Conference 7.286::massachusetts

        re:180   I consider this to be absolute bull.The nature conservency,
    audubon society, sierra club, and the government in general dwarf the
    contributions made by hunter/fisherman. Show some stats if you have
    them. But remember that every group in the world could show stats to
    back up their cause. Even private landowners holding onto large tracts of 
    land holding off developers for the sake of the land are doing more than 
    license purchasers.
                 Hunter saftey.. I learned to stay out of the woods unless
    I wore hunter orange during hunting season. The vast majority of
    hunters are cosceintious and use their heads. But there are a great
    many that shoot at so much as a bush rustling.. 
                 A lot of this debate reminds me of the hysteria after prop
    2 1/2 passed.. Think about it.
                 I've been far too busy to enter replies.. Till today. On
    my mini farm in New Braintree I know the inherent risk of having small
    livestock... It's a risk you take it was only a hobby.. Had I become
    more serious about protecting my critters I'd have built better
    enclosures etc.. Passing of question 1 wouldn't change things one iota.
    Why?? There's more of a balance there. Coyotes do tend to keep some of
    the pests down for the produce growers.. Ask any farmer with a couple
    hundred acres of corn in the field what happens when there aren't any 
    coyotes around.. The occasional rogue that become bold and kills larger
    livestock should be dealt with. Just like people they do have
    presonalities and tend to do their best to avoid man. 
                 I don't nor have I ever when fishing considered myself a
    steward of nature.. Fact is I "ALWAYS" end up taking more garbage and
    tangled fishing line home from "ALL" places I've ever fished at. Wish
    we could start fining some of these slobs.. Tangled line can entrap all
    manner of wildlife...
                 Beaver causing coliform.. That's one I read way back..
    Where's the coliform in Boston harbor come from?? More seriously
    though.. In the wild most fly fisherman love to find beaver pinds.
    Often great trout fishing. It attracts all manner of other wildlife
    great blue heron, deer, predators... Then after the dam is abandoned
    and the stream returns a meadow takes it's place. When they're a
    nuisance ie: flooding homes or roads then they should be dealt with.
                     
    
              ttfn,
    
    bob

>    Reading more on their history, they've done some good, and also been
>    involved in extremism, which I categorically feel is bad (despite Tom's
>    logic that "everyone is an extremist").  

No, I said "(if) everyone is a centrist, everyone ELSE is an extremist."

Gotta keep these isms straight, Jim.

- tom]

    .192                              
    
         You consider this to be absolute bull. The Nature Conserancy,
    Audobon Society, Sierra Club and the goverment in general dwarf the
    contributions made by hunter/fisherman. Even private landowners holding
    onto large tracts of land holding off developers for the sake of the
    land are doing more than license purchasers.
    
    Wow! You really think that. Then you show me.....I've been in this from
    the beginning surfing the web for all the non believers. Why don't you
    prove me wrong. Especially that last line.....Then again, why bother!
    You already threw in the disclaimer of every group in the world showing
    stats to back up their cause......So I guess your right......Why
    bother....
    
    Also, where does the Coliform come from in Boston Harbor? It sure ain't
    Beavers.....I wasn't quite sure if that was sarcasm or not so here you
    go.......
    
    Coliform bacteria are mostly nonpathogenic. They are found naturally in
    the intestines of "warm-blooded animals"-Including Humans.The
    concentration of Coliform bacteria in water is used as an estimate of
    the concentration of raw sewage. This in turn is used to estimate the
    likelihood of contacting diseases from water.If drinking water is found
    to have concentrations of four or more coliform bacteria per 100 ml
    of water, corrective action is required.
    
    If you plan on going fly fishing on 119 where the Beavers are making
    dams. Don't Drink the Water!!!!!!Then again if you enjoy having your
    intestines turned inside out......
    
    Bob M.

ditto what Bob said,

re: WRKSYS::BROWER

>I consider this to be absolute bull.The nature conservency,
>    audubon society, sierra club, and the government in general dwarf the
>    contributions made by hunter/fisherman.

why don't YOU show US some stats...

I've heard several people in this string say they doubt our claims, but not one
has come back with anything to disprove them...  Not one...

Why should I show you stats when you'll tell me they have somehow been doctored.

You do some homework of your own.

regarding the rest of your note, I really don't disagree...  sure there are some 
bad apples in every group...  I walk thru the woods and pick up trash whenever I
come across it...  Can I assume it's a Hikers?  I do consider myself a steward, 
and I don't think twice about picking up trash... long as I have the means to
carry it out, otherwise i'll grab it on another trip out.  I hunt with some
young hunters in VT, and try to instill this in them.  I think we all have to do
it.  Sure there are slobs, it's up to us to pass the word and bring it up when
you see it happening.

You are correct regarding the small farm issue, to some extent...  My in-laws
own a small farm, 30+ sheep, as well as some chickens, etc...  they have
electric fences, a couple of border collies and still have problems with
coyotes, and now bobcats.  To any livestock farmer, coyotes are a problem. 
To a
produce farmer, their a godsend.  I hunt on both a produce farm in Mass, and a
Livestock farm in VT.  Each place has a different outlook on coyotes.

Fra

This article reprinted from the Worcester Telegram and Gazette 1-20-97

CHANGES URGED AFTER DOG INCIDENT IN GRAFTON.

By Jim Bodor, staff writer

GRAFTON, The attack so startled Elizabeth E. Wright that she cannot, even 2
weeks later, push it from her mind.  It was about 2:30 PM Thursday when Wright
heard a commotion in front of her Cross Street home.

Outside she saw 3 stray dogs - a German Shepherd mix, a scraggly yello labrador
retriever and a smaller, nondescript brown dog - attacking a doe in the street. 
The dogs tore off the deer's right front leg, according to Wright, her neighbors
and police.They said the dogs attacked the doe like a pack of wolves, one moving
in from the front while the other 2 leaped onto the deer from behind.

The attack moved fromt he street, into the driveway at 24 Cross St., then
continued in a nearby backyard, ending only when Wrights daughter and a neighbor
scared off the dogs.

Police arrived...



unbelievable... theres a leash law in Grafton...  

PETA people would think this was fantastic...  they'd prefer to see this
"natural" occurance keep the numbers in balance (?) over hunting...

the article goes on further but I don't have time to finish typing it out...

FWIW...

Fra

    
    	See?  If steel traps were still legal those dogs might've gotten
    	caught in them and bled to death and wouldn't have even had a
    	chance to attack the deer!!
    
    	Bring back steel traps!!
    

wow, is that what you got from reading that note?  Seriously though, you know
you brought up a good point, let the dogs get caught in one, get maimed and then
we can have the owner crying how their poor little dog lost a leg in those god
awful traps.  

Better yet,  obey the law and leash your dog...  but hey, that would be far too
much trouble, and god knows that little muffy would never do such a cruel thing
as tear apart some poor pregnant doe...  The owners are probably the same people
who vote yes on traps, and at the same time let their dogs free roam to do
this...  I mean were not talking about dogs who are starving here and doing this
for a meal, their doing this for play.

those poor dogs... and their irresponsible owners...  lets sue the fish and wild
life for letting deer run around to tease the poor dogs... 

>I mean were not talking about dogs who are starving here and doing this
>for a meal, their doing this for play.

Yep, they had likely been chasing that deer all afternoon.  As it tired,
the could get closer and may have nipped at its legs to get it running
again.  the game is only fun when the deer runs.

Eventually it tires to where the nips have to get rougher...and it leads
to tearing out the achilles tendon or an open wound on then hind end.
The dogs may actually rip it up a little before they tire of this
boring game....probably complaining to eachother than they just dont
make deer like they used to.

this has occured to my sheep.
bob

        Steel traps for roaving packs of domesticated dogs?! No way! Out in 
    the boonies where I used to live dogs running down sheep and deer are 
    destroyed when caught in the act. Fining the F+G I know you're joking 
    wouldn't work. Fining irresponsible dog owners might help. 
        A neighbors dog once started chowing down on my chickens. The owner 
    was openly defiant and denied that his nice dog could ever do such a 
    thing. Truth is re:199 is spot on it's the thrill of the chase but a 
    slow and agonizing death for animal being chased.
    
    bob

re.200

> Steel traps for roaving packs of domesticated dogs?! No way!
> Fining the F+G I know you're joking wouldn't work.

I was being sarcastic...

the thing with dogs chaseing deer, is that once they've gotten the taste of
blood they will never stop doing it.

Fra

ps, I still find it amazing how people will make wild statements about how
things are run negligently, how we should stop some forms of inhumane hunting,
but offer no facts, no details or any constructive input on how this should be
corrected.

>> ps, I still find it amazing how people will make wild statements about how
>> things are run negligently

I searched and could find not a single statement where anybody said anything
was being run negligently.

Voting to remove the licensing requirement for F&W board members has absolutely
nothing (nada, zip, zilch, zero) to do with whether the board has been doing a
good job or not.  Please refrain from asking to back up something they never
said.

I know you are of the opinion that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," so
logically if people voted to fix something, it must be broken, but what we
believe was broken was fairness in the appointing process, not the job being
done by the board.  Personally, I have no basis whatsoever to judge whether the
board is doing a good job, but I think it is morally corrupt to require a
majority of sportsmen on the board that oversees hunting and fishing. I'd
rather see a requirement that five of seven *not* have had sporting licenses
*ever*, but that wouldn't be fair now, would it?

>> how we should stop some forms of inhumane hunting,
>> but offer no facts, no details or any constructive input on how this should be
>> corrected.

What facts are you looking for?  If something is viewed as inhumane, and people
vote to make it illegal, isn't that enough?  Or do you need proof that
something is inhumane?  On what basis shall we assess this?

There are methods still available for remedying animal problems.  Use them. 
Request permits to use leghold traps, get the state to trap for you, use the
allowed types of traps, or get rid of the animals without traps.  Go ahead and
seek damages if the bureaucracy doesn't come through for you.  Or sponsor
legislation to get Q1 overturned.

See you in the voting booth.

						Brian

    
    Yesterday's Worcester Telegram had 2 diff articles that sort of loosely
    relate to this note.
    
    Blurb #1 - Bottom front cover of people section. Alicia Silverstone -
    a PETA spokeswoman just released a 30 second spot where she urges high
    schools and high school students in the Beverly Hills area to not 
    use animals for dissection in Biology. She mentions worms,
    frogs, and a couple of other animals , licks a frog to show how much
    she loves them, and then says that "Biology should be the study of
    life, not death."
    
    
     Article # 2 - Buried in the back of the local news section. An article
    on the Mass deer population. Population is on the rise and the F&G is
    going to try to come up with some creative, cost effective ways to keep
    it from getting to the point of over population. One approach is to
    hire sharpshooters to thin down the herd. They don't wan't to do this,
    yet, as it costs money. Utilizing local hunters via extending seasons
    and or bag limits costs nothing and accomplishes the same result.
    
    Bob
     

    >Utilizing local hunters via extending seasons and or bag limits costs
    >nothing and accomplishes the same result.
    
    I doubt if there is any relationship between the deer population rising
    and the ban on trapping (at least this soon).  
    
    But it occurs to me that if one workaround to the problem of banning
    traps is that hunting seasons are lengthened and bag limits are
    increased, wouldnt' the hunters be the beneficiaries?
    
    jeb
    

RE:DECCXL::WIBECAN

There was mention made regarding the board...

>    "I know you think you all are doing a great job, but I *respectfully*
>    disagree and would like to be able to get others I agree with on the
>    board"

there was also mention made regarding addititional bans, should this particular
person ever be on the board.

re: >   "I don't know what to tell you.  I don't like the government infringing
>    on things any more than you.  But I also don't think its too much to
>    ask to:
>    
>      1) ban *some* forms of inhumane hunting

I'm not talking about trapping any longer, and if you had read the entire string
you would have realized that... in fact in one of my notes, I made mention that
this was a moot point as the requirements for licenses etc were not longer
there.  what myself and the other noters were discussing was "additional"
changes that this person would like to see...  I wanted to know what these
additional forms of inhumane hunting were...  is that a problem???

If the person makes mention that they think the board wasn't well run, I don't
think it's alot to ask why they believe this to be true... it one this to say
it's not fair to be able to get on a board and another to say it's not well run.
I wanted to know how it was not run well...

I'll tell you what...

it seriously sounds like we need another note to discuss F&W issues...

people in here think everything we say goes back to the trapping issue.

re:  
    I doubt if there is any relationship between the deer population rising
    and the ban on trapping (at least this soon).

These are 2 completely different issues.

This string has gone from a question 1 issue, to people discussing the future of
hunting/fishing in mass.  Due mainly to a chance for anti's getting on the Board
now that the requirements have changed.

someone said that "hunting could be banned" and this was where that discussion
has gone... it no longer is about trapping.

FWIW...

    .204
    
    It is and has been illegal to trap Whitetail Deer in Massachusetts as
    well as the rest of the U.S. for a long time now. The trapping portion
    of the ban has no effect at all on Whitetail Deer....Aside from maybe
    an increased pressure from the local Coyote residents........
    
    If you were to say lenghthen the firearms season on Coyotes to make
    up for the shortcomings of the new ban on trapping I would also have
    to say that the effect is also nill. Means other than traps are just
    not effective. Also, a hide with a hole in it loses it's value.
    
    You see, the quote from the paper hit the nail on the head. "Utilizing
    local hunters via extending seasons and or bag limits costs nothing
    and accomplishes the same results". Well, you had a local trapping
    organization which is basically defunct now.
    
    So the way I see it we can all belly up to the bar, lick a toad and
    pay up......
    
    I sure hope that frog had his shots!!!!\
    Bob M.

    
    	I've had all of MY shots ... so Alicia can lick me all she wants.
    

    
    	Extending the hunting season or increasing bag limits won't thin
    the deer as much as people think it will. There are plenty of
    towns/cities in Mass that are closed to hunting, or require land
    owners permission. I would like to see the F&W department to work with
    these closed towns to open them up a little more. If they are worried
    about gun noise or getting shot in the woods. Open them up to bow
    hunting only. I can not remember ever reading about someone getting
    hit with an arrow, while walking in the woods. If they want to make it
    even safer, require bow hunters to use a tree stand. Since it increases
    a bow hunters field of vision.
    
    Ron

    >>    Extending the hunting season or increasing bag limits won't thin   
    >>the deer as much as people think it will. There are plenty of
    
    
      Actually I think the article mentioned that in states such as 
    PA where they allow 3 does per hunter, the pop was still rising 2 percent
    a year...
    
    One thing that the Mass F&G was looking at was getting hunters in the
    area where it needs thinning the most. I don't know how they plan to do
    this though.
    
     In the past most of the F&G depts herd figures were calculated via
    check in stations for deer during hunting season. This year they also
    decided to implore another method (which cost money) which invloved
    flushing out the deer with helicoptors, netting them, and putting radio 
    collars on them. They will then use these deer to help track the movement 
    of herds, etc.
    
     My tie in for the 2 articles was that we have PETA (on the front page)
    dealing with dissecting frogs and worms in the class room. (will
    question # 1 next year be - ban dissection of worms in the
    classroom ?) and we have the F&G department, buried in the back of the 
    paper dealing with how to proactively keep the deer herd at a healthy 
    population. I saw both articles in a matter of minutes and I just thought 
    that it was interesting that even after question 1 was finished here in 
    Ma, PETA was rolling along on more fronts in more areas - and the Mass 
    F&G dept was also trying to do their thing.
    
    Bob

    
    I have been looking on the Internet for some hard numbers concerning
    how much "sportsmen" contribute to land protection efforts in 
    Massachusetts but could only come up with the following:
    
      Habitat and Land Protection Program (Part of Dept of Fisheries,
      Wildlife, and Evironmental Law Enforcement)
    
      This program acquires land to provide access to the lands and
      waters of the Commonwealth and has acquired in excess of 80,000
      acres.
    
      "Funding for the program comes from two sources. The primary
       funding mechanism is the Commonwealths open space bond
       authorization. The other source is revenue from the Land
       Stamp program. Under this program each individual who buys
       a hunting, fishing or trapping license in Massachusetts pays
       $5 dollars into the Land stamp fund..."
    
    
    As non-hunter let me say "thanks" to all the contributing sportsmen!
    
    As a hiker and outdoor enthusiast I would gladly pay an "access" fee
    for the privilege of hiking on Massachusetts public lands.
                                                 

    RE: .221
    
    As an aside to the current topic...  The "Land Stamp Program" ($5.00
    per hunting/fishing/trapping license) was proposed (and supported)
    by sportsmen.  This came about because, during the lean Dukakis
    years, the state was not buying any land to protect open spaces.
    
    To sum things up one legislator said to me, concerning sportsmen
    (paraphasing):
    
       You don't ask for much, other than to be left alone.  And when
       you do ask for something, you are willing to pay for it.  Every
       other group that comes here wants more and more, and want others
       to pay for it.  You are a great organization and model to the
       community.
    
    Many would be quick to say this proposal was self-serving, and it
    is/was to some extent, but it also benifits everyone.  It also shows
    that sportsmen, in general, are willing to fund their activities,
    and are not looking for funding. 
     
    Roger