Conference 7.286::home_work

	Roof shingles usually curl because of age. The asphalt leaches 
out or slowly turns from gooey to stiff, making the shingles brittle. 
Poor ventilation in the attic/crawlspace can also attribute to shingle 
problems, however, it's more likely to cause problems with the sheathing 
as it did in my house. I was lucky in that the 3/8" 3-ply sheathing only 
delaminated and didn't begin to 'dry rot.' My house is about 20 years 
old. It is also the age where a roof usually needs replacing anyway.
	I laid 7/16" waferboard over the old sheathing after stripping 
off the old roof, put down roofing paper and did the job using Bird 
WeatherSeal 80 fiberglass reinforced shingles (I think the weight is 
225# per square). I got the materials at Grossmans on sale at a better 
price than *ANY* lumberyard I talked to. I know there have been 
rumblings about Grossmans quality, but stick with a nationally known 
brand name and you really can't go wrong.
	BTW...the worst part of the job is the yard cleanup after the 
strip-off! There were small pieces of shingle *EVERYWHERE* intermixed 
with rusty roofing nails!

    I got my roof fixed last year (Oct) and Fiberglas shingles were used
    on the new roof. 
    This was a major re-roof job (all the way back to NEW joists, plywood, 
    Wintercoat (rubber layer over the plywood) and shingles. Also all
    new wood facia and soffits with 5 roof vents and 100% soffit venting.
    A finish with Moore-gard Alkyd Primer and Moore-gard Latex House
    Trim White ... and all was well again, the roof ridge is straight
    and NOT sagging and the house now "breathes" as it should.
    All this was because the house rear dormer was installed WITHOUT 
    any concern for the moisture which was captured in the attic and 
    caused a myriad of troubles.
    A lot of $$ was spent to rectify a poor situation ... beware of
    this happening to you ... VENT YOUR HOUSE PROPERLY , OR ELSE !
    
    /JMP
    
    

       I need to do my roof over before the winter. I've had offers
    from friends to help me do it but I think I'll shop around  for
    a reasonable contractor to do it. This way, if I have any problems
    with it, I can call him to repair it, not to mention the insurance
    part of it. Any how.... my question..... Has anyone had a roof 
    done recently? I am interested in the fiberglass shingles
    that resemble real wood shingles. i.e.....
    
    
    |     |           |   |     |    |         |  |       |   |    |
    |_____|-----------|___|-----|____|---------|__|-------|___|----|
    
    Now tell me... could you ask for a better example? sorry. I am told
    that these type shingles cost quite a bit more that the conventional
    ones. Does anyone know how much of a price difference there is?
    Does anyone know of a reasonable roffer in the Worcester Ma. area?
    Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions.
                                                  /BB

    
    I believe these are called "architectural" shingles.

    $75/square for the fancy ones vs. maybe $30/square for your typical
    20-year GAF vanilla shingles.  The "architectural" shingles have
    a 30-year guarantee, I believe, but Bird has some plain 30-year 
    shingles for about $43/square so no matter how you figure it the
    architectural shingles are big bucks.  Not to mention harder to install,
    I believe.  
    Compared to the cost and hassle of installing them the cost of the
    shingles - no matter what kind you get - is fairly trivial, so I'd go
    for the best available.  But unless you REALLY want the appearance
    of the architectural shingles, go for the Bird 30-year shingles
    and save money.  (My opinion.)
    
    Steve

       Well how do you fell about this? I've seen many builders use
    the architectual ones on the slope of the roof visible from the
    front of the house(strictly for appearance) and regular shingles
    of the same color on the rest of the roof. This way the roof looks
    nice from the front. I really would'nt be so hung up on these 
    shingles except for the fact that the front slope of my home is
    so noticeable. I can't understand why they are so much more expensive.

If your friends couldn't convince you I'm sure I can't either BUT...

if you did the shingling yourself, you could afford the fancy shingles, a
couple of cases of beer and still have money left over for hospital bills!

-mark

    I just put on a new roof and was also attracted to the Arch. type
    shingles. I think they call them architectural type shingles because
    only successful architects can afford them. On the other hand, I
    bought a similar style shingle from P.F. O'Connor in Merrimack,
    NH., that was around $35 a square and guaranteed for I believe 25
    years. Here's the difference. The true arch. type shingle are much
    thicker because they usually are asphalt based. The mock shingle
    that I purchased is a fiberglass based shingle which is the reason
    it is so much thinner. 
    

    I put down 14 sq of these shingles last year for a neighbor. They
    cost more because they are essentially double layer. They acheive
    the random edge by cutting out tabs and overlaying other pieces
    making them double thick- also double heavy for the grunt that has
    to carry them onto the roof.
    
    The roof I did was Round- the house is like a silo 1 story high
    and 30' in diameter. The owner got one bid for $10,000 to roof the
    place and one for $5,000. And one guy said he didnt know how to
    do a round roof but to please give him a call when someone did it
    so he could come see a round roof.
    
    My brother and I did  the entire roof in about 12 hours and only
    charged the guy $2500. He got a deal and I didnt mind making $100
    per hour! The only way we could have done it was with these shingles
    since it was impossible to cut every single for a perfect flat fit
    but these are designed to have sdome overlap.
       
    

	My roof is 20 yrs old and needs to be replaced. The person I
        am contracting to do the job couldn't get around to it earlier,
        and in the meantime we get all this snow.

        Need advice on:

               o Should I wait till next spring? I recall some
                 adhesives don't cure properly at temps below 60-70F.

               o Is it better to remove the old roof (asphalt) shingles?

               o What is the most cost effective roofing material?

               o The old roof has de-icing cables installed at the edge
                  near the gutters. Are these a good idea to keep? I did
                  hear somewhere they do a number on the roofing material.

               o Am planning to install a couple of skylights. Should
                 this work be done before or after the new roof is put in?

       Copious comments cordially considered!!

    Replacing a roof in the winter is no problem as far as adhesives
    go because there aren't any.  It's the precipitation you have to
    worry about if you are going to strip the roof first.
    
    You should strip the roof if: 1) there are already 2 layers on the
    roof already, 2)the present shingles are uplifted and curled up.
    
    Heater cables on the roof do not harm the roof at all, but there
    are other alternatives, such as the 18" wide stainless steel skirt
    that runs the whole edge of a house.  There are quite effective
    but may not look good on some house styles.
    
    Skylights are going to be easier to put in before the new roof is
    put on, but again, if you are going to strip the roof, you don't
    have much time to install them in the winter.
    
    Finally, I've known quite a few people who strip a roof (if need be )
    and follow with new shingles all the way up the roof.  You just
    start at the edge and work your way up.  If your edges don't already
    have drip edge mouldings, install them before putting on any shingles.
    Don't forget the tar paper under new shingles if you strip the old
    shingles.
    
    
    /j

    As the previous reply said, there is no problem shingling the roof
    this time of year, I'm currently putting a new roof on my addition
    and I should have it done on Thanksgiving weekend. I also put in
    2 skylights, put them in before you reroof, it'll be alot easier.
    You might want to put down Bird water and ice barrier if you strip
    the roof, this helps keep the water from backing up under the shingles
    when there is an ice buildup on the roof.
    
    
    
    Royce

    RE: .1
    >>> ... no problem as far as adhesives go because there aren't any.
    
    Most shingles have a small strip of tar (or some tacky substance)
    just above the tabs.  When you lay your next strip over, this stuff
    holds the front of the tabs flat.
    
    -al

    
    One thing you have to be careful about is that asphalt shingles
    get very brittle in cold weather. Normal Nov. days here in NH are
    plenty warm, but such days have been in short supply this year.
    
    The brittleness is a problem both in that the shingles you're 
    applying tend to break, and that the chances of your damaging
    what you've already applied are greater.
    
    Stu
    

Ditto on .4... brittleness can be a pain; I shingled the roof of my
    new addition last November (didn't quite finish 'cause it got snowed
    on!) and some of the shingles were too brittle to handle.   It's
    a good idea if you can store them indoors, bringing them out a
    bundle at a time... but it's a pain to be running up and down all
    the time.  You MUST keep some of them warmed for doing the cap:
    the cap must be "formed" by bending each shingle to fit; the greater
    the pitch of the roof, the more severe the bend will have to be.
    Don't take chances on cracking those: they ar% arguably the most
    important shingles on the roof.   also, don't forget plenty of roofing
    tar under the cap layer---both sides.  Same holds true for putting
    down something like Cora-Vent for cathedral roof.... lots of goop!
    Jim
    

    I was going to shingle my roof last November but was told by what
    I consider reliable sources not to unless absolutly necessary. 
    The reason given was that shingles have seal tabs to prevent the
    wind from blowing them up.  The part of the roof that faces north
    most likely will not get enough sun to make the seal tab stick.
    Also shingles (especially fiberglass) get brittle and are hard to
    work with and might crack when you walk on them.  Of course if it
    is too hot you also have problems.  We had not planned on replacing
    any plywood but had planned on stripping the roof.  When we got
    the roof stripped we found that a lot of the sheets of plywood had
    delaminated and had to replace them.  My advice would be to get
    a bucket of tar and patch the roof and delay it till warmer weather
    unless of course it is beyond patching.  What if you get the job
    partly done and get a nice big snow storm or have the wather suddenly
    turn real cold?
    

    By all means yes! Especially if you can find "gold" t-locks.
    
    What? You mean that you've never heard of... [are you ready?]

    
    Gold t-locks and the three squares!

Related Question:

I just had the roof inspected on my new abode.  Was told that the 
shingles looked very good, but the torrential rains of the last week 
did expose some small leaks.  The inspector suggested having the roof 
'sealed' with asphalt fiberated aluminum roof coating.  Anyone hear of 
this stuff, is it worth it?  Also - can anyone recommend a good roofer
near sudbury who does small jobs like this (roof may also need some 
patching and sealing around the flashings)
	
			thanx	/j

Gee, you mean no-one's heard of "asphalt fiberated aluminum roof coating"?  

    
    I have a question about a roofing job I had done, along with a
    dormer addition.
    
    While finishing the inside of the dormer, I was installing a galv.
    stove pipe through the roof.  Well, when I took off the couple of
    shingles to cut the hole, I noticed the plastic that is over the
    tar seal wasn't off!, as well as no F#$%%^& tar paper!!!!  The roof
    is presently 1.5 years old and hasn't leaked, but this greatly concerns
    me.  I still owe the person 500., and am seriously considering reniging
    on this payment.
    
    Has anyone had similar problems found in construction 1-2 years
    after completion.  This person is a local, has a business, and the
    work is "guaranteed".  I doubt I want this jamoke touching my house
    again.
    
    Is the roof "ok", or is a re-roof mandatory.  There is toungue and
    grove pine for roofing wood. "origional"
    
    Thanks
    
    Bruce

    Did the roofing contractor give you a contract indicating the guarantee
    period??
    
    I seem to remember that there was a statement on the packaging of
    a bundle of shingles indicating it is arbitrary whether or not
    you remove the plastic. You could check by calling the local place
    the shingles are sold.
    
    hope this help all that 5&%$@%%%&*^&^%^$&^%  :^)
    
    adeu
    Canuck

    i don't know about the plastic strips still being there.... i know
    that no-one removes them when applying shingles, so i thought they
    were supposed to melt when the roof got hot....
    
    
    regarding lack of tarpaper-   nowadays it's common practice for
    a builder not to bother with tarpaper...  it's not really necessary
    according to them......
    
    

Tarpaper isn't necessary unless your roof is pitched below the 4:12 
reccommended by the shingle manufacturers.  We used it on ours, because the 
roof is only 3:12, but if it was steeper I wouldn't put it on either.

The plastic is not designed to be taken off.  If you look, the tar dabs on the 
shingles are not hitting the plastic.  The shingles are designed so that the 
tar dabs line up with the plastic when the shingles are bundled, so they don't 
stick together all in one mass, but they don't line up once the shingles are 
installed.

Your roof is fine.

Paul

    Ditto on .3 re: the plastic strips.  They don't interfere with the
    tar dots at all.  On the shingles I'm using (Bird), I think the
    instructions specifically say NOT to take them off, because the
    nails go through them and the strips help to strengthen the shingles
    at that point.
    
    Tarpaper is useful only to cover up a roof overnight if you've got
    more exposed than you can shingle.  It's of mixed benefit even
    for low-pitch roofs.  It can buckle and create waves in the shingles
    if it gets too wet before the shingles are put down.
    I'm in the process of stripping a roof about 19-20 years old; they 
    didn't use tarpaper, and it's fine.  I used to be a great believer
    in tarpaper; I'm not anymore.

    
     It's time for my shingles to be replaced (they're 25 years old)
    and I also noticed there's no tar paper beneath. I'm not sure what
    its benefit is when you consider all the nails you pierce it with.
     I would consider, though, an ice and water barrier  of enormous
    value after going through such a damn ice dam winter. 

                                                        
    -rob
    
                                                          

     A row of tar paper along water contact points such as edges, drainage
    channels, changes in roof pitches/intersections etc.,. Their is
    many differences of opinions about the use of tar paper in wood
    construction. My personal opinion is as long as your sheathing with
    a good exterior plywood, you can eliminate the tar paper.
    

    Will the author of this note (or the moderator) please put a meaningful
    title on it?

    We just bought a house that has cedar shingles on the roof, and
    we were wondering if there is anything special that we have to do
    to take care of it.  Is it OK the way it is?  Do we have to treat
    it in some way?  How often?  
    
    If anyone has any ideas on this, it would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Cathy

      You can leave it and it should last around 20-30 years, or you
    can put something like Thompsons Water Seal on it every 2 years
    and it should last indefinitely (almost).
    
    					Kenny

>I just had the roof inspected on my new abode.  Was told that the 
>shingles looked very good, but the torrential rains of the last week 
>did expose some small leaks.  From the attic, what you could see 
primarily was a few wet supporting 2x4s . The inspector suggested
having the roof 'sealed' with asphalt fiberated aluminum roof
coating, around the affected areas and flashings.


I contacted the	roofer who roofed the house 7yrs ago.  He offered to 
come over for $50 and pour  plastic roof cement over all the effected 
places.  Suggested I could do it myself if I wanted.  Is this a 
sufficient fix?  Is this as easy as he made it sound?

    Any thots or experience with ASPHALT shingles vs FIBERGLASS shingles?
    
    I'm adding a 2nd story, and will be getting a new roof (obviously)
    so I have a choice.
    
    Pros and cons?
    
    -Dave     

     Fiberglass are easier to cut, have a better fire rating and are
    generally more available. Asphalt don't break as easily so they
    don't have to be handled as carefully. Of course it's your choice,
    but if you don't have any preferences, why not go with what you can get
    the best deal on.
    
    					Kenny

    They're the same thing.  "Fiberglass" in this case refers to the
    base mat the asphalt is impregnated in.  Formerly, some sort of
    organic felt/fiber mat was used for asphalt shingles.  Nowadays
    I think virtually all asphalt shingles use a fiberglass mat.
    Careful with them - they are more fragile to work with than the
    old kind.  They tear more easily.  Once down though, they're supposed
    to be better than the old kind.

    There is no need to put anything on them. I put a cedar roof on
    about 10 years ago and it still looks fine. The house across the
    street has a cedar roof which is 25 years old and it also looks
    fine. I have heard of putting lineseed oil on cedar roofs. In fact,
    I saw a roof were this was done. It seemed to preserve the original
    color for a year or so but outside of that didn't seem to be doing
    much. A key factor in how long cedar roofs last is how fast they
    dry off. If you have trees that shade a portion of the roof so 
    that it stays wet a lot of the time, watch out. 

    
    	Do the "Fiberglass" shingles mentioned here include the Owens
    	Corning brand fiberglass roofing shingles? I thought these were
    	supposed to give you some "marginal" energy savings.(?)
    
    /Kevin

Howdy!

I noticed that Moore's has the Bird "Wind Seal 80" (i think 
that's the style) on sale for $7.87 per bundle.    I have been 
keeping my eyes out for prices on those things for a while and 
that's the best I've seen (that I would care to buy)...

If anyone out there can give me any reasons why I _shouldn't_ buy 
that particular brand of shingles now (i.e. "Bird sucks..", 
"Foo Bar has the same stuff twice as cheap...", etc) then I'm 
gonna jump on 'em _quick_.

Any input?  Anyone gonna stop me before I do something I'll 
regret?  ;^)

/doug

    As far as I know, Owens Corning roof shingles are just like everybody
    else's: a fiberglass mat impregnated with asphalt.  They may have
    some other sort fiberglass roofing product I don't know about, but
    if the product you're thinking of looks like a "normal" shingle,
    then any energy saving is in the imagination of the advertising
    manager.  ANYTHING has a "marginal" insulating value, but for all
    practical purposes I think you can forget about any significant
    insulation coming from shingles.  All the brands should be virtually 
    the same in that respect.

    As far as I know, Bird shingles are good.  I can't say if $7.87
    a "good price" for those shingles or not.
    One thing to keep in mind, compared to the amount of work involved
    in putting them on, the cost of the shingles is absolutely trivial.
    I'd recommend getting the longest-lived shingles you can find.
    Bird makes a 30-year shinge that's about $45-$50/square, about double
    what you're talking about, but they might be worth considering as
    the better value in the long run.

    Bird has three grades of the "standard" house type shingle, that you'll
    find most often, 

    "Good" = Wind-Seal 80,  20 year warantee, $6-10 range.
    "Better" = ?,           25 year warantee. $10-12 range.
    "Best" = Seal King,     30 year warantee. $12-15 range.
    
    Price ranges are per bundle (3 bundles per square) and vary from
    store to store and sale to sale.

    I noticed some Bird shingles at Spag's in front of the school house
    yesterday. They were $6-7 a bundle but I didn't notice which type,
    probably the Wind-Seal 80s.

    Charly

    The 30-year Bird shingles come 4 bundles to the square, because
    they are thicker and heavier.

re: < Note 1141.3 by AUTHOR::WELLCOME "Steve" >


    >The 30-year Bird shingles come 4 bundles to the square, because
    >they are thicker and heavier.


	Actually they come four bundles to the square because they are
	"full double coverage".

	I put the 30 year shingles on my house when I build it.  I hope
	to never again have to reshingle.

	-gary

    Can you clarify what you mean by "full double coverage"?  The shingles 
    I'm using (allegedly Bird's 30-year shingles) look like all the
    other asphalt shingles I've ever used (12" x 36", 3-tab).  The only
    difference I can discern is that they are thicker and heavier. 
    If the Bird 30-year shingles are something else, with my roof 3/4
    complete I'm going to be awfully annoyed with my contractor!!!
    (The Bird model name for the shingles I'm using is "Fireline".)

re : < Note 1141.5 by AUTHOR::WELLCOME "Steve" >


>    Can you clarify what you mean by "full double coverage"?  

	First the name of mine wasn't Fireline.  I'd have to check the
	left over bundle at home for the name.  But they were 30 year
	jobs.  Bird Architect maybe?

	As far as full double coverage goes...let's see how I could describe
	that ....

	The first shingle goes down and looks like this:


		-----------------------------------------
		|  There were a few tabs here           |  This half gets
		|     but I can't recall how many       |  covered by next
		|                                       |   shingle
		|                                       |
		|---------------------------------------|
		|                                       |  This half stays
		|                                       |   exposed.
		|                                       |
		|                                       |
		-----------------------------------------


	After this every shingle has a complete double covering on the roof
	instead of a just partial overlap like a lot of other shingles do.
	
	By laying a row of shingles upside down under the first coarse along
	the edge (to help against ice dams) you get double coverage there
	also.

	When I bought my shingles I was told that only the 30 year ones
	provided you with double coverage.

	-gary

    All the asphalt shingles I've ever seen go down the way you've
    described - all have "double coverage".  They are laid "five 
    inches to the weather" so you have 7" under the next shingle
    that goes on top, and so on.  It's definitely not true only of
    30-year shingles.  
    I assume the "architectural" shingles you got are the one with
    the random-width tabs, that are supposed to sort-of look like
    cedar shingles?  The "Fireline" shingles are straight 3-tab shingles.
    Both kinds may well have a 30-year rating; the architectural shingles
    just look better (to some people), and probably cost more.

re: < Note 1141.7 by AUTHOR::WELLCOME "Steve" >


	I looked at the shingles I had left over to help me remember the
	story.  These shingles (which are Bird Mark 80) have the asphalt
	on the whole shingle.  The part that is exposed has asphalt that
	is the color you want to show and the other half is just black
	asphalt.  What you get is two layers of the asphalted covering.

	Also, these had no tabs on them.  I wasn't sure before.

	Sorry for any confusion...

	-gary

I hope this isn't too inappropriate a palce to ask but it kinda makes 
sense as shingles is the topic.

I've just built a dog house out of CDX. Even the roof. Although the 
thing is painted I probably should put some shingles on the roof. It's 
just that I don't need a lot of shingles and don't want to buy a whole 
bundle.

I need enough to cover two 2'X3' sections (12 sq ft). Anyone out 
there who has shingles left over from their last roofing job want to 
donate (or at least sell at a reaonble price) some so that the dog has 
a decent roof over his head.

Chuck
297-5281

    You should have a "cold roof" anyway so if your roof is providing
    insulation, you don't have a proper roof. "Cold roof" meaning an air
    flow between the bottem of the roof decking and the top of the
    insulation from eave up to ridge.
    
    Harry
    

    another reason their so expensive (besides being twice the price
    per bundle as regular shingles), is that they require 4 bundles
    per square vs 3 bundles for regular shingles.
    
    I believe they are called archectect 80 or 90 shingles.
    
    Fra

It looks like I'm going to be doing some roofing in about 2-3 weeks.  All I need
to do is figure out what kind of shingle I want.  I've been impressed with the
architectural shingles, but was quoted $65/square which a a lot of $$$'s. 
Anybody know where they can be had cheaper?  Are they much harder to put up than
regular shingles?  Now for a real loaded question - how long might one expect
to take?  I've got to put up around 22 squares and would like to be able to do 
it in 2-3 weekends.  Have I got a prayer?

I've already removed part of the old roof (where my addition attaches to the
house) and have found 3 foot wide strip of rolled roofing (is that what it's
called) which I assume is to prevent frost heaves.  Is that the best way to do
it or are there other materials available?

Finally, what about doing the valleys?  As I see it there are three options:

	o	flashing
	o	overlapping both sides of the valley
	o	overlap one side and cut the second in a straight line

Our current roof has the third method.  Flashing looks ok, but I suspect that
unless it's really wide, it doesn't protect as well as overlapping shingles.
As to overlapping both sides and not having a clearly defined valley, I'm not
sure I like that all that much.  It's certainly the easiest way and really only
limited to personal tastes.

Comments?

-mark

RE:421.8 

	Hi Mark-

	     Don't know about architectural shingles but as to your other 
	questions:

>I've already removed part of the old roof (where my addition attaches to the
>house) and have found 3 foot wide strip of rolled roofing (is that what it's
>called) which I assume is to prevent frost heaves.  Is that the best way to do
>it or are there other materials available?

	Its rolled roofing if it has a mineral surface (crushed stone, just
	like regular shingles) over 2/3 of its surface area.  Otherwise its
	65 lb. felt roofing this is most likely what you have.

>Finally, what about doing the valleys?  As I see it there are three options:
>
>	o	flashing
>	o	overlapping both sides of the valley
>	o	overlap one side and cut the second in a straight line

	All the buildings we have done we cover the entire roof with no. 15 
	felt paper (tar paper).  Then we cover the bottom edges with a layer
	of the 65 lb. felt, you are correct for frost and ice damming 
	prevention.  Finally all valleys are covered again with 65 lb. felt
	centered down the valley.  When we shingle the valleys we weave *both*
	sides.  I'm not sure what you mean by a non-defined valley, I do know
	this is a weather tight valley.  By the way any nailing within six
	inches of the valley should be avoided if possible or sealed with tar.

	Good Luck - Randy

    re .9  relative to 'weaving' both sides - Does the angle of
    intersection matter?  I'm coming up on a project where the roofs
    intersect at less that 90 degrees (107 actually) where one roof
    is an 11 pitch and the other a 12 pitch.  The valley is pretty tight
    and I'm wondering about the flexibility of the shingles if 'woven'
    across the vally.  Other houses which appear similar show about
    4" of metal flashing the length of the valley.
    
    Any recommendations about when metal should be used vs weaving the
    shingles or is it purely an aesthetic decision?
    
    Thanks   -Stan
    

> I've been impressed with the architectural shingles, but was quoted
> $65/square which a a lot of $$$'s.

You get what you pay for. I used them a few years ago primarily
because of the greater expected lifetime. As I recall, my total
material cost for 32 squares of roof was about $2000, which is
consistent with what you're seeing.

> Are they much harder to put up than regular shingles?

Not really. The only difference is the increased mass - 300 lb per
square vs 225 per square for "ordinary" shingles. One gotcha - since
they don't have gullets, they're a pain to cut into thirds for ridge
pieces. On my roof, we used ordinary shingles for the ridges for this
reason.

> Now for a real loaded question - how long might one expect to take? 
> I've got to put up around 22 squares and would like to be able to do
> it in 2-3 weekends.  Have I got a prayer?

Suggest you consider getting some help. I did my roof a few years ago,
and found that on my own, I could manage maybe 2 squares a day (I was
stripping the old shingles and putting down 15 lb felt as well.) I
originally planned on doing my 32 square roof myself, and blocked off
two weeks to do it. On the morning of the third day, working in a
light drizzle and looking back on the small progress I had made so
far, I began to feel seriously depressed, when a red Datsun pulled into
my driveway, two burly looking guys stepped out and said "Want some
help? We're roofers." Needless to say, they were hired on the spot.

Last fall, 3 of us (carpenter, assistant, and myself) shingled the
roof on an addition. Took us a solid day for 7 squares, as I recall.
(Actually, 1 1/2 days, but that included time for flashing against
the existing house and other miscellania.) Both of these cases were
low (3 1/2") pitch roofs with easy access. For purposes of
calibration, I consider myself a reasonably competent handyman of
somewhat below average strength and size.

About half the work of shingling a roof is just getting the shingles
up there. Compute it out: you're talking about carrying 6600 pounds of
shingles up a ladder onto the roof. Even if you're the only one on the
job who knows which end of a hammer to hold, having another strong
back and weak mind to lug shingles will halve your time.

    I just finished replacing about half my roof.  If you are working
    on your own 3-4 squares a day is REAL good.  This assumes all the
    underlayment and flashing has been taken care of.  I agree with
    the previous opinions - getting the bundles of shingles up is the
    worst part.
    
    Weaving the shingles is not a problem if you let them warm up in
    the sun a bit first - the asphalt/fiberglass types get quite pliable.
    
    /Dave

    Check other shingling notes for information about what to do at
    the eaves.  There is some high-tech stuff available, a plastic
    membrane with one side covered with goop, with a paper backing 
    you peel off so it sticks to the roof.  It's self-sealing around
    nails, and it looks like it ought to work real well.  HOwever,
    it's about $100 for a 75' roll, so when I did my roof I used it
    only on the problem areas (north side) and used the 60# smooth
    roll on the other eaves.
    
    Forget the 15# felt on the roof; you don't need it.  I was always
    a believer in using it, but lately I've decided that it serves
    absolutely no useful purpose.  Its only value is as temporary
    weatherproofing if you strip off more than you can get reshingled
    in a day.
    
    How you do the valleys is purely personal aesthetics.  Weaving
    is about the easiest and fastest, and I suspect the most durable.
    I put a strip of 60# smooth roll down the valley first, just to
    make sure.  The angle of the intersection of the roofs DOES make
    a difference (does it ever!).  You'll have to drop an overlap
    every so often, or double up on an overlap, to get the angle to
    come out right.  For some reason I found it very hard to figure
    out "on the spot" (sitting on the roof looking at this valley that
    wasn't coming out right), but if you're forewarned it shouldn't
    be any big deal.

    I have been reroofing my house recently and have the following
    opinions. If you have lots of valleys 3 tab shingles are faster
    than t-loc. Weaving the valleys is alot faster than cutting and
    creates less waste. Having the shingles delivered on the roof
    is the only, *ONLY* way to go. Working early in the morning and
    late in the afternoon really helps you beat the heat.
    And last but not least is an experienced(read years of experience)
    roofer can lay 8-12 sq a day where a novice like myself can max
    out at 5 sq a day with practice. I got really good at it about the
    same time as i finished.
    Websters should list roofing as an example for manual labor.
    
    -j
    

    I gotta ask -
    
    Who delivered and how in hell did you get them to deliver 'on the
    roof' ??
    
    Even if you get someone to do that,  Lots of coordination required
    and you gotta spread the load out over a large area.
    
    You are kidding - right ??

>    And last but not least is an experienced(read years of experience)
>    roofer can lay 8-12 sq a day where a novice like myself can max
>    out at 5 sq a day with practice. 

Yeah, but they usually use pneumatic staplers.  5 square a day with a hammer is 
really cruising.

> I got really good at it about the same time as i finished.

Yup, the first law of DIY.  You become proficient at any job after it's over, 
but rarely before.
    
>    Who delivered and how in hell did you get them to deliver 'on the
>    roof' ??
    
>    You are kidding - right ??

Nope, no kidding.  You usually have to get somewhere that specializes in 
roofing materials, though.  Your average lumberyard will just drop them on the 
ground, but roofing supply houses will have a lift truck to put them right on 
the roof.  Professional roofers realized long ago that half the effort is in 
carting them up there.

In the same way, sheetrock trucks always have a lift to drop the sheets off 
upstairs.

Paul

    re .14 & .15

    I don't know about New England, but in Minesota any serious lumber
    yard will elevate roofing materials on delivery for you, assuming
    you have the people on the roof to catch and spread them out. It
    certainly is worth the asking.
    
    If you do end up carrying bundles to the roof, do yourself a favor and
    get a "real" ladder.  Wood ladders are the best, or a very heavey duty
    aluminum extension ladder that you don't have to extend.
    
    The last roof I helped on, they had a bobcat on site that lifted
    for us. After building a small ramp, its bucket would just clear
    the eaves (not too many at time, gets top heavy fast).
    
    -dj-
     

    I used a roofing supply house. I thought delivered on the roof was
    standard practice they dident even charge extra.
    A true pro can lay 12 sq a day with hammer and nails. I watched
    it happen. A buddy that owed me a favor(roofer by trade) came over
    to help me he started on one side i on the other. He finished laying
    his 8 sq for that side of the roof then helped me finish my side.
    Like he said" You hafta learn to do it fast or find another job".
    
    If they dont deliver on the roof out there i suggest you folks start
    refusing delivery. Who ever heard of delivering halfway?"
    In my case they spread them out over the roof and few had to be
    moved to the right place during the work. They also put the right
    number on the detached garage also spread out for easy work.
    Sounds like you guys out east have a hard time finding quality
    vendors willing to do what we here consider standard practice.
    Sorry to hear that I know that must make a difficult job even
    harder. Gawd I couldent imagine lugging them up a ladder my back
    hurts just thinking about it.
    
    -j
    

I've been looking at prices of the Architect shingles and they are indeed big
$$$'s.  I looked at three places and two of them wanted $75-$80/square.  Just
for laughs I called Wick Lumber (which is usually higher priced) and they only
wanted $55.  I asked the guy if we were talking about same thing since everyone
else wanted $25 more and he said they were indeed the same.  Only difference I
could tell was the brand.  His were Owens-Corning and the others were GAF and
Bird.

Is there a big difference in brands when they all have the same guarantee?

-mark

    When reroofing, what are the disadvantages of laying composition
    shingles directly over wood shingles without the intervention
    of felt?  I have heard that resins from the wood could cause
    the composition shingles to deteriorate more rapidly than they
    otherwise might.
    

    I don't see why resin from wood shingles should be any different
    than resin from boards - I don't think that is an issue.
    I think your real problem would be the unevenness of wood
    shingles.  Asphalt (I assume that's what you mean by "composition"
    shingles really need to be laid on a flat surface for best results,
    and old wooden shingles certainly aren't flat!  A layer of felt
    would help a little, but I doubt that it would be of significant
    benefit.  I've heard of using beveled wood strips to even out the
    "steps" of wooden shingles, but doing that sounds like more work
    than taking off the old shingles.
    Personally, I'm a great believer in taking off the old shingles
    anyway, especially if it's an old house.  That way you get a chance
    to inspect the condition of the roof deck and fix any rot before
    it gets out of hand.

    .1 has it about right. The resins are not a big problem but the
    uneveness is VERY BIG. What happens is this: in the summer the
    shingles will soften and sag over the butt ends of the wood and
    when they stiffen up they will crack, then they soften again and
    sag some more then ... In a very short time (I've heard as little
    as 2 years, seen as little as 5) you have a roof with the
    characteristics of a sieve. 
    	This is also why it is better to strip a layer of asphalt before 
    you re-roof, even though the uneveness is comparably slight. The 
    notches in the underlying shingles provide enough space for the 
    sagging and cracking to happen. The results there are usually 
    not noticeable for 10 to 15 years.
    
    	You may find, depending on the type of wood shingles (shakes?)
    and age of the house, that you don't have any sheathing at all.
    You may just have some narrow boards spaced to support the tapered
    end of eack course and provide for nailing.
    
    Alan

    .1 and .2 hit it on the nose. Most older homes only have nailing
    strips for the shingles. You're much better off to do the job right
    the first time around, with sheathing. Besides it doesn't take long
    to strip the roof of the old stuff with a rented shingle stripper
    bar, plus the benefit of the old shingles for starting fires with.
    It's great stuff for that!
    
    Bruce

I'm looking at a 13 year old house with cedar shingles that are in rather
bad shape: some are missing, some are curling up, and there's moss here
and there on most of the roof.  Some of the ridge boards are loose, too.
There's some tall trees to the south, so the roof probably doesn't get 
much direct sun in the summer and so probably doesn't dry very fast.
The owners say the roof was damaged in a storm (I don't know when).

My question is: how bad is this?  There doesn't seem to be water leaking
in as yet (well, maybe in one spot), although I'll get a house inspector
to make sure.  But does this sound like the sort of problem that can be
fixed (at least for a few years) with a relatively cheap repair job (ie 
<$1000), or does this sound like I'd have to destroy the roof to save it?

Supposing that I do have to replace the roof (now or in a few years), is 
there something I can do about the dampness, besides cut some trees down?
Would water proofing the shingles help combat the moss?  Would using
thicker shingles help prevent the curling?  Or is it best to give up on
cedar shingles?  I'd rather not do that, either, because this house looks
particularly good in cedar shingles.  

	Thanks,
	Larry

    	 Here is yet another roofing note.    My question concerns an 
    easy (ha..    that's  a  joke)  way  to  remove  shingles  without 
    excessive damage.   I've  tried  to  do this a number of times and 
    always vow never again.    I  always end up damaging and replacing 
    more than I intended and/or using tar to fix a hole in one shingle 
    I gave up on.
    
    	 All you  DIYers  must know what I'm talking about.  You're SO 
    says wouldn't a skylight look nice here.  So you run out and buy a 
    skylight get it home and pull out the  instructions  Friday night.  
    The 2nd or 3rd line of every unit says  to  remove  shingles being 
    careful not to damage in the area desired.  This  is  an oxymoron, 
    it can't be done.  As you soon find out come Saturday morning when 
    you climb up on the roof with your handy flat bar.   The  shingles 
    are  either  too  brittle  and crack to easily or else to soft and 
    tear apart  or  the  top  one  is  permanently  welded  to the one 
    underneath.
    
    	 My    latest   try  and  selective  reroofing  was  yesterday 
    afternoon.  I  figured  a  couple  of  hours  to  pull back 3 or 4 
    courses of shingles and  replace  the  two 4 foot sections of drip 
    edge (left as a result  of  an  addition)  with  a  single  8 foot 
    section.  I had extra shingles, drip edge, and pine to rebuild the 
    soffit.    I  figured how hard could  it  be  to  pull  apart  the 
    shingles, after all they've only been on the roof for a year, They 
    couldn't  be  stuck  down  that bad....  Wrong 95  degree  weather 
    breath. 
    
    	 Well I think everyone gets the picture.   It  took  a  little 
    longer and didn't come out quite as nice as I would have liked and 
    who knows if its water tight.
    
    	 So my question for this note is this:
	 
	 
    	 Anyone    have  a  good  method  for  sectional  removal  and 
    replacement of asphalt roof shingles?
    
    	 When is the best time to do this? Hot or Cold temperatures?
	 
	 
	      thanks... but too late...
	      	   	     	       ...Dave
				       
				       

Comments from hearsay, not from experience:

1. There's a special tool for shingle removal.  It's a long, flat bar with 
   a sharp edge:  you reach up under a shingle, use the edge to cut through 
   the nails, then pry the shingle out.

2. 95� weather is too hot for you, let alone for the shingles.  I suspect, 
   for your own well-being as well as that of the materials, you should 
   wait for 50-to-80-degree weather.

    The nail-cutting tool .1 mentions might ease the job because less
    bending of the shingle would be required than would be if you were
    trying to pry the shingles back enough to get at the nails.  YOu
    might be able to separate the shingles at the glue gobs with something
    like a putty knife, then reach in and cut the nails.
    
    From extremely limited experience in trying to remove shingles 
    carefully (when one is peeling off old shingles, one doesn't pay 
    too much attention!), I think you might have better luck in cool 
    to cold weather.  The glue tends to get brittle.  Of course, the 
    shingles tend to get brittle too, so it's a losing battle.  But
    95-degree weather is most definitely not the kind of weather for
    working on a roof.  The shingles get so soft they almost fall apart.
    
    The bottom line is no, I don't know any nifty way to do this.

    The nail cutting tool in .1 is for removing WOODEN SHAKES not asphalt
    of fiberglass roofing shingles.  The thicker roofing nails don't
    cut like the thin shake nails.
    
    Alas, I don't have any handy hints either but using that flat tool
    is the wrong approach.  It would have more of a tendency to tear
    out the nail rather than cut it.  This would only make things worser
    - not betterer.

	 
>    	 Anyone    have  a  good  method  for  sectional  removal  and 
>        replacement of asphalt roof shingles?
 
     Good method?  Well my method worked for me.....see below--
   
>    	 When is the best time to do this? Hot or Cold temperatures?

     Moderate temps to be sure.  Too hot-- you and the shingles suffer.  Too
  cold and they get too brittle to work with.  On the whole I'd rather it be
  too warm than too cold.

	I installed two skylights (Roto SV-14) after my roof was installed and
  I didn't have to replace any of the shingles.  Here's what I did-- 

  Located where I wanted the opening to be.  Added 2" to each side of the 
  window RO.  Cut the shingles through to the roof sheathing with a utility 
  knife and remove them.  So what I had looked like this:



			+---------------+
			| +-----------+ |
			| |	      | |
			| |	      | |
   shingles to here---->| | Window RO | |
			| |	      | |
			| |	      | |
			| |	      | |
			| +-----------+ |
			+---------------+

     Now I cut out the inner square (sheathing).  My interior was 
  unfinished at that time, so I now could stand in the opening and work from 
  there.  If your interior is finished, you'll have to cut that out now as well.
  Once done, it's easy to work on the shingles from the cut edges.  I used a 
  serrated knife (one you'll never want to carve a roast with again!) and
  slipped it between the shingles and used it to cut down through the tar gobs,
  thereby freeing the shingle so that step flashing could be slipped in under-
  neath each one.  If done carefully, the shingles are absolutely undamaged.
  When I encountered a nail, I simply stuck a hacksaw blade between the 
  shingles and sheathing and cut it off.

     Once all the shingles were free and the nails removed, it was easy to
  install the window and the flashing.  The first window took one day to do.
  The other took only a half a day because of what I had learned from the 
  first one!

     It's hard to explain and draw pictures here so if anything I said is
  unclear, feel free to give me a call.

							--Mike  293-5621

    1. you will want to attack this job in the early morning, when it's
    cool and the sun has not yet hit the roof... Using a putty knife
    you can separate the glob of tar that binds the top shingle to the
    shingle under it easily without doing damage to the bottom shingle
    (the one you want to save).
    
    2. Remove the unwanted shingles in any manner you please.
    
    3. At some point you must stop removing, and save what you need
    to keep without tearing the #$%^%$ out of them as one nail holds
    at least 2 shingles below it, which you will need to remove this
    nail to install your flashing or more shingles to complete your
    job. Here I find that the roofing nails don't hold all that well
    and subtle prying with a wonder bar (ask for a "wonder bar") will
    do the trick..
    
    
    It works, be patient and take your time
    
    
    							Dave
    

There is one key point here to remember.  Shingles have 2 rows of nail, the one
you immediately see and the row nailed through the shingles above the one you
want to remove.  YOu have to get out both rows of nails.

The suggestion about the putty knike is a good one.  I use a "wonder-bar"
(or whatever it's called), but that's a minor point.

The real trick is how do you remove nails in the shingles you want to save?  If
you just rip them out you'll damage the single.  The method I've been fairly
successful with is using a nail puller (sometimes called a cat paw).  It digs
out the nail without harming the shingle too much.

My question is then what do you do when you renail the new shingles back in?  If
you simply reuse the hole your nail doesn't grip anything.  If you leave the 
hole will you encourage leaks?  I usually end up filling the hole (even though
there is minimal gripping of the nail) and add a second nail near by.

-mark

I am just finishing shingling my new garage & breezeway and am having a 
little trouble putting the ridge cap shingles on.  What I am doing is using
a full tab and layering them accross the ridge with 5 inch exposure.  I cant
get them to lie flat and sometimes they start to crack where I bend them at
the peak.  the roof is 11 inch pitch so the shingles have to be bent almost
90 degrees.  What Ive been doing is covering any cracks in the shingle with 
a little roof cement.  Someone suggested cutting the back corners off the shingle
to help them lay flat.  Has anyone else found any tricks??  I noticed that 
if the temperature is just right (not too cold or hot) I have better luck bending
them.  

Thanx

    	ONE FULL THREE TAB SHINGLE WILL MAKE THREE PIECES OF ROOF CAPPING.
    WHEN CUTTING THE SHINGLE YOU START IN THE GROVE BETWEEN THE TABS
    AND ANGLE YOUR CUT SO THAT THE REAR OF THE CAP IS NARROWER THAT
    THE CAP ITSELF (THE ORIGINAL SHINGLE TAB).
    	I HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH MANY ROOFS IN MY YOUNGER DAYS.  MY
    FATHER WAS A GENERAL CONTRACTOR AND MY BROTHERS AND I WERE THE HELP.
    THE TABS SHOULD BEND MORE EASILY WHEN WARM.  APPLY PRESSURE TO THE
    TAB ON THE EDGES AND SLOWLY (THATS SSLLOOOOOWWLLYY) BEND EACH. 
    BENDING THE TABS TOO RAPIDLY EVEN WHEN WARM CAN CAUSE THE CAP TO
    CRACK. 
    	ALSO APPLY THE CAPS STARTING ON THE END OF THE RIDGE THAT THE
    WIND COMES FORM MOST FREQUENTLY, AND WORK AWAY FROM THAT END.  THIS
    IS SO THE OVERLAPS AREN'T EXPOSED TO THE DIRECT FORCE OF THE WIND.
    	
    		GOOD LUCK!!
    
    
    JOEL
    

    
    **************THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF REPLY 2637.1 SHOULD READ***********
    
    	ALSO APPLY THE CAPS STARTING FROM THE OPPOSITE END OF THE RIDGE
    THAT THE WIND COMES FROM MOST FREQUENTLY AND WORK AWAY FROM THAT
    END.  THIS IS SO THE OVERLAPS ARE NOT EXPOSED TO THE DIRECT FORCE
    OF THE WIND MOST OF THE TIME.
    	
    			AGAIN GOOD LUCK!!!!!
    	JOEL
    
   

    re.0
    Are you working the shingles while they are cold? They bend easier
    and crack less while hot. Is the roof steeply pitched giving a steeper
    angle i.e. sharper bend? Either way cracking seems odd if they are
    warm enough to bend easy.
    
    -j
    

    No tricks that I know of...tapering the "back" (unexposed) ends
    of the pieces makes the job look better, but that's about it.
    I had trouble with my cap shingles cracking too, on the part of
    the roof that exceeds a 12/12 pitch, and like you I gooped on
    a little roofing cement.  About the best I can come up with for
    "tricks" are:
    1. warm weather
    2. bend slowly; maybe drape the shingles over the peak and let them
       sit in the sun for an hour or so to bend of their own accord.

	One finishing-up tip 
	acquired from a student of the Voc Tech school of Carpentry:

	After the last cap is nailed down, cover the nails with a little
	roofing tar.  Take two small pieces of shingles and scrape the top
	surfaces together over the tarred nails to add the "color" of the 
	shingle and hide the nails.


					-=Dennis

    
    Of course one other way around the whole situation is to put a ridge
    vent in place of the cap shingles...:^)

Ridge vents do not necessarily get you away from the caps.  The vents I used
require that you cover them with a row of shingles.  The good news is that the
vents blends in with the rest of the roof.

-mark

In the mid 40's my house roof was covered with Asbestos-concrete
shingles. They are about 1/4" thick, white in the center and covered
with a gray fret. 

Problem is the gray fret is coming off rapidly, making the roof
spotted white, etc.  It doesn't leak. 

Does anyone know if I can paint this roof, or what I can treat it with
to stop further shedding. 

Or, anyone want 2000 square feet of Asbestos-concrete?
    

    When you try removing those 2000 square feet of asbestos cement
    shingles, you will produce 2 zillion asbestos cement shards.  Be
    glad the roof lasted for 40 years.
    
    	Marlene, whose house was covered with the #$%^ stuff also in
                 the 1940's

    <SANITY CHECK>
    
    I am in the process of roofing my house and need a sanity check
    on my calculations of materials.
    
    The roof is 42'6" long and 15'6" from edge to ridge pole.  There
    are no dormers,valleys, etc. there are two chimneys and one stack
    pipe.
    
    Based on this I calculate the job would require 13 squares and 2
    bundles or 41 total bundles to complete.  Am I correct on this??
    
    I also estimate 15 pounds of 1 3/4" roofing nails would be required.
    
    How close am I on these calculations??
    
    Thanks in advance
    

    
    
     Sounds relatively close to me. Mine was 50' x 26' and I used ordered
     50 bundles. Ended up w/ around six left. Allow for scrap/mistakes
     as well. I got mine from Mullen Lumber in Sudbury. They bought
     back the bundles not used. See if you can get your supplier to
     agree to the same.
    

    I just completed roofing my house.   34.5' long and 17.5' from ridge
    to edge.  Total square footage = 1207.5 sq ft.  I used 37.5 bundles
    and approximately 15-20 pounds of 1"nails.  Best of luck with yours.
    Roofing is tough but very cost savings.
    

    I checked this weekend and a bundle covers 100 sq. ft.  At 3 bundles
    to a square, then a square covers 300 sq. ft.  

    ;-1 you may want to check again...I beleave a square covers a 100
    sq ft. each bundle covers 33 1/3 sq ft.
    
    Least I hope so as this is the base number for my calculations.

    .3
    One square covers 100 square feet.
    Normally there are 3 bundles to a square, the exception is when
    you are using architech shingles then there are 4 bundles to the
    square.

15 lbs of nails sounds a bit low.  If you don't care about having to go buy 
another 5lb box, then you could try it.  But first see how many 5lb boxes cost 
the same as a 50 lb box.  You may find that buying in 5lb increments, you can 
only get 25 lb for the price of a 50 lb box, in which case you're probably 
better off buying the 50 lb, having plenty, and saving the rest for a rainy day 
(inside :^)

Paul

    I have to strip a roof of shingles next month and was wondering
    what the disposal scenario is like for this stuff.  The first layer
    is shakes, the second layer is asphalt shingles.  Has anyone had
    to get rid of this stuff and wss it a hassle.  
    I'm wondering if I could sell the shakes as kindling wood for stoves?
    Just a thought.
    
    Jack

    I stripped my roof last year. Just got rid of the last of it two
    weeks ago. The trick...bag it and place it in the street for trash
    day.
    
    I don't know how the waste transfer sites deal with it, but could
    cost some bucks to dump it. I know some towns will charge based
    on the ton. Drive in, weigh vehicle. Dump, on the way out re-weigh
    vehicle and pay based on diff.
    

    Have you tried looking at the keyword directory listing note 1111.106,
    WASTE_DISPOSAL?  There are several notes about construction material
    disposal.  390 discusses options for shingle removal - costs, dumps in
    the area, firms which do the removal, etc.  There are other notes I did
    not check. 

    You didn't say where you were but this Saturday is being spent taking
    my recently stripped roof to the Nashua dump.  They accept shingles.

    George

    Though I am adding this much later than the original note I thought it
    might be helpful for someone -
    
    The Flood Co at 1-800-321-3444 developed a product called CWF which
    according to a roofing expert that I met recently does an excellent job
    of rejuvenating a cedar roof. Its especially good when the cedar has
    gotten old and brittle. Its suppose to extend the life for 5+ years.
    This stuff comes in a paint can and you paint it on like Thompson's
    Water Seal.
    
    Curt

    
    Our home is an L-shaped ranch where one roof meets the other forming
    valleys at the intersection.  We have received different opinions from
    roofers on whether to use flashing in the valleys, or weave the valleys
    with roofing shingles.  Currently we have flashing in the valleys with
    no shingles on top.  We are in the market for a new roof because there
    is water seeping in somewhere in the valleys causing a water line on
    the ceiling where the roofs meet.  Can anyone tell me why one would be
    better than the other ??  I believe the previous owner maintained the
    flashing by putting roofing tar on top from year to year -- he however
    failed to mention that to us -- is this normal maintenance for
    flashing?  
    
    Another question we have --
    We are currently planning to rip off the old shingles and replace with 
    new.  The front section of the L is a cathedral sealing, where the 
    extension has a closed-in insulated attic.  Has anyone used a
    waferboard insulation underneath the shingles -- the kind you would use
    on the outside of a house for residing (for instance).  Would this help
    in insulating the cathedral ceilings?  One of the roofers indicated
    that nailing into waverboard may cause the shingles to pop in time??
    Are there any recommendation for insulating the cathedral ceilings
    without covering the inside tongue and grove boards?
    
    
    All recommendations / warnings are welcome ??  We have had 3 roofers
    give us varying opinions --  
    
    Thanks,
    Karen

    My previous house in Upstate NY had a roof as you described and the way
    we handled the valleys was to use 90lb roofing rolls the same shades
    as the shingles.  Place one layer the full width from the top to the
    bottom and then cut about 12 inches off one side and the put a second
    layer over the first centered on the valley.  This provides double 
    protection of top quality material.  The first layer provides maximum 
    protection from ice buildup and the second is narrower to eliminate the
    obvious double layer.  We lived in that house for 5 more years and
    it showed no signs of cracking or wear.  
    
    We also used the 90 lb roofing at the bottom over the eves to prevent
    ice buildup as we had problems with that.  The 36inch width of the roll
    did the trick.  No more ice buildup problems and no more valley
    problems.
    
    Do not use metal in the valleys.  Aluminum and copper will expand in
    the heat and contract in the cold and in a few years will develop
    cracks that require roofing tar to be used every year.  The above
    worked.
    

The advice of the roofer I used to reroof my house was to avoid flashing,
as it would eventually develop leaks and corrode.  Weaving is fine as
is the method described in .1. 

				Steve

I don't think the method in .1 is instead of weaving, it is in addition to 
weaving.  Run that felt down the valley, and then weave the shingles over it.

In another life, I worked for Deck House, which builds top-grade post and beam
houses.  All custom mahogany trim, ash doors, cedar ceilings, etc.  To insulate
the roof, they put 2" celotex on top of the roof decking, with strapping around
the perimeter to provide a solid edge.  Then they put tarpaper and shingles 
directly over the celotex, using 3" roofing nails.  You have to be careful in
installation not to walk on your heels, and you have to be careful not to drive
the heads of the nails through the shingles, but the roof comes out fine.  
They've built thousands of them that way.

Paul

    	In my addition, the contractor used a product from Grace: Ice and
    Snow Shield. It's a thick flexible rubbery product that is self
    sealing and comes in 4' wide long rolls. A Cadillac job is to use this
    stuff under all the shingles, a Chevy job uses it in valleys and near
    the edges of the roof. I've seen it in good lumberyards. - Chris

    
    Many years back, my parents sold log homes.  As with the Deck House
    method, the roof decking was covered with 2" rigid foam insulation,
    then the shingles were fastened with 3" roofing nails.  I was recently
    helping my brother replace his roof (he lives in the log home my
    family built in 1973, and was installing a couple skylights and a
    dormer -- replaced all the shingles while he was at it...), and we
    used the method described in .3 by Paul Weiss.
    
    If you want the added insulation of the foam sheets, go for it -- it's
    been done all over.
    
    -- John

re: Note 3970.0 by MANANA::CHIASSON

>                          ... I believe the previous owner maintained the
>    flashing by putting roofing tar on top from year to year -- he however
>    failed to mention that to us -- is this normal maintenance for
>    flashing?  
      
      "Putting  roofing  tar  on  top" is almost never good practice for
      flashing or any other part of the roof.  It will  often  stop  the
      problem  for a while, but the problem usually comes back in a year
      or two or three.  What the "tar on top" DOES do is  cover  up  the
      problem  so  that it becomes nearly impossible to find and fix the
      leak.  Of course, in some cases this is nearly impossible  anyway.
      But  I'm  told that "tar on top" causes many roofs to be re-roofed
      that might have been repairable otherwise.
      
>     -< weaving vs. flashing in valleys >-
      
      There are three ways to treat valleys:
          
          Open Valley -- Closed Cut Valley -- Woven Valley
          
      The  Open Valley can be done with flashing, as in your example, or
      with roll roofing, as another reply suggests.
      
      In a Closed Cut Valley, the shingles from one side are laid accros
      the valley and 18-24" up the adjacent slop. This is sort-of like a
      woven  valley,  but  the shigles from the other side are NOT woven
      in.  Instead, they too are laid accross the valley and then cut in
      a straight line down the valley.
      
      In  a  woven  valley the shigles from both sides extend accros the
      valley and 18-24" up the opposite slope.  The are laid alternately
      so that they interleave and produce a woven pattern.
      
      Which  is  better?   Well,  if they're installed properly they all
      work, even with metal flasing in a open valley.  So  it  become  a
      matter  of which appearance you like and which type of valley your
      roofer feels most comfortable with. Another idea is to look around
      your neighborhood and see which kind of valley is used most often.
      
      With  an  open valley it is important to have the flashing or rool
      roofing extend far unough up under the shigles on both slopes.  It
      should  be  nailed  ONLY  at the edges, not down the middle of the
      valley. Actually, nails from the shingles that ovelap the flashing
      or rool roofing will hold it in place.
      
      For  a closed valey, basket weave or cut, it is important to put a
      continuous strip of either heavy felt or rool  roofing  under  the
      shingles.   This  provides  a "last resort" barrier for water that
      works under the shingles.

>   Would this help in insulating the cathedral ceilings?  

      You can add 1/2" or so of unsulation board, just like they do when
      a house is re-sided.  If you use 1/2" insulation board you  should
      be  able  to  use  roofing nails long enough to penetrate into the
      existing roof boards or sheathing.  If you use more that 1/2" this
      becomes a problem. With more that 1/2" you begin to ge problems at
      the edges of the roof too. It is possible to do a roof adding 2-4"
      of  insulation,  but it requires building up the edges of the roof
      with wood and covering the insualting with sheathing to which  the
      shingles are nailed.  
      
      Is   it  worth  it?   If  you're  existing  cathedral  ceiling  is
      uninsulated then it is probably worth at least the 1/2" treatment.
      You  say you have a "closed-in insulated attic".  This sounds like
      there is already some insulation. If this is the case I doubt that
      adding  insulation  on  the  roof is worth while, but if its cheap
      enough you might want to do the 1/2".
    
    
>    We have had 3 roofers give us varying opinions --  
      
      Typical. Ask for references of work they've done, preferably in or
      near you neighborhood. Check with the references. A decent roofing
      job  should  last 15-20 years at a minimum; 25-30 years or more is
      not uncommon.  A poor job will cost a lot more in repairs than  it
      saves  in  initial cost, so don't let cost be your only concern in
      choosing a roofer.

re:.6

>  It is possible to do a roof adding 2-4"
>  of  insulation,  but it requires building up the edges of the roof
>  with wood ...

As mentioned, this is easy - a matter of nailing down a strip of strapping.

>  ...and covering the insualtion with sheathing to which  the
>  shingles are nailed.  
 
No.  2" is easily done with 3" nails.  For more than 2", you would have to put
on sheathing.  I don't know of any 5" roofing nails.

BTW, the only reason 3" roofing nails are made in the first place is to nail
through 2" of insulation.

Paul

    When I did my roof a few years ago, I did the 90 lb. roll roofing
    bit down the valley (single layer) then wove the shingles over it.
    
    The "Fire and Ice" membrane stuff is *very* good (my opinion) but
    tends to be expensive ($1.00/lnear foot or so?).  I put that
    along the edges of the roof that had a history of ice dams.  It
    should also be good for running down a valley; you'd need to weave
    shingles over it afterwards.
    

Doesn't the insulation under the shingles above the decking defeat some
of the purpose of venting the roof and promote failure of the shingles
due to excessive heat?

-Bob

I haven't heard of shingles needing to breathe, and I know that houses with
the insulation under the shingles have been built without problems for at least
30 years.  I wouldn't expect heat would be all that much of a problem for
asphalt anyway.  Perhaps this idea is a layover from real cedar shingles, which
DO need to breathe?

Paul

Don't have any hard data for you Paul, just conversations with roofers and
some personal observation.  Seems that whenever I see a roof with the shingles
just curling off of it, there was a layer of shingles under them.  I attributed
that to heat build up.  But I haven't tracked any one roof for 20 years so
I can't speak with authority.  Several of the roofers I spoke were adament that
venting under the shingles prolonged their life.  That made a lot of sense to
me when I was speaking to them, so I didn't press for documentation.  Sure 
seems to me that heat would be the number one enemy of a roof shingles and 
I want to do all I can to help vent the surface under my own.  

On my own roof, the section that had better venting (Open attic with windoes
at each end) did not have curling shingles like the roof over the closed attic
did.   But I don't know how old that roof was.  Maybe nobody cares what a 
shingle does after 30 years but the vented portion certainly was in better
shape than the unvented.

If I had a cathedral ceiling though, I worry alot more about heat costs than
an extra 5 years out of my shingles so maybe this is a moot point.

-Bob

>Doesn't the insulation under the shingles above the decking defeat some
>of the purpose of venting the roof and promote failure of the shingles
>due to excessive heat?
      
      There are two possible reasons to vent a roof:
      
      1)  To  keep  the  shingles cooler so they last longer.  I have my
      doubts that there is much value to this,  but,  as  another  reply
      suggest, some roofers appear to think that their is.
      
      2)  To  prevent  condensation  and the damanger that the resulting
      moisture causes.  This IS necessaer IF there is air space anywhere
      between  the finished ceiling and the shingles.  However, if its a
      closed sandwich of  ridgid  insulation  beween  ceiling  and  roof
      sheating  then  there  is  no  air space in which condensation can
      occur.  This assumes that the installation is done well, with  the
      insulation tightly fit.

    
     I am planning on shingling a roof this weekend, the roof
     is 10'x30' How many bundles of shingles do I need to buy?
    
                                         Thanks in advance
                                                        Al

    Gee, it's been a long time - I believe a bundle is one-third
    of a "square"; the square covers 100 square feet.

Shingles are measured in squares - a square being 10' by 10'.  If your roof is
30' by 10', you need three square (notice you don't say "squares").  Most 
shingles come three bundles to the square, but some are four bundles to the
square.

Don't forget to add some extra for drip edge shingles or cap shingles.

Paul

    I find that if I allow 10% extra I have enough shingles for cap,
    drip edge, and waste. I just replaced my roof 3 weeks ago, and
    used ALL of the extra 10%, I didn't even have a full tab leftover.
    
    Kirk

    
    I replaced my roof in the summer of '89.  I calculated and followed
    the directions given by roofers and other contracters (I called'm
    looking for the info).    I still came up short and had to run the 
    the supply store and buy about 10 more bundles.  Why.. is what your
    probably thinking.   Because everybody was giving me the coverages
    for a shingle that shows 6".  All the directions and all specify a
    6" OR a 5" covering with the 5" being prefered (sure - they want you
    to buy more shingles).   So just remember that the 100 ft sq for the
    'square' (or three bundles) is at the 6" rate.   A little extra for 
    the waste your going to have at the end is always nice to calculate
    in.
    
    K-

    It's time for a new roof.  12/12 pitch, and I figure I'll need 17
    square.  With stripping the old roof (5 layers...that's right: 5...
    it's an old house), replacing any boards that need it, and adding a
    ridge vent, I was quoted $2200 for 30-year shingles.  The contractor
    said that 20-year shingles would save me roughly $200.
    
    Question:  Is there that much of a difference between 20, 25, or 30
    year shingles, other than thickness?  Am I better off with 30-year
    shingles for an additional $200, or should I just get the 20-year?
    
    Also, does color make that much of a difference?  Would white shingles
    keep the upstairs that much, if any cooler than black shingles?
    
    thanx.
    

    I don't know how much can be attributed to the shingles, but I had
    my house sided and a black roof put on (replacing a white-ish one).
    
    ...I had to buy AC! The house is MUCH warmer, even with the windows
    open...
    
    Edd

    My theory is, buy the best possible shingles.  Their slight additional
    cost is minimal.  The big cost is labor (roughly 90%, going by your
    numbers), so anything you can do to make the roof last longer is well
    worthwhile.  Getting your roof shingled is also a colossal pain.  It
    is well worth it (to me) to do everything I can to make it happen as
    infrequently as possible.
    
    There are those who argue payback of investment, and say that 20 years
    from now you probably won't be living there anyway so do it as cheaply
    as possible, etc.  I don't buy that line of reasoning; I favor doing as
    good a job as I can.  The country is filled with ticky-tacky houses,
    but mine doesn't have to be one.

    the numbers in .10 do not indicate that the labor cost is roughtly
    90%, only that the incremental cost of 20 to 30 yr shingles is $200.
    
    nitpickingly,
    ed

    Oh well...it was early in the morning.  The point still is, given
    the total cost of the project it doesn't cost much to get the best
    shingles you can buy, and if they really do last an additional
    10 years, that's 1/2 the total lifespan of a 20-year roof that
    you're getting for $200.
    
    (Now somebody will argue about how much interest $200 will earn
    over 20 years vs. paying it out up front on shingles; 
    I DON'T CARE!!!  ;-)  )

    
      I'm doing the garage this weekend (crossing my fingers on the
    weather) I got the Windseal 80's ($7.33/bundle at SL) they are
    20 year shingles, but again they are only going on a detached
    garage which has almost no shingles on it now (yup, a lot of
    sheathing to replace too).  I went with a lighter color due to
    the heat loading and am putting in ridge and soffit vents. It is
    a bit of overkill on a garage, but the interior get extremely warm
    and since we are doing boardwork anyway figured it was a small
    price added.
    
      If you have a house that is warm to begin with or have a 
    converted attic, you definitely would want light colored shingles,
    not to mention adequate ventilation.
    
           Mark

	Re .14: I estimate $200 after 20 years is worth $530.66, at 10% and
	5% inflation (i.e. at 5%).  $530.66 won't buy much roof.
	
	Also, if you use the best materials, you can sell the residual life
	and reduced headaches to the next guy buy increasing the price of
	your house.

	Regards, Robert.

    If anyone's interested, we went for 30 years on the shingles.  For an
    extra $200, it really wasn't that big a deal.  Besides, my wife thought 
    the 30-year shingle color(s) ("pecan") matched the house better than
    any of the 25 year shingles.
    

Last weekend's first-ever outing w/an airless sprayer was a revelation,
and successful in every respect but one.  As these things always seem to 
work, the side of the house with the most visible roof surface had the 
worst cross-winds and updrafts.

Result is a nice "early-winter" effect: white oil-base primer "frosting"
here and there where the overspray hit the black asphalt shingles.  

Before I try brushing the oversprays w/mineral spirits and possibly 
attacking the shingles, I'd like to hear from anyone who's succeeded 
against a similar problem.

Checked directory under "paint-exterior" and "roof;" nothing obvious 
there.  Thanks.

	tony

re: 4380.0 -< White primer spray blown onto roof shingles >-


>Before I try brushing the oversprays w/mineral spirits and possibly 
>attacking the shingles, I'd like to hear from anyone who's succeeded 
>against a similar problem.

    Based on some personal past experience, instead of trying to remove
    the paint, how feasible would it be to "pain over it" with an
    asphaltum based paint ?
    
    That Roofing Supply place ought to be able to have some (Allds St
    Nashua ?) ...
    
    The "tar" used to flash around chimneys is usually asphaltum based. 
    
    Be sure to tell the sales person what you're trying to do. Asphaltum
    will alwas bleed through white paint, so i assume it should make a 
    good cover up. I wouldn't sue spirtits on Asphalt shingles, because
    Asphaltum is mineral (oil) based, and spirits wil dissolve asphaltum
    (that's what used to clean up after).
    
    Be cautious with Asphaltum. Its environemtally ok, but makes a real
    mess of stuff like painted surfaces, hair ..
    
    And .. uh .. don't pick a windy day .. some might splatter on your
    neighbors house ...
    
    Bob
    

    Is it really visible or is it like a pimple that only your mother can
    see?  If the latter, don't mess with it.
    
    Craig

    .2:
    
    >>    Is it really visible or is it like a pimple that only your mother can
    >>    see?  If the latter, don't mess with it.
    
    	I'd describe it as "painfully visible."
    
    	Actually, I had a suggestion given me, which seems to make sense.
    Simply spray over the primer w/paint to match the shingles.  As long 
    as the primer holds to  the shingles, the dark paint is w/it. If the
    primer lets go, the original shingle is revealed anyway.
    
    Tried it in one area already (actually dark grey, not black).  For now,
    seems OK.  Maybe I'll report back every five years or so. :-)
    
    	tony

    Another pointer in doing ridge caps - make sure to nail the ridge cap
    so that the nail will hit the plastic strip in back.  This will help
    keep the ridge cap better in place.
    
    -George

    I looked but couldn't find anything on changeing roof color so here
    goes.
    
    I have a five year old home with an gold/brown colored roof that I
    hate.  Its been a source of agravation to me because I can't find any
    color combination to paint the house that looks good to me.  Iv'e
    tried various combinations of house, trim and shutter colors but
    nothing works for me.  I have finally decide to change the roof color.
    
    Is there any way of doing this short of putting new shingles on??
    
    Has anyone tried painting or putting some sort of coating over an
    exsisting roof? What were the results and were you happy??
    
    Thanks in advance for your comments
    Bruce May
    

    I have heard of a product that allowed you to change the color
    a sort of paint for asphalt shingles never used it though.
    You might call a roofing supplier and ask wether they have heard of
    doing such a thing.
    
    -j
    

Hi.

	I have a 150 year old barn with a leaky roof. The current layer of
asphault shingles is curling and my guess is its 25 to 30 years old. it sits on
at least one older layer of asphault singles. The roof substrate is a mixture
of mostly original 20 inch wide pine boards and various other pieces of wood
which have replaced rotted out pieces of the original over time. It looks like 
this substrate will hold nails in all but a few places were there are gaps 
between the wood and what looks like thick paper between the wood and the first 
layer of covering, but the original planks are very dried out. The barn is 
about 35 by 35 with (I think) a 14 pitch.

	I have gotten three estimates for repair. The first estimate was $1300
for a simple recovering without removing any existing layers. The second
estimate was $2600 for recovering after removal of the existing two layers and
replacing a few weaker looking substrate pieces where the contractor felt nails
would not hold (including garbage removal). The third contractor I talked to
hasn't gotten back to me yet with numbers, but wants to quote on two possible
choices: total replacement of the existing roof with plywood, or installing a
layer of plywood over the existing substrate after removal of the covering
layers. Whatever it is, he indicated that I couldn't afford it. All contractors
quoted standard 25 year asphault shingle, and all are bonded and insured.

	I'd like to avoid the total replacement if its at all prudent. I plan
on staying in this house for many years, and even if I weren't I'd want to do
the "right thing". All I want is to have a dry barn so I can store stuff in it.
I like the old wide pine planks where they are for asthetic reasons. The roof
and barn structure are very solid (timber frame), there is no deflection, and
the supporting joists are good solid 2X8's which are really 2x8 < 2 ft apart;
so I'm confident that the roof could easily support the weight of another layer
of asphault. Thing is, the latter two contractors told me its illegal to add a
covering over more than one existing layer. My questions to you are...


   o	What would you do?

   o	What exactly are the laws in Massachusetts regarding overlayering
	(I live in West Boylston, Worcester Co., if that matters)?

   o	If I chose to recover over the existing layers with a 25 year roof,
	regardless of legality, how many fewer years could I expect the roof to
	last? 

   o	Is it unusual that these three estimates came in so different from each 
	other?

Thanks in advance for your help.

First of all, many communities don't allow more than two layers of roofing -
I know Nashua, NH is one such.  Check with your city/town building department.

Second, it's not surprising that you got such different quotes - the same
happened to me when I asked for roofing bids - each contractor wanted to
do things differently.  The second bid ($2600) specifies a course of action
I personally would be more comfortable with.

			Steve

>The current layer of asphalt shingles ... sits on at least one older layer
>of asphalt singles. 
>
>The roof substrate is a mixture of mostly original 20 inch wide pine boards
>and various other pieces of wood which have replaced rotted out pieces of
>the original over time.  ... this substrate will hold nails in all but a
>few places ... but the original planks are very dried out. 
>
>I have gotten three estimates ... The first estimate was $1300 for a simple
>recovering without removing any existing layers. 

     Two roofs is the max.  What this contractor is proposing to do is 
against code.

>The second ... was $2600 for recovering after removal of the existing two
>layers and replacing a few weaker looking substrate pieces where the
>contractor felt nails would not hold (including garbage removal). 

     Since both roofs have to come off this is an ideal time to fix up
whats underneath.  What the contractor proposes doing is very reasonable. 
For the size of the roof, the disposal of the old material and the amount
of work to be done, this is a good price.  Maybe too good.

>The third contractor I talked to hasn't gotten back to me yet with numbers,
>but wants to quote on two possible choices: total replacement of the
>existing roof with plywood, or installing a layer of plywood over the
>existing substrate after removal of the covering layers. Whatever it is, he
>indicated that I couldn't afford it. 
>   o	Is it unusual that these three estimates came in so different from each 
>	other?

     This is the standard way of saying 'I really don't want this job, but 
if you're stupid enough to pay me this much, I'll do it.'

>I'd like to avoid the total replacement if its at all prudent. I plan on
>staying in this house for many years, and even if I weren't I'd want to do
>the "right thing". 

>... The roof and barn structure are very solid ... I'm confident that the
>roof could easily support the weight of another layer of asphalt. Thing
>is, the latter two contractors told me its illegal to add a covering over
>more than one existing layer. 

     Doing the right and legal thing conflicts with the second of these 
paragraphs.  Building codes exist to guide people who think they know what
they're doing but don't.

    If you're in West Boylston, give John Wilson a call - I think he's
    now your town building inspector, in fact.  A very nice guy.  He
    also does good work.
    
    Boy, do I know about what you are looking at, having looked at exactly
    the same thing on two different houses.  
    
    Non-negotiable point #1: you have GOT to take off the two layers that
    	are on there already.  Leaving them on is Not An Option.
    
    When you have done that, I *strongly* suspect you will discover that
    the existing sheathing boards are total garbage.  At the *very* least,
    they will probalby require extensive selective replacement unless you 
    opt to cover the whole mess with plywood, which I am not too thrilled
    by.  And once you start replacing boards, it is going to start to look
    like a patchwork job from the bottom.
    
    Personally, I would go to a local sawmill and buy rough-sawn lumber,
    tear the old roof off completely, right down to the joists, and
    replace with the rough-sawn lumber.  Having done this twice, I know
    it works well, especially with older roofs that have more or less
    random joist spacing that may or may not match the 8' width of a
    piece of plywood.  The appearance will also be a lot more in keeping
    with an old barn, although the boards may not be as wide as what you
    have now.
    
    I also dislike plywood for roofs because I have found (from taking
    shingles off a plywood roof) that they can hold water under the
    shingles.  Plywood, with its glue, is almost totally 100% waterproof.
    I think separate boards are MUCH better for a roof, giving the roof
    a chance to dry out if any water happens to get under the shingles
    from ice dams, wind-driven rain, condensation, or whatever.

RE: .3 

	Thanks for reference and reply, that is very helpful. I also read
though some other discussions in this conference (hard to find though they
were). See notes around 124.12 (the perils of plywood). 

RE: .2

>     Two roofs is the max.  What this contractor is proposing to do is 
>against code.

I wasn't sure. 

>     Doing the right and legal thing conflicts with the second of these 
>paragraphs.  Building codes exist to guide people who think they know what
>they're doing but don't.

I posed the question not sure whether it was legal nor caring -- my
hypothetical question remains unanswered: What would be so bad about putting on
a third layer of asphalt given the structure could take it? The building code 
may very well have been written to protect people like me (who aren't sure what 
they're doing) from themselves, but that is besides the point; I have a right 
to question whether the code makes sense. If it doesn't, I have a right to 
challenge it, as well. I probably wont though; who around here has the money to 
bring suit against the state of Massachusetts?  :-)

Given what I've read in here this morning about plywood, though, I would
venture to answer my own question: More than two layers would mean that
moisture is more likely to get trapped between layers (just as with the
plywood), causing accelerated rot from the inside out. This is only a guess.
THIS IS ONLY A GUESS. We now return you to our regularly scheduled program of 
Home maintenance and repair...

:-)

Thanks.

Mike

    The three "rule" is strictly a matter of roof loading. The code states
    a certain minimum rafter/spacing...2x6 on 16 inch spacing for typical
    snow loads and shingle loads. Three is just too many for safety.
    
    Saying that, I'm sure that there is a large safety factor built in.
    My roof had three layers, with 4x4's spaced every 2 feet. The wood is
    oak...but.
    
    I now have one layer with plywood (1/2 inch) under. Adding plywood for
    a new nailing surface works fine.
    
    Marc H.

I'm in the same situation, barn with 2 layers of leaky roof.  I patched the
roof a couple years ago, the patches held, the rest of the roof didn't...
It failed in several spots.

The difference is, first I plan to do the work myself, and second my roof is
nearly flat.  I'm going to strip the roof, repair any rotten spots with 
rough-cut 1x8s (which is what the roof deck was originally made of), and redo
it using double coverage roll roofing.

I definitely suggest stripping the existing roof.  I'd replace any bad boards
rather than remove the roof deck and redo it in plywood.  Perhaps you can get
the lumber ahead of time and leave it in the weather for the "aged" look? :-) 

Plywood over the existing deck is another good idea. 

-Mike

    Plywood over the old boards is what I did, and it makes for a nice
    compromise....nice look with good support.
    
    Marc H.

>I posed the question not sure whether it was legal nor caring -- my
>hypothetical question remains unanswered: What would be so bad about putting on
>a third layer of asphalt given the structure could take it? The building code 
>may very well have been written to protect people like me (who aren't sure what 
>they're doing) from themselves, but that is besides the point; I have a right 
>to question whether the code makes sense.

	    How old is the barn, 150 years?  Let's pretend we're a roof.
	    Pick up a bundle of shingles (grunt).  Okay, now pick up 
	another bundle of shingles.  That's for two layers.  Now pick up 
	a third bundle of shingles.  You are a very strong (roof) person 
	if you can handle this.  
	    If you're still standing, that's very impressive.  Your roof
	will probably sag quite noticably with 3 layers... if it doesn't
	collapse from the weight of all those shingles.  Now add on say
	6 inches of wet snow.  I wouldn't want to go into your barn.

					Tim

re .8:

Well, how about that plastic stuff that they make out of recycled VT100 cases?
They mentioned it in a recent issue of Digital This Week.  It comes in big
sheets and is much lighter than asphalt shingles -- 80 lbs/square sticks
in my mind.

    
    	Re: .9
    
    	It might be lighter, but adding a layer to it is _still_
    incremental weight on the roof.  You could take a 1 lb/square material
    and eventually collapse the roof by adding enough layers of it...
    
    							-craig

When I got my quotes the major difference in price was not do to their liability
insurance but what kind of workman's comp they paid.  Roofers in NH pay .50 on
each dollar for workman's comp.  So you hire a contractor who also does a
roof occasionally and gee, he can do the job for less because he only pays
.16 or .23 on the dollar.  That explained why roofers came in at $5k and the
contractor was at $3k and change.  But then the contractor did a lousy job
of covering before rain ...

Still haven't decided what to do. I might just end up doing what the second
contractor in .0 quoted, but I've also explored the total replacement option.
What I've been thinking about lately is removing the whole roof and replacing
it with what was there before (rough cut pine): it worked for 150 years, so why
go and do something different? The whole project has pretty much been put on
hold because DEC stock is at $38 per share, so I'm seriously considering John
Dymon's suggestion of throwing a big tarp over it for a year or two. 

1" rough cut pine from local sawmills turns out to be cheaper than plywood,
fwiw, and one side-planed is about the same price as �" plywood. The way it is
cheaper is by not specifying a minimum board width so the mill doesn't have the
added cost of sorting what comes off the saw. You have to buy a little more,
but it's apparently worth it.  Some mills have the stuff in stock, and some
will rip-to-order.  Its kinda fun dealing directly with the guys who will be
actually making the boards, though I have yet to find out if I can use rough
cut per building codes. (here we go again). 

Speaking of codes, here's a reply to .8, Tim Cassidy...

I repeat: I have no hesitation in believing my roof could support a third layer
of asphalt. My house roof �" slate, which was layed over an older layer of
shake, and the house roof is the same construction/material/span as the barn
roof, so I'm hardly worried that another layer of asphalt on the barn roof plus
several feet of snow would buckle it. A slate shingle is an order of magnitude
heavier than an asphalt shingle, and the house roof, after 100 yeears of this
burden, is totally straight, except for the part which supports 25 feet of
suspended brick chimney (the lower, inside section of the chimney was removed 
about ten years ago) where there its defintiely buckling. 

	Tough roof!  

					TIM

>	Tough roof!  

I'll say. I fergot to mention that the one part of the slate-covered roof which
is holding up a large piece of cut_off_from_below chimney is also supporting
two slate covered dormers.  Its sagging pretty significantly; I'd say the
maximum deflection if I put a string across it would be nearly a foot over
about thirty feet of span. I plan to rip out the chimney and put a skylite in
its place pretty soon... 

Ah, the pleasures of old home ownership...   :-)

    I'd be *amazed* if a building inspector complained about using
    rough-sawn lumber for a roof.  Having done it on two houses
    now, I can assure you that it works perfectly fine.  And, as
    you noticed, it's cheaper than plywood. It is also very useful
    to be able to buy lengths other than 8', as the roof rafter
    spacing may work out so you'd need plywood 8'3" long....

    <-- re:
    
    		Unless of course its like up here, and all lumber 
    	must be graded.  Used to be, if I owned my own property
    	and milled my own wood I could use it.  Now I can't even
    	build an out-building using my own timber unless I have
    	an engineer grade it.
    
    		Makes me sick, 'specially when you go and buy
    	the garbage at a lumber-yard that has been stamped.  I wouldn't
    	build a doghouse with some of this junk...but thats another story.
    
    
    					-Ian

    I have looked in the "ROOF" keyword directory and have not found any
    prior note addressing the following:
    
    
    CEDAR SHAKE ROOFS FOR HISTORIC HOUSES (New England) -------
    
    I would like to install a cedar shake roof on an historic house and
    would like to initiate this note to compile all info on this topic. I
    have always wanted a roof of this type as I have lived in several
    historic houses and have never had the chance or the dollars to tackle
    a project of this kind.
    
    It seems that houses that are not historic and in upper price ranges of
    over $400K may also have a shake roof because they really can set your
    home apart. What do you think?
    
    I did see "This Old House" when they covered this topic, but it was
    quite some time ago and I have forgotten the details.

    Are you talking about cedar SHAKES or cedar SHINGLES?  (Shingles are
    sawn, shakes are split.)
    

    Re: .1
    
    I am glad that you've asked me to clarify the Shingle Vs. Shake issue.
                                      =============================  
    
    I have been under the impression that a 1780's era house would have
    used a split shake that is thicker than a modern day shingle, and with
    a much courser surface texture. I think that a cedar shake would be
    more appropriate for my purposes.
    
    Slate may have also been used, but I have not thought about using that
    material, so its an open issue.

Lots of up-scale homes in California are/used-to-be built using Cedar Shakes,
mine included.  Several cities/counties have/are recently revising building
codes to prevent there use in high fire hazard areas (typically mountains).
Did you catch any of the Oakland Hills fire storm on the tube?  Many had Cedar
Shake roofs.  If I had my roof to do over, it would be with the new lifetime
tile.  For you restoration however, Cedar Shakes would probably be super!  They
are relatively straight forward to install also.  A good nail gun would help
also.

John.

  Shingles are shingles are shingles, at least in times past; there was
no such thing as a 'shake'. In fact, there were regulations regarding
their thickness, length, width, and texture during the colonial time.

  Only the most rustic house, where the occupants couldn't afford any-
thing else, would ever be covered with shingles having poorly finished
surfaces (marks left from riving). The surfaces were finished smooth,
usually with a drawknife or slick.

  The wood of choice was white cedar, with white pine and spruce popular
as cedar resources were exhausted.

  If you're after the look of true colonial shingles, sawn shingles won't
cut it. Your best bet is to find someplace/someone who'll take the time
to split and finish them by hand. Be prepared to spend $$$$ or learn how
to use a froe and drawknife.

  I won't comment on the 400k+ houses which attempt to recall the past by
slapping on wood shingles to achieve the 'colonial' look.

  Patrick

    My parents live in a neighborhood (So. NH) where there were rules about
    the roofs that could go on the houses - all had to have wood shingles.
    After ten years my parents had to replace it - many neighbors in about
    the same time frame found that they had to replace theirs. They all got
    together and changed the covenant to allow a fancy asphalt roof that
    retains the look of shingles. In the next few years, I've noticed many
    more of these houses having the shingles taken off and replaced with
    the asphalt type. 

    Big bucks initially to install them, big bucks to have them taken off,
    and more money to have a longer term solution installed.

    FWIW

    JR

    Patrick (.4) is a walking encyclopedia on this stuff...I'm sure he
    has the definitive answer.
    
    At a practical level, I'd personally go with sawn cedar shingles 
    as the best approximation available at a semi-reasonable price.  
    How old is your house?  Even if it's from the hand-shaved shingle
    era, it may be more to the point to use a later date, say 1820
    or something, as your target date for restoration style.  (Were
    they sawing shingles by 1820, Patrick?)
    
    Then there is the fire issue...does your insurance company have 
    anything to say about it?  You may find your rates going up if
    you put on a wood roof.
    
    

    RE: .5
    
    I'm sure that the failure of wood shingles is covered elsewhere here...
    but....the failures that I have heard are due to laying the shingles
    flat against plywood. The old time method was to space them out
    using a furring strip, so that they could dry out after a rain.
    When done *correctly* they last at least 40 years.
    
    Marc H.

  re: .5 (Steve)

  I don't know the exact date of the invention of the shingle mill, but
I'd guess it was around the time you mention (1820), since the circular
saw made its appearance in this country some 20 years earlier and it was
only a matter of time before its application to shingle sawing was made.
However, it may have been earlier still, when you consider water-powered
reciprocating or 'upright' sawmills were operating in this country by the
1630's; that some ingenious yank found a method to cut them using a similar
setup. 

  re: .6 (Marc)

  Fastening shingles to furring strips was not the traditional way of doing
it. Originally, the shingles were nailed directly to boarding. A few houses
had the shingles nailed to the purlins, where the roof never used boarding,
but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. 

  The split shingles were durable because they were thicker, typically 1/2" 
- 3/4" thick at the butt edge, than those of today.

  re: basenoter

  If you do buy sawn shingles, be sure to buy ones that are quarter sawn
and not plain/bastard sawn. Also, buy a grade finished smooth on one side.
Rough faced wood absorbs water better than smooth faced wood does, which is
less than ideal for a roof. BTW, Audel's Carpenters and Builders Guide is
probably your best source for the how to's of doing it.

  Patrick

    Re: .8
    
    Patrick, 
      The furring strips just help to keep the underside of the shingles
    dry. In the past, the lack of roof insulation allowed the shingles to
    dry out, even if nailed right down. Hey, what ever technique you
    want... as long as the shingles can dry out, they will last much
    much longer than 7 years.
    
    Marc H.

    Our home in Oklahoma had a wood shingle roof. The base was furing
    strips. You could into the attic and see light from the gaps in
    the shingles.
    
    Slate roofs have the longest longivity and wood shingles are next.
    
    I was always concerned about fireworks season in Oklahoma..
    

    
    	Well, we just replaced our cedar shingles this past month.  We
    were told that they would last 50 years or so.   Only 20 years later
    the shingles were worn down (my son blames the acid rain).  Many
    had started to fall off, as the nails were rusting off.
    
    	I did like the look of the cedar, but don't want to have to
    replace them again.  So asphalt (sp) shingles that look similar,
    but not exact.
    
    	Also I remember putting the cedar on was very time consuming,
    two or three nails in each shingle,  making sure the spaces did 
    not align.
    
    	Linda
    

I bought a  house last year that had cedar shingles installed over plywood about
5 to 6 years ago. The roof still looks in good shape, no deterioration, color
is now a nice light grey. From what I've read, here in the northeast, 
installation over plywood is acceptable. Southern climates should have cedar
over fir strips.
The roof makes my pseudo colonial really stand out against the other homes.


Ross

I don't have a cedar roof, but I've been researching wood preservative products.
Thus the following naive question:

When you have a cedar shake roof, do you just leave it?  Or do you have to
put preservative on it every few years.

I would think that would be a pain.

Elaine

    RE: .13
    
    Cedar should not need a wood preservative
    
    Marc H.

    What is the best way to treat a roof for Lichens, moss, or other plant
    or fungicide growth?

    More Sun? 
    
    Wouldn't want to use chemicals.
    
    Marc H.

prune your trees?

    
    RE: .11
    
    	Did you consider a Permatek solution?  They're a 50 year roof,
    at least.  They're made in Albany, Ore.
    
    KMP

    Please explain what a "Permatek" solution is, and what it entails. 
    
    Also does anyone know about the new shingles from the south that are
    made of yellow pine (which is quite hard) BUT THEY ARE PRESSURE TREATED
    AND ARE GUARANTEED FOR 50 YEARS OR SO ???

    Has anyone had a problem with roof shingles splitting ?  My house was
    built 7 years ago and has multi color shingles.  On the front side of
    the house the roof is perfect, in the back several of the shingles have
    split in half, when it is real cold you can see a crack from the bottom
    tile to the top of the roof in a few places.  A roofer came to inspect
    before attaching a sun room and recommended that the roof be fixed 
    first.  He also stated that lately he has had to work on many houses
    with the multi-color tiles (only 6 - 7 years old) splitting, that they
    were defective from the start.  Anyone else have this problem ?
    

Yep.  The house is six years old, and within the last year or two,
we've been getting water stains during heavy storms.  Finally had a 
roofer come out to take a look, and then after he checked it, he asked
how comfortable I felt on ladders ;-)  Went up with him onto the 
roof, and he started pointing out all the cracks on the south-facing
side of the house.  These were not the multi-colored shingles, but
were fiberglass (I suspect the color really doesn't have much to do
with it).  The contracter who built the house is out of the business, 
and we have no idea of the brand of shingles he used.  We decided to redo
the whole roof (they'd messed up the flashing around the skylights too,
on the other side of the house).   We did the whole roof, because this 
wasn't just a crack here and a crack there, there were cracks everywhere
you looked, some running from shingle to shingle down the roof slope.
Sounds weird I know, but I took pictures.  The only good news (aside from
having a new roof that doesn't leak ;-) is that home owners insurance
paid quite nicely.  Not for the shingles, but to re-paint the water
stains inside the house.  So, not a total lose.  Now we have a new roof
with 20 year shingles, a new roof vent (the old one was pretty poor),
reflashed skylights, and a painter coming to redo the insides.
We've also kept a pack of the shingles left over from the roofing so if
these go early, we know who to pick on!

PeterT

    re: 0,1
    Is the reason that these shingles cracked because they were 
    fiberglass or just that they were defective. Can you give 
    more info on them. I, for one, would always go with a brand name 
    of asphalt shingles, but still, it seems kinda strange that the 
    fiberglass ones cracked like that... 
    
    /BD 

>    Is the reason that these shingles cracked because they were 
>    fiberglass or just that they were defective. Can you give 
>    more info on them.

	I'm not really sure.  Given what the roofer was saying, they
were defective.  But perhaps there is something inherent in the fiberglass
shingles that make them more apt to crack due to the normal stress(or
slightly above normal for the last few years) of weather in the
North East.  I don't remember exactly, but I think the roofer mentioned
he had seen more of this type of failure in recent years with the
fiberglass shingles.

PeterT

    
    Ok, let me file this, "No Fiberglass Roof Shingles", ok got it....
    Thanks.
    
    /BD
    

    
    Hi Bob,
    
      I think all shingles are fiberglass based now. (They used to be
    paper based)
    
    				Kenny

    
    
    
    I had exactly the same problem mentioned in .0. My house is 9 years old
    and had several large cracks, some running for 10 feet or more, on the
    south side of my house. On the North side of the house the shingles
    were in good shape. Also, I had a garage and breezeway addition put on
    just 5 years ago and the garage had some small cracks starting.
    
    Since I bought the house new, I knew that the shingles were
    made by GAF. I had a couple roofer look at the situation and both of
    them told me that GAF had a manufacturing problem in the 80s (cold
    nights followed by the warm sun in the morning on the south side of the 
    house caused the cracks) and a lot of people had filed claims against
    GAF. The shingles were guarenteed for 20 years.
    
    So I called Chagnon Lumber in Nashua and described the problem. They
    gave me GAF's 1-800 claims phone number. I then called GAF and
    described the problem. They in turn sent me a claim form.
    
    I followed the GAF process for filing shingle claims. This involved:
    
    	1). removing several cracked shingles and sening them to GAF
    	    for their inspection (they wanted to make sure they were
    	    in fact GAF shingles). I did this myself.
    
    	2). taking pictures of the roof where the cracks were.
    
    	3). filling out numerous forms. I also needed to prove I was the
    	    original owner since their warranty only covers the original
    	    owner. I sent them a copy of the deed.
    
    	4). lots of waiting (the whole process took 4 months).
    
    
    In the end, I believe GAF was very fair with me. They gave me vouchers
    which I traded for shingles at a GAF dealer. They gave me enough
    shingles to cover everything... house, breezeway, and garage. They
    also gave me 50/hour labor to do the re-shingling job. The cash was
    prorated based on the years of service I received from the shingles.
    
    The cash amount was $850. I hired someone to removce the old shingles,
    install all flashing and ice and water shield, and install new 30 year
    GAF TimberLine shingles (these are really nice and thick!) for 1850.
    I cleaned up the old shingles and nails and took them to the dump.
    
    I now have a new 30 year roof over my entire house
    for around $1000. I thought this was a good price. Of course had the
    original shingles not be defective, I wouldn't of spend any money
    but I am quite happy with the new roof. Also, part of the $1000 out
    of pocket money was to upgrade from a 20 shingle to a 30 year. The
    architectual shingles really look nice!
    
    Maybe it would be worth finding out who made your shingles and file
    a claim. There is a fair amount of hassel involved but it's better
    than paying for everything out of your own pocket.
    
    Hope this helped.
    
    jim
                                                      

re -1

This is what I would have done, if I had an idea of who the manufacturer 
of the shinges was.  We did buy the house new, and it's possible that the
info is around someplace, (maybe on the backside of the shingles themselves?)
but we did recoup some money through the insurer, so it was not a total 
loss.

PeterT

    There is an article in "The Journal of Light Construction" outlining
    the recent problem with premature failure of fibergass roof shingles. 
    There are a number of vendors involved.  Unfortunately, I don't have a
    the exact date of the issue but I believe it was in the spring of 1993. 
    There have also been articles on this subject in "Builder Magazine,"
    and "Remodeler Magazine."  
    
    I believe the article in "The Journal of Light Construction"  explained
    how to file a claim under warranty.
    
    Good Luck.
    
    John C.
    

    
    Some of the houses in our neighborhood are experiancing the same
    problem. The houses were built in 1986. Some of the houses have GAF
    and some Bird. I have Bird, but the ones that have GAF are going
    through the process of filing claims with GAF.

    Whats the best/easiest way to remove shingles for when you plan to
    reroof ie you don't care about the old ones ?  Someone suggexted
    a pitchfork makes the task easier...
    
               Dean

    re: .7
    
    Basically, it's a hard job.  I'm not sure if there's an easy way,
    but some ways may be less hard than others.  I've used a narrow,
    flat shovel.  I've heard of people using ice chippers, etc.  
    Anything that will slide under the shingles and lift them up.  
    There will be nails that don't come out that you'll have to pull
    with a hammer.
    
    I think it's worth going to a little trouble to put down a tarp
    or something on the ground to make the cleanup easier.  Otherwise,
    you'll be picking up bits of shingle and random nails for months,
    even years.

    
    Flat, squared nosed shovel.
    
    Also, resist the urge to fling the shingles down from the roof. Some
    will undoubtedly scuff the house and the marks they leave behind are
    a real pain to remove.  If possible build a plywood chute.... if you
    are removing a large section, consider a chute into a small rented 
    dumpster. The weight of roofing shingle debris adds up fast.

    
    Back up the dumptruck or dumpster to the roof and save a lot of time
    in clean up off the ground.
    
    Then get yourself a roofstriper tool.  its look like a flat plate
    with serated edges on a long handle.  What you do is fire it under 
    the shingles and pry them up.  I made my own and done a 50X24
    ranch in an hour.   I think their about $10..?
    
    JD

>>    Then get yourself a roofstriper tool.  its look like a flat plate
>>    with serated edges on a long handle.  What you do is fire it under 
>>    the shingles and pry them up.  I made my own and done a 50X24
>>    ranch in an hour.   I think their about $10..?

Only $10.00?  Hmm, the ones I've seen roofer used looked like they would cost a
bit more.  They are designed to be able to be hammered in either direction. 
The idea is you hammer it under a hard to get shingle (like one near an A-frame
cape front window), then slide it over so its above the nail head, then hammer
it back down the "hooks" on the angle down off the blade.

		Side view

   Hit here to insert =>    XXXXXXXXXXXXXX    <= hit here to remove
                                          X
                                           X
                                            X_________________________________

		View of blade end from top:

              XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
              X   XXXXXXX   X   <= nails get hooked under here
                  XXXXXXX  
                  XXXXXXX
                  XXXXXXX
                  XXXXXXX

Neat little tool, but I don't like doing roofing... :-)

bjm

    
    The type described in .11 is commonly used in the UK for removing
    slate and tile that is intended for re-use.  The purpose is to
    cut the nail and allow you to slide out the whole slate or pantile.
    
    I'd guess that for stripping you just need something like .10
    describes to rip off as quick as possible.
    
    Incidentally, the one that I've used had a knuckle guard.  The
    surface of the shingles will strip your knuckles pretty fast too.
    
    
                                    
    

    
    they look somethig like...
    
    		/\/\/\/\/\/\	teeth
    		|          |                           side view
      		|	   |    flate plate                     	
    		|----||----|                                    /
    		-----||-----    45' heal                       /
    		     ||                                       /
                                handle                       /
                                                          -===
    
    picture that...

    re last HQ $18 works good  if any one can strip the other side
    thats 1/2 of my Ranch in an hour I will gladly give them my
    roof strpping tool
    
               Dean

    
    What would I want with another tool?  Now maybe it
    you had mentioned a case of two of some good brewskis...! :)::):):):)
    
    JD

    RE: .14
    
    Dean,
    
    how big is your ranch, and how long did it take you to strip the roof?
    I've got a couple of soon-to-be-former friends coming next weekend to
    re-shingle my roof (1 layer over a board roof, 17+ yrs old). If I can
    pre-strip at least one side in advance, amd check/replace damaged wood
    as needed, it would definately speed things up, not to mention reducing
    the size of the big-time favor I'll owe them...:^)
    
    Come to mention it, how long did it take to do the water barrier &
    shingles?
    
    Looking forward to next week...*NOT*
    
    Freddie

    My roof is approximately 1800 sq ft.  So far I have done 1300 sq
    ft and some was single layer some was double layer over planks...
    I would guess the first layer is 50+ years old with the second 25+
    years old.  I had to replace some plywood over a 3 season porch.
    So far I've got about 60 man/hours into it.  It took 2 people 1
    day to strip and dispose 13 square (some 2 layers) and replace 
    plywood the next day I laid the ice and water barrier, felt, drip 
    edge, and cut a new bathroom vent (the old one tied in to a kitchen
    vent) and lay new shingles on about � of 1300 sq ft.  The last day
    finished up the shingling for the 1300sq ft and step flashed an
    area where the 3 season porch roof meets the attached garage roof
    and cement around the chimney.  The areas with one layer were easy
    to strip the two layer portions were hard and time consuming.  It 
    took me a while to lay all the ice and water barrier (I used 2.5 rolls
    so far) I used double width at the bottom edge of the attached garage
    and quad width to cover the entire 3 season porch roof (low slope)
    I cut the membrane into 1/3s and laid it all along the rake under the
    drip edge (over at the bottom of the roof) laying that stuff down takes
    some time too.  Hopefully I'll be able to complete the rest this
    weeknd.
    
                             Dean 
                                 

    
    No wounder the 2 layered areas are difficult to strip.  
    Theres twice as many nails!!! :)   And i'd even bet that
    they used exxxtttrraaaa long nails!
    
    jd

Is there anything to be gain by stripping off
the first layer of roofing?

I know some towns allow for two layers but the idea
of laying shingles over old shingles is not very
appealing.

Gim

    
    Personally, I don't like the idea of two layers ...If the existing
    shingles are cupped (*not flat*) then the new layer will be lumpy, etc.
    Also, I've heard mention (in here somewhere) that most or all shingle
    manufacturers only warranty their products if it's the only layer.
    
    /Charlie
    

    
    I forgot to mention the extra weight of two layers too.
    
    /Charlie

	Well one benifit of multiple layers is that if the top most
	layer fails, the roof may not leak.  At least this was the
	situation w/my house.  On one part of the roof there was
	three layers of asphalt shingles and under that probably the
	original layer of wood shingles.  The top layer failed (deteriated
	shingles in my front yard all the time) yet I never found a
	leak.  Of course my rafters could support the enourmous weight
	(old house), today's houses however ....

    I'm going to try putting this here, since this was as close as
    I could come in the "roof" topics. Moderators, if there is a 
    better note for this, please feel free to move it.
    
    My dad is having a problem with black lines on his white
    asphalt roof.  The roof is about 9 years old, is in very
    good shape, and only has these lines on the front part of
    the roof, not the rear.  They have only developed in the
    past year or so, and do not seem to correspond to the 
    locations of: trees, the chimney or any visible nails.  
    They don't all start from the same point, ie the top of 
    roof versus halfway down, etc.
    
    Any ideas on what they are or how to get rid of them?
    It's driving my dad nuts, as he is rather fastidious about
    the house.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mary-Michael  

>    My dad is having a problem with black lines on his white
>    asphalt roof.  The roof is about 9 years old, is in very

	    Could you describe the lines more precisely?  My only guess is
	the tar used for sealing the nails may be seeping.

					Tim

    I too have this problem.  In my case they are wide streaks of black
    stuff.  Looks like someone threw a chunk of soot in a downward
    direction and it splatters/streaks downward (front of the house only).
    
    We asked the chimney sweep guy if it may have been soot/cresote and he
    said "no".
    
    We are not sure what is causing it or how to correct it.  Our roof
    shingles are an off white/grey color, and these streaks look awful.
    The shingles are about 10 years old.  I think this started this past
    winter.  This winter we had unusual amounts of snow staying on the roof
    most of the winter and I wonder if this may have had something to do
    with it.
    
    Please post what you find out about this!  Thanks, Mark
    

    	Perhaps if you know the shingle manufacturer you may be able to get
    in touch with them to see if they know anything about this. Also, maybe a
    call to HQ or Home Depot could get some answers if someone there has
    received a complaint and already checked into it.
    
    	I can't imagine what could possibly be causing it myself.
    
    	Ray

    Maybe some kind of mildew?
    

Try some chlorine bleach.  If it doesn't affect it, it's not mildew.

Some powerwash spray guys had offered my wife to clean the whole house and
gutters for about $120.  I told her if they would clean the black stuff off the
roof to hire them.  They refused to spray the roof because they thought they
may ruin the shingles.

Not sure how I would go about applying a cleaning solution.  It is to high to
reach with a ladder, and you can;t brush the shingles.

Could try a mild spray but how effective might that be?

Mark

On the last house we owned we had this same problem.  The shingles were light
grey and on the north side of the house they looked pretty bad with streaky
discoloration.  I believe they were about 19 years old.  Not sure what caused it
but I have noticed it on a number of grey roofs.  I just chaulked it up to the
gravel wearing thin as the shingle reached the end of it's life and that the
underlying black asphalt was starting to show. That and weathering since the
south side looked a lot better.  When I replaced them I used black shingles.

George

I've seen streaked shingles on some houses near my neighborhood. The houses
had one thing in common - they were all near very tall pine trees. Could be
coincidence, or could be pine sap causing the streaks. 

Steve

    Well it is the "front" of my cape, it is the "north" side, they are
    "grey" shingles.
    
    However there are no trees in the front, no pine trees on the lot.
    The shingles are around 10 to 12 years old.
    
    It really does not look like the shingles have worn thin enough to
    be showing the black paper underneath.  
    
    I will probably get on the ladder this weekend and take a closer look.
    
    Mark

    No, Dad doesn't have any pine trees (or any others for that matter)
    around the house.  These are 25 year shingles, so I doubt they are
    wearing out after 9 years (at least I hope not).  Dad isn't sure
    who the manufacturer is, although he was going to look through
    the house paperwork and see if he had the warranty. From the
    replies, though it seems as if he isn't alone anyway...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    Re .14:
    
    Does the affected roof face north?
    
    I've seen this a lot on north-facing roofs, and it is usually
    attributed to mildew.
    

        I am hiring a roofer to put a new roof on my house.
        I have the choicese of shingle brand (25 year guarantee) and color
        for the same cost. Here are the choices for  shingle brand :
    
          Bird : fiber glass/asphalt shingle manufactured in USA
          GAF  : fiber glass/asphalt shingle manufactured in USA
          BPCO : organic asphalt shingle manufactured in Canada
    
        Which one is the best?
    
        Since I will be repainting my house to a light color (light blue/gray)
        , my roofer told me that  darker color shingle will look better
        for a light color house.  He also recommened me to avoid
        pure black or pure white shingles because they show patchiness.
    
    
        Any other advice about shingle shingle color will be greatly
        appreciated.
    
    
        Thanks.
    
        -Shuhua
    

    If you use a neutral color, like grey or black, you'll be able to paint
    your house any color in the next 25 years.  If you pick something to
    match blue, you'll be kind of stuck with blue.
    
    ed

    I would pick a light-colored shingle.  They will reflect more heat
    in the summer and, I think, last slightly longer because they won't
    get quite so baked as a dark shingle.
    
    I've used both Bird and GAF with success.  I haven't heard of the
    other brand you mention, but it's probably okay too.

    I'm waiting for Jerry Garcia designer shingles...

    	I believe that most shingle mfg'rs carry a line of shingles, with a
    high and low end quality. I know I've seen the first two you mentioned 
    with anywhere from a 15 to a 30 year warranty. You have to make sure
    you're comparing apples and apples.
    
    	The color comments seems right on the money. The only exception I
    can think of is that I'd expect a dark shingle with a 30 year warrantee
    to outlast a light one with a 15 year warrantee.
    
    	Ray

Whichever shingle you pick, make sure that you get all of the paperwork required
to make a warranty claim, should you need to do so in the future.  Most of the time,
the information required (original invoice from shingle manufacturer, other 
paperwork) is not provided unless you ask for it.
Margaret.

	 Organic mat shingles have higher tear resistance than fiberglass.
	Naturally they cost a little more. I read an article where some 
	roofers on the west coast now refuse to use fiberglass shingles 
	because of some early failures. There is some standard ASTM 
	something or other test which all fiberglass shingles, except 1 
	version from 1 manufacturer, fail to meet. I don't remember which 
	brand passed. Organic shingles are getting harder to find, you won't 
    	see them at HQ or HD. I'm surprised that your contractor mentioned 
    	them rather than just quoting the lower cost fiberglass shingles. I 
	believe that fiberglass shingles generally have a better fire 
	resistance rating. Which is best? I would (and have) use(d) the 
    	organic mat.

         I would opt for a light dual color shingle. I think the dual color
	shingles don't show color variation between bundles and lots. I've
	seen many roofs with single color shingles where you can see where
	the roofer opened a new bundle. Shingles are affected by temperature
	cycles (picture a summer thunderstorm). Dark shingles get much 
        hotter, therefore experience a greater temp. swing than light color 
        shingles do.
 
	Jim F. 
    
	P.S. The Canadian shingles are probably metric. They are slightly
	     larger than standard. If you were to install them yourself a
	     metric tape measure would be handy.
    

    If you're going with the Canadian shingles, remember to get the metric
    galvanized roofing nails and metric hammer.
    
    
    Lotsa 8-)'s

    Actually, I would recommend Canadian-made roofing nails in preference
    to the made-in-Taiwan or -Korea nails.  I wasn't too impressed with 
    the far east import nails I used; the heads came off too easily.  The 
    Canadian-made nails were of much better quality.

    Do yourself a favor now, and for the future, and stay away from
    fiberglas shingles.  I had my house built with 20 year warranty BIRD
    fiberglas shingles 7 years ago, and they are now cracking, splitting,
    and blowing off the roof.  And that wonderful warranty?  Yes, well I
    got a "claim kit" from BIRD.  I have to get up on the roof and take
    photos of the roof, the soffits, the ridge vent, and then remove a
    full shingle...send all this to the company and wait 45 days for a 
    "lab report".  Then, at most, they pro-rate the warranty and do NOT
    pay for labor to replace the shingles.
    
    The lumberyard I bought the shingles from, no longer carry BIRD
    shingles because of all the problems they've had with the company.
    

Thanks for so many valuable suggestions.

About the brand, I thought Bird was a pretty good one because all other 
contractors who came for the estimate all wanted to use Bird. But they 
all wanted the 25 year warranty one. Well I guess I will stay away 
from Bird. 

About the color, it looks like the light color shingle
is the better choice for practical reason. But I notice that 
the lighter color shingles show dirtiness over the time especially 
over the chiney area and underneath the shade. Also,  
a darker roof looks better with a lighter color house, right?  


Shuhua

    
    There's an article in this month's Pop Science about new shingles that
    cope with the streaking problems on light shingles.  Apparently this
    can be due to colonies of algae that feast on organic material in the
    shingles. The new ones use copper granules in the grit which kills the
    alage.
    
    I seem to recall there was an article in Consumer Reports a few
    years ago about failing shingles and reluctance to cover warrantees.
    Might be worth checking out.
    
    
    Colin
    

    re .7
    
     Yes I did get the metric roofing hammer. :-) 
    
     Actually it has a slot for the exposure setting screw rather than the
    more common fixed hole type. If I remember right the metric shingles
    have an exposure of about 5 and 3/8 in. This hammer was a great help
    keeping the horizontal lines straight.
    
    Jim F. 

I spoke to my contractor about my concern of fiberglass based shingles.
My contractor told me that the fiberglass based shingles have been around for
about 7 or 8 years. There were  serious premature defects in
Bird's fiberglass based shingles few years ago due to the imbalance of 
the material ( imbalance ratio between fiberglass and asphalt). The
20 year guarantee ones were the worst. 
Bird recalled the defective shingles and has corrected the problem since then.

He told me that he replaced a lot of new houses' roofs because of the defective 
fiberglass based shingles were initially installed at the time when the 
fiberglass technology just started.
He assured me that the new Bird fiberglass based shingles are OK now.

-Shuhua

    I've got Bird 30-year fiberglass shingles, and they seem to be doing
    fine after about 6 years, no sign of a problem.  We put in a couple
    of skylights a year or so ago, and the shingles that got pulled up
    to do that showed no particular signs of deterioration.
    

    I'll be reroofing my house next spring and I was wondering if it's 
    considered ok to use red cedar shingles over the existing asphalt
    shingles which are approximately 20-25 years old. My original plans
    were to use the asphalt shingle but was curious wheather or not I
    could consider this as an option. I've never seen this practiced or
    described in trade mags or "how-to" books. Can it be done or do you 
    have to strip off the existing layer of shingles first?
    
    Thanks for the info,
    
    Steve

    Well, *I* wouldn't do it, but then I wouldn't put on two layers of
    anything.
    As a practical matter, I don't see why it wouldn't work.  I assume you
    have a plywood roof deck, in which case there is little difference
    between putting the wood shingles on that and putting them over the
    asphalt shingles, as far as ventilating the underside of the wood
    shingles is concerned.  If you have boards for a roof deck, I think 
    there would be an advantage to stripping the asphalt, as the cracks
    between the boards would provide some degree of ventilation to the
    underside of the wood shingles.
    
    But I've never actually read or heard anything about this particular
    combination, either....

    
    Isn't wood shingles used for roofing illegal in most states?
    
    Bill

    
   > Isn't wood shingles used for roofing illegal in most states?
    
     Nope.

    
    ...though some states or localities demand some sort of fire-retardant
    treatment on wood shingle roofing.
    
    JP

    What are the conditions of the asphalt shingles.  I would suspect that
    25 year old shingles are probably warped, cracked etc. I would
    recommend that you remove the shingles.  Why spend the money and time
    to put wooden shingles on a less than pristine base.  Besides, I found
    when I removed my shingles there were rotten spots on the base that
    needed replacement.  By stripping to bare wood, you can check for rot,
    reapply some of the newer underlayment schemes, recheck all your
    flashing and have a really solid roof that would last for many years.
    
    Brian

    I thought that cedar/wood shingles require ventilation on both sides,
    so they are normally installed over thin boards with large gaps.  In
    this case I don't think you'd want to put them over an existing asphalt
    roof, or over plywood for that matter.
    
    I remember hearing stories about folks with wood shingled roofs going
    up into their attic and seeing daylight through all the cracks in the
    shingles.  The rain water swells the wood and seals the cracks. 
    Ventilation is required to dry out the roof so it won't rot.
    
    But then I'm FAR from being an expert if roofing, especially wood.
    
    

    
    The "best" installation is a strapped installation that allows the 
    cedar to expand and contract and have airflow underneath. That said,
    it is not "required". It's actually quite common to have cedar roofs
    that are nailed directly to plywood (over tar paper)... which is how
    the front of my house is done. The life expectancy is not as high as
    the "best" method and you should put more effort into maintenance 
    (i.e. wood preservatives at least every 4-5 years).
    
    
    								- Mac

    I'm looking for opinions on roof shingle colors. Common sense says
    that black will be alot hotter than a lighter color. Has anyone found
    this true in practice? I'm in the process of picking out the shingles
    for my house and am debating light versus dark.
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    -Brent
         

It's not really true.  There is some difference, but it's not significant.

				Steve

    I think a light color helps, although I certainly can't quantify it.  
    I also think light colored shingles may last slighlty longer because
    they don't get quite so baked from heat, athough I can't quantify that 
    either.
    I got light-colored shingles when I reroofed, for whatever advantage
    they might give.  If none, at least they don't hurt anything.

  4604  WMOIS::MAY_B         24-APR-1992     1  CHANGING ROOF COLOR

    I over the summer changed shingle colors for dark gray to light brown.
    It does make a difference in heat.  Also our roofer recommended going
    lighter for the reason mentioned before that the darker shingles will
    heat up more and break down faster.  Since he has no need to push light
    or dark and has been around a long time, I would assume he knew what he
    was talking about.  It just seems like common sense that the darker
    they are the more they heat and retain heat.
    
    Brian

	When I got my house re-roofed last year (or was it 2 years already?)
	I also went with a lighter color for both longer lasting, keeping
	the attic a little tiny bit cooler, and for appearance.

	You really do want to be careful choosing color as to not destroy
	the houses "curb appeal".  Ideally I would of liked the color
	that would reflect the most heat off the roof.  However since
	my AL siding is white, a white roof I didn't think would look
	good (no contrast).  I ended up going with what Bird calls their
	"slate gray" which is not a dark gray.

A properly ventilated attic is probably more important than the color 
of the shingles.  "Properly ventilated" nowadays means full soffit vents
and a full ridge vent.
In such a case, dark shingles will probably generate more convection 
through the attic, which might provide better ventilation and keep 
the attic drier.

- tom]

> A properly ventilated attic is probably more important than the color 
> of the shingles.  "Properly ventilated" nowadays means full soffit vents
> and a full ridge vent.

	Proper ventilation is always important, however ...

> In such a case, dark shingles will probably generate more convection 
> through the attic, which might provide better ventilation and keep 
> the attic drier.

	... this is clearly pure conjecture and I drier isn't an issue
	hear, temperture is (assuming proper ventilation).

	Plus the other benifit (which is unverified also :-) is that
	the lighter colored shingles themselves will last longer ...

I had light grey shingles on a previous house and I wouldn't use them again. 
They may hold up better thermally but when the surface starts to wear the
underlying black begins to show through and they look terrible.  Since they were
on the roof when I bought the house I'm not sure if maybe this was because of a
cheap brand of shingles.

George

> I had light grey shingles on a previous house and I wouldn't use them again. 
> They may hold up better thermally but when the surface starts to wear the
> underlying black begins to show through and they look terrible.Since they were
> on the roof when I bought the house I'm not sure if maybe this was because of
> a cheap brand of shingles.

	You didn't mention how old the roof was either, in which case the
	previous owners could of told you the roof was younger than it
	really was .....

>I had light grey shingles on a previous house and I wouldn't use them again. 
>They may hold up better thermally but when the surface starts to wear the
>underlying black begins to show through and they look terrible.  Since they were

    Well, this would be true for ALL non-black shinlges. At least with
    a grey or grey mix shingle, the wear areas would look like part of
    the pattern for awhile.

    I've seen some white roofs that have started to wear and they look
    like crap right away!

    Charly

>       <<< Note 5716.7 by 2155::michaud "Jeff Michaud - ObjectBroker" >>>
>...
>> In such a case, dark shingles will probably generate more convection 
>> through the attic, which might provide better ventilation and keep 
>> the attic drier.
>
>	... this is clearly pure conjecture and I drier isn't an issue
>	hear, temperture is (assuming proper ventilation).

Hey, I plead guilty to conjecture, but I'll also point out that dry is good,
and if color helps "dry," then it fits in this topic.
If someone is thinbking of reshingling, reminding them that a ridge vent
can be done at the same time is a good idea too.

- tom] (reddish-orange shingles, but they came with the house, and don't
        make fun until you come by and look at 'em)

> If someone is thinbking of reshingling, reminding them that a ridge vent
> can be done at the same time is a good idea too.

	.... in which case you should also put in soffit vents at the
	same time to get the best use out of the ridge vent

jeff (who had a ridge vent installed when roof was done, but hasn't gotton
      around to buying a tall enough ladder yet so I can go around installing
      soffit vents :-(

    The house is going to have full length soffit and ridge vents.
    The roofing material the builder uses is made by GAf in Millis.
    Has anyone heard of them?
    
    -Brent
    

GAF is one of the biggies.  Henry Fonda used to do their ads.  They had a huge
roof shingle recall maybe 10 years ago, but I can't remember the details.

    
    GAF makes several lines of shingles, Soveriegn, Marquis, and Timberline
    come to mind.  In each of these there are usually three "levels";
    a 25 year (240#/sq?), 30yr (280#/sq?), and 40yr (320#/sq?).  The
    Timberline is their architectural "shadow line" shingle and has 
    Timberline 25 (25yr warranty, contractor grade), Timberline (30yr,
    "premium" grade; 50-55$/sq), and Timberline Ultra (40yr, "custom"
    grade; 80-85$/sq).  I forget the blurbs on the other two series,
    but Home Alone carries the Soveriegn for somewhere in the 7-8$/bundle
    range.  At 4 bundles per square, thats 30-35$/sq.  If given the
    choice opt for at least the 30yr shingles.  Just my opinion.
    
    If you've got money to burn ;-), there are "standard" three tab
    shingles available that have a heavy copper foil laminated on top.
    "Only" $800/sq!  Available in 3 rectangle tabs or 3 fish scale
    tabs (saw these at a home show, rep is in Nashua).

    Bird has a similar line of shingles, with a transferable
    warranty. Having been burned, I would look upon GAF shingles
    on an existing house with suspicion. The warranty on GAF
    does not cover 2nd owners of a house - which means they hardly
    ever have to honor it if the shingles fail after 7 or so 
    years. (Most houses turn over every 7 years.)
    

    Another way to go is instead of putting in soffit vents - put HICK's 
    (i think that's what they are called) vents in. These are large oversized 
    drip edges with vents. You can put these if you are reroofing. I think 
    more breathing can be gotten because it goes the full length of the house 
    on both sides or where ever you have drip edge. They cut back the roofing 
    plywood a little from the edges where it meets the facure/soffit, mount 
    this 'vented' drip edge and shingle over it as normal. You can see the 
    vents from ground level. Better than drilling holes every so often for 
    soffit vents. This way the roofer takes care of it all, i.e. ridge and 
    Hick's vents and you don't have to go around after and put the soffit 
    vents in.  
    
    /bd  

My house was originally built with Hick's vents and when I was 
getting a ridge vent installed later, the roofer said the Hick's 
vents *don't* supply as much ventilation as soffit vents.  
(But, of course, he may have been biased because adding soffit 
vents would have made his job larger.)

The way the Hicks' vents have the small louvre openings, I'm
not sure how one would calculate the square inches of intake
to compare it to soffit intake.  There's probably a formula around
somewhere.

    
    I have a heavily insulated attic, Hick's vents, ridge vents, and 
    ICE DAMS. Hick's vents are "flexed into place" to match the slope 
    of the roof... my current theory is that the shallow slope of 
    my roof causes the Hick's vents to be nearly closed and I have 
    been seriously considering cutting in continuos soffit vents
    to increase ventilation.
    
    							- Mac

Proper soffit vents are continuous, and run the length of the soffit
at about 2" to 3" in width.  They are louvered or screened to keep
insects out.
The round (up to 3" or 4") and square (4"x6" up to maybe 8"x12") vents 
just don't offer enough opening for good air flow unless you use a prohibitive
number.

The strip vents (10' sections?) are meant to be installed before the soffit
boards are installed, but I have installed them after the fact by cutting
a gap of the appropriate width in the soffit and surface mounting them.

- tom]

    
    re: roof color contrast (several replies back)
    
    This summer I changed from a black shingle to a light grey (almost white)
    shingle, thinking of how warm my house got on summer days...I am somewhat
    disappointed in the loss of contrast between my shingle color and my house
    (white)...(I wish I had thought of it before we put down the first 5 or
    6 squares Grrr...:^(  I did notice a temperature difference in the house
    right away, but we also removed the old (stack? type vents) and installed
    a full ridge vent, so there were other factors involved here.
                         
    re: ventilated drip edge (hicks vents?)
    
    Before installing a ridge vent I spoke with "engineers" from two vent
    manufacturers. ***Both*** recommended ***not*** using anything but soffit
    vents (w/ a ridge) in a climate that gets snow, especially if a gutter
    is installed (and allows snow to build up in front of vents.) Cora-Vent
    also recommends installing a wind deflector (made of flashing) to keep
    the snow from entering the small air openings in their vents. I didn't
    want the snow problem or a 54' piece of flashing on the top of my house,
    so I went with a roll type ridge, (no openings large enough for bugs/snow).
    The roll went down easy, looks great, and cost was about the same.
    
    In my case, increasing soffit ventilation meant ripping down some existing
    perforated vinyl soffits, drilling a few hundred additional holes with a 2"
    hole saw (on a ladder), and reinstalling the vinyl. A fun job to say the
    least. NOT!
    
    /Charlie
                                

	I just received an estimate for some shingle repairs (from ice
	dam removal damage) that struck me as outrageous!  Is it?

		   replace approx 50 shingles - $680

	The proposal didn't even say anything about type of shingle 
	(mfr, yrs, etc.) or any other details.

	Plus, the roof is 10 years old and has been curling for a few years. 
        It may have even been defective (I'm the 2nd owner - no mfr recourse
	available - tried).    It will need replacement in a couple or 
	few years.  That fact was mentioned to the contractor.  I think it
	was clear I was not looking to make a big investment.  I fear he 
	heard the magic words "insurance claim".

	$680 sounds like about 25% of a new roof.  Doesn't make much
	sense to me. What percentage of a roof is 50 shingles?
	(house is simple colonial; gable roof; foundation size is 28 x 32
        shallow pitch)

	When I call to question the amount, what other questions
	should I ask?  


	

    I paid about $2000 for a new asphalt shingle roof (25 x 37 foundation)
    about a year ago.  And 50 shingles is not very much (somewhere between
    50 and 100 square feet).  However, I don't think you can directly
    compare repair work with new construction.   I think the repair work
    will always come out significantly higher.  --  Vince
    

                                                             
    re: .250  replace approx 50 shingles - $680
    
    This sure sounds like a high estimate to me. Two bundles of the typical
    25-30 year shingles should set you back about $20 max., leaving $660 for
    labor. How many hours to do the job? Are there any other materials 
    included? While I'd expect the labor to be 95+% of the bill, do yourself
    a favor and get at least one or two more estimates, regardless. 
    
    As far as your 10 year old roof "curling", I had 15 year old shingles 
    that were curling or cupping. Insufficient attic ventilation appears to
    be the culprit in my case. You might want to investigate your ventilation
    requirements and compare them to what's there now. A hot attic can cook
    those shingles! 
    
    Depending on your exact roof, I'd expect you to pay about $2.5k (approx.
    12 squares + cap + waste) to get it completely stripped and redone with
    a 25 year shingle (any ventilation work would be extra). IMHO, with cupped
    shingles you really should strip it (even a single layer). But It doesn't
    sound like you're ready to do the "whole" thing yet. I would not spend 
    $680 on a roof I'd be stripping within two or so years...
    
    Good Luck,
    Charlie
    
    P.S. FWIW, 50 shingles is about 6% of your roof area by my calculations.

Re: 250 replies

thanks.  Now I have some numbers to work with. 


I do plan on getting more estimates -- if only one of the
roofers I called would actually call back!    Dealing with 
contractors can be a royal pain.  I got a kick out of it in
the beginning of homeownership.  The novelty has worn off!!!

As far as the premature curling, I've improved the attic ventilation
a lot since I moved in 3 yrs ago (thanks to this notes file -- learning
about ridge vents and ice dam mitigation, etc).  I'm assuming the
improved ventilation has stopped or slowed down the shingle 
deterioration.    we'll see...

  Wendy

    The price of the repair, and any re-roofing, depends
    significantly on the height, pitch, and complexity
    of the roof. Replacing a simple relatively shallow
    pitched roof on a ranch is the cheap end of the scale.
    A high, gabled, steep roof is the othe end.
    

    Also, I'd expect that if the 50 shingles to be replaced were all
    individual shingles (i.e. 50 small jobs) the labor cost would be
    quite high compared with a few batches of shingles to replace (5
    spots of 10 shingles together). When replacing an individual shingle
    there's the problem of removing the old shingle without damaging its
    neighbors and fitting the new one in ... the per-shingle labor is
    probably an order of magnitude higher than it is when stripping and
    reshingling a whole roof.
    
    Then again, I've never done either myself, FWIW...

    
    re: last two
    
    While I agree this is a labor intensive job, and cost surely depends
    on many factors ("shallow pitch" was mentioned in .250) I think $13
    per shingle for labor is a bit much. Being that the damage was  "from 
    ice dam removal damage", I'd expect that most of the damage to be in the 
    first couple of courses of shingles, many side by side. This type of
    repair might require staging or ladder work, no "biggee" for the pros,
    although height is a consideration.
    
    
    I think the fact that this winters ice/snow had thousands of people
    on their roofs with hammers, hatchets, shovels etc. to break ice
    (and shingles!) might have roofers a bit busy. This might explain the
    high price and lack of returned calls...(FWIW, I *never* have had luck
    with contractors/landscapers returning calls! Grrrrr...)
    
     
    /Charlie

    
    I'm looking for an 'older' style shingle that appears to have been used 
    on houses built in the 1920's to 1940's and possibly later. After it is
    installed it looks to be diamond shaped. Often in a fairly bright green 
    color although I've seen others (red and light grey that looks like
    slate).  I'm having a roof on a house in Florida done and this type of 
    roofing was used on the house prior to a really ugly light brown shingles 
    which are in pretty bad shape. From what we can tell, the original roof 
    was wood but I'm having enough difficulty getting regular shingles put on
    so I thought I would go with either the green diamond ones or the
    architectural shingles that look like cedar (covered in earlier notes
    in this string). 

    If anyone has any sources for this type of shingle I would *really*
    appreciate a pointer to a supplier! If not is HD a good a place as any
    for the architectural ones? 
    
    Thanks and regards,
    
    Angela
    

    
    The cost of architectural shingles is based on the usual items
    (material-type and warranty) plus the additional factor of what 
    is sometime called "shadow depth". The more built up the shingle, 
    the better the shadow depth, the more pleasing the appearance and 
    the more expensive the shingle. Home Depot usually stock cheap to 
    moderate architectural shingles and only special orders the shingles
    with the most depth. 
    
    If possible, contact some roofers and see if you can get a list of 
    their customers which will show you the large difference between a 
    shallower verses a deeper shadow depth. It's tough to appreciate 
    looking at a single shingle.
    
    Regarding the "green diamonds". In many cases these shingles are like
    architectural shingles. Architectural shingles are an attempt to 
    duplicate the look of shake roofs (and sometimes tile/slate roofs)
    for less cost and/or maintenance.  Those green diamond shingles were
    an attempt to duplicate the look of full copper roofs that were made
    in diamond-style and scallop style... the roofs rather quickly develop
    a much desired (at one time, anyways) green patina. I recently saw an
    ad for ACTUAL copper roof shingles which were selling for $600 a square
    and they had a more expensive option of a clear coat to PREVENT (delay)
    the patina!
    
    								- Mac 

    Thanks for the info on the shingles. 
    
    My house has been painted a medium grey with white trim, 
    in anticipation of a metal roof. Now that I am going to use the 
    architectural shingles (it's a long story) I was wondering if anyone 
    would have an opinion on what color shingles would a) go with the grey
    and b) reflect some of that Florida sunshine? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Angela
    

	I found out the background to the $680 high bid.  It seems that 
	this contractor uses a pricing reference that the insurance
	industry uses, especially when bidding on work subject to
	insurance claims. It was called something like the "1996 
	Insurance Guideline to Construction Costs".

	Actually he said for my particular job, the guideline produced
        a number closer to $1200, but he dropped it applying his own
	guideline modifications.

	He said the amount of details the the guideline includes
        is incredible.  They have time allotted for every single
	factor... protecting the bushes, setting up staging, 
        buying the nails, etc. etc.  Also included is time to possibly
        replace *abutting* shingles to the "50 damaged ones" that
        may be impacted by the replacement. 

	He said that, as a contractor, when he does an estimate based
	on the insurance guidelines, he doesn't have to worry about getting
	the short end of the stick, which he says often happens 
	with estimating.  He acknowledges that he may lose out on
        some bids because he is high, but he knows that for the jobs he
        gets, he won't be working without making money and he doesn't
	have to resort to shortcuts or rushing, etc.

	He also said that if and when an insurance adjustor comes out (which
	is not likely), that he would be more than willing to meet with 
	him and he can defend the $680 easily.  

	So I sent in the insurance claim...
 

    This winter while tackling ice dams I found out that our 8 year old
    roof had numerous shingles that had cracked. The roofer told me that
    there was a history of defect problems with the GAF shingles I had
    used.  On his recommendation I contacted GAF Warranty Service
    (1-800-458-1860). They sent out a warranty claim kit which required me
    to provide:
    
    -receipts for materials and installation
    -2 sample defective shingles
    -2 pictures of defective roof areas
    -2 pictures full-house front and rear
    -2 pictures showing venting system (ridge & soffit vents)
    
    The settlement letter arrived from GAF 5 weeks after I returned the
    claim kit with all requested info. Their settlement offer provided:
    
    -Voucher for 32 Sq of same grade 20 yr. (GAF/Sentinel) shingle.
     Based on their warranty, they only were required to offer 60% of the
     32 Sq. claimed, based on 8 years use of the 20 year warranty.
    
    -Check for $400.35 towards installation of new shingles. GAF warranty
     policy only covers labor expense for the first year, so the $400.35
     was a "goodwill" gesture.
    
    I suppose I should be grateful for GAF offerring more than the minimal
    warranty coverage, but this offer barely covers 30% of what it will
    actually cost me to have the defective roof stripped and reshingles.
    
    The lowest estimate I've received is $2400 labor plus another $500 for 
    additional materials (felt paper, I&W shield, drip-edge, etc.
    
    Jonathan    

    
    My house is 22 years old, and the roof is the original.  It's a very 
    very design with no valleys or turns.  I've got a ridge vent, soffit 
    vents and gable vents, but still I've had ice dams -- and lots of 
    interior water stains -- two of the past three winters. 

    One roofer who seems to have a good local reputation proposed laying 8 
    feet of ice and snow shield over the existing shingles, and then new 
    shingles over the entire roof.  Has anyone heard of installing that 
    shield without first removing the old shingles?  Is it a really bad 
    idea?  He quoted a very attractive price for the whole job.  

    Thanks...

    re: .262
    
    Well, I sure don't think much of the idea....
    

    	re:262
    
    	Although it would probably work, I would think that a lumpy looking
    roof (at best) would probably be the result. I also suspect that it
    would not hold up as well over time like a roof that was stripped
    first. 
    
    	I'd also ask him if there was a local roof that he's done this to,
    so that you could look at the result and judge for yourself. Preferably, 
    ask to see one that was done a couple years ago, if possible. Perhaps you 
    could talk to the owners and see what they thought as well. 
    
    	Lastly, find out if your dump currently accepts shingles where you
    live. If they accept them now, they may not when the roof has to be 
    re-done XX years from now. This leaves you (or the new owners) with a 
    potentially very large disposal bill in the future.
    
    	Ray

Ice and water shield is supposed to be installed flat against the sheathing,
not over shingles.  I don't think it will work properly over shingles.
Certainly the manufacturer won't guarantee such an installation.

			Steve