Conference 7.286::home_work

    I have been vehemently opposed to vinyl siding most of my adult
    life - until recently.  I'm currently faced with the cost to re-shingle
    one side of my house and the cost to paint it as being very close
    to the cost of vinyl siding.  I talked with a vinyl siding contractor
    who offered lists of references, many within walking distance of
    my house and pictures of what they can do to retain the original
    look of older homes.  I was impressed!  Have I been the victum of
    a great salesman or has the industry matured?  In particular, my
    house is 2 1/2 + stories and it is very difficult to get up to the
    top to paint the trim or the siding.  I'm still debating what to
    do - I may not do anything in the immediate future since either
    re-shingling and painting or putting up vinyl siding is a major
    capital exspense.

    One of the more amusing aspects of vinyl siding is its tolerance
    of extreme heat.
    
    Case in point:  Recently a home near where I live had a garage file
    that resulted in the detached garage burning to the ground.  The
    heat from the fire was enough to melt the vinyl siding on the house
    at least 30' away.  The result looked like a cake with runny icing
    placed in the hot sun.
    
    -- Ward

My wife and I purchased a 65 year old handyman special.  It is a two story
house that originally have clapboards on the first story and wood shingles
on the second.  The previous owner put wood shingles over the clapboards
(on 3 sides only) because they were in poor condition.  The entire house
was in need of something - paint/stain/??.  I thought of putting wood
shingles on the fourth side and on the second story, then possibly staining
them.  I am not big on staining/painting and did not really want to look
at all those shingles in another 5 years, so I looked into siding. 

I went with vinyl.  Got 3 estimates and about died - materials were only 20 -
25% of the total cost.  So I found a local siding contractor that would sell
me the materials.  He charged me $50 to make the list of materials - no
strings.  I could buy from anyone I wanted, but I bought from him.  He
then said that he would buy back any unused, complete pieces.

I could go on for days, but I'll try to keep it short.  I got 20 square
of siding, J-trim, starter strip, outside corners, vented soffit panels,
rolls of aluminum for fascia, etc.  I then bought enough 2x4s to make
20' 4x4s, 2 sets of pump jacks, and 2 16' planks.  I put up the pump
jacks, ripped of the shingles, nailed up 3/4" styrofoam insulation,
then installed the siding.  

Oops, the insulation is 2x8 tongue and groove panels that not only
seal up all the cracks, but provide a nice smooth backing for the
siding (as opposed to the old clapboards).  Since the insulation is
3/4", you buy 1 1/2" J-trim.  Short as promised - more later if you
are interested.


Mark

    

    
    	Vinyl HAS come a long way. I have read and seen that there is
    a new "insulated " vinly that is hard as a rock. This supposedly
    kills the idea of vinyl cracking. At the channel, which is across
    from lechmere's I believe ,you can buy this insulted vinyl for
    do it yourselfers. Not only do you save yourself a ton of
    money but you can also have some "Backup pieces" just in case
    something happens to any of them
    

  Does the installation of vinyl siding allow any way for moisture to
  escape from the house?  I've heard that vinyl (and for that matter,
  aluminum) siding can cause moisture/rotting problems in the walls
  due to the large amount of water that a New England house "breathes"
  during the winter...

  JP

    We had vinyl siding installed last summer on our 100 year old duplex.
    In our case (duplex in Maynard) we figured that the next owner of
    the house may be purchasing it for rental income only.  He/she will 
    then not be too excited about painting a huge house every ten years.
    The last time the house was painted it took 28 gallons of paint.
    
    The vinyl siding has holes in the bottom of each strip.  The space
    between holes is roughly 1-2 feet.  The panels used in the soffett
    area are approximately 1 foot each.  Every other panel is ventilated.
          
    The header and sill trim of each window and door were covered with
    baked enamel aluminum.  This is used so that it can be molded by
    machine to fit the contour of the window.  This was one of my
    biggest complaints of siding in the past.  It looked too artificial.
    The fact that we could basically keep the detail of the windows
    and doors was a big factor in our decision to go with siding.
                                             
    If you decide to take this job on yourself, you should be aware
    of a couple of things.  Do not use aluminum nails.  They have a
    tendency to loosen after a couple of years.  And do not pound the
    nail in all the way.  Leave a small gap to allow the siding to slide
    from side to side.  This is where the "vinyl cracks" stories come
    from.
    
    I read a piece in New Shelter a year or two ago.  They said that
    by 1996, 50% of the homes in the U.S. will have vinyl siding.  That
    looks like an optimistic prediction to me but time will tell.  I
    did notice a 200 home development in Maynard completed a couple
    of years ago in which every home had vinyl siding.  These split-level
    homes are selling in the 160-180K range now.  It doesn't appear that 
    the siding is a negative factor at all.
               
    					Steve

    Re .5:  That's exactly why I am thinking that I will put up with
    the staining instead of the vinyl (easy) way.  When I was living
    in Florida, an old friend of mine said that his father had told
    him that there were two things that you didn't paint: 1) the inside
    of your boat; and, 2) the outside of your house.  Both are for the
    same reason--so that the wood can breathe.  I have heard that the
    pigmented stains will allow the wood to breathe, but will repel
    water (rain).  I haven't seen stained wood peeling either.  I am
    going to have to do something to the exterior of my house one of
    these years because the unstained textured 1 - 11 is starting to
    delaminate.  
    
    BB

    I think I recall discussions in the literature that suggested
    opening small vents through the sheathing at the bottom and top
    of each insulation column between the studs.  This allows a bit
    of breathing to take care of any moisture coming through from the
    inside without noticeably compromising insulating values (as long
    as the insulation isn't packed tightly against the sheathing).
    
    As for the outside face of the sheathing, to some extent it's
    reasonable to assume that if water gets in through the siding,
    it can breathe out the same way.
    						- Bill
    

    The potential for trapped moisture is not that "water gets in through
    the siding."  It's that moisture inside the house (especially in
    the winter) can get outside where it want's to be.
    
    -- Ward

    Understood (see first paragraph of .8, which addresses the 'moisture
    from inside' aspect).  However, in a hard-driving rain, there's
    some possibility of a bit sneaking in around the window, door, etc.
    openings - and given that the siding is otherwise tight, it may
    have some difficulty getting back out if it drains somewhat away
    from the point of entry.
    
    Perhaps it can breathe right through the sheathing and escape that
    way through the aforementioned small stud column outside vents,
    the same way moisture originating inside does.  Not an area I'm
    very familiar with, I'm afraid.
    
    - Bill
    

    
      caution: Vinyl siding fades after about four years
      and also makes a good living space for hornets nest's!!!
      just ask my father-in-law.
    
    pp

    Re: .11
    
    Where were the hornet's nests located?
    
    					Steve

    It's  a cheap way to cover up lots of years of neglect, and make
    a house look good for a few years.  It breaks when it gets cold,
    it fades after several years, and if you ever need to replace a
    section, it's usually impossible   to find some to match, thus the
    house looks terrible or you re-do the whole thing.   On top of that
    some older houses loose lots of their 'character' when covered with
    siding.  (ever seen a house with a round turret wit VERTICAL siding?
    I have)  It plain doesn't look good.
    
    Paint on the other hand is much better looking, and (I believe)
    cheaper in the long run.     (I can probably paint my house several
    times over the next 20 years for the price of siding it)
    
    Another thing.  I've just been looking at houses again, so I've
    seen lots of houses that have vinyl and lots that have wood/shingles.
    I don't want to sound like a 'snob' but most of the houses that
    had siding were in the 'low rent districts' while the natural wood
    and painted houses were in the better neighborhoods.  (Take Waltham
    and Newton for example, Waltham has LOTS of vinyl siding, Newton
    has very little)
        
    	In the 50's people put insulbrick on their houses, they're taking
    	it off now....
    
    	In the 60's and 70's people put aluminum siding on their houses,
    	and they're starting to take it off now.
    
    My prediction:  in 15 years, people will be just as offended with
    vinyl siding as they are with insulbrick now, and will be taking
    it off.
    

    
    
    Paint your house, you'll be happier, your neighbors will be happier,
    and the person you sell it to will be happier.
    
    
    -bill

    re .-1
    
    But would you paint my house several times for the price of vinyl
    siding?  :-)
    If that was the case, I wouldn't even consider vinyl siding.  It's
    not, unfortunately.

    My vote on vinyl siding is don't do it.
    Have you every seen a house that had a fire in it with vinyl
    siding. It traps the heat and smoke in to the point that a 
    small fire causes more damage from smoke than the fire did.
    Also wood is much nicer to look at.
    Steve

   re: .14
    
    Yea, I guess that's right.  You may not be able to pay someone to
    paint your house that many times, but you could do it yourself several
    times for the cost of vinyl.
    
    
    Still, vinyl is not all that attractive, and isn't as 'long lasting'
    as people make it out to be.
    
    
    -bill

    The estimate to put vinyl siding on my house was $13K before the
    promotional discount and $9K after.  I have a two-story with 5 bedrooms
    and two baths up.  How far would that go toward painting??
    
    BB

    I have better things to do than spend three months of weekends and
    hours after work painting my house.  Since having our house sided
    last summer we've had many, many compliments.  Of those comments
    none were negative.  I was told by a respected realtor that we'd
    get our money back, plus some by applying the vinyl siding.
    
    The cost, 10k, was much less expensive when compared to replacing 
    the clapboard siding and painting our 15 room duplex.  
    
    					Steve

    I guess it's just preference, but I still say vinyl siding is UGLY!
    
    Real wood clapboards or cedar shingles (painted or stained) are
    much better looking in my eye.  Also, as I've said before, when
    buying a house, I'm scared of vinyl siding.  You never know what
    has been covered up (eg: clapboards that needed replaced) when it
    was put on, and what damage you may need to repair later.
    
    Sort of like BONDO on a car.  It may look good, but it's covering
    up a mess.
    
    
    -bill

    I'm sure there are homeowners who use vinyl siding to cover up 
    a mess (I wish my neighbor would, his place, which is rented, 
    is an eyesore).  In our case, the layers of paint which have
    accumulated over 100 years would be nearly impossible to scrape
    off completely.  Our house was not sided to cover up rot or damage
    to the exterior.  
    
    Ideally, the entire clapboard should be painted or stained, i.e., 
    the backside.
    
    Obviously, vinyl siding would look gross in higher class neighborhoods.
    We do not have that dilemna to contend with.
    
    					Steve

      
    
            Is there a Paint which can be used to paint over vinyl?
    
    A friend was asking me this question because they re-did their kitchen
    and had a vinyl window put in and got a color to match the kitchen
    decor but realized it doesn't match the outside .
    
         has anyone ever had to paint vinyl? if so what is available
    for use?

    re: -1
    
    I "seem to recall" some process for "coloring" vinyl seat covers
    offeered in some matchbook campaign. Perhaps some place which
    repairs set covers (furniture, naugahyde covers, etc) might be able
    to make some suggestions; as perhaps some hobby stores (I've used
    'PLA' brand paints for plastic, but those were for plastic models).
    
    Is there any memory of WHO the dealer or manufacurer for the windows
    were ? (most "vinyl" is colored before processing), like
    nylon is. I hope this can help. 
    Bob
    

    I am looking for a source for VINYL SIDING for an addition to my
    house. The original was purchased from Harvey Industries and
    when I called them, they told me that they ONLY sell wholesale
    and I would have to find a contractor to do it.
    
    I can do it, BUT, I need a source for the EXACT style and color
    retail (I guess, wholesale preferrably).
    
    Does anyone know of a source or a friend who is in the business
    that would help out?
    
    mark
    

    Do you know the name of the siding? Alsco, Mitten etc.

    I am told that it is either MASTIC, WOLVERINE, or CERTAN-TEED
    (spelling?)
    
    Does anyone have a suggestion?
    
    Mark

    Sorry, I never heard of those brands.
                                         Ed

    Sorry for the late reply - hope it is not too late, just catching
    up on NOTES after vacation.  Where do you live ?  If you live near
    Marlboro, try B&T siding at 485-0673.  Two years ago, I tried to
    buy 18 square of siding for my house and most places told me that they
    sold wholesale only.  Then I found B&T - ask for Harold, he was very
    helpful.
    
    Mark
    

    Thanks for all your help!  I will call...
    
    Mark
    

    
    I recently bought a 2 family with vinyl siding circa 1969.  The
    siding still looks ok, and it hasn't cracked, as mentioned before.
    But there are a couple of areas near where there has been heavy human
    traffic over the past 17 years and there are sections of the siding
    which are broken, probably by kids playing and hitting the house
    with baseballs for instance.  I would like to replace these sections,
    but am afraid I won't be able to match to color.
    
         1.  Is it possible to buy a few sections on siding and corner
             pieces from some company for repairing it?
    
         2.  Since the color of the original siding is surely faded,
             is there any way to make the new sections "fade" a little
             too to get a match?  This assumes that the new panels are
             the same color as the original siding was when new.
    
    Steve
    

    Hmm.  Interesting discussion.  I recently put vinyl siding on
    my house.  I don't see how people can be comparing the cost of
    siding to the cost of paint or stain (talking DIY).  While
    vinyl siding is relatively cheap, it seems that painting would
    be considerably cheaper in most cases.

    On looks, I personally think vinyl siding looks better than a
    PAINTED house, but probably not better than a well-maintained
    STAINED house.  But I certainly don't think it looks GROSS!

    I'm sure it will take me a few years to discover all the tradeoffs.

            Rico

    Steve,
    
    I know that you can purchase individual pieces of corner and trim
    for vinyl siding, but I am not sure if you can get less than one
    square of siding.
    
    When installing a section in between two other sections, there is
    an invaluable tool - a zip tool, that makes this very easy.
    
    
    Mark
    

    
    Mark,
    
    thanks for the tip, but what is a zip tool?  is it available at
    hardware stores?
    
    Steve
    

    Steve,
    
    A zip tool is used when you are repairing a section of siding.  Since
    you will be adding a piece between two other pieces of siding, which
    are already nailed in place, you cannot install the new piece like
    you would when doing the entire wall.  Let's call the new piece of
    siding #2 and it will go above piece #1 and below piece #3.  First
    you hook the bottom of #2 to the top of #1, then nail #2, and finally
    hook the bottom of #3 over #2.  To hook the bottom of #3 over #2,
    you need to pull #3 down using the zip tool.  Start at one end and
    slide the zip tool along the bottom lip in #3, hooking it onto #2
    as you go.
    
    I am not sure if it is available at hardware stores - I got one
    when I purchased the siding.  In fact, if you like, you can borrow
    mine.
    
    
    Mark
    

    
    Mark:
    
    Thanks for the offer.  I'm not going to do this till next spring,
    cos it's a might chilly out right now.  If I can't get one locally
    I'll take you up on your offer next spring.
    
    Steve
    

      I would like to start looking for a reasonable contractor
    in the Worcester area to do renovations for me. I DIY'ed
    the whole interior of my home.... but I'd rather leave the 
    ouside to someone else. I need to have the house vinyl sided,
    get replacement windows throughout (22 windows), and have 
    the roof re-shingled. I will be putting in a slider and deck.
    Has anyone had this type of work done in the Worc. area? 
    I need the names of contractors and some of you pro's out
    there might even be able to give me a guesstimate. The house
    is a front/back full dormer cape w/ 6 rooms. Foundation size
    is ~ 30'x 28'. 
                       Thanks in advance for any helpful info. /BB
    
    also.... what is a good name in replacement windows?
    

    My best advice is to not go to a siding firm - they just sub out
    the work to someone they pick, not someone you have a chance to
    evaluate.  I had such a firm do 3 sides of my existing house, and
    planned to call them back when the addition was up to do the other
    3 sides. The guys they sent out did a schlockey job, were skimpy
    on nails, left a mess in my yard.  I said the above in passing to
    the guy doing the framing of the addition, and he said "Oh, well
    we do siding also" so I had him do it.
    
    Everyone can get the siding materials - I recommend Mastic brand
    from Beth Steel in terms of quality/thickness.  Get a good contractor
    who is concerned with everything being level and straight, and you
    are all set.
    
    I have no problems recommending Hayward Construction in Worcester;
    Dan Hayward is a good, honest, consciencous guy with a good crew
    interested in doing a good job.  He's in the white pages on Plantation
    Street.
    
    -reed
    

    I had just this (and more) done by Rasco out of Auburn or Milbury.
    They also sided my brother-in-law's house with vinyl.  I'm meeting
    with them again tonight to spec out a porch conversion and deck
    addition.  Call if you want more info but I don't think you'll find
    many in the area that are more highly recommended.
    
    Pete

    I'll put in a plug for the guy who sided my house and addition last
    fall... Phil Carmichael, in Hudson Ma.   He and his brother-in-law
    did a *super* job, and were very consciencious; cleaned up after
    every day's work, etc.   He offered a variety of brands of siding,
    and gave me 6 or 7 sample cases of each brand to pick from... this
    was very useful, as you can see & touch & bend actual pieces of
    the stuff, and it really eliminates a lot of the subjective nature
    of the process, such as the contractor's preference (which may be
    for reasons that you, the homeowner, don't care about).   If I recall,
    I picked one called "mastic", which I think is mfgd by Bethlehem
    Steel; it's got a realistic "wood-grain" appearance.   Anyway, the
    guy I'm talking about was really good; he gave me an estimate, and
    held to his price even when the job took longer than he thought
    it would, and I think he actually used more material than he estimated
    too.   Btw, I also had him make aluminum moldings to cover all the
    fascias and rake trim that had previously been painted wood... now,
    it's maintenance-free.  It's worth doing, esp. if you don't like
    having to repaint trim every other year!
    Jim
    

    Along the same lines, now I have the siding up in place.
    (I had a contractor friend buy it at harvey industries). The
    next question: Where can I get PLAIN WHITE Aluminum fascia and
    under-panels (that hang on the underside of the plywood
    between the front siding surface and the edge of the roof?)
    
    PLAIN WHITE ALUMIN parts should be: CHEAP, EASY TO FIND. YES????
    M
    

    Your contractor friend should be able to purchase vinyl soffit
    panels that you can install (with two pieces of J-trim - one on
    each edge).  For fascia, you have to buy a roll of aluminum and
    bend it to fit your particular application.
    
    
    Mark
    

    I Have a question I am planning to have my house vinly sided.
    The question is. It as clap-board siding on it now,it also as a few
    dry rot spots should I have the clap-boards taken off first or go
    right over them...  Clap-boards are not wood.
    	thanks for any help
    				Steve S
    I checked the other notes first it didn't say to take them off or
    not.

    Since dry rot is self-propogating, I would definitely suggest removing
    the affected areas and filling them in with something to provide
    proper backing for the vinyl.

    I had my house vinyl-sided last year and they went right over the
    clapboards, first with the styrofoam insulation, then the vinyl.
    I highly recommend going with the insulation, and get the 3/4" because
    the cost is not that much more than the 3/8".
    
    Your clapboard is not wood?  In that case, when you get estimates,
    let the contractors tell you it needs to be removed or not.  I know
    my neighbor wants to vinyl-side, but he has a type of shingle that
    cracks into pieces when nailed, so he'd have to remove them first.
    Removing will really hike the cost of the job.

If the clapboards have dry rot -- GET 'EM WAY THE HELL OUTA THERE!
But if they are not wood, how can they have dry rot?

If only small areas are rotted, it may well pay to replace them and put the
vinyl on top, rather than to strip the whole house.

    
    JUST SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT, BUT IF YOUR SIDING IS ALMOST LEVEL
    WITH YOUR WINDOW FRAMES THEN PUTTING SIDING OVER THE CLAPBOARDS
    WILL MAKE YOUR WINDOWS LOOK LIKE THEY ARE FRAMED IN WITH THE CHANNELING
    AND THE VINYL SIDING WILL BE LEVEL WITH YOUR WINDOW FRAMES.
    
    YOU MIGHT NOT MIND HOW THIS LOOKS BUT WE ARE DOING IT ON OUR HOUSE
    AND I WOULD RATHER TAKE OFF THE CLAPBOARDS BUT MY HUSBAND IS DOING
    IT AND OUR HOUSE IS VERY LARGE SO THAT IS THE EASIEST WAY.
    
    GOOD LUCK!! 

    Can anyone supply any information on insulated vinyl siding?
    Such as who makes it, difference in cost, difference in
    in insulating value between standard vs insulated vinyl, etc.
    
    Thanks.
    

    We had a bid of 2800$ from Sears to do the job with a lifetime warranty
    on the vinyl coated aluminium siding. They staple a �" high density
    foam over your current siding [our case masonite siding] to add
    a Rvalue to the house.
    
    Be careful to choose the colour of the siding as the siding will
    last and vinyl is hard to paint over if you choose a trendy colour.
                                  
    /cal

    
    	I have an 11 year old house which I will likely have vinyl-sided.
     The current siding is composite-hardboard clapboard, sometimes
    called 'Prime-Lap'(pegboard w/out the holes).  It, apparently, wasn't
    primed properly when it was first installed, because it has absorbed
    moisture in many spots and is so soft it resembles 'Play-Doh'.
    
    	I have rec'd 3 estimates to vinyl-side the house.  They range
    from $4.4K to $3.2K.  One includes removing the present siding,
    the others don't.  One would think that the most expensive quote
    is the one that includes removing the current siding, but, ironically,
    the opposite is true.  The contractor who gave me the most expensive
    estimate has stated that, when covered w/ the siding, the present
    siding will dry-out and further decay won't occur.  This is most
    critical because the door/window jambs and casings are just beginning
    to get moist in spots.  I've been playing 'phone-tag' with the 
    contractor who supplied the cheapest quote and, so, haven't gotten
    his opinion.  The other outfit seems to offer a 'middle-of-the-road'
    approach, removing the bad spots and putting 'filler' in to back
    the vinyl.
    
    	Any informed opinions, experiences, and/or facts relevant to
    the decision I must make would be appreciated.
    
    				Thanks,
    
    				Jim Craver

    
    
    	You could call a factory rep for their opinion.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    	I finally got ahold of the contractor who included removing the
    present siding in his proposal (see 1112.5).  He said he worked
    with the 'stuff' years ago and wouldn't feel comfortable covering
    it in the condition it's in.  Apparently, there is no steadfast
    rule as to what will happen if wet siding is covered, depends on
    who's doing the talking.  So, like the last reply suggests, why
    risk it?...and it's cheaper, too.  I can't imagine that the present
    siding would provide that much insulating value, and, besides, poly-
    styrene will be put on before the vinyl.  I will probably end-up
    with a better 'R' value, even with removal.
    
    	So now it's just a matter of talking to some of his previous
    customers, looking at his work, deciding on a color, and submitting
    the loan application.
    
    	Thanks for the replies.
    
    					Jim Craver
                                                  

    RE: .8
    
    You might want to make sure who is responsible for disposing of
    the removed material.  This may be a significant expense to you
    if the contractor isn't going to do it.

I'm considering vinyl siding for the maintenance and insulation properties.
     Has anyone personal experience on purchasing and installing the
    material?  Specifically, I have the following questions?
    
    1 - does the J channel come in different sizes?  For example, if
    you are installing over rigid insulation do you purchase the larger
    J channel to accept the rigid insulation as well as the siding?
     Or does the J channel also sit on top of the rigid insulation?
    
    2 - what types of rigid insulation have people used?  I have seen
    reference to 1" rigid, 1/4" rigid, and high density foam (which
    may be the same as the 1/4").
    
    3 - does the rigid insulation or high density foam cause moisture
    buildup?  Seems like it would.  Was anything done during installation
    to alleviate this?
    
    4 - any tricks, hints, or invaluable lessons learned?  A different
    note referenced the ZIP tool for replacements is an example of what
    I'm looking for.  What about the strater piece and j channels. 
    Anything unique or tricky?  How about cutting the material?  I've
    seen reference to saws, knives, and scissors (industrial).  Any
    special saw blades recommended?  
    
    Stan
    
    

>                   -< Anyone with installation experience? >-
    
    Yes.  I just finished installing the vinyl siding on the exterior
    of the family room I'm building.  It was about 800 square feet,
    with windows, sills, doors, inside corners, outside corners, etc.
    Lots of fun :-).
    
    I had the rest of the house done about 4 years ago, and after watching
    the installation, I figured I could save a bundle by doing it myself.
    
>   1 - does the J channel come in different sizes?  For example, if
>   you are installing over rigid insulation do you purchase the larger
>   J channel to accept the rigid insulation as well as the siding?
>   Or does the J channel also sit on top of the rigid insulation?
    
    I have only seen one size J channel used.  That is not to say that
    there are not other sizes, but they would probably be special order
    items.
    
    Usually the way it is installed is on top of the rigid insulation;
    along with the siding itself.
    
>   2 - what types of rigid insulation have people used?  I have seen
>   reference to 1" rigid, 1/4" rigid, and high density foam (which
>   may be the same as the 1/4").
    
    Since most of the installations are over existing siding, you usually
    have to stick with 1/2" or less (thickness).  Any thicker and you
    wind up with it looking very strange around doors and windows.
    
    Now, if you are doing new construction, or taking off the old siding,
    you probably want to choose a thickness that will let the vinyl
    (about 1/2" thick) come out the same amount as the original siding.
    
    BTW, if you are installing all new windows and doors, forget all
    of the above; and remember to order thicker frames to allow for
    the additional insulation.    
    
>   3 - does the rigid insulation or high density foam cause moisture
>   buildup?  Seems like it would.  Was anything done during installation
>   to alleviate this?
    
    No real experience here.  Because of staying with the existing windows
    and doors, I wasn't able to install it without things looking funny.
    Instead, I simply used double foil backed kraft paper (kraft paper
    with foil on both sides).
    
>   4 - any tricks, hints, or invaluable lessons learned?  A different
>   note referenced the ZIP tool for replacements is an example of what
>   I'm looking for.  What about the strater piece and j channels. 
>   Anything unique or tricky?  How about cutting the material?  I've
>   seen reference to saws, knives, and scissors (industrial).  Any
>   special saw blades recommended?
    
    A zip tool is not all that important if you are doing a fresh
    installation.  However, if you are adding on, it is invaluable.
    They are usually available from the siding supplier at around $10.
    
    As far as holding it on, I just used some of the 1-1/2" aluminum
    roofing nails I had left over from putting on the shingles.  (I
    imaging I have around 30 lbs left; I got a 50 lb box; oops.)
    
    As for cutting, I have the following comments:
    
    	Siding:
    
    Cutting the siding is pretty straight forward.  I went out and bought
    a 200 tooth (plywood cutting) blade for my radial arm saw.  I did
    most of the cutting with that.  You could also use a cut-off saw
    or a saw-buck.  Just remember to get side extensions.  Dealing with
    12' pieces of siding will get interesting without them.  It is fairly
    easy to set up a jig for cutting the necessary angles, when doing
    the gable ends of the building.
    
    Also, don't try and do any triming of the vinyl (trim off pieces
    less than 1/2"), you will usually end up shattering the end of the
    piece leaving a 1/4" to 1" piece missing.  Use a pair of snips or
    a utility knife instead.
    
    Lastly, you'll have to remember to notch the ends of the cut pieces
    to that they will overlap (on the same row) existing pieces.  It
    is a little hard to discribe; just take a look at a piece out of
    the box, and you'll see how to do it.
    
    These should NOT be firmly nailed down.  The siding will expand
    and contract with temperature changes.  If they are nailed firmly
    down, it will do evil things to the siding; buckle and eventually
    crack.  Instead, when nailing it, leave about 1/4" of the nail exposed.
    Also, it should be nailed every 18 to 24 inches.
    
    	J channel (and notching the siding):
    
    The easiest method I have found is to use a pair of avaition snips.
    (Cut both sides of the "J", and then the bottom of the "J".)
    These are usually used for cutting sheet metal.  The compound action
    makes it real easy to trim up pieces and cut the J channel.  Note
    that these snips come in three types: left cutting, straight cutting,
    and right cutting; get the straight cutting type.  You could use
    industrial scissors, but they would be a *lot* more awkward.
    
    When installing the J channel around the windows, make sure that
    the top and bottom pieces overlap the side pieces; and stick out
    about an 1/8" beyond that.  Then notch the lower (for the top and
    upper for the bottom) portion of the J to allow water to run out.
    
    When installing the siding in the J channel make sure that there
    is at least a 1/8" gap at *both* ends to allow for movement of the
    siding.
    
    These should be firmly nailed down.
    
    	Inside and outside corners:
    
    These can also be cut with the power saw; of whatever type you are
    using.  Note that in most cases, inside corners are not used (and
    are special order items).  In their place, simply use two pieces
    of J channel butted together.
    
    These should be firmly nailed down.
    
    In all cases, minor trimming of the vinyl (siding, J channel, or
    corners) can be accomplished with a utility knife.
    
    Last comment on installation:  If you are planning to do some form
    of vinyl or aluminum trim, soffit (sp?) and facia, have it done first.
    This allows the trim to be tucked behind the J channel rathern than
    simply between it and the window/door frame.
    
    As far as the actual siding goes, look at all of them carefully.
    Most lines have about the same colors offered, but the thickness
    of the material can very greatly.  (Bird & Son has the thickest
    that I have seen; so far.  They are also about the most expensive.)
    
    Also, make sure that either you are very good at estimating how
    much material you will need, or that your supplier is willing to
    buy it back from you.  I got stuck with about 300 square feet,
    a box and a half, of the Bird & Son because the supplier estimated
    incorrectly and was not willing to buy it back.  (Sigh;  live and
    learn.)
    
    I probably missed a few things, but this should give you a starting
    point.  Let me know if you have any more questions.
    
    - Mark

    RE: .1
    
    I have always stayed away from the vinyl coated aluminum.  I rented
    a house that had that stuff on it and it was forever getting dented.
    It was also ripped when the owner's father-in-law backed a stake
    bed truck into it.  It looked to be a real job to repair.  Granted,
    it may not happen often; but when it does...
    
    Solid vinyl, on the other hand, is pliable enough that with a zipping
    tool, it is very easy to remove a damaged piece.  It is also very
    easy to marry into when making additions.
    
    Both look good, but it seems to me that the solid vinyl stuff is
    a little more rugged.  (This is one man's humble opinion; I don't
    want to start any religious wars :-)
    
    - Mark

    I recently had some vinyl siding applied to my house. I purchased
    all of the materials myself and hired a company called PJK out of Dracut,
    Mass. (617-957-4157) to apply it. They came in and did the job in
    about a week. The cost was extremely reasonable and the job was
    well done with much attention paid to detail. They were especially
    careful to prevent water traps.
    
    In summary I would go with the vinyl again. It has improved the
    total appearance of the house, and didn't put a great strain on
    my wallet. Also I would like to highly recommend PJK for anyone
    looking to have vinyl siding applied, by the way they are a general
    remodeling company so you may want to give them a call for a bid
    on whatever your thinking of having done.
    

    I am not sure if I would do the vinyl siding now cause the wood
    shingles are still in very good shape. However, I would like to
    know how big is you house ( how much area for the vinyl ) and how
    much did it cost for the material and for the labor. If the price
    is low enough, I may have it done. You know, when you reach a certain
    age, it become more difficult to climb up 25 ft to paint the house
    every few years. My house is a 2-story dutch colonial type.

    I am also considering vinyl siding and have a few questions for
    you.
    
    Where did you buy the vinyl siding? Are there any manufacturers
    you would recommend over others? Did any of the contractors discourage
    you from buying your own materials? I would assume they make more
    money from a total package deal.
    
    As 1337.1, I am interested in how much you paid for material and
    labor as well as the size of your house.
    
    Thanks for the information.
    
    regards,
    
    Lou

    My house required 13 square (1 sq. = 100 sq. ft.) of vinyl along
    with other necessary pieces like J-channel, starter strip, undersill,
    vented louvers and outside corners.
    
    I chose to purchase Gold Bond vinyl siding for the following reasons:
    
    	1- it matched the siding of a recently completed addition.
    
    	2- It was guaranteed in WRITING by Gold Bond against a number
    	   manufacturer related defects and some of the more common weather
    	   related problems.
    
    	3- The distributor (VYCO inc.) is located in Salem N.H., within a
    	   20 minute drive from my house. Also VYCO gives you a 5% discount
    	   for paying in cash( or personal check ).
    
    Total cost for all vinyl materials was appx. $810.00
    Total labor charge was $1500.00 just to apply the vinyl. This leaves
    me with the task of cleanup, caulking all necessary places and painting
    the trim.
    
    Good luck with your decision(s)!

    
    It appears that you didn't apply the vinyl to the trim. Don't they
    have vinyl to cover the trim and gutter ? What's the reason not
    covering the trim ?
    

    The trim work on a vinyl insatallation is typically done in a very
    thin guage aluminum. The aluminum is bent to the appropriate shape
    for the entity being covered. I opted not to apply the aluminum
    around the trim, soffit, facia, and rake boards. This decision was
    based purely on the cost associated with the task. I was told that
    the cost of applying the aluminum could equal or exceed the cost of 
    applying the vinyl. Besides I just painted all of the trim work
    last year :^) !

    
    Jim,
    
    Since you are planning to remove the present siding this would
    be an excellent opportunity to examine the structure for rot, mold,
    etc. 
    			--Th�r�se (on vt100 read as Therese w/accents)
    

    We recently signed with Carlton Siding in Framingham to put vinyl
    Esclad siding on our house. Has anyone heard of the company or had
    any experience with them?  The product is the closest to a clapboard
    appearance of all the brands.

	What kind of tool can you use for trimming vinyl siding
	accurately? I need to trim the siding around a stove vent
	I installed. A razor isn't sharp enough. Tin snips aren't
	accurate enough to make a nice straight line. Any suggestions?

    I have found for the most part that a sharp hacksaw is the easiest
    way to cut vinyl sideing. A razor doesn't do it, nor any power tool
    I have tried, without destroying the sideing.

    
    
    I use a plywood blade installed backward on any power saw. It
    grinds rather than cut the vnyl. Works well, I just reinstalled
    a square over the weekend.
    
    wayne
     

    Having recently install about 4 squares on my family room, there
    are three things you need when doing large areas:
    
    	1.  "J-hook" tool for unzipping existing siding.  For small
    	    areas, not having one may not be a big problem.
    
    	2.  Avaition snips.  Also called compound snips, these beasts
    	    are normally used to cut sheet metal, but they work fine
    	    on vinyl siding.  There are three kinds: straight cut, left
    	    cut, and right cut (usually they also have color coded
    	    handles).
    
    	3.  As stated in .2, a plywood cutting blade for large cuts.
    	    In my case, I got a 200 tooth 10" blade for my radial arm
    	    saw.
    
    In some cases, simply scoring the siding and then bending it back
    and forth may be sufficient for a "cut".
    
    - Mark

    Isn't that what molding is for?  Don't they make metal donuts you
    slip over the pipe to hide the crummy job you did cutting?  No pro
    would horse around making the hole look perfect.
    
    -Bob

    Not knowing the sizes these things come in, don't know
    if this will help, but we just used a hole saw to put a
    dryer vent through.  Made a nice neat cut (until we hit
    the sill we'd just replace - but that's another story...)
    

    
    WANTED
    
    INFORMATION ON INSTALLING VINYL SIDING ON A 22' X 26' GARAGE OR
    HAVING IT INSTALLED BY A PROFESSIONAL.  ANYONE GIVE ME AN IDEA
    WHAT IT WOULD COST ME TO BUY THE MATERIAL AND DO IT MY SELF VERSUS
    HAVING SOMEONE DO IT FOR ME.  I LIVE IN THE MILFORD, N.H. AREA
    AND WOULD APPRECIATE ANY INFORMATION OR PEOPLE YOU WOULD RECOMMEND.
    
    THANKS
    DON
    

    
    
    	I just did my garage this past summer with about the same
    dimensions. All the materials cost me about $700 dollars. I got
    a quote from someone to do the job and it was $1300.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    I did my 14X18 addition with aluminum siding, which is comparably
    priced, I paid $453 for all materials, plus I have some left over,
    I was quoted a price of $1800 to do the job. It didn't take too
    long to install, the vinyl siding will be a little easier to install
    as it is easy to bend...
    
    I live in Nashua if you want to take a looksee of have any other
    questions..
    
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    I am planning to do v-siding on my 2 story house. The top of the
    second story is about 25 feet off the ground. I am not scare of
    height ( I painted the house a few years ago with a 32' ladder ).
    But I am concern if the installation can be done by one person,
    or it really requires 2 person to properly handle the long vinyl
    stips.
    

Also see notes 113,437,1244,1337,1691 and 1718 for more information on vinyl 
siding.

Paul

	Is there any value to used vinyl siding?

	I've got a 200+ colonial whose previous owner had wrapped in vinyl 
	siding two years ago.  I will be removing the stuff this summer.
	The siding is in fine shape but it is doing a number on the old
	clapboards underneath.

	Is it worth saving this stuff and offering it to someone who has a 
	ranch or a split?  The house is 38 X 40 two stories plus a full-length
	porch so there may be enough for two ranches.

					-=Dennis

I'd like to sell some too!

We're in process of buying a large 90 year old Victorian with vinyl siding 
covering asphalt covering wood clapboards.  I plan to strip both layers off,
so if 5 year old vinyl siding is worth anything I'd like to know!

Steve

    my older brother is buying a house that has vinly siding in need
    of repair.  i'm pretty sure it's white, but i'm not sure what width.
    
    if what you (.0, .1) have is similar to what he has, i'm sure he
    could use some.
    
    is it worth it to carefully remove the stuff so that it can be used
    again?  you may want to find someone who wants it and let them remove
    it.  i'm sure they'd be careful...
    
    bs
    

    
    
    
             Does anyone out there know how to clean semi-transparent
         stain off of vinyl siding?   
    
         A victim of staining...

    Why are you removing the vinyl siding?  I thought it was supposed
    to be maintenance-free.  What is it doing to the clapboard siding?
    
    I have an 88 year old colonial with vinyl siding.  I can only see
    a small piece of the clapboard where the gas meter is and it seems
    to be ok.  The section I can see has some paint chipping off.
    
    Vinyl siding doesn't need painting.
    
    I do prefer the look of real clapboards, but I don't know if I want
    to just remove the vinyl that is there now.  I have white siding.
    
    How much does it cost to have a hip-roof colonial painted these
    days?
    
    Ed..
    

    re .3:
	Why remove vinyl?

	According to that handyman guy in the Globe, it's a common problem
	to have serious ventilation problems beneath the vinyl siding --
	so serious that the sheathing can rot.

	Besides, it's ugly (well, maybe not as ugly as dented aluminum).

Hi,    
   
     What are you opinions on painting verse's having vinyl siding applied
    on an older 3 family house. Presently there are painted cedar shakes
    that are in need of a major paint job. To have the house painted
    it will cost me between $2000 and $3000. To have vinyl siding applied
    it will cost between $7000 and $8000. The house has been painted
    twice in the last 7 years. It seems like 3 years is all the house
    will go before the peeling and flaking starts again. I hear alot
    about the new vinyl siding on how durable and well made it is. What
    do you think ?
      For added info, the price for the vinyl siding also includes all
    the trim pieces and 20 vinyl shutters. Do you think I will get the
    money back on the siding if and whenever the house is sold ?? I
    hear that most prospective landlords are looking for the most
    maintenance free house they can find which should mean that vinyl
    siding would be a good selling point on a multiple family,right????
     One other question, will I be able to deduct 2/3's of the paint
    job or vinyl siding on my taxes. I presently live in one of the
    apartments... Any comments greatly aprreciated...
    
                                    Thanks
    
                            
    

I can't help you with the economic considerations, but you should be aware
that there are �sthetic considerations as well.  If your house has any sort
of fancy trim (at windows, doors, eaves, etc.) it's very difficult to
reproduce it faithfully in vinyl or aluminum.  The usual approach is to box
it in, giving the house a squared-off, characterless look.  (Siding salesmen 
might refer to this look as sleek and modern). 

In theory, a sensitive, well-planned siding job can preserve much of an old 
house's detail and character.  All too often, though, siding jobs have a 
reputation for slap-it-up, square-it-off remuddling.

Besides, paint peeling and flaking after only three years sounds like you 
have moisture problems, and if they've been going on for awhile, you may 
have structural problems.  Residing the house may cover up the symptoms 
without finding or fixing the cause.

    
    If you do go with vinyl siding, please don't get rid of all that
    fancy wood trim.  It can really destroy the looks of a beautiful
    old house.  Just take a drive through some of the older communities
    and see how ugly some of those formerly beautiful old homes now
    look.
    
    What kind of paint is on the house?  Latex or oil?  Flat or semi?
    Did some idiot paint the house with latex on top of oil (like
    *my* house)? Most people paint a house with flat paint, but an oil 
    semi-gloss will generally hold up much longer.  

    I have seen a couple of older homes resided with new clapboard or
    shingles and then stained.  Stain doesn't peel like paint, so it
    looks nicer longer, and when you have to redo it, there's no scraping
    involved.  There's also the possibility of removing the paint -
    chemically or by blasting - and then staining.  Cedar is nice wood,
    and if it's in good condition, it's worth investigating.
    
    -tm
    

first, i think 2 to 3k for a paint job is cheap; it probably wouldn't last
1 year.  7 to 8k is probably close for siding but more is likely.  shutters
can be purchased after and put up cheap by yourself or a handyman. 

i think vinyl siding is VERY durable and trouble free.  this doesn't
include other things like rot, termites, ants, etc.  these things must be 
taken care of in the typical manner.

i think resale will handle the full cost of siding.  3 families are 
basically investment property; always were, always will be.  many weren't
built with a lot of style or excellant workmanship (a lot were).  anyway, 
if it's a real charmer you might want to worry about losing the detail.  
but if you're thinking about resale value (and a mighty strong selling 
point) i'd give the siding serious consideration.

what i did on my circa 1900 house was white vinyl and green shutters 
(traditional).  there was no trim that couldn't be covered exactly with 
custom fit aluminum (get decent workmanship).  except the beautiful, big,
front porch; so i left it painted.  i consulted several experts and the
general conclusion was that saving the painted surface was terribly
expensive to do right and a waste of time to do cheap. 
                            
craig    

    In the process of re-staining our deck this summer, some of the
    brown, oil-base stain splashed on our yellow vinyl siding.  I've
    attempted to remove it with paint thinner but to no avail.  Are
    there any other products I'm missing that might do the job?

    <Bug and tar remover>
    When I was staining my deck, I got stain on the siding and on my
    car as well.  I was able to get it off the car and vinyl siding
    with bug and tar remover made for cars.
    
    mike
    

    
    Moderator:
    
    	Please place in appropriate place if you don't think it should
    be a separate note.  I didn't find one that it seem to fall under!
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    I (we) recently purchased a house where the inspector told us that
    we should put in soffit vents. ok. fine, we've been procrastinating
    because we're not sure how to attack it  (even though we've read
    note #182)...well anyways, my husband decided to look at the existing
    attic vent and found to to our dismay that the person who did the
    vinyl siding for the previous owner decided to cover the vents up
    instead of siding around them!!! We couldn't believe they did that.
    Anyways now we figure that we had better cut the hole up for the
    vents.  I just wanted to make sure with you experts here, do we
    simply cut the hole up? is it as simple as that? What can we use
    to cover the edge of the siding after cutting? can we get a hold
    of some vinyl borders or something? what kind of tool should we
    be using? a hand saw or one of those electrical ones (can't remember
    the name)?  
    
    What's worst is that it makes me wonder how long it's been like
    that and whether the moisture during that time did any damage!
    We figure after fixing the existing vents we'll put in soffits.
    The thing is that we have vinyl on the eves also and again, not sure
    what to use to cut it, note #182 indicated that it is hard to cut
    all those holes!  Please give advice for either vent questions!
    Thanks. sorry again if these are repeated questions.
    

    Now that it's dry, probably nothing short of paint remover will
    touch it.  I don't think paint remover will hurt the vinyl, but
    try a little bit someplace first to make sure.  You can also
    scrape carefully, and get most of it, although that gets to be
    rather tedious after a while.

    I assume the vent you are trying to uncover is at one of the peaks of
    the house.  The best way to tackle to problem is to remove the pieces
    of siding around the vent, install some J-channel pieces around the
    vent, cut the old siding to fit, and re-install it.
    
    To remove the siding, you need something called a zip tool (available
    where vinyl siding is sold).  Buy a piece of J-channel which will match
    the color of your existing siding.  To cut the siding, use a pair of
    snips or a sharp utility knife.
    
    Don't know where you're located but you can buy the zip tool and
    J-channel at Maki's in Leminister MA.  You may also want to check out
    the vinyl siding notes in this file for some other tips.
    
    -willie

         We had our house sided with vinyl about 3 years ago and the
         contractor who did it has retired.

         Some of the siding on one end of the house seems to be
         loosening up, as if the siding has expanded in the vertical
         dimension.  One area is so bad that one strip is no longer
         locked into the one below it and blows in the wind.

         Is this something I should be able to repair myself?  Amy
         hints/tricks?

         Thanks,
         Pete

    Can anyone give me an idea of how much it costs to have
    vinyl siding installed on a per square foot basis?
    
    I am looking for a general price representative of the 
    materials, trim work, labor, etc.
    
    I have an addition to be vinyl sided with an area of
    approx. 300 sq.ft. of actual siding needed.
    
    Thanks.  Mark Clement.
    
    btw, if you can recommend anyone in Milford MA area,
    please do!
    
    

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
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continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I want to put vinyl siding on a small, 1 story, cinder block house.
    Anyone have any experience in doing a job like this? I guess I would
    need to put furring strips up to level the walls and nail the siding
    to these. Any advise is appreciated.

    I saw furring strips used in Littleton on a steel building/poured
    foundation then covered with vinyl siding.  Looked reasonable to
    me.

    
    If you're going to do this, I'd suggest you put a sealer on the
    cinderblocks first. The sealer will prevent termintes from finding
    cracks and comming into the house or the furingstrips which the
    siding will be attached to..
    
    Mike

      Also,  this  is a GREAT time to increase the thermal efficiency of
      the house by installing rigid insulation under the siding  between
      the  furring strips.  1/2" insulation will fit with just about any
      furring strips.  If you use "2 by" lumber (perhaps 2 by 3) you can
      fit 1" or even 1" + 1/2".

      Not  only  will  this give you a BIG increase in insulation value,
      but the block walls will now be  INSIDE  the  insulation  envelope
      where they can act as thermal mass to reduce the temperature swing
      between night and day.

    Thanks for the ideas. I had'nt thought about the termites or the
    insulation. This is a very small, 1-story house. A local dealer
    advertised vinyl siding for $44.00/100 sq'., so if I mess up some,
    it's not going to break me. Getting the furring strips up will
    probably be the worst of it and trimming around windows/doors
    might be tricky. Anyone have any further input will be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    Art

    Get a nail gun to put up the firing strips.  It will drive the nails
    into the block and save you from having to bang all those nails.
    
    To put up the insulation, use adhesive in a chalking tube.  A small
    amount should be enough.  It is not going anywhere and provides
    no structural support.  I don't really think you need any means to
    make stick to the structure because the vinyl siding should hold
    it place.

    re:3
    
    	I believe the thermal mass applies only if you have exposed
    cider block walls. From what I've read, you reduce the effectiveness
    of this thermal mass significantly if you put a framed wall on the
    inside. This is especially so if the inside wall is insulated.
    
    	Ray

              <<< TALLIS::S2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]REAL_ESTATE.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< Real Estate - Put Ads in #19 >-
================================================================================
Note 2062.0                  Insulite for siding????                   5 replies
2EASY::DRURY                                         15 lines  12-SEP-1989 20:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A question about building materials.  I'm currently in negotiations
    with a builder who has a specific design in mind and has outlined the
    materials he wishes to use.  For the siding he has specified using 
    insulite.  I have heard this is a material similar to pressboard
    and that it is not of the best quality.  I have heard it can buckle
    and warp after a few years.  He states that insulite of 10 to 15
    years ago was of poor quality and that it is better now.  Does any
    one have any info concerning insulite?  
      What I would like to do is replace the insulite siding with vinyl
    siding and a tyvex wrap.  Any idea on prices of these materials?
      Also he plans on using aspinite for the outside walls.  I have 
    heard plywood is a reasonable material for the outside walls.  The
    builder tells me that aspinite is just like plywood, but manmade
    and less expensive.  Sounds like pressboard again too me.  Any one
    farmiliar with aspinite?  Any info would be greatly appreciated.
    
    					bill                          

    
    My whole development in Pepperell, Mass. was sided in Insulate.
    In 5 years, half of the houses had warped or chipped siding. Within
    7 years people were pulling off their siding because of the
    deteriorization of the siding. (Rot and chipping). The houses are
    now 10-12 years old and most houses have been resided. there are
    about 40 houses. I don't care what the contractor says, I would
    NEVER consider it again.. 
                                                Bill

    My house is Insulite sided.  It is just 7 years old.  I'm not crazy
    about it, because it is wide siding, but it has held up well.  I think
    the important part is that it must be installed well, with proper
    caulking in all the right places, and it must be primed and painted.  I
    have see what happens to it when it gets wet (some scraps were left in
    the back yard)... it turns to mush.  With a good coat of paint, it
    looks fine.  
    
    If your alternative is vinyl siding, I'd say it's six of one, half
    dozen of another.  Vinyl siding has the same problems, in that it falls
    down, chips or breaks easily.  I'm seen a lot of bad vinyl siding
    installations that have problems after the first year.
    
    Perhaps more important than the two materials is the quality of the
    installation.  I don't know if vinyl siding lasts longer if applied
    well.
    
    If you are building your dream house and plan to stay there a long
    time, forget both and go with real wood siding.
    
    Elaine
    

    re: .0
    I too am building a house and I am using aspenite for the exterior
    sheathing.  As long as the aspenite stays dry it is at least as strong
    as plywood.  At a savings of around $4.00 per sheet, it seemed worth
    it.  I would check the sheathing during the construction process to
    ensure that it remains dry.
    
    Dan

    What's the deal with vinyl siding chipping and breaking?
    
    I've got it, and so do most of the homes in neighborhood.  I've
    never seen or heard of this before.
    
    Myself, I opted for the vinyl to greatly reduce the maintenance
    work.  Sure, you have to wash it occasionally, but it won't rot
    if you don't.
    
    Go with the vinyl.
    
    Lee

    
    One good rock thrown from a power mower will punch a good sized hole in
    it. I haven't seen chipping or breaking before, though.
    
    CdH
    

    Hi Bill; interesting running into you here ^:)!
    
    I share the opinions of others on the Insulite, and would also
    encourage you to go with *REAL* wood clapboards.  I don't denounce
    vinyl as some folks do, but nothing is maintenance free and vinyl
    or any siding really has more minuses than plusses (in my book).
   
    Also, someone else's comment about vinyl is worth considering. There
    are different grades of this siding too.
    
    For clapboards the two materials of choice are ceder and hemlock.
    You then stain the clapboards with anything from a semi-transparent
    to a solid color stain.  Yes, there is maintenane, but with stain
    you just simply recoat; unlike paint where you have to scrape, and,
    and worry about all kinds of other crap.  Stain just simply fades.
    
    The major advantages of clapboard over any of the synthetic stuff
    first is looks, and the fact that vinyl is a vapor barrier.    This is one big
    problem with siding; it traps moisture and condensation between
    the sheathing and the siding.  Often over time, you'll remove the
    stuff for some reason or another and will see signs of rot caused
    by this problem.  Wood also doesn't dent as sidings do, and it's
    a whole lot easier to change the color of wood too.  Clapboards
    should last a good 30 years. 
    
    Wood clapboards and Tyvec or Typar are your best choice -- the cost
    is going to be about the same as doing a good vinyl siding job.

    Insulite that is chaulked well, painted continually and applied
    at say 4" to the weather looks like clapboards and 'will' last. It
    has a problem when it isn't kept sealed properly. With vinyl you
    don't have to paint, but when you wash it make sure it doesn't 
    leave a rusty residue from metallic water, especcially on white
    vinyl. Also, I think vinyl is asthetically less appealing than wood
    when viewed at close range. Cedar or hemlock clapboards or shingles
    come in many grades and are probably the most durable. With shingles,
    later exterior additions or renovations are easier to integrate
    into the existing siding. If you are going to use a semi-clear or
    clear stain on cedar, use stainless steel nails to avoid the
    nails 'bleeding' through. Aspinite is fine if it kept dry, which
    should be the case with a proper siding application. Not that what
    I think should matter but I would get red cedar, 'A' grade and if
    it were clapboards, get the long lengths too; put on pine freeze
    and corner boards; maybe put a 'fan' on the gables and use a semi-clear
    stain with the stainless steel nails. That would look nice and wouldn't
    cost much more than vinyl.
    
    							Good Luck,
                                                        Paul
                                        			
    					
    
    					

    re:  wood clapboards.......just simply stain........it simply fades
    
    Ha!  Just simply stain?  What's so simple about it?  It simply fades?
    It sure as heck does, especially after the first application!  I've
    seen houses with transparant stain needing restaining in only 1
    year!  My own house, newly sprayed twice with a solid stain, again
    needed staining after only 2 years!  While doing this `simple' chore
    of staining by myself, my favorite chant was "never again, get vinyl
    siding"!
    
    I'll make a deal anyone who loves and needs the real thing- you
    can have every square foot of my clapboard.  Simply rip it off my
    house and replace it with vinyl!  I'll even help!  I'll even throw
    in my brand new 32' type II ladder so you can simply restain again
    in a few short years!
    
    :-)
    
    John

    I have vinyl siding on my house and have had it for about five years.
    Its a new house.  The vinyl is very strong, has not chipped or broken,
    has breathing holes underneath so that vapor is not trapped, looks
    similar to wood (has a wood grain to it), has a 50-year guarantee,
    and most of all, does not have to be painted or stained every few
    years.
    
    If you want a good-looking house with the least amount of work
    afterwards, go with vinyl.  What a relief, not to have to paint
    the whole house.  Unfortunately, my windows aren't all vinyl, and
    this year I had to scrape and paint them (an under and over coat).
    
    So, if you want to save yourself maintenance work, go with vinyl!
    
    /Dick

    Why mess with siding at all, wood or non-wood?  Use brick.  It requires
    NO maintenance and lasts forever.  No painting, priming, cleaning
    scraping, no dents, no holes, no rot, no bugs.  Worry free forever.

    Don't like bricks?  Use Stucco.  It is now done by applying Styrofoam
    and then covering with a cement base and then a color coat.  Can you
    say it acts as insulation as well as siding?  I knew you could. It can
    be painted to change the color and start the maintenance cycle if you
    want.
    
    There are enough projects around the house that need constant
    maintenance that you don't need to build one more into the house.

    Brick?   NO MAINTENANCE?  Maybe you'd like to come over and repoint my
    brick chimney.   Of  course,  you have to chip out all the old cement
    first.  I'll even give you a chisel.
    
    I wish I had a vinyl sided chimney, I can tell you.
    
    gjd  :^)
    

    Love my vinyl. especially when my neighbor shells out $2,000 to
    have his insulite repainted. I have been in my house 12 years. 
    Purchased it new with vinyl. I have had to paint the trim, but
    that's all. Neighbor's had his house painted once, and it now
    needs another coat.
    
    If it's less maintenance you desire, then go vinyl. 
                       
    Steve
    
    

    
    A couple of replies back:
    
    Even though it is done, you should not spray stain -- that's probably
    why it lasts only two years.  A stain has to saturate the wood
    thoroughly, and if you spray it's almost impossible to do, without
    applying about five topcoats. 
    
    Stucco provides no free lunch from maintenance in New England either!
    My father-in-laws house is done with stucco, and every two years
    or so, he is calling someone out to point and repair the damn stuff.
    It tends to crack sort of in the same fashion as heavily textured
    ceilings.

    I'd like  to  get  an  update  from people on how their vinyl siding is
    holding up.  I don't want to start a rathole about vinyl esthetics.
    
    Do you still  like  it  ?    Would  you put it up again?  Are there any
    do-it-yourself installation tips which  you  learned  since  your  last
    notes?
    
    There were some people who  were  going  to take their vinyl siding off
    and put on wood claboard.   Did  you go through with it?  Did the vinyl
    siding cause rot in the sheathing during the time it was on?
    
    Also, I've gotten a price of $90 for 200 square feet of "Freedom" brand
    vinyl siding (made by Gold Bond building products)  at Builders square.
    Som'vil lumber has 200 square feet of Canadian made  siding  for  $104.
    I'd  be  interested  on  any other price/brand/where-to-buy info anyone
    has.
    
    Finally, there was a note on vinyl siding which disappeared completely,
    and I think  it  had some good info on where to buy siding.  If someone
    still has this info I'd be very interested.
    
    George Dvorak
    

    
>    There were some people who  were  going  to take their vinyl siding off
>    and put on wood claboard.   Did  you go through with it?  Did the vinyl
>    siding cause rot in the sheathing during the time it was on?
    
     I once talked to a friend (Charlie Sharpe) who was in the siding business
     for about 15-20 years.  When aluminum/vinyl siding first came on the 
     market (steel siding was first used in 1948) there was much speculation 
     about rot behind the siding.  He's had a certain number of jobs where 
     people wanted older siding replaced or just plain removed.  Charlie said 
     he'd never seen a case of rot behind the siding.  (This presumes it was
     installed over painted woodwork, or a foil blanket was placed over the
     woodwork.  I think I've seen new homes where siding was installed over
     a Tyvek blanket.)

>    Also, I've gotten a price of $90 for 200 square feet of "Freedom" brand
>    vinyl siding (made by Gold Bond building products)  at Builders square.
>    Som'vil lumber has 200 square feet of Canadian made  siding  for  $104.
>    I'd  be  interested  on  any other price/brand/where-to-buy info anyone
>    has.
    
    
     Georgia Pacific carries a line of vinyl siding that I think is
     oriented towards DIY.  I don't know about price.
    

Since this question has not been answered, and I have a related question...

What is the best cleaning agent(s) to use on white vinyl siding 
and recommended procedure for cleaning:

   - bird dropping stains  (an ongoing problem!)
   - wood stain smudges  (from Thompsons Waterseal)
   - paint spatters

Thanks for your suggestions.  - Paul

    i want to add a window and a gable vent to my garage with
    vinyl siding.
    
    what is the proper procedure for doing that ..?
    
    do you take off the siding cut your hole in the wall, put up the 
    j-channel then cut the vinal to size..
    
    or can you somehow cut though the vinyl and plywood at the same time
    then add the j-channel somehow...
    
    

I have a new door in my house which has an eliptical window above it.  This
is the window that looks a little like a semi-circle, only stretched to the
sides a bit more.

How should I handle fitting the vinyl around this?  I know for a square or
straight area I would put J-channel and then fit the siding into it.  However,
is there a special J-channel equivalent for my situation?

Ed..

Ed,

You use a piece of the J channel but notch it at intervals to
bend the channel to conform with the bend of the top of the
window or just use flashing around the top of the window to drain
water away from the siding.

calvin

    I've searched for an appropriate place for this reply...and this seems
    it.  Moderators will move me if not, I presume.
    
    I am going to apply vinyl siding to my home in Concord, MA in the very
    near future... I've done it before, and will never, never pay to have
    it done again (it's far to easy).
    
    But, unlike Texas (where I recently moved from) I am having a devil of
    a time FINDING  a source for the siding and materials.
    
    CAn anyone point me to WHERE i might find a retailer/wholesaler from
    whom I might buy the stuff?  I'd like several (3 or 4) choices, for
    brands/styles/price comparisons.
    
    thanks,
    
    tony 
    BTW... If you can will you REPLY/AUTHOR or VAXmail to me at
    ESMAIL::BEAN... 
    
    thanks
    t.

>    CAn anyone point me to WHERE i might find a retailer/wholesaler from 
>    whom I might buy the stuff?  I'd like several (3 or 4) choices, for 
    
You apparently haven't looked too hard since both Sommervile Lumber
and HQ have the materials and the tools in stock and have even had 
sales and run advertisements in the local sunday papers recently.

For a "contractor's" type of place that doesn't seem to have a problem 
with homeowners and has better than average qualtity materials, try...

Exclusive Building Products Inc.
60 New York Av (Off of Rt.9 behind the Sheraton Hotel)
Framingham, Ma 508-879-8501

AND... a quick check of the Worcester area yellow pages lists several 
suppliers in the central Mass area. 

"Let your fingers do the walking..."

Charly

    I bought some replacement pieces from Carlton Vinyl in Framingham. 
    They carry several different manufacturers.  Look under siding in the 
    yellow pages, there should be several listings.
    
    Susan
    

    Lumbertown on E. Hollis St. (rt 111) in Nashua has a sign out front,
    something about a sale, I noticed it this AM on the way to work...
    

    Just *how* easy is it to do vinyl siding???
    
    ...and where do I get rid of a house worth of shakes??? :^)
    
    Edd

     If you can identify these items; hammer, level, tin snips, pencil,
  then you can install vinyl siding. It's *very* easy.  I finished
  siding my house and garage in about a week. I cut all the siding and
  mouldings with tin snips. Start with a level line and check it every
  few pieces and you'll have no troubles.  Each box of siding had an
  instruction sheet in it which showed how to cut overlaps, angles
  and also how to get started. I bought the siding from Grossmans, they
  gave me two booklets, one with helpfull hints, and one to help figure
  out how much material I needed. It also showed the different types of
  moulding and where to use them.
  
    As for getting rid of the shakes, try Valium :^)
  I've been putting out four trashcans full of old siding every trash
  day. I called about renting a dumpster, $25 a day which isn't too bad
  until they told me it cost $350 to empty it.

         Dan Sears

My brother and I did his garage in a weekend, it helps to have two people since
the pieces are 10-12 feet long.

I would put up foil sided foam board insulation right over the shakes
and put the vinyl on top of that. The foam evens out the surface and
adds insulation.

CdH

    > right over the shakes...
    
    I was checking out some of my neighbor's installations yesterday, and
    that's just what the contractor did.
    
    Even though it looks pretty easy there's probably a few "tricks of
    the trade" that I wouldn't learn till it was too late, so I'm having
    a few contractors up to give estimates....
    
    Edd

    I am getting ready to put vinyl on my house... about 18 squares in
    total.  I've done this once before...in Texas, with my son helping me. 
    His comment to me was "Dad, we're in the wrong business" after I'd told
    him how expensive it was to HAVE it done by a contractor.  The only
    thing I'd hesitate to do is cover existing wood trim in vinyl or
    aluminum... I don't have the equipment to make nice bends...
    
    At any rate, I've a question about BRANDS of vinyl.  I've found a few I
    've never heard of and wonder about your experiences with any of these:
    
    Georgia Pacifie (I've heard of this brand, but never used it)
    
    Mitten brand.
    
    Vipco brand.
    
    Esclad brand.
    
    Any suggestions?  They all have lifetime or limited lifetime
    warrantees, some prorated and all are transferrable (necessary in my
    thinking, for we will someday sell the house).  By the way, the cost of
    these brands range from 51 to 65 dollars per square (in grey).  I
    haven't checked yet, but I assume the costs of the in/out corners,
    j-channels, etc. are comparable, too.
    
    I am also in a quandry over what to do with the existing siding.  The
    original structure already has two layers on it... the first is cedar
    shingle, covered by asbestos shingles (I have NO IDEA why!)  I'd like
    to hang some insulation on the outside because the original exterior
    walls are un-insulated... and this will cover broken asbestos, and
    lumps to a degree.  I'd RATHER take all that stuff off, because
    something tells me that's the RIGHT thing to do.  But, what do I do
    with it?  I can burn the cedar.  And I have a VERY LARGE unused crawl
    space under the new construction where I've been thinking of burying
    the asbestos shingles.  
    
    suggestions are welcome.
    
    tony

    I got the first bid on the house last night. ~20 square, aluminum
    frames around the windows, insulation/leveling board, soffits, trim,
    etc. T-lok Mastic....
    
                  $5200..
                         .
                          . 
                           $4800...
                                   .
                                    .
                                     .$4500 ("Call me if anyone beats it")
    
    I also asked if there could be any consideration for payment in nice
    crisp $100 bills instead of those nasty checks. Yep....
    
    While this may be high in relation to the actual effort involved, I'm
    not comfortable taking this on myself, even tho I'll probably eat those
    words after it's done....
    
    Second bidder coming tonight...
    
    Edd

    On my previous home, the contractors nailed aluminum-faced (3/4"?)
    styrofoam sheets directly over the existing clapboards, then fastened
    (nailed or screwed, I forget which) the vinyl strips.
    
    Having already restained my 4 year old cedar clapboard sided home once,
    I'm very tempted to undertake the vinyl siding of it myself, before the
    next restaining, which may be as soon as next year...
    
    Just thought of a good question, something I've been pondering a while
    now...  The wood trim on my home desparately needs repainting (not
    restaining) this year.  I've thought of having someone come in and cap
    all the trim in vinyl and/or aluminum.  Would capping now make a
    vinyl siding job more difficult later?
    
    Thanks,
    John  

    Sorry, I meant to be more specific in my previous reply about capping
    the trim now and siding later.  I want to include the window trim as
    part of the capping now part, not just the house trim...
    
    Thanks,
    John

    
    Most of my house is covered with aluminum siding (new addition has been
    added. The siding is in terrible shape. Should that be removed before
    residing or could I cover that and reside over it?
    
    tom
    

re .42:

Why would you want to cover perfectly good 4-year-old stained clapboards
with plastic?  Why do they need staining so frequently?  I thought stain
is supposed to last 4-5 years.

    > Why would you want to cover perfectly good 4-year-old clapboards with
    > plastic?
    
    In a word- maintenance.  Actually, I really don't want to cover siding
    this young, but restaining is very expensive done by a contractor and
    time consuming, pain-staking, and at times dangerous done by myself. 
    Vinyl's a one-shot deal.  Do it once, it's done.
    
    > Why do they need restaining so frequently?  I thought stain is
    > supposed to last 4-5 years.
    
    When new, cedar clapboards new frequent restaining.  It's a fact of
    life.  I suppose it's a combination of things like when it's fresh, the
    stain gets soaked in.  Cedar also "bleeds" which discolors the stain. 
    Weathering is a factor.  In my case, I needed to restain after 2 years
    (yeah, I could've waited a year but it would've needed it badly by
    then).  It's now 2 years later, and it still looks good.  I suspect
    it'll start showing next year (3 years) and will probably need
    restaining the year after (4 years).  Then, I'll probably switch to a
    latex (solid) stain, which should extend the life of that application
    to more like 5-6 years, according to the experts.  Of course, I may not
    have to restain in 2 years if I cover with "plastic" in the meantime. 
    Without restarting the "beauty of wood vs. the look vinyl" rathole,
    let's just say that I'd rather spend my summer vacation and weekends
    with my kids or drinking beers while watching my neighbors' knees shake
    at 40' while they're restaining their beautiful wood homes...  :-)
    
    John 

     My house was estimated at 20 square. I got quotes from three
   siding experts. Their prices were in the same range as what you
   received. Then I priced the materials alone! Having never done
   siding before I was somewhat afraid to take this on. Now that it's
   done, I'd suggest DIY for any siding job.

     The cost of material was around $1500, that's $3000 in their
   pockets for a week of work. I replaced all of the wood trim, all
   of the windows and doors, and all of the soffit for less than the
   siding contractor quoted for just the siding. With the old siding
   off, replacing the windows and doors was easy. I took off the old
   siding to keep the windows from becoming more "recessed." I did use
   the 1/2 inch insulation board, this gives you a nice even surface
   and it helps to keep you from pounding nails in too tight. It's
   also much quieter in the house now, the insulation board cut out
   a lot of the "street" noise. It probably helped with the heating
   cost also.

      I used Georgia Pacific siding, Anderson Windows, and Stanley
   doors. All of which were purchased from Grossmans on sale.

      I have no connection to any of the above mentioned companies,
      your prices may vary.

          Dan Sears


      P.S. Don't bother buying the "dimple" tool, I found that you
           can make dimples just as easily with a 3/8 nail punch
           and a soft blow from the hammer. Saved another $10.

    Good day,
    i am the owner of a house AND a garage.  the house was built in 1968
    and has shingles which are stained "navaho red".  It has been several
    years now, so I know it is time to stain the house again. Maybe this is 
    the last time I would stain the house.  Why?  Well, my garage is
    finished in white vinyl siding.  That was my spouse's idea not mine. 
    Now, after having the vinyl siding for 12 years on the garage I have
    done the first maintenance on the siding.  I washed the siding with
    FANTASTIC and removed  12 years buildup of mildew and bug droppings.
    i am very pleased with the results and am thinking of using turtle wax
    "Clear Guard" on the vinyl.  By the way since the vinyl is white, I can
    not detect any color change or fading on the vinyl. Has any  one else
    experienced this result with vinyl?  Has any one else used "Clear
    guard" on their vinyl siding?
    
    respectfully,
    	Frank Pennington

Later this year, I plan to vinyl side a duplex rental. Any recommendations
on how to handle window trim? I'd like to put the siding right on the
shingles. There is enough insulation, as I blew cellulose into the walls
many years ago. There are aluminum triple track storm windows, and wood
trim. When the shingles come to abut the window on the side, a sawtooth
pattern is formed where the exposed side of the wood trim to the shingle
varies from 1/4" to 1/2".

This seems to pose a problem... do I use a J channel? if I do, will
that leave the J channel furthur from the house compared to the
wood trim, thus making the wood trim recessed?

How can the wood trim be covered too? Vinyl? Aluminum?

    The company I've contracted to side my house builds aluminum "frames"
    that cover all the window trim. While the glass itself is obviously
    recessed further than it was before the siding, the aluminum frames
    let the window appear to protrude normally. I checked out my neighbor's
    house (done by the same company I'm using) and the job looked real
    nice. No J channels invloved, and i think this looks much nicer than
    butting the siding up against the existing frame.
    
    FWIW - I have shingles and triple track storms also...
    
    Edd

    
    re .44  (better late than never)
    
    In a previous life I had the opportunity to remove old aluminum siding
    from a house before residing with vinyl. It took half a day by myself
    to tear it out and the scrap aluminum brought $177 at the scrap yard
    (in 1978)! By all means, tear it off.
    
    
    The easyist way to remove old aluminum siding is to remove the bottom
    panel from the starter strip and then pull out from the wall with a
    flip of the wrist; sort of like spreading a blanket. With a little
    practice, the siding should pop off the nails all the way up the wall.
    Naturally, a few stray pieces above windows and such may be left. They
    can be easily removed as you sink the nails or as you're installing the
    new vinyl.
    
    Bob

    
    re .49
    
    The window trim can be covered with either vinyl or aluminum. The 
    vinyl systems I used (12 years ago) left a lot to be desired. They were
    multi-component systems and difficult to get to match the original 
    molding style. Aluminum can be custom bent using a 'break' to match the
    wood trim style. I would regularly use up to 10 or 12 bends and
    non-square angles in a single piece of aluminum flat stock to match the
    original trim style. I even made round coverings for some old Georgian
    houses in Atlanta. This level of custom coverings can't be done with 
    vinyl. A good aluminum person can even bend the J-channel into the
    window stiles. This sounds like what the pros referenced in .50 did.
    
    If you want to do most of the work, I would recommend that you have 
    the windows done professionally and then hang the siding yourself.
    While bending up the metal, I would hold the dimensions to within
    1/32". If this level of tolerance is not kept, the pieces will not fit
    together tightly. Loose window trim coverings will not only look bad,
    but will allow water to leak in with the usual results :-(.
    
    Bob 
                                                        
    P.S.  re .51 'easyist'! who taught that engineer how to type/spell!

  Hi All,

    I am in urgent need of assistance regarding what to do.

    A Sears salesman was over yesterday to sell vinyl siding
    and his pitch was pretty high-pressured.  (The guy was at
    our house from 1:30 to 9:30 PM!!!)

    Anyway, we signed to have our entire house vinyl sided
    only because we have three days to pull out and the first
    day price was attractive (relatively speaking - relative 
    to *their* 'nonfirst' price).

    So, I really need to get a feel for what other vinyl siders
    can do for me and for how much.  We have approximately 2000
    sq ft in our house.  

    The original estimate for the house was 13,000 which I thought
    was astronomical.  But, we were on a preferred customer sales list
    and this dropped it 1,000.  Then there was a 10% discount if we
    agreed to buy then and there (sounds fishy to me), and finally
    there was a "Standby" agreement that dropped it some more.  (This
    was some kind of thing that allows Sears to do the labor anytime
    within four months - a kind of thing where they can by not wasting
    labor cost.)  When work is slow, the labor (instead of doing nothing)
    would do the "standby" homes.

    Anyway, all this brought the estimate down to $8977.00 for the
    entire house.

    My basic thought is that this is REAL steep but the quality of
    materials and of labor is probably excellent.

    For example, they use pure virgin vinyl that is pretty thick
    (43 ml) with Titanium dioxide in it.  He had other pieces that 
    (for example) cracked or after bending did not resume back to
    their original form.  He showed how some were really made of two
    materials.  

    They use a 3/4" insulator which allows vapor through it and is
    really rigid and thus helps prevent the vinyl from shifting.  
    (Made from compressed polystyrene - no aluminum foil in it).

    The guy explained like how on the bottom, they go under the wood
    with the vinyl (said noone else does this) and how they do panelling 
    areas using 4" wide vinyl panels.  He showed how for around windows, 
    they had this aluminum clip that allowed one to cut the vinyl, but 
    still hang the other pieces appropriately.  One other thing was 
    like how the vinyl needs to be hung and that 1/16 to 1/8" play is
    given by the nail for the vinyl to have room to move.

    In other words, it seemed like materials and labor would be about
    as good as you can get.  Also, of course, they have their 100%
    lifetime guarantee.

    I always have some anxiety whenever I make a huge purchase.  This
    is one we pretty much need as our house has masonite.  The paint 
    is cracking and in spots the masonite is wearing.

    Can anyone out there help me out with what other options are available.
    Especially in terms of

             1) Quality of Parts.

             2) Quality of Labor.

             3) Total Price.

    And do so asap as right now the decision that needs to be made is
    whether or not to pull out of this thing!

    Any coarse estimates (even based on figuring from a % less than
    a Sears estimate) would be great.

    (Although right now I feel like we ought to pull out - too much
    pressure to by on the spot.  That smells bad to me.)

    Any inputs will be really appreciated.

                                             Tony

    I had the same exact sales pitch recently.  Even though I made it quite
    clear to the guy that the ONLY thing I was interested in was vinyl
    trim, and that I probably wasn't going to buy now, just wanted an
    estimate, he still laid all of the discount high pressure stuff on us. 
    After an hour of trying to get the final price from the guy, I politely
    warned him that his welcome was pretty much worn out.  And yes, his 1st
    price was outrageous, and so was his final discounted-several-times
    price.  True, the quality of the materials is probably very good, but
    you can get comparable materials through other reputable contractors
    also.  I strongly suggest calling around right now, right this minute,
    for someone to come over tonight for an estimate.  Chances are, they'll
    beat Sears' best price by a surprising amount...  JMHO.
    
    John

My personal rule is to never, ever buy anything on the hard-sell "today only"
spiel.  If you haven't researched vinyl siding - or whether you need it in the
first place, cancel immediately.

You didn't have time in the 8 hours (!!!) that the guy was at your house to
make an informed decision, and you won't have time in the next 24 hours to make
an informed decision.

There are two major questions to be answered:

1)  Do you want your house vinyl sided in the first place?

2)  Is this a good deal.

DO NOT put yourself in a position of having to try to answer these questions
fully in a day or so and then make a $9000 decision based on them.  Cancel now,
ask questions later.

Also, the "Today only" stuff is pure BS.  If you cancel now, do all the 
investigation and then find that it WAS a good deal and you DO want it, there's 
probably a 98% chance that if you call them back and say "OK, I'll take your 
siding at the price you quoted me," they'll take it.  They may try to push for 
more, but if you just say "You offered me that price before, and I won't pay a 
penny more," eventually they'll call YOU.  If it's a good deal for them today,
it's a good deal for them next week too.

On the question of whether you want it sided in the first place, how much would
it cost to have your house painted?  Perhaps $2000?  And a paint job lasts maybe
seven years?  $7000 (The $9000 for siding minus the $2000 for paint) invested at
8% will give you $5000 above the original $7000 after seven years.  You can 
paint the house again and still have money left over.

Paul

    re: .0
    1:30 to 9:30 PM. Did he take off anything for feeding him supper? :-)
    No way would I let anyone talk for 8 hours. Get out of the deal and
    call other siding Co. They are all starving and will come down on
    a price with a drop of a hat. I just has a new fence put up and am
    having replacement windows installed and a new roof added to my house.
    They all came down over $300 from the original price and for cash they
    will take off more.

	Well, my experience was that when you deal with Sears, you can be
assured you're getting what you're paying for.  Trouble for me was, I was
paying for peace of mind, quality guarantee and some other things that I
thought they placed too high a price on.  They quoted me over $5k for a roof
which I had put on for $3.  I made sure my roofer was insured.  I checked the
references, I watched how they worked and let them know I was watching for
quality work. I now have a roof as good as the one Sears was going to install.
Maybe if I was too old to climb a ladder check up on them, and knew absolutely
nothing about roofs and wasn't likely to learn, $2k would have bought enough
peace of mind, but it came at too high a price for this homer owner. 

-Bob

    Give me a break!  Better yet GIVE YOURSELF A BREAK!
    
    	It sounds like this guy has you wrapped aroung his finger! What
    kind of WIMP are you! :-} (Sorry, I just felt the need to slap you
    around a bit.) Rest assured that *any* time someone offers you a deal
    that is so good that you have to sign for it today *only* - that the
    person the deal is too good for, is the *salesperson*!
    
    	First of all there are laws that allow you to back out of a deal if
    you do so within 10 days. (Someone help me out here please. I can't
    remember the name of this law or wether or not it is a state law.) This
    is a consumer protectin law that is designed specifically to protect
    people like you from salespersons like him.
    
    	Back out now! Make sure you give whatever notice is required
    according to whatever you signed. Then take some time to do the
    research. Check out oter contractors, get references, and check them.
    Consider that a few hours or this type of activity may well save you a
    few thousand. (And that is for just a few hours work)
    
    	Rest assured that if you want to go back to Mr Pressure he will
    still be there, and will still offer you the same price if you push
    back. Show him a written estimate from your lowest contractor and
    mumble about how the difference between this bid and Sears is sooooo
    high - and Mr Pressure will come down, believe me.
    
    	It is good to see that you had the smarts to check in here, however
    please let me know if you decide to ignore the advice in these
    topics. If so I have this great bridge you may be interrested in... ;-)
    
    
    						Mark

    I just had my house done. T-Lok Mastic, 3/4" leveling board, soffits
    aluminum window trim. No exposed wood on the house...
    
           <----------60'---------------->          One story ranch.
           |                             |          Walk out basement
           |      ___                    |18        
        38 |     |   |___________________|
           |     |
           |_____|
             18
    
           ...cost me just under $5K. Good work. Some contractors came in
    lower at about $4500, but I wasn't comfortable with them.
    
    Edd
    

    When you call to cancel, expect even more high pressure and "$'s off".
    Don't buckle under.
    
    Chris D.

    Many of us have been in your situation. Many of us have been swayed by
    high pressure sales tactics. Many of us have made the mistake you made
    yesterday (I am 100% sure it was a mistake). Don't feel bad. Don't be
    embarrassed or intimidated, either by the sales person's success or by
    some of these replies. If thousands of people just like you hadn't made
    the same mistake, there wouldn't be a law in MA allowing you to walk
    away from it. If thousands of people didn't succumb to high pressure
    sales tactics, sales slugs wouldn't use them. Welcome to the club!

    Now, put it behind you, chalk it up to experience, learn from it,
    empower yourself, and DITCH THIS DEAL IMMEDIATELY. (And do it by the
    books. You may have to provide something in writing, not just rely on
    a phone call. A consumer advocacy group of the Attorney General's
    office should know exactly what to do.)

    Then, if you really want vinyl siding, get an estimate from at least
    three reputable contractors. Make sure they're all bidding on the same
    thing; make a list of requirements (eg, soffits will/not be covered,
    type/quality of under-insulation, debris will/not be removed...) --
    in other words, remove as many variables as possible from the equation.
    Thinks about all the bids; refuse to sign anything on the spot. Read a
    book on assertiveness training, and whatever you can find on residing.
    Then, make an informed, unpressured decision. It will be the best
    feeling you've had in a long time.

    [These tactics are applicable to home improvement projects of any type
    and size, and also (perhaps especially) to automobile purchases.]

For a similar experience from a couple of years ago, read note 818.

Paul

	As a rule, I  *NEVER EVER* commit to spend alot of money without
	a least giving myself a day or two to think about.  Sometimes you
	can miss oportunities,  but you rarely get burned.  As someone
	mentioned earlier,  SEARS will most likely give you that same 
	price whenever you ask for it.  I try also to make it a rule that
	if someone is offering me a special deal to "buy right this moment",
	then I won't even continue talking with them.
	
	Cancel deal and reconsider.
	
	Garry

After you have cancelled the deal go to your favorite video store and rent
"Tin Men".  Sit back and enjoy the show.


Stan

    I think Mass. allows just 3 days for you to reconsider a deal. ( I got
    suckered into a time-share deal up in Vermont. I've been through this
    before). 
    Don't just call to cancel the deal. You need to send a registered
    letter with all the specifics. This way there is proof (no just a phone
    call) that you cancelled the deal. Make sure you keep a copy of the 
    cancellation letter.
    		Cindy
    P.S. I'm a much stronger person now a days! 

I once ordered encyclopedias for $2-3K when I was making $11K/year
(when I was younger).

I backed out that evening.  I got the pressure to keep with the contract.
"I've already submitted it!"  "I don't care.  I know that I have three
days to cancel it and I want to cancel my order."

What a relief once I had done that.  I must have been crazy!  But it
taught me a lesson about high pitch - walk away and make up your mind.
Never sign for something for that much in one sitting.

Mark

I'm interested in the comments on the 3/4" insulation that the salesman
said would be put up underneath the vinyl siding.  Did the salesman say
what the R value of that stuff is?  Was he claiming that the lack of
aluminum foil is a good thing?  Is the stuff more expensive than the
insulation boards made of extruded polystyrene or polycyanurate (which has
a higher R value than polystyrene)?

It is in general a very good thing to add insulation when one adds
vinyl siding, even if you have good insulation in your walls.  The problem
is that even relatively small areas with no insulation (such as at the
band joists) have a big impact on the effective insulation value of a
house.  Foam insulation placed on the outside covers nearly 100% of the
walls, and greatly reduces the impact of voids in the in-wall insulation.
It also reduces the air infiltration.  So vinyl siding with added
insulation adds a lot more value than just the freedom from painting.

The plus of aluminum foil faced insulation is that you get a higher
R value because of the foil face.  The down side is that it acts as
a really good vapor barrier.  This can be mitigated by putting small
holes in it and/or by making sure that you have a very good vapor barrier
on the inside (e.g. foam sealed outlets, etc.).  However, an article
in the Journal of Light Construction claimed that foam insulation on
the outside of a wall need not lead to condensation problems -- it's
true that there's an outside vapor barrier, but it's also true that 
the wall cavity is warmer due to the foam insulation, thus raising the
dew point and resulting in less condensation.

Just some things to think about.  From the original message, it sounds
like the Sears salesman was selling technology as well as siding.  New
technology may or may not be better than the old, it isn't easy to tell
when a salesman provides your only information.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

      Hi All,
    
        Thanks a million for your inputs.  They were well taken,
        informative, and often funny!
    
        Yes, I must face reality and confront the fact that I am
        a WIMP!  Actually, I was pretty candid with the guy.  I did
        tell him that there had to be some extremely significant 
        reason why he had to strike a deal NOW.  There were times
        I was actually laughing - it got to where it seemed just
        plain surreal.  (I thought I was in the Twilight Zone.)
    
        I really was candid with the guy.  I told him there was 
        absolutely no way I would ever agree to anything from potential
        seller A without seeing potential sellers B through E for anything
        even remotely approaching that kind of money.  But, at some point
        I should have said "Get out of my house."   The wimp comment
        was well taken and provided the most laughs from coworkers.
    
        I basically knew there was no way I wanted to do this.  But, my
        wife said IN FRONT OF THE SALESMAN that she did!  (Reminds me of
        Sonny Corleone letting on that he liked Sollozzo's offer even 
        though Vito his father did not!)  I.e. NEVER display a posture
        of disharmony within 'the family'to an *outsider*!
    
        So, what I wanted was the ammo to show my wife so that instead
        of a big disagreement between us, there would be complete agree-
        ment with no friction.  Hard copies of your replies provided
        that ammo.  And it worked beautifully.
    
        About the insulation...
    
        The guy liked 3/4 for its R-value (5), its rigidness, and the
        absence of foil for the reason you gave.
    
        Again, thanks, I really appreciate the inputs.
                                              
                                                 Tony
         

    I am in the middle of a DIY Vinyl siding job. I am doing a new 32 X 32
    garage and going over clapboard on an existing 32 X 32 Cape. I have 15
    square of siding and associated J trim and starter strip. I chose
    Mastic with the brushed finished and the small (2.5 inch) exposure.
    
    I had the facia, windows and doors wrapped in metal to start.
    So far 2 of the 3 sides of the garage are done and I've started the
    gables on the cape. I have not had any major problems.
    
    I am not sure what to do in 4 areas:
    
    	Where the electrical wires attach to the house. Do I take down the
    	wires (have them taken down by an electrician), put up the vinyl
    	and then reattach the wires? If so can you just nail/staple through
    	vinyl?
    
    	Sort of the same question with the hose water facet and the
    	electrical boxes that protrude. Do you just cut holes in the vinyl?
    	Any advise on how to trim it so that it looks nice?
    
    	On the back of the house I plan to put in the deck. I suppose to
    	keep from having to rip off the siding next year, it would be best
    	to put in at least the ledger board now and side around it. I am also 
    	planning a slider on to this planned deck. Any creative ideas on how 
        to trim forit now, even though I won't be installing it until next 
    	summer. Again, I'd hate to have to unbutton this stuff.
     
    	Finally where the garage meets the existing house, the cape sticks
    	out from the garage approx 3/4 inch (due to the clapboards installed 
    	on the house. I plan to put up those rigid half inch foam boards to
    	the two surfaces close to the same. IS this the best way to go at
    	that type of problem. DO you nail or staple the rigid foam up?
    
    What I've done so far looks great. I had a half day of On the Job
    training and it goes pretty quickly.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Guy

    
    I just moved from a rented house which was re-sided this summer - vinyl
    over t&g wood siding.  They seemed to have prefabricated clamps and
    finish plates for all this stuff - maybe you should check with the
    supplier?
    
    	> Where the electrical wires attach to the house.

          They used a purpose-made cable clamp. cut a small hole in the
          siding and screwed the clamp to the old wood siding.  Fill the
          hole with color-matched mastic and a grommet.  Light cables
          were fixed with a cable holder that glued direct to the siding.
          (they did not use enough, and the cables slap the siding in
          the wind).
    
          Oversize holes or half-moons (where strips join) were cut
          for the faucets/gas entry which were finished with prefabricated
          vinyl face plates.  It looked neat and was weatherproof.   It;s
          important to allow some movement in the siding strips to take care
          of expansion & contraction, so don't screw/nail a cable down
          through the vinyl.
    
    	  The poorest finish was the exterior lights, because they did not
          bother to move out the boxes.
    
    > DO you nail or staple the rigid foam up?
    
    	  I'd use an appropriate construction adhesive ;)
    
    As for the future deck, It should be possible to install the ledger
    board now, and use a wide aluminum flashing under the last course of
    siding to cover the ledger until you are ready to build the deck.
    As long as any water runs down and away from the plate.  Make the
    flashing wide enough to flare the edge out as a dripper and seal under
    it with mastic.  You can cut this flashing to size when the deck is
    unstalled.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin.

    Thanks for the help.
    
    RE: the construction adhesive. There is already tyvek over the
    chipboard, so I can't use the adhesive.
    
    RE: special fixtures, thanks for the hint. I'll check into it. I
    already have the ones for the lights. I had considered hacking these
    into smaller sizes for the faucet and outlets. I'll check and see if
    there are factory available things.
    
    While I'm at it I'll check into clips you mentioned for the wires.
    
    Thanks again for the tips.
    
    Now if this snow would just hold off for a couple more weeks...
    
    8^)
    
    Guy

    REP. -2
    
     Nail the styrofoam up with long roofing nails. You might want to 
    remove it someday and reuse it. E.G.  if you do an addition.
     The roofing nails have large heads and can be removed. It might
    take a little practice to keep from overdriving the nail at first, but
    you'll get used to it fast. OR have the wife do it.:>) 
    
     Arround pipes you use a hole cutter, cut a hole and cut a slot vertically
    to the edge. Do not cut horizontally as this will allow water to seep
    behind the vinyl.
    nearest edge

    Thanks for the suggestion on the styrofoam, the long roofing nails work
    fine.
    
    I have a while before I get to the side with the faucet. I think I'll
    give it a shot on some scrap.
    
    RE: how to siding book. No I don't have one. I have had a day worth of
    On-the job training, and I also saw the Georgia Pacific how to video.
    unfortunately the video focused on only the major points, and skipped
    subtlties like lights, outlets, and faucets. 
    
    Can you recommend a good How-to book?
    
    Guy

    
     I wasn't sure if one existed. (how to book that is). I just figured
    that they had one on everything else, why not one on siding? Next time
    I go to my local building supply place I'll check. In the meantime keep
    on writing here. There's a lot of experience here at Dec. and most
    times somebody will have had the same good time you are having now.
     Besides with the way things are going today, think of it as learning
    a second trade.  MANY MANY 8>)'s.
    
    pee ess-- Another way to find out how to cut the hole for the sillcocks
     is to see how floor tiles go arround pipes. Its done pretty much te
    same.

    RE: sillcocks, etc.
    
    My concern is with the vertical split. If your sillcock is located low
    on the piece of vinyl and you split it all the way up, it will show. Am
    I completely whacked here?
    
    I just spoke to someone who suggested making the seam right at the
    sillcock, in which case you could get away with the vertical split.
    
    Guy

    
      Time to use some common sense here. Whats wrong with making the slit
    to the bottom or nearest vertical edge? none. The idea is to make the
    least (smallest) visible notch while trying to keep moisture out. The
    important thing is to keep it vertical so that rainwater (etc.) doesn't
    seep behind the vinyl and start woodrot. Hope this helps.

    re: -1
    
    As it turns out, I did put a seam right at the faucet and vertically
    slit the overlapping piece. It looks neat and tidy. The front is now
    done. Now I just have to deal with the electrical service wires and the
    deck around back.
    
    It is turning out very well. Thanks for the tips and suggestions. Your
    patience with a neophyte is greatly appreciated.
    
    Regards,
    
    Guy

    
    Congrats! I'll bet it does look nice. Nothing like the satisfaction
    you get from having done a nice job yourself. Now all you have to do 
    is wash it once in a while. No more painting or scraping.:>)
    
    P.S. Don't let the kids near it in winter. It does get brittle.

What is the right way to handle lights?  I have two lights.  Right now the wire
is only sticking out of the wall and the vinyl is not yet up.  I was thinking that
I should mount a piece of wood, mount the outdoor box on this, then the light.
The vinyl would then have J-molding put all the way around with the vinyl coming
to that.  Is this right?

How do they handle repairs?  What if they have to replace vinyl from the bottom?
Do they simply nail up all the way, but not the last row (which you cannot get
to the nailer for)?

Ed..

    They make a mounting plate the ones I've used are 8 sided, about 6
    inches in diameter, and have a rectangle hole in the middle for an
    electric box. The back of this plate is notched so it fits the angle
    of the siding and sits flat right on top of the siding in the middle
    of a seam. Hard to explain... 
    
         ________		__
    	/  	 \	        | /
       /          \		|/
       |	  |		|_
       |          |		| /
       \ 	  /		|/
    	\________/		|_
    
    Lousy drawing....
    

    RE: Lights
    
    I also went right over existing clapboards. I did not use the one that
    follows the contour of the old clapboards. I used the flush mount
    version and it worked fine. Not sure where you live, but Maki
    Homecenter has both types ($4.99 each) in stock. I believe that they
    match the Georgia Pacific siding, although since I used their white, I
    was not concerned about color match.
    
    I used Mastic siding and my Mastic dealer says that he also has light
    blocks to match the color of the siding.
    
    RE: Repairs
    
    They make a J hook sort of tool that will allow you to unbutton siding.
    Also if you are familiar with the nailing strip, if you pull down own a
    piece of siding you can get the piece off of the nail without having to
    pull the nail.
    
    Guy

    RE: "the last row
    
    I assume that you mean the top row? If so, I've seen it handled two
    ways. One way is to put J trim up and trim the top piece to fit and
    simply let it sit there. The more common way (I belive someone covered
    it) is to use undersill trim. After timming the top piece to fit, you
    punch holes with a special tool (or use a nail set), and then snap the
    piece into place.
    
    Guy 

    
    Rep .63 Go to the place you just bought your vinyl from and pick any
    number of light mounting brkts. You will see in a second how to mount
    to the box. (kinda like doing a ceiling fixture) the nice vinyl brkt.
    will fit the contours of the vinyl very nicely. Be sure to pick a brkt.
    large enough for your light fixture. This doesn't require any J channel
    if I am understanding your question correctly.
     I believe .64 answered your question on how to handle repairs. Sorry
    to be late responding. 
    

    
    RE Faucets
    
    This didn't occur to me until "winterizing" my house last weekend! I
    noticed that the faucets were mounted onto the wood siding.
    
    You could have temporarily REMOVED the faucet and simply made a
    neat hole for the pipe, then replaced the faucet over the new siding.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    
    Just about all sillcocks are hard soldered to the water pipe. Just
    after the inside shutoff. No easy task to remove. State code requires
    that they also be anti-siphon fwiw. In the case of mounting to a house
    with clapboards etc. they cut the hole and put the sillcocks in when
    they are doing the finish plumbing.

    Though the answer for the previous was never answered... this looks
    like the correct note.
    
    We have (2) two year young vinyl siding.  In some areas we are
    experiencing a blackish color mold.  Is there anything that I 
    can do to both remove and inhibit its return.  The only thing
    I have tried so far is Joy dishwash and warm water.
    
    That's all I have used in the past for mild stain removal.  I've
    used the "409" cleaners on more stubborn stains.  Considering the
    large areas and some of the high locations of these stain/mold 
    I'm hoping for a more suitable application with brush on pole etc. 
    
    Thanks for you help
    Frank

    Re .2
    
    It sounds like mildew.  If so, the standard concoction of bleach
    and TSP in solution should take care of it.  I've used this mix
    on wood siding with good results.  Elsewhere in this conference
    it's discussed under "mildew" if I rememeber correctly.  The
    correct proportions are usually found on the TSP box, but it
    normally is 1 cup bleach in 2 gallons water + appropriate amount
    of TSP per the directions.
    
    PBM
    

If it's mildew, you don't need TSP, just diluted bleach.  

    
    	Will bleach harm vinyl siding?
    

    When we bought our house 2 years ago it had a bad case of mildew 
    and we removed it with a bucket of warm water, good old spic and span
    and a scrub brush (with sturdy but soft bristles) and we have not
    had a problem since....  We too have vinal siding....
    
    Just a thought....

    I tested some vinyl siding with various dilutions of bleach and
    detergent before I cleaned our gray siding.  Six month later I still
    haven't found any discoloration.  Of course I hosed down the siding
    after.

    As an alternative to using a brush to apply the bleach/water to
    siding, I've found that one of those plastic 3 gallon all-purpose
    sprayers is MUCH better.  Just spray it on and hose it off.  They
    have a pretty good range (10-15 feet or so) if you pump them up
    enough.  They're only about $15-20 at Sears.
    
    Greg B.

Be sure to cover any plants near your house when you use bleach and/or TSP
to wash the siding.  It can harm them.

			Steve

    RE: .-1 & .-2
    
    To fit the J-channel around circular windows - snip the nailing hem
    of the J-channel at regular intervals (not the exposed portion!).
    This will work fine and you will have a circular looking uncut
    J-channel.  Warm weather helps too.
    
    side view                       |
    of J-channel                    | nailing hem or back side
                            |       |     (snip this side)
                      front |       |
                            +-------+
                             bottom
                                       

    
    Old note - new question.
    
    We have a house with a detached garage. The garage is to undergo
    some recontruction this year.  In doing so, the current siding (shakes,
    unknown material, in poor shape) will come down and new siding is
    obviously to go up.   We're see-sawing on the ideas of wood clapboards
    or vinyl siding.  At 4" coverage, wood siding is going to be just
    over $1100 - but it lasts a looong time with the proper maintanence.
    Vinyl on the other hand is about $700 for the same coverage and is
    pretty much mainanence free for about 50 years (the warrenty). The
    down side to vinyl is, it's the same color for those 50 years or so
    ( bar any slight fading). You can't paint it if we get tired of the
    color.
    
    We will do the house, just not this year (and will probably do it in
    wall sections).  Will the vinyl be hard to match (probably won't buy
    all at once) ?  Being the garage is detached, ideas on whether this is
    a real problem ?  if we go with wood, should the clapboards be primed
    on both sides, applied to the walls, then painted the final color ?
    Or will that idea hold in too much mosture from the wood and peel the 
    paint anyways..?   Any other suggestions/ideas will be welcomed.
    

If you go with wood, why not stain?  We had both sides stained with the
final color to keep things simple and avoid any immediate need to apply
more stain after they are up.  I would think that with quality dried
lumber (that has been stored out of the elements) the moisture content is 
already low enough -- can anyone confirm that?

One vinyl siding color you can be sure to match is white.  I owned a house
with vinyl siding and I now own one with wood siding, and my feeling is
that the right choice depends on what's around your house.  In a suburban
setting, I'd pick vinyl.  In a rural setting, I'd pick cedar clapboards or
shakes.  I can't imagine ever choosing hardboard or any pseudo-wood siding.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

With a strong potential of installing vinyl siding on my house myself, 
I have a few questions to ask the more experienced noters:

1.  What's the difference in quality/price between the siding you can
    buy at your local Home Improvement chain store (i.e. Georgia-Pacific,
    Esclad, etc) and that bought or installed typically through a 
    contractor (i.e. Mastic, Wolverine, Certainteed, etc).  I'm guessing
    the store-bought kinds are medium-grade and that the contractor-bought 
    are more premium-grade (thicker siding, higher quality).  Any expert
    opinions?

2.  How about some opinions on which looks better, smooth-faced (I believe
    AKA matte) finish, or wood-grained finish.  I have an older cape and
    am doing it in white.  The Wolverine brochure I have says that the 
    "low-gloss smooth finish resembles freshly-painted wood more, and that
    some glossy woodgrain finishes look cheap"?

3.  Wolverine Technologies also sells lots of vinyl accessories (i.e. window
    and door surrounds to simulate exterior casings versus basic J-channel, 
    and other architectural details to help retain some of the home's 
    original look).  Has anybody worked with this stuff?  Do other manufac-
    turer's sell similar accessories?

Thanks,
Dan

    
    
    I've read through this note and found some useful information from 1987
    on my topic, but wanted to get an update:
    
    I have four quotes now from vinyl-sider contractors for my home.  The
    two who seem most knowledgeable use different backing material; styrofoam 
    vs. Amowrap house wrap.
    
    Both contractors suggested leaving on the existing siding, patching
    the rotted peices (it's that nasty Masonite particle-stuff), then
    placing styrofoam or wrap over the existing siding.
    
    One contractor would put the vinyl over 3/8" styrofoam, and the other 
    would put the vinyl over the Amowrap house wrap.  
    
    The wrap contractor said he would apply thin peices of wood (made for
    the purpose) to space the vinyl even with the outside edge of the
    existing siding, keeping an even surface for the vinyl to be nailed to.
    
    My question is whether I am losing out on the benefits (sound/thermal)
    of the insulation of the styrofoam vs. the wrap?
    
    While I plan to check references for quality, based on price alone
    the contractor using the wrap is about $800 lower, which would help
    pay for my wedding this fall  :^)
    
    Any suggestions for under-the-vinyl?
    
    

    RE:.71

    	Having worked part time doing vinyl siding for three years I found
    that it was pretty much standard procedure to leave the old siding up.
    The only time I saw it taken down was when the old siding was vinyl. 
    As far as the styrofoam wrap or the paper it depends how much insulation 
    you want, The foam wrap being better in my opinion.  Also it's much
    easier to make the walls look straight with the styrofoam wrap.  As to
    the price the contractor with the wrap should be cheaper because the
    rolled wrap is cheaper than the styrofoam backer.  It all boils down to
    what you want and can afford at the time.  Hope this helps.

    Joe

    Of course, the styrofoam serves as a vapor barrier, where you really
    don't want one.  I've read suggestions that it could contribute to
    rotting of the wall beneath.
    
    				Steve

I currently have wood board-and-batten siding and am considering going to
vinyl. Would this necessitate removal of the battens? 

Brian

re .73:  Applying a vapor barrier (such as foam insulation) to the outside
of plywood sheathing can cause moisture to condense inside the wall and
wet the insulation or rot the wood -- although the foam insulation raises
the temperature of the plywood, and so makes it less likely that condensation
will occur.  I've heard a rule of thumb that at least 1/3 of the R value
has to be in the foam for it to be reasonably safe.

However, in this case, the foam insulation is not flat against the side
of the house, but is offset from it because the masonite siding isn't flat
-- right?  So in this case, won't the condensation occur on the outside of
the masonite siding?  Wouldn't that be ok, so long as the moisture has a
way to leak out at the bottom?

	Larry

     On my way to work today I noticed a house with siding DRIPPING down
one corner of the house.  Since I didn't investigate any further, I can
only assume that the house is sided with vinyl and the recent heat wave
(the house is in Marlborough, MA) caused the siding to melt.  I read some
of the other notes on vinyl siding and saw some comments about neighbors'
fires causing vinyl siding to melt but really, is the melting point
of vinyl siding so low that a heat wave can melt the stuff?  I can only
imagine what would happen in the south or if you used a dark color for the
siding.

     Then again, maybe it isn't vinyl siding.  But what other type of siding
would "melt"?

Phil

    There was a car fire in the driveway, and the heat from that caused
    they siding to melt. It was in the Hudson Sun sometimes this week.

    That explains it!  Thanks for setting me straight.  Maybe I should read
    the newspaper more often.

    
    My sister also melted her vinyle siding with a bbq grill to close.
    
    Speaking of which, has any body ever painted their vinyle siding or
    seen it done? If so, how'd it look.

    The melting point of many plastics is around 400 to 500 degrees, but
    can be lower for some types.
    
    Carl
    

    
    
    MY next door neighbor complained to the manufacturer regarding the
    fading of his vinyl siding(powder blue) and wanted new siding since it
    was still under warranty. The company sent out an inspector and the
    inspector confirmed that there was excessive fading. The mfg co. is
    sending out a company that spray paints the entire house(vinyl siding)
    

re .5:

So won't it have to be repainted?  If it does, it defeats the whole purpose
of vinyl siding.

    they robably use a vinyl dye thats sprays on
    
           Dean

I'm planning to install vinyl siding on our house this summer.  I'd
feel more comfortable if I'd seen it done.

If you're installing siding and wouldn't mind having me watch for a
couple hours, and even help if you like, please send me mail.

Thanks!
							Larry

    Just a piece of side information.  I picked up a booklet from Home
    Depot entitled: "Vinyl Siding Planning Guide".  It's put out by
    Georgia-Pacific.  The address on the back of the booklet is:
    
    	Georgia-Pacific
    	133 Peachtree St., N.E. (30303)
    	P.O. Box 105605
    	Atlanta, GA 30348-5605
    
    FYI.
    
    MikeB.

    
    The Nashua HOME DEPOT has a free "Install Vinyl Siding" workshop 
    one night during the week. If you have an HD nearby, give them 
    a call.
    
    								- Mac

I've read through most of the "siding" notes and am still pretty confused
about we should do with our home next summer.  It's about 12 or 13 years
old, and was sided in insulite when we bought it.  The insulite is not in
good condition, and is not worth painting; we're going to have to re-side.

Our contracter, who built our deck on the back and helped us when we re-
modeled the kitchen this year, recommends that we go with ceder siding.
I like the looks of ceder better, but the no?/low maintenance of vinyl
siding appeals to us.  The contractor says that ceder siding would put the
house in a "different class" than vinyl.  Anybody care to comment on this ?

Our home is a two story, hipped roof colonial on 2 acres of land.  It has
wooden shutters, and trim on all the edges that I'll try and diagram
below because I don't know how to describe it - little rectangles of wood
that make like a keystone edge - well like I said, I don't know how to describe
it.

                   ----+--|
                   ----|  |
                  ---+-+--|
            siding---|trim|
                  ---+-+--|
                  -----|  |
                     +-+--|
                     |    |
                     +-+--|  


The house is gray and the trim is white.  We like the grey color, it seems to
fit the woodsy setting and complements our stone wall, steps, walkway very well.
So I don't think changing the color of the house would ever really be an issue
for us.

We also like the trim and are wondering if we would be able to maintain its
appearance if we went with vinyl.  Also, the insulite is in such poor condition
that we'd like to remove it rather than residing over it.  Most of the notes
I've seen talk about putting vinyl siding over the existing siding.  We're
afraid that we'd be sealing in some problems that could cause damage to the
structural features of the house over time.  Any comments on this ?

I would go for the ceder in a moment if it weren't for the fact that it needs
repainting every so often, and getting it done is expensive but my husband
doesn't like ladders or heights, and I'm not so keen on being way up there
myself.  How long before a typical ceder sided home would need repainting ?  
My husband has also talked about pre-painted ceder siding.  Anybody have any 
experience with this ?

Thanks,

Leslie

    The Big Question!!!!!!!
    
    I guess you have to look at what the neighborhood has.  If most
    of the houses around are wood sided.  The vinyl might stick out.
    Ceder looks great and last but it does need attention.  Painting,
    scraping and repair.
    
    With vinyl, its up, its done.  Just needs a washing everynow and then.
    Vinyl does brake when hit with a 60mph wide pitch!  and IMHO shouldnt
    be used to cover up problems.  Its a lot cheeper "$$$" than wood if
    you worried about cost.
    
    Keep in mind....Resale, maintaince, $/$, and what you like...
    
    JD

    The corner treatment might be tricky to work around with vinyl, I'm
    not sure.  If it could be done, you then might have the corner trim
    to paint every X years, but that would be a lot easier than painting
    the whole house.  
    There would be no problem that I know of in putting vinyl siding 
    directly on the sheathing (i.e. taking off the old siding first).  

       IMO, vinyl siding looks cheap.  It is cheap too which is why many
       people choose it.  I would never buy a house with vinyl siding and
       I also would hesitate to buy a painted house.

       My choice for siding is cedar and you can stain cedar in almost 
       any color you want.  With stain, you don't have to scrape so 
       restaining is much easier.  My parents house has grey stained
       cedar.  Looks great.  Sure, paint looks alot "smoother" but
       the house you described sounds like it would look nice stained.

       Karen

    
          You only have the problems with cheap vinyl if thats what you
       buy. It comes in several thicknesses which dictates its look and
       durabilty. Before I did my house 4 years ago I looked into cedar
       and composite siding and decided to go with a high quality vinyl.
       It is warrantied against 60mph pitches (was tested by me with a
       golf ball and a fairway wood) and fading. Most contractors put
       the thin cheap vinyl on houses for profit reasons.
    
                                                 Randy

    
       If you get vinyl make sure it is extruded (color all the way 
     through) and appropriate thickness.  Shouldn't be a problem.
    
                       Mark

    There comes a time for some folks (like me!) where any real or imagined
    "cheap looking" aspects of vinyl are outweighed by the aggravation of
    maintaining something else.
    
    I washed my house last weekend. Took about 90 minutes. It used to take
    me longer than that to just purchase the paint.
    
    ;^)
    
    Edd

    
    Just to add to Karens note about the stain....There is a house
    in Barre Ma. near the High School that is stained a golden brown
    color.  The trim is bluish gray.  It looks sharp....
    
    JD

Any suggestions for how to clean tar off white vinyl siding.  A roofer
stripped old shingles and they made scuff marks on the way down.

Thanx in advance,

Brian

If it's just scuff marks, you can rub them off with your finger, or water and a
sponge, if there are a lot.  If it's tar, there are any number of ways:
automotive bug and tar remover, WD-40, baby oil...

    RE: .11
    
         Whatever you decide to "try" for a tar cleaner, I suggest doing
    a test area in an inconspicuous spot or on a scrap of siding. (if
    available). Personally, I'd probably try a dry rag and some elbow
    grease (friction should soften, smear and pickup tar) first, then possibly
    some isopropyl alcohol. The size of the area could make this a time
    consuming task!!! 
    
    Good Luck,
    Charlie
    

    I doubt that alcohol will touch tar.   I think you'd do better
    with mineral spirits (paint thinner).  But yes, indeed, try it
    in an inconspicuous spot first.  

    Has anyone heard of or dealt with Hallmark Exteriors based in 
    Methuen Mass. I thinking about having my house sided and I'm getting
    quotes from diffrent people and this company wants me to go to the
    office with my wife to give me a presentation thats lasts a 1 1/2.
    The other two gave me a quote at my house, which makes me wonder about
    these guys.
    
    thanks
    Tony
    

    Does anyone have any opions on Hallmark Exteriors based in Methuen,
    Mass..
    
    thanks
    Tony
    

    Do you have 3 days to back out of a contract signed in an office?
    
    Edd

I got in an argument on the phone with the president of the Hallmark over
giving me an estimate before wasting an hour and half of my time in his
office. If I ahve to argue with the guy to get an estimate I can imagine
the trouble I'll have getting him to finish off the job, he is definitly
crossed off my list...

    re .80:  No, I don't think you have 3 days to reject an offer signed
    in the business office of the people with whom you are contracting.
    
    The point of the law, as I understand it, is to protect people from
    high pressure sales tactics in which the sales people come to your
    home and insist on a decision right away.  There were a lot of abuses
    involving sales calls on people at their homes.  I guess the assumption 
    is that if you go to *them*, then you should be assumed to know what
    you are doing if you sign a contract.  And that seems fair to me.
    All laws have to balance competing interests.
    
    Anyway, this may explain why Hallmark wants to do the 1 1/2 hour
    presentation in their office.  
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

    I am having a new roof put on this summer and feel that the
    white aluminum siding will need to be cleaned and the shutters
    painted to complete the exterior.
    
    My questions are...
    
    1. What size (PSI) pressure washer will be needed? House is a
       VERY tall two story.
    
    2. What chemical should I use to clean the dirt. I want to do 
       it once and only once. I'm also concerned about damage to
       hedges and the lawn.
    
    If any has done this this before, I'd like to hear of the 
    problems you've encountered.
    
    Paul

See 2525.

    
    
    	What are the best type of nails to hang siding with?  The clerk
    	at HD said 'Oh, just about any type will do'.
     	
    

Hmm - the clerks at HD are usually brighter than that.

Hot-dipped galvanized are the most popular choice.

				Steve

    
    Aluminum nails are good for vinyl as it's all blindwork and the nails
    won't get painted.  The do tend to bend easily 'though.
    
    Colin
    

    
    	Someone suggested 'roofing' nails.
    
    	Comments?
    
    	/ab

Never use roofing nails.

I just resided with cedar and paid the extra for stainless steel.  THey are 
well worth it...they hold better, never rust, look better (or patch 
better), etc.  I used HDG box nails for a short section when I ran out of 
stainless and was not as happy.  For the extra few dollars over the entire 
project it is worth it.

-Greg

    re: .87
    
    I think the question was about nails for vinyl siding, in which
    case the nails won't show at all.
    
    I think roofing nails are typically used for vinyl siding; I think
    that would be my choice.

    I've ripped small sections of Vinyl Siding off houses to put up decks;
    invariably the nails were roofing nails.
    
    Of course, judging by the quality of the decks that *used* to be on the
    houses, I don't know that I'd trust these builders farther than I could
    punt them..
    
    ...tom

    
    
    I  have pulled a few sections of vinyl off my house. The nails are 
    solid aluminum and bend pretty easy (as mentioned earlier). I don't 
    know what the price is compared to roofing nails but the size is
    almost (if not exactly) the same.
    
    /Charlie
    
                   

    	Back in the late 70's early 80's I used to install vinyl siding
    part time and all we ever used was aluminum nails.

    Joe

    
    If the siding that you use requires aluminum trim, you'll also
    hve to use coloured aluminum nails for that.  I don't think you
    can mix the metals without risking corrosion.
    
    .91  Any technique tips on how not to bend the bu**ers?
    
    C

Hit 'em straight and hope you don't hit another nail.  The aluminum fencing
nails I used (on a fence) were quite sharp and went in fine as long as I didn't 
hit something else.

					Steve

I though you were talking about wood siding...yes roofing should be fine 
for vinyl but most books recommend aluminum.  As -.1 said, they are a pain 
to hit straight (I did lots of gutters this weekend), are much more 
expensive.  But since vinyl siding nailing requires a light touch so not to 
pinch the vinyl, it may be a blessing.

    
    Anyone had their place resided recently?  I'm wondering what it
    costs per square nowadays.
    
    Colin

    	Are you talking about installed cost or a DIY ? FWIW - I did a
    small siding project (small shed) and was amazed at how simple it
    really was. Course I'm not a big fan of heights, so that could be a
    limiting factor for others as well.
    
    	Home Depot has a free "How-to" pamphlet on vinyl siding. Well worth
    grabbing next time you're there. It really is amazingly simple to
    do once you see the pictures. Definitely a must-try project if
    you have a wooden shed to try it out on.
    
    BTW - DIY / sq. costs are ~$38 for white and ~$44 for colors, not
    including J/F strips, in or outside corner strips, facia, and overhang
    panels.
    
    	Ray

    
    Both data would be intersting, although I can't see myself doing it.
    Thanks for the tip on the pamphlet.  I'll pick one up tomorrow.
    
    Colin
    

    We're having a contractor redo our house know (2 jobs, 2 young kids,
    and very high peaks eliminated the DIY plan).   Certainteed siding
    from Harvey Industries (contractor only supplier) was $47 standard
    grade to $92 for premium grade per square.   
    
    If you want to see an example of a really well done job with lots
    of extra trim work let me know and I'll send you directions.
    
    One of the recommendations our contractor (SJK from AMherst, NH) made
    was to use the same color J/F strips as the siding (in our case granite
    gray).      

    	I would imagine that you could go for as long as the vinyl held up.
    At a guess, that would be at least 30 years. I have a brick faced vinyl
    sided Gambrel that's 27 yyears old. Both the vinyl and the brick still
    look fine, with the exception of some chalking on the vinyl.
    
    	Ray

You would have to be sure all your fascias and soffits are also covered with
vinyl.  And, even though you may not have to paint anything, you would probably
have to give it a good washing every couple of years or so.

Elaine

    	I have seen houses done that way. It doesn't look too bad so long
    as you go with a trim color that's different than the rest. I saw a
    gray house that used white facia, outside corners, and overhang and it
    looked OK. Most of the vinyl you get nowadays has wood grain texture
    and doesn't look much different from painted clap boards until you get
    real close.
    
    	It's also much easier to have the house power-washed every few
    years than it is to repaint it.
    	
    	Ray
    
    

    re: .102
    
    Good quality clapboard installed the traditional way,
    smooth side out, and painted correctly, does not exhibit
    any wood grain texture.
    
    Why they manufacture vinyl siding to imitate inferior
    quality clapboard is beyond me. If you go with vinyl
    at least get the smooth stuff.

re .-1  I can't agree more.  I searched for quite awhile to find a style 
of smooth vinyl that I liked.  In fact many of the contractors I talked 
with told me the smooth just wasn't as popular.  I think a lot of it comes 
from the past when the vinal was so glossy that a smooth surface sould look 
like you wrapped your house in plastic.  Some of the current stuff I saw 
(for example from Wolverine) was very good looking and had a nice matt 
finish.

After talking with 5 contractors and getting estimates from $5-9,000 for 
the whole house I opted for cedar and doing it myself.  Cost me about 
$3500.

-Greg

    This is a note concering Vinyl house siding.
    
    I'm considering siding my house with vinyl.
    I'd like to know opinions about the following:
    
    VIPCO brand siding 
    fanfold insulation (perferated foil bound)
    Perfect Exteriors contractor of Manchester, NH
    price quoted $4288 for 26x42 split-level (raised ranch) house
    
    Thanx in advance for anybody's input.
    
    - Bob

   113  11278::KEVIN         31-MAR-1986    75  Vinyl Siding
   437  NETCOM::HARRIS       30-SEP-1986    12  VINYL SIDING source needed.
  1112  BARNUM::SKIEST        5-MAY-1987    10  Remove clapboards before vinyl siding is installed?
  1244  CRETE::FLANNERY      19-JUN-1987     5  Insulated Vinyl Siding
  1337  GLIVET::BROOKS       19-JUL-1987     5  Vinyl siding
  1936  TRACTR::DHOULE        3-FEB-1988     4  VINYL SIDING INFO ??
  2032  JOET::WEISS          22-FEB-1988    13  Vinyl / Aluminum siding contractors
  2572  WMOIS::POSCO         23-AUG-1988     5  Paint verse's Vinyl siding,deduct ??
  2720  DEALIN::CHAN         17-OCT-1988     2  vinyl siding covering vents!
  3225  GIAMEM::M_CLEMENT    11-MAY-1989     1  Cost of Vinyl Siding ???
  3361  RAIN::MCGRORY        19-JUL-1989     7  Covering asbestos shingles with vinyl siding
  3483  2EASY::DRURY         14-SEP-1989    13  Insulite or Vinyl for siding?
  3784  GIAMEM::ERSKINE      12-APR-1990     1  Wood trim on vinyl siding
  4385  YIELD::BARBIERI      30-SEP-1991    21  URGENT - Should I pull out of vinyl siding deal?
  4710  DELNI::MENTCH        11-AUG-1992     6  Vinyl Siding/Replacement Windows Experience

>        <<< Note 5658.1 by NETRIX::michaud "Jeff Michaud, That Group" >>>
>      -< Well what do you know, there are existing topics to look at :-) >-

	    Yeah, but ONLY about a dozen!  (^%

    I'm looking to add vinyl siding to the end walls of my house (rest of
    house is brick) at the attic level. Currently there are vertical boards
    there, needing painted regularly !  I would expect that there would be
    no need for me to put up insulation layers first ( aluminum covered
    etc)......but I'm not entirely sure if there are any other benefits
    associated with this....or risks if I don't.
    So, does anyone see any potential problems with just nailing the siding
    directly onto these boards ?  Obviously using all the correct side and
    window edging also.
    
    Trevor

    	I wouldn't expect a problem. I believe Georgia Pacific puts out a 
    free "how to" booklet for their vinyl siding. I'd get this and look
    through it, as there are other things you'll want to know (like not
    driving the nails tight to the siding).
    
    	Also, HQ and Home Depot usually have free seminars and this is
    one of the topics they cover. If you have one nearby, might be worth 
    the couple of hours. The price it right, anyway ;-)
    
    	Ray

    Thanks Ray,
    		Picked up the small help books from HD, they look pretty
    good and give tips on how to plan the job too. Didn't have anyone
    helping out at the siding area and I didn't find anyone able to help
    with the seminar, but I'll definitely keep trying. Seems this would be a
    great help. Did some rough costing using the guide book, only served to
    reinforce my original thoughts, it's a huge saving doing it yourself,
    it is far less expensive for materials than I had thought.
    
    Trevor