vent doors for the bathroom
    fan. He would not allow a pull chain in the bathroom so I had to
    have a switch installed and order louver(sp?) doors to replace the
    manual doors.
    
    	I forgot one other thing he made a fuss about and that was the
    lack of wire staples required to hold the wire to studs.
    
    
    	Since I wrote this much which is unusual I guess I tell a few
    more stories about my adventure.
    
    	Don't think (at least in LUNENBURG) that you can just get a
    building permit and screw the rest. Those guys all sit together
    and compare notes on who is building what and what permits did they
    not get. The wiring inspector was tipped off by the building inspector
    and just showed up one day for a look around. The next thing I know
    is the plumbing inspector shows up with the heating inspector. The
    heat guy really didn't give a S###. The plumbing inspector was ready
    to give me a fine on the spot for even thinking about doing my own
    plumbing. In the state of MASS it is illegal for any person other
    than a plumber to do plumbing. You can't even ask for a plumbing
    permit. He showed me the rules and if you want to get technical,
    a home owner is not allowed to replace a broken sink drain !
    
    	When my paper work went thru for the building permit they saw
    that it was for a bedroom. The keyword bedroom raises a flag in
    the permit department as it means that you now need 2 more permits.
    One from the board of health and one from the sanitary. When they
    see bedroom it means to them that you are increasing the number
    of people that will be living in the house and they want to make
    sure your not overloading the house and the septic system. They
    don't take into consideration that we were just building a new bedroom
    for ourselves so our 2 boys could have there own rooms(no new people).
    
    	I had bought alot of stuff for our new room and that included
    a valve for the bathtub that I got on sale. When the plumber looked
    at the valve he said it was illegal because it had a hot and cold
    knob. In MASS you are only allowed to put in single valves which
    are called (sp??) NON SCOLDING VALVES to prevent children from getting
    burned. How can all these places sell this stuff when it can't be
    used. Only 95/5 solder can be used now in MASS, no 50/50. I couldn't
    believe it when the plumbing inspector showed up with an OHMS meter
    and checked the continuity of the solder joints. If you use 50/50
    the meter will peg as opposed to 95/5.
    
    	Well, its finally done now with all the permits and signitures
    and we are just waiting for the carpet to come in so we can move

================================================================================
Note 1303.19                      Soft Lighting                         19 of 19
3D::BOOTH "Stephen Booth"                             7 lines   9-JUL-1987 13:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    	These seperate boxes are special just for wire nuts. You take
    one of the side panels off and this little box attaches to it.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    re .-1  
    
    	If you take the cover off the side of the outlet box to add
    the special box, how can you be sure the wire nuts stay in their
    assigned place?   .  (Ok, you wire nuts stay left, outlet,
    you keep to the right  :-))
                              
    I'll stand by my explanation of the volume requirements dictating
    the additional box. 
    

Working on the assumption that these cute little boxes add volume to bring 
the box up to spec, I've still never heard of 'em, and they sound useful.  
Where can I get some?  Who makes 'em?  What's the trade name for them?

I'm also interested in pursuing this method of counting wire nuts, if 
there's any validity to it.  The official method for determining box sizes 
is fairly cumbersome, and if there's a quick-and-dirty estimating method 
that's accurate enough to satisfy a very_picky_wiring_inspector, I'd like 
to know about it.

    Grossman's used to have them around.  I have never had to use them
    and if I was doing new wiring on a house that requried me to bring
    in more than two romex's into an outlet box I would go to a 4" square
    box with a single device plaster ring.  Those more than meet the
    required space.
    
    mac

Right, 4" square box with single plaster ring is one of my favorite tricks. 
But I can envision cases where the "little box for wire nuts" would come in 
very handy:

- working in a very thin (non-bearing, I hope) wall, a wall with 
  obstructions such as pocket doors, or a situation where boxes must be 
  placed back-to-back

- expanding an existing box to make room for more wires, e.g. tapping an 
  end-of-run box 

- making room for more wires in a multi-gang box, especially in walls that 
  don't have 3 1/2" depth 

Even in Grossman's, I refuse to ask for a "little box for wire nuts".  In 
my unfriendly local electric supply house, it's out of the question.  What 
is the right name for them?

I found my code book last night and it has a table with box sizes and
    number of wires plus a set of rules.  The example I mentioned earlier
    ("standard switch box" allowing only a 12 gauge with an outlet)
    works out like this:
    
    	3 x 2 x 2 1/2  switch box  = 5 no. 12 wires
    
    (sounds good so far)
    
    	Deduct 1 wire if box has 1 or more internal cable clamps (it
    does)
    	Deduct 1 wire if 1 or more bare grounding wires enter the box
    
    	Deduct 1 wire for each switch, receptacle or similiar device
    
    	=  2 no. 12 wires
    
    In other words, you couldn't run no. 12 wire out of this box to
    feed another one.
    
    ( a  3 x 2 x 2 3/4  = 6 no. 12 wires which, with the deductions
    mentioned above, still wouldn't let you run another pair of no.
    12 wires out of this box to another box.  You'd have to go to a
    3 x 2 x 3 1/2  = 8 no. 12 wires )
        
    

If you come up one wire short (as you did with the 2 3/4 box), you can
remove the internal cable clamp and use an external cable clamp. 

Another technique that sometimes gets one wire back is to use #14 instead
of #12 for some of the wires.  This method is definitely not for the faint
of heart, though.  The #14 has to be sensible and legal, as it is even on
20A circuits in certain obscure circumstances.  Certainly it's OK if you're
just using #12 for overkill on a 15A circuit with a long run, then want to
branch out from the first box in line. 

The calculations are also quite tedious for this case, since you have to 
use the cubic inch method.

    DCL_who's_not_an_electrician_and_doesn't_even_look_like_one

    	Whats your book say about 14 gauge wire?

This is the table in "Wiring Simplified" by H.P. Richter and W.C. Schwan
for determining box size.
        
    (I'd recommend getting a copy of the book if you intend to do any 
    electrical work - Spag's has it, of course, in the electrical department)

______________________________________________________________________________
Kind of box   |	size			|_____________Maximum number of wires_
	      |         		|No. 14	|  No. 12 | No. 10 |  No. 8 |
______________________________________________________________________________

Outlet box	4 x 1 1/4   round	  6	  5	      5		4
		4 x 1 1/2     or	  7	  6	      6 	5
		4 x 2 1/8   octagonal	  10	  9	      8	 	7

		4 x 1 1/4   square	  9	  8	      7		6
		4 x 1 1/2   square	  10	  9	      8		7
		4 x 2 1/8   square	  15	  13	      12	10
		4 11/16 x 1 1/2 sq.	  14	  13	      11	9
		4 11/16 x 2 1/8 sq.	  21	  18	      16        14

switch box	3 x 2 x 1 1/2		   3	   3  	      3		2
		3 x 2 x 2		   5	   4	      4		3
		3 x 2 x 2 1/4		   5	   4	      4		3
		3 x 2 x 2 1/2		   6	   5	      5 	4
		3 x 2 x 2 3/4		   7	   6	      5		4
		3 x 2 x 3 1/2		   9	   8	      7		6

handy box	4 x 2 1/8 x 1 1/2	   5	   4	      4		3
		4 x 2 1/8 x 1 7/8	   6	   5	      5		4
		4 x 2 1/8 x 2 1/8	   7	   6	      5		4

______________________________________________________________________________

The table must be correctly interpreted depending on many factors, as follows:

	1. Fixture wires smaller than No. 14 are not counted.
	2. A wire entering a box and running out again without splice (as is 
often the case in conduit wiring) is counted as only one wire.
	3. Deduct one from the numbers in the table if a box contains a 
fixture stud, a hickey, or one or more cable clamps (as in Fig. 9-10). The 
total deduction is one for each type of these items present in the box.  
Connectors for cable shown in Fig. 9.7 are not cable clamps for this purpose.
	4. Deduct one from numbers in table for each switch, receptacle or 
similar device or a combination of them if mounted on a single strap.
	5. A wire originating in a box and ending in the same box (for 
example the wire from the green terminal of a receptacle, grounded to the 
box) is not counted.
	6. If one or more bare grounding wires of nonmetallic sheathed cable 
enter the box, deduct one from the numbers in the table.


(Note: Fig. 9.7 shows external cable clamps; Fig 9.10 shows the typical 
internal cable clamps that come with most switch boxes)


(Copyright, National Electric Code; reproduced without permission)
                                      

Note that Richter's "Wiring Simplified" copies this table directly from the 
Code.  The copyright notice in .48 implies this, but I thought I'd say so 
explicitly.

Both Richter and the Code also give figures for how many "wires" per cubic 
inch a box can contain, for each of the wire sizes.  You use these numbers 
if you're mixing wire sizes in a box, or if your box isn't listed in the 
table.

I worked through the cubic inch method for several of the table entries, 
and found them to be consistent; i.e. there's nothing magical about the 
table entries, the Code has just done you the favor of working out the 
common cases and listing them explicitly.

Oh, one other point that's so obvious somebody may overlook it:  the table 
and formula give the MAXIMUM number of "wires".  You're welcome to use a 
bigger box than you strictly need.  You might do so to permit future 
expansion, to allow yourself more working room, or just because you don't 
have the smaller box handy.

    Re: .48
    
    >>(I'd recommend getting a copy of the book if you intend to do any
    >>electrical work - Spag's has it, of course, in the electrical department) 
    
      I was there yesterday and they don't have it (unless they moved
    them).  I bought one a few months back but it was the 1984 code.
    Has this book been updated for the 1987 code yet?
    
    -Jim
    
    

>   Has this book been updated for the 1987 code yet?
    
    Yes.  I have a copy (at home) of the book; there's a little thingie
    on the front that says it's been updated based on the 1987 NEC.
    
    I use three books:  two that have larger type and better pictures,
    and Richter's as a "mini technical reference".
    
    Jim

    I believe the name of the small boxes that you are talking about
    is "side cars". I used them when I wired several outlets useing
    #12 wire. I saw them at Spags recently. 
    
    They give you about 1/3 more space in the box, without changing
    the outside appearance of the outlet. 
    
    Steve

RE:-.1 and general comments/hints about dealing with inspectors

	My inspector called them "pregnant sides" and he like many
	of the town inspectors is an electrician.  Some free advice,
	don't ask for them under that name at an electrical supply
	they look at you like you had two heads.  In one of my books
	the correct name is listed with a code reference I believe.

	My inspector required me to use one anywhere I had 20A outlets
	with a feed in and a tap out.  He APOLIGIZED for not mentioning
	it when we discussed my plan (a  kitchen).  It wasn't all that
	bad to go back and add them and it does make it a lot easier
	to mount the outlet into the box with those very stiff 12 gauge
	wires.  The other thing he had me do was add a ground strap
	around the water meter which I never noticed was missing.

	He checked everything in the basement, and in the kitchen he was
	satisfied not to check the attic 5 down lights.  (Of course it
	was about 102 deg F up there last July :)  He told me to add 
	the sides and the strap and mail him the permit and he'd sign it.
	
	As I understand it this guy has a reputation among area contractors
	as being very picky.  I guess it pays of to do all that reading
	and drawing up plans.  I wish he had checked the attic though
	(I thought it was textbook perfect!)

	P.S. The McParland Code guide from McGraw-Hill (previously mentioned)
	     The Richter Practical Wiring (1.5") (previously mentioned)
	     Audel's Residential Wiring as a mini handbook, has box fill table

	I guess it's time for me to get a new NEC handbook now that mine's
	out of date again.

	These four books have been my mainstay.  I walked in with these,
	a scale plan of outlet/switch/light location wiring circuit id
	etc.  He flipped through McPartland's book which he hadn't seen
	and decided to go through my entire plan with me.  We spent a
	half hour and then shot the sh*# for another half hour.

	BOTTOM LINE:  These guys are people too and are placed in the
	uncomfortable position of having to judge our work, (our pride
	won't be offended if he doesn't like something, right?).  Based
	on this guys reputation I had spent extra time preparing my plans
	for this guys review and had been sweating it out.  This made
	his job easier and through my plans and conversation with him
	he felt comfortable I knew what I was doing.  He turned out to
	be a nice guy and extremely helpful.  Remember it's YOUR APPROACH
	that counts when dealing with inspectors (contractors too!)
	that will make it a positive or negative experience.  Even if
	it turns out the inspector is not willing to review your plans
	you can rest more comfortably KNOWING you did the job right!
	
	My two cents: Randy  --> Better make that a quarter :)

I have been looking for Richter's book(s) in the Merrimack-Milford NH area but
have been unable to find it.  Does anyone know where it is available in this
area?



Mark Parenti

RE: Richter's book

	Spag's was out of them a few weeks ago, but just got some in the
other day.  Price is $2.19, and the code specs are for 1987.  Next issue
will cover 1990 specs.

				:)

RE: .55 

>	Spag's was out of them a few weeks ago, but just got some in the
> other day.  Price is $2.19, and the code specs are for 1987.  Next issue
> will cover 1990 specs.

	This book is a good reference book (pamphlet would probably be
	more accurate) though it is not nearly complete as Richters
	other book.  Practical Home Wiring , maybe I have the title
	not quite right.  I paid $27.50 through the Popular Science
	book club and it was worth every dime.  It is published by
	McGraw-Hill in hardcover, I have also seen it on occasion at
	Waldenbooks.  If you intend to do larger projects or a lot
	of planning, consider this larger version in addition to the
	pamphlet.

	You might be able to get it when you join the Pop. Sci. Skill
	Book Club for a buck, I've seen it listed.  That's how I got my
	copy of McPartland's Code Handbook.

	- Randy

        A few random notes, based on a discussion with a Goffstown, NH
    electrician we might contract with in building our some-day-house.
    He referred to "code" - not sure if it's local or ...
    (Some of these I've read previously in this Notesfile, worded
    differently, perhaps.)

	- No pull chains are allowed (except maybe in the cellar?) -
	  wall switches are required.
	- Closet lights aren't done much anymore.  There must be 18" *on a
	  plane* (not direct line) between the light bulb and coat hangers!
	  (Most closets are built 24" deep, or so.)  There are ways of doing
	  this, but they seem either labor intensive or hard to live with.
	- GFI outlets are required if they are within 6' of a sink UNLESS
	  they're "covered", by a refrigerator, dishwasher, etc.  They're
	  required everywhere in the bathroom.
	- A deck MUST have an outlet.
	- Electric baseboard heat (of a high-output kind?) is figured at
	  7 - 9 watts per square feet of floor space.  Also, 250 watts
	  per 1 foot of baseboard.  (125 sq ft @ 8 watts = 1000 watts = 4 ft
	  of baseboard).  In 12' or longer stretches, an outlet can be
	  placed in the middle - to get the required 1 outlet per 12 ft.
	- On a detailed floor plan, I had sketched in all of our outlets,
	  switches, special appliances, etc., just because it was fun and I
	  thought it might help out with estimates.  He praised my effort,
	  not so much for its accuracy or readability (which are suspect), but
	  because, when I take it to contractors for estimates, I can compare
	  apples to apples; i.e. I can now ask "How much will you charge for x
	  outlets?" not "How much will you charge for wiring our new house?".
	- His estimate came in at $3450 (he's got five men).  A larger outfit 
	  came in at $4600!  We're still looking.
    Jon Reckard

    Just a nit, but the closet light rule does not apply if the fixtures
    are flourescent, or if they are recessed.  In this case the standard
    minimum distance of fixture to nearest permanent obstruction applies,
    which is 6".

what does a deck have to have an outlet??

    
    >> what does a deck have to have an outlet??
    
    (I read this as meaning "Why does a deck have to have an outlet??")

    
    My guess on this rule is so that extention cords are not run out
    doors/windows to get to the deck.  Because the deck will be outside,
    it will also have to be on a GFI line and any extention cords that
    are strung to the deck can come from non-gfi outlets.  The code
    is there to protect you (reguardless if you are Joe Smart or Al
    A--hole). 
    
    mac

    If you have a 2-level deck, is it assumed to be one deck or two
    (thus requiring an outlet at each section)?  I assumed the existing
    outlet for my deck would suffice when I replace the deck with a
    bi-level one.  But if there's one thing I've learned through this
    notes file is that it's not always safe to make such assumptions.
    
    rob

I finally broke down and bought a copy of the Mass Electrical Codes which is 
actually the national code with an addition of the Mass addendums.

what a major disappointment!  to begin with, the authors don't know how to write
and the organization is pretty lousy.  Now I know why people seek information
elsewhere.  Basically, it's a listing of EVERYTHING that has to do with
electricity from wiring your home to wiring a chemical plant.

I was able to get some information like how often to use staples, or how many
wires can fit into what size box, but that type of info I presume is available
in lots of places.

The few things I wanted to find out I couldn't even find and I honestly don't
even know if they are part of the code such as:

	o	how many outlets can you connect on a single circuit?
	o	are there  specical ways circuits must be broken up?
		(other than for convenience)
	o	do I need a separate circuit for a bathroom exhaust fan?

I guess all these fall into the capacity planning area and perhaps the code
doesn't care if you blow a lot of fuses just as long as you don't burn down
your house.

On another related subject, earlier there was discussion on how many cables you
could put in a clamp.  I didn't see anything in the code about this and was
wondering what it applied to.  I know on my breaker box virtually every clamp
has 2 cables.  As for the boxes, they're all plastic and so don't have (or need
to have) any.

I guess my whole point is am I better off looking at one of those home wiring
books?  I saw a couple and it looked like about the only thing they showed was
how to wire an outlet, swicth or light fixture.  I don't want anything that
basic and it seems like the code is too general.

-mark

    "The Code", by itself, is pretty awful to wade through.  It's possible
    to decipher most of it by a lot of digging and reading and re-reading,
    but even the National Fire Protection Association (the authors)
    have realized it's impossible to read and have, I believe, published
    an "annotated" version that explains what it says.  I've never seen
    a copy, just heard about it, but I assume it would be a bit less
    obscure. 
    "Practical Electrical Wiring" by H.P. Richter is a really good,
    complete, readable explanation of wiring that would probably be
    of much more use to you than "The Code", although it's nice to have
    that for reference too.
    

I sympathize.  Be reassured that things really do get better; the Code even 
starts to make sense in a warped sort of way after awhile.  

When I undertook a major wiring project recently, my bookshelf consisted of
two books:  Richter's smaller book, "Wiring Simplified", and the Mass. Code.  
I read Richter cover-to-cover and felt pretty well versed in generalities
and the typical cases; for several specific oddball cases, I turned to the
Code itself, and Richter helped me understand how to do so.  I referred to
both books frequently during both the planning and the installation phase
of the project. 

Reading Richter cover-to-cover, even the farm wiring stuff, helped me to get 
into the "culture" of electrical work, helped me feel more confident that I 
knew how the whole picture fits together.  His writing style often uses 
specific examples to make generally useful points, so you need to read the 
whole book to find 'em all.  (Big deal; it's only 50 pages or so).

Reading the entire Code cover-to-cover, including the chemical plants, is
probably not a good idea unless you're an insomniac.  (I had a personal
interest in the special provisions for data processing equipment and for
theaters, so I perused these even though they had nothing to do with my
project).  The Code is best viewed as a reference work (as opposed to a
tutorial); Richter teaches you about its organization so you can refer to
it without undue distress.  Maybe Richter's most valuable contribution is 
teaching you the right buzzwords, so you can use the Code's fairly complete 
index effectively.

One more point that might help you make more sense of the Code:  it
specifies not only wiring practices, but also standards for manufacturers
of electrical equipment to follow.  Thus it specifies in excruciating
detail what boxes can be made of, how thick their walls need to be, what
their allowable dimensions are.  As a buyer and installer of boxes, rather
than a manufacturer, the information you need to know is interspersed with
this stuff:  what boxes may be used for what purposes, how many wires a 
given size can hold, and so forth.  With practice, you develop an eye for 
what applies to you and what doesn't.


On to .19's specific questions.  These comments are off the top of my head, 
so you other code-freaks, please correct anything silly:


>	o	how many outlets can you connect on a single circuit?

There are specific provisions for outlets greater than 20A.  For 15A or 20A 
outlets (the kinds commonly used in residences), there is no limit.  
However, if you can anticipate what types of loads will typically be
plugged into the outlets, you're supposed to add up those loads and not
exceed the circuit's capacity.


>	o	are there  specical ways circuits must be broken up?
>		(other than for convenience)

Two 20A circuits must serve the kitchen.  These may also extend to the 
dining room (for warming trays and so forth).  Certain appliances must have
dedicated circuits, and it's advisable for others.  I think that's all for
a typical residence. 


>	o	do I need a separate circuit for a bathroom exhaust fan?

No.  It need not even be GFCI, unless it's cord-and-plug-connected 
(although GFCI wouldn't be a bad idea).


> I know on my breaker box virtually every clamp has 2 cables.  

I'm pretty sure this isn't kosher.  Can somebody cite chapter and verse?


> As for the boxes, they're all plastic and so don't have (or need
> to have) any [clamps].

I don't understand this statement.  All cables need to be clamped to their 
boxes, either by internal clamps or by external ones. 

    I asked once before somewhere in this file (maybe even an earlier
    reply to this note) ...
    
    Where can I obtain a copy of Richter's bible ??  How much ??
    
    I have never seen it in the book stores or mail order.  Where did
    you get yours and where can I get mine ??

    Richter's "BIBLE" Wiring Simplified can be found in Spag's electrical
    department for a couple of bucks. I sure any decent book store would
    also have it or could get it. You probably could also find it at
    electrical supply outlets.
    
    Re. Clamps and plastic boxes. I have seen 3 versions of boxes,
    
    1. Hard plastic box with metal clamp and screw arrangement inside
       the box to hold cable.
    
    2. Plastic box with "springy" tab mounted near wire hole that you
       push the wire past and the tension of the tab plus ridges on tab
       hold cable in place. 
    
    3. Plastic box with no built in clamp. These are typically the single
       boxes for switches and outlets. I use these a lot, no clamps
       of any kind, just staple the wire within a couple of inches of the
       box. This has passed by the electrical inspector with no problems.
    
    Charly

    I've found Richter's in the electrical section of most good hardware 
stores.  I've never seen it in a book store at all, but that doesn't 
mean you won't find one that carries it.  A new edition comes out every 
time the code changes (every three years?) so you have to make sure you 
have a current (no pun) one (1987 is current -- next would be 1990, if
I'm right about the three years.) 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Just a clarification: Richter has two books, the small "Wiring
    Simplified" and a rather massive "Practical Electrical Wiring."
    The smaller is a very abridged version of the larger.  Probably
    for most stuff the smaller one will tell you what you need to 
    know, but for detail you might want to get the larger one.
    

    re: .20
    
    Section 370-7 (Conductors Entering Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings)
    of the NEC has 4 sub-sections.
    
      a) Openings to be closed
      b) Metal Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Fittings
      c) Nonmetallic boxes
      d) Conductors No. 4 AWG or Larger
    
    b) is somewhat vague; it has no specific statement about multiple
    wires in one clamp.
    
    c) is a little more clear; "...Where nonmetallic boxes are used
    with open wiring or concealed knob-and-tube wiring, the conductors
    shall enter the box through individual holes. ..."
    
    I'll see if I can find something else in a different section that
    will be more conclusive.
    
    
    Mark

    My service box has two cables in most clamps - no problem with
    inspection.

    Could someone tell me what the code says about light switches in
    a bathroom?
    
    A friend is re-modeling and wants to have seperate switches for
    the overhead and vanity lights. We have been unable to determine
    if it's legal to put the switches in the bathroom.
    
    So, do light switches for a bathroom have to be:
    
    A) Outside the bathroom
    B) Can be inside the bathroom, but, have to be x distant from 
       tub and sink
    C) Anywhere you want
    D) None of the above; please specify.
    
    Thanks, 
    	Alan

re < Note 220.29 by AKOV68::CRAMER >

Yes switches can bne in the bathroom, BUT they must be correctly 
grounded and downstream of a GFI.

Chuck

     Disagree with .30.  GFIs only apply to OUTLETs in bathrooms, not
     the lights.
    
    
    
>        So, do light switches for a bathroom have to be:
>    
>    A) Outside the bathroom

       No.  Used to be the case in Mass, but no longer enforced.
        
>    B) Can be inside the bathroom, but, have to be x distant from 
>       tub and sink

       Yes. I don't know of any "x" distance for light switches, but
       I can imagine you wouldn't want it in a shower stall or some
       such unreasonable place.     
    
>    C) Anywhere you want

       "Anywhere" is awfully broad. How about on a wall, and out of
       the reach of small children (40-45" off the floor).
    
    

I agree with .31 completely, with a couple nits:
    
>>        So, do light switches for a bathroom have to be:
>>    
>>    A) Outside the bathroom
>
>       No.  Used to be the case in Mass, but no longer enforced.

Actually, "no longer in Mass. Code".
        

>>    B) Can be inside the bathroom, but, have to be x distant from 
>>       tub and sink
>
>       Yes. I don't know of any "x" distance for light switches, but
>       I can imagine you wouldn't want it in a shower stall or some
>       such unreasonable place.     

Correct.  Neither the NEC nor the Mass. amendments to it have any specifics 
about distance from bathroom fixtures - although local inspectors might 
have strong opinions on the subject, so check with your inspector if you're 
planning to do anything weird.

The NEC does have a maximum height at which a switch may be installed, but 
it's something ridiculous.  I forget the exact number, but it's something 
like seven feet from the finished floor.

Oh, so that's why so many bathrooms have the switch outside...thought 
it was just a cheaper way of building - so - does anyone know (I'm 
just curious) the justification for putting this in the code, and for 
taking it out?   /thanx	/j  

    I don't think that it ever was in "THE" code.  I'm from western
    N.Y. and NEVER saw a bathroom switch on the outside until I moved to
    Mass.  I thought it was a local custom or something.  It is handy to 
    see if who ever is "in there" is still awake or not by flicking
    the light off.  Does anyone in other parts of the world have any
    insight as to the locations of these all important switches?  My
    present house (in Mass.) has it on the inside in the 2 full baths,
    and on the outside on the 1 half bath which does have an inside switch
    for the fan.
    
    Fran

    The NEC can be amended/overridden by state codes.
    State codes can be amended/overwritten by local codes.
    Etc.
    
    The bathroom switch thing was in a Mass addendum to the NEC.
    
    I have no idea why it was put in.
    It was taken out because it was silly.
    

On the same idea I wanted to put a vent fan/light in the new shower
    stall I'm building.  Is anyone familiar with any water tight fixtures
    made for this purpose.  Is it acceptable to......"THE CODE" (NH code)?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    just wired the 'new' bathroom I had put in - actually tore the old
    one to the studs and had it redone - ran a line (12/2) from a separate
    breaker to a GFI and then fed the other outlets, lights and ceiling
    fan in the room.
    
    The GFI I used had 'feed-thru' capability and said if it was the
    first item after the breaker, would protect all following circuits.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    re .31: Anything in the code that says a GFCI _can't_ protect a
    wall-switch/light-fixture? It's certainly electrically possible!

re: .35    

> The bathroom switch thing was in a Mass addendum to the NEC.
> I have no idea why it was put in.
> It was taken out because it was silly.
    
I can't make any comment on why the feature was added and then deleted from 
the Mass. code, but in the UK the code does not permit any electrical
outlets in a bathroom, and requires the light switch to be either outside,
or to be a pull cord activating a switch in the ceiling.

The rationale for this is that bathrooms can be _very_ humid and this can
lead to condensation on electrical fittings / devices.  Now water is a good
conductor of electricity ....  Another obvious benefit of this piece of
code is that it prevents you touching electrical apparatus with wet hands.
Personally, I have always thought that this was one of the more sensible
provisions of the UK electrical code.

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

                Re .-1
                
                So how do you use your electric shaver?????
                
                
                /s/     Bob

The Massachusetts custom of putting the light switches
outside the bathroom has always seemed silly to me, since
every bathroom I've seen in MA also had electical outlets
in the bathroom, which presumably provide much more shock 
danger than a light switch.  However, now that ground fault
interruptors are cheap and widely available, one can have
switches and electical plugs in the bathroom and be completely
safe.  A ground fault interruptor is a device that trips a
circuit breaker if it detects a low resistance to ground.
I've seen them sold for $10 to $20 as an outlet plate that
you can install in place of your existing outlet.  If you
wire the bathroom light on the protected side of the GFI,
then you can't be electorcuted by the light switch, either.  

	Larry

    Re: .40
    
    The UK Code allows only a special type of outlet called (Surprise)
    a shaver outlet to be installed in a bathroom.  Shavers in Europe
    have a special kind of plug that is different from regular plugs.
    
    This shaver outlet has a transformer inside and costs pounds MANY.
    They often supply 110 Volts or 220 Volts so that Yankee visitors
    don't have to grow a beard.  Exactly what else is inside beats me,
    but I guess that they are super-safe in some sense.  Maybe they
    have GFCIs too.
    
    When I first came to the US I discovered that my Universal Shaver
    plug was useless here, and had to cut it off.
    
    	Andrew
    

Re: .42

Ah, yes - how could I have forgotten those shaver outlets ?  You live
thirty-odd years in a place, you move out and twelve months later you
have forgotten all sorts of things .....

Those shaver outlets are really _meaty_ pieces of gear.  They tend to 
be five or six inches deep - which makes them a swine to flush-fit into
most walls - and they weigh a ton! I have a sneaking suspicion that the
code specification for these was drawn up by some ex Ministry of Defence
character who 

    noticed in the local emporiums (Rickels, Channel, Mr. Goodbuys)
    here in New Jersey -
    
    	lots of two wire outlets (no ground hole)
    
    they still sell them here!
    
    	-Barry-
    

		--- Grounding Requirements For Swimming Pools ---

Does anyone have info on what the grounding requirements are for an above 
ground swimming pool? I realize that the pump motor must be connected
through a GFCI but I also heard that all metal parts of the pool itself must
be grounded to the motor case ground.

My pool has lots (read more than 75) of individual metal components that
bolt or screw together. Do I need to ground each part? 


					Bob...

    
    
    I don't know what the minimum requirements are but I have a
    15x30 oval above ground pool and I grounded it with a #8
    solid copper wire to the ground on the pump motor and a
    separate #8 solid copper wire to 6 of the uprights. It passed
    electrical inspection about 2 months ago.
    
    Len DiPinto
    

    
    I apologize if this question has already been asked and answered,
    but I have been unable to track down an anwser.
    
    I too am in the process of finishing my basement, and am at the
    point where I am ready to begin wiring. A friend of mine once told
    me that the code states that all outlets in a basement must be a
    certain distance up from the floor (presumably to protect against
    a potential flood). Is this true, And if so, how high must I go?
    Also, do these outlets HAVE TO be GFI ??

    
   	-Tim Finan
    

>< Note 583.65 by LEVEL::DCL "David Larrick" >
>                            -< GFCI for basements >-
>
>    Per the 1987 National Electrical Code, all outlets in a basement must
>    be GFCI.


What?????????   Please tell what article and section states this.

How about: 210-8 Ground Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

	(a)
		(4) At least one 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere
receptacle installed in a basement shall have ground fault circuit-interrupter 
protection for personnel and shall be so identified.

This is a new code requirement to protect the furnace repair man when servicing
the heating/water heating system.

Ross

>< Note 583.64 by TOOK::FINAN "Tim Finan LKG2-2/BB9 x226-7606" >
>                                 -< outlets  >-
>
>    
>    I apologize if this question has already been asked and answered,
>    but I have been unable to track down an anwser.
>    
>    I too am in the process of finishing my basement, and am at the
>    point where I am ready to begin wiring. A friend of mine once told
>    me that the code states that all outlets in a basement must be 
>     certain distance up from the floor (presumably to protect against

Not true. If you're finishing the basement, place the outlets std. 16-18"
from the floor. Don't mount metal boxes directly to concrete.
I assume if you are "finishing" off the basement, it must not have much of a
water problem?

>   a potential flood). Is this true, And if so, how high must I go?
>    Also, do these outlets HAVE TO be GFI ??

 

One outlet in the basement must be GFI and should be located near the heating
system.   
>   	-Tim Finan
    


Ross

While we're on the subject of GFI's, some may not be aware of another new
GFI requirement: Kitchen counter top outlets within 6 feet of the kitchen sink.
Article 210-8 section (a) note (5).
BTW, not new, but a requirement: All garage outlets should be GFI with two
exceptions:  not readily accessible outlets and dedicated appliances which are
cord and plug-connected in accordance with Section 400-7.

Ross

>< Note 583.63 by SUBSYS::FILGATE >
>                    -< re: gfi on decks; where in the NEC? >-
>
>re: outlets required for decks
>
>Is this outlet above and beyond the NEC requirement for a GFI outlet on 
>the outside of every building?  Are two GFI outlets now required?  Could 
>someone with the current code give the section or type in the text?


A bit late, but:  There is no code requirement for a deck outlet. There is a
requirement to have (1) GFI outlet outside at grade level. Grade level is 
defined as being not more than 6 ft 6" above grade and readibly accessible 
without entering or passing through a dwelling unit. There is nothing
to prevent you from adding a second deck accessible GFI outlet if you wish to.
The code just stipulates there must be (1) GFI with direct grade level 
accessibility. See 210-8 (a) (3) and fpn. below.


Ross

    re .66 re .65:
    
    Oops.  I defer to .66's more precise knowledge of the Code.
    
    Don't believe everything you read in HOME_WORK, unless it's been around
    long enough to have been challenged!

< Note 583.67 by MAMIE::THOMS >

>>.......... Don't mount metal boxes directly to concrete.

	Where/why did this come from?

bjm

What about grounding of switches?  I know that for a metal box, you simply
connect the ground to the box and the switch in turn grounds to box as well.
BUT - for plastic boxes the switches need a grounding screw.  

I want to install some dimmers and have not been very lucky finding any with a
grounding screw and although everyone says to simply attach the ground to the
place where the switch is screwed into the box, my fear is that my inspector
won't pass it - I plan on callng him anyhow but thought I'd toss this out here
for discussion.

My reason for concern over not being allowed to do this is that the inspector
specifically told me that you cannot connect the ground with a screw that is
being used for anything other than gounding (ie you can't use a screw connected
to a clamp).  If this does indeed turn out to be the case, what are 
my alternatives?

-mark

RE:
  < Note 583.72 by NETMAN::SEGER "this space intentionally left blank" >


>What about grounding of switches?  I know that for a metal box, you simply
>connect the ground to the box and the switch in turn grounds to box as well.
>BUT - for plastic boxes the switches need a grounding screw.  

	Even if you do have a metal box, the device (switch, recep....)
still needs to have a ground screw, at least in any town that I have worked in.
But for dimmers, I have never seen a dimmer with a ground screw.  I have seen
ones that come with a "grounding pigtail" that has an crimped end designed to
be used with the mounting 6/32 screws.  I have only seen these recently.  I have
not seen an inspector not pass a job because of a ungrounded dimmer.  As a 
matter of fact, I have not seen an inspector open anything up to look at it 
durring the final inspection.


>My reason for concern over not being allowed to do this is that the inspector
>specifically told me that you cannot connect the ground with a screw that is
>being used for anything other than gounding (ie you can't use a screw connected
>to a clamp).  

	This is very true.  You can not wrap the ground around any screw used
to hold anything in place.

bjm

>< Note 583.71 by CADSE::MCCARTHY "Send your cats to Alf" >
>                               -< is this code? >-
>
>< Note 583.67 by MAMIE::THOMS >
>
>>>.......... Don't mount metal boxes directly to concrete.
>
>	Where/why did this come from?
>
>bjm


No, not really code, but good wiring practice. The code does have a somewhat
general chapter on Protection Against Corrosion, Article 300-6.

Ross

    RE: .71, .74
    
    Funny this should be brought up.  I was thumbing through Audel's
    book at Spag's last night ($16.95) and noticed a section which
    mentioned that boxes (or panels, not sure which) must be mounted
    a certain distances from concrete ( 1/4" inch maybe).  I can't quote
    section paragraph and verse but I did see something about it.
    
    RE: GFI in basements
    
    Wasn't the reasoning that basements are now considered "damp" places
    and require GFI protection?  Whether or not the code requires it, I
    don't think it's a bad idea to protect them.  Then again, I'm pretty
    conservative and tend to over-spec what ever I do.
    
    my 2 pesos...
    
    Phil

>< Note 583.75 by VINO::GRANSEWICZ "Which way to Tahiti?" >
>                       -< Could be faulty memory but... >-
>
>    RE: .71, .74
>    
>    Funny this should be brought up.  I was thumbing through Audel's
>    book at Spag's last night ($16.95) and noticed a section which
>    mentioned that boxes (or panels, not sure which) must be mounted
>    a certain distances from concrete ( 1/4" inch maybe).  I can't quote
>    section paragraph and verse but I did see something about it.
 
If the area the box is mounted on tends to be damp or is subjected to water
mist or whatever. It is required to be spaced out a 1/4". It's not a bad
idea to have any metal box "off" the concrete, damp or not.
   
>    RE: GFI in basements
>    
>    Wasn't the reasoning that basements are now considered "damp" places
>    and require GFI protection?  Whether or not the code requires it, I
>    don't think it's a bad idea to protect them.  Then again, I'm pretty
>    conservative and tend to over-spec what ever I do.
>    
>    my 2 pesos...
>    
>    Phil


I believe the intent of this new code requirement is to protect the homeowner or
tradesmen that perhaps would be using power tools in the basement. Now if
you have a finished basement the chances are slim that you or anyone else will
be running power tools in the "finished" area. If you wish, you can place the 
GFI outlet in the basement circuit so the balance of outlets are protected.
(first outlet would be GFI).

Ross

    re: .72, .73
    
    I asked a similar question in the X-10 conference, since X-10 wall
    switch modules don't have grounding screws.  The reply there was
    that the modules don't need to be grounded, for some value of "need".
    I don't know whether that's "they don't need to be grounded to meet
    code" or "most EE's would consider them safe, regardless of the
    bureaucratic reuirements of the code."  I suppose it's possible
    that something about the innards of the X-10 modules makes them
    different from ordinary switches (doubly insulated, perhaps?).
    
    Come to think of it, I'm going to look at some of my modules to
    see if they have UL approval.  If they have UL approval, I'd take
    that as a good sign.  I also welcome opinions from people more familiar
    with the code.
    
       Gary

    A couple  of questions on mounting outlets in the basement. How do
    you  keep  a utility box 1/4" from the cement wall? Shim it with a
    wood scrap?

    Second, I  seem  to  remember people complaining that GFIs weren't
    too  reliable  when used with motors such as power tools. (And one
    in my kitchen lasted less than 6 months before dieing with nothing
    but a toaster on its circuit.) Do I just plan on replacing the GFI
    every 6 months?

--David

>< Note 583.78 by ULTRA::WITTENBERG "Secure Systems for Insecure People" >
>                         -< GFI in basement questions >-
>
>    A couple  of questions on mounting outlets in the basement. How do
>    you  keep  a utility box 1/4" from the cement wall? Shim it with a
>    wood scrap?<

You can use wood. I wouldn't get too carried away with keeping galvanized
boxes off concrete. When I mentioned this, I was envisaging a wet/damp basement
and in this case it would be a good idea not to mount directly to concrete.



>    Second, I  seem  to  remember people complaining that GFIs weren't
>    too  reliable  when used with motors such as power tools. (And one
>    in my kitchen lasted less than 6 months before dieing with nothing
>    but a toaster on its circuit.) Do I just plan on replacing the GFI
>    every 6 months?
>
>--David


Use a GFI circuit breaker or change vendors on the GFI outlet.

    	I need to move an outlet circuit and the only place I have to
    run the new circuit is next to one of the upstairs FHA vents.  There
    will be about a 2" space betseen the wire and the actual sheet metal
    of the vent, the wire will be stapled to an adjacent 2X4.  Is this
    legal and to code for Nashua electrical work?  
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

RE:-1  You should be o.k. having an outlet next to a FHA vent. What you don't
want to do is place a receptacle above electric heat baseboard. If in doubt,
ask the inspector before moving the recepticle.

Ross

    I don't think I made myself clear.  What I want to do is move an
    outlet.  To do this I need to run the cable inside the wall next
    to the FHA ductwork inside the wall.  It's not really a matter of
    placing the outlet box near a FHA heating vent.
    
    George

    
    RE: .49
    
    I've wondered the same thing.  I've got a few wires that run above
    my FHA ductwork and they appear to be affected by the heat (a tad
    brittle).
    
    How about using wire meant to be buried.  I think the outside
    sheathing is supposed to be tougher.  Or a small ^ above the wire
    made of foil back foam insulation.  I'm going to just re-route my
    wires.  It doesn't sound like you have this luxury.
    
    Phil

re: a couple back

why on earth can't you put an outlet above an electrical baseboard heating unit?
for openers, isn't that in conflict with the one that says you have to have an
outlet every 12 feet?

-mark

>why on earth can't you put an outlet above an electrical baseboard heating unit?
>for openers, isn't that in conflict with the one that says you have to have an
>outlet every 12 feet?
>
>-mark

Put your hand close to an electric baseboard when it's on! You'll understand
why you can't have an electrical cord dangling in front of it. Yes you can
still meet code with outlet spacing by being careful in laying out
the room. An electric baseboard, even the higher wattages, aren't that long.


As far as having romex come within a couple inches of a FHA duct: I wouldn't
worry about it. 


Ross

	The reasoning behind the "no electical outlets above electrical
    baseboard units" is because, as .52 mentioned, the heat.  The "code
    writers" felt that a standard lamp cord could too easily fall into 
    the baseboard and melt.

	As for the every 12 feet (is this correct, I though it was every
    six running feet for residental?) when the heating plan/electrical
    plans are drawn up, the electrician needs to use several short
    pieces to allow for the outlets.  I have not seen a piece of 
    electrical base board 12 feet long anyway!  This does not hold true
    for forced hot water baseboard (nowhere near as hot).

bjm

re: .53
>	As for the every 12 feet (is this correct, I though it was every
>   six running feet for residental?) ...

I think it IS 12 feet.  The six feet you have in mind might be what results -
any appliance/whatever (placed along the wall) should be no more than 6' from
an outlet.  This was my own MISunderstanding when I sketched a floor plan for
the electrician who wired our house - I had zillions of outlets, not because
I wanted them, but because I thought the code said I had to.  The electrician
straighted me out and used the twelve-foot standard.

    RE: - a few
    
    The code is for 12' between outlets WITH exceptions which require
    them closer.  For example, you cannot cross an open doorway within
    the 12'.  For a better understanding of the meaning, I usually follow
    the rule:  Anything which is placed inside of a room must not be
    farther than 6' from an outlet when measured along the perimeter
    of the room.  This includes corners.  See below:
    
    
    +-----------   -----------
    |^^^^^^^o
    |<
    |<
    |<
    |<
    |o
    
    The distance between o-o  should be measured following the path
    of the ^ and <.
    
    
    As far as the heater goes, if the 12' rule shows that an outlet
    should go in the middle of the heater, most electicians would opt
    to place two outlets on the wall.  One on either side of the heater.
    Remember that the code specifies a maximum distance between outlets.
    You can always have more.  Keep in mind though, that you can only
    have 5 duplex outlets per circuit. (If memory serves me correctly.)
    
    Hope this helps,
    Dan   
    

Geez.... The code says:


210-52. Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. ....................
, receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the floor line 
in any wall space is more than 6 feet (1.83m),
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This means 12 foot spacing: In other words an appliance with approx. a 6 ft cord
can be plugged into one of two outlets.
                 6ft			     6ft      
#outlet 1------------------appliance--------------------#outlet 2
	.....................12ft.......................

Most appliance/lamp cords are approx. 6 feet long, so the code is written for
convenience and safety (ample outlets and not too far spacing).
There are some exceptions: So read the code if in doubt.
AS far as the outlet over electric basebopard goes: Yes a cord will do a melt 
down if draped over the baseboard. The outlet must be 8" away from the edge
of the electric baseboard unit.

Ross

    I'm wondering whether the positions of the baseboards and outlets
    really indicates where the cords will hang.  We have a waterbed
    positioned against a wall, above the baseboad.  (The baseboard is
    in a silly place, but that's another story).  The base of the bed
    is about a foot away from the wall, while the headboard, which is
    next to the wall, is a couple of feet above the baseboard.  So I
    don't think the furniture is in danger, since there's plenty of airspace.
    
    The problem is the cords from the headboard lights and the X-10
    controller, which run to outlets on either side of the baseboard.
    I now need to check to make sure they're really distant from the
    baseboard, and, if necessary, secure them away from the heat.
    
    This code seems insufficient to me.  While most people know to leave
    some distance from baseboards to furniture, there's nothing to
    discourage a person from putting a nightstand or other table near
    a baseboard, and running a wire from there to the nearest outlet.
    
    Besides, our baseboards never seem to get all that hot.
    
       Gary

     I ran some new romex from the basement to the attic and then down to 
the second floor.  Part of the vertical run is next to the chimney, since 
it goes from the basement to the attic.  Are there any restrictions about 
putting wires next to the chimney?

     When you add an outlet by dropping the wire down from the attic, is
the requirement to staple every 4.5' excepted?  What about in a run in the 
basement ceiling?

     Is a GFCI required in an outlet in an unfinished attic?

    Re: .56 & .57
    
    I was surprised by the outlet over baseboard electric code but it made
    sense after I asked about it. We built 2 years ago and when we put
    candles in the window at Xmas we have to run extension cords to the
    outlets and be real careful about securing them to the underside of the
    window sill. Most of my heat is under windows and most of my Xmas
    candles have 3-4 foot cords (.57 - Are these against code appliances?)
    and don't reach the outlets individually. Got to be real careful with
    these cords since they are "temporary" and don't get as much attention
    as something more permanent.
    
    Another interesting thing that they did in our house was they split all
    the outlets so that the bottom plug is switched at the doorways to the
    room and the top one isn't. This made it very nice for table lamps in
    the rooms.

	Odd, the code mandates an outlet every 12 feet so that no point is more
than 6 feet from an outlet and then mandates appliance cord lengths of 6 feet.
There is a problem with this: if the appliance is, say, a lamp on a dresser
that is above the height of the outlet and is placed in between two outlets,
the 6 foot cord will reach neither one.  They probably should have mandated
8 foot cords to give reasonable amounts of vertical positioning flexibility
and still maintain the notion that it must reach an outlet without needing
an extension cord.

								-c

    
    
    	re the past few: 
    
    		Keep in mind that the 12 foot rule is a MAXIMUM distance
    	It does not prevent you/builder from putting outlets every 3
    	2 or 1 foot if you desire. I'd be leary of buying a new house
    	where the builder was so cheap as to try and get buy with just
    	the minimum that would satisfy the code. 
    
    			...Dave 
    

re: -.62 

Definitely!! When I wire a room I put one outlet about every 6 ft, always one
under a window for those x-mas candles with short cords, and at least 2 per
wall, and if I think I know where a table or bed will go then I put one there.

Think about it, it costs $0.33 for a box and $0.50 for an outlet. so for
less than a 1$ you can add extra outlets.  its alot cheaper than running
extension cords some day.

gary

>For future reference, the NEC dictates the 6 foot length on the cords, or else 
>the appliance/lamp does not meet the code.

No, not true. UL might have this requirement, but the NEC has no "blanket" rule
as such. They do dictate minimum flexible cord length on certain built in 
appliances, such as dishwashers and garbage disposal, etc. (If wired in with 
flexible cord and plug).

Ross

>it goes from the basement to the attic.  Are there any restrictions about 
>putting wires next to the chimney?
>

What kind of chimney, metal, masonary?
If masonary, this shouldn't be a problem. However, your local electrical 
inspector might disagree. Ask him.

>     When you add an outlet by dropping the wire down from the attic, is
>the requirement to staple every 4.5' excepted?  What about in a run in the 
>basement ceiling?


On a vertical drop in old work, it is o.k. to secure at the beginning of the
drop and at the end.


>     Is a GFCI required in an outlet in an unfinished attic?

No.


Ross

    
    Does the code allow a wire to pass through a stringer for a staircase 
    on its way through the house ?  

    Sure, why not?
    
    (It has to adhere to the same guidelines for passing through any
    other framing - can't weaken the strength by too big a hole or too
    close to a bearing edge - can't be subject to being nailed into,
    etc)
    

    Is this a dumb question?... I thought it was illegal to do electrical
    wiring unless you were licensed.  Is this not true (in Massachusetts)?
    
    

    According to my town, you can do any work you want on your own dwelling
    as long as you take out a permit and have an inspection done. 

    re .68:

    My understanding is:

    It's illegal to do your own electrical work in Boston, and perhaps
    other municipalities.  It's illegal to do your own plumbing anywhere
    in Massachusetts.

    I'm surprised its not illegal to BREATHE in Mass. These type of
    laws serve only one purpose, to fatten the pockets of the plumbing
    and electrical unions. Doing your own work and having it inspected
    is all that should be necessary, unless the inspector is a lacky
    for the above mentioned unions!                            
    
    Eric

>    Re: Plumbing work
>    
>    Doing your own work and having it inspected is all that should be
>    necessary, unless the inspector is a lacky for the above mentioned
>    unions! 

    Just try and do this in Mass! Remember that guy from Uxbridge that
    did this a year or two ago.... they took him to court. Of course
    he violated a few of the code rules which doesn't help the DIYer
    case.
    
    In Mass., A DIY electrical work permit and inspection MAY BE permitted
    by the local town/city building department. Some towns do, some DON'T. 

    For Plumbing, a DIY CANNOT get a permit and the resulting inspection.
    This is a Mass. rule not to be overruled by any local town (as far
    as I know).

    Charly... Off to Spag's to get some plumbing supplies :-)

    
    In Mass., if it isn't taxed it's illegal!
    
    The still of the night is frequently shattered with...
    
    

       
    Plumbing Police.  Open up in there!  Come out with your wrench up...

    
    

    I should have specified that doing your own plumbing and have it
    inspected WHERE THIS IS LEGAL. I'm still of a mind set that people
    have some freedom (I live in NH and not in a Socialist State).
    
    Eric

    Okay, I get it...
    
    now, does anyone know if FITCHBURG laws allow a DIYer to do their
    own electrical work (with work permit & inspection)?
    
    Thx,
    
    Deb
                                      

      They do allow you to do your own in Fitchberg. i am doing my new
    house there.
    		Wayne

    Can someone tell me if the city of Worcester, MA allows a homeowner to
    do his own electrical work with the appropriate permit and inspection?

    Thanks, Kevin.

    	This seemed to be the logical place to enter this. If not please
    move to the appropriate location MR. Mod.
    
  
    	I don't know if any of you are aware of the new law that will go into
    effect (01-MARCH-1990 I believe). This law requires that electricians
    carry liability insurance. To enforce this the inspector will require a
    certificate of insurance *before* issuing a permit. The law reads as
    follows. 
    
    
    Copied without permission
    
    
    	"Be it enacted by the Senate and house of Representatives in
    General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:
    
    	
    	Section 8 of chapter 141 of the General Laws, as appearing in
    the 1988 Official Edition, is hear by amended by adding the following
    paragraph:
    
    
    	Notwithstanding the provisions of any general or special law
    to the contrary, no permit for the performance of electrical work
    pursuant to chapters 141 and 143 shall be issued by any city, or
    town unless the licensee provides proof of liability insurance,
    including completed operation coverage, which has been issued by
    an insurance company licensed to do business in the commonwealth,
    or a bond, or other type of indemnity against liability providing
    substantially equivalent coverage. In lieu of said insurance
    requirement the the permit issuing authority shall accept the signature
    of the owner or his agent on the uniform application for a permit
    for work to be performed by electricians."
    
    
    	Basically this requires that electricians carry liability insurance.
    The owner of the property *can* waive the requirement. I asked one
    of the areas inspectors and he said that it was his, and other area
    inspectors' opinion that to waive the insurance requirement may be
    a poor decision. The reason is that the owner's homeowners policy may
    not cover work done under the waive. This could put the homeowner
    at a tremendous amount of risk!!! It is obvious who was behind the
    law in the first place, the insurance companies. To protect yourself
    the best thing one can do is ask their insurance carrier if they
    will be covered if electrical work is done without the required
    insurance. If they say that it is I would suggest getting it in
    righting. This should be kept in your file with a copy of the waive
    that you had signed. This way you will have it if any thing does
    happen.
    
    
    	The bottom line here is YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. If an electrician
    is serious about his/her work, they will have the required insurance.
    I would be very skeptical about an electrician that didn't conform
    to the law (what other corners is he/she cutting?) I would suggest
    that before an electrical contractor is hired one should ask to
    see a certificate of insurance. He/She should have it with them
    (at least a copy), as they will need it to pull a permit.

    
    			Cary

I am going to assume from your node name that this law is for
Massachusetts only.

			Steve

    > The bottom line here is YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
    
    I don't buy it in this case. If Joe Voltage was a qualified electrician
    before this law, he will still be a qualified electrician after. 
    
    Seems like nothing more than a strong insurance lobby to me...
    
    
    Edd

    
    It also sounds like the death knell for homeowners pulling permits in
    Mass towns that allow it.Unless you are doing enough work to justify
    the insurance cost .vs. paying an electrician.
    
    CdH
    

    RE 79  
    	
    	Yes this law is for Mass only
    
    
    RE 80  
    
    	Sure you are going to have some (many??) electricians out
    there that have no idea what they are doing (this is true in every
    profession). But at least this will stop (or limit) the *midnight*
    electricians. Some of these guys are good. Some are not. The way
    I look at it is, if you aren't professional about your work, then
    you should leave it up to the professionals.

    
    				Cary

    
    
    Cary,
    Could you verify the date to which that law goes on the books.
    
    ASAP!
    
    Thanks
    JD

       
   > 	Sure you are going to have some (many??) electricians out
   > there that have no idea what they are doing (this is true in every
   > profession). But at least this will stop (or limit) the *midnight*
   > electricians. Some of these guys are good. Some are not. The way
   > I look at it is, if you aren't professional about your work, then
   > you should leave it up to the professionals.

     How will this limit or stop 'midnight' electricians?
    
     This law, as I understand it, will do NOTHING to ensure I get a
     qualified electrician. The only thing I see is an increase in rates
     when the consumer gets the cost passed on to them...
    
     I still, honestly, don't see your point. If a hack buys the insurance
     is he more professional/qualified than an equally knowledgable and
     experienced tech craftsman with no insurance? 
    
     I don't want insurance. I want a quality job. This law doesn't even 
     speak to that issue.
    
    Edd
    				

Good grief.  I'm amazed at the reactions here.

My interpretation of the law is that it's designed to protect you, the
consumer.  All it says is that if you hire an electrician, the electric
inspector has to make sure the electrician is insured or otherwise
covered against liability.  The most likely form of liability is when you
need to sue the electrician for shoddy work.  It's a darn sight better than
trying to sue the electrician only to discover that the electrician has no
assets that you can seize.  

When we hired a contractor to build a garage, we inspected his insurance
certificate ourselves.  If we had been real paranoid, we would have verified
it with his insurance company.  I'm unsure about the idea of using building
inspectors for consumer protection, but otherwise this seems to be the
same basic idea.

   Gary

    Sorry folks, my intent here is not to be argumentative, but I'm
    frankly tired of laws that do nothing more than line someone else's
    pockets under the guise of 'protecting' me.
    
    ...especially when it does nothing to see that I actually *get* a quality
    job!!
    
    Edd

    RE .83
    		I was told by the inspector that it will be in effect
    for March 1, 1990. (This info may/maynot be accurate)
    
    RE .84	
    		The reason that it will stop *midnight* electrician
    is that if they want to pull a permit they are going to have to
    fork out aprx $1000. Now if one was doing work on the side, he/she
    would have to have a substantial amount of business. The bottom line
    here is, if you do less that $5000 in work/year. You would be better
    off not doing any, and try to work more overtime at your normal
    job. 
    
    		The way the insurance companies set their rates is by your
    gross sales. The starting limit is ~$28K and less. The insurance
    company also told me that they will audit someone if they feel that
    they are not reporting the proper amount of revenue (just like our
    friends at the IRS :*)).

    
    		All of this does not insure getting a quality trade
    person. There is never any guaranty that you will get a quality
    job. You can check BBB, references, word of mouth, what ever. You
    just may be *lucky* enough to get the one in a million job that
    just goes bad. When ever I am looking for any type of work done,
    I ask around, look for someone that is *high to average* in price,
    and someone that is always busy. If some one is always slow chances
    are they are too expensive for the quality they provide. People that
    DO NOT charge what *the market will bear* probably don't realize what
    they are worth (which I wonder what other poor decisions they are
    making), or they ARE charging what they are worth. 
    
    		I've have read other notes in this conference that complain 
    about the price of a job, but the job was done properly. But the
    trades man charged $120 for 1 1/2 Hrs work. This is the way it goes. 
    The average electrician should be GROSSING *at least* $50/HR. This 
    includes labor ($30-$35) and materials ($15-$20 small residential). 
    This may seem like allot of money, but this is the way it is. If
    they are professional about it. They have insurance, tools and
    equipment, taxes (they pay SS tax twice, 15%), and they still get
    burnt (not paid) occasionally. This is all in part of doing business.
    
    				CB
    

    
    Still, if Joe Homeowner can do a *** QUALITY *** job, there should be
    NO REASON why he can't pull a permit, do the work, and get it
    inspected. This insurance law is just ONE MORE ASSAULT on our freedoms
    backed by the insurance companies and the electrical workers union.
    
    CdH
    

Quoting from the excerpt of the law as entered in .78:
    
>    	"Be it enacted by the Senate and house of Representatives in
>    General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:
>    ....
>    IN LIEU OF SAID INSURANCE
>    REQUIREMENT THE THE PERMIT ISSUING AUTHORITY SHALL ACCEPT THE SIGNATURE
>    OF THE OWNER OR HIS AGENT ON THE UNIFORM APPLICATION FOR A PERMIT
>    FOR WORK TO BE PERFORMED BY ELECTRICIANS."
>    
>    
>    	Basically this requires that electricians carry liability insurance.
>    The owner of the property *CAN* waive the requirement. 

(emphasis added)

What it means is that you, the homeowner, can still hire Joe Midnight
and pay cash, and waive your right to be covered by his insurance.
However, the default is that the electrician must be insured.
This seems to put the power in the hands of the homeowner.  

As a homeowner, I like this bargaining position.  I haven't lost anything
except having to sign a waiver (should I choose to).  The benefit is that
there are more cards on the table.

- tom powers]

It's also worth noting, since so many seemed to have missed it, that
nothing in this law prevents me from doing my own work without insurance.
I'm the homeowner, I can always sign the form releasing me from having
to have insurance! 

C'mon people, try actually reading the original note before flaming about 
insurance lobbies or limitation of rights!  The one and *only* thing
this law accomplishes is to force electrians to 'fess up if they don't
have insurance.  If you don't care, that's fine with me, but I do.

Also note that the town electrical inspector is the person in town most
likely to know who really has insurance and who doesn't, without having
to call the insurance company to check it out.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    Re: .90, Larry
    
    I'm not flaming. I read what was posted. I still don't see where
    it implies that a homeowner can pull their own permit and simply waive 
    the insurance provision with their signature.
    
    This is all speculation until one of us tries it. Even then it's up to
    the inspector in your town.
    
    CdH
    

    I get really amazed when I see comments like those earlier that unless
    I am paying an outrageous fee for a job that I am get schlock work. 
    Just because a guy doesn't want to commit robbery DOES NOT mean he
    cannot do good work.  Yes, you want to look for people with good
    recommendations.  People who are usually busy.  People who you can deal
    with.  BUT NOT PEOPLE WHO ARE HIGH IN THEIR PRICE!!!!!  If a guy is
    high, and another is lower, then I will take the lower EVERY TIME.  So,
    I wish people would stop telling me that I have to pay a high price to
    get good work.  This applies to all trades.  There are other equally
    important factors involved, also.
    
    Ed..
    

re: .91

Read it again, or read the version in .89 with the section in all caps.

There's nothing at all subtle or ambiguous.  It says, in no uncertain terms,
that the homeowner's signature is acceptable in lieu of insurance.

   Gary

    
    Re: .93
    
    I've read it over and over. Larry pointed out the 'loophole' via mail
    which I hadn't seen previously.
    
    I still maintain that it remains to be seen if your inspector, who may
    have issued a homeowner a permit previously, will still be willing to
    do so after this law has passed. I think we all agree on that.
    
    CdH
    

    I like the part about the insurance company pulling an audit to see how
    much you really make, if they don't believe you. Is this something new?
    When did they get the authority, other than the ol' 'you want us to
    insure you, play by our rules' ploy? Now it's part of the law? 
    
    P@

    QUESTION:
    
    Is there anything in the Code about running Romex near or up against
    sheet metal FHA ducts?  If so - what are the rules?
    
    	-Barry-
    

    
    	Audits by insurance companies are nothing new. When a  contractor
    is carrying workmans comp. for example, the insurance company will
    generally audit the insured at year end and your insurance bill
    is then based on the gross income for the year. I can't vouch for
    corporations but I know from personal experience that is how it
    works for a sole proprietership.  
    
    	Do any of the Mass. folks in this discussion know if their
    homeowners insurance covers contractors working uninsured on their
    property, for both or either workmans comp. or liability for damage
    to the property done by the contractor while employed by the homeowner?
    
    	Just curious. I think some areas have this type of coverage,
    at least the workmans comp. part but I don't know about the liability
    coverage.
                          
    	PL.
    	
     (Former contractor that got tired of the rat race and chasing
    delinquent accounts.)

    RE .96
    	
    	The code says nothing about running nonmetallic sheathed cable
    (romex) on or against any duct work. It does state however, that
    in exposed work it (romex) "shall closely follow the surface of
    the building finish or of the running boards". It also must be protected
    by physical damage. When installed in unfinished basements "cables
    shall be either be run through bored holes in joists or on running
    boards."
    
    	I would suggest not to install romex on the duct work since it
    isn't a running board. But I don't think it would hurt if it was installed  
    ~ 1" away from the duct. Was your main concern about the heat that
    the duct will give off?? If so standard romex is rated at 60 C which
    is = to 140 F. I doubt that FHA duct work gets that hot.
    
    		Cary

    re. .98
    
    My plan was not to run it on or against the ductwork.
    
    But, there are some places where the Romex will either be in the same
    "channel" (between joists) as the ductwork or cross the ductwork.  I
    have tried to keep that to a minimum.
    
    Concerns were targeted at inspection - failure due to temperature
    considerations or safety (potential for 'short' to ducting).  Just
    being my usual conservtive, perfectionistic self.
    
    Thanks for the response.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    When using plastic boxes for wiring outlets and the like, what holds
    the wire in the box?  On metal boxes, there are built in clamps.  Is
    something like that required for plastic boxes?  Or do you just staple
    to the stud right above the box?
    
    Ed..
    

    I don't have the code here, but our building inspector wanted
    the wiring "stapled" 8" from the box.  This was to secure the
    wire before entering the box.
    
    Also, some plastic boxes have tension tabs built in; they allow
    you to push the wire in, but it pinches on the wire if you try to
    pull it back out.  However, even with these boxes, the inspector
    wanted the wiring stapled 8" from the box.

  Somebody else asked a while back about installing switches which don't
  have grounding screws in plastic boxes. I don't remember that the
  question was finally settled.

  I don't recall seeing anything about it in my Code book (1987). One
  switch I bought recently (a dimmer which didn't have a grounding
  screw) simply recommended bringing the ground wire around to the front
  of the switch (where it would contact the metal mounting frame of the
  switch) and tightening the mounting screw over it. That's what I've
  been doing, but it sure doesn't seem as good as a real grounding
  screw. Is this what you're supposed to do? Does anyone know if
  switches without grounding screws are eventually supposed to
  disappear? Or are they going to be out-of-code for use in a plastic
  box?

  I sure hate them plastic boxes!

    I think the code does state 8" within entry to a plasic box when a
    clamp is not present.  If there is a clamp in the box, then the normal
    rules for securing wires apply.
    
    Clamps are available for most plastic boxes over a single gang size. 
    If I do not have the clamps available I will use a staple as close as
    possible but NEVER 8" away, thats just too far for me.  At 8" away the
    Romex has ALOT of play in it.
    
    bjm

    The code does say (section 370-7c) that the cable must be attached
    to the box, with the following exception:
    
    	Where nonmetallic-sheathed cable is used with boxes no larger
    	than a nominal size 2-1/4 inch by 4 inch mounted in walls and
    	where the cable is fastened within 8 inches (203mm) of the box
    	measured along the sheath and where the sheath extends into
    	the box no less than 1/4 inch (6.35mm), securing the cable to
    	the box shall not be required.
    
    I guess this means that single-gang boxes don't need clamps, but
    all others do.  What do the clamps for non-metallic boxes look
    like?  I've never seen one.
    
    				Steve

    RE .104
    	Trying to have Romex (aka nonmetallic-sheathed cable) stay in the
    box when the code allows a minimum of 1/4" of the sheathing in the box
    is a joke.
    
    	The clamps for the 2+ gang plastic boxes that I have seen/used are
    metal, attached with a single screw.  They are very similar to a Romex
    clamp in an old work box only smaller and without the little dimple. 
    Some brands of plastic boxes come with the clamps in them, others you
    can ask for them at the supply counter (usually a bag of 100).
    I use them because it makes forming the wires inside the box easier. 
    I like to leave a nice neat box (in case I have to come back and work 
    on it again).
    
    bjm

    Do the "tension tabs" on 2+ gang plastic boxes count as clamps
    with regards to the code requirements.  The tabs I speak of look
    like this:
    			---\/----\/---
                        |            |
                        |            |
                        |            |
                        |            |  
                        |            | 
                        ---/\----/\---

Re: .106

I consider those tabs to be a joke, and wouldn't treat them as clamps.

			Steve

    re: .-1
    
    Strange as it may sound, the "tabs" refered top in .-2 do comply with
    code.  Most inspectors will, however, require that the romes be stapled
    within the 8" as noted earlier.
    
    Dan

    re .98:
    
      Try measuring your FHA vents sometime. Mine reach 160F within about 8
    feet of the basement, and regularly hit 140-150F at the vent! I'd keep
    romex a couple inches away...
    

    
    	I'm in the finishing stages of planning the addition of track
    lights in our livingroom.  Do I have to (as a New Hampshire person) get
    a permit and/or inspection for this project?
    
    	Second question -- are there any code restrictions on running romex
    (2/12) in an exterior wall that is insulated with faced pink fiberglas?
    The romex would be between the sheetrock and facing.  (The alternative
    is running the romex up an inside wall in a cavity that includes a
    heating duct and trying to do this above the furnace.  I think pulling
    wire up the insulation will be easier...)
    
    	Thanks!
    
    							-craig

>    	I'm in the finishing stages of planning the addition of track
>    lights in our livingroom.  Do I have to (as a New Hampshire person) get
>    a permit and/or inspection for this project?
      
      The  definitive  answer  is to be had by calling -- anonymously if
      you wish -- your local building inspector.  If all you're doing is
      adding  some  lights I doubt that a permit/inspection is required.
      Of course, as you apparently realize, you must still follow code.
    
>    	Second question -- are there any code restrictions on running romex
>    (2/12) in an exterior wall that is insulated with faced pink fiberglass?
>    The romex would be between the sheetrock and facing. 
      
      To the best of my knowledge there is no restriction to running the
      cable in an insulated wall cavity.  I do think that the cable must
      either  be  a certain minimum of distance from the wall surface or
      must be protected against any nails or screws that are driven into
      the  wall  for  pictures, etc.  
      
      As  a practical matter you may find that fishing the cable through
      the fiberglass is not easy.  If you can find a non-insulated wall,
      interior or not, it may be a lot easier to get the wire in place.

    
    	Thanks, Charlie.  Perhaps I'll revisit the idea of running the
    romex in the cavity with the heating duct.  I'll have to make sure to
    keep the romex away from the duct, however, since that area is within 5
    feet of the furnace and will be quite hot!
    
    							-craig

    I'll bet you find that legally you have to get a permit.   In practice
    hardly anyone does for minor jobs.

    I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that you HAVE to have insulation
    or 'some type' of fire barrier between anything flammable and the
    wires in the wall.  Again, check with the building inspector!

    
    
    	Hi,
    		It is perfectly OK to run the wires the way you mentioned
    in the base note, in the wall with the insulation. But I have to
    agree with the other reply that it may be more difficult to fish
    the insulated wall that the interior wall.
    
    	If you do fish the interior wall, just be sure not to chafe
    the wire on the ductwork in the wall as you are pulling it through.
    	
    	As for the temperature in the area, in most cases the ambient
    temperature 5 feet away from any normal houshold furnace/boiler
    should not be even as hot as the attic space in the house, which contains
    its fair share of wiring if the house is fairly new. Of course I
    have not seen your particular install, but I would feel safe with the
    wire being 5 feet from the furnace/boiler as long as the furnace/boiler
    was a typical unit for households.
    	I know that the "NEC" has some rules pertaining to romex run in areas
    of high ambient temperatures and what to about derating the wire
    ampacity, but I don't have the book in front of me to look it up.
    	If you would like more on this subject, just add another reply and
     I am sure that either myself or any of the other electricians that
    that follow this notefile can get you an answer from the book.
    
    	I hope I have helped a little and good luck with your project!
    
    PL

    
               re reply .115 
    
    	Clarification on heat 5 feet from furnace; I mean the air
    temperature outside the ductwork not the temperature internal to
    the ductwork which might be as high as 165F or so that close to
    the furnace.
    
    PL

    
    	Re: .114 and .115
    
    	Yes, I was talking about the temperature inside the duct.  The
    ambiant temperature outside of the ductwork is at a reasonable level.
    
    	Re: all the replies
    
    	Thanks for all of your inputs.  I've decided against running the
    wire up the outside wall.  The reason for this idea was the headache of
    drilling up into the inside-wall cavity right around the furnance --
    its just not an easy place to drill at.  However, I picked up a long
    drill bit (3/4 inch diameter on the end of an 18 inch rod!) that will
    let me drill down to the basement if I cut a little hole in the
    sheetrock by the floor.  Much easier to deal with!  I'll cut a couple
    of other access places in the sheetrock so that the romex will be
    stapled to the 2x4 in enough places that I know it won't be touching
    the ductwork.
    
    	I did call the building inspector's office.  (Anonymously ;-)  They
    said that I did need a permit and an inspection for this project.  For
    a total permit cost of $25, I think the inspection will be cheap
    insurance since this is my first project involving such wiring.  So
    I'm going to go the legitimate route and feed the local bureacracy.
    Keep those suggestions coming, however, for I'd rather correct mistakes
    now instead of after the building inspector shows up.
    
    							-craig

    	I recently had a discussion about this with a local inspector. I
    asked him if he had a problem with the well people running their
    electrical lines. He said definitely, they cannot run the conduit or
    wiring. In fact he said that I am responsible for the connection on the
    pump (usually 200' down). Typically, the inspector will let this
    situation go if the electrician doesn't mind. If fact some will only
    get involved if the electrician complains about it (it supposedly takes
    work away from us electricians, I would rather not get involved in the
    well at all, except for the control box and pressure switch). I then
    asked him  about homeowners doing the wiring. He said that the state
    general law was changing in 1990, it didn't make the new code book. It
    used to state,

    	"no person, firm,or corporation shall enter into, engage in or work
    at the business or occupation of installing wires, conduits, ... for
    the use of light, heat, power, fire warning or security systems, unless
    such person or firm be licensed by the state examiners of electricians,
    with respect to security systems, such person be licensed by the
    commissioner for public safety..."

    	He said that they changed that by deleting "at the business or
    occupation". Thus, if you aren't licensed, you cannot do wiring for
    lighting, heat, and power. I would say that the inspectors that are
    letting it go now, won't when the 1993 Code comes out. Because then it
    will be in the book. And if you are going to do electrical work, you
    should be (shall be) up to date on the code. All of them. And if you
    miss something, don't worry the inspector will let you know.

    	So to answer your question. If your inspector lets you do your own
    work now, he probably won't after 1/1/93. But he really shouldn't let
    you do it now.

    	CB

    Re: .1
    Did you read the law,or was it stated to you by the local person?
    
    Marc H.

    Questions of legality aside, a few answers to questions in .0:
    
    A permit is required before work begins.  If you want to have your
    work inspected, you need to apply for the permit before you start
    work, otherwise you run the risk of having to pay a fine and/or
    get the inspector ticked off at you because you started without
    having the permit.  (In Nashua the fine is 25% of the permit fee
    added to the cost of the permit.)
    
    Regarding doing your own wiring in a house you are having built,
    that is something you have to arrange with the builder.  The odds
    are his electrician will not want you doing ANY work which might
    cause a failed inspection, even if it is YOUR work.  I managed to
    convince my builder I was going to run the low-voltage stuff (TV,
    telephone, intercoms, alarms, etc.).  When he saw I was serious
    he acquiesced, probably because the NEC is not real critical of most
    low-voltage wiring.  I doubt I would have gotten the OK to do any
    line-voltage stuff.  (Although if you're clever and sneak in and no
    one notices . . .)
    
    
    I'm glad I've moved out of the People's Republic of Massachusetts.
    I was peeved enough at the "no homeowner plumbing" laws, now it
    looks like the electrician's union is trying the same stunt.
    

    [reposted from another note]

    Is it legal to do your own wiring in Mass. as long as you get it
    inspected?  Do you need to be certified in any way?  Do you need a
    permit before you start or can you just get it inspected when it's
    done?

    When a builder is putting up a house for you, could you go in and do
    some wiring even though you don't technically own the house yet?  In
    this case, the builder owns the land and the house until the closing,
    after the construction is complete.

    ---Phil

    Blessed be those living in states where the trade unions do not have a
    strangle hold on everything.
    
    Eric

This note is in reference to reply .121

I can understand why one would like to do their own thing at home 
such as plumbing and electrical work. But, not everyone has the 
skills to do these things properly. For years I have been 
puzzled why a home owner was allowed to do his own electrical 
work, work that involves both health and fire risks.

Years ago I worked as an electrician (I still have my license) 
and I came across numerous jobs that were in violation of the 
code. For example, I commonly found lamp cord used behind walls to 
power an outlet. Another common fault was mixing the terminals on 
outlets and the list go on and on.

The home owner may point out, "this is my house, and I'll do what 
I please." The problem is that he does not have perpetual 
ownership; also, there is the risk to people other than the owner.

A law that will require a licensed electrician to do electrical 
work is one that I favor because I've seen first hand the crap 
work done by so called knowledgeable owners.

    RE .120

    	The law that I quoted is chapter 141, General Laws. This is located
    in the front of the MA code book.

    	The change was verbally told to me by the inspector. If one wanted
    to push it, you could test it. When the inspector fails you, he must
    state the violation (by Art #). You can then appeal it by calling in a
    State inspector. Since I'm a Master Electrician, I can do ANY
    electrical work in this state with as many Masters or Journeymen as I
    can afford to keep on the payroll, which means that I am covered.
    However, I must put a permit for ANY work to be done.
    
    RE -1

    	I applaud you, where have you been!! Isn't it funny people that feel
    they are qualified to do their own work ask some of the STUPIDEST
    questions?? I mean I have no problem of a homeowner doing his own work,
    as long as he knows what he is doing!! When they ask if they an add
    lights off of an appliance circuit, or they go and wire the entire
    house with 12/2 RX, I mean give me a break!! If you don't know what
    your doing, get someone who does. And if you can't afford it, can you
    afford to move when your house goes up in smoke, or worse, you loose
    your life, or the life of a family member, or get knocked on your @$$
    because you did something stupid. Come on, let's be reasonable. I will
    give direction to someone who is on the right track. But when I think
    that someone doesn't know what is going on, I just ignore it. I'm not
    going to give advice to someone that is (IMO) going to get hurt, or
    hurt someone else, or isn't qualified. I'll  let someone else have that
    liability. I'm sure you've heard the term,"they know enough to be
    dangerous". Well I feel that it applies to some of the homeowners out
    there.

    	I'm sure there will be flames that follow.

    	CB

    I also would agree in principle with .-1.  However, I'd like to point
    out that while I don't have a license, I do know about the codes.  In
    the remodeling work that I have done, I have seen some work by
    "PROFESSIONALS" that is sometimes worse than that done by homeowners.
    
    For the most part, professionals are better than that, but realize that
    there are some who are just out for the money.  The dangerous person is
    he/she who doesn't know when to ask the question.
    
    Dan

    I don't see why there should be a problem with a non-licensed person
    doing electrical work in his own home IF IT IS PROPERLY INSPECTED after
    the work is completed.  Isn't that what we are paying the state/city
    inspectors for?  I realize that the current homeowner won't own his
    house forever, and that is where the inspectors should come in.  They
    are the guarantee that any work that has been done in the house is up
    to code.

    I find it disconcerting that more and more tasks are being made
    unlawful for a person to do for himself.  We don't all have time to
    become certified electricians or plumbers (or, in the future,
    carpenters?), but if we have the skill and desire to do the work and
    get it properly inspected, I don't see this as a great threat to
    society.  Get good inspectors and make them do their job well!

    ---Phil

    When I built my house in Linn County, IA, they had what I thought was a
    reasonable solution to the unknowledgable homeowner.  When you applied
    for the permit, you had to take a written test.  As I recall, it was
    about 3 pages long and covered those things that you would find in
    single family dwellings (eg what color conductor goes to the brass
    terminal on an outlet).  If you failed the test (I recall you needed
    80% correct) you didn't get the permit.  You could go home and study,
    and come back every week until you did know enough to pass.  The
    inspector said he had very few inspection problems from the people who
    passed the test.  (I had to make one correction - needed a larger box
    for a switch because of the number of conductors at one location).
    
    Anyway, I thought this was probably the most equitable solution to
    knowledge/training versus self-sufficiency.
    
    Tom

    I wish the owner(s) of the house I'm in the process of buying had gone
    through the permit/inspection process.  It's going to cost me some
    money to put things back in order.  There is a 60 amp box with 4 or 5
    feeds coming out of it.  There is mix of old copper and ceramic wiring,
    cable, etc.  An addition was put on in the form of a shed dormer.  The
    electricity to the resulting 2 bedrooms and � bath is supplied by
    splicing into one of the ceiling light fixtures.  Since this is part of
    the original house wiring, the bathroom outlets are ungrounded.  There
    were several blown 15 amp fuses near the box and all of the fuses in
    the box had been replaced with 30 amp fuses.
    
    People in here are probably right.  Requiring professionals to do
    electrical work does hurt those who know what they are doing and are
    doing the right thing.  Those people may be few and far between, thus
    the regulations.  Or it could be that the state and the insurance
    companies want to cover themselves.  It's similar to the requirement
    that all pickup trucks in MA need to be registered as commercial
    vehicles whether or not they are used commercially.  From a book
    keeping standpoint it's easier for the state to do this than track down
    businesses who illegally register company trucks as private vehicles to
    save a few bucks.

Since the issue of building codes and who should be able to do what under which
circumstances comes up periodically and always has a tendency to snowball, we
set aside a specific note for the purpose of discussing such matters.  Please
take any continuation of this discussion to note 3565.  You may want to read
some of the 210 replies that are already there before you start this up again.

Let's get this note back to the issue of helping this person with the question 
he asked.  Any further replies to this topic about the philosophical 
justifications for building codes will be deleted.

Paul

Just out of curiousity, what harm would there be in wiring a house with 12-2?
A reply made it sound like this was stupid (or unsafe?).  It seems that it would
be fine if the person wanted to use heavier wire than was maybe necessary.

Ed..

    Ed,

    	Give me one GOOD reason to wire the entire house with 20 amp
    circuits.

    	CB

    
     A good package price on 20a breakers??
    
    		Wayne

re: .131

We did the entire garage with 20 Amp.  The leads to the unfinished bedroom 
upstairs are also 20 Amp, and we'll probably finish them that way.

Why?  The garage should be obvious.  By running 20 Amp to the bedroom, we have
more options for air conditioners (though I haven't analyzed our requirements
to see if we need those options).  We'll also get less voltage drop, which,
while not crucial, is a nice feature if you have a TV and a computer and an
air conditioner and other stuff all running at once.  I don't know yet whether
we'll put a whirlpool into the bathroom, or what its requirements will be, but
it seems likely that 20A would be needed for that.

I wish the kitchen were 20A.  Mixers and microwaves can draw a lot of power.
Sure, they'll work at 15A, but 20 seems safer.  I have one short counter,
with only one outlet (all that's required) where I keep my mixer and food
processor.  It would be nice to be able to safely run them both simultaneously.

Outside outlets should also be 20A, especially if you have a preference for
electric garden tools, like I do (though we'll probably get rid of the 
electric lawn mower next year).

I think the bottom line for me is that once I've decided that I want 20A in 
many different places, it's just easier and simpler to do the whole house in
20A.  The incremental cost, as a percentage of total construction cost
(not just
total electrical cost) is not that great.

   Gary

RE: 12/2WG in your whole house:

There is another reason:  Voltage drop.  I think you lose about 4% of your
voltage in 30 feet (60 feet round trip) of 14/2, with a 10A load.  Ritchie's
little book "Wiring Simplified" has some tables to show this-- I don't
recall the exact figures.

Now, look around your house and see how many runs of 14/2 exceed 30 feet.
Most in my house do.  I don't like the lights dimming when I plug in the iron
or vacuum cleaner!  That's why I insisted that the wires to our new
addition were 12/2 to the first junction (about a 60 foot run-- the addition
is diagonally across the house from our service enterance).  The cost
was minimal.  Note that these are all 15A circuits, not 20A.

This is another reason you should limit the number of outlets you daisy-chain
together-- the total run to the last outlet could be outrageous.
                   --tom

    
    In talking about voltage drops for 20A circuits and what not...
    I figured this might be helpful to .. someone...  anyone.. everyone.
    
    ======================================================================
               ohms                ohms        load drop for 100'
wire size    per 1000'            per 100'  15A circuit  20A circuit

       1      .1264                .01264      .1896      .2528
       2      .1593                .01593     .23895      .3186
       3      .2009                .02009     .30135      .4018
       4      .2533                .02533     .37995      .5066
       5      .3195                .03195     .47925       .639
       6      .4028                .04028      .6042      .8056
       7       .508                 .0508       .762      1.016
       8      .6405                .06405     .96075      1.281
       9      .8077                .08077    1.21155     1.6154
      10      1.018                 .1018      1.527      2.036
      11      1.284                 .1284      1.926      2.568
      12      1.619                 .1619     2.4285      3.238
      13      2.042                 .2042      3.063      4.084
      14      2.575                 .2575     3.8625       5.15
      15      3.247                 .3247     4.8705      6.494
      16      4.094                 .4094      6.141      8.188
      17      5.163                 .5163     7.7445     10.326


All values are considered at approx 25�C (68�-77� F is considered room temp).
For copper wire, temperature changes per 1� C =  0.004

calculations for temp differences uses equation :

R� = R� + R�(.004*(t� - t�))

Example :   resistance of some piece of copper wire is 2 ohms. Someone puts
a lot of juice (current) at one end and heats up the wire say about 100�C.
base temp is at room temp (25�C). 

R� = 2ohms + 2ohms(.004*(125�C - 25�C))
R� = 2 + 2(.4)  or 2.8 ohms

information taken from pgs 206 - 214, BASIC ELECTRONICS, Bernard Grob, 
pub 1977, McGraw-Hill book comp.
    

re: .135:

clarification:
	"load drop" is in volts, and represents the voltage drop at
	full load for a one-way of 100'.  This would be the voltage
	drop for a normal 50' run, with a full 15 or 20 amp load.

From the tables, a quick calculation results in the following:

	A 5% voltage drop at 120V with a 10A load occurs with a
	run length (two wires) of:
		468' with  8 gauge
		295' with 10 gauge
		185' with 12 gauge
		116' with 14 gauge

	A 2% voltage drop at 120V with a 10A load occurs with a
	run length (two wires) of:
		187' with  8 gauge
		118' with 10 gauge
		 74' with 12 gauge
		 46' with 14 gauge

A 10A load is an iron, small space heater, or 8 100W bulbs.
                         --tom

RE: << Note 220.131 by WMOIS::BOUDREAU_C >>>

>   Give me one GOOD reason to wire the entire house with 20 amp circuits.
      
      Its a two-part reason:
          
          1)  You  shouldn't  go  to 15 amp circuits becasue there is no
          place in a home where there is not  a  serious  possiblity  of
          needing  20  amps.   Its  lots  more  expensive  to  add extra
          circuits later than to wire tham all at 20 amps initially.
          
          2)  You shouldn't go to more than 20 amp circuits except where
          specifically  required,  because  unlike  the   minimal   cost
          differential  between  15  and  20 amp circuits, going heavier
          than 20 amps will cost significant dollars.

>          1)  You  shouldn't  go  to 15 amp circuits becasue there is no
>          place in a home where there is not  a  serious  possiblity  of

      In Upton, MA, all lighting circuits HAVE TO be 15 amp.
     I had to replace 12-2 with 14-2 after a rough wiring inspection.

      Steve

    	OK first I'll start with the gent with the garage. I (personally)
    feed all garage circuits 20 amp rated. I do the same with Dining Room, 
    Kitchens, laundry circuits (all of which are required by the code), and
    120v air conditioner receptacles (these locations are placed by the
    home owner).

    	If one is worried about the computer taking a power "sag". Then run
    it on a separate circuit. This would be a good idea anyway. Why would
    you want your computer on a general lighting/receptacle circuit anyway,
    regardless if it is rated 20 amps or not.

    	Air conditions should be on their own 20 amp circuit (my
    professional opinion). If they are installed on a general
    lighting/appliance circuit, "The total marked rating... shall not
    exceed 50% of the rating of the circuit." a 7 amp AC unit would give a
    noticeable VD on a 15 amp circuit (even though it is legal). If it is
    on a separate circuit, "The total rated load...shall not exceed 80% of
    the rating of the circuit." So a 20 amp circuit would (and would have
    to) suffice. I'll get into 30 amp circuits later.

    	As for basement receptacles, all receptacles in unfinished
    basements must be protected by a GFCI. If the basement is unfinished,
    then there are no walls up. Thus I always provide a GFI receptacle at
    the panel on it's own 15 amp breaker. If I put it on a 20, I am
    required to supply a 20 amp GFI receptacle (I don't stock them and they
    are twice the price). This receptacle will get most of its use when the
    basement is getting finished. Then it will probably be eliminated. This
    is usually when the "work shop" is put in (somewhere). This is when one
    should supply 20 amp circuits to the work shop. They will be used and
    some what necessary (though not required, enter professional judgment).
    Out side receptacles I'll bite on the 20 amp circuit here. I have seen
    maybe 1 electric lawnmower in my life. I have never seen one being
    used, or that was going to be used. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
    Most of the outside receptacles are used for hedge trimmer, weed
    wackers, batter chargers, an occasional kero blast heater (I have done
    this more that once, you know "heating the great outdoors") Many of
    these are small loads. If one intends on running an air compressor
    outside, I would suggest that it is on its own circuit, If its not an
    "idler" it will be starting and stopping continuously, more VD.

    	As for the iron, the laundry circuit is a 20 amp homerun. Although
    the cord for the iron would be too shot to use (I don't like extension
    cords). My wife does the ironing in the kitchen, on the peninsula (20
    amp small appliance circuit). BTW is an iron a small appliance??  Most
    "big" (read expensive) houses have an ironing, laundry room. This is
    where I would provide a 20 amp circuit for the iron. Remember the iron
    is a resistive load and has  little "in rush". So if you do your
    ironing in the bedroom, I guess you've been overlooked.

    	The only things that I can think of that would be nice to have
    20amp circuits for are: Vacuum cleaners the bigger ones, hair dryers
    (these are power hogs anyway), and as stated above, irons. As for the
    portable electric space heaters, I have yet to meet one that I liked.
    Some of these are hazards when new, never mind when the cord dries out
    and becomes brittle. Kids love to melt their crayons, and other things
    on them. Just an accident waiting to happen IMO. Heck, some them, the
    cords are sized small enough to produce heat on their own!! :*).

    	As for the the 30 amp circuits, the configuration for a 120v/30amp
    receptacle will not accept neither a 120v/15 or 20amp cap. Thus they
    are not usable as general receptacles.

    	Now as to why one shouldn't wire the entire house with 12/2. BTW if
    you still think that the VD caused by a vacuum or hair dryer is reason
    to wire the entire house with 12/2, that is your opinion, and I can't
    change it, nor will I try. If one wired all of the lighting, and
    general receptacles with 12/2, the size of MOST of the outlet boxes
    will probably have to be enlarged. If you are a fan of metal boxes (you
    a few) you will need ALL 3 1/2' deep ones. These yield you 18 CI. this
    is OK for 2 12/2 RX's, and that's it. If you want to install a 12/3
    (you will somewhere) you will have to go to a square box w/p ring, or
    plastic. A 21 CI box will allow 2 12/3's. Now when it comes time to
    ganged switches, the largest common 2 gang box yields 17 CI/gang. The
    largest 3 gang box yields 15 CI/gang (most yield 12-14 CI/gang). One 
    would have to plan their work more carefully to stay within the code.
    There will be a similar problem on the ceiling boxes as well. This is
    required whether are on a 15 or 20 amp circuit. 2.25 CI/#12 conductor
    is required. Now is that practical, I don't think so. If an electrician
    has to chase down, or special order material that is seldom used,
    believe me it will cost more in the end. Now a homeowner could waste
    that kind of time and think nothing about it. To a contractor, time is
    money. At $30-40/HR it adds up fast. Not counting the extra expense of
    buying "not so common" materials (these can be more than double the
    cost as compared to the stuff he has sitting in stock). Now he gets to
    work with #12 everywhere, on switches (which BTW must be rated at 20
    amps) in the fixtures, all of the receptacles, ect...

    	In conclusion, If you plan on having an air conditioner, have a
    separate line brought to the desired location. If you plan on having a
    computer, run a separate line to that as well. The only things you
    can't for see is where you are going to plug in the vacuum, and maybe
    the iron. If you want the bathroom receptacles on their own circuit
    fine. But don't wire the entire house with #12. It is IMO impractical.
    I think doing the entire house with it shows ignorance. And it seems
    the inspectors think so too (at least in Upton).

    	CB

re: .139

You missed a significant point:  I don't know where I want the air conditioner,
and I certainly want the flexibility to move it around at a later date.
Likewise, I don't know where I want the computer, and I want the flexibility
to rearrange furniture, swap bedroom and office, and so on at a later date.

Our new outside line is wired through the same GFCI that protects the garage,
so there's no extra cost there.  The basement was done by the previous owner,
it's horribly underwired, and there's no GFCI (I think they weren't required
for basements before '87); if I ever get around to rewiring it, I'll base my
decisions on how much 12 gauge wire I have left.

You're right about the boxes; I had forgetten that I did spend a fair bit
of time calculating what I needed and hunting them down.  I'm surprised that
a pro would have trouble doing that (they don't generally check out Spag's,
Builder's Square, etc. for the best prices, which is where much of my
time went), but I'll take your word for it.  I forget what size boxes I
used for
the simple connections, but they're not square, they are metal, and I'm
reasonably sure I did the arithmetic correctly.

I agree that I really don't need 20A for pure lighting circuits.  For me, it
is simpler and cheaper (at least for wire) to just deal with one size, 
especially since 100' of wire goes a long way, but I can see how a pro is in
a different situation.

   Gary

re .139

I have to agree with you on time lost and extra expence of using 12/2 wire.
I had to purchase larger boxes when I wired with 12/2, which cost 3 times
what a normal size outlet box would have cost me. Just working with
12/2 wire was a pain, it's not easy to bend and connect to the outlets and
switches.

    re: 139 & GFI in unfinished basements.  I thought that washing machines
    would not work on a GFI because of their large surge.  If that is true,
    does it mean that one cannot use a washer in an unfinished basement?
    
    ed

    	Ed,

    	As with 99.44% of the rules in the NEC, this one has an exception
    (it actually has 3). The first is for a dedicated branch circuit for
    say, a freezer/refrigerator. The second is for a laundry circuit. The
    third is for a sump pump.

    	CB

    Apart from the inflexibility of 12 gauge and hence the space required
    in boxes, and the extra cost, I still don't see what is wrong with
    wiring with it, using 15A switches and fusing at 15A.
    
    I find the use of all the various amperage circuits in a typical
    domestic application very frustrating.
    
    Why are outlets and lights in a typical house mixed on the same
    circuit ?  One has NO WAY of knowing, looking at a typical outlet
    whether it is on a lighting circuit or on a dedicated 15A circuit
    or a dedicated 20Amp circuit, and hence know that you can comfortably
    plug a high current load device like an air-conditioner into it.
    
    Surely, it would make sense to separate out pure lighting from utility
    power circuits.  For outlets intended for lighting (ie controlled
    by a wall switch) there should be some sort of permanent indication
    on the outlet.  Non-controlled circuits should then be assumed to be
    utility power circuits and wired at 15Amps.  Then high power 20Amp
    circuits should also be identifiable at the outlet and there should
    be one available per room of a house for things like vacuums.  Kitchens
    should all be high power circuits.
    
    Circuits should be organised by areas of the house (I know ... they
    are supposed to be now ... but I have seen some really strange things
    like kitchen clock on upstairs bedroom lighting ... and these are
    professional installations, untouched ...)
    
    Some of the codes are so weird like these, primarily because they
    are attempting to sort out all kinds of old problems ... in essence
    what we'd look on as a mess ... without changing any basic standards
    that would really be required to do the job properly.  They have really
    only tinkered with the standard fitting design in 60 years ... like
    polarizing the plug, adding a ground prong, removing the T shaped
    connector on outlets.  Britain on the other hand went through 3
    major plug / outlet design changes in that time to come up with
    acceptable standards.
    
    Of course one of the major problems we have is that because we only
    use 120V, the requirement for high current rating circuits increased
    as domestic demand for electricity increased.  If we were using 240V
    instead, a typical 15Amp appliance would be drawing 7.5 Amps and
    14 Gauge wire would have PLENTY of reserve.
    
    Stuart

    When I did my addition,I wired it in by a very simple design. All lighting
    is 15 amp. All wall sockets are 20 amp.
    
    
    Why make it complicated?
    
    Marc H.   

What is the maximium current for a 15 AMP line?  I have two
air conditioners on the same line and the current adds up
to 14 amps.

Does the code have a recommended number?  Personally, I 
would have put in a 20 amp line myself.

Gim

80% = 15 x .8 = 12 amps (amps not current)

> (amps not current)

	???  What are you trying to say?  Current is measured in amps.  

					Tim

    re.146
    
      The maximum current for a 15amp line is 15 amps, period. As long as
    you don't draw more than that, you can do it all day every day.
    
    				Kenny

    RE: .149
    
    Yes and no. The recommended load is 80% of the max.....12 amps.
    15 amps is the limit in confined space/home/14 gauge Cu/etc.
    
    Marc H.

    Yes. I was told that you shouldn't exceed 75% of the maximum load for
    extended periods. The 15amps should be considered "peak load" not 
    "sustained load".
    
    - Richard.

>      The maximum current for a 15amp line is 15 amps, period. As long as
>    you don't draw more than that, you can do it all day every day.

I don't think this is right.  I'm no expert, but devices containing motors
(air conditioners, refrigerators, furnace blowers) initially draw a *lot* of
power when they start up.  If I recall right, the National Electrical Code
Handbook says that circuits for such devices should not be loaded more than
60% (?) of its rating for circuits expected to contain such motors.  I think
if both air conditioner compressors were to kick on at the same time, the 15
amp circuit would certainly blow.  I know that the Code requires individual
20 amp dedicated circuits for the refrigerator and for laundry so this seems
to be in line with what I'm saying.

I strongly suggest you ask the same question in the ARNOLD::ELECTRO_HOBBY
conference.

-Mike

Technically, you can run something trivially less than 15a through a 15a 
circuit breaker "all day and night" without it tripping. If your line is 
designed to put a 15a load at 120V, you may even be able to start up
appliances and motors that have high surge current if it is of a short enough
time to NOT cause the CB to trip (which is one of the very good reasons to use
CB instead of fuses).  You may even be able to do so  during a brown out, but
don't bet on it. 

Wiring codes recommend designing wiring layouts to preclude a homeowner from
having annoying CB trips for other than "real" problems.  So you put
refrigerators, large air conditioners, furnace blowers, shop tools, etc on
seperate lines, larger wire gage, larger CB.  You put lights on different
circuits, with different CB ratings, than outlets. 

So journey down to your local City Hall Building dept and pick up a copy of 
the wiring code.  It will be a more definitive answer than WE can provide.

Dave

    
    re .153 and CB over fuses
    
    I thought the whole idea of SLO-BLO fuses was to allow short time
    high current transients.  I never had a problem of a fuse blowing
    because of a motor kicking in (unless the circuit was already
    overloaded in which case the CB would blow also).  I'm not trying
    to start a fight about fuses over CB's but if I am missing
    something here I would appreciate someone setting me straight.
    
    I like CB's over fuses just for the convenience but is there a
    technical reason why CB's are better than fuses?
    
    Phil
    

    
     CBs are incredibly more convenient than fuses, but fuses are far more
    reliable. (Granted, its still rare a CB doesn't work right)
    
      I *have* had a problem with a fuse blowing when turning on a motor.
    Going to a better type (slow blow) solved the problem permanently.
    
    				Kenny

    
    
    Seeing you brought it up.... I had a fuse box take a lightning
    hit thur a fan circurt.  Took the main power down for about 30
    seconds.  Then it came back up.  I had check the box and notice
    the blown fuse.....uncrewed it and walk back into the building
    and notice the fans still going...!!???   Fans on?  Fuse in hand!!!
    Seems the contacts in the box had made their own path.  Needless
    to say there was a small flame and I pull the Mains after that..
    
    Would a CB have taken that or blown out of the box???
    
    JD

>    I like CB's over fuses just for the convenience but is there a
>    technical reason why CB's are better than fuses?


	Yes, It prevents fires.......


	How you say? When the fuse burns out it cost money for a new
one; either severl cents or just one penny. The one penny route is
the reason for the fires.....

	Fuses allow you stick a penny behind then to replace the connection.

				Bill

Are circuit breakers magnetic or bi-metal in design?

The reason I asked is I'm interested in the trip current
characteristic as a function of temperature.

Gim

    re.-1

    	Circuit breakers have both magnetic and thermal trips. 
    Magnetic - for fault current (short circuits) 
    Thermal  - for over current protection (20 amps on a 15 amp circuit)

    re.-few

    	Circuit breakers VS fuses

    	Depending on the application, fuses can be better than circuit
    breakers. Very seldom do fuses fail (don't open). Remember, circuit
    breakers are mechanical devises. they have to mechanically move, and
    can be mechanically bound. Fuses are weak links, the metal heats up and
    melts. Although they are getting better, some breakers DO NOT trip.
    Manufacturing has solved some of this problem by testing them before
    they are shipped. Less than ten years ago, most CB manufacturers did
    not trip the units first (Westinghouse and Square D did). Upon a fault
    condition (short circuit) some breakers will not trip (a fuse in this
    case will always trip, as it is a week link). Most (not all) breakers
    will trip on over current. Although, not completely accurate, I've seen
    20-25 amps on 15 amp circuits before. However, in industrial
    applications with non solid state trip devices, CB's will trip at ~80%
    of rated current. In the same instance, a fuse may "burn" when the
    current approaches 100%. I have never seen a fuse not open on a fault,
    or extended overcurrent. 

    	The biggest problem with fuses, is they are prone to nuisance
    tripping (motor start up, lose fuse holders, ect...). The fuse industry
    is more diversified than the breaker industry. In current limiting, and
    motor feeds, they are tough to beat. However, it is more expensive to
    use the "proper" fuses for the application, and one must inventory,
    spares of all types in use. 

    	In household, and small commercial and industrial applications, the
    breakers provide a better overall performance VS cost and convenience
    factor.

    	In equipment, and industrial service protection, and current
    limiting, fuses can act faster, and proved better protection. This is
    going to cost more. Much more.

    re "15 amps on a 15 amp circuit"

    	I would not recommend this. The more load that is put on a line,
    the more resistance one will encounter, thus producing more heat. Heat
    at the connections (probably the weakest point in the circuit) may make
    the connection looser. It will expand, when it cools, it will contract.
    Now the connection is looser than it was before. Eventually it will
    fail. Since there are probably 2-16 connections on a typical household
    circuit, when it does fail, you may have to search for it. Especially
    if the devices are "back wired" (that's another soap box). The bottom
    line, do as the code says, use your head. Don't overload the circuit.
    it may be your house you save.

    To get back to the question a few replies back, about how much current
    can be put through a 15A circuit, the NEC says that DEDICATED CIRCUITS
    (e.g. motors and heaters) may not use more than 80% of the max current 
    (that's 80%, not 75%).  Alternately, the circuit must be rated for at
    least 125% of the current of the fixed load (this is the same as the
    80% rule above, since 1/80% = 125%).
    
    There is no NEC rule that I've ever found about how many plugs a 
    homeowner is allowed to plug into a 15A circuit, or even a rule about 
    how many outlets a 15A circuit may have -- though there is a rule about 
    the number of different locations at which there can be outlets.  I 
    think it's 5 locations for a 15A circuit.  
    
    Therefore, plugging in two 7A AC's to one 15A circuit is not, so
    far as I can tell, a violation of code.  On the other hand, it's
    beyond the 80% safety limits, and if the AC's were hard wired, it
    would be a code violation.  Personally, I'd try to put the two
    ACs on different circuits if I could.  Being safe means not trying 
    to push the limits.
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

    
    
    Larry,
    I think there is a circuit limit somewhere in the book.  
    (Disclaimer!!) Dont quote me, but I thinks its 8/20A & 5/15A.
    Neeeeeed a little conformation on this one folks...
    
    JD

	There is no limit on the number of outlets per circuit for 
	appliance branch circuits or for general lighting branch circuits in a 
	home. There are limits for commercial and industrial applications.
	(at least not in the NEC. Local codes may modify this)

	Keep in mind this is the minimum required....it'll work and it's 
	legal but it's not very practical. Most electricians have adopted their
	own rule of thumb and that is to not put more than X number of outlets
	on a circuit. This results in more circuits than required which is a
	little more practical.  

	You arrive at the number of circuits this way:

	3 watts per square foot for general lighting and outlets.
		For example: 
		2000 sq feet * 3 watts = 6000 watts
		6000 watts/ 1800 watts  = 3.33333 15 amp circuits 
	
	(yeah I know I should probably say Volt Amps instead of watts...)



	2 - 20 amp appliance circuits (kitchen and dining rm)The kitchen must
	           have 2 circuits in it, but it can share them with the dining 
		   rm for instance.

	1 - washing machine dedicated circuit.

	Everything else is figured according to the load on the appliance and
	some of the other rules mentioned in previous notes for loading a branch
	circuit.

My electrical inspector said a good rule of thumb was 1.5 amps per outlet

    < There is no limit on the number of outlets per circuit for
    < appliance branch circuits or for general lighting branch circuits in
    < a home......
    
    I beg to differ with this.
    
    I'm in the process of finishing off my upstairs (new construction) &
    I've talked with the electrician on site (I'm in a new development) and
    have spoken with the town's electrical & cheif building inspectors (I
    pulled my own electrical permit) and all have told me there are
    limits to the number of FIXTURES (this includes lights - hard wired,
    outlets, fans etc.) allowed on a single circuit; this also depends on
    what kind of room your talking about.
    
    They said for bedrooms your allow 11 fixtures per 15A circuit with a
    potential max of 13 or 14 (they allow the extra because they don't
    think anyone can use that many outlets, lights & etc all at the same
    time, so the drain on the circuit won't be that bad). I'm not too sure
    of the # for living & dining rooms. Kitchens are different too. I think
    your allowed the same # of fixtures however, electric stove and refrig
    must be own their own circuits, separately. All outlets around the
    kitchen sink, for so many feet away MUST be GFCI & there MUST be, I
    beleive, 6 outlets at counter level (for ave. size counter
    top/kitchen).
    
    I'm not sure if this is what the national code dictates or is this just
    a state/local code. I live in Salem, N.H. I would difinately say your
    best bet would be to call or visit your local building dept & talk with
    either the cheif building or electric inspectors.
    
    Alan
    ps - usual disclosures applied.
    

Re: .164

The rule for kitchen counter outlets is that no spot on the counter shall be
more than 2 feet from an outlet.  Outlets within 6 feet of a sink must be
GFCI protected.  Also, you are required to have at least two "small appliance"
(countertop) circuits.

				Steve

    Steve
    
    Thanks. I wasn't sure of the footage requirement for countertops & the
    distance from the kitchen sink. I also didn't know about the small
    appliance circuit, good to know.
    
    Alan
    

Also, if a counter is interrupted by something like a stove, the sections of
counter on either side are considered independent for the 2-foot rule (no
cords stretching across the stove!)

			Steve

    re .164
    
    	What you are seeing is a local requirment. The local inspectors can
    certainly require more than the code does and often do. But that does
    not mean that what you saw is the rule everywhere. Sounds like fun
    trade to be in eh? We electricians get trained on
    the code that the particular licensing body endorses (NEC for NH Mass
    code for mass) The towns then get to add or delete whatever they want to.
    What we have to do is find out what if any changes the local inspector
    wants before we do the work. This means a special trip to the town
    hall in a town we have not yet worked in. (by the way this trip adds to t
    he cost of doing business ;'))
    
    	If you want to see where I'm coming from check out NEC Article 220
    paragraphs 220-1 to 220-10 and pay close attention to the table
    220-3(b) and the footnotes & fine print for Dwelling units. If you can
    get your hands on an NEC Handbook it would help. It has a lot of great
    examples and interpretations of the intent of the code. Most inspectors
    use them too.
    
    If this stuff really piques your interest you might want to check out
    a code course. Either the full blown semester versions for apprentices
    or the 15 hour code update courses we electricians have to take in every
    3 years to continue renewing our licences. (New code book every 3 yrs.) 
    Vov Tech in Nashua NH has them on a regular basis. 
    
    (I apologize for the mess this editor might be making and I miss fixing)
    
    Later
    
    Paul
    
	

    re .168:  "The towns then get to add or delete whatever they want to."
    
    Do you mean this literally -- Mass state law does not require a town
    to enforce the code as a minimum standard?  
    
    The reason I want to know is because our town wiring inspector stated
    in his last annual report that he would no longer issue permits for
    homeowners to do their own wiring -- not even for low voltage wiring!
    
    Now, I understood that a requirement for trained electricians to do
    all wiring was snuck into the latest NEC, so I thought that our
    inspector made this ruling because he had to.  It would be nice to
    know whether he (or the town) really does have authority to modify
    that ruling.  It seems especially ludicrous for low voltage wiring.
    
    	Thanks,
    	Larry
    
    PS -- Personally, I wouldn't mind at all if reasonable restrictions 
    were placed on homeowners doing their own wiring -- e.g. a higher fee 
    to cover a more thorough inspection, or even some sort of training 
    requirement.  
    

    You need a permit/inspection for low voltage? 
    
    Yikes, I had no idea I needed a permit for something I plug in.
    
    Edd

    re a couple back
    
    	Not absolutely positive about Mass. and how the state and towns 
    interact on code but I suspect that it's similar to NH which goes
    something like this:
    
    	The state electricians board adopts a "code standard" as the
    minimum requirement. NEC in NH's case. Town inspectors can then
    append  "local" requirements on top of the states adopted code. Of
    course what ever they adopt is supposed to be better than the minimum
    set by the state but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. In NH
    if you have a dispute with an inspector you can call the state
    inspector in for a ruling. I presume the samer applies for Mass.
    
    	I make no claim to be an expert on legality of these "local"
    adaptations I only speak from my experiences. I continually run into
    odd-ball requirements in various towns and proceed to comply with what
    ever it is they want. I've never really run into anything mandated at
    the local level that was out and out dangerous. 
    
    My opinion is if they can't come up with the "local" code rule in a 
    written/documented manner it's probably not enforceable but I've never 
    bothered to fight one.    
    
	As for the licensing rules....I'm not yet up to speed on the 
    93 NEC release as it's not necessarily being enforced yet, so I can't
    say for sure if the licensing issue is in it or not but I doubt it is 
    though. The Mass code may deal with it but it's doubtful also. I do know 
    that when I renewed my Mass license last year there was a flyer with it that
    listed all of the changes coming up as far as licensing goes and yes
    they have definitly gone to low voltage licensing for alarm systems
    etc and the rules seemed pretty strict. As for homeowners pulling permits 
    I believe it is still up to the individual towns. Call the Mass board of 
    electricians for specifics on licensing and permitting. In NH the towns 
    control permitting. Last count was 3 towns that didn't allow a homeowner to
    pull a permit for their own home. (I checked about 3 months ago)All
    other towns allowed homeowners to pull permits.
    
    My opinion, it's your house you should be able to work on it all you
    want as long as you pass the same inspection criteria that I have to.
    I think the rules that leave the homeowner out only invite illegally
    and uninspected (maybe dangerous) work to be done. 
    
    
     If you really want to have fun, try working somewhere that the
    licensing changes from county to county, town to town, borough to
    borough. At least in New England your license is good across the entire 
    state you are licensed in.
    
    
    Enough of this longwindedness....:')
    
    later
    
    Paul
    

    The Canadian version of the NEC (for the most part, they are
    amazingly similar ... except for grounding practices !) puts a
    limit of 10 outlets on a 15 Amp circuit ... This includes
    lights and duplex outlets (ie a duplex outlet is considered a single
    outlet).  The idea being to avoid blacking out too much of a house
    in the event of one circuit tripping.
    
    

What is the maximum number of piggy fuses in the circuit
breaker panel?  Physically you can double up everything.
Obviously that probably is NOT recommended.

Gim

It depends on the manufacturer of the panel as to how many it will take.
Call the manuf. of your panel with the model # and ask them or have them send
a copy of the paperwork to you.

    I recall that there is an absolute maximum of 42 circuits in any
    one panelbox.
    
    				Steve

Do town electrical inspectors vary on what they expect for
a final inspection?

They want the devices wired, and in the boxes... but do they
want the plates on too? or do they want the plates off so that
they can easily see into the box?

Do they want the panel cover off?

Do they want ceiling fixtures in place?

Anything else?

... just want to confirm what the inspector wants for the final
inspection, and havn't been thru a final for many years.

    Re: .80
    
    Call the town inspector. Only way you will know.
    
    Marc H.

>    I recall that there is an absolute maximum of 42 circuits in any
>    one panelbox.

So that means my 40 breaker 200 amp box can't have too many piggy back 
breakers?

>    
>    Call the town inspector. Only way you will know.

okay...

since my question was does it vary from town to town, I presume
from the tone of your answer that you are saying that it
does vary. That is to say, there are no generalizations one
can make about final electrical inspections.

Typically they want everything done the way it will be when you move in. Plates,
fixtures up etc. They ususally have checked the service entrance when the
electrician called the new service in for the permanent power connection. 
If they have a concern they usually have the electrician get in touch with them
to either show them what they want to see or answer the question. If you happen
to be the electrician just try and be there when the inspection occurs.
 
They may allow you to leave out a fixture or 2 if they are back-ordered or
something, but they typically make you cover the box opening with an approved
cover or canopy until the fixture is hung.

What they are typically looking for in the finish inspection are things like
outlet locations, (Especially in the kitchen) GFI's, (kitchen, baths, outdoors) 
smoke detectors, fixtures hung, lights by doors switched outlets or switched
lights of some sort in every room, no gaping holes around outlet boxes/plates,
polarity test a few outlets etc.....I've yet to have an inspector open an outlet
or switch box on a job I've done in the past 15 years.

I agree with the previous reply, call the inspector and ask. They are usually
more than willing to cooperate and allow temporary exceptions if they know whats
happening up front.  

Good luck!

Paul

Re: .176

Correct.

	Steve

The code doesn't directly address the piggy back's ,duplex or whatever you call
them. 

Steve is correct 42 is max as far as the code is concerned. So if you have a
panel with 40 in it now and want to add a couple of these breakers you can't
exceed 42 circuits total.  

The other problem you run into is UL listing. If the panel isn't UL listed to
accept piggy backs you put can't put them in and be compliant with code
regardless of how how may circuits you have. This is covered in "article 110-3b
installation and use" which discusses following directions supplied by the
manufacturer that accompany the listing of the product.

You have to check with the manufacturer for the specs on whether the particular
panel in question is listed for use with piggy backs and which piggy back
breakers are also OK to use. The manufacturer is required by the code and
probably the UL listing to make the information concerning the panel available
and it usually can be found on a tag on the cover or inside the panel,
permanently glued to the enclosure. That tag should list the breaker models you
can use with the panel, the panel model type and the manufacturer. 

A word of caution, there have been many buy outs and takeovers in the electrical
equipment industry these past few years and the tags in your panel may be out of
date. I suggest calling the manufacturer if the panel is more than 3-4 years
old. 


Later,
Paul

    
    Dont be surprised to find on the wants 2 inspections.  One with
    all the ruff wiring.  No fitures or covers.  and a finish one
    where he checks the GFI's and ect,ect.....
    
    JD

    I've just had a out-of-town electrician to update the electrical
    service for my 2-family house. This includes updating to 200Amp
    service (100Amp for each family), replaced old fuse boxes with new
    CB panels, moved the two meters from basement to outside. When the 
    inspector came, he said the meter box ( the the feed??) are installed 
    too low and wouldn't pass the inspection. Does the NEC code has such
    requirements ? 
    
    

    Regardless of code, if the inspector won't accept it, it fails.
    
    I'm sure the code does have those requirements, to keep the boxes out
    of the snow. I don't know what it is. Time to call the electricial to
    fix it - you paid him to know what he was doing, so he should make it
    right.
    
    His opinion may vary.... good luck.
    
    Chris
    

    how high is it mounted?
    
    Richter ('90 ed) says "5 to 6 feet above ground", but doesn't mention a
    code requirement. Local codes may have other requirements, and the
    inspector always wins.
    
    ...tom

as .87 states - the local inspector always wins (unless it is totally against
NEC)

I think in the Boston area - it was 4' above grade.

Call the person back and have them fix it to keep the inspector happy.  Its not
going to be fun work - there is a reason the biggest wires go in first !

Brian J.

    re: last few
    That means the entrance cable will come into the living room at about 3ft
    from the floor then go to the basement thru the livingroom floor. This is
    gonna be ugly. The old service entrance cable was only about a foot above 
    the ground at the point where it came into the basement. The side of
    the basement where the service cabe enter is below grade. I've had 5 
    licienced electricians/contractors to bid for the jobs. Why not even a 
    single one pointed out this problem. If I had known about this, I would 
    give a second thought about upgrading the service. Is this actually the
    electrician's fault ? Can I sue the electrician for not pointing out this 
    problem ? This not only going to affect the value of the house, but also 
    going to make me feel uncomfortable everytime I see the cabe in the living
    room. I still haven't pay the last 1/3 payment to the electrician yet.
    
    Any suggestion ?
    

>     That means the entrance cable will come into the living room at about 3ft
>     from the floor then go to the basement thru the livingroom floor. This is

    The cable can still enter the house below the living room floor.

    It's the meter box that is the issue here. They want it at a safe
    and convient hight for working on, reading the meter.

    Charly

    I don't think it's any fault of the electrician.  There's no way he
    can second-guess every whim of every inspector.  
    

    re: 90
    That would be great news. I don't care how high the meters outside the
    house has to be. I'm only concern about where the entrance cable (two 
    cables, one for each apartment) comes in. Are you sure about that ?
    I just bought the 1996 NEC (paperback version) at lunch time. I'm going
    to look at that tonight. I got the impression from the electrician that 
    the inspector wants both the meters and the cables to be higher. As I 
    said in my first note, that the old cable entered the house at about a 
    foot from the ground. Obviousely, it was legal at the time the house
    was built (about 50-60 yrs ago).
    
    re: 91
    I think the electrician should be reponsible in this case if such code
    (restriction) exist. It is VERY obviouse that if the entrance cable has 
    to be a few feet above grade, it will goes into my living room. As a
    licienced electrician, I expect he/she has this knowledge.
    
     

	Why can't the cable run down inside the wall?

	The wire comes down the outside of the house from the
attachment point.  (It's the power company's responsibility to
this point.)  It dives into the top of the meter box.  From there,
it can go out the back of the meter box, into the wall cavity, and
down in there to the basement, where it comes out into the back or
top of the breaker box.  

	Alternatively, as a previous note mentions, the cable leaves
the bottom of the meter box, continues down the outside of the house,
then dives through the wall to meet up with the breaker box.  I think
this is how my house is done.

	If your electrical contractor knew what he was doing, he should
have known any local special requirements.  Didn't he pull the permit
and arrange the inspections himself anyway?  

    It may not be a specific code restriction.  It may be the 
    "interpretation" of the code by the particular inspector.
    No way an electrician can anticipate all of those cases,
    especially if every other inspector the electrician has 
    ever dealt with has passed such an installation.
    
    (Of course, if it *is* a specific code restriction then yes, 
    the electrican ought to fix it.)
    

The way I recall it worked in the south shore area was the power company told 
the inspectors in the towns that they serviced what height they wanted the
meters to be at.  Even though you own the meter socket - THEY own the meter.

There must be something in the NEC about height - I would not want mine so low
that a riding mower could hit it or a dog could "mark" it etc...

bjm

    I suspect that the service entrance cable (meter->box) will have to be
    in conduit if it gets too close to ground level.. which is still a
    whole lot easier that trying to snake a fat SE cable through the wall.. 
    
    Methinks you'll want to have the electrician talk the proposed layout
    over with the inspector before he fixes it.. it sounds like the two
    have never "met" before..
    
    ...tom

    The electrician who is doing my service entrance told me that Mass
    Electric has rules about how high the meter should be above grade.
    So as a previous noter indicated, that may be where the inspector's
    requirement is coming from, rather than the NEC.  --  Vince
    

Wow, this got alot of interest.

The NEC doesn't specify the height of the meter box directly, the specification
of the meter and box type do.  Here is where the local Electric Company comes
in, they provide the meter;  That means they get to specify some rules.  Of
course noone can circumvent any of the NEC code but they can be more stringent.

The Electric Company is usually more concerned with which side of the house to
locate the meter than the height.  The only real concern on height would be so
that they can easily read the meter.  They can specify both if they want to but
it doesn't mean the Electrical Inspector has to agree with them.

The NEC codes would specify that the box type has to be approved for the
location, the box is usually wet, above grade.  Then there are the disconnect
codes where a meter generally isn't considered a means of disconnect, except by
the local Electric and Fire folks.  The entrance cable "shall have" a means of
disconnect upon entry.  They allow the fuse panel main to be that disconnect.
The entrance cable must also be visibly accessible all the way to the
disconnect, i.e. no running in walls as I think someone had suggested.  This is
also something siding folks violate when they come by years later...

This all says your local inspector can do anything but violate these rules.  If
he says it has to be 4' or 5' above grade, well, thats what it has to be.  If it
looks to be a hazardous location, he'll want you to encase the cable
appropriately (possibly conduit).

If the Electrician has his name on the permit then its his responsibility to
make it pass inspection.  If you pulled the permit, good luck.

-Tim

P.S.  Have you enjoyed reading the code manual ;^)

    I read the NEC96 book last night and couldn't find any code that 
    specify ground clearance for service entrance cable, nor the meter box.
    I suspect this is, as .97 mentioned, a Mass Electric's rule.
    
    I did some measurement last night. One meter is about 4 1/2 ft above
    grade, the second meter is about 3 1/2 ft above grade (the two meters
    are one above the other, and a disconnect on the side within the box). 
    The service drop(?) connects the top of the meter box and goes out at the 
    bottom on the meter box, then goes into the house at about 28 inches 
    above grade (which is about 6inches higher than where the old cable 
    came in). I don't think 3 1/2 ft above grade is really that low. But
    the inspector (or Mass Electric) may not agree. However, the
    electrician did not violate the NEC code, so it is fair to say this is 
    not his fault.
    
    Yes, the electrician pulled the permit and he is (not me) working on this
    problem. But as the home owner, I'm the one to suffer if it make the
    house look ugly, not the electrician.
    
    I have no problem to move the meter higher if that make the inspector
    happy. It's the part that running the cable into the living room bothers
    me.
    
    
    

>    I have no problem to move the meter higher if that make the inspector
>    happy. It's the part that running the cable into the living room bothers
>    me.

Run that by me again. My meter is chest high (I'm 6'2") and my cable runs 
into the house "just above" the foundation (ankle high).  It doesn't come 
anywhere near coming into my living room (the meter's outside the living 
room)

Move the meter up the side of the house.  Shorten the cable coming from 
the eaves into the meter box(es), replace the cable(s) running into the 
service entrance panel(s) with a longer one(s).  What's the big deal?  The 
point where they enter the wall doesn't need to change.

    Dig a hole under the meter...voila, meter is now 4-6 feet above "grade".

    ---Phil

> Dig a hole under the meter...voila, meter is now 4-6 feet above "grade".

	Obviously your joking, but just in case ... I would believe the
	def. of "grade" here would be "ground level".  The bottom of
	your hole would be "below grade", and the metter height above
	grade would not of changed.  If however you changed the elevation
	of the whole surrounding grounds ....... :-)

    re: .100
    > Move the meter up the side of the house.  Shorten the cable coming from
    > the eaves into the meter box(es), replace the cable(s) running into the
    > service entrance panel(s) with a longer one(s).  What's the big deal? 
    > The
    > point where they enter the wall doesn't need to change.
    
    That's exactly what I had in mind if the inspector would take this as the 
    solution, and its rather easy. Unfortunately, the inspect also wanted us 
    to move the "point of entrance" up. Which means we have to drill 2 more 
    holes thru the wall at a higher point and that will go right into our 
    living room. This is what I don't like. The electrician is going to 
    discuss this whole thing with the inspector's boss tomorrow. Hopefully
    his boss is a more sensible person.
    
    There is another problem the inspector gave us. My house is about 50
    yrs old. For some reason, the location of the water meter is not near
    the wall where the water line comes into the house. There is a shutoff
    valve at the point where the water line comes in. But the water meter
    is located about in the middle of the house near the wall. I believe
    it was like that when the house was built. The electrician connects a
    new grounding cable from the panel (I think?) to the water pipe before 
    the shutoff value and then jumper to after the valve.  The inspector 
    said this grounding is no good and wanted us to move the water meter
    close to where the water pipe comes in from outside. My electrician is
    going to discuss this with the inspector's boss when he see him
    tomorrow, and may be the city's plumbing inspector also. 
    

>>    it was like that when the house was built. The electrician connects a
>>    new grounding cable from the panel (I think?) to the water pipe before 
>>    the shutoff value and then jumper to after the valve.  The inspector 
>>    said this grounding is no good and wanted us to move the water meter
>>    close to where the water pipe comes in from outside. My electrician is
>>    going to discuss this with the inspector's boss when he see him
>>    tomorrow, and may be the city's plumbing inspector also. 

Sounds like you've pissed off the inspector - and its now a pissing contest
between them and the electrian. - 99.9% of the time the inspector wins.

In this case, they (the inspector) may have a valid point depending on if there
is a grounding rod also being used to provide the ground to the panel.  If
there isn't then that wire is not only gounding the plumbing in the house but
is also providing the ground for the service.  Since there is good chance that
the pipe between the shutoff and the meter could be worked on, when this is
taking place, there is no longer a ground provided to the panel/house plumbing.

Sounds like your having lots of fun!

Brian J.

>Sounds like you've pissed off the inspector - and its now a pissing contest
>between them and the electrian. - 99.9% of the time the inspector wins.
    
    This is what I was obliquely referring to when I said it sounded like
    the electrician and inspector hadn't "met" .. 
    
    That's why whenever I've pulled a building permit for carpentry, I make
    sure I spend time with the inspector beforehand, plans in hand, and
    make sure I deal with everything he mentions.. and even suggest a few
    extra inspection points.. 
    
    They remember you, and it makes life *much* easier later.. 
    
    ...tom