Conference 7.286::home_work

The Time-Life series "Home Repair and Improvement" has a book entitled "Heating
and Cooling" which has several pages on tuning up oil burners, including using
draft, smoke, and CO2 (carbon dioxide) tests.  I am not sure if it is available
in bookstores. 

I can copy the pages and send them to you if you like (mailstop?).

You might also investigate burner service contracts with your oil dealer.
You at least get an annual tune-up and cleanout and some piece of mind I
suppose (although it seems every oil serviceman I have dealt with always
seems to say "the last guy who looked at this didn't do a good job...")

By the way, most of the time when I burner fails to start it can be
resuscitated  by pushing the reset button on the relay box.  Did you notice
what the serviceman did last time he visited?  Perhaps you have a sticky
limit switch or some other part which can be replaced.

__Rich

Don't know where you're located, but we use a fellow named Joe Petrain. 
He is quite reasonable and on call from 5pm to 5 am (the time most emergencies
seem to occur).  The last time we called him, he came out, changed a pump
motor (we had the new one on hand), lubed the pump, and checked it out for
$20.  I call that reasonable!  His number is 883-1711 and you can tell him
that I recommended him.  He does boiler work for Sanders full time and this
in the evenings and weekends.

You can usually get your oil a little bit cheaper if you specify "no service"
when you buy it.  The oil companies usually figure in a small charge to cover
the service that you MIGHT need while burning their oil.

Bruce Bretschneider

If you're having as much trouble with your oil burner as your note seems
to imply, you might want to consider getting a new burner or a new 
repairman or both.  My experience has been that oil burners are remarkably
relaible and seldom if ever need service except for an annual cleaning.

If you're anywhere near Boylston (Mass.) you might want to give Carlisle
Fuel Co. a call.  I've dealt with them for about four years now and been
totally satisfied.  The one time I needed emergency service Phil Carlisle
came to my house in Bolton (about a half-hour drive) at 7:30 on a Sunday
night, stayed about an hour, and charged me a total of $18 including the
cost of a new motor.  He does an annual clean/adjust of the whole system
for a flat rate of $35, which includes a new filter for the oil tank, a
new nozzle, complete vacuuming of the boiler and smoke pipe, and an
efficiency test.  It just isn't worth it to me to spend my time driving
around collecting parts, then wasting a Saturday morning getting all sooty
and oily just to save $35 (less the cost of the parts and the gas used
to go get them).  Besides, I don't have the test instruments to do the
efficiency tests anyway, and you can't really adjust the flame properly 
without them.  One of those efficiency test instruments is about $250, I 
believe; at that rate I can have him come and do the work for seven years, 
at $35/year, and still be money ahead not to mention all the hassle saved.

He probably charges few cents more per gallon than "oil-only" places,
but he also gives a $.02/gallon discount if I pay within 10 days.  The
convenience and dependability seem well worth it to me.  I KNOW he will
come when I need him, and I know he'll fix it right - the first time.

Now that I've totally shot down the idea of doing the work yourself - I
must say I think it's a good idea to know how to do it yourself, even if
you don't actually do the work, just so you can keep the repairman honest.
A vocational school night course sounds like a great idea.

Steve

thanks to all who responded to my question.

Later,

Carl 

Hmm.

I have a large "older" home and have the unusual situation of having two
(count 'em) furnaces, one gas, one oil (don't ask).  When I bought the house,
the inspector told me that there were pro's and con's to shutting off the 
pilot to the gas burner for the summer.  The pro is $.  The con is if the cellar
is humid (which mine is), the low heat from the pilot can cut down on rusting.
Conservative person that I am, I leave the pilot on. 

Now, on the oil burner, I figured that there was no point in doing anything.
The thermostat is turned way down, it does not have a tankless heater.  BUT,
occasionally, the burner goes on for a couple of minutes.  I haven't worried
too much about this, but it's beginning to make me wonder.  Why is it going on?
Should I shut down the power?  Should I count my blessings and assume that the
occasional heat helps prevent rust?  One of these days I'll catch it happening
and run down and check the circulator.  I Hhope THAT's not running.  

any ideas?

--ed/

Yes.  If your oil burner is anything like mine, the thermostat only controls
the circulating pump.  There is another thermostat (called the "aquastat")
in the boiler itself that controls the burner.  Normally, when the house
temperature drops, the house thermostat turns on the circulating pump.  This
causes the boiler water temperature to drop, which causes the burner to come
on.

In the summer, when the circulating pump never runs, the boiler water loses
heat slowly through the boiler casing.  Occasionally, the temperature drops
low enough and the burner turns on to maintain temperature.

Basically you're paying for keeping the boiler hot when you don't need it.
I suppose it's about like leaving your gas pilot on in the summer.

	-Jim

    
    
    	I hope that this doesn't add more problems, but...
    
    	I have a two-family home that originally did not have separate
    	utilities.  I had oil heat, and gas hot water.  In planning
    	the job, I was informed by the inspector that I should not have
    	both gas and oil vented into the same chimney.  I had to make
    	a choice, and went with the gas because the gas company GIVES
    	AWAY good stuff to convert from oil to gas.  (Stuff like water
    	heaters and oil-to-gas conversion burners!  BTW, this is why I 
    	have an oil tank to give away...).
    
    	Anyway, if you have the two different burners vented into the
    	same chimney, you could have a fire hazard.  As it was explained
    	to me, fumes from one could be ignited by the other,  I do not
    	recall which endangers the other.  As the law stands today (this
    	is in Lowell, I do not know if this is a city, state, or federal
    	law...) new installations cannot mix the fumes in the chimney.
    
    	Joe O.
    

>                 -< are both burners vented in same chimney? >-

no.  the house has 3 chimneys.  One for the gas and a couple fireplaces,
one for the oil burner, one for two gas water heaters.  

--ed

	Before shutting down your furnace you might want to make

	sure it isn't also supplying your hot water to sink/tub etc.

    I've been shutting off our oil furnace during the summer since the
    price of oil went to 1.29.  I just flip the switch that turns on
    the furnace and in 10 min. we have hot water.  

    When the oil burner or the hot water heater is firing, I get a VERY
    annoying whine that seems to reverberate throughout the heating
    and water pipes in the house.  The noise does not come from the
    circulation pump.
    
    I've tried isolating the oil feed line with a pice of neoprene,
    but that didn't help significantly.  I thought I might be getting
    cavitation from the burner pump on the return line, but havn't
    isolated it yet.  When I tried separating the return line from the
    oil tank (1K gal), I realized that there was no shut-off and that
    I was siphoning from the bottom of the tank (fun fun fun!).  A few 
    weeks ago the burner repairman replaced one burner motor and said 
    that he thought the noise might be from pressure on the thrust bearing
    on the burner motors.  He tightened and loosened the bolts holding the 
    motor to burner unit, which did alter the noise somewhat, but it's
    still there.
    
    Does anyone have any other ideas as to what's going on?  I'd like
    to have a quieter furnace.  
          

My experience with oil burners makes me suspect the oil pump. They are 
vane types and can sometimes cause the whine you are hearing. You can 
see for yourself by taking a long-handeled screwdriver and placing the 
tip on the pump and listening at the other end while the burner is 
running. Move the screwdriver around the burner assembly to locate the 
place where the noise is the loudest. That'll help pinpoint the exact 
location of the whine.

Short of replacing the pump assembly on a hunch, see if you can isolate
the heating unit from the house by using flexible high
temperature/pressure hoses. 


Good luck...

        Our house and hot water are heated by oil.
        Can somebody explain -in lay terms- the separate roles of an
        oil burner and a boiler in this process?
    
				thnx
       				herb

    Alot depends on the age of the system. My inlaws place is built
    in the early '60s. Their boiler is natural gas fired using a
    pressurized closed loop with copper pipes embeded inside the concrete
    floor. The loop includes a pressurizing pump and expansion tank
    where a water coil, connected to the feed line to the hot water-tank.
    The coil, thus, is a preheat to the hotwater tank.
    
    The older systems used to be heat and hot water supply in one. The
    hot water tank is just a container for the hotwater and is not
    seperated as in the more recent systems.
    
    The latest "high tech" systems includes a solar panel as aprt of
    the loop to let the sun preheat the water and thus, savings on the
    heating bill.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    /cal hoe

    Boiler:	Applies to hot water or steam systems.  The place
    		where the hot water or steam gets heated.  
    Furnace:	Applies to hot air systems.  The place where the air
    		get heated.  
    Burner:	The thing that does the heating.  In the case of an
    		oil-fired heating system, the burner assembly is
    		(usually) replacable.  (I'm not sure about gas -- never
    		owned one.)
    
    Steve

    our house was built in 1956 and has the original equipment, which
    includes a 4-gallon "tankless".  About two years ago we added a "holding
    tank" which is 80 gallons. Now 4 people can take showers one after
    another, before barely one person could take a shower. As explained
    to me the water in the 80 gallon "holding tank" is "thermostatically
    recycled" through the tankless.
    
    			herb

I have a new house with new FHW system.  The boiler (place where heat
exchange with water occurs) includes a tankless heater for the hot water
for the house.  Units such as these are rated for so many degree rise
per volume of water/unit time at such and such psi.  If properly sized
you in effect get a hot water heater with infinite hot water.  So long
as the burner can run you can have hot water all day long.  It works
fine and the nice thing about it is you don't heat water needlessly
or attempt to keep water hot when you are not using.  Our system has
a hot water override so we get hot water only when we call for it.  From
dead cold in the winter it takes 7 minutes to have full hot water.  We
do this so when we are not home the burner never runs.

    re .4
    Good point on the tankless! 
    The reason we added a passive 80 gallon storage tank was that
    our *4* gallon tankless could not keep up with the hot water demands
    of our showers (both of which have water savers). My impression
    is that if one is considering a system that includes a tankless
    that the tankless should be at least 10 gallon. 
    btw; is the gallon rating the nr. of gallons per minute that the
    tankless will heat up and deliver? 

    
    
    			herb

>    btw; is the gallon rating the nr. of gallons per minute that the
>    tankless will heat up and deliver? 

    
    
Re: 5  What's nr.?  Nominal rating?

My unit is rated for 100 degree rise for 4 gallons a minute at 40 psi.  They
use a restrictor on the inlet of the tankless to insure that you do not draw
water faster then it can heat it.  The showers don't blast but with water
savers being used a lot its about the same.  With this system you cannot
draw water throught the tankless faster than what it can keep up with ---
soooo as long as the water supply is adequate for your needs (we cannot
take two showers simulatenously) you will never run out.  We have adjusted
nicely to this system and I believe it is the least expensive way to heat
your water - especially if you have a good burner and oil stays cheap :^).

    re .6
    by nr. I meant number. The question should have read
    "btw; is the gallon rating the number of gallons per minute that
    the tankless will heat up and deliver?"
    
    I believe your answer covers that question, Peter.
    
    
    Since your 4 gallon tankless works fine, that is an additional piece
    of evidence suggesting *my* 4 gallon (30 yr old) tankless is operating
    at sub par efficiency.
    
    
    			thnx
    			herb

    With my tankless system, my wife and I cannot take back-to-back
    showers. What is even worse, we cannot fill the tub with warm water
    so we can give our son a bath. The water gets ice cold before the
    tub is even half full. What do you suggest that I do ??? I can't
    replace the oil fired burner as I rent my house. I do have gas for
    cooking and for our dryer. Maybe I should add a gas fired water
    heater ??? What about a oil-fired water heater ?? I heard that this
    type of heater does not have a long life ??? What about the cost
    of this ????

< Note 510.8 by PNEUMA::TRACY >
                              -< Brrrrr !!!!!!!! >-

>    With my tankless system, my wife and I cannot take back-to-back
>    showers. What is even worse, we cannot fill the tub with warm water
>    so we can give our son a bath. The water gets ice cold before the
>    tub is even half full. What do you suggest that I do ??? I can't
>    replace the oil fired burner as I rent my house. I do have gas for
>    cooking and for our dryer. Maybe I should add a gas fired water
>    heater ??? What about a oil-fired water heater ?? I heard that this
>    type of heater does not have a long life ??? What about the cost
>    of this ????


Since your renting I would complain about the hot water service.  I think
its totally unreasonable not to be able to take a bath.  A tankless system
haa no holding tank so it HAS to be able to deliver constant hot water
at a given rate or its useless.  When's the last time the heat exchanger
was cleaned.  They get really crudded up and must be cleaned once a year
to insure good heat transfer.  What's the boiler high temp cut off?
When's the last time the burner was serviced?  Maybe its running lousy?
Maybe the damn thing is not running hot enough.  How quickly is the water
being delivered.  Maybe the water is being drawn too fast to maintain
sufficient heat transfer.  When the water is hot how hot does it get?
Does the system having a mixing valve at the furnance?  With our system
for winter we set the boiler temp at 190 deg.  This means even before
the water gets to us upstairs it has to be mixed down by the mixing
valve to 150.

Hope some of these suggestions and things to look at help -

peter

I have a similar problem with my tankless (oil) domestic hot water.  I can
get a reasonable shower by running almost no cold water (in mid-winter, I
run only hot), but the tub draws water too fast and ends up cold.  The same
for the dishwasher and clothes washer.  The boiler aquastat is set for 180�,
the tankless aquastat for 170 �.  The burner cycles on and off, even when
the water is not hot enough, which says to me that the problem is in the
heat exchanger.  It claims it's rated for 8 gallons per minute, and I know
I'm not drawing anything near that.

I had an oil man tell me that I needed an "acid flush", which consisted of
cutting the input and output copper pipes, and running acid through the coil
to attempt to get the growth out.  Is this a reasonable procedure, or do I
run the risk of having holes in my coil?

	-Jim

    See note 496
    
    None of the plumbers we talked to when converting from steam to
    FHW recommended even the newest "tankless" heaters.  We had nothing
    but trouble with ours and converted to a Paloma (a true tankless).
    
    You *might* get by with an acid flush if it is a newer unit (and
    will not fall apart).  But even at best they're a compromise.  We
    wasted many gallons of oil before we converted!
    
    Alex
    

    	Re: .10 I had my tankless flushed about 2 years ago  and had
    	no problems with leaks (but the potential is there and I was
    	warned of that) After the flushing there was a little
    	improvement and I ended up replacing the mixing valve
    	(twice so far) and now have all the hot water I need. The
    	guts of the valve can be replaced and you do not need to
    	solder anything.
    
    			Steve
    

     When my wife and I rented, we had to rent our own hot water heater
    from the gas co.(~$2.50 mo.) We still rent the hot water heater
    in our home for ~ $4.00 a month. Since the gas is coming in....
    why not rent a HWH from the gas co.? For 4 bucks a month it
    sure sounds like a good deal with what you're going through.

    re .13
    o.k. the gas HWH rental is $4.00 per month.
    
    What is the cost of the additional gas consumption?
    
    			h

      Call the Gas co. and find out! Tell them your problem, find out
    what size to rent and they'll give you a guesstimate on consumption
    and cost. Whatever it cost....it beats turning your children blue!

    I was just wading though this rather large notes file (I'm new here)
    and I find it quite interesting and informative. With Respect to
    this note I'm rather suprised that nobody has mentioned something
    called a 'boiler-mate'. Amtrol makes this I believe, and with oil
    it's one of the most efficient ways of making hot water. I built
    my own house about 1 1/2 years ago and had this installed with a
    87% AFU (annual fuel utilization) efficentcy. This unit does NOT
    work off the tankless heater in the boiler. It is a separate heating
    zone in itself. It has a 38 gal capacity and is rated to lose only
    1/2 a degree per hour (it's foam insulated). The best part is that
    when the sucker calls for hot water, it gets heated by the boiler
    that's running at 87%. With a tankless coil most of the BTU's that
    the burner is outputting is going up the chimmney. The recovery
    rate on this unit is also quite outstanding. I was able to fill
    my king size water bed with approx 100 degree water non stop without
    having to make any adjustments to the hot/cold water mix from the
    faucet. Even with this massive amount of hot water the boiler was
    able to cycle on and off during the fill of the bed.
    
    Price: about $500 + 1 zone
    
    						Dave Hartwell
    

    Yes, I have the Amtrol Boilermate also.  Maybe that explains my
    low oil consumption for hot water.

    See note 496.4
    
    I plan to install a Boilermate when my Paloma goes out.

    I like my Amtrol unit very much.  We never lack for hot water under
    any circumstances.   We were once able to take hot showers after
    3 days of power outage.  Very nice.

    Visit note 496.6, 
                          Any comments from someone else who compared

    Gas hot water heaters now rent for 8.93/month from both Colonial
    Gas (Lowell) and Bay State Gas (Lawrence).  You should check your
    prices.  Note, though, that once you get a price it stays for life
    (as long as you own the house, I think), so the $4.00 price was
    probably from a while back and has stuck with you.
    
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    From what I understand they are not as efficient. Somewhere around
    60-65% for the average oil fired unit. I have also heard that the
    life expectantcy of these is limited (3 years is a figure I have
    heard several times).
    
    I can surmise that they ARE cheaper than electric, and most probably
    cheaper to operate than a tankless coil in the boiler.
    
    						Dave Hartwell
    

    
    	I have an oil fired hot water heater that came with my house.
    From my understanding they are *very* cost effective.  I used 42
    gal of oil from July 15-Oct15 for two showers per day plus laundry.
    I have the temp set at 120 deg.
    
    					=Ralph=
    					

    I also had an oil fired hot water heater in my previous house
    which I was very pleased with.  I rented it from the oil company,
    had it serviced every year, and had no problems with it the 7 years
    I lived there.  Mine was a 30 gallon unit.
    
    -willie
    

    A related question -- a friend of mine has a house with two 
    furnaces -- one is oil, the other wood (no kiddin'! - it's
    weird!)  Anyway, there are two thermostats, one that controls
    the circulating fan for the wood side, and the other -- well,
    that's the problem.  The other thermostat is gone.  The wire is
    still there, but the thermostat is no more.
    
    No problem, buy and hook up a new thermostat -- so I did.
    
    This is where I get confused.  What, exactly, do you have to do
    to get the oil burner to turn on?  I'm baffled.
    
    					Thanks,
    					Andrew

>                  -< How do you turn an Oil Burner Back on?? >-

Most oil burners turn on and off by an "emergency switch" on the main floor
of the house.  I bet that if you trace the power wires from the furnace,
they'll go to a normal light switch somewhere in the living area.

re .6

how to turn on the oil burner may depend on how the system was
installed and by who. The question to answer first is for what
purpose is each thermostat. My father had a wood stove in the
living room. He wired a second thermostat to the oil furnace,
one in the dinning room (right off the living room) and the other
in another part of the house. The way it was wired, the furnace
(FHW) would be shut down (the burner would not keep coming on
to keep the core hot) as long as the temp in the other part of the
house remained above a certain level (such as 45-50 degrees). If
the temp fell below that, then the furnace would operate normal, 
using the main thermostat as its control. Why you ask, well the
second thermostat was in a normally cool room. Its purpose was
to provide a backup to the wood stove to keep pipes from freezing
in the event of real cold weather or the stove went out. The
effect of the second thermostat was to turn on/off the low water
temp sensor circuit in the furnace. This is not the way I would
have done it but it worked.


bill

    >                  -< it may not be staightforward >-
    
    It wasn't.  It wasn't the emergency switch (Prominently placed, with
    AC running through it.)
    
    Power was traced to a box on the furnace, but *not* to the oil burner
    itself.  So what do we do now?  Surrender, and call the Oil company.
    
    I'll let you know how this is resolved.
    
    					Andrew

    Are you sure that the thermostat is closing and that there is
    continuity down to the furnace?  There are two more ways my FHA furnace
    can be shut off.  There may be two switches on the furnace that look
    like ordinary wall switches.  One shuts off the blower and the other
    the burner. Additionally, if the furnace is older it may have a
    box (can't remember the name for it) mounted on the smoke pipe
    that senses the exhaust heat of the furnace.  In my case, the
    thermostat wire goes to this box.  The box has a reset button on
    it that if it is tripped will prevent the burner from starting.  If you
    have such a box, try to reset it.  The purpose of the box is to
    turn off the oil pump/burner if it doesn't ignite in a certain period
    of time.  
                                  
    Marty
    

    I am thinking of add a second 275 gallon fuel oil tank in my cellar,
    in fact, I have already got one in place that was given to me.  What
    I would like to know is;  
        Are there any special state codes or restrictions?
        Has anyone else done this?
        How do you have the fill pipe connected?
        How do you have the two tanks connected?
    The reason I would like to have two tanks is to take advantage of
    lower prices during the off season and possibly volume discounts.
    
    Has anyone done this?  Or what do you think?
        

>    I am thinking of add a second 275 gallon fuel oil tank in my cellar,
>    in fact, I have already got one in place that was given to me.  What
>    I would like to know is;  
>        Are there any special state codes or restrictions?
 
    The fire department issues permits for fuel storage. Ask them about
   local regulations. In my town two (or more) tanks are not too uncommon.

>       Has anyone else done this?

     see above
 
>       How do you have the fill pipe connected?
 
    You have a separate fill pipe for each 275 gal tank. The vent pipes
    can be connected together inside.

>       How do you have the two tanks connected?
 
    On the outlet of EACH tank BEFORE the filter you have to have a shuttoff
    valve. This is so the filter can be changed. After the fuel filters, you
    go to a T connection.
 
 
    One bit of advice, be carefull of used tanks. You should before it is
filled the first time wash it out (with some fuel oil) all the sediment, water
and other crap that might be in the bottom. Second thing is be wary of any
rust. A little water in the bottom of the tank will make little pinholes
in the tank and pretty soon you could end up with puddles on you cellar
floor. If you inspect the tank well and it looks like no rust has attacked,
then you should be all right. The major work in installing the second tank 
will be putting in another hole for the second fill pipe and then threading 
and connecting the vent pipe to the existing one.

Bill

    RE: .10
    
    		The box is called a "stack relay" and is very prone
    to fail in older oil-fueled furnaces. Its purpose is to make sure
    that when the burner is fired (by demand of the thermostat) it really
    does ignite and not just dump fuel oil into the combustion chamber,
    if it doesn't sense any heat it (because of lack of ignition) it
    will shut down the burner. It usually takes several minutes for
    it to reset itself before it'll let the burner try again. Unfortunately
    the sensor is mounted in the exhaust stream leaving the burner and
    therefore can get so dirty it will malfunction and not let the burner
    come on at all. It then has to be cleaned or replaced. It can be
    easily checked out by checking for continuity when the exhaust flue
    is cold and its been long enough for it to reset itself if it had
    just previously interrupted the furnace cycle. 
    
    	These days they use photocells mounted directly on the burner
    to detect for ignition instead of stack relays.
    						/Glenn
    

>    These days they use photocells mounted directly on the burner
>    to detect for ignition instead of stack relays.

    ...which are not without problems: they occasionally get "blinded"
    by dust/soot/etc and cause the same problems... a quick brush with
    alcohol usually fixes this ailment (sounds almost human!)

    				...tek
    

    re .2
    	I spoke to one of the inspectors in Lowell yesterday and was
    told that you can't vent gas and oil fired boilers or whatever in
    the same chimney. He also told me to talk to Frank Black, the gas
    inspector. I talked to Frank this morning and he told me that I
    could vent a gas hot water heater and an oil burner in the same
    chimney. He said that gas appliances and wood or coal stives cannot
    share the same chimney but oil and gas were all right.
    		Charlie
    

    Anyone out there know where I can get a Boilermate?
    Installing's no problem - I've done a lot of work on
    my boiler/burner. I just called the guy I get supplies
    from (nozzles, circulators, etc) and he doesn't carry
    them. I'm in Marlboro, Ma.
    
    /Floyd

I don't know anyone near you.  But it is very common.  Call North 
Andover Supply and get the details.  686-0711

    The owner's manual/service info booklet for my oil burner states
    that a 1.00 gal/hour nozzle be used for my furnace.  It specifically
    states that only the recommended size be used.
    
    Now, my oil service company is telling me that I should use a .85
    nozzle.  Reasons like "1.00 is too big for your house", "we always 
    use one 20% smaller than the manufacturer says."
    
    Who's right?

    ...well, it depends.  An oil burner is most efficient when it runs
    all the time.  Short-cycling leads to inefficiency.  Since your
    need for heat keeps changing all the time as the outside temperature
    changes, any heating system has to compromise.  About the best you
    can do (in theory) is size the heating system so the burner runs 
    100% of the time on the coldest day of the year.  Virtually all
    heating systems are bigger than they need to be, using that guideline.
    You can down-size your heating system's capacity by using a smaller
    nozzle; this will make it run for a longer period of time when it
    comes on, making it more efficient. However, the boiler itself is
    designed for maximum efficiency with a certain size nozzle.  If
    you change the nozzle size the boiler won't be quite as efficient
    as it might otherwise be.  So you have a tradeoff.  Get efficiency
    by downsizing the nozzle so the burner doesn't short-cycle as much,
    and at the same time lose efficiency because the boiler is more
    efficient with a larger nozzle.
    Personally, I'd go with the smaller nozzle.  My gut feel is you'll
    gain more than you'll lose.  But I certainly don't know, for sure.

    I recently had my furnace serviced (smoke pouring from the flue
    pipe when it started) and cleaned.  The service man replaced the
    old nozzle (which was different than what was recommended).  There
    was a large sticker on the furnace (somewhere) saying (in large
    letters) to ONLY use a certain size nozzle.  He pointed out that if
    the size of nozzle didn't matter, the manufacturer would have put
    such a conspicuous notice on the furnace.  Sounds hard to argue
    with.  Maybe the wrong size nozzle contributed to my problem.  The
    furnace was VERY dirty and needed to be cleaned earlier than normal.

    P.S. Wrong size nozzle complements of previous owners.

    If an oil burner is designed to mix a certain amount of fuel with
    a certain amount of air, then perhaps:
    
    	o  using a smaller nozzle means less fuel than can be oxidized
    	   by the available air, which is another way of saying more
    	   air than is needed to oxidize the available fuel - excess
    	   air cools the combustion gases, decreasing effeciency
    
    	o  using a larger nozzle means more fuel than can be burned
    	   completely, decreasing effeciency and causing dense clouds
    	   of black smoke

    My Story. > My Weil McLain Boiler was installed last year. I came
    as a package unit with a Becket retension burner. The nozzle the
    burner came fitted with from the factory was a .85 GPH / 80 degree. 
    
    Now the instruction or data sheet manual for the becket burner (Model
    AFG) included a chart which said that for my size boiler (P366 HEW)
    the nozzle required was a 1.00 GPH / 80 deg.
    
    NOWWWW if you observe the stamped metal plate fastened to the boiler
    it indicates a maximum firing rate of >>> .95 GPH <<< contridicting
    the data given in the burner manual SUPPLIED W/ THE BOILER! @#$%!!  

    Anyway, when the boilerman fitted the burner w/ the 1.00 nozzle,
    I questioned him. He said what I expected....>  .15 GPH difference
    between the two nozzles wasn't going to amount to any performance
    difference that was noticable. When I asked him why he didn't replace
    the nozzle with the same type .... he said that according to the
    directions for the burner...supplied with the boiler ...1.00 GPH
    as I stated above. I myself like to follow the directions supplied
    with a piece of equipment also.
    
    The bottom line is that with an increase of .15 GPH the boiler
    will reach high limit (~200-210 deg. F) just a tad sooner than it
    would have with a .85 GHP nozzle. Not a big deal but I must admit
    I questioned the whole deal for a period of time until I finally
    was satisfied this past weekend.

    RE: .2 > The slightly different size nozzle didn't contribute to
             your problem with a dirty furnace. The burner just needed
             tuning which I assume the serviceman did. Although your
             nozzle could have been clogged as well.
    
    Basic tune-up :  * change nozzle
                     * adjust draft using damper control by noting % CO2
                       read on test instrument
                     * set air band on burner to data sheet spec, set
                       air shutter according to data sheet spec as a
                       starting point, then vary the air shutter +/-
                       for ZERO smoke (or just a trace) again using
                       test instruments.
    
    I always like to know exactly what these servicemen do so I understand
    more about this investment of mine. BTW , I have a 1000 gal.
    underground tank which I had filled up Memorial Day weekend 1986,
    last time I looked it was just below half full. My tank serves both
    my heat and domestic hot water...lets see I paid $.545/gal which
    will translate to probably less than $500. for a year of hot water and
    nice FHW heat. I don't expect to run out before Memorial day.
    
    How 'bout you guys? What do you figure you paid for a year of heat
    and hot water. I'll have to admit being surprised at these figures
    but if we stuck to 'oil consumption' in gallons it would be easier
    to compare notes.
    
    MArk  

>    How 'bout you guys? What do you figure you paid for a year of heat
>    and hot water?

We pay about $15-20 a month for LP gas hot water, cooking, and clothes dryer, 
we have one of the instant-hot water heaters.  For heat we have a passive solar 
house, with wood stove and electric backup.  We don't have any window quilts up 
yet, but intend to have them up by next winter, so we're still losing much more 
heat at night than we should. (I figured out once that roughly 2/3 of the 
house's heat loss is through the windows, and that's not counting infiltration)
So far this winter, we've only turned the electric heaters on a couple of 
times; on the two nights last weekend when it was below zero, plus a couple of 
mornings when the stove had gone out without burning its wood.  Aside from that,
we ought to finish up the cord and a half of wood that we bought by sometime in 
mid-late March.

This past week has been especially nice.  Just before bed, I start up a fire 
and put two or three logs in, and let that burn overnight.  That's it.  The sun 
has kept us warm the rest of the time.  Once we get the window quilts up, I'm 
hoping that we won't have to have a fire at all on nights after sunny days.
That should drop our wood consumption to about a cord a year.

Paul

    The furnace that I just purchased has a Becket burner, and can be
    set up for 78,000 to 115,000 BTU by changing the nozzle size and
    re-tuning.  The chart with it shows:
        Nozzle size    Output    Certified
            GPH        BTU/HR      AFUE %
        -----------    ------    ---------
           1.00        115,000      81.7
           0.85        100,000      84.1
           0.75         89,000      84.4
           0.65         78,000      85.0
    So, I can change from 81.7% efficiency to 85% by just changing the
    nozzle from a 1.0 to a .65 GPH and re-tuning.  (If 78,000 BTU is
    enough to heat the house.)

    Jim D.

    In my previous house I attached a run-hour meter that ran off 110
    volts to my oil burner. That way I could keep track of how long
    the furnace ran and monitor the effects of different tunings, added
    insulation, etc. Coupled with the nozzle size you could estimate
    the oil used.
    
    Nick

    Thanks for all the replies.
    
    Two more oil burner questions:
    
 1. My burner tends to "short cycle," that is, during one period of
    the thermostat calling for heat, my burner will cycle on and off
    (hitting the high temp limit) several times.  Very inefficient
    apparently.  This is presumably caused by insufficient air flow
    thru the duct work (I have FHA).
    
    My plan is to increase the blower speed by adjusting or replacing
    a pulley.  Is the proper way to prevent overloading the motor: measuring
    the supply current and comparing it to the motor rating?
    
 2. I currently have this other burner problem.  When cold, my burner
    will turn on with this sequence:
    
    	1. Thermostat calls for heat, burner starts, flame ignites.
    	2. about 1 second later, flame goes out, burner still running.
    	3. 3-4 seconds later, flame re-ignites.
    
    This happens consistently, but does not happen when the burner is
    warmed up (that is, going through one of its "short cycling" sequences
    described above).   Any ideas?
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    __Rich

	Sounds like a fuel-air flow problem at the burner.  I'd guess
	the burner is blowing the flame out and reigniting it before
	the no-flame timer trips.  Does the flame-out cycle ever repeat?

	Guessing further: the short cycling is caused by too much
	fire relative to the cooling of the blower.  I wouldn't speed
	up the blower.  Have the burner checked.

	Regards, Robert.

    Did you try adjusting the thermostat?  There's a little rheostat
    called, I think, the "anticipator" that is supposed to eliminate
    just the problem you described.

    RE: .8 > 2. I currently have another burner problem. When cold,
           >     my burner will turn on with this sequence:
    
           >     1. Thermostat calls, burner starts, flame ignites.
           >     2. about 1 sec. later, flame goes out, burner still
           >        running 
           >     3. 3-4 secs. later, flame re-ignites.   

    Rich, I just recently experienced this same phenomenon. At first
    I though it was attributed to the extreme cold temps. affecting
    the flow of oil from my underground tank. (I was told that the oil
    CAN coagulate under extreme cold temps.) Then I thought air in the
    lines might be the problem.....so I bleed the oil line at the burner.
    There was air in the line, thought it was solved, but burner continued
    to operate just as you described. >>Burner fires, 2-3 secs. go by,
    loose ignition for about 4 secs.(burner still running), then ignition
    again without any abnormality for the remainder of the cycle.
    
    Well, I needed the oilman at this point. He at first thought the
    same as I about the oil coagulating in the cold because of the
    underground tank. Then he suspected air as we observed (through
    the port on the boiler) the lack of oil in the combustion box
    during the period when the burner still ran but no ignition was
    present. He then hooked up a vacuum gauge to the inlet on the oil pump
    that draws the oil from the tank. We observed a vacuum but also
    observed a slight fluctuation in the needle indicating air entering
    into the oil line at some point, possibly at a fitting. Well, we
    tightened all the fittings to no avail. Then, after reading over
    the directions supplied with the oil pump (I kept all the data sheets
    for all the components of the boiler) I noticed in capital letters
    "DO NOT use compression fittings" for the oil line. "USE ONLY" flare
    fittings. I guess compression fittings could tend to loose a complete
    air tight seal over time or when subject to vibration. Anyway I
    had compression fittings all over the place. The installer told
    me he would come back and replace these with FLARE fittings. I'll
    need to verify lack of air with vacuum gauge again. Hope this does
    the trick. I'll fill you in with the outcome.

    MArk

    re: problem when cold burner starts
    
    Update:
    	The problem has gone away.  Mysteriously.  Nothing was changed.
    
    I'm beginning to believe the "cold oil" idea.  What bothers me about
    that is that cold weather is _exactly_ time time you'd like a reliable
    furnace.
    
    __rich

        Re. Cold burner starts
                
                Two questions.
                
                1. Did you check/clean/replace the filter(s)??
                
                2. Did you just receive a delivery of oil?
                
                
                Two things that can happen which are very related. The
        filters can get partially clogged with crud and cause erratic
        fuel flow. The source of most of that crud is a layer of algae
        (yup, it grows without light) which can form on the boundary
        between the oil and the water (the water goes to the bottom and
        never gets drawn off [it's formed by condensation primarily]).
        This is not a problem unless you are burning oil at a fairly
        rapid rate (you did say it had been cold) and either you just
        got a delivery (which stirs up the tank and takes a while to
        settle [days]) or you've got an excess of the algae getting into
        the supply pipe which usually means an excess of water in the
        bottom of the tank.
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    		During the past two months, I have had to use the 
    	reset button on my oil-fired furnace to get the burner to
    	start. It usually happens during the evening and I wake up
    	to a pretty chilly house and even chillier basement!
    	This has happened intermittently and each time I
    	use the reset, the burner starts right up and runs fine.
     
    		What I'd like to know is:
    
    	- What could be causing this?
    	- Is there a do-it-yourself fix for this?
    	- If a particular part is the culprit, any "guesstimate"
    	  as to cost?
    	 
    
    	Any input would be appreciated.. Thanks.
    
    

    RE: .12  >  re: problem when cold burner starts
    
             >  Update:
    	     > The problem has gone away.  Mysteriously.  Nothing was changed.
    
       > I'm beginning to believe the "cold oil" idea.  What bothers me about
       > that is that cold weather is _exactly_ time time you'd like a reliable
       > furnace.
    
     >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Ditto   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    Like magic....but I still want my installer to replace the compression
    fittings with the flare fittings like the oil pump data sheet calls
    for.

    MArk

When was the last time you had your furnace/burner serviced?  

Once (well maybe more than once in my careless days) this happened to me 
It turned out that the oil line from the tank to the burner had air in it, 
so the flow to the burner was irregular.  I think I had let it run dry in the
spring and just had it filled and kicked it on in the fall.

I think the first time I had to call a guy out, and after I saw what he did I 
tried it the next time, real easy.

If this is the problem, all you need to do is bleed the line.  Excuse my 
terminology (or lack of), but I just loosen the fitting (compression type?, 
i.e. it sqeezes the copper tubing closed) where the fuel line goes into the 
burner and let the oil push the air out.  When the oil is running into the 
coffee can (or whatever you put underneath to catch it) just tighten the 
fitting again.

Then again it could be some magical adjustment or small replacement part of 
the burner (jets or something?) but who knows what goes inside of there!  

alf

     There are only couple of things that can cause your problem. If
    you need to reset the burner, then it has shutoff under a fault
    condition. This means that the saftey control has detected no flame
    when it should have detected one. The most common problem for this
    is that you are not getting good ignition. This can be caused by
    a worn nozzle, worn electrodes, clogged filter, bad high voltage
    coil, bad pump, and let us not forget the saftey control could also
    be malfuctioning.(maybe you burner is working perfectly but it doesn't
    think so)
       The most common problem is worn electrodes. During a "tune-up"
    these are are adjusted, the nozzle replaced, the furnace is cleaned,
    the filter replaced, and the air adjusted. Normally this is
    all that is required to get your furnace into good shape. If you
    haven't had the furnace looked at for a year or so then it's time.
    
    			   		Kenny

    
    	As far as service goes, I just had the burner man do a 
    checkup on the furnace and burner about one month ago. I 
    mentioned to him about having to hit the reset and he muttered
    something about the switch connections possibly being dirty and
    he said he would check it out... so i assumed (shame on me!!)
    when he told me that the burner checkup was complete and everything
    was ok, that it in fact had been corrected. I guess I should make
    a phone call and have a word with the man....
    	Anyway, in the meantime, I'll try out some of the suggestions
    I've received so far and see what happens... Intermittent problems
    are lots of fun because just when you think you've fixed them.......
    
    	Thanks again for all the advice.
    

    I had the same problem about three months ago. I kept pressing the
    button to start the burner, but as time wore on it took repeated
    presses, then it eventually stopped working altogether. Turned out to 
    be the high voltage coil/transformer. You'll find this on top of the 
    burner. The part and labor came to roughly forty dollars (If I remember
    correctly). The only problem is, the original coil with the burner
    has a 90 day warranty, replacements only have 30 day warranty. 
    
    Word of caution.. don't press the reset button more than once. Each
    time you press the button you fill the chamber with oil. This is
    a potentially dangerous situation. After my serviceman replaced
    the coil and finished the adjustments, the chamber burned by itself
    for 10 minutes due to the amount of excess fuel I had apparently
    fed it.
    
    Dan

    from my experience over the last few years if you want to fix it
    yourself.  It could also be any of the previously mentioned things
    and it would not hurt to check it all out.  Filters cost about $2
    and are easy to replace.  Transformers are easy to replace. 
                                                               
    Most often the electrodes are worn and the gap is getting excesive,
    causing the secondary in the transformer to short out.  Eventually
    the transformer will cease to work and will need to be replaced.
    If you do not adjust or change the electrodes at the same time the
    transformer will last about six months and will need to be replaced
    again.  If you can find the book for your burner (some installers
    nail it to the rafter above or behind the unit) you will find the
    specs for adjusting the electrodes.  Plumbing supply houses sell
    a guage that slips over the end of the nozzel to give the average
    depth but the gap is what needs to be adjusted also to give the
    proper ignition.                                           
                                                               
    As the last noter pointed out if you repeatedly push the botton
    and it doesn't start the chamber does fill with fuel.  I have lit
    a piece of paper and tossed it in to burn of the excess and start
    the unit when it was really cold on night and the transformer went
    dead.  I had to do this to keep th ehouse warm until I could go
    to get a replacement.  The faint hearted would not want to do this,
    but it is realitivly safe as fuel oil doen't explode unless there
    is a mist or fumes.
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               

     If the burner kicks on and then shuts off, you may have a 
defective heat sensor.  This is more likely to be the case with a CdS 
photodetector ("Cad sensor" in the lingo) than with a bimetalic strip.

    If your system has a Cadmium cell photodetector, there is a good
    chance it's just dirty and needs to have the lens cleaned.
    
    - Rich
    

    I think perhaps .6 and .7 are on the right track.
    
    I am going to make a couple of assumptions:
    
    	1. the burner starts and lights properly
    	2. after a few seconds the burner shuts down.
    
    If this is the case, then .6 and .7 are correct.  The 'electric
    eye' is dirty (happens frequently if the burner is not firing cleanly)
    and cannot 'see' that there is a fire.  This assumes that there
    is an electric eye.  If there is not then there is a termostatic
    switch in the stack switch.  The stack switch is the box hanging
    on the flue pipe.  If this switch heats up from the hot flue gases
    before a certain period of time the burner is allowed to continue
    running.  If not, it shuts down and you have to press the reset
    button.
    
    If the burner is not lighting at all then all of the previous
    suggestions are quite valid.
    
    I hope this helps if you haven't cured the problem by now.
    
    Peter Duke
    

    
      I have to have my Oil Tank filled from inside the basement.
    
      I'd like to put in a outside filler pipe.. Is there any
    
      special requirements I should  know , like the type of pipe,
    
      max. length from tank , .... 
    
      Thanks
    
    /gerry

    I think your local fire dept. could give you information on this.
    In my town, the local fire dept. issues a permit for the oil
    tank/furnace installation.  If they don't know, maybe they could
    direct you to somebody who does.
    
    Does your current tank have an opening that can be connected to?
    How far is the tank from the nearest outside wall?
    
    One possibility is to try to find the stuff used.  I've noticed
    several notes recently of people changing from oil to gas.  They
    may have some parts you could use.  Never done it, myself.  I would
    assume the parts are just threaded black iron from the looks of
    what I have in the basement.

    A couple of questions, though.  Is the fuel oil in the tank hazardous
    to work around or would the tank have to be drained?
    
    Phil

    A comment from one who is switching from oil to gas....
    
    I have a 600 gallon oil tank that is buried under a wing of my
    house.  The fill is outside the house, so the configuration is
    like what you want.
    
    The pipe used to fill the tank has, by necessity, two right
    angles in it.  This causes the oil company to have to use
    what is called a "slow fill" when filling the tank.  The
    problem I have had is that not all the people delivering
    the oil have been really careful about "slow filling" the
    tank and as a result, there is a considerable oil buildup 
    in the ground around the fill pipe.  It doesn't seem to
    bother the flowers that grow there, but the odor is evident
    to me, and I AM concerned about the ecological impact of
    this.
    
    I am switching to gas because I have been told that NH is VERY
    close to passsing legislation outlawing buried tanks.  This
    would mean replacing the tank, which is an added expense.  Also,
    I grew up with gas and am more comfortable with it.  Just
    personal preference.
    
    I know this doesn't give you any specifics, but it is something
    to consider.
    
    Ellen

    
    I'm looking for a reputable and fairly priced Oil Company to
    service my FHA heating system and supply Oil, in the Bellingham
    area.  Comments about what companies to stay away from are most
    welcome....
    
    
    
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    
    Norm...

    I recommed:  Dalpes Oil Service
                 12 Bliss Road
                 So. Bellingham, Ma.
    
    They have always been very quick to respond to any problems
    that I've had.

    While we're discussing oil companies, would anyone care to throw
    in their two cents on the merits of "full service" vs. "all-you-get-
    is-the-oil" oil companies?  I have recently moved into a house heated
    with oil, and found that there's approximately a 20 cent/gallon
    difference in prices being charged by the two types of companies.
    The difference?  Well, ostensibly it's because one (full service)
    has its own servicemen while the other merely recommends servicemen
    with which they have done business previously.  How about it, anyone
    have any druthers one way or another?
    
    Peter

    This probably should have been a new note.  I have a full service
    company.  One reason is, even though I have a brand new house/furnace
    it has an out of production Burnham America (we spoke to the company
    president) furnace that according to some of the servicemen needs a 
    high level of repair.  So far we have had to call the midnight service 
    fairy once each of the two seasons we have used it.  In addition
    to the fall tuneup, of course.  (*thank*yew*, mr. builder - I bet you 
    got a real deal on that one! :-(  )  I have considered going to
    just-oil service but haven't done a cost analysis for my case. 
    So I'd be interested in the thoughts of others also.
    
    Stan
  

    Wait a minute.. last time I checked, there was not only a price
    dif. for the oil, but you still had to pay for the service contract.
    I borrowed a CO2 and smoke gauge, and did the tuneups and cleanings
    myself.
    
    As far as breaking down in the middle of the night..
    I keep a few spares on hand...
    

    Re: .2
    
      If you recently bought a house, I would expect you to receive
    mail from a lot of oil companies trying to get your business. I
    was surprised how much I received. The interesting thing was that
    no one knew that I used oil. The get their mailing list from the
    registry of deeds and hope/assume you use oil when they send you
    the literature.  I let this mail accumulate for a couple of weeks
    and then compared them all.  I ended up going with a company that
    offered me a free service contract for 4 years to get my business.
    The first two years are guaranteed and to keep it going for the
    second two years, I will need to use at least 800 gallons/year (or 
    be relatively maintenance free).  It really depends on whether or
    not you feel that it is worth it to have a service contract.
    Personally, an oil furnace is not something I wish to maintain even
    though it appears to be relatively simple.
    
    -Jim
    

    Re: .5
    
    Isn't it great when you're so popular all of a sudden!
    
    My opinion of those service contracts is that they are a scam. 
    There are many reputable independent burner technicians around.
    They always come in an emergency situation.  Do you think those
    oil companies would offer service contracts if it wasn't to their
    benefit?  I'd rather keep the maintainance and oil seperate.  I
    don't need "furnace insurance" too!
    
    Phil

    I agree with .-1.  I just cancelled my full-service contract this
    fall and went the oil-only route.  In my service contract, a whole
    list of parts were covered.  Of course when I placed a call due
    to a leaky valve, it happened to be one that wasn't covered. So
    on top of the contract (~$90, I think), I had a (~$40 repair bill).
    
    Thanks, but I'll pay as I go from here on.
    
    Rob

    If NH outlaws buried tanks, would that only be for new installations,
    or for any buried oil tank, regardless of age??
    
    	-- Stan
    

    I recently got a letter from a church I no longer attend seeking
    money for a number of projects.  Turns out that one of them
    involves replacing the three buried oil tanks they currently
    have because the law already requires that of commercial and
    industrial facilities.  (Don't know where a church falls in\
    these).  Anyway, apparently they can be replaced with either
    outside tanks or buried tanks of a new material that is not
    prone to rot.  But the bottom line is, they must dig up the
    old ones and replace them.....the price was somewhere around
    $2800 per tank, as I remember.
    
    Ellen
    
    
    

    
    DON'T PRESS THAT RESET BUTTON MORE THAN ONCE!!!!!!!
    I PRESSED IT A FEW TIMES AND WAS FIDDLING WITH THE FURNACE WHEN
    BOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!
    
    I FOUND MYSELF ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM!
    AFTER TWO DAYS IN THE HOSPITAL TO MAKE SURE I WASN'T BLIND FOR
    LIFE, I CALLED A SERVICE MAN AND IT TURNED OUT TO BE A FAULTY
    NOZZLE AND A CRACKED HEAT EXCHANGER!!!!
    
    I HAVE SINCE GOTTEN A NEW FURNACE BUT I NEVER EVEN LOOK AT THE
    DAMN THING.  
    
    PLEASE BE CAREFULL
    

>   DON'T PRESS THAT RESET BUTTON MORE THAN ONCE!!!!!!!
>   BOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!
    I'll echo this (lower-case).  I've never been boomed, but once I couldn't
re-set our furnace, even tho I ... gulp ... pressed that reset button three or
four times - each time the furnace roared for just a couple seconds.
    When the furnace guy got to the house, I explained what I did, and he
said "You pressed the reset HOW MANY TIMES??!!!!"  (It's the unburned fumes
that, when properly ignited ...)  After he replace my clogged jets, he asked me
to leave the basement while he tried the reset again.
    In my case, the jets were clogged, so - no fumes.  And, whaddya know,
there's a sticker near that magic button with this very warning printed on it.

      And to reiterate what the two previous notes stated, my oil burner
    service person also said DO NOT reset more than once.  His prior
    experience was that someone had a problem and must have hit reset
    a few times but denied it.  He hit the reset to start the burner
    and ended up waiting for an hour for the flames to go out in the
    fire box.  The fuel kept accumulating at the bottom of the fire box 
    }iwith each reset.
    
    -Jim

    
    
    	I am leaving the name of the company out.
    
    	A friend of mine was out with his buddy who happens to be a
    plumber. There riding down a street and happen to notice alot of
    ice on the outside of a house. What caught there eye was that the
    ice started at the goound and went up about 6 feet. They stopped
    and looked in the window then called the real estate agent that
    is handling the house. The house is vacant and the people moved
    to Florida and left the house for the real estate people to take
    care of. The lady gets there and together with the plumber they
    break a window and get into the house, none of the doors would open.
    The real estate lady did not go in, she started crying and got in
    her car and left ! 
    
    	There was a power failure and the stack switch kicked off. Every
    single pipe in the house broke including the main. The cellar was
    filled to the top and the 1st floor was filled to the bottoms of
    the windows !!
    
    	How much would you guess the damage is ?
    
    	Now I don't feel so bad.
    
    Friend:	So Steve, was it a pain to unfreeze your pipe
		that froze the other day ?
    
    Me:		Na, it wasn't bad at all, I'm sure some people
		had worse problems than me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    	-Steve-
    

    I've got a problem with my furnace, and wonder if it's now time
    for a new burner...
    
    
    Anyway, friday I came home from work, and it was freezing in the
    house.  I turned the furnace on, but should have known that something
    was wrong because it was less than  50degrees in the house.
    
    Anyway, went to the basement, pushed the reset button and the burner
    starts up.  Look in the observation door and see a sputtering flame,
     (ie: it goes on then off, then on then off about twice a second)
    
    I call the oil company, they come out and replace the nozzle, say
    it's plugged.  Start the furnace (which makes a lot of smoke because
    the fire box is somewhat filled with oil, but it stops after about
    a minute)
    
    Saturday morning, wake up, house is freezing again.  I call the
    oil company and they come out, replace the filter, blow out the
    lines, and replace the nozzle again. Say it must have been dirt
    in the line and me getting oil delivered on friday must have stirred
    up the dirt in the tank.  He leaves and the burner is going.  It
    runs all day, but never realy shuts off cause it took forever to
    get the house warm, but then again, it was 45degrees in the house,
    so it probably should have.
    
    Saturday night, I come home the house is warm, but I don't hear
    the boiler running.  I'm in the basement doing laundry and I walk
    past the furnace.  I say "What the hell, instead of going upstairs
    to check the thermostat, I'll just press the reset button and if
    the furnace SHOULD be running, it'll start up"  Well, it did.  Call
    the oil company again and they come out and make it work.  (I wasn't
    home for this effort, I had plans on Saturday night and was on my
    way out the door when I discovered that the furnace wasn't running)
    Come home saturday night (late) and the furnace isn't running, but
    when I turned the thermostat up, it comes on.
    
    Sunday morning, furnace is dead again.  I call the oil company and
    they tell me that there is some 'back pressure' in the system somewher
    which keeps the furnace from lighting properly?  
    
    Now, I just had the boiler rebuilt during the summer as the person
    who owned the house before me never cleaned the boiler and it was
    plugged up.  The result of the plugging was that the base (this
    is a dry-base boiler) got melted and warped.  When the base was
    replaceed, a thorough cleaning happened.  (after all, the boiler
    was in a million pieces so it was easy to do)  I doubt that it could
    be plugged again as it was cleaned at the end of the summer.  (actually
    I think the rebuild happened in October)
    
    
    I'm really confused.  If the furnace was plugged, I would suspect
    that the  burner would light and the melting of the base would start
    again.  But, the burner doesn't completely light, just a sputtering.
    
    The oil company checked the HV transformer and said it was OK, they
    also adjusted the electrodes, checked the fuel flow (which is good)
    and the electric-eye for detecting that there's a fire in the unit.
    
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Is it time for a new burner?
    
    
    -bill

    I have one suggestion.  I had a problem with my nearly new burner
    that may be similar to your current state of affairs.  The burner
    would come on with difficulty and sputter and maybe die.  If it
    didn't die it burned like sh*t. If the reset was pushed it would 
    repeat the process.  If this sounds like your symptoms then have 
    the guy check the shock coupling between the electric motor and 
    whatever it connects to (descriptive huh?  I am not a burner tech.
    Probably the oil impeller or some such.).  Mine was worn and slipping 
    thus causing irregular oil flow.  They only cost a few bucks (+ $40 
    for the guy to come over) and that is sure cheaper than a new burner.
    
    Stan

    re .0
    > Any ideas?
    
    In view of the 4 calls to the oil company, you might consider
    a new oil company!
    
    

    I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping you fellow noters can
    help me with (I also apologize if this note is not in the proper
    base file!)
    
    Q: Do I have a competent service person and an accurate diagnosis?
    
    I have an Oil FHW system (in a condo). Two weeks ago noticed water
    dripping from the pressure relief valve.  Diagnosis from Northboro
    Oil was to replace the purge tank and relief valve.  The next day
    pressure in the boiler is high again and water starts flowing from
    the NEW valve.  New diagnosis; A hole in the tankless water heater,
    need to replace the tankless.  Does this sound like a reasonable
    diagnosis?  I'm already into this problem for $200 from the first
    alledged problem and they're quoting me $400 or more to replace
    the tankless.
    
    Q: Should I think about bypassing the damaged tankless and installing
       an electric tank system?  Would there be any energy savings in
       electric vs. oil (in terms of not running the burner all the
       time - espc. summer - to make hot water)?  
    
    My gut feel tells me I should stick with the tankless (if that is
    indeed the problem!)  
    
    Any advice would be most appreciated.
    
    Chris

    I had a similar problem with my gas fired FHW system.  The relief
    valve was leaking.  However, I also noticed that the pressure in
    the boiler was over 30 psi.  Hmmm. It was then that the house was
    quiet enought for me to be able to determine the real problem.
    
    The pressure regulator on the supply side of the boiler was leaking.
    (With the quiet, I was able to hear the water going through it.)
    Well, off the the supply house for a new pressure regulator.  I
    put it in, with a few more shut off valves (for next time), and
    all has been well ever since.
    
    This makes sense when you consider that the water main pressure
    can be considerable.  I'm not sure if this applies to your situation,
    but it may be worth checking into.
    
    - Mark

    Thanks Mark and Ken, I'll have the pressure regulator checked again,
    although I'm fairly certain that's something the service person
    checked...
    
    Chris

>    I have an Oil FHW system (in a condo). Two weeks ago noticed water
>    dripping from the pressure relief valve.  Diagnosis from Northboro
>    Oil was to replace the purge tank and relief valve.  The next day
>    pressure in the boiler is high again and water starts flowing from
>    the NEW valve.  New diagnosis; A hole in the tankless water heater,
>    need to replace the tankless.  Does this sound like a reasonable
>    diagnosis?  I'm already into this problem for $200 from the first
>    alledged problem and they're quoting me $400 or more to replace
>    the tankless.

     I think the guy replaced things in the right order.  If he's going to 
start replacing things, don't you want  him to try replacing the cheaper
thing first?  

     I had the pinhole-leak-in-the-tankless problem once.  There is a 
diagnostic you can run on it to see if this is really the problem.  
Assuming you can hear the leak (usually you can), turn off the cold 
water going into the tankless.  If the leak stops, then you know you have 
a hole in the tankless unit.  If its a leaky pressure relief valve or 
leaky auto-fill valve, turn off the cold water going into the 
auto-fill.  See if the hissing stops.

     If it is a leaky tankless, don't dither about replacing it.  It gets 
worse with time, and you have the possibility of several inches of hot 
water in your basement floor!

>   There was a power failure and the stack switch kicked off.
 
    What is a stack switch?

    I've been told that the input regulator valve and the relief should
    be replaced as a unit when either shows a problem.  If that has
    been done, then a leak in the heat exchanger is possible/probable.
    Be aware that the pressure in the mains and the boiler can vary, with
    the result that contamination of the drinking water is likely.  
    
    I have no idea what the impact is of bypassing the heat exchanger and 
    leaving it a closed loop.

    Re: don't you want  him to try replacing the cheaper thing first? 
                               ^^^
    I their diagnosis method is to to replace parts, AND CHARGE THE
    CUSTOMER, until the problem goes away, then I would replace the
    repair person FIRST!

    Charly

    
    
    	The stack switch is a device that is able to sense the amount
    of oil fumes in the outlet pipe. If your furnace fails to start
    then fumes can build up and when it does start it could cause an
    explosion. This little device prevents that by shutting down the
    furnace. I would imagine that every heating device besides my forced
    hot air oil system has one.
    
    	-Steve-
    

re Note 38.12 by CHART::CBUSKY:

>     I their diagnosis method is to to replace parts, AND CHARGE THE
>     CUSTOMER, until the problem goes away, then I would replace the
>     repair person FIRST!

That's how they repair cars these days; doesn't it work for heating systems?
:-)

Bob

    Thanks for the continued suggestions.....I had the same concern
    about this guy's diagnostic capabilities.  He is replacing the
    "cheaper" items first, but the thing that's got me concerned is
    that this service guy does'nt seem all that confident in his
    diagnosis.  I'm learning a lot about heating systems as this problem 
    unfolds!
    
    Chris

    The stack switch senses the temperature in the flue. When the burner
    starts and the stack switch is cold, a thermostat in the flue closes
    the contacts on a little electric heater in the stack switch. This
    little heater heats a bimetallic strip. As the flue heats up, the
    thermostat opens, and shuts off the little electric heater.
    If the electric heater is not shut off before a certain time, the
    bimetallic strip pops out the reset button, several relays drop
    out, and everything stops.
    
    A good book on this whole subject is in the  holden public library
    
    Oil Burners  by Edwin m Field
    
    published by theodore Audel and company 

    I would agree with .1  Sounds like low or irregular oil pressure.
    Faulty drive coupling or pump.  BTW, motor drives a fan for draft
    and the oil pump.  It should be a simple matter for the repair person
    to check the pump pressure.
    
    I also agree with .2  Three strikes and out.  If you are in the
    Merrimack area, call Bob Rochette at Rochette Oil in Merrimack.
    Ask for Bob Rochette.  Use my name if you like.  If his people can't
    straighten it out I seriously doubt if anyone can.
    
    
    	Peter Duke
    

    My gas furnace has a hi-temp shutoff. but no gas sensor in the flue.
    The shutoff is self-resetting, once things cool down the furnace
    starts up again. The stack switch sounds like another of the
    complications of oil heat.

    I have FHW by gas, and had the same problem, NOTE, i don't have
    a tankless. I got lucky, my neighbor used to work for Comm Gas,
    and recently retired after 40 yrs. of service. He gave me some 
    valuable advice, before he quit. He took the time to come over
    and expalin things.  Well anyway, i had this relief problem,
    and the fix is simpler than you think. On one end of the 
    pump, that circulates the water thru the system, you'll find
    a flow control handle, its not labeled, and doesn't tell
    you which way to turn it, but it controls how fast or
    slow the water gets circulated. If the relief valve
    is opening, you simply need to increase the flow.
    The "check" to make sure that the flow is correct is
    to watch the temp gauge, when it hits 180 F. the burner
    should cutout.
    
    One further comment, to change the flow may only require
    turning the handle about 10 degrees.
    
    jim

    Well, the saga is over, at least I hope
    
    
    Last night, I got home and the furnace was (once again) off.  I
    hit the reset switch and had a basement full of smoke within 30
    seconds.  Yup, the boiler was plugged up.
    
    I called the oil company (again, and YES, I'm switching oil companies,
    see more on this later) and they told me that they had just cleaned
    the boiler that morning!  (and in all honesty, they must have because
    it was obvious that the top cover had been removed (which is necessary
    to clean the boiler))
    
    Anyway, I tell the guy I'm gonna take the stack off and look inside,
    he says he'll send someone right over.  I change into my grubbies,
    grab a screwdriver and start at it.  I get the stack off and look
    inside, and the damned thing is really plugged with black soot.
    
    I start to tear it apart to clean it and the oil guy shows up. 
    He starts off on me "what are you doing" , "who touched these F*ing
    air inlets".  (when I was on  the phone to the supervisor, I mentioned
    that the air inlets were completely closed.  He said to open them
    a little)  I then told the guy that the inlets were closed and HIS
    BOSS told me to open them.  He then storms out of the house telling
    me that "I don't need to take this abuse, why don't you damned people
    leave these things alone and let us professionals fix them"  (or
    something like that)
    
    Needless to say, I was pissed.  I called back the supervisor, told
    him that his technician was an asshole and then told him that I
    was going to clean the boiler.  He said that he's send his specialist
    over this morning to find the problem.  I said I'd be there.
    
    So, I tear the boiler apart, remove the top, flue housing and start
    cleaning.  It's a real mess.  I then take the burner out to clean
    out the firebox and there is this HUGE hunk of goo stuck to the
    front of the burner.  I knock that off, clean the fire box, and
    put the whole thing back together.  AFter that, I took the nozzle
    out, wiped the junk off that, and put that back in.  (this took
    about an hour and a half)
    
    Now, I'm curious.  This hunk of goo on the burner may have been
    the problem, so I turn the thing on, it lights up just fine.  I
    adjust the air inlets so the flame is burning nice and bright without
    any wasted fuel (ie: soot) and let it go.  It runs for about an
    hour, my house is warm (yea!) so I turn it off.  (after all, the
    oil people have always been able to get the thing running, but after
    the boiler cooled down it wouldn't restart)
    
    I then went upstairs, took a shower, cleaned up and watched the
    news. (I was an absolute mess, that black soot is really a fine
    mess)  After about an hour, I went back downstairs and found the
    boiler to be pretty much cooled down.  Flip the switch, starts up
    like a champ.  Fire is fine, nothing coming out of the ovservation
    door, everything is fine.
    
    Now, I call the oil compnay back.  *I* fixed the problem, and they
    were on my shit list.  I talked to the supervisor and said something
    like "If there was a huge glob of goo on the tip of the burner housing,
    could that cause the probem"  Of course his answer was "damned right
    it would"  I then told him the story and he was very apologetic
    and also I could sense that he was pissed at his technicians.  (after
    all, it only takes about 5 minutes to take the burner out  and look
    at it)  I told him that I was uncomfortable running the boiler unless
    I was in the basement looking at it cause I didn't really know how
    to adjust it.  He said he'd send someone over in the morning.
    
    This morning, his technician came and looked at the boiler.  He
    basically said that the thing was running fine and no further
    adjustments were necessary.  (in face, he said that I did a pretty
    good job adjusting the air inlets for a good fire)
    
    
    Now for my dilema.  I got 190 gallons of oil delivered on friday
    from this oil company.  I'm really thinking seriously of NOT paying
    them.  I spent a good 2 hours, plus an incredible mess to get this
    thing set up right.  They did NOTHING for me, and probably were
    the culprits of setting the thing up so it plugged up.  Whatdaya
    think?
    
    
    -bill

    Was there anything wrong with the oil? No. Pay the bill for the oil,
    and any service calls that you think were worth it and then find your
    self a new oil dealer and service company. Then write them a letter
    explaining why you switched. 

    Charly

re: .4
    >>I got 190 gallons of oil delivered on friday from this oil company.  
    >>I'm really thinking seriously of NOT paying them.              

      Do you mean you are considering NOT paying them for the oil or
    the service?  If you mean the oil, I would advise you to pay it.
    If you don't, you will be risking your credit rating.  Oil is tangible
    and you agree that you received it.  If you mean you don't want to pay 
    for the service, you should find out if they are actually planning to 
    bill you for this.  They may be too embarassed to do this.  If they do,
    write a letter to the service manager documenting everything as well
    as the fact that you feel you should not be billed for a service that 
    was NOT provided.
    
    My opinion,
    
    -Jim

    we went through the same thing.....
    
    1st oil company:  burner doesn't start...log service call...guy
    comes out...fixes...leaves....
    
    week later, same thing.  Different guy comes out.."heres the problem,
    the electronic eye is burnt out...if they replaced this in the first
    place i wouldnt be out here now"  .. replaces it. leaves.
    
    etc...etc...etc.
    
    after x amount of $$ and at least a call every two weeks, we changed
    companies....
    
    
    The new company had actually come to our door selling their company.
    They offered a service contract: $90 per year for both burner and
    hot water heater.  We signed up.
    
    We have since had multiple calls for same problems, flame burner
    bad and thus shutting the system down, clogged nozzles, clogged
    lines, etc.  Also, we still find alot of "rework" of things the
    1st guy didn't do or corrections of things he did do everytime they
    send a different person out. BUT:  this time it isn't costing $40+
    each time plus parts.  Also, they dont "blame" the customer the
    way the first company did in our case.  If we say it wasn't working
    and wouldn't reset, they believe us (or pretend to).  First company
    were always throwing out synde remarks as if were hallucinating.
    
    
    synopsis:  is there really a GOOD oil company that can locate/fix
    a problem without a minimum of 10 calls?  Have already given up
    on trying to 'shop' around for best oil price.  You can't get service
    from anyone unless you also have 'their' oil delivered to you on
    a regular basis.    Guess the oil burner blues are natures way of
    testing our endurance to torture/patience/humiliation etc.
    
    flashback:  forgot 'one' of the most humorous of our service calls...
    
    ...while we were still with the 1st company the hotwater heater
    liner burst.  Called the oil company to get a price on a new one.
    The secretary said the person who could tell us that was on vacation.
    No one else in the entire company could give us any info.  Ended
    up calling a plumber to put one in (new oilfired hotwater
    heater/install) because he guaranteed he'd be there by 10a.m., our
    oil company couldn't get there till end of day.....
    
    ...all this for $1,000!!!!!!!!

    Well, the 'service' is FREE with purchase of THEIR (overpriced)
    Oil.  That's why I'm considering not paying them for at least part
    of the oil. 
    
    For example:  Their oil is .939/Gallon.  Many non-service  oil
    companies sell their oil for .729 or so.  
    
    What I'm considering is  writing them a letter that says this:
    
    	You gave me 100 gallons of oil and your serivce sucks.  I'm
    not paying for the service, so I'll give you .729 (a price which
    I can get) for the oil.  Here's the money.
    
    
    I don't think I should have to pay for their shoddy service, even
    though I've already paid for it over the years.
    
    
    -bill
    

    Forgot to mention something about the 'service contract'.  The contract
    covers all repairs/tuneups/parts.
    
    I know I was very apprehensive of one of the 'Trained Professionals'
    (with all the repeat calls) actually blowing the thing up.  But
    the ENTIRE burner is covered and 1 heating zone motor.  If the burner
    goes, as long as I maintain the contract, it will be replaced.
    
    In our case, the contract is really saving $$ in the long run. 
    You may want to find a company that offers such in your area.
    Murphys law runs rampant in my life so I tend to be a warranty addict.
    
    good luck
    

    reply to .8:
    
    In your case your were one up on us....at least you didn't have
    to pay for the lousy service.....we were paying for the lousy service
    ontop of the higher priced oil.
    
    did you keep receipts of all the calls/repairs?  if so, you may
    have some dealing power.  Meet with the management of the place,
    throw the receipts in his/her face and request that they adjust
    the bill accordingly taking into consideration the amount of
    aggravation you've be given due to the lack of expertise on their
    part.  Is there any law against negative 'word-of mouth'...ie;
    recommending strongly against certain companies.  You hate to stoop
    to a level of bad mouthing, but if it is last resort to use it as
    a threat and they care about their rep, maybe they'll try to right
    the wrong.

    I know when I called them, but there is no receipt.  They just show
    up, fix it and go away.  (Unless you need something major like a
    new burner, they don't charge you.  (I think))  
    
    If I do get a bill for the service, I surely won't pay that!
    
    
    -bill

    To get back to your original question of whether it sounds like
    your burner is on its way out:
    
    Being basically in the same position as you with the furnace problems
    and also going through the expense already of a hotwater heater....
    
    As long as the the "professionals" are able to keep getting it going,
    there sounds like there is hope.  Whoever you get to service it
    just needs to find the cause of the repeat calls...
    
    ...its aggravating, but to invest in new one when the old one is
    still running (just needs the proper service)...eventually when
    the new one needs tune-up/repairs, its going to be the same story
    all over again.
    
    A washer or dryer at $300 isn't too bad if you manage to get 3-4
    yrs out of it, its real easy then to say its done for lets get a
    new one.....furnance is a considerably larger investment and should
    last a good length of time more....
    
    ......untill the 'professional servicemen' throw in the towel and
    the thing gurgles, rolls over with its feet up...I am not looking
    forward to the investment.
    
    Little snags in life....dont you enjoy them???  Since most of us
    are indebted to the house for 15-30 years, I really don't think
    its too much to ask that these misc. neccessaties of comfortable
    living cooperate, work effectively and hold off from annoying us
    untill the 15-30 years is up and we have some spare cash to blow.

    I'm reminded of a story about an old Vermonter, who paid a bill
    for something and enclosed a note somthing like this:
    
    	Enclosed find payment as per bill.
    	Your charges and service both
    	very unsatisfactory.
    
    		Your truly, etc.
    
    Although it may feel good, calling somebody impolite names is not 
    likely to get you very far.  After all, what would *YOUR* reaction
    be to somebody who called you up and started cursing at you?
    Personally, I think I'd pay the oil bill, but make it clear, in
    civilized language, that you are taking your business elsewhere, 
    and why, if that's what you want to do.
    Realize that the owner of the oil company is probably as aggravated
    by his incompetent serviceman as you are, but he may not be able
    to find anybody better that he can hire right now.  Some understanding
    of his position will most likely get you more in the end than
    swearing at him.
    
    I don't mean to apologize or make excuses for incompetents and 
    lousy work, and I certainly agree that you have ample cause for
    complaint.  It's just that frequently in this notesfile, the first
    knee-jerk reaction of anybody who has any kind of problem is
    "I'LL GET EVEN WITH THAT BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", and no attempt
    at all is made to resolve the problem peacefully, making allowance
    for the contractor's/serviceman's own set of problems and having
    patience to work things out.
    
    Of course, sometimes things just don't work out.....

Re: .8   Bill,

Don't think that I don't sympathise with you: I do.  To put this issue into
perspective let me say that I think that _everyone_ has had some experience 
of receiving poor service, and has been thoroughly disgruntled. It's a fact
of life.

As for your notion of paying only for part of the cost of your recent oil
delivery, let me advise you not to try that.  I haven't seen the contract
that you have with your oil supplier,  but I would be surprised if it did
not say: "This is a contract for the supply of fuel oil" or words to that
effect. I think that you will have no legal redress. Even if the contract
is worded to include service, you would probably have nothing to complain
about under law. The company continued to send engineers out to tackle the
problem: they didn't leave you for weeks on end, or wreck the house...

If you want to make a gesture, write to the manager of the company and tell
him that you are paying his bill, but you are also _contemplating_ 
cancelling the contract.  Tell him that this is because the service that his 
company has provided is so poor that you can see no point in paying a 20cent 
premium on every gallon of fuel. DON'T threaten that you will spread his name
all over town !  If you are going to get any money back it will be through 
_shaming_ him into giving you some rebate, or making some gesture to you
which he hopes will keep your trade.

If he justs takes the money and says nothing then you will have been proved
right in your judgement to ditch him - he will be showing that he is just
after a quick buck. If however, he makes some reasonable attempt to persuade
you to stay with him then you may infer that he feels that his company has a
name to protect.  

Maybe the company has just been overstretched this last few weeks with the 
weather, staff sickness etc ?  Think on before you act.

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

I am a former part-time employee of a small fuel oil company. We had
no service contracts so any servive done was performed one a parts plus
time basis. Also, the price charged for the fuel was high compared to other
companies, but that comparison was a little misleading. When you assume that
you are paying X number of cents a gallon for the service, that may not be
true. An example, there is a fuel oil dealer out of the Fitchburg area that
has a sign on the truck cab of the price of fuel oil that day. That price is
for a 150 gallon minimum delivery, cash on the spot. (I.e. the advertised
price is the dicounted price). The company I worked for advertised its regular 
price, usually .07 to .10 above this other company, but offered a .05 per 
gallon discount if payment was made in full within 10 days. 

   As far a the quality of workmanship and the level of ability of repairs, 
that unfortunately varies widely. The biggest factor is the amount of 
experince the service person has. I have seen people take 3 or more years 
before they are considered good. The "swap it till you fix it" method is used
because in some ways is the most "efficient" way of getting the backlog 
cleaned up. Now don't get me wrong, I am not excusing slopping work, I have 
been a customer as well as an employee so I know what it feels like to keep 
calling back. I am sure the repair man thinks "not that place again" everytime
you call in. If the person is incompetent, then ask that a different person be 
sent over. Then again, whatever the problem is may be something really obscure
and it could take a while to find it. It is very frustrating, for both the 
service man and the customer.

    Well, it wasn't just one person.   I can say that I met at least
    3 different ones, and I wasn't there for the complete time
    
    
    Since I now have heat (but don't really need it, it's warm out 
    these days) I've cooled down a little.  I will pay the man, but
    I will also state that I think his service is lacking and that I
    will no longer do business with them. 
    
    I'm gonna call the Oil Express tonight to sign up with them  They
    don't have service, so I know I'm not getting hosed.
    
    
    -bill

    RE .16
    
    	I've got Oil Express and they *DO* have service.  The standard
    service agreement was ~$80 for one year parts labor and tank insurance.
    I haven't had to call them, but they were prompt on cleaning and
    serving.  I just had a delivery at 85.9� per gallon, compared
    to 96-99� for the other local oil services.
    	I'll say one thing for Oil Express, they got a good way of figuring
    when you need oil.  My last company would give lots of 40-80 gallon
    drops but not OE.  I got a bit nervous when the oil level in my
    tank fell to � tank.  I called OE to ask for a drop and they told
    me I was scheduled for one next week.  Does anyone have and Oil
    Express service story?
    
    					=Ralph=

    
    
    	Don't call Kontrol Air either ! I was smelling oil in my house
    and called them up to fix the problem. When the service guy showed
    up he took one step in the door and said I needed a new furnace
    without even looking at it. I said I wanted it checked out anyways.
    He went down and looked and came back up and said it again and he
    would have a salesman call. I called up the office and said that
    it seemed to be a hasty decision on the part of the service man
    when he didn't even take anything apart. They then said they could
    come back and BOMB the furnace. This means they put a smoke bomb
    in the fire box and turn on the fan. If smoke blows out of the
    registers then the firebox is cracked and the furnace is no good.
    Well he came over and bomber the furnace and no smoke came out.
    He then said I still needed a new furnace and walked out. I then
    called Fitchburg Heating and they came over and found it to be a
    bad gasket which cost about 50 cents ! I then got the bill from
    Kontrol Air for $80.00 and wrote them a letter telling them what
    a bunch of jerks they were and were they could stick the bill. I
    then got 2 more bills after that as if they ignored my letter. I
    then called them up and told them to go pound sand and why, there
    bills stopped !
    
    	-Steve-
    

I too have gone through the process of determining what oil company and where to
go for service.  Clearly it would be nice to deal with one company for the
whole thing.  The trouble I have always had is that the full service
companies charge a stiff premium for oil - much higher than the high volume oil
only firms.  Now, add in the fact that their service charges
don't seem to be less than what you pay for strictly  service only makes
it seem that they are just plain over-priced.

Interestingly, if you try to seek out an oil burner service firm you'll
find the pickings slim.  Most sell oil and refuse to service you if you
don't buy from them.  Try looking in the yellow pages under plumbers and
not oil burners.  You'll find many more firms which do burner servicing
which don't sell oil at all - so you won't be faced with the "you want this
then you gotta buy that."  Personally I think the full service companies
rip you off if there is not a reduction in service costs.  They say that
the extra oil costs help to subsidize their service network.  If that were
true then you would expect to see a lower cost for service than from service
only companies.  At least for me that was not true.  Their hourly rate and
parts cost were clearly no lower than other service only companies.  Based on
that information I refused to pay their stiff charges.

I get oil from a local discounter in Lemonister and generally the difference
in oil costs over a winter will save me at least $125.  That is a significant
amount.

Now mind you I have a new furnance which is very reliable and I have
enough technical expertise to understand how the thing works.  I clean it every
year & replace the nozzle and fuel filter.  Nozzle cost is $4.25 and filter
cost is $3.00.  When I am done I know the furnance is clean because I do
it myself and take the time to really clean it right.
New oil furnances are acutally quite simple.  All the ignition and control 
logic for mine is in one simple and easily replaced control module.
The only things left are a blower motor, fuel pump and fuel solenoid valve.
These tend to be very very reliable and last a long time.  

If you want someone to do the work check out the yellow pages under
plumbers.  You'll find many more choices for companies that do
work on boilers and oil burners.  It pays to shop around if you are willing
to go through a bit of a hassle.

    I use Coan out of Natick (I live in Marlboro). I have a three year
    service contract with them. It cost $89 for the three years. My
    furnance is about 20-25 years old. I have since replaced the Burner
    (I did not use them for this, although the service man did the work
    for me on his time). Under the contract they have replaced the firebox,
    and have done yearly maintenance on the system. And they also cover
    the tank, if anything should happen to it.
    
    As I have not had any problems that have required an emergency call,
    I can not make any judgments on this side of the contract. I am
    required to buy my oil from them. Their current price is $.94 a
    gallon ( I have seen some discount dealers advertising oil at .72
    a gallon). Since I am on a budget plan of $ 100.00 a month, I find
    this preferable to having to pay one large payment at the time of
    delivery.
                                               
    I guess there are tradeoffs when you are dealing with your heating
    plant.
    
    Just my 2 cents.
    
    Ken

    I've had good luck with Carlisle Fuel Co. in Boylston.  Oil price
    is around $.86 right now; yearly cleaning is $35.00, and they seem
    to know what they're doing.  The one time I did need emergency
    service, Phil Carlisle (the owner) showed up about an hour after
    I called him one Sunday night, at 7:30, and it cost me all of $18.00
    including parts.
    Phil's son Tom is doing more of the work now and he tends to be a
    bit of a hot-dogger, working a bit faster than he can really keep
    up with, but he's still pretty good; he knows his stuff.

I tuned in on this note late - but thought my $.02 might help

Kontrol Air in Worcester/Leominister? no longer exists - it was bought 
by Alan Corp - one of the largest Worcester outfits.  I had Kontrol 
Air/Alan Corp install my Central A/C this summer, and have been
dealing with them through the transition.  My impression is that the
company is well-intentioned but careless.  They seem to be a very
solvent outfit, with oodles of resources (so they don't go out of
business for 3 days if their truck breaks down), and I have always
been able to get satisfaction by going (politely) to the highest
levels (don't be afraid to ask for Mr. Robbins, the owner).  You
probably can do better, but you can also do worse. 

    
    I get my oil from Cleghorn Oil out of Fitchburg, MA.  The last delivery
    was $.75 /gal (after the $.05 discount if paid in 10 days).  The
    cost is higher for me because I'm a bit far from Fitchburg.  If
    you're in the Fitchburg area, I believe it's less.  They *DO NOT*
    provide service, however they are associated with many independent
    service companies.  They gave me the name of several in my area
    which service their customers.  There are plenty of others around
    too.
    
    I fail to see the logic of paying $75 - $150 a year more for oil
    *just in case* you need service.  I'd rather deal with small, independent
    service people who value my business more than a large company may.
    
    	*SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL INDEPENDENT SERVICE TECHNICIANS*

    Phil

    I have a guage on the front of my FHW, oil-fired, furnace/tankless
    water heater.  Both Temperature and Pressure are displayed. 
    
    What Temperature and Pressure is referred to?  What are considered
    normal ranges?                                   
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    I have a FHW, gas fired, furnace.  The temperature refers to how
    hot the water in the boiler is.  In my case, it runs around 160
    degrees.  The pressure gause refers to the pressure that the water
    in the boiler is exerting.  Again, in my case, it is about 16-18
    psi.
    
    The may or may not be similar to the numbers you are seeing, but
    it will at least give you some idea.
    
    - Mark

    I have FHW - oil with a tankless. The temperature is kept at about
    190 degrees. The pressure is about 15-19.
    
    Ken

    Our "tankless", FHW oil furnace (boiler?) gauge has a hi and a low for
water temperature.  I'm not sure if it's:
    1.  furnace/boiler turns on when it reaches the low and off when high  OR
    2.  the high is for the baseboard, the low is for the domestic? or
        sinks/showers/tubs
Our oil company guy (and some small print near the gauge, I think) says that
the two temperatures should be around 20 degrees apart.  Ours is about 160 and
180, I think.

                .-1 has it right. The low temp is the one at which the
        burner will fire to heat the boiler. The higher temp is the one
        at which the burner will shut off because the boiler is hot
        enough.
                
                Sometimes these are tied into the heating portion of the
        system so that if the boiler is below the lower temp, the
        circulator won't run (thus not circulating "cold" water).
                
                /s/     Bob

    I can't believe it....
    
    I was gone for a few days, and when I got back, the oil company
    had sent me a bill for the service!
    
    
    I'm gonna call the guy and ask him if the bill is a Joke, and then
    tell him where to stuff it.   The way I see it:
    
    	I had a problem, he came and looked at it but never fixed it,
    and then I fixed it.  How the hell can he have the balls to charge
    me?
    
    
    
    Arghhhhhhhhhh!
    
    -bill

     I'll be going out to look at new electric stoves soon and was
    wondering what the difference is between the conventional burner
    coils and the "euro" style, other than looks?
    
    Chris D.

    We have a Magic Chef with the Euro style burners. We like them 
    alot.
    
    You don't have the problem of having to clean under the burners,
    since the burners are solid.
    
    The burners do not get red hot - they still get hot, but you have
    to be careful since there are only two ways to know if they are
    hot - 1) the center is painted red and when they are hot, the center
    is black, 2) by touch (not recommended, but used by accident sometimes)
    
    They retain the heat for a long time, which can be good once you
    learn how to cook with them.
    
    The entire top including the burners is very easy to keep clean
    and new looking. We have had ours for about two years now, and with
    the stuff that came with the stove for the burners and some Windex
    for the rest of the stove top, it still looks brand new.
    
    Disadvantage:
    
    Since the burners take a long time to cool down, you have to learn
    how to adjust the burners, such as when to turn down the temp. Practice
    is all that you can do.
    
    Hope that this helps.
    
    Ken

    We have had a Euro style stove for about two years. It is made by
    gibson and is a complete freestanding sove with oven. We have enjoyed
    ours because of the ease of maint. compared to conventional.
    
    One disadvantge is when cleaning the burners with the black cleaner
    a smallamount doesn't get burned off and if you get a rag or cloth
    near it while cleaning the other stove surface some of the black
    can get on the stove, but this comes off. If other users have a
    suggestion on this please advise.
    
    Shop carefully as there are different quality Euro Style stoves.
    The differences seemed to be in the burners. In top of the line
    stoves at least one burner will have its own thermostat in the center
    of the burner which helps to better regulate the burner temp. 
    Some of the stoves come with as much as a three year warranty on
    the burners others only a year. 
    
    When we shopped for ours there was not a lot of choice and they
    were rather expensive compared to the old style. You will 
    probably have a lot more to choose from.
    
    If I had to do it again I would buy the Euro style again. It is 
    easy to clean, and looks good.   
     
     rethat is furnished this substance  

Warning:  There are some things that require a red-hot electric 
burner.  One is stir frying.  We have a new Jenn-Air and are very happy 
that we bought only *one* solid element cartridge.  We just bought a 
second cartridge that has conventional coils.  We use the solid element 
(which is *wonderful* for most things) must of the time, and then plug 
in the coil element for stir fry or other things that require red hot 
heat or quick response.

So if you do stir fry or need quick response, you either need a
Jenn-Air or Roper with one of each set, or you need a coil type stove,
or you need to buy an electric wok. 

(Or you could buy gas...)

Alex

    Thanks for the responces so far.  
    re: .3  My wife and I love gas but there are no gas lines on the
    street that we will be moving to.  I saw a G.E. at Summerville Lumber
    that came with 4 coil and 4 solid.  I know my wife will like the
    fact that the solid do not cool down quickly so she can keep things
    warm for the second helpings.  Well, unless someone comes up with
    a very good reason why not to get the solid, then that's probably
    what we will end up with.
    
    thanks,
    Chris D.

    Depends on your point of view.  If you are into cooking in a serious
    way, slow cooldown is no good at all.  You want response time (one
    of THE big reasons for going with gas).  A conventional burner on
    an electric stove is quite capable of maintaining a "keep it warm"
    temperature anyway (one of the disadvantages of gas stoves).
    

    I had the pleasure of using these burners in Europe twelve years
    ago or so.  I havn't been back for a while, but they seem to have
    been mostly replaced by the radiant coil (americal style) burner!
    
    The only problem with them is response time.  With gas, you turn
    it on and it's hot, you turn it off and it's cold.  With coils,
    you have to remember to turn it on two minutes before you want it
    to be hot, and to turn it off three or four minutes before you want
    it to cool down.  Even more difficult, you have turn the burner
    down three or four minutes before the pot boils over.  
    
    With the solid plates, the rule is to turn it on five or six minutes
    before you want it hot, and to turn it off ten minutes before you want
    it to cool down. I never did get it to stop boiling over, so I can't
    give you timings there.
    
    But once the pot HAS boiled over, it IS easy to mop up the mess! I seem
    to remember a lot of experience with that one! 
    
    If you are looking for something that you can cook on, have you
    thought about bottled gas?  If you are looking for something that
    looks good AND is easy to cook on, have you thought about magnetic
    induction?  That seems like it ought to be the solution to me, because
    there IS no thermal mass to wait for.  Does anyone have experience
    with magnetic induction? 
                                                  
    	Andrew

RE: .6

Actually, what I saw in Europe that I liked a lot is a stovetop with 
two burners gas and two electric (solid).  Then you could take 
advantage of the even heat of the solid elements for, say, heating 
milk, and still do the fast response stuff, like stir fry, on the gas.

You can get that combination here with the Gagineau (sp?) brand.  Also, 
you could get the Jenn-Air gas cooktop and then a two burner solid 
element next to it.  You then get six burners for a real feast!

We though about the magnetic induction units, but all our stainless 
pots would have to be replaced (Jenn-Air says to see if a magnet sticks 
to the pan in question.  For us, nothing stuck.)

Alex

    re: .6  I've never concidered magnetic induction because I've never
    heard of it.  Where do I find this type and where do I get more
    information on what it is and how it works?
    
    Chris D.

    I have never used a magnetic induction stove but the basic principal
    is that of a very "lossy" transformer.  The heat is generated by
    losses caused by the eddy currents in the transformer core.  Well,
    since that is all I (pretend to) know, I will shut up now.
    
    Stan

    I have read that a disadvantage to the disc elements is the poor heat
    transfer to utensils that don't have flat bottoms.
    
    As for magnetic induction, you are limited to only certain kinds of
    pots and pans, which can be very expensive.  They were faddish for
    a while, but seem to have faded - I don't think Sears offers them
    anymore, though they used to.
    
    I would be hesitant about a disc element if it was slow to heat up
    or cool down.  I'd also think that it would be less efficient, as
    more energy is wasted on heating the disc.
    
    					Steve

    
While I  have  never  used  a  induction  stove, I put together and used an
    induction furnace when  I  was  doing  metallurgy  work.    The furnace
    consisted of a radio frequency power supply.  We made our own induction
    coils out of 1/4 inch  copper tube, (water ran through the coil to keep
    it cool).  The items we  heated  up  were  copper  alloys  in  graphite
    crucibles- nothing was magnetic.  The Power  supply  was  a 12 KW unit,
    operating on 3 phase 240 volts and ran  at  about  100  KHz.  ( I don't
    remember exactly) .  We used to be able  to  heat  a  3  pound  lump of
    copper in a one pound graphite crucible to 900 degrees Celsius ( bright
    orange heat) in about 6 minutes.
    
    Now,  while  what I have described would be severe overkill in  a  home
    cooking  situation,  I  would look closely at induction stoves if I did
    not  have  gas  and  had  lots  of money.  For one thing, semiconductor
    technology has  made  a  lot of progress, and so the power supply in an
    induction stove has  probably  become  more efficient and reliable, and
    perhaps less expensive.   The cooktop will be absolutely flat, and will
    not get hot in itself,  other than that the heat from the pot on top of
    it will heat it up.  I am sure that it is possible to make a stove that
    will heat up a pan made of any conductive material, as long as you have
    a high enough frequency and power.  If anyone out there makes one for a
    price you can afford (or want) to pay, I don't know.
    
    Regards
    
    gjd

    In choosing between solid disk elements and the traditional coil,
    I decided that the best solution for me was the coil with porcelain
    drip pans.  That way, the drip pans can go into the oven on the
    self-cleaning cycle, so that cleaning isn't an issue.  Furthermore,
    both types typically have chrome trim rings, which can be difficult
    to clean.  At least with the coils, the trim rings are removable
    and can be scrubbed in the sink.
    
    Personally, I think the best combination is an electric, self cleaning
    oven and a gas stove top.  After three years of cooking with
    electricity, I'm still not very good at dealing with the inertia.  I
    doubt I could ever get used to the solid elements. 
    
       Gary

Re .-2

	Jenn-Air has induction cartridges for their line of electric stoves
	and cooktops. It requires the normal stove burner control to be set
	on high and has two slide controls mounted on the front of the 
	cartridge itself for adjusting the heat. The cheapest I've seen it
	for is $480! That's for 2 burners and doesn't include the cost of
	the stove or cooktop!

Larry

Re: .13: $480 is incredible.  

Re: .12: I agree that gas is the best for a stovetop and that electric 
is the best oven.  But if you can't have gas, I believe you *should* 
consider having two burners as the European disk and two conventional 
coils.  

If you have flat pans, the disks have definite heating advantages (even 
cooking, and much harder to burn or ruin food, for example).  And the 
inertia can be an advantage when you get used to it.  The coils are for 
when you need faster response time and very hot burners (as in stir 
fry).  So if you're used to gas, the disks sound useless.  But if you 
approach the stove unbiased, you might really get to like the disks.  
If we had it to do over, we would get one set of disks and one set of 
coils for the Jenn Air (just as we did).

Alex

    Thanks for all the replies.  I printed them all out and showed them
    to the wife.  We figure that since we are going from gas, we will
    have to re-learn how to cook anyway whether it's with coil or solid
    so that's not an issue.  Having 2 coil and 2 solid does sound like
    the best of both worlds and that's probably what we'll do.
    Just to ease my wondering mind, when a coil heats up it starts turning
    red from the middle and spreads from there depending on the temp
    setting.  Does the solid also heat up the same way or is it more
    evenly spread?
    
    Chris D.

    RE: .15.  The solid element gives a good deal more even heat than the
    coil type.  In fact, the heat is so even that we found we could make
    popcorn by the pot method (put a bit of oil on the bottom and add the
    popcorn kernels to the cold oil, put on a tight cover, turn on the heat
    and wait).  With the solid burners, we don't even have to shake the
    pot.  The popcorn just pops and we remove the pot when the popping
    stops.  Nothing burns or sticks! 
    
    (We prefer popcorn done this way to hot air poppers or microwave
    popcorn.  But even if you don't, this example illustrates the even
    heating of the solid burners.)
    
    Alex

    re:.16 Thanks for the input.  Even though we've been "nuke-ing"
    popcorn for a long time now, I must confess that I always liked
    the oil/pot method better.
    
    Chris D.

	Any opinions on the flat glass style burners? Are the solid element
	better?

Thanks,

	Larry

re Note 2260.16 by ALEX::CONN:

>     In fact, the heat is so even that we found we could make
>     popcorn by the pot method (put a bit of oil on the bottom and add the
>     popcorn kernels to the cold oil, put on a tight cover, turn on the heat
>     and wait).  With the solid burners, we don't even have to shake the
>     pot.  The popcorn just pops and we remove the pot when the popping
>     stops.  Nothing burns or sticks! 
    
I've been doing popcorn that way with my coil burners for the past 15 years!

(I do use a heavy cast aluminum pan -- which spreads the heat very well.)

Bob

    Mom has a Corning glass-top stove.  She hates it.  She got it about
    12 years ago when the kitchen was remodeled.  It has proved to be
    durable, but takes some getting used to.  Also required special
    cookware, except for one burner which is somewhat different to accept
    conventional pots/pans.
    
    When we bought our first house, we didn't get one.  And we're not
    getting one in our new house, either.  We're probably going to go
    with the electric coil type.
    
    	Ted

    
    In Consumer Reports the Ceramic Cooktops were referred to as
    the Tyrannic Cooktops.  Enuf said.
    
    -tm
       

    RE: .20 and .21
    
    
    My mother still has her ceramic cooktop and on some days likes it
    and other days doesn't.   
    
    
    It does take some getting used to, and I wouldn't have one of those
    things in my house if I had kids, but she said that the best advantage
    is that they are much easier to clean than anything else.
    
    Of course, after years and years of use, the cooktop has a slight
    yellowing to it where the `burners' are.
    
    
    
    -bill

	Well, lot's of negatives. Does anyone have anything positive to say
	about these burners cooking wise?

Thanks,

	Larry

RE: .18
>	Any opinions on the flat glass style burners? Are the solid element
	better?
I know of nobody who has glass-style burners that wouldn't replace them 
in a minute if cost were not an issue.   Solid or coil are much better. 

RE: .19

> I've been doing popcorn that way with my coil burners for the past 15 years!

>(I do use a heavy cast aluminum pan -- which spreads the heat very well.)

Most pans require some attention to avoid burning.  The solid elements 
make any pan act as though it is a heavy cast type.

Re: 22: 

>    It does take some getting used to, and I wouldn't have one of those
>    things in my house if I had kids, but she said that the best advantage
>    is that they are much easier to clean than anything else.
    
>    Of course, after years and years of use, the cooktop has a slight
>    yellowing to it where the `burners' are.

That's one of the complaints.  They are not really much easier to clean than 
solid elements.  Worse they *always* look yellowed so in some sense 
they're impossible to clean. 

RE: 23

>	Well, lot's of negatives. Does anyone have anything positive to say
>	about these burners cooking wise?

None. They are slow. Hard to clean. Dangerous for kids (and even adults).  
Require very flat bottomed pots and pans.  Are potentially more fragile 
(if you accidentally drop one of those cast pans). But they still sell 'em 
so *somebody* must like 'em.   (Somebody spends $400+ for the induction 
Jenn-air cartridges also).

Alex

    Why are the glass top ones dangerous?  Is it because yoiu can't
    tell when they are on?
    
    Chris D.

    Yup.
    
    It's very difficult to tell when they are HOT.  Gas and conventional
    electric burners are easy to tell.  The ceramic cooktops are rather
    difficult and really can only be checked by `feeling' near the surface.
    
    A dangerous situation with children.
    
    
    -bill

    >>  A dangerous situation with children.

    Not to mention cats. The cats, however, do seem to learn after a 
    few trips to the ceiling.

A bit of a digression - 
Rather than trying to outguess your meal and boiling it over, just lift it from
the heat. The element (at least the coil type) will cool down in a moment and
you can set the pot back down. I always thought this was normal on electrics.
Of course, I rarely use more than 2 pots for anything...

(Trying to get used to the gas stove that came with the new apartment)

    
    	I'm considering converting from gas fired FHA central heat,
    with wood burning stove  to  Wood gasifyer (sp ?) boiler FHW, maybe
    a wood/oil combination boiler (wood/gas being illegal in Mass).
    
    	I'd like to hear from anyone who has done this, (don't bother
    with the FHA vs FHW discussion, I've decided FHW for a number of
    reasons) or who is also considering it, either for retro_fit or new
    construction.  I have some literature on the TARMA products, but
    have been told that Echlin (sp ?) is THE BEST !

    	Reg
    

    I'd certainly consider wood/coal/oil combo.
    
    I had a friend who used coal/oil and was very satisfied with it
    once he learned how to control the coal.

Could I ask for further explanation of wood/coal/oil gasification systems?
What's the difference between a simple wood fired boiler and that?

I am considering installing an oil fired fhw system and this interests me
too. 

Craig

p.s. I don't want to change the subject - the real question is pros and 
cons of these systems.

    RE: .2
    
    If I understand .0 correctly, wood gasification is the black art
    of elevating the temperature of wood to the 'smoldering' point and
    burning off the energy-laden smoke as opposed to a roaring fire.
    
    There's only one product like this that I've heard off, but the
    name escapes me at the moment. In theory and practice, it's an
    on-demand wood stove.
    
    Charlie

        re .3	Well, its more than a "black art", but yes it does provide
    a more controlled wood furnace.  As you say, the "gasification"
    refers to the separation of the wood from the gas almost on demand,
    the gas is then burned at a very high temperature producing very
    little creasote and enabling very long but clean burns in times
    of low heat demand.  I don't know if or how well this could work
    with coal, though I guess it would be essentially a mini coke plant ?
    I'm much more interested in wood anyway, less ash, less smutty dirt,
    more freebies if I spend the physical energy to go a'scroungin', etc.
    TARMA and Echlin (sp ?) are the two names I'm familiar with, will
    post whatever else I find via Thompson's or YPs.

    	Reg
    

    This seems like a reasonable place for this question...
    
    My oil burner keeps failing to ignite, and I think the problem is
    due to the electrodes.  When the burner turns on, it takes a few
    seconds before I can hear any arcing between the electrodes.
    Sometimes, it takes many, many seconds, and it times out and shuts
    down.
    
    Anyway, the ceramic insulator on one of the electrodes appears to be
    cracked, and I'm not sure if the gap between them is set correctly.
    The problems started when I had a serviceman come in to "tune up"
    the burner in the spring, but are getting worse now that the burner
    is running more frequently.
    
    Questions...
    
    	1.  Where can you buy electrodes, and other burner parts for
    	    DIY repairs, other than from a repair service? 

    	2.	Any idea on how the gap should be set?  I remember seeing
	    this in writing before, somewhere, but can't find it now.

    /Don

    
    First, I  am surprised you can hear the electrodes over the noise of the
    fan. :^)
    
    I get my  burner parts from Central plumbing in Worcester.  It helps to
    dress up like a contractor, (steel toe boots with the steel showing) and
    be cool..  Sum'ville lumber  sells burners, I don't know about parts.
    I have electrode spacing data at  home  for  a  Beckett, if you send me
    mail I will send you a copy.   Just from memory, I would say space them
    about 3/8 apart, about 3/8 above the nozzle.  The electrode ends should
    be pointed, not rounded.  Clean off the ceramic on the electrodes. 
    
    I  am assuming your problem is really electrical.   It  may  be  nozzle
    selection.  For example, on my Beckett, when I put  in a 60 Degree, solid
    cone nozzle, it burned like S*** and did *not* want to  light.   When I
    put  in  a 80 Degree, hollow cone nozzle, it lights instantly, and  the
    flame looks *much* better (stability, etc.)
    
    Needless  to  say, I have a nearly new, 60 Degree solid cone nozzle  if
    anyone wants one :*).
    
    Also,  if  you  have  been  adjusting the inlet air, the burner may not
    light if the mixture is too lean (too much air).
    
    If there  is  really  a  delay  between  burner startup and transformer
    startup, I would *guess* there is a problem with the transformer.
    
    Kind Regards,
    
    gjd
    
    

	re: .18

       Another thing to check is the CdS 'eye' and ensure that it's free
       from soot and other dirt. My burner used to exhibit similar
       behavior and after cleaning the cell, it worked fine... Seems
       there just wasn't enough light getting to the element to convince
       the system that there was a fire in the hole.

    Re -.1  You make a good point, and the cell eye should be wiped
    regularly, but a dirty cad cell would make the burner shut down even if
    it was firing. 
    
    
    To update my previous reply, from the Beckett model AFG instruction
    manual:
    
    Electrode adjustments for "F" heads
    
    
    
       
    Front view:         *<  5/32 gap  >*------
    
                                                   7/16 above
                               0    -----------
    
    
    where *  is  the  electrode  tips,  and the 0 is the hole in the nozzle
    where the oil comes out:
    
    
    
    side view:
    
                           <-- > 1/16 for heads f0 to f31
                           *
    
    
                                 /---
                                |
                                |
                                0
                                |
                                |
                                \-----
    
    where * is electrode tip and | is face of nozzle and 0 is hole.
    
    gjd

    you might try Masi's in Nashua.  they apear th have almost anything
    you would need, and if they dont they will try and get it.  I know.
    :-(

    Just to wrap this one up, I finally got a chance to replacing the
    electrodes.  One of them had a fairly bad crack in it, and after
    removing it from the clamp that holds it in place, there was an
    obvious path of carbon where it had be shorting to ground (a resistive
    short, but enough of a short to prevent arcing at the tips).
    
    I found a good local source for burner parts - Torch Supply, on
    Hamilton St. in Leominster.  They'll sell to the general public,
    but the contractors who are there buying stuff at the same time
    might give you a dirty look, or say something like "Oh, those are
    real tricky - good luck".
    
    Anyway, it fires up like new now.  Thanks for all the info.
    

Has anyone had any experience with tankless heating systems? Although the 
plumber installed it (and swears he fixed the problem; charges for service 
calls) he does not seem to know enough to fix his own problems. I thought
I would resort to the notes file before calling the manufacturer myself.

The system is about two years old and never worked from the start.
The make is not at my fingerprints but the controls are by Honeywell..

Here are my headcahes:

1) Hot water is not maintained, it barely runs for 2 minutes and then
   gets cold.
 
2) The temperature gauge shows close to 250 F, which is very close to 
   the maximum in spite of the fact that the maximum is set to 210,
   minimum to 180, and the minimal differential is set to 20.
 
3) The system also appears to be very chaotic, independent of the house 
   temperature, the heater goes on/off at about 3-5 minute intervals. The 
   thermostat appears to be OK since it correctly turns the system
   on/off.
    
   Any help will be greatly appreciated... 
Rozita.                                             
    
 

    Let me tell you what we did.
    
    We bought our house 16 years ago. It had a 4gpm (gallons per minute)
    tankless. It was IMPOSSIBLE for ONE person to take a shower and the
    water to remain hot. It was NEVER possible to have hot water
    consistently. We even had some kind of acid treatment to have our
    tankless cleaned out. Didn't work. Finally, our oil man recommended a
    holding tank. And that's the way we go now. There is a 40gallon holding
    tank that is connected to the tankless. When the water in the tank gets
    too cool the tank recyles its water through the tankless. We now have
    NO trouble with 4 showers between 6am & 7am. The water is running
    almost constantly during that hour. 
    
    I understand that most newer tankless systems are rated at 10gpm.
    If that is your capacity, this solution may not apply.
    
    
    			herb

    Thanks for the info. One reason why we bought the tankless system
    was because this is a vacation home and at times we shut the heat
    off and drain the pipes. We could not see draining the tank EVERY
    TIME!!! Any other suggestions or experiences on the other problems
    I am encountering????
    
    Rozita.

    I had a similar problem with a two year old system.  When we
    first moved in the house, we had all the hot water we wanted from
    our tankless system.  After a year it began getting colder and 
    colder untill finally I narrowed the problem down to a faulty
    mixing valve.  This divice set on the outgoing hot water supply
    of my system and takes 220 degree water, mixes with codld water
    to whatever degree you set it at (I think I have it set at 150)
    and thus doesn't depleat the 220 degree water faster than the system
    can make it up.  The unit had a knob on the top and I removed the
    top and inside was a thermostat.  I replace the thermostat ($4.00)
    and it has been great ever since.
    
    
    Good luck.
    

    The plumber told me it is a $4.00 part to be replaced but I did
    not believe him. He said he will fix it this week. I will let uou
    know the outcome..By the way, how long has it been since you have
    not had any problems? Should I expect to replace the part again
    next year? Where are the reliable systems these days!!!!
    
    Rozita.

                The part probably will be about $4, but the labor will
        probably be about 1� hours worth. As for doing each year,
        sometime you will need to. Most people don't need it that
        quickly, but it depends primarily on the condition of your
        water. The more "crud", the sooner it will need to be replaced.
        It's one of the bad things about a tankless system. I've had
        three in about 12 years and I think it's getting to be about
        time again.
                
                /s/     Bob

    If, and that's a big IF, the only part that is defective is
    the actual thermostat element, then it's a fairly simple
    DIY project.  The element on my system is screwed into the base
    and can be replaced without soldering.  You do need to locate
    the appropriate control to shut off the water supply, etc.
    
    Three years ago I had to replace the entire valve as the valve
    seat was bad. It appears to be developing a similar problem
    again.  I think these things should last 10 years, but....

    The plumber replaced the mixing valve ($15.00 for the part) and
    we seem to have hot water but he did not do anything for the other
    problems. It is beyond his intelligence!!! I contacted the oil company
    in town and they seemed to know what they were talking about. They
    think it is a short circuit..We shall see what they will come up
    with...
    
    Thanks for all the info...
    Rozita.

    Back to flat burner cooktops --
    
    Has anyone had any experience with ones made of tempered glass?
    Are they just as bad as everyone seems to think the ceramic ones
    are?
    
    The one I saw was an Amana, dark in color (should be easy to clean
    and shouldn't discolor), with warning lights that tell you when the
    burner is off but still too hot to touch (I realize that this won't
    help my cats much but it should help me!).  These features seem to 
    cover the negative repsonses to this type of cooktop that were posted
    in previous replys - with the exception of what happens if cold liquid 
    is spilled on the hot cooktop.
    
    I will be getting a cooktop in the next couple of months and I really
    like the looks of this Amana - but this cooktop will be around for
    a long time so I don't want to end up with a beautiful sight that
    I hate! 
               
                    Thanks
                    Donna

The problem with most of these things is that you're cooking on an insulator.
So they waste a lot of energy heating up, and they don't respond to changes
in temperature very fast.  People like gas because it's very responsive.
Electric is less responsive and electric with an insulator between the
coil and the pot are least responsive.  All they have going for them is
that they're pretty.  You have to decide what's the most important to you,
but since you're buying a stove for it's ability to cook, it seems that 
form should follow function on the list of priorities.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    That's just not true.
    
    Our range with solid burners will boil water at least as fast as our old 
    one with coils. You just have to use the RECOMMENDED pots and pans. We
    use stainless with 1/4 aluminum clad bottoms.
    
    Electric vs gas isn't a fair argument. I don't think anything gets up
    to heat and is as controllable as gas. But not all of us who don't have
    gas service on our street are willing to put in propane, just for the
    luxury of cooking.
    
    CdH
    

    We've had good luck with our Euro-style solid burners in combination
    with Farberware or heavy aluminum cookware.  It ain't gas, but it
    sure is easy to clean up afterwards.
    
    pbm
    

>    That's just not true.
>    
>    Our range with solid burners will boil water at least as fast as our old 
>    one with coils.

You're talking about solid burners, aka european-style?  The question I
was responding to was about glass-covered burners.  The euro-style burners
are usually cast iron and have the same characteristics as coils that are
in direct contact with the pots, so I'm not surprised at what you say.

Burners that have a ceramic or glass panel over them are adding an insulator
between the burner and the pot, and have the drawbacks mentioned. As well
as one I forgot to mention...you see because they have a slow(er) reaction
time, when a pot boils over, you have to lift it off the burner to get
it to settle while you wait for the burner to cool down.  If you scald your
hand while lifting the pot, you'll drop the pot onto the glass surface, smash
the glass, and dump the contents of the pot into the burner which was not made
to withstand getting wet.  (If this sounds suspiciously detailed, let me tell
you that I have replaced two of these panels on my mother's stove...)

Again, it's an individual choice.  
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    My apologies, there seems to have been two tangent discussions going on
    in this note, one about solid burners and one about glass cooktops. I
    lost track of which one you were referring to.
    
    One thing...I don't know if the solid burners are cast iron. I saw a
    cross section of one of them, and they appeared to be ceramic, with a
    heating coil inside. Ceramic is an insulator, so I wonder about your
    theory. Maybe my range owners manual describes the elements (I doubt
    it).
    
    CdH
    

>    One thing...I don't know if the solid burners are cast iron. I saw a
>    cross section of one of them, and they appeared to be ceramic, with a
>    heating coil inside. 

The typical range coil is made of high resistance wire covered with a ceramic
material that appears to include a goodish amount of iron.  The typical
euroburner is also a coil of high resistance wire with a similar ceramic
around it and a cast iron surface at the top to promote diffusion of the
heat.  No sweat so far.

The typical flat-top ceramic stove has a glass/ceramic plate at the cooking
level that has no iron content at all.  It looks kind of like corning ware
or the new see-through glass pans.  If you lift the top, you'll find that
there's an airspace and then a resistive coil with no ceramic and then an
insulator (whatever they're using instead of asbestos these days) and then
a metal carrier.  In short, it looks like a hotplate with a sheet of glass
over it.

You're free to draw your own conclusions about efficiency.  My observations
are based on using all three kinds of electric stove.  If I had to use an
electric stove now and didn't want coils, I think I would look into the
induction stoves.  However, since the choice was left up to me last time, 
I opted for a gas cooktop and electric ovens -- my personal vision of nirvana.
(My personal opinion is that the worst gas stove is better than the best 
electric stove, but the opposite is true for ovens.)  

					>>>==>PStJTT
  

    re: 2260.33 PSTJTT::TABER
    
    Was you mother's cooktop tempered glass?  I would think that tempered
    glass would be strong enough to withstand breakage if something
    was dropped on it.  Although I do wonder about scratching... 
    Do you know approximatley what the replacement cost was of your
    mother's broken cooktop was?

re: .36

The cooktops were made of some special glass made by Corning.  It was supposed
to be impact-resistant, and it certainly could take a harder knock than
window glass.  But if you consider a 4 quart pot full of boiling water
and heavier-than-water food items, then you're talking around 7 pounds
smacking edge-on into a sheet of glass-like material that is spanning
around 14 inches.  It would be pretty unusual not to have breakage in
a situation like that.

The cost was minor -- twenty-some-odd dollars.  The big problem was
that she lost the use of the burner for a few weeks at a time. Well,
the other big problem was installing it.  It requires special adhesives
and it's a pain in the rump to get everything removed and replaced.  When
she broke the third panel, I convinced her it was new stove time.  She
got a coil-type electric range which heats much faster, cools down
much faster (you're always tempted to put your hand on those panels
since they never look hot) and it a lot more robust.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I am in the process ,almost done, of installing a Newmac wood/oil
    forced hot air system in my home.  This system is from Canada and is
    huge, about 6' X 8' X 7'.  It is actually a wood furnace and oil
    burner feeding the same plenum.  The damper into the woodstove side
    has a blower mounted on it and will burn almost anything including
    a Sears catalog if you wish.  The system is rated at 170,000 btu and
    feeds four zones.  The only part of the installation remaining is
    putting in the two oil drums for storage.  I can't wait to fire this
    mutha up.
    
    Mark 

    
    An old friend of mine has a Newmac in his 1800 sq. ft. contemporary
    saltbox. His problem is that it's just too big a furnace for the house.
    It's hard to run the wood furnace on slow burn, and even then it puts
    out too much heat unless it's really cold out. Thus he uses the oil a
    lot of the time.
    
    CdH
    

    
    re .5
    
    I went to one of these home shows last year and I was looking at
    one of these combination wood/oil. The unit I looked at is rated
    at 180k BTU's but is about half the size of yours. It's not much
    bigger then a regular oil furnace. The brand name slips me right
    now, but when I go home tonight I'll look it up.
    
    Mike

    Does anyone know of any codes relevant to the location of an oil-burner
    master cutoff switch?  Mine is currently right in the middle of where I
    plan to put a closet door.  Although it would be relatively easy to
    simply move it over, I'd much rather move it INSIDE the closet, where I
    won't have that unsightly red switchplate in plain sight, but intuition
    suggests that code might require that it remain in plain sight. 
    Anybody know for sure?  Thanks.
    							joe

    At least in Mass., code indicates it MUST be in a VISIBLE location
    in the event of an emergency where it would need to be shut down.
    
    I don't think putting it in a closet (out of sight, out of mind)
    would go over well with the fire inspector. In the house I grew
    up in, we had those "ugly red switches". They were mounted above
    the door leading to the basement. They were visible, but not down
    low to spoil the "decor" of the room.
    

    In New Hampshire they must be clearly visible....just getting a heating
    system installed so I have been going through this myself.
    Ric

    Thanks - I kinda suspected that was the case.  I like the idea of
    putting it over the basement door & will probably go that route.
    
    						joe

In the houses I've lived in (and had inspected, in one case), the shutoffs were
mounted on the wall at the top of the basement stairs, inside the stairwell.
Plainly visible if you open the basement door (and sometimes mistaken for the 
basement light switch in the dark...), but out of sight when the basement door 
is closed.  That's the first place I would look for "the switch" in a strange
house.

    Somewhere in the deep dark past, I remember some rule about there
    having to be a door between the burner and the switch.. 
    
    Best to check with the *local* inspector.
    
    ...tom

We just built a new house in Wilton NH.  Our Furnace switch is located
at the top of stairs as suggested earlier.  Inspector did not
have a problem.

    Do these rules apply to GAS furnaces as well?
    
    	-Barry-
    

re .7: 
	Yes the code rule does apply to Gas as well as Oil fired (at least in
MA).

	As for the location.... Last I heard putting in in the stairwell was a
no-no.  Reasoning being that if there was a fire in the basement and you 
wanted to shut the furnace off, you could not do so without opening the 
door and exposing youself to the fire.

	On newer houses in MA (built in the past few years) that I have 
seen or wired, the switches have been placed near the basement door on the 
outside of the door.

	As with all electrical questions: Check with you local inspector.
He/she is the one that has to sign the thing off.

bjm

>	Yes the code rule does apply to Gas as well as Oil fired (at least in
>  MA).

I've never seen that kind of switch on a gas furnace in Mass, and I have one
in my own home that was professionally installed only a few years ago.  Mass
being Mass, I wouldn't go so far as to dispute what's code or not, but I've
never seen one in practice.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    re: .9  
    
    I'll second that.  New homes in Mass with gas furnaces have a shutoff
    switch typically mounted in a metal box on the side of the furnace
    itself.   I've never seen such a switch remotely located (or even
    colored red) in such cases.
    
    What's the real story?

    The switch legally cannot be IN the stairwell, it must be removed
    from the stairwell. The red plate is also required. Think about
    it, if there was a fire in the cellar from the furnace, would you
    want to open the cellar door to shut it off? Best to follow the
    rules with this one.

re .11:

>    The switch legally cannot be IN the stairwell, it must be removed
>    from the stairwell.

I believe this is true only if there's no door between the furnace and the
stairwell.  I've seen several houses with the switch at the top of the
stairway.  Of the ones that I know the location of the furnace, there is a door
between the furnace and the stairwell.

I have never seen such a switch for a gas furnace, either.

-Mike

    I too had a new gas furnace installed a couple years ago and the switch
    is mounted right on the side of the furnace.
    
    Edd

    Gas appliances typically have a shut-off valve outside the house, which
    is one better than simply one door away.  One hopes that the local fire
    department has the tools necessary to operate this valve.  
    
    Of course, if there's a gas explosion, the location of the switch
    probably doesn't matter very much.
    
       Gary

    Gas lines also have a special thermal safety cut out that will stop the
    flow of gas if the temperature gets too high.  I found this out when
    the one in my gas line failed prematurely.  
    
    Bob

    
    
    My oil sys has both. A switch on the burner, and one in the kitchen
    on the other side of the door at the top of the stairwell.

              <<< SERENA::DUA2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2106.18                  When Oil prices best?                     18 of 21
RAMBLR::MORONEY "How do you get this car out of seco" 7 lines  16-JAN-1990 17:33
                          -< Would you do it again? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re .17:

Do you have comments on whether a wood/oil combination is good/bad (besides
the extra work wood requires)?  I need a new boiler and a wood/oil
combination may be an option.

-Mike
    
    

    
    I have the smallest Tarma system, my house is a 9 room farmhouse circa 1854.
    
    We just purchased the house last spring, therefore, this winter has
    been the first oportunity for us to use the woodburner.  
    
    I was suprised at the amount of heat the system generates, however, 
    there are some drawbacks.  Obviously you need to mess with re-loading 
    and occasionaly re-starting the fire, depending on how long you are 
    away.  Yearly chimney and monthly furnance cleaning is also required 
    when burning wood, not so with oil.  Oil heat is on-demand, while this
    system has a continuous (albiet variable) output.  This means that the 
    system does not work well when the demand for heat is low (outside temp 
    above 40 F), the fire is forced to burn too slowely under these 
    circumstances.   
    
    Additionally, my model does not have a hot water resevoir, this means
    our hot water is easily exhausted when burning wood. In addition the 
    recovery time for the boiler water temperature when burning wood is much 
    higher than that when burning oil.  Typically making large adjustments
    in thermostat settings causes problems and a loss of hot water.  If you
    do decide to go with one of these systems, do yourself a favor, get one 
    with a hot water resevoir.
    
    In all, though, I've been pleasantly suprised at the ease of using the 
    wood burning feature.  I plan on purchasing wood this spring in case we
    have another price spike next year.  It's nice not to be at the mercy
    of the oil companies.  I also plan on adding solar panels in the near 
    future, I can't see running the furnace (except as a backup) during 
    the summer months.  
    
    /Jeff  
    
    

Thanks for the info.  Out of curiosity, does this have separate wood/oil
combustion chambers?  Is it fairly efficient regarding oil use?

-Mike

    
    re:: -10..
    
    Mike,
    
    Yes the oil and wood chambers are seperate, a damper forces the oil
    exhaust through the wood chamber during pure oil burning, thereby 
    increasing the effeciency of the oil burner. 
    
    We expect about a $1,000 heating bill for this year, this includes heat, 
    (we keep the house about 65-70 when we're home 60-62 at night), and  
    year-round hot water.
    
    /Jeff  

    I'm looking for info on power vents for oil burners.  Does anyone have
    anything good or bad to say about them?
    Does anyone know where there's a note on these?
    

    Doesn't anyone here have one of these?  
    I'm planning to hook up an oil burner and I don't have a convenient chimney.
    
    It's hard to imagine venting the smoke out the side of the house, and
    not having black soot covering the side of the house.  How do these
    work?  Is there a filter involved?  Does any visible smoke come out?
    
    Thanks
    

    We considered putting in one of these things when we converted to
    oil.  The oil company guy said those were probably ok, but had only
    been around a while and he would rather wait until more precincts were
    counted.  It's been another 3 years since then.  You could talk to him
    if you want.  It's old Mr. Lorden of Lorden Oil in Milford, NH.
    
    				- Vick

     We considered putting one of these in also, but desided to go with
    a propane power-vent because propane is MUCH cleaner burning.
     While going through the process of finding a contractor to install
    an oil burner with a power-vent, we learned that Mcduffie oil of
    Hudson N.H installed dozens of these and ended up replacing them
    and eating the expense when customers complained of soot all over
    the sides of their house.  Lorden oil of Milford N.H. told us that
    they had the same experience as Mcduffie, hence our decision to go
    with propane. 

    We have one.  It was installed in our new house a year ago...
    
    Yes, it does leave soot on the house.  We are currently working with
    the installer to resolve that issue.  
    
    That is the only problem we have had.  We decided not to go with gas
    because of oil's $$/BTU advantage.  The furnace has worked without
    any problems.
    
    Not a whole lot of help, but it was quicker and cheaper than building
    a chimney!
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

	I've got an old (1900s) boiler in the basement that used to
	be coal and was converted in the 50's to oil. (steam system,
	around 18K BTU, im told). My oil company is telling me
	I could save a tank a year (250gal tank), by replacing the
	burner. they also said it would cost me around $500.

	Has anyone done this themselves? Seems like a straightforward
	job.
	
	buy a new unit ($180-225$)
	unwire the electrics
	disconnect the oil line
	unbolt and remove the burner unit.
	bolt in the new unit
	connect the oil line
	wire the electrics
	call the oil company to inspect and adjust the installation
	for $80.

	As long as a pro inspects everything before igniting anything
	I feel unintimidated about the whole thing. (Im used to renovation
	and DIY). Any suggestions for choosing a burner, any horror stories
	about the whole job?

	Thanks,
	Pete

	You may have your work cut out for you. When I upgraded my system. I
opted to DIY the electric. I found out after going through the inspections
several times that several things had to be changed. (size of wire, type of
protection, etc...) I also found out a change in the oil piping was needed.
New codes require that they be placed in a pipe sleeve.

	I would say that DIY is possible for the easy parts, but, discuss
with teh inspector what you need to do before you start. It took me three
weeks in November to get mine going.

		Bill  

    Couldn't find a better place to put this...
    
    I'm planning on putting up a stockade fence to enclose the entire back
    yard and go up the property to about halfway down the side of my house.
    i.e......(here come the graphics....)
    
           *--------*--------*--------*--------*--------*
           |                                            |
           |                                            |           
           |                                            |      
           /                                            /
           /                                            /
           |           _______________________          |
           |          |                       |         |
           |         =| <-oil filler pipe     |         |
           |          |   through foundation  |         |
           |          |   wall, 4' above      |         |
           *----------|   ground level.       |---------*
                      |                       |
                      |_______________________|
                             house front
    
     As I noted in the picture the oil filler pipe is about 10 feet in from
     the fence on the inside of the back yard.  I plan on putting a gate up
     on both sides for easy lawn care access, BUT I have a 17month old and
     plan on having these gates locked with key access from the outside for 
     security.
    
     So what I need to know is do I have to settle for the fence on that
     side to only go as far as the corner of the house and leave the oil
     filler pipe in clear access?  OR...
    
            Can I extend outside along the foundation at an upward pitch
     (land slopes down toward the rear) with 10feet of similar filler pipe
     and have the filling outlet poke through the right front of the fence
     against the foundation?     If not can I extend the pipe inside and
     put in a new hole through the inside of the foundation? (which I would
     definately not want to do, but just a thought...)
    
     Steve...............................................................

I once built a stockade fence just like you've drawn (to keep my small
child from venturing into the street).  I just made the oil people
open the gate to give me deliveries.  If the gate was locked, they
had to get someone in the house to open it (fortunately someone was
there most of the time), although I didn't lock the gate too often,
as the latch was too high for my kid to undo it until he was old enough
that we could trust him to stay away from the street.  And besides,
our side door was on that side of the house, so it wouldn't have been 
too easy for someone to sneak through during the day.

Anyway, as a first step I'd recommend calling your oil company to find
out if they're willing to give you advance warning of oil deliveries
(so that you can unlock the gate for them) or whatever else it takes to 
keep the fill pipe where it is behind the gate.  If that will work out, 
it would be easier.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Could you give the oil company a key to the gate?  

    Giving your oil company the key to the gate would be the cheapest way,
    I fenced off my back and side yards, and gave Mass. Electric the key
    to my gate (I used to just leave it unlocked, but it got to be a hassle
    when I'd forget). When I do the front yard, the oil company will get
    a key to that gate.
    
    Fred

    When I replaced our small deck with a much larger deck, I was faced
    with a similar situation: the filler & vent pipes were now located
    underneath the new, oversized deck. Since I was planning to close in
    the sides with lattice, I asked my oil company if they would like to
    extend the pipes (approx 6 feet) to provide easy, quick access for
    fill-ups. They said they could do it, but would have to charge me for
    it. Since I was considering it only to make their job easier, I told
    them they could do it only if they would pay for it. They declined,
    so now they must drag out another 20 ft of hose to reach the access
    doors and must stoop under the 4 ft-high deck to make a delivery.
    
    Talk to your oil company and explain the situation, emphasizing how
    much easier their job will be if they don't have to wait for someone
    to let them in, or if they don't have to be bothered with bringing the
    key. Since you seem to be concerned about backyard security, you may be 
    willing to foot some or all of the bill, but it doesn't hurt to ask them.
    
    Good luck!

    As I thought about my own question a few replies back I realized that
    the oil company (Chair City Oil, Gardner) along with their regular
    service, fills the tank each time.  At least thats what the secretary
    there said they did, and this way they know how much to adjust their
    delivery dates according to how much you actually use so they are not
    going out on a delivery for only 50 or so gallons at a time.
    
    The idea of a lenghthy extension would not be a good idea in such a
    case as there would be 10 or 15 feet of filler pipe filled with oil
    for a few days, and this I would imagine would be an unsafe condition.
    
    Giving a key to the oil co. would seem the best idea if they too go for
    it.  I just will have to put a lock that automatically latches when
    closed so they don't have to worry (forget) to lock it when done.
    As I understand it there are only 2 guys who deliver and run this oil
    co. so it wouldn't seem hard for them to do this.  (They must have
    similar situations.)
    
    I'll give them a call for their ideas and actual options.
    
    Thanks,   Steve........................................................  

I have recently spoke to my oil heat dealer about what  I could do to 
reduce the about of oil I use per month.  He suggested That I install a power 
damper which he has in stock for $230.  He claims that it will reduce fuel 
usage by 15% and in cases of old furnaces (coal converted) will save up to 30%.

The way it is supposed to work is that when the furnace is on it is open and 
allowed the hot gas to flow up the chimney.  When the furnace is off it 
closes the flue allowing the heat to stay in the furnace.

my furnace is in my garage.  My Fuel usage is about 400 gal per month during 
January/ February.


Has any one had one of these devices installed?  do they really save fuel.  
Are there any problems with this kind of device?

This note reopened because the author very nicely pointed out that I didn't 
know what I was talking about: the note I pointed him to has nothing to do with
the question he asked.  I (foolishly, I know :-) assumed that power vents and 
power dampers are the same thing, when power vents are in fact vents to let 
your oil smoke go out the wall without a chimney, and a power damper is a 
device to close the chimney flue when the furnace is off.  Well what do I know?
I have a solar house.

Have at it.

Paul

    
    
    This probably isn't the answer you're looking for since it is not
    related to power dampers, but since you're looking for a way to
    save fuel consumption, I'll tell you what we did.
    
    We used to use 400+ gallons per month during the winter months and
    we've reduced this by >85% using a wood furnace.  A wood stove
    connects to the existing furnace and heats the water that goes through
    the pipes.  Only when demand is greater than the stove can produce does
    the furnace kick on.  It burns a lot of wood (we feed it 3X daily)
    but since we're clearing a lot for building, we have it anyway.
    
    We get automatic fuel delivery on a monthly basis and I've watched
    it fall.  Last month - 52 gallons!  It's a lot of work cutting and
    hauling wood, but the savings is worth it for us.
    
    Chris
                                                       

    The vent dampers with which I am familiar were intended to prevent
    heated indoor air from being sucked up the chimney by a residual
    draft after the furnace shut down (but before it cooled off enough
    to stop the draft effect).   Perhaps if you have forced hot water
    heat a damper might help to retain some heat in the boiler.  BUT,
    if your furnace is in your garage, I can't see where either case
    would save you anything.  Does your oil dealer know your furance
    is in your garage?

    r .3  The oil dealer knows it is in the garage where the temp is about
    40.   He claims that the cold air is being pulled in through the intake
    vents of the furnace, passing through it, and up the chimeny.  This
    process, he claims,  will cause the furnace to kick on for short
    periods of time to maintain the minimum temperature.
    
    I don't know if I'm being taken for a ride or if this is a real cost
    saver.   I was hoping another person had some first hand experience
    with such a device.
    
    The system is a FHW system with three zones.  The Oil furnace is rated
    at 150,000 BTU's. 

    Well, I'd expect some sort of heat savings from the installation
    in as much as you aren't cooling the boiler down as much during the
    off cycles.  As to the maintaining minimum temperature, this will
    depend on the particular system ... whether the primary control is
    the room thermostat or the aquastat.
    
    If the primary control is the room thermostat, then boiler will only
    fire when the house thermostat calls for heat ... so you won't get
    the cycling you describe anyway.  If the primary control is the aqua-
    stat, then you will definitely tend to see short cycling, because with
    an aquastat as primary control, the procedure is to keep the water at
    a given temperature, and use the house thermostat(s) to control the
    distribution pump and valves.  So all you are doing is keeping the
    boiler hot.
    
    I'd expect, given that the boiler isn't in the house, that you'd
    only gain maybe 10% at the most.  If the boiler were inside the
    heated envelope of the house then you'd likely gain a lot more.
    
    Stuart

    I used one of these vent dampers for 4 or 5 years until it
    malfunctioned and the manufacturer wasn't interested in selling
    me parts to fix it. I installed it myself for about $90. I removed
    it about a year ago and have not replaced it.
    
    These things do work and they do save 10-15% on your heating bill,
    but only under some conditions. They save the most on wasted heat
    during mild weher and during the summer (if you heat your hot water
    with your furnace). During the winter, your furnace is running a
    good part of the time and the damper is open to let the fumes out
    the chimney. In this mode it's just as if the damper wasn't there.
    During the mild weather, your furnace doesn't work much so the damper
    is closed most of the time, hence it keeps heat from escaping through
    the chimney, keeps your boiler hotter and reduces the number of
    times the burner comes on to maintain boiler temperature.
    
    So it will save you some money on fuel, but it will not save very
    much during the coldest months of the year. Something else to be
    aware of is that eventhough there is a delay of about 90 seconds
    before the dammper closes after the burner goes off, they do cause
    a small amount of smoke in the area of the furnace. Probably not
    a problem in your case with your furnace in the garage but should
    be considered for others when the furnace is near or in the living
    space.
    
    Ray

     I have used these devices in 2 homes.They work well. My Becket burner
    also has an air shutoff built into the air intake (centrifugal shutter)
    The power damper works like this:
          The burner contoller relay closes outputting the 110V side of the
    line (this used to fire the burner directly without the new pwr damper)
          With the power damper this 110V now goes to the power damper, and
     runs the motor that opens up the exhaust flue damper. when the damper
    gets to the fully open position an arm off of the shaft hits a switch
    that applies 110V to the burner firing the burner (so it has to be open
    for the burner to fire) Then after the burner shuts off it times out
    for about 2 minutes to allow any exhaust gases remaining in the boiler
    to go up the stack, then it closes. 
      I got mine at an oil burner repair/supply house in Worcester called
    McNally supply for about $125.00.  These became popular during the 1st
    oil shortage in the 70's. I had one installed back then for about
    $50.00. When I went to McNally supply last year for one in my new home
    I was very suprised at the price. the guy that owns the place said he
    threw away 6 of them that had been on the shelf for 4 or 5 years the
    year before after a clearance / flea market he had. They were priced
    at $10.00 each! I wish I had been there!
      Anyways I'm real happy with mine. I have reduced my oil consumption
    in my home from 1700 gallons of oil per year (previous owner) to under
    900 gallons last year, I think I will be under 500 Gallons this year,
    but its' been real mild.
                                                 Mr Bill

                <<< PEAR::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SOAPBOX.NOTE;2 >>>
                                  -< Soapbox >-
================================================================================
Note 675.0                   Starting the oil heater                     1 reply
ESIS::GOKHMAN "Boris the Bear"                       38 lines  18-JAN-1991 12:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Boxers, I need help.
    
    Yesterday night I ran out of heating oil, and the burber stopped. The
    guy delivered oil this morning, but the burner won't start up,
    obviously. I asked him if he can start it, and he said he ain't
    licenced (damned union rules or what?). I asked him to tell me how to
    do it, and he said - open the screw leading to the bottle, let it fill,
    close the screw, hit the start-up button.
    
    I did, and it didn't.
    
    I have a forced air heating system. Am not sure if there is water in
    it, but there is no trace of valves and measuring glass, so probably
    not. The heater is ancient, probably even coal, but refurbished for
    oil. There is a steel bottle connected to the tank by about 1/2 inch
    pipe. There is a screw on it, which I can turn back and forth (am not
    sure which opens it and which closes). Bottle is about 1 quart volume.
    From the bottle there is a metal pipe 1/4 inch thick, leading to a
    thingie, perhaps a motor or a pump. (when I hit the restart swith it
    start making working noise). There is what looks like a natural gas
    line, leading to that "pump" as well. When I close the screw on it the
    "pump" doesn't start even when the swith is hit.
    
    Now I tried different combinations:
    
    Open the screw near the bottle, close it, hit the switch.
    Open the screw, hit the switch.
    Same with thermostat closed, then turn on the thermostat.
    
    
    Every time, the "pump" make working noise for a minute or two, then
    stops.
    
    
    If anyone knows what to do, please let me know. If it is dangerous to
    fool around and I should call a technician, let me know too.
    
    BtheB

    Please send me mail, I rarely visit this notesfile.

 
Can any tips be posted here also?

I'm sure the information would help others.

daryll_who's_had_it_happen_to_him_once

There is air in the line and because of this, fuel is not being delivered.
Without fuel you don't get ignition and the safety circuit turns off the burner.
The fix is to bleed the line.  This is easy to do - I have done it (and a
delivery man has done it for me):

The small (1/4"?) pipe from the tank filter goes to the pump on the burner. On
the pump there is a bleed valve, which is just a little nipple with hex flats.
Open this valve and hold a jar or can up to it.  Start (reset) the burner and
let it run until the fuel runs strong into the can.  At first there will be air
(foam reallly), but that is what you are getting rid of.  Close the valve and
you should get ignition.  If the safety circuit times-out before the fuel runs
clear or before you get ignition, try again.

Note that these pumps are pretty high pressure (100 psi, more or less), so be
careful about using the can.

About the valves:  the valve right at the burner is a fire-safety valve which
will turn off the fuel supply in a fire.  This is the kind that turning the
knob/handle causes a threaded stem to be raised and lowered.   The tricky thing
is that they work BACKWARDS: clockwise opens (raises the stem), and 
counter-clockwise closes (lowers the stem)!  There may (should) be one of these
at the tank, also.

Good luck (although I guess that it's really too late to be of any help).
Bob

    One thing to add about bleeding the oil line is to find yourself
    a short section of clear or rubber tubing.  Connect the tubing to the
    nipple of the bleed valve and place the other end in the can or jar.
    Then when the oil starts coming out it won't shoot all over the place
    and you can keep it all in the can or jar.
    
    Also, if you get the oil on yourself, it will really stink up your
    hands and it's very hard to get rid of.  You might want to put on some
    cheap plastic gloves before doing this since you most assuredly will
    get oil on you.
    
    -al

    RE.0
    
          Be smart about this, get a oil burner technician out to restart.
    Often, your getting oil but not getting ignition. In other words oil
    is getting to the nozzel but the elctrodes have to be recalabrated to
    create a spark. What makes this so dangerouse and why you shoud get a
    pro. is that as this oil is making it to the nozzel it is being dumped 
    into the combustion chamber. There it sits in a big pool just waiting
    for the propper air mixture and spark and "BANG". an explosion is a 
    very stron pos.
    
     Matthew......

    RE: Big pool of oil
    
    Number 2 fuel oil (aka diesel) is not explosive like gasoline is.
    In fact if you had a pool of oil and threw a match in it, the match
    would be extinguished.  The pool of oil will start to burn slowly
    when the combustion chamber gets fired up.  No "BANG" though.
    
    -al

There is a chance of a small explosion if the oil is in a mist when it gets
ignited.  Such as if you have a flaky ignition transformer that doesn't work
for a minute and then it starts, so the mist ignites.  But once it settles down
into a pool, it will only burn, not explode.

BTW, many common substances, such as flour, will explode if ignited as a dust
or mist suspended in air.

-Mike

     I'm not sure where to put this, not even sure if this is the right file
to put this in, but here goes.

     I had some service done on my oil furnace a couple of months ago.  It
was no big deal, and the bill came out to $35.75.  Well, when writing out
the check a week later, I accidentally wrote the check for $35.25 instead of
$35.75.  I made a .50 error in my favor.  Still no big deal right?!  This
past weekend, I got my statement and canceled checks from the bank.  When 
balancing out my checkbook, I saw that I had written the check with the .25,
but the statement showed .75.  I looked at the check and sure enough someone
had changed the .25 to .75 to correct my mistake.  Now, I don't care about
fifty cents too much, and if they notified my, I would have taken care of
it right away, but changing my check really upsets me.

     1.  Is this legal?  I doubt it.
     2.  Should I forget about it?
     3.  Should I call them?  If I do, how should I handle it?  This company
         has been REAL good to me in the past.  I would hate for anything to
         have trouble with them.

     Chris D.

I wouldn't worry about it.  You made a mistake, I'm sure they figured it was 
just an accident, and they saw a way to quickly and easily correct your mistake.
It's not like they defrauded you out of anything, they only changed it to the 
correct amount.  And like you said, it was only fifty cents.

Their action wasn't actually legal, but it seems at least semi-reasonable.  Yes,
it would have been nice to notify you, but I don't think it's worth making a 
fuss over.

Paul

    Hi Chris,  
    
    	I agree that it's not a big deal but if it were me I'd feel better
    giving them a call and asking them to give me a call before changing
    things.  If for nothing else then to keep the  accounts straight.  It
    doesn't have to be a complaint, just a clarification.
    
    George

I would be very polite, but I'd ask them to inform me if there is a problem
with the check. I would then gladly write them another check (and even hand
deliver if possible, since it was my mistake).

First and foremost, I don't want people playing with my bank account, even if
it is only 50 cents. Where do you draw the line? 

    What you wrote in words vs. numbers is what is the offical amount
    on any check. Did they both jive, ie. were both "twenty-five" and
    .25 cents ?
    
    Just another view ! Lloyd
    

    Re: .39
    
    Nobody I know writes out the cents part of the amount with
    words.
    
    			Steve
    
    P.S.  Is this really the right place for this discussion?

    This is what I read at one point.  Your mileage may vary.
    
    When a bank is cashing a check, the actual, legal amount is the
    handwritten part.  In other words, if the numbers are written as
    $239.99 and the handwritten part is "two hundred thirty nine and
    95/100" then the check will be cashed for 239.95
    
    John

    Apart from being mildly upset that the cheque had been doctored by
    the payee, I'd be livid with his and my bank for accepting it ...
    although then again, the banks' charges for returning the cheque
    would probably be phenomenal compared to the fifty cents.  So, I'd
    rather that that they paid it than charge me an arm and a leg to
    tell me I slipped up!
    
    Stuart who also writes the cents out in words and crosses out the
              /100 preprinted at the end of the amount line!

re: 38.43

>    Apart from being mildly upset that the cheque had been doctored by
>    the payee, I'd be livid with his and my bank for accepting it ...
      
      I  agree  with  this  completely!  I'd surely have a talk with the
      bank.  Start by calling the president's office.
      
>    although then again, the banks' charges for returning the cheque
>    would probably be phenomenal compared to the fifty cents.  So, I'd
>    rather that that they paid it than charge me an arm and a leg to
>    tell me I slipped up!

      I  don't  think  the  bank  would  charge you -- and the certainly
      shouldn't!  -- because somebody else submitted an  altered  check.
      But  I  WOULD expect that the other party's bank would charge them
      when the check came back.

    I heard a radio talk show last night called Talknet. This guy called in
    to say that 100 checks had been stolen from his checkbook. He didn't
    realize this right away but once he discovered the missing checks, he
    notified the bank and signed an affadavit of fraud -- which was
    supposed to protect his account from clearing fraudulent checks. When 
    he received his statement showing $4,000 worth of cleared checks he 
    never wrote. He informed the bank and requested his account be credited
    and they refused. Of course, all he has to do is go to the state
    banking commissioner and they'd take care of that little problem post
    haste. 
    
    The thing that amazed me was not that the endorsement was never
    checked to see if it matched the account holders', but that all of the
    checks were signed with a name other than the account holders'!! These
    banks can surely do some stupid things...
    
    Mike

    The banks don't check at all.  It's cheaper for them to wait for
    a complaint from the customer than to verify that the amounts and
    signature are valid.
    
    It is almost never your bank which encodes the paid amount in the
    MICR digits on the bottom of the check - it is either the bank
    into which the check was first deposited, or for some larger
    businesses, a separate check processing firm.  Once that MICR
    code is there, the bank never looks at the check again.
    
    I've had it happen where the encoding was for the wrong amount -
    both the numerical and written-out amounts agreed, but the encoding
    was $20 more.  I notified my bank which instantly credited my account
    and then went to recover the difference from the depositor's bank.
    
    			Steve

Hit the nail on the flat end to make the pinted end go into the wood.
(That's to make this have at least SOMETHING to do with home_work.

Different states have different laws about what parts of a check are
significant.  In Massachusetts, the numerical representation is
considered "official" (it used to be the written part, but people have
gotten so lax about their handwriting...)  In other states it's the
written out part.  

To the best of my knowlege, all states picked one or the other as
"official" because merchants were tired of being victimized by people
who would fill out two different amounts to make the check fail
processing. (A common scam if you need a little extra time for the
money to get into your account.)

I would expect that the new federal uniform banking laws (the ones that
keep you from endorsing more than an inch of a check...) probably
picked a uniform official amount as well.


>>>==>PStJTT

Yo, moderators!  Where are you?

    See reply .36.
    
    	Steve

    I asked my oil company to send me their brochure for a service policy. 
    I would like to share the details with you to find out if this is a
    good policy/price.
    
    "
    This 25-point annual tune-up is provided as part of your policy
    
    1. Check and clean thermostat	
    2. clean gun assembly or distibutor
    3. Vacuum clean unit, smoke pipe, and chimeny base if necessary
    4. Clean burner fan and housing.	
    5. Clean oil filter.
    6. Replace filter cartridge.	
    7. Clean pump strainer or dual valve strainer.
    8. Clean electrodes and replace if necessary.
    9. Check pum pressure and vacuum with guage.
    10. Check firing rate and make necessary adjustments.
    11. Clean, test and calibrate all controls.
    12. Clean bi-metal element of stack control, or cad cel element
    13. Lubricate all motors.
    14. Drain expansion tank, if necessary.
    15. Make necessary burner and draft adjustments.
    16. Flush low-water cut-off.
    17. Install new guage glass if necessary.
    18. Tighten all pulleys.
    19. Replace belt if necessary.
    20. Replace air filters when needed.
    21. Investigate for air leaks.
    22. Seal all leaks found.
    23. Check all fittings for oil leaks.
    24. Final check of ignition system, and firing rate. Take CO2 and smoke
        test.
    25. Wipe equipment and vacuum area.
    
    
    Parts coverd by ComfortCare Guarantee
    The company guarantees to repair or re;lace any of these parts when
    necessary for the operation of the oil burner with no additional
    charges..
    
    1. Burner Motor-Standard	2. Transformer	 3. Fan	  4. Electrodes
    5. Nozzles	 6. Fuel Pump	7. Burner Couplings   8. Firebox
    9. Aquastats   10. Fan Motors    11. Fan Belts   12. Oil Lines-Inside
    Above the floor.    13. Oil Valves    14. Tank Guages    15. Vent alarm
    16. Oil Filters    17. Fil & Vent Lines-inside    18. Oil Storage Tank
    19. Stack or Cad Cell Control    20. Flame Sensor    21. Air Filters-at
    time of tuneup   22. Snap Switches    23. Thermostats (excpet clock
    type)    24. Fusible Valves    25. Fusible Wires    26. Thermal Fuses
    27. Electrical Relays or Fuses    28. Oil Fittings-inside
    (Parts no longer manufactured are excluded)
    
    
    Comprehensive Home-Heating Service Policy
    The company agrees to render service as described herin and said policy
    is limited to domestic oil burners operating at a maxcimum of three (3)
    gallons per hour oil rate.
    
    ANNUAL BURNER TUNE-UP: This work will be scheduled by appointment, and
    a 25-point inspection and tune-up will be made at no charge.  The work
    to be performed is detailed in this agreement and is done for the
    purpose of assuring maximum operating efficiency.
    
    EMERGENCY SERVICE: All emergency service calls (if required) are
    included at no additional charge.  All other service required for items
    not covered by this agreement will be charged at prevailing labor
    rates.
    
    REPLACEMENTS PARTS: A complete list of replacement parts and controls
    covered by this agreement is shown in this agreement.  Necessary repair
    or replacement of these defective parts and controls will be made at no
    charge.  Any part or control to be replaced will be at the sole
    deiscretion of the Company.
    
    TERMS: It is understood that this Comprehensive Home-Heating Service
    Policy is intended to make service available to fuel oil customers of
    the Company economically on a year-round basis.  Coverage may be
    cancelled by either party on a thirty (30) days written notice. 
    BECUASE THE POLICY IS MADE AVAILABLE ONLY TO HEATING OIL CUSTOMERS OF
    THE COMPANY, THE CANCELLATION OF OIL DELIVERIES AUTOMATICALLY CANCELS
    THIS AGREEMENT.  Under these circumstances, no pro-rated refund is
    available.
    "
    
    Well, there it is.  The cost of this little beauty is $60/year for two
    years.  The company is THE OIL EXPRESS.  Any comments?
    
    JAM

Given my past experiences with oil burners and service, I think that
$60/year is reasonable.  I seem to recall paying about that some six or
seven years ago.  Of course, now I have gas and don't need any of that stuff!

				Steve

    I have a 4 year service contract on my oil system at no charge. 
    Another place offered me a 2 year service contract at no charge.  Both
    places said that this service is generally about $60/year.

You'll need to compare the price of the oil as well; there's no such thing
as a free lunch, and your "free" service contract will undoubtedly be paid
by higher per-gallon oil charges.

				Steve

    The contents of the agreement are preetty standard ... although ours
    specifically exclude air filters in FHA systems and electronic
    thermostats and failure of furnace parts due to failure of an
    electronic thermostat.

    Sounds about average, although my experience with a relatively
    old 1968-vintage boiler is that the things seldom break anyway.
    I've always paid for a yearly burner cleaning/tuneup ($35.00
    until this year) and for repail as needed, which has been twice
    in nine years; neither time was the bill very high.  If you
    buy insurance, you're betting that your oil burner will break
    and the other guy is betting that it won't.  Since the odds are
    always in favor of the house, guess who loses in the long run
    on that deal.  Some things in life are potentially so catastropic 
    you just need insurance, but given the basically bulletproof nature 
    of heating systems and the fact that you can install a whole new one 
    for about $3K, I see no need to "insure" my oil burner.  Your mileage
    may vary.
    

    When I compare the price of oil with full service vs the discount it
    was about 9-10 cent different.  With a discount oil service company
    you had to buy 150 or more per delivery and pay within 10 days.  We
    had our house for 8 years (12 years old when we bought it).  I only
    had to replace the oil burner motor.  I was paying $40-45 per cleaning.
    I would full the tank up in August and get the 150 gallons in the
    winter months.  There was not alot independent oil burner service
    company.  Compare for yourself.  We are are now living in South
    Carolina and have a heat pump.
    
    Ben
    

I was very glad one Christmas Eve at 11 p.m. that I had a service contract
on my furnace.  The service man mentioned that only "contract" customers got
emergency service at such times - otherwise I would have had to wait until
the day after Christmas.  So you're not just buying insurance, you're also
buying response time.

	-JJ

I just moved into a house which has an oil burner (forced hot air) furnace.
The previous owner said he had the tank filled with KEROSENE. (1000gal)
This was 2 winters ago. Here in North Carolina the winters are mild,
(I still have � a winter left in the tank) 

The previous owner said:
1) (back then?) it didn't cost much more then #2 and
   it has a higher heat content.  

2) there is less chance of clogging the oil pump  

3) It burns cleaner.

4) I could put #2 in the tank when I refill it, no problem.

5) The burner will accept either fuel. 
   There are versions that take only kero.

Ive never heard this before, did he know what he was talking
about?  Yes I dipped the tank and its a clear fluid and smells
like kerosene.  Any comments.  Does kero burn hotter then #2 and
by how much. does It really burn cleaner then #2?  
Is it is just a safe? for example when there is trouble with the igniter.
    
    tg

Note #1184 has the heat per unit of various fuels, and while kerosene has
more heat/gal than fuel oil, the difference is small (139,000 BTU/gal. for
kerosene vs. 137,400 for oil)

-Mike

    I believe that your numbers are wrong for #2 oil. My DOE sheet shows 
    #2 at 140,000 BTU/gal.
    
    Kerosene is #1 oil,and has less energy per gallon.
    
    Also,the density of the two is different,and I would think that the
    burner/nozzle would be different between the two fuels.
    
    Marc H.

re .2:

I didn't write the note I referred to so I cannot verify its accuracy.
It appears kerosene and #2 fuel oil are very close in heating value, so
one shouldn't buy one over the other for more heat content.

-Mike

I used to work for a fuel oil dealer. For customers whose oil tank was in 
an area where the temperature never got below freezeing, we always delivered
#2 oil. The kerosen was delivered to customers with outside exposed tanks,
usually house trailers and slab houses. The difference is that the #2 oil
starts to sludge up at a little under 15 degrees F, where the kero will
still flow at a colder temperature. There were some customers who for the 
first and last deliveries of the season would take #2 and they would take
kero for any deliveries late december through the end of feb. As far as
mixing, there is no problem with that either. We had some customers 
specifically ask for a mix, all in the name of cold temperature performance
while controling the cost to some degree. At times, the kerosen would cost
$.20 or more per gallon than the #2. 

_bill

    I'd like to do a "simple" tuneup of my oil burner.  I have a FHA
    system.  I understand that I should change the air filter, oil filter,
    and burner nozzle once a year.
    
    I replaced the air filter the other day.  Pretty straight forward.
    
    The oil filter which is near the oil tank, has a shut off valve both
    before and after the filter housing.  What is the proper procedure
    for changing this filter?
    
    The nozzle is obviously at the burner.  I am not sure how to access
    the nozzle for replacement, and I would like to find out the
    replacement procedure for this also.
    
    Thanks, Mark

	Standard Disclaimer--- I'm not an oil burner technician, but here's how
	I service _my_ burner...

�    The oil filter which is near the oil tank, has a shut off valve both
�    before and after the filter housing. 
 
	You certainly want to shut off the valve between the tank and the
	filter.  I don't have one after the filter but if I did, I would
	shut that one off too.  It probably will stop whatever oil is in
	the line from shooting back out after you remove the filter housing.

�What is the proper procedure for changing this filter?

	*****Cut off all electricity to the furnace.*******
 
	Remove the filter bowl (most have a nut on the top that releases the
	bowl beneath) from the top.  Inside, you'll see what looks like a 
	spool of twine.  That's the filter...remove and replace with a new one.
	Re-install the bowl.

�    The nozzle is obviously at the burner.  I am not sure how to access
�    the nozzle for replacement, and I would like to find out the
�    replacement procedure for this also.

	My burner has a hinged top that, when swung, removes the transformer
	assembly and exposes the inside of the gun.  Yours may differ but
	once you've gained access to the inside of the gun, disconnect the 
	oil line..this is a threaded fixture on the side of the gun.  One 
	mounting screw holds the nozzle assembly.  Loosen and remove the NA.  
	This a simple body consisting of 2 copper spring contacts, electrodes
	and nozzle.  Unscrew the nozzle (try not to disturb the electrode 
	settings) and note the numbers printed on it...it will usually say
	something like "80� .5".  This means the nozzle sprays the oil in an
	inclusive angle of 80� and will burn � a gallon of oil per hour.
	Take the old nozzle and old filter to your heating supply store and get
	exact replacements.  (If you have your furnace manual, you can probably
	get the part specifications from it and have the parts already in
	hand.)

	After replacing the nozzle, clean the electrodes and the sensing eye
	(this is the device mounted behind the nozzle assembly which senses
	whether the oil has ignited.  If the oil has not ignited after a 
	certain amount of time, it will shut down the oil pump) with a clean 
	dry cloth.  Replace the nozzle assembly, reconnect the oil line, re-
	assemble the filter, and open all shut-offs.

	Now you must bleed the oil line of any air that may have gotten into
	it.  Locate the bleed valve...this is usually on the burner housing,
	somewhere near where the oil line is connected to the burner.  Open
	the bleed valve a couple of turns and put a bucket under it.
	Turn power on to the furnace.  When the moter starts up, oil will
	gush out of the bleed valve, but no ignition will take place in the
	furnace (cuz it's not getting any oil  8^).  Any air in the line will
	sputter out of the bleed valve.  When oil is running freely (usually
	after no more than 10-15 seconds), close the bleed valve.  When oil
	is restored to the gun, you should get ignition.  Make sure you
	tighten the bleed valve down before you forget.

	Run the furnace through a cycle or two and make sure everything looks
	good.  You're done.

	I do my furnace every year but every 4-5 years, it's a good idea
	to get in a furnace professional to do a thorough check of your system
	...intake shutters, gas mixtures and stack gases.  He has instruments
	to measure your exhaust gases and determine that your furnace is
	running efficiently.

	It's actually easier to do than it is to describe it.....good luck.

	--Mike

    Mike,
    
    Thanks for the excellent step by step response, I am going to print it
    out and save it.  As everything is currently working ok, I am going to
    wait until spring to do this.  Thanks, Mark.
    

    Be careful what you replace the nozzle with. If it's running good use
    the exact same one (including brand). Choosing nozzles is an art not a
    science. Also something the tech can't do that you can is this.
    Anything that disturbs the system can cause a spec a dirt to clog the
    nozzle. Namely changing the filter can cause the nozzle to clog.
    Ideally if you change the filter then change the nozzle about a week
    later and take your chances with the old nozzle rather than the new.
    
    Yes, Yes I know, there is some DIYer out there that has never had this
    problem. Well I just had a professional do mine (for the same reason as
    .-2 said [check gases etc.]) and sure enough when it was 10 below and I
    was 120 miles away the nozzle clogged and the EVERYTHING froze.
    Amazingly I had no damage. This is what I bought the electric heater
    for as backup I asked about in another note :-).
    
    One other thing which I have not heard mentioned yet, which is probably
    the most in important. Is Cleaning the heat exchanger. I don't know how
    a Oil FHA system is set up though to comment. On Oil FHW there are a
    couple panels to remove and run a brush through. The Stack also has to
    be cleaned. This part should be done yearly if it's a full time heat
    source in New England.
    

	    I hate paying someone to do something that I can do myself
	and the list of things keeps growing.  Unfortunately, I don't
	plan on adding furnace tune-ups to that list.  The investment
	in the equipment you need to measure the efficiency/performance
	of your tune-up is not justifiable.  Without this equipment,
	you can't know if your furnace is running as well as it could/
	should.
	    What's it, about $50 to get a service guy out to take care
	of it?  A poorly tuned furnace can burn a lot more than that
	in a season.  The only question is whether the service guy is
	doing a good job?!?

					Tim

Lemme tell ya...  I believe in DIY for most things.

You all have valid points.  Personally I like .1's methodology.  Do it
yourself each year, and then every few years have a pro come in for
the precise adjustments.  Providing the system is running smoothly and
not making any loud noises on startups, everything is probably set the
way it should be.  

Funny thing is that I had to bleed the line lastnite.  Yesterday morning
we ran out of oil.  Called the oil place for a delivery and they said there
would be a $20 charge to have the guy bleed and start the system.  As it
turns out the guy couldn't get the burner to startup.  Electric was not
kicking on.  I was on the phone with my wife trying to diagnose the possible
problems while the guy was there.  The fuse was good, all switches were on,
the thermostat was set to 90 degrees, nothing was happening.  We suspected
a bad thermostat (only possible thing, but I doubted it).  Got home ran a
continuity test on the output wires from the thermostat, I had continuity
across the two points with the thermostat set up, no continuity with the
thermostat set down.  So that was working.  And yes we had all pressed the
reset switch many times.  After 1/2 hour of testing electrical wires, I
moved the thermostat up and the unit started up.  I think that the reset has
some kind of 5 minute delay.  I plan to read up on my owners manual over
the weekend about it.  I bleed the oil line (this took a total of 20 seconds)
and everything was back to normal.  No the oil man never charged us the $20.

Regards, Mark

There's another missing step: the fuel pump has an internal filter/strainer that
has to be cleaned (not replaced).  Even though there is a filter on the tank, it
is not real fine and quite a bit of sludge gets by and is caught by the pump
filter.

The pump is mounted on the side of the burner opposite the motor.  It is
probably a "mini", which has 4 bolts holding its end plate (old ones have 8).
Remove these, take out the filter (cup shaped screen) and clean it with a
toothbrush, in a can of fuel oil (or kerosene,etc).  Removing the plate may
damage the gasket, in which case it would need to be replaced.

If the tank-filter gasket is rubber, it will have swollen from exposure to the
fuel (a sealing feature) and will NOT be re-usable.  A fiber gasket can be
reused, but I always replace them.

Note on the ignition electrodes:  the gap setting is VERY important (I had a
burner that wouldn't start once, because the setting was off about 1/32").  The
setting involves the distances above and away from the nozzle, as well as the
gap.  My point is don't screw around with it unless you know what you're doing.

Bob

    You should know about the electrodes if your going to change the
    nozzle. Because there is a very good chance you will knock them
    out of wack when you remove the nozzle and you should check them
    (gaps etc.) everytime to put the gun back in.
    
    RE: Not DIY, The measurements are precise but the adjustments are
    fairly coarse. All the tech. does is check if the measurements are
    in range. They don't tune it for peak performance. If everything
    else is working correctly it should not need adjustment. I use
    this theory on my cars also and it works great. Even on my AUDI they
    now rivet the distrubitor in place so that people do not change the timing
    to compensate for a real problem that should be fixed.
    
    Your burner is tuned for the chimney size, length and draft etc.
    Which does not change.
    

    
    P.S. Nozzles do wear and should be changed at maintenace time (you
    should not skip that part).
    

    
    Are you sure that the screen needs to be cleaned. When I did have a
    tech do mine. He did not touch it. I would think that the screen is a
    "safty" for large matter to prevent from killing the pump.
    

When I have cleaned mine, they have alweays been full of gunk.  I assume that
the pump will continue to work without cleaning it, but that there is a much
larger load on it - having to draw through that resistance.

When I have had mine professionally cleaned, they always do the pump screen.

Re professional cleaning: it often is not as good as I do, particularly with
respect to the heat-exchanger cleaning.  They haven't made the same effort at
what is a very dirty job.

Bob

    
    Re Professional cleaning.
    
    DIY oil burner service is not something I do myself but seeing the
    lousy job most of the so called "professionals" do, I'm inclined
    to start doing it myself.
    
    For years, I always had the burner serviced annually and never 
    questioned the work (or lack of it) that was performed. Then last
    year a "technician" came to the house and did some maintenance on
    the burner that floored me. He changed the filter at the oil tank,
    and took off the top of the burner to clean the soot out of the
    heat exchanger rea and the exhaust pipe (which was really heavily
    sooted).
    
    For the previous 5 years the serviceman had never changed the
    filter at the oil tank, and certainly never took apart the the
    top of the burner to clean the exhaust/heat exchanger tubes. 
    Cleaning the exhaust was really messy so I could see why they
    wouldn't do it if they can avoid it. Previously the servicemen
    has never taken that screen out of the burner and cleaned it.
    
    About the only thing they did was clean the electrodes and change 
    the nozzle.
    
    Now I'm the wiser and right on top of these guys. Bottom line is
    if you aren't gonna DIY, then keep an eye on these so called
    "technicians". From my experience, they'll do as little as possible.

re: .11

Speaking of oil burner cleanings...

In as much as I am not inclined to clean my burner and, until this note was
written had no idea how to do it, I used to have the oil company do it once
a year.  I noticed that every year (new house, new system - mind you) it took
at least one cleaning in the fall then at least one service call in the dead 
of winter.  Being a math wizard, I figured that at about $50 for the cleaning 
and then $50 (minimum) for the service call I should get their service policy 
for $99 and I would be ahead.

Funny thing, now the burner only needs the fall cleaning.  I have six years of 
data, 3 without the service policy and 3 with it.  I does make one think.

Stan

	    I got a 'free' service contract because I'm a new customer.
	From what I gather, the oil that compliments my 'free' contract
	runs 10� (or so) more a gallon than other companies charge.  At
	the rate I burn oil, I'll never buy close to 500 gallons a year.
	    I do know they vacuumed the plenum (FHA) when they serviced
	my system.  I didn't really watch the guy work, though.  A lot
	of people get annoyed (me included) when people watch over their
	shoulder while they work.
	    Next time, I think I'll keep needing to get something in the
	cellar while the tech. is doing his thing... not that I'll be
	keeping an eye on him.  ;^)

					Tim

    Here is a DIY question?    FHA Oil System...
    
    As I stated before I ran out of oil last week, and I had to prime the
    fuel line to get the system started.  I am really not sure if the
    system is acting any different, but, it appears that there is a bit of
    BOOM whenever the system starts up.  I'm not really sure if this is
    normal or not.  If it is not normal, what could be causing it?
    
    Is it possible that I did not get ALL the air out of the line?  Is it
    possible that the nozzle has worn down and is causing this?
    
    Thanks for any suggestions.  Mark 

    The last time I had the oil guy out to do my annual service, he
    had something called Soot Sticks.  He said you basically throw one
    of these sticks into the burner chamber and as it burns, a chemical
    adheres to soot and then it eventually burns away in about 20 minutes.
    The sticks look similar in size to small flares, although they were
    white, not maroon.  He said the results are much much better than
    the manual brush it out, vacuum it up approach since the chemical
    reaches areas that you can't brush out.  Unforturnately he said
    that these Soot Sticks were only available to licensed oil technicians.
    
    -al

    Re: .14
    
    If you are getting "boom" sounds, fix the problem ASAP! The most
    likely cause is that the electrodes require adjustment. But, if
    you didn't bleed the oil pump, a similar problem can result because
    the oil won't have enough pressure to develop a spray when it 
    exits the nozzle. It will puddle in the bottom of the combustion
    chamber and cause the condition you describe. You should bleed
    your oil line first before pulling the electrodes out unless you
    had the problem prior to running out of oil.
    
    I do my own maintenance and at one time I didn't bother to check
    the electrodes. The result was a minor explosion in the boiler
    that blew the stack pipe off. Anyone attempting to do their own
    maintenance, should understand what it is they are doing. I 
    recommend a book published by Beckett, the burner people. When
    I bought mine some years ago, it was $3. Don't know if its still
    available but of the several books on this topic that I own, 
    Beckett's is the best.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Joe
                                                     

    Well I did bleed the line.  At first a lot of foamy oil was coming
    out and then it seemed to be straight free flowing oil.  Perhaps I
    need to bleed it again, possibly still some air in there?  I never
    touched the nozzle or electrodes.  The nozzle was last replaced by
    a pro around 3 seasons ago.  Perhaps the nozzle has worn?  
    
    Anyone know a good place to buy nozzles in the Milford MA area?
    
    Thanks, Mark

    
    That book sounds great where did you get it?
    
    I would replace the nozzle also. When ever you run out of oil the system
    tend to get contaminated. It also sounds like it's well due also.
    

    Last nite I bleed the line again.  There was a small amount of air
    bubbles coming out for about 2 seconds.  Now when the unit starts up,
    you can't even hear the flame starting up.  Amazing what a very small
    amount of air can do.  I agree it is time for a new nozzle, perhaps
    this weekend I'll replace that.  
    
    Thanks for all the advice.  Mark

    
    Great now you wanna help me.
    
    I've had a strange problem for a while I'd like some advice on. Once in
    a while usually when burner has not run for a long time (due to wood
    stove running out of fuel) and it's very cold out. The burner starts up
    in an oscilating mode. Very loud quick thud thud thud. It even blows
    sout out the seems of the stack pipe. Some times it trips the saftey
    and sometimes it smooths out. It happened several years ago. And I had
    several techs check it out. But it never did it while they where there
    of course. Finally I replaced electrodes and nozzle myself and it just
    seemed to go away. This season I had a tech clean it and check gases
    etc. This winter the burner tripped (while not their) and the house
    froze. So I replaced the nozzle and adjusted the electrodes (which
    seemed to be off quite a bit). It hasn't tripped, but I swore I heard
    it thud thud thud again.
    

     I had a clogged nozzle which had caused oil to dribble out and 
collect inthe boiler.  When I gave up and had a serviceman come out, after 
he replaced the nozzle and checked everything out, he turned the system on 
_with the door open_  [this is a converted coal furnace].

     I'd never seen this before and flames did come shooting out the door 
and set of the smoke alarm in the basement, but I'll bet it avoided the 
possibility of blowing out the vent stack.  It was pretty spectacular.

     There is a possibility that because a serviceman did this, he knew 
what he was doing and it was relatively safe, considering the alternative 
scenarios. 

�                      <<< Note 4517.20 by NICCTR::MILLS >>>

	My furnace does this occasionally too.  And it's always under the
	same conditions, like the one's you describe (furnace not run for a 
	long time, very cold outside).  Here's what I think is happening--

	After prolonged inactivity, the chimney is getting very cold.  When
	the furnace ignites, there's a large volume of heated air trying to
	push a large volume of very cold air (in the chimney) out of the way.
	In the time it takes for the hot air to do this, volatile gases are
	accumulating in the stack and combustion chamber.  I believe these 
	gases are re-igniting and causing the 'thump-thump' sound.  Once the
	chimney warms up (or at least allows the heated gases to escape), the
	re-igniting and thus the noises, stop.

	This is my theory on what's going on.  I don't think there is much
	that can be done to prevent it, save running the furnace more regularly
	even if other heat sorces (like woodstoves) are being used.

	--Mike

    
    I liked your reasoning. But, why would it go away for 3 years and
    come back again?
    

�    I liked your reasoning. But, why would it go away for 3 years and
�    come back again?
 
	Could be a variety of reasons and combinations of conditions... burner
	efficiency, weather, barometric pressure.  Maybe after 3 years the 
	furnace is getting 'de-tuned' and creating more volatile gases to 
	ignite.  Tuning the burner would produce fewer gases, allowing the 
	chimney more time to establish a draft before the 'backfires' occur.

	Please remember..this is all conjecture on my part.  If it seems like
	serious damage is occurring, I'd have a professional check it out.
	I'm sure they must have seen the conditions you describe.  They should
	be able to give you a definitive answer.

	--Mike

    
    I still like your reasoning. It's much better than what I got from
    the pros and from the manufacturer for that matter "I don't know".
    I was hoping you could justify why it went and came and maybe you
    did. Thanks.
    

First, many thanks for all the advice in here (I've been read-only
for about 3 months).  We've just become first-time home owners and
there are some great topics/discussions/advise in here!  I hope
to be able to contribute once I become a more experienced DYI'er :-)

We have a 4 year old tankless FHW by oil system.  We are debating whether or
not to get a service contract (about $65/year).  Not knowing anything about
heating systems (and knowing how cold it gets in New England) I'm inclined
to get the service contract...

My questions.  Aside from the yearly cleaning, do these service contracts 
cover what can really go wrong with systems (particularly tankless FHW)?
Are tankless FHW considered fairly reliable?

Thanks for any thoughts,
Dan

    If your boiler/burner are in relatively good shape (and at 4 years
    old they ought to be), I wouldn't bother with a service contract 
    and just plan to pay time + materials if/when something goes wrong.  
    The odds are that nothing will go wrong.  After all, those guys make 
    money on the contracts so on average you will lose money by getting one.
    In general, heating systems don't break.
    
    It really depends on what makes you feel warm and fuzzy.  If you'll
    feel better getting one, go ahead.  I've never had one, and in 16 (?)
    years of home ownership I think I've needed emergency service 3 times.
    This has been for relatively old (20+years) systems, too.  In all
    three cases, the problem has been relatively minor and the time +
    materials cost was less than what the service contract would have
    been.  Service in all 3 cases was prompt and reliable; I wouldn't
    have gotten service any faster with a contract than I got without
    one.  

    The oil company I ended up going with offered a free 4 year service
    contract.  Another company offered a free 1 year service contract. 
    Yeah, it probably wasn't really free if I took the time to really shop
    around and find the best price for a gallon of oil, but I felt I did OK
    just the same.  I had to have something replaced on New Year's Day this
    past winter, so I was glad I had the service contract.  My tankless FHW
    system is between 2 and 8 years old as near as I could figure (probably
    closer to 2).

    It depends on what the service contract covers.  If it covers the yearly
    maintenance AND emergency maintenance, then it sounds like a great deal. 
    I pay somewhere around $60 just for the yearly cleaning/checkup.
    
    They may offer the service contract at a BETTER rate than an ala-cart
    cleaning just to be sure that you go to THEM for the work.
    
    I have a 14 year old tankless FHW/oil burner, which has had a couple of
    failures.  The transformer went, and the controller mechanism went.  So
    my experience is that these things are not foolproof.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    Clarification to .59: I *do* get the yearly burner/boiler cleaning and
    checkup; I just don't get the extra-cost "if anything breaks we'll fix 
    your system" deal.

    
    I am looking for input on Riello M3 burners vs. Beckett AFG series
    burners. My oil company sells both. From looking through other notes
    from years past, there was some concern with parts availability with 
    Riello (being Italian made). My current burner is a Carlin which is
    very noisy. My boiler is a Weil-McLean. The cost of the Riello is $495
    installed, the Beckett AFG is $350. The service manager says the Riello
    is very quiet and will probably run 1%-2% more efficient than the
    Beckett. Any personal experience with either burner would be
    appreciated.
    
    /Charlie
    
    P.S. I have a basement family room so noise is a definite concern.
    
    /Charlie
    

    I've never listened to a Carlin or Riello M3 burner so I have no 
    true basis for comparison.  However, I recently walked through a 
    house which had a Beckett AFG burner (only running @ 0.85 GPH)
    and didn't find the noise too objectionable.  Especially considering
    the basement was an unfinished echo chamber.  I've heard much
    louder.  
    
    I'm curious myself, does the burner itself determine
    the noise level?  Is the boiler design more of a factor?  Is it 
    the installation (ie- how much trouble the contractor took to
    isolate the boilers noise from the house)?  Why are oil fired 
    boilers so much louder than, say, gas fired ones?
    
    Hmmmmmmm....
        Jim D.

    
    Jim,
    
        After talking to my oil service manager a few times, he answered 
     several questions for me about my Carlin burner/ Weil McLean boiler
     Combo. The original H.B. Smith boilers that were installed throughout
     my subdivision (circa 1976) had a faulty O-ring design. It is
    estimated that 90% of them have been replaced (and the other 10% are
    ticking time bombs :^). I've only lived there about a year, but I know
    my boiler was replaced in 1989 (I use the same oil company as the
    previous owner, Terry Oil of Hopkinton MA.) However, the owner in 1989
    wanted to save $600  and reused the original burner / valves etc.
    The original Carlin burner was made for a much deeper firebox. I've
    been told by neighbors and Terry Oil that the H.B. Smiths were twice
    the size of the Weil McLean, therefore the fire from the Carlin hits
    the back of the fire box with a lot of force and bounces off. This in
    itself sounds like a jet engine, and I'm told that the Carlin motors
    are a bit noisier than others.
    
         I've decided to go with the Riello burner for replacement. I've
    been guaranteed satisfaction. It seems to have a couple features that
    make it more attractive to me. First of all, it is the quietest and
    most efficient burner my installer has ever seen, (it also has an
    insulated sound deadening box built around it) It has a high pressure
    pump/nozzle which supposedly atomizes oil into a very fine adjustable spray.
    I guess the Beckett AFG  doesn't operate at such a high of a pressure.
    I was told that Beckett recently came out with a unit (AF2)that is almost
    a duplicate of the Reillo, but being a new model, my oil guy doesn't
    want to experiment with their first version of this model. Either do I.
    
    I don't have any experience with gas burners/boilers but I have a few
    theories. I think the noisiest component of the oil burner is the pump
    motor used to pressurize/pump the oil. Being that gas is already
    pressurized in the line, I would think that a pump is not needed. Just
    a guess.
    
    
    /Charlie 

    There is no pump or blower on a gas burner.  The gas just comes out
    of the orifices, ignites, and heats the boiler.  The oil burner
    has (as mentioned) the motor for the oil pump and the air blower,
    so you get the noise of:
    	1. the motor
    	2. the pump
    	3. the blower
    	4. the pressurized flame itself
    

    
    My new Riello burner was installed this morning. I was pleasantly
    surprised to hear how quiet it is. With the insulated cover in place,
    the ONLY noise I hear is flame. My efficiency measures 87% (up from 86%),
    however I expect overall efficiency is higher due to some of the units
    features (ie. Air inlet shut off gate which reduces draft through 
    system (and minimizes heat loss up flue). Time will tell, but I like
    what I see (and don't hear) today.
    
    /Charlie

We're starting some renovations, and we are eliminating a small center chimney
that currently only vents the oil burner.  We're thinking about power venting 
as well.

Any new info on the soot problem on the side of the house with these?

What is the actual approximate $$/btu comparison between gas and oil?

alf
    

    FWIW. I never burned straight kero in the furnance,but every month I
    add a five gallon can of #1 kero to the tank ( 250 gal) I wait about a
    week after deleivery. It's like adding STP injector cleaner to your
    car. I've never have problems with clogged nozels.

   When I lived in Mass. I bought my heating fuel from the bargain guys,
whoever had the best deal when I needed fuel.  What this meant is that I had
to closely watch the tank's fuel gauge.  If I didn't schedule a delivery, no
one else did it for me.  Typically we had to buy at least 150 gallons to get 
them to come out.

   There were a couple times, when I was not watching close enough and we ran
out of fuel.  First symptom, the house is cold or there is no hot water. Always
on Saturday night it seemed... What to do, what to do...

   Gee it seemed that automotive diesel fuel burned just as well as the #2 fuel
oil, and I could get it 5 gallons at a time until the delivery guy showed up,
usually on Monday or Tuesday... those 5 or 10 gallons cost a little more/gallon
than the #2 oil, but not nearly as much more as spending $.10 - $.20/gallon
more from an outfit that would come automatically.

   Now, I'm not recommending that anyone else do this, but it worked for me...

   It seems that the "oil" burners aren't too particular about what oil they
burn...

Al

re .6:

>   It seems that the "oil" burners aren't too particular about what oil they
>burn...

Actually #2 fuel oil and diesel are the same thing, except the diesel is a
little cleaner (refined better) and has highway tax added on.

-Mike

    
    
    Well, I wouldnt go as far as to say they are the same, but
    I do use #2 in my equipment.  Its a lot cheeper and easer
    to take it out of the tank at home....and delivery is free!
    
    As for as the Kero goes.  Used in outside fuel tanks, it wont
    jell up like #2 will if you get a real cold snap.  Its burns
    much hotter also.  I'll mix some in when fueling the tractor
    just for that reason.
    
    JD

    Kero is #1 and diesel is #2.
    
    Marc H.

    re: .8

>   Well, I wouldnt go as far as to say they are the same, . . .

    Actually they are the same.  A friend of mine has a heating oil
    business in NJ and told me that they are one in the same except for the
    taxes.  In fact, he could have filled his trucks fuel tanks from the
    "tanker" if he were willing to figure out and pay the taxes on the
    heating oil used as diesel fuel.  He decided it wasn't worth the
    trouble.

    -Bob
                                                                

      My  understanding  is that the diesel fuel sold for auto/truck use
      has various additives not found in #2 fuel oil.  But I agree  that
      they are identical otherwise.

    
    This summer we shut off my FHW oil burner so we could snug a radiator
    up closer to the wall.  After turning it back on, we found that the
    system has air in it and makes a pounding sound when things are heating
    up.  If anyone has ever bled air from a system, can you tell me if
    there is a mystique to it?  like start with the one furthest away from
    the furnace, etc????
    
    thanks.
    carol

I have FHW with cast iron radiators, and I only find air in the topmost
radiator.

    
    hmm that may be the case after all.  so does that mean we only have to
    do something to the burner furthest out (this being a ranch
    configuration) ?
    
    
    c

I'm talking about *vertical* distance from the boiler.  Unless you have
cast iron radiators and one is higher than the others (like my bathroom
radiator), your radiators are probably pretty much on the same level.

    
    Well I still have a question on air in the FHW system.  see .14. If
    anyone can advise - that would be great.
    
    carol

    I just bleed each radiator until water comes out.  No particular
    sequence - I just do one floor at a time.  If you have baseboard 
    heat instead of radiators, there may not be bleed valves on the
    baseboard but there should be one somewhere....

    What you can try is to find the "drain valve" on your boiler in the 
    cellar and open it up until all the air is out.  Water should flow out
    eventually.  You may want to do this when the circulator pump is
    running.  That should purge the "air".
    
    -TB

    
    A few suggestions:
    
    In modern FHW installations an automatic bleed valve is usually
    installed at the highest point on the system.  If the system
    is on one level a length of pipe is sometimes run up the inside
    of a closet to create a high spot for air to collect.  Check around
    and see if you have one of these (I don't know how old your system is,
    but with cast iron rads it sounds like you won't have one).  It may be
    blocked.  Could be a good thing to get installed.
    
    Depending on the system, there is usually a bleed valve at the top of
    each rad. (hardware stores sell the keys).
    
    Just bleed each rad in turn, starting at the highest point with the
    system *off* after it has been left off for a few hours.   Then run the
    system.  Chances are that you will have to repeat the proces 2-3 times
    over several days because the air mixes with the water and it takes a
    few days for it to all separate out.  Also, depending on the design
    of the rad, a small amount of air may always be present in the top of
    the rads.  As the system runs this will be displaced and can create
    another airlock.
    
    If it gets no better after 2-3 days, you have a different problem.
    One possibility is a very small leak somewhere in the system that is
    sucking in air (as water is lost).  Another possibility is that the
    system was intended to lose a small amount of water over time, which
    would normally be topped up automatically from a line from the water
    main.  This line in may be furred up or got closed off inadvertantly.
    
    Also check the notes on boiler or furnace noises.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
     

    
    	Whether this is right or wrong, I don't know, but it works in my
    house.  All radiators and baseboards are on one floor.
    
    	I start with the first baseboard from the furnace, then follow
    in a circle around the house.  Bleed each radiator/base board until
    water comes out.  Only go around once and done. 
    
    	Regards, Linda
    

    We just moved into our house in Pepperell, Mass. this past Friday.  It
    was *bitterly* cold (e.g. 10 or 20 below zero, at least) on that Saturday 
    night and our outside (not underground) oil tank and supply lines froze up.  
    Happy new home ownership!
    
    The explanation given to me by my oil supply company is that the oil
    actually separates into parafin (or a wax-like substance), water and
    miscellaneous at such low temperatures.  This, coupled with the fact
    that the feed lines themselves were very cold, caused the furnace to
    quit.  They advised me to switch to kerosene which doesn't gum up as
    quickly at a low temp, and which is *considerably more expensive* to 
    purchase, of course....  ;-)  
    
    Does anyone know if there is some kind of additive for home heating oil that
    would prevent this kind of separation?   
    
    Thanks,
    Priscilla

There are various "weights" of heating oil, and the lighter weights are
supposed to be used in cold weather.  If your tank was still full of 
"summer weight" oil, this could happen.  Adding kerosene would help; you
don't need to burn straight kerosene.

I might suggest calling another oil company and getting their opinion (and
price).

				Steve

    There might be some kind of tank heater you could install.
    Big industrial boilers that burn #6 oil have to heat the
    stuff before they can burn it, although I think they run
    a steam pipe from the boiler out through the oil tank for
    preheating, and that's a bit beyond what you need to do,
    I expect.  Perhaps you could wrap the incoming supply line
    with heat tape?  
    Simplest thing is to switch to kerosense or #1 oil (maybe that
    *is* kerosene, I'm not sure....)
    
    I think I would also strongly consider removing the underground
    tank and the first opportunity and replacing it with a standard
    275-gallon tank in the basement.  Aside from solving your 
    freezeup problems, it would also remove the possibility of an 
    *extremely* expensive environmental cleanup situation.

    RE: .2
    
    The tank *is* above-ground.  We had the previous owner pull the
    underground tank up and replace it with one thats above the ground.
    
    The house sits on a lot of ledge so it doesn't have a basement to put
    the tank in.  The utility room isn't large enough with respect to codes
    for clearance so the previous owner had to have the tank installed
    outdoors.
    
    Heat tape, single line, is a good idea.
    
    Priscilla
    

    How about a "tee" fitting inside the house on the oil feed line to the 
    furnace.  You could install a small perhaps 20 gallon tank, with a
    manual valve feeding the burner with clean warm oil.  This is sort of
    spare tire approach, and is questionable in terms of local building codes
    but may be the only practical solution.  An air bleed switch, and
    installing the "little tank" above the burner nozzle would be required.
    
    Out of curiosity I would sample the oil and see exactly how much water
    there is.  There should be none.  You can do this by taking a wooden
    stick longer than the tank is deep, and stopping by a local gasoline
    station and buying about .50 cents worth of water sensing "salve".
    If the salve turns blue or purple (depends on brand), when you "stick"
    the tank, you know there is a large amount of water present. Unless
    your tanks is compromised (has a hole in it) I would simply
    demand the oil service drain your tank and refund your money, while
    you consider suing them for damages while finding another oil service.
    
    Ron

    
    since you can't put the tank into a basement, you might want to 
    consider a shed structure to shelter it.  
    
    Gary

    RE .2
    
    #1 fuel oil is unfiltered kerosene.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Dont feel bad.  That one of the major drawbacks about an outside
    tank.  I have several friends who own mobil homes and have the same
    problem.  What they do is figure on DEC thru FEB will be the coldest
    times so they order Kero fillups.  It burns much hotter and they
    havnt had anyfreeze up problems since.
    
    Back when Kero stoves were still in home use, my oil man used to
    carry one tank with Kero and one with #2.  He'd fill the tank with
    a 50-50 mix.  That worked out great.  FYI, I use a 1/3 mix for my
    tractors and dozer and have had no freeze up problems.
    
    As far as the heat tape goes.....you might equal out the difference
    in cost in your electric bill to your kero cost....
    
    JD

RE: .0

 Heat tapes are a no no on flammable type stuff. They generate much more heat 
than is necessary to keep the lines clear. 

 Best thing to do is get a couple cans of "Hot Shot".. This is dry-gas for 
oil tanks. Your oil company should have it. Its cheap insurance and a lot 
less dangerous than a heat tape.

 A better fuel mix for outdoor tanks is what they call the "mobile home 
blend". Its 60% no2 and 40% kero. and it never thickens, seperates or gums 
up. 

    
     you may want to check with your fire chief too. The chief issues the
    permits for fuel storage. If you alter your fuel storage so that it's
    not up to code (heat tape ?, etc) you may have problems with your
    insurance co, and the authorities, should a fire occur.
    
    Bob      

	I also had this problem occur a few times a year. I tried heat
	tape on the line, but it didn't work. I had the oil co. add 
	Hot Shot to the fuel. Did not work. I had them add double the
	amount of Hot Shot. Did not work. About a month ago, I had them
	deliver 100 gallons of karosene to about 150 gallons of #2 
	that was already there. I have not had a problem since. The cost
	was about 30 cents more a gallon, or $30.00. It was a well spent
	$30.00 !!

	Good luck

	Ken

    For the sake of my own curiosity, I drained off a pint or two of my
    heating oil and placed it in two clear containers outside my house
    and observed them on a couple of mornings when the temps were in the
    single digits.  The viscosity was notably increased, but both would
    gravity flow through an ordinary 1/4" copper tube and fitting.
    
    I introduced some water, agitated it, and found that that container
    turned to crap.
    
    In closing I recall reading about kerosene fires being plentiful
    years ago (e.g. the 30's and 40's), as kerosene has a flash point 
    only a little greater than gasoline.
    
    Check your fuel oil dealer
    
    Ron

    RE: .11
    
    No....kerosense has a much higher temperature. Its use in lamps
    was sucessful because you needed a wick to make it burn. The vapors
    at room temp will not burn.
    
    Gasoline is the opposite. Its vapors will burn at room and most
    temperatures that you would want to live in. Thats why its so
    good in an engine.
    
    Marc H.

    
    re: Ron
    
    About the kero fires.... They were more related to poor care
    of materials than flash points.  Back then there was a large
    useage of a wick type heating system.  If you flooded the system
    on lighting, it would spill over the wick tray and thus resulting in
    a dangerous condition.  
    
    The place I used to live at had a stove of that nature.  2, 6"dia.,
    burners cranked up would put out a 70K btu rating.  It would blow
    you right out of the kitchen on a cold day....  But the wicks needed
    the carbon cleaned off every once and a while.
    
    JD

    Priscilla,
    
         This reply may be to late, but nonetheless..... My oil tank used
    to be outside. It was for several years. I didn't move it in until 3 or
    4 years after buying my house. Each year the local oil shieks(Roy Bros.
    in Ashburnham{no complaints from me!}) would periodically(winter mos.) 
    add an additive to the tank during fill-up. Not sure of the cost, as we
    moved the tank inside five years ago. No less than $10, no more than
    $50, for a 275 gallon tank. We never had a problem.
    
    Good Luck!
    
             Steve

    Re: .11 & .12
    
    This may be dated but the flash point for both #1 and #2 oil
    is 100 F. The pour points are 0 F for #1 and 20 F for #2. These
    are ASTM requirements for fuel oil.
    
    Joe

    Re: .15
    
    Please define flash point.
    
    Marc H.

�    Please define flash point.
    
    From the DEC HLO Hazard Communication/Chemical Safety course workbook:
    
    "Flashpoint:  The temperature at which enough of the liquid will
    evaporate to form an ignitable mixture with air.  The lower the
    flashpoint the more hazardous the material."
    
    A material with a flashpoint <100�F is classified as flammable. 
    Materials with a flashpoint >100�F is a combustible.

    Another way of putting it (I think):  if you hold a match over a
    container of fuel oil and the temperature is less than 100 degrees,
    the fuel oil won't ignite.  If the temperature is over 100 degrees,
    the vapors will ignite above the container.

    First of all, thanks so much, everyone, for taking the time to read
    and respond!  I've learned so much and its really helped me deal with
    the oil delivery folks in an informed manner.
    
    I've decided that, since my tank is outside and is at this time
    unprotected, I'm going to use pure kersosene during the coldest months
    and a 1:2 mix during the warmer months.  It'll be more expensive but I
    also use a woodstove as a heat source as well, which should enable me
    to stretch out the petrol supply a bit.
    
    Priscilla

    
    Priscilla,

    Believe it or not, the wood stove is probably part of your problem.
    At least is was for me. What happens is, with the wood stove going,
    my furnace would go hours before kicking on. This allowed the fuel
    more time to really thicken up in the 1/4 inch line, and the filter.
    As I stated in .10, the kerosine solved it for me so you should be
    all set.

    Ken

    
    
    I have a reasonably new FHW Oil fired boiler, and I'm looking for a
    reputable person to come by for a yearly cleaning.  Rather than hooking
    into a service contract, I just want this done.  Can anyone recommend
    somebody in the Clinton, MA area for me to call?  Many places seem to 
    want me to buy their oil before I get service (arrgghh).  Also, can
    anyone recommend a plumbing supply where I could pick up a spare
    nozzle for myself?
    
    Thanks a bunch,
    
        Jim

    I used to have this problem, until I discovered that my regular
    plumbers do boiler work too.  Try the Johnson Brothers -- they're
    listed in both Boylston and Wet Boylston.  I found them by asking an
    old townie friend who are the best plumbers around.  I've been very
    happy with them, both in terms of service and prices.
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry
    
    PS -- I used to buy the argument that a service contract guarantees
    that they'll come whenever you need them.  Then I realized that anyone
    who wants to be in the boiler repair business has got to come anytime 
    someone calls and says they have no heat and it's cold.  If they
    don't, that customer won't call again!  And in fact, the Johnson
    Brothers did come when I had a breakdown one Christmas.

�Try the Johnson Brothers -- they're
�    listed in both Boylston and Wet Boylston.  I found them by asking an
�    old townie friend who are the best plumbers around.  
    
    How good can they be when they turned West Boylston into Wet Boylston?
    
    :^)

    Sorry -- Wet Boylston is the part of town under the reservoir and they 
    aren't listed there anymore.  :-)  And anyway, that was Boston's fault.

    I am in the process of backing up the heating system in a house in
    northern Maine (ie cold). I presently have electric storage heaters
    controlled by central controller which triggers on Off peak, history,
    demand, and external temperature. Considering it is electric it is
    reasonably cost efficent but, as noted in some previous notes, it
    likes to stablize and stay that way - so you end up using more power
    than you really need.
    
    Given oil or propane the numbers, and our desire not to have a 
    submarine in our yard, support oil. Although we would prefer FHW
    the cost of retrofit and the gain have pushed us into giving
    up a little ceiling space in the basement for FHA. FHA will be
    very efficent in that the majority of the house is open with catherial
    ceilings.
    
    Now the question...Our chimney is single flued and cannot be used for
    anything but the fireplace. My choice is a "power vent" or running a
    metal stove pipe up to the roof which will be a joy since none
    of the closets align. 
    
    Does anyone have experiences with oil & power vents....I would
    be very interested in your opinion.
    
    Regards                                             
    Bob
    
    

I don't have any first hand experience with them.  But I do know that 
they are widely used now by contractors in new homes.  In addition, 
my cousin has used one for four years or so in a new house that he
had built.  He is very happy with it, and claims that is is better 
than a "chimney" because you can precisely set the draw on the furnace.

I will most likely be installing one in my house because I want to use a 
wood stove in my basement(I have one flue in the basement) and I'll relocate 
my furnace to a area that not close to my chimney.  The cost is around 
$200-$300 for the power-flue.  I have a copy of the installation and 
operations manual from the unit that my cousin has; it's made by the 
Fields Control Company.  If you are interested in a copy, send me your
LOC/MS and I'll send it along.

-Brian

Hi Bob,

I have a power vent in my new home and it seems to work fairly well.  It is,
generally speaking, quiet, until the system is broken in, then it has a tendency 
to vibrate.  The HVAC guy only installed one ``engine mount'' on the bracket that
supports the motor housing, and the piping is held up by metal strapping-- 
I plan to add shock mounts on these support straps to dampen the vibrations.

The only drawback I see to these systems is the interior space they occupy.
(I plan to box it in along with the furnace.)

Ron

P.S. The good thing about the power vents is that you can adjust the timing
of the pre- and post-burning vent time, which might be a plus for someone 
burning various grades of wood.

> which might be a plus for someone burning various grades of wood.

The units that I've seen are for oil/gas furnaces and the like.  I
think using a power-vent with wood would be a real no-no.  I'd be 
very concerned about creosote build-up.

    	I just installed one not to long ago. I looked but couldn't find
    the note I had entered. I suspect this and the previous notes may get
    moved to the topic I replied to anyway.
    
    	Just to recap, I got the Side-shot made by Tjurnland. It cost $295
    and can easily be installed in a day. So far I'm happy with it. The
    unit I have mixes approx. 75% outside air with 25% flue gas. The head
    temp is only supposed to reach 120 degrees maximum, meaning you can go
    through the sill-plate with this unit.
    
    	I'm working from home and it takes forever to do a title search for
    some reason, but if you're so inclined a
    DIR/AUTHOR=DODIER/SINCE=1-SEP-1993 *.* should find the previous note I
    replied to regarding this topic.
    
    	Ray

    Thanks I found the replies in notes 2006.48-2006.77 about
    chimney cleaners.
    
    Maybe you could help be with the information supplied. The 12"
    above grade is not a problem. Although this is an area of heavy
    snow, I understand the constraints. But why the 4' from a window?
    
    I'd be hard pressed to find any area that is 4' from a window.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    

    Great... if thats the only issue :
    
    Heat running and window open are mutually exclusive events.
    In fact I could permanently shut the window over a vent.
    
    Thanks
    

    	In my case, my boiler is part of the furnace (tank-less system), so
    the furnace runs to heat my domestic hot-water. Other than that, it may
    also be required by code. My local building inspector told me that the
    vent had to be 12" above the finish grade and 4' from the nearest
    window.
    
    	You may need to check with your local inspector to see if he/she
    will require you to conform to the 4' rule.
    
    	Ray

When installing the power vent you also need to consider the source of your 
fresh air for the burner-- if you have a hoizontal inlet (i.e., not supplied
by a pipe from the attic or from above the roof line), you need to have the
same (I believe) 4' clearance between the exhaust and intake.  I stumbled 
onto this when I began to design my finished basement and found that the 
HVAC guy assumed that the volume of air in an unfinished basement would be 
the fresh air supply for the burner.  Now that I'm finishing the basement and
have no easy way to run a vertical fresh air supply within the interior of
the house, I need to run a horizontal intake that is sufficiently removed from 
the vent exhaust.


I have a question for the noter with the SideShot: Do you have a small piece
of flashing over the top of the exhaust outlet?  I have the SideShot and noticed
that the manual called for a small piece of flashing (that doesn't grossly 
obstruct the exhaust path), yet my HVAC guy didn't install it (new house).  
I have had a bit of rainwater running into the SideShot and down the piping 
whenever we've had heavy rain and driving winds.  After reviewing the manual
and measuring everything (openings, location with repsect to wind flow patterns,
etc.) this is the only thing (flashing) I could think of that is lacking.

    We considered using a power vent for our gas furnace and gas water
    heater, but we decided against it due to concern about flue gases
    entering the house through an open window.  The requirement for the
    vent to be 4' from a window clearly indicates that flue gases are a
    hazard.

    Sometimes when the air is blowing just right, I can smell wood smoke
    exiting a chimney many feet above our 2-story house when I'm standing
    on the ground.  I'm worried that flue gases from a ground level vent
    could easily find their way into any open window on the side of the
    house.

    This caution zaps our plan to tear out the wall containing the existing
    chimney in order to make one big room out of two smaller ones.

    -- Ward

    
    Ward,
    
    Just as another data point, this type of flue is more common in the UK
    than using a conventional chimney.   Natural gas is used in about 80%
    of homes.  Wall-mounted natural gas multipoint boilers are common
    and the only restrictions about locating them are that they
    cannot be directly below a window, unless it is 8' below. 
    
    The flue is unpowered and called a "balanced flue", basically it draws
    in combustion air and expels combustion products through two metal
    boxes side-by side.  The last time I installed one was in a friend's
    apartment in London - and they have the stiffest building regs in the
    country.  Gas connection must be done by a gas company fitter, after a
    local gov't inspection AND a gas Co inspection.   (I recently watched a
    TOH where Richard Trethewey was explaining a similar set up in the
    London flat that Steve & Norm were working on.)
    
    As far as I know are no recorded instances of fumes entering houses
    from these units, and you cannot ever even smell the fumes. All my
    family have them, and in most cases the vent is well within 4' of a
    window or door.
    
    I'd think that a power vent would be even safer, although there's
    no demonstrable risk from the balanced flue type.
    
    regrds,
    
    Colin
                    

    re: Flashing
    
    	Yes, mine did come with a piece of flashing, of sorts. It was
    shaped something like this -
    
    
    	 --
    	|  \
    	|   |
        |
    
    	The directions also said that the vent hood should be caulked with
    an exterior caulk and the horizontal exhaust shaft should be pointing in
    a slightly downward direction.
    
    BTW - I'm in Auburn, NH if you want to stop by and check it out.
    
    Re: balanced flue types
    
    	I suspect this may be what the HST1 model I mentioned in 2006.73
    was. I was told by the outfit I bought mine from that they would
    eventually start showing a soot mark above the vent outlet whereas the
    Side-shot wouldn't. For the $70 more, the� Side-shot seemed like a good
    deal.

I also have a Side-Shot installed.  My only complaint
is that after the burner has stopped and after the
Side-Shot blower has stopped a while after that, there
is a slight residual odor which escapes out of the
draft regulator into the basement.  I believe this
happens because there is no positive draft to maintain
an outward air flow with the short horizontal run to the
outside.  I could have the blower stay on longer but
wonder if the best solution is to install a fresh air
supply from the outside to the combustion chamber, AND
to the draft regulator.  This would pretty much close the
whole system off to the inside air.

I don't believe there is much of a health risk to the
residual odor since combustion has stopped and there
should not be much carbon monoxide left in the chamber
since the blower stays on for a while to purge it out.

Chet

    	I have not noticed this with mine. My fan runs for about 15-20
    seconds after the burner stops. This pretty much removes anything left
    in the pipe and the furnace outlet.
    
    	Ray

RE: .13

I too, on occassion, get a bit of residual odor, but only when the pressure 
differential is against me, not necessarily after the programmed venting.  You
could try increasing the vent timing to see if that helps.  If it doesn't add a
fresh air supply (such as a slightly opened window or otherwise).  You might 
want to double check the calculations for your burner's fresh air requirements 
before you create the fresh air supply inlet so that you don't have to continually
to expand the supply size of the supply.  Check the burner specs first.  If you 
can't locate them, send me E-mail and I'll add a reply with the generic info from
my oil burner specs.

    I think the comment about pressure differential sums up my problem.
    I'm finishing up a renovation project and the house is no where near
    tight yet.  The warmed inside air is escaping in various places
    creating the draw from all openings, including the Side-Shot.  Getting
    the house sealed up again should fix it.  The new burner and Side-Shot
    were part of the renovation, and included in the bid was external
    combustion air venting.  I'll rely on the contractor to size the
    vents appropriately.  Thanks for the comments.
    
    Chet

	Last Wed or Thur during the night my FHW system shutdown.
	The first thing I checked was the strainer on the fuel
	pump, it was clogged with sludge.  What's interesting
	however is that that strainer was only put in [new] last
	April and probably has had only about 300 gallons max
	of oil flow through it.  The oil filter coming off the
	tank I had also replaced not long before the strainer
	(replacing the tank filter was likely the cause of
	sludge buildup in the strainer).

	I'm wondering if maybe I've got too much sludge building
	up in the bottom of my tank?  Even though the boiler that
	came with the house is only 5 years old, the tank is
	possibly about 32 years old (the natural gas line coming
	into the house was capped off in 1962).

	Do tanks need to be pumped out every so many years or so?

 
	I wish  I  had  read  this string earlier - seems the going rate for an
	annual  burner cleaning is $35?? In calling around the Concord-Harvard-
	Fitchburg area, all the price quotes I got were twice that - $70!

	But the  reason  I  came  in  here is that I have an oil company ethics
	question  resulting  from  having  no heat this Saturday night - on the
	coldest  night  of  the year so far with 'life-threatening' temps (what
	was it, -5 out?)

	Three months  ago  I  called  an  oil  company  for my first oil burner
	cleaning (charged $70).  The guy who came was extremely rough and (imo)
	very  abusive  toward the equipment.  He threw the parts around, yanked
	the  chimney  pipes around without caution, threw them on the floor and
	just  generally treated every piece of the furnace like a PO'ed brute -
	including  the  delicate copper tubing bringing in the oil supply which
	he  bent  and  put a kink in.  I thought the problem was just me and my
	perception  -  that  I  am  too  sensitive toward my own equipment, and
	forgot about the experience.

	Then Saturday  we came home at midnight to find the house at 34 degrees
	with  the burner shutdown.  We tried re-starting it twice, twice it ran
	for  30  seconds  and shutdown.  The company who cleaned it only had an
	answering machine, so we called another company with 24-hr service that
	I had bought oil from before as well.  That guy came - he was much much
	better  and  kept  shaking  his  head  at  everything  in regard to the
	previous  guy  - "there's just no call for this." The previous guy bent
	the copper tubing so the ferrule was loose - I'd been leaking oil.  And
	the  reason  the  burner didn't start was that the previous guy broke a
	piece  of the fibrulator (sp, the cone that directs the flame) off when
	he  slammed  the  unit  back  in.  It looked physically broken by force
	rather than the heat to me, as the new service guy pointed out as well.
	It was clear that the previous person's rough-shot shoddy work resulted
	in  my  having  having  no heat and having to make an emergency service
	call at midnight.

	Should the  previous company reimburse me for the emergency call bill I
	had  to  make  because  their guy broke my fibrulator? (I was lucky the
	emergency  service  guy just happened to have a spare one of my type in
	his truck).  I think they are lucky my pipes didn't freeze resulting in
	damages  to  my  place, that paying for this emergency call is cheap in
	comparison.   (I  haven't  received  the  emergency call bill yet).  Or
	should  I  just  forget  about  it and roll over like a timid consumer,
	because  oil  companies  aren't like Filene's when it comes to customer
	service?  My  copper  oil  line  still  has a 90 degree kink in it, but
	hopefully now it still isn't leaking oil.

	If the  previous company refuses to pay for the call, I guess I have no
	recourse,  and will write it off as "I'll never use them again." Do you
	think I'm likely to be accommodated, or am I asking to much from an oil
 	company?

	Memories of  how abusive the previous guy was came back all that night.
	This hassle makes $70 for some vacuum cleaning and screwing in a nossle
	seem  like highweay robbery - enough to make me want learn how to do it
	myself.   

	-Erik

    Well, it won't cost more than some of your time and a 29 cent stamp
    to write a letter and, as factually as you can, to state your case.
    Even if you get nothing out of it, at least you will have made the
    attempt.  You *certainly* won't get anything if you don't try.  
    
    I know if I were running an oil company, I'd certainly want to hear
    if one of my employees was screwing up like that.  If you discover
    that this particular oil company doesn't care...then you'll know they don't
    care about your business and you can take it elsewhere.

    
    
    This is what I would do short of nuking the place...:)
    
    Have Oil Co.#2 who fix the problem with up what 
    problems were caused by #1.  
    Send a registered letter with the bill from #2 saying
    if you dont get a responce from them within 10 days and
    or reinbursed for damages caused.  You will report it
    to the BB and file a hearing date in small claimes court
    for damages.
    
    I would you say that with all said and done, you have them
    where it herts!:)
    
    JD

    
    	Thanks for the support & suggestions. I like the BB one. That's
    	exactly what I'll do when I get the bill from oil co. #2. We'll
    	see what happens...
    
    	-Erik 

    	I'd also cc a copy of the letter to the attorney general's office,
    they like to hear stuff like that. Or before doing anything call them & 
    ask for their advise.
    
    	A friend had an oil co send an advertisment offer to him stating to
    the effect "new customer offer get a 100 gals. of home heating oil
    free..." Well he called the co & they told him it was a misprint it was
    suppose to read get 10 gals free or something like that. So he called
    the AG's office & they had heard about it but said the co did try to
    make amends so the orig deal was NG. But they did tell him if he
    receives another offer like that from this same co to immeadiately call
    them, they'd want to know about that.
    
     It's worth a phone call.
    
    Alan
    

    I'm kicking around the idea of converting our FHW system from Propane
    (thru-wall vent) to Oil.. If we were to do that, we'd need a power vent
    or *something* because there is no chimney available.
    
    I need to replace the current vent 'cuz it's rusting out; $300 just for
    the parts. Apparently the boiler we have is about the cheapest device
    possible, and it's history says we're going to be spending about $150 a
    year maintaining it. 
    
    We burned about $1500 in propane over the past year; at that rate I
    should be able to save $400-$500 a year in fuel costs with a
    conversion. 
    
    I suppose another option is some sort of higher-efficiency propane
    furnace, but the BTU/$ ratio for propane is pretty dismal..
    
    Any current news on the soot situation, and on the general idea of
    power vents? Is is feasible to run a long power vent (encased in siding
    to match the house) up to roof-level to avoid the soot problem? (this
    would be two stories up..)
    
    ...tom

Tom,

as you already have the Propane setup, why not stay with it.

I have been using a Hydropulse boiler for the last 7 years without 
any hitch and its efficiency has saved me tons of $$. 

The Hydropulse vents through a plastic pipe to the outside, max run 
of piping is approx. 30 ft.

I run on Natural gas, there are propane versions available.

Send mail if you want more details than I'm willing to type in this 
note

Rudolf

    	I have a power vent which I installed last Sept.. So far, so good.
    The cost was about $300 and the max. temp on the outside of the double
    (possibly triple) wall pipe is 120 degrees F. This allows you to mount it 
    in direct contact with wood. It has a squirrel cage fan and there are
    no signs of soot on the outside of the house.
    
    	I have over 2400 sq. ft. of living space and paid approx. $800 for
    heat last season. My house is 25 years old and I have single pane glass
    with storms (read - not nearly the best R value). I have a Beckett oil
    burner with a Weil/Mclean boiler. All things considered, I'm happy with
    my system.
    
    	Ray

    We had a new house build next to us (~2800sq feet colonial) 
    with a power vent oil-boiler set up. 
    
    I came home one night and  heard this god awful
    whining from the vent, like a load air contitioner.
    I asked the owner does that thing always make that noise or
    is it busted, thats how load these things are. I guess it
    can depend a lot on the set up of your house. If your in a urban
    or suburban setting with small frontages I would not use
    one of the power vent becuase of the noise and the
    proxity of your neighbors house can set up an echo-amplifier
    of the noise. They should be fine for rural areas.
    
    Anyway I guess it was too loud for
    the new owner as well, there is now a chimney replacing
    the power vent.

    	re:9
    
    	Maybe it has to do with the brand that you get. I installed one in
    my house and it was no louder than the blower for the burner. Perhaps
    it is just getting old ?
    
    	Ray

    was a brand new shiny vent, I dont know the brand.
    
    

    It's been over 2 years since the last few notes were posted, and I'd
    like to know how that Riello burner has been doing.  I'm considering 
    replacing a 17 year old burner on my Weil-Mclain boiler, and am
    considering the Riello.  The guy I'm dealing with says he has a bunch
    of them in the field, all of which have had an excellent track record. 
    As far as efficiency, he claims that they are more efficient than the
    standard Becket, but the difference is very slight.  I'd like to hear
    from someone who has actually been living with a Riello for a while.
    Also, someone had mentioned a few back that Becket came out with a
    burner comparable to the Riello.  Has anyone had any experience with
    these yet?
    
    Dave

	I've got a Riello burner.  It was installed in 1989, though I've
	only owned the place for 3 years.  No major problems.  I did
	have to remove it from the boiler and clean it last year,
	and the year before I had to replace the screen/filter on the
	pump (I think I caused it to clog when I replaced the main
	oil filter).

    
    Yep, that 2 year old Riello has had no problems...I do get annual PM's
    done on my system though...re .21 and clogged pump screen, when the guy
    installed my Riello, he added a second in line filter. I think he did 
    mention something about them being more susceptible to dirt/clogs, maybe
    due to the smaller nozzle size.
    
    I'm still not thrilled with my flame noise, I guess I'll have to live 
    with it, or use some sound insulation techniques to minimize it.
    
    Would I buy another Riello? Yes, I probably would, but I'd like to HEAR
    the Beckett and compare noise. The Beckett AFG ($145 cheaper 2 years ago)
    is a very popular and widely used unit. I haven't priced the newer
    (AF2) that is supposed to resemble the Riello.
    
    /Charlie
    

>I haven't priced the newer(AF2)
This wouldn't by chance be the newer Beckett's with the
outside air source, would it ??

I have a friend who does FHA systems with oil burners,
said (last year around this timeframe) that Beckett
was having a hard time getting the newer burner
units that use outside air source, to burn CLEAN !!
They were replacing many units, that were cloging,
and could not figure how to solve the problem of the
burner burning dirty when the outside temp changes.
Dont know if they got it settled by now or not !!
if i find out I'll report back..

Jim

   > This wouldn't by chance be the newer Beckett's with the
   > outside air source, would it ??
    
    I have no idea...My guy didn't want to sell it to me because it was so
    new (2 years ago). But I thought he said it was somewhat of a copy of my
    Riello (which doesn't use outside air)....
    
    /Charlie

With 54 notes on Oil heat I hoope I picked the right one.

	This is our first heating season in a new (for us) house and it's our
first time heatng with oil FHW.  When the burner starts up it seems to be fairly
loud.  Loud enough so that it sounds like you're down the cellar rather than
upstairs in the living room. As it runs, it quiets down in a minute or two to
the point where you can't really hear it upstairs.  Is this typical of oil
burners?   The system is 8 years old and is a Weil-McLean.

Thanks,

George

    	I have a Weil-McLean with a Beckett burner and you can hear it in
    the room right above the furnace, but its not loud enough where you'd
    have to turn up the TV or anything.
    
    	You definitely can't hear it from the second floor. Do you have any
    insulation in between the floor joists downstair ? If not, this would
    probably help a lot.
    
    	Ray

Your burner may be mis-firing for a short time and the excess 
oil eventually ignites. That can be loud; I went through that.
It was a badly adjusted burner. The guy that was trying to
tune it up has also been 'adjusted'.

Dan

i also have a weil-mclean w/becket. 

> When the burner starts up it seems to be fairly
>loud.  Loud enough 

No doubt about it . These are somewhat loud. 

Since its your first season, and every oil burner
furnace should be checked/cleaned once a year,
i would have it checked.

FWIW, i caught you saying the sound changed. I WOULD
have it checked soon, cause the sound on most
i've heard have been constant thru the entire burn cycle.....

    
    Quick question for do it yourselfer's.  I want to do the yearly
    cleanout of my FHW Oil boiler to save the $50 they charge to
    check electrodes, vacuum, put a new nozzle in, and replace the
    filter - besides it looks like fun :^).  I have a standard
    beckett burner, and live in the 495/117 area in MA.
    
    My question is where do you go to get your boiler parts?  Are
    they friendly to homeowners or do I not say anything and let
    them assume I'm a professional?
    
    Thanks,
    
       Jim D.

    I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm wondering what sort
    of vacuum cleaner you're planning on using.  The crud that comes out of
    your furnace is going to be rather rough on an ordinary home vacuum.
    
    I once considered doing it myself, but decided against it because I
    didn't want to ruin my vacuum cleaner (plus I didn't want to buy the
    equipment for measuring the furnace efficiency).

    I do my own FHA system.  The oil filters are available at any plumbing
    supply store as are the nozzles.  However I could only find my nozzle
    at COAN Oil in Natick.
    
    You can even get filters at Sommerville Lumber, don;t know about
    nozzles.
    
    Regards, Mark

    You can get nozzles at Sommerville Lumber, at least the one in Acton. 
    They're in the plumbing section.  In the locked case with the
    thermostats.  
    
    Ken
    

    Wanting to have a locally convenient source of burner parts, I 
    bought my nozzle and filter at Knight Oil Co. in downtown Hudson
    Mass.  Their prices were decent and they were happy to help.
    
       Jim

    		How big is the room for a boiler?
    
    I am considering to change electricity heating to oil heating. Since my
    house is two-story split entry, no basement is available for oil tank
    and boiler. We are thinking to put oil tank in the garage and the
    boiler into a small spare room, which is about 4'x3' size. Does anybody
    have idea that this room is big enough to hold a boiler? What is
    general requirment for a room to hold a boiler? what is the minimum
    distance between the boiler and walls? Thanks anyone who could give
    me any suggestions in advace.
    
    Tongbi
    

	It really depends on the specific boiler.  The installation
	instructions give clearances, and most boilers that I'm
	familiar with even have them stuck on the boiler itself
	(maybe the law?).

	The other thing you'll have to be concerned about is venting
	the exhaust.  Seeing you have electric heat now, you probably
	don't have an unused chimney/flu to vent to, which means you'll
	have to powervent.  Then you have to worry about clearances to
	windows and such, and about max (and min) vent piping length
	(and pitch/turns/etc).

	Plus State and local building codes ......

    Tongbi-
    
     Contact a few people who sell boilers and ask them what they
    recommend. It sounds like you have a rather specific set of
    circumstances surrounding your installation, which they will probably
    have dealt with before. You can also get competing prices this way, and
    choose the optimal solution.

    My oil furnace is in a small furnace room about not much larger than
    yours (about 4x6). My house is in Mass and was build about 20 years ago.
    I would check with your town building inspector for requirements. Only
    thing I couldn't do was to move my oil tank into the furnace room. It had
    to be at least 3 feet from boiler to meet spec. Had to build a shed
    under my porch, just outside furnace room and run pipes through the
    wall to the furnace. If you can't put the furnace in your small room, you
    might consider doing something like this and put your furnace in the
    shed too.
    
    Ray

    Thanks for the information. Actually, we have a storage room under 
    the porch. But it is not insulated. Is your shed insulated? Do you have
    any trouble in winters? 
    
    Tongbi
    

    Yes, the shed is insulated, however, my neighbor built a shed like mine
    when he moved his oil tank and his is not insulated and he has no
    problems. With the heat from the boiler, I'm sure you would not have
    any problems.
    
    As pointed out in a previous note, a problem you will have to address
    is how to vent the exhaust from the furnace...build a chimney...power
    vent???
    
    Ray

    Re: .5
    
    The storage room I mentioned in previous reply is not next to the small 
    room for the boiler. If the oil tank is put there, it will not get any
    heat. Do you think there would be any problem in winters?
    
    For venting the exhaust, a new chimney will be built up, thinking it 
    would be better than a power vent in the long run.
    
    Thanks again for all information.
    
    Tongbi
    

    As long as the storage room is adjacent to a heated part of the house,
    it should get enough heat through the wall to keep the oil from
    gelling. My neighbor's shed is not insulated and contains only his oil
    tank. He has not had any problems with it at all.
    
    Ray

My Beckett oil burner is making a funny noise which I'll describe below.  We
have FHW, the system is about 8 years old.  We've had the annual service
(cleaning, etc.)  every year we've been in this house and it's running fine.  No
reported problems.

Right after the burner was cleaned 1.5 years ago (summer `94) the burner started
making this funny noise.  I was told that it wasn't a problem, but then it did
start happening right after a service call, so maybe it was something he did  ...
Last summer's cleaning didn't change the noise.

The noise sounds like "Wah-Wah-Wah-Wah ..."  It's not the sound of the flame,
the flame is nice and steady.  I think it's the sound of the motor on the
burner.  Before that cleaning, the motor sound was nice and steady too.  But
ever since, it's been like this, not a steady sound, but an oscillating sound
"Wah-Wah ...", about twice per second.  

It's been like this for 1.5 years now, and I haven't noticed any deterioration
in anything else, and there was nothing unusual reported when it was cleaned
last summer.  I'm wondering now because I've started to notice some booming
lately when the burner fires up every now and then.

This is not like the "thump-thump" sound described a few replies ago.  

Any ideas?  Thanks,

-Chris

    Don;t know about the wahwah effect (sound like a motor bearing noise),
    but the boom sound when it starts up may be from improper ignition
    timing.  If the ignition is late there is to much built up oil/air
    mixture in the combustion chamber and when it first ignites you get the
    explosion (boom), sometimes this may be accompanied by a puff of black
    smoke exiting the combustion chamber.
    
    You should check for dirty electrodes and dirty spray nozzle.  You can
    clean the electrodes with carb cleaner sprayed on papertowels, but be
    careful not to change the shape/bend of the electrodes, they have to be
    at a certain distance/angle from the nozzle tip.  If the nozzle is
    clogged/dirty replace it (about $6).
    
    Good luck... Mark

re Note 88.406 by 11666::CLEMENT:

>     You should check for dirty electrodes and dirty spray nozzle.  You can
>     clean the electrodes with carb cleaner sprayed on papertowels, but be
>     careful not to change the shape/bend of the electrodes, they have to be
>     at a certain distance/angle from the nozzle tip.  

        I recently received advice from the manufacturer of my oil
        burner that a possible cause of poor ignition is blunting of
        the electrodes -- they should come to a point.

        (They also FAXed me the installation instructions, which have
        detailed measurements for electrode spacing and placement. 
        This was Carlin -- (800) 989-2275.)

        Bob

    
    Can anyone tell me what the gases are that are emitted and what should
    the readings be?  Is carbon monoxide one of the gased emitted?  I have
    a carbon monoxide detector close to the burner.  One techinician told
    me that carbon monoxide is not one of the emitted gases.  Another one
    said that some carbon monoxide is emitted, but shouldn't be >2 (what
    ever that means) and not to worry becuase it's not enough to kill you.
    
    
    ems
    

    	Carbon monoxide is most certainly one of the gases emitted from
    burning any fossil fuel. I had a chimney sweep go balistic because I
    had cracks in the flue liner that my oil burner was connected to. 
    
    	It seems every year there is at least one dead family at the
    beginning of the heating season due to a faulty burner. It usually has
    something to do with an obstruction somewhere in the burner venting 
    system (i.e. a birds nest blocking the chimney flue). 
    
    	Based on what I've heard, I would not trust a technician that told me 
    not to worry about carbon monoxide. If they are that misinformed, they
    aren't likely to know as much as they should about the burner either.
    
    	Ray

CO is certainly emitted by an oil burner (and to a lesser extent, a gas burner),
but if the exhaust system and venting are in order, it does not pose a problem. 
The key is making sure that all is in order, and checking it on a regular basis.

				Steve

	The other thing to remember that is needed for proper venting is
	proper air flow to the fire box.  If you have one of those air
	tight houses (which includes the basement) then there should
	be a pipe from the outside going to the heating system that
	feeds it outside air.

	I believe the proper air flow to the heating system is also
	important for it to burn cleanly, else you'll get improper
	combustion, of which I also believe is increased CO?

Absolutely.  Proper air intake means enough oxygen to turn the CO into CO2
(carbon dioxide, which is harmless).

				Steve

    
    What color is oil?  Oil is leaking slightly at the filter (canister
    near the oil tank).  There is a groove along the top perimeter of the
    canister, and oil is collecting there.  The color is pinkish.  If I 
    wipe a bit of the oil off with my finger, the oil appears clear.  What
    would cause the oil to leak at this point?  The cannister has been 
    replaced recently.  I had the same problem with the previous cannister,
    which had been replaced and in operation only 3 months.  Replacing the
    cannister, I don't think was the cure for the problem.
    
    Also, there appears to be a leak at the burner end.  sorry, I don't
    know the terminology, but a tube (inlet tube) enters a rather flat 4"
    square shaped thing that has hex nuts on it.  I can rub my finger along
    the square thing and the tube and joint connetion, and I get a black,
    sooty oil on my fingers.  What would cause this?
    
    Are the two problems related, as one leak is at the tank end where the
    cannister is, and the other leak is at the square box thing at the 
    burner.
    
    ems
    
    p.s.  I did have a fresh air intake installed, which draws air in from
    the outside, but I still have problems with a burnt or oil smell.  
    Recently the technician installed an automatic shut off valve and said
    that should do it.  HOwever, I am still getting oil odors and I have
    noticed the leaks which I mentioned above.  Also, after the fresh air
    intake was installed, there may have been a kaboom incidence.  I was
    not home at the time, but my daughter was, so I don't know for sure if
    the noise was from inside the house or something outside.  
                                   

Heating oil is dyed (reddish I believe) to allow a method to catch those who
would use it instead of diesel fuel to avoid paying highway taxes (truckers).
I wouldn't expect it to be dyed so heavily to appear strongly colored when
you're talking about a thin film on a finger.

-Mike

    re: .13
    
    The "rather flat square thing" is where the oil pump and screen are
    located.  It sounds like you have leaking gaskets both here and at the
    filter.  As for the sooty smell, this can remain for quite a while
    after smoke has entered the area.  
    
    If there are "booms" when running the furnace, the unit needs to be
    adjusted.  The noise is from the oil igniting.  This usually occurs
    because the nozzle is gummed up and can not nebulize the oil enough to
    ignite.  Also, if the igniter rods are not positioned correctly, than
    there will not be sufficient spark to ignite the oil either.
    
    I would suggest a complete cleaning/overhaul of the system.  If this
    was done recently, get a different person/company to do it as the first
    didn't do too well.
    
    Dan

       
    Thanks for the info.  Unfortunately, I just renewed the service
    contract, and I wish that I hadn't.  I do have a service/cleaning
    that goes with the contract, so I want to get that out of them at
    least.  But after that, I will change oil companies if the problem
    is not resolved.  'They' are trying to tell me that the problem is
    related to poor draft, and that I should have chimney cracks filled.
    That should increase the draft, and voila, solve the problem.  I have
    had two masons look at fixing the cracks and have asked their opinion
    about whether or not the draft will be better.  The answer I got was
    maybe, maybe not.  Draft is tricky, and many things influence draft.
    I do want to fix the cracks, but I am not convinced that my burner
    problems are related to the chimney cracks.  I have already spent $250
    for a fresh air intake, which has not helped my initial problem, so
    I could spend another $500 to fix the cracks and still have the
    problem.  I don't like the idea of throwing money at a problem that
    no one wants or knows how to diagnose. (I just spent $800 to replace
    a clutch in my standard car, and the problem turned out to be spark
    plugs!)
    
    ems

    re: Note 88.416 by USCTR1::ESULLIVAN
    
>    I have already spent $250
>        for a fresh air intake,
    
    just curious, what size tube was used for this, and what type of
    material ??
    
    jim

    
    
    I thought I'd chronicle my recent oil burner problems for the record
    so that it might help y'all if you run into a similar set of symptoms.
    
    I have a four year old Utica oil forced hot water boiler with tankless
    domestic hot water and a standard Beckett AFW flame retention burner.
    These are simple beasts - they only need air, oil, and an ignition
    spark to run reliably, but they still can be a nuisance.
    
    About three months ago we started waking to no hot water occasionally.
    Perhaps twice in a week, then things would be fine for two to three
    more weeks.  If I went down and reset the controller the burner would
    fire right up no problem.  I figured it might need a cleaning and a new
    nozzle, and so did the yearly maintenance.  I also sharpened and
    regapped the electrodes which were a tad worn, and inspected 
    everything.  A day later it kicked out, so I bled the one pipe
    oil feed line for a long time thinking that the new filter probably
    put an extra air bubble in the line that I didn't get before.
    Sure enough I did purge a good bubble from the oil line.  Hot
    water again!  Burner ran great for two weeks then kicked out again.
    Now I'm not too annoyed because it's summer, but this is getting
    a little old now.  The burner sneers at me - I accept the challenge.
    
    Time for some troubleshooting.  I looked in the combustion chamber
    before resetting the controller - no noticable oil accumulation.
    But the thing could have kicked out the previous night based on the
    water temperature in the boiler.  Got an ohmmeter out and checked 
    the CAD flame sensor cell.  High resistance when dark and very 
    low resistance in the light - so it is probably not a suspect in 
    shutting the burner down.  Closed the peep hole and reset the 
    controller.  This time I got no fire - great!  Finally caught it 
    in the act.  I let it go for 5 seconds and shut it down.  
    Looked in the peep hole again and saw a circular oil ring
    on the fire wall.  My new nozzle and the oil pump are apparently
    working fine.  Must be no spark or it would light off.  I shut the
    oil feed line and remove the ignition transformer srews so that it
    flops over on it's hinges backwards.  I shove a screw into one of
    the contact springs to form a 3/8" gap with the other contact spring
    and momentarily turn on the furnace.  No spark.  Hmmm.  Just for kicks
    I flop the thing back so that it is nearly at it's normal operating
    angle and try again - SPARK!  I have an intermittent ignition
    transformer.  Put the thing back on and the burner lights off.
    Make some phone calls to locate a new one.  McNally in Worc,MA has one
    but that's a hike.  Everyone showers, thing kicks out again.
    Reset controller and get no flame.  So I whack the ignition transformer
    good with a mallet and presto! Burner lights off.
    
    The preferred replacement now is an electronic ignition unit.
    Instead of a 5-7LB hunk of iron and copper, this little gem weighs
    only a few onces.  It produces a higher voltage and more current
    than the old fashioned iron, and is said to be more reliable.  I'm
    thinking it's a high frequency switching supply, but after installation
    I fire up the burner (which lights right up) and there is now a very
    audible and powerful low frequency arcing noise.  Wish I could see
    _that_ spark.  Sounds like Dr. Frankenstein is working in there.
    
    Well, $51.98 and a little of my time over the course of a month 
    or two got that burner happy again.  If I had called this
    one in (a last resort - this was a personal vendetta) it would 
    have cost me a cleaning trip, and probably at _least_ one service 
    call so I'm feeling like I'm ahead - plus it's fun to learn and 
    get dirty!
    
    Made peace with my burner,
    
       Jim D.
    
    PS - Anyone interested in servicing their oil burner should become
         extremely familiar with the proper safety procedures, etc, etc, etc...

    >Note 88.418 by LEDDEV::DELMONICO "Jim
    
    good note jim. interesting that the tranformers have changed....
    
    i'm still waiting... can anyone that has had a fresh air source
    run to the burner, give me some details on it.
    i'm ready to just run a 4 inch abs pipe from a cut hole 
    in the header down the wall and over to the burner.
    
    i just wonder if the size is is large enough air supply.
    i'm getting ready to put a wall around the furnace, and
    probaly also put a couple louvered doors in front of it
    for service and a backup air supply...
    
    jim

    
    
    Could anyone give me an estimate of what a controller unit would retail
    for?  I was just charged $189.00 for the part; labor not included.
    I thought this seemed like a lot of money.
    
    ems

    RE: .-1
    
    Depending upon the manufacturer, the cost of $189 is not out of line. 
    Where the manufacturers get you is that the actual problem is more than
    likely a $.20 part.  Only the entire unit is available though...
    
    Dan (been there)
    

I had one replaced on our oil burner last year. No charge because we were on
service contract. 

Steve B.

    Thanks, Dan.
    
    The brand name on the controller unit (another name is the stack
    controller??) is Honeywell.  So, only a small part within the
    controller probably failed, but you have to replace the whole
    part.  That hurts.
    
    Between service contracts, replacing flow valves or whatever they
    are called, expansion tank, controllers, added outside cold air
    flow for better combustion, etc. etc. etc.  PLUS the higher
    oil price/gal. you have to pay becuase of the service contract;
    I am beginning to wonder, if it is cheaper to heat by electric
    (assuming that you have an energy efficient house and no more
    that 1200 sq. ft. of living space), than to heat by oil.  I 
    don't see oil heat as any bargain with all the maintenance
    factored in.
    
    Eleanor
    
    Eleanor

the equipment for electric heat costs less than the equipment for oil heat.
that is why contractors build units with electric heat.
most people that have electric heat once will never do it again.
with some DIY, the average maintenance cost for oil heat is quite low.
with a service contract the total cost per year is still much lower than 
for electric heat.
if the insulation is good enough to make electric heat competitive,
then you could heat the place with a candle.

    
    My MIL pays up to $400 per month to electric heat a 10-room colonial with 
    about half the rooms turned down to about 50. That's outrageous.
    Electric heat was a way for cheapo builders to cheap out on heating system
    installation costs but really stung people after electricity costs went
    up. Show me a house that was built with electric heat, and I'll bet the
    whole house was cheaply built.     
    
    Steve B. 

    re:
    
    > Show me a house that was built with electric heat, and I'll bet the
    > whole house was cheaply built.
    
    	It depends on when the house was built. Years ago, electricity was 
    thought to be something that would cost next to nothing when lots of
    nuclear plants came on-line. Since those have not worked out, either
    did the electric heat strategy.
    
    	Ray
    	

    
    Thanks for all the input.  I guess I will stay with oil heat.
    
    I wonder if, in time, electric rates will go down due with
    deregulation?
    
    
    ems

>             -< Will electricity ever be competitive with gas/oil >-

Very unlikely.  Producing electricity from combustion is about 40% efficient,
50% tops with the latest high-tech gas turbines.  There is wastage getting that
energy from the power plant to you as well.  Oil and gas furnaces are often
over 90% efficient at producing useful heat nowadays.

    Interesting point, but the 90% efficiency figure for a home furnace
    isn't really a valid comparison point since it doesn't include
    the following:
    	1) Electricity used by the furnace (quite a bit too!) to
    	   run blowers and/or pumps
        2) Transportation of fuel.
    	3) Difference in rates for residential vs. high-volume customers
    	4) possible generation power sources other than oil or gas.

Good points, however:

>    	1) Electricity used by the furnace (quite a bit too!) to
>    	   run blowers and/or pumps

My furnace runs off 120V and a 15A breaker, which can draw an absolute max
of 1800W or about 6140 BTU/hr max.  The actual draw is certainly less.  This
is for a 100,000 BTU/hr boiler, so an absolute max of a little over 6%.

>        2) Transportation of fuel.

Transportation of energy in the form of oil or gas in a pipeline is actually
less wasteful of energy than transporting the same energy as electricity in
power lines. The ride in the oil truck to your house is not likely to be that
efficient, however. 

>    	3) Difference in rates for residential vs. high-volume customers

I'll assume utilities don't sell power for less than the cost of the fuel
under any circumstance.

>    	4) possible generation power sources other than oil or gas.

Well, there's coal, cheaper per BTU than oil or gas, but not by that much. Not
environmentally friendly.  Hydro:  Cheap as heck per BTU but nearly every
developable megawatt in the US has been developed, most of what haven't
are unlikely to be for environmental reasons.  Nuclear: We won't be seeing any
more fission plants, fusion is still a thing of the future (assuming the anti
nuke crowd doesn't decide to fight them)  Solar, wind, etc.  Unlikely to be a
significant contributor anytime soon. 

>>    	1) Electricity used by the furnace (quite a bit too!) to
>>    	   run blowers and/or pumps
> My furnace runs off 120V and a 15A breaker, which can draw an absolute max
> of 1800W or about 6140 BTU/hr max.  The actual draw is certainly less.  This
> is for a 100,000 BTU/hr boiler, so an absolute max of a little over 6%.

	I'm confused, your furnace (ie. a FHA system) has a boiler (ie.
	a FHW or Steam system)?  And that BTU rating you gave, is that
	input or output?
	
	Electricity is a big cost in heating my home.  I have a FHW system
	with oil as the fuel.  During the heating system my heating bill
	can go up more than 50% (this winter has been less, but it's been
	a mild winter, and I've kept the temp. at 55F all winter except
	on weekends when I crank it to 60F), and that's to run the blower
	(on the burner, one disadvantage of oil over gas) and the circulator
	pumps.  And mines on a 15A breaker also fwiw :-)

	Of course I live in NH where electric rates are some of the highest
	in the country (gotta pay for those cost overruns of Seabrook, etc
	thanks to the anti-nuke protesters).

>	I'm confused, your furnace (ie. a FHA system) has a boiler (ie.
>	a FHW or Steam system)?  And that BTU rating you gave, is that
>	input or output?

Sorry, I meant boiler (FHW system).  I'll have to check if the 100K BTU is
input or output, I just remember that rating and that the yellow tag says
it has an 86% efficiency rating.

For whatever it's worth, an 1800 watt electric anything costs 18�/hr to run
if electric rates are 10�/kWh.  Multiply by appropiate price ratio to
account for Seabrook.

-Mike

    Be careful about attributing any increase in your electric bill during
    winter to your heating system...
    
    You use more lighting (those darned shorter days)
    
    you may do more cooking (can't use the charcoal grill at easily, those
    long-simmered stews and those baked goods sure do taste swell, etc)
    
    you may watch more TV (a stroll through the neighborhood isn't quite as
    enticing when there is half an inch of ice on everything)
    
    My heating system uses 375w (measured) when the whole thing is going
    full tilt (propane FHW); but I still use more kWh/mo during
    nov-mar than I do during apr-jun and sep-oct.. (info courtesy of the
    cute little graph on my electric bill..)
    
    
    ...tom

>     Be careful about attributing any increase in your electric bill during
>     winter to your heating system...
>     
>     You use more lighting (those darned shorter days)

	not me.  all year round i wake in daylight.  and all year round
	i get home when it's usuaully time to turn a light on (except
	for sat/sun).  I also don't use much lighting (none when I'm not
	home, and one 75 watt bulb when I am).  and the light for the
	driveway is one with a motion sensor and only comes on for 5 mins.

	come to think of it, I actually use more lighting (and power tools)
	in the non-heating seasons as I've been doing home renovations for
	the last 3-4 years, and since the bulk of it ends up being in
	unheated areas (major renovations have required I remove the
	baseboard heat in the room(s) i'm renovating), I'm not doing
	much work on it.

>     you may do more cooking (can't use the charcoal grill at easily, those
>     long-simmered stews and those baked goods sure do taste swell, etc)

	I'm a bachelor (if you didn't guess already from the info above :-).
	I do have an electric stove (good guess), but my cooking habits
	haven't changed much season to season the last several years
	(home renovations).

>     you may watch more TV (a stroll through the neighborhood isn't quite as
>     enticing when there is half an inch of ice on everything)

	well you do have something there, i may actually be watching the
	TV when I'm not working on the renovations in the winter, but
	the TV is usually on in the background (gotta love CNN HN, you
	can get all the news even when you aren't paying attention thanks
	to it being repeated over and over) when I am working on the
	renovations.

	now you can see why in my case why my electric bill during the
	heating season can jump 50%.  ie. because I don't use much
	electricity when you exclude the electricity to run the heating
	system.  so on a percentage basis it's probably higher than
	for most people.  however even during the heating season my
	electric usage (including to run the heating system) is probably
	less than for most people in the non-heating season.

	I'm not home, but i could tell you how many hours the circulator
	pump for my baseboard heat (I have a 2nd circulator for the
	indirect hot water heater that runs as a separate zone) has
	run this winter as my hunter thermostat keeps track of the
	number of hours it has called for heat (but it can't tell me
	how many hours the blower on the burner has run which I would
	really like to keep track of, guess i could wire in a clock
	if i was motivated enough).

	it most definitly has been a mild winter though, and keeping
	the thermostat set low has really helped as well.  I haven't
	had my oil tank (275 gallon capacity) filled since Oct. I believe
	(I am running the tank below 1/8th right now however, which is
	lower than I've ever let it get before, being near the end of
	the heating season, I want to see how low the oil gauge can go
	to so that if next season it gets below 1/8th in the middle
	of the winter, I'll know how much of an emergency it is).
	I also don't believe it hurts that my new upstairs tenants are
	a young unmarried couple with holes in their pockets.  ie. they
	keep their heat on pretty high (low-70's I believe, I've only
	had to go up there once this winter).  so loss due to convection
	through the ceiling (and floor, since their boiler is in the
	basement, and it runs often, heat loss off their boiler & pipes
	have kept the cellar relatively mild this winter compared to
	in the past).