Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Lori, 
    
    We got a much smaller train for Steven and he never got into it at
    all.  But he had never showed much interest in trains when he saw
    them in the stores, either, so I wasn't very surprised.  I'd say
    if he's never shown an interest in trains it's probably risky.
    
    I did have a question about your saying you wanted to get him
    something special "from Santa".  Was this just a manner of
    speaking, or do you really want him to think the present's from
    Santa rather than from parents who love him and wanted to get
    something special for him that he'd enjoy a lot?  I don't mean to
    imply a criticism, it's just a perspective that never occured to
    me before and I was wondering why you felt that way.  
    
    --bonnie

    Lori,
    
    Certainly Matt is the "right" age for Brio trains.  We gave a starter
    set for a one-year old's birthday (too young but the parents wanted
    to start a collection) and a couple of the older boys (2-4years) at
    the party went absolutely nuts when the baby opened the Brios.   So,
    I do see a lot of potential enjoyment in that age group.  
    
    However, I have to  agree with Bonnie that if he hasn't shown any
    interest in them, then it's pretty risky - especially considering 
    the cost!   For what its worth, Early Learning Centre in Greendale
    Mall, Worcester has a real nice Brio setup (~$400!) if you want to 
    take Matt for a trial run.....
    
    As far as toting the gifts halfway across the continent, you might
    want to consider having a second Christmas when you get home (or
    "gee, look's like Santa was *here* while we were at Grandma's!")
    This is what we're going to do.
    
    If you'd like ideas for "special" gifts other than Brio, I'll tell
    you what Santa is getting for Jason: a Fisher-Price Power Workshop and  
    a Little Tikes Semi-loader.   (Mom and Dad are getting him some more
    Brio!)
    
    Carol
     

    Most stores that sell Brio, have it set up in the store.
    I do recommend you take your son to the store to see
    if he's interested.
    
    Steven received a starter set as a gift when he was born.
    I told my inlaws that he is "collecting Brio trains" so
    they know what to get him (if they don't know what else
    to buy).  Santa is also getting Steven a Brio this year
    and hopefully by the time he's old enough, he'll have
    a large assortment.
    
    BTW: The Learning Express at the Lechmere Mall (Framingham)
         gives you a card and notes the price of each set you
         buy.  They take the average price of 12 purchases and
         give you the total of the avg. amount off of your 13th
         purchase.
    
    Each time I've shopped for Brio with Steven, he HAS to stop
    and play with the set in the store!  He's only 13 mos.
    and I'm hoping he will still like it when he's alittle
    older, it is a big investment.  The little ones at his
    birthday party also loved his Brio!
    
    I'm eager to hear from others out there with Brio,
    how *DO* your kids like it?
    
	thanks, Linda
    
                     

    Out of curiosity, Linda, does Steven play with his Brios yet?
    Jason is only interested in breaking the tracks apart and 
    playing with the box so far!!
    
    Carol

    Carol,
    
    I have them put away.  He did want me to take his new one
    (from Santa) out of the box but I wouldn't, so he carried
    the box around for awhile.
    
    By Christmas he will have 4 sets, so I think I will let
    him try them out then, although I think he will be at
    least 2 before he can actually "play" with them.  
    Personally, I'm dying to play with them!
    
    Linda

Well, now I know what you are all talking about!  We went to the mall this
weekend and 2 weekends ago, and Evan once again played with the Brio trains,
only this time we looked to see how much they cost so I found out this is
"Brio".  For others of you who have also been confused: they are the small
wooden trains with magnets to couple the cars together.  The tracks are all
wood and they are not as "realistic" looking as some train sets, but they
are easy to use and have many pieces.

Evan is 2 1/2 and loves them.

Of course, he loves trains in general.  He really enjoyed the bridge on the
Brio set 2 weeks ago.  He would open the red bars, then pull the train through,
the close the bars behind it.  He kept doing this over and over. 

However, it was like 10-15 bucks just for a little bitty piece of this set!!!
I can't even imagine spending so much!  I would love to find a reasonably 
inexpensive train for about a year from now, that I can put up high to circle
his room (above his door and closet).  If he is still into trains then, it 
would be my ideal gift for his 4th (or so) birthday, and he could flip a 
switch to get it to run or stop.  I would set up little houses or something
so occasionally it would disappear from sight.  Of course, the Brio trains
can be used by much younger ages, and can be played with by hand, with minimal
trouble because of the magnets.  But, my!  They're expensive!

        Carol

>But do kids really go
>for them?  They don't do anything (not electric), so kids have to push them
>around the track.  

	Funny, the fact that they "don't do anything" and that kids 
	"have to push them around the track" is, to me, one
	of the attractive features.  In order to play with them, the
	kid has to DO something, and not just sit there and watch.  The
	experience that I have with my kids (my son especially) is that
	the things he watches, but does not interact with -- like most 
	motorized stuff -- get played with a LOT at first, but start 
	collecting dust New Year's day or so.   

>Would this be appropriate for a 2� yr old?  Would he be
>bored with it by the time he reaches 4?

	For us it was a bit early.  Obviously, other people have different 
	experiences.  I think that we started on Brios when Gary was three 
	or even four.  And it bothered us that they didn't get a lot of use 
	for a while.  Gary is now seven and still plays with them, and "more 
	Brio parts" is on his Christmas list.  Part of the fun is assembling 
	the track pieces into different configurations, which involves skills 
	similar to putting together puzzles.

	Based on our experience, if you do get Brios, and they don't 
	get much use at first, DON'T put them away.  Keep them out and
	available.  Your child WILL play with them.  Remember that the
	"for children ages 3 - 8" type of statements are like "children
	should be potty trained by age ___".

A comment on a trike -- If you get a good one (not one of the plastic ones) 
they can be assembled, then disassembled for transit.  If you have a paved 
driveway, you have to clear it anyway, so it may get more use than you think.  
Also, if you happen to have a garage it can get used there also.  Just make 
sure that he's big enough, or that it adjusts to his size.

Even better than disassembly is .2's suggestion of celebrating at home.  We 
often travel about three hours for Christmas -- but we make sure that we have 
at least SOME of it at (our) home, even if it means driving on Christmas day 
(no traffic!), celebrating before or after, or celebrating more than once.  
Just be careful of "Christmas overload".

Clay

    re: cost of Brios
    I have seen look-alikes for 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of Brio in the Lillian
    Vernon catalog.   The description says they fit with Brios.
    
    re: .6
    Carol, what a wonderful idea to have the train running around the 
    ceiling line!  Mind if I borrow it?   Actually, I've seen this in
    a couple of bars and it never struck me to do it in a child's room.
    There is a bar near Killington, Vt. called Casey's Caboose that 
    has a train that runs around the ceiling line....you have to throw
    coins at a little monkey (or something) and get it to tip which 
    activates the train.  Quite clever!
    
    Carol

Thanks for the suggestions of taking him to an Early Learning Center to let
him try out the Brio train.  I think I'll do that.

RE: .1  Bonnie, I don't want to get into a discussion on the pros/cons of
 having your child believe in Santa, or should you/shouldn't you let your
 child believe Santa will reward good children, etc.  But, I believed in
 Santa as a child. It made Christmas more magical for me, and me and my
 spouse want Matt to believe in Santa.  Although I don't believe in using
 Santa to stop certain behavior "Santa better not see you doing that", Matt
 has been SUCH a good boy I'd like to say "You must've been awfully good for
 Santa to bring you something so nice."  Some parents probably don't see any
 difference in the two, and I do NOT want to debate that.

 As for wanting a special gift to be from Santa - this is the 1st year Matt
 has really gotten into the Christmas thing.  He is awed by Santa.  He's too
 shy to speak to Santa, but I think he believes that Santa is magical.  So
 I want Santa to get him something special this year.  That doesn't mean Mom
 and Dad, who love him very much, can't/won't get him something special, too,
 does it???

� �ori �

    Just a couple of comments on Brio quality - it's excellent. Our
    trains have been abused quite a bit over the last few months and
    have stood up beautifully. Also, the magnets are rounded so that
    when the train goes up an incline, the link is not lost from one
    car to the next. Some of the imitations have squared-off magnets
    that do not maintain their links as well. 
    
    This sort of detail makes me feel they're worth the extra $$. Maybe 
    the stuff will last through several kids. 
    
    Lucy
    
    PS - My son just turned 3 and is just beginning to really enjoy his
    train stuff, although he's had some of it for a year. 

    Joshua got a sort of medium sized Brio set from Grandma the Christmas
    before last, when he was about 3.25 years old. He has never played with
    them a whole lot, but will go through phases where he has them out
    constantly, and plays with them for hours on end. This'll usually last
    for about a week, and then he abandons them in favor of something else
    for a couple of months. Then the cycle begins again. Maybe as he gets
    older, he will play with them more often. We also found a table at
    Building 19 (discount/damaged goods store in MA) that had some very
    Brio looking magnet cars for .10 a piece! Yes, some had tiny paint
    chips, and some had large magic marker writng on the bottoms, but they
    were basically in excellent shape. I think we bought about 25 or 30 of
    them. They only had two different styles, but Josh loves building super
    duper long strings of cars, or having two different strings going at
    once! Brio makes for very imaginative play. He often uses blocks to
    build houses, etc. by the sides of the tracks, and uses Fisher Price
    little people as railroad workers, etc. He gets very into it, when he
    is in the mood!
    
    --dave--

    I think getting the Brio train set depends upon if you want to get into
    long-term investment and whether your child will maintain interest. 
    
    My husband got Berk (shy of 2 last Xmas) the Tomy train set last year. It 
    is pretty indestructable - he's only broken off the joint of one track in
    over a year. It runs on a battery but it isn't just a watching train.
    You can stop it and load the people or logs and you can reverse it.
    
    I'm glad we didn't invest in a major train set because Berk goes
    through spurts where it gets played with till the battery dies out (and
    I've got a headache from hearing it  chug along and refuse to replace
    it) and then will leave it in its bags for weeks. We personally didn't
    have the space to store and then set up a full-blown train set, as
    wonderful as they are. Plus, Berk loves to play with all of his toys
    and really doesn't have favorites - they just have to have moving parts
    at this point. 
    
    I say evaluate which is best for the long run.  
    
    Andrea

    re: a few
    
    A number of comments have been made about the cost of the BRIO trains. 
    While I have not seen any as yet, I do make wooden toys for sale.  One
    of the important factors in making these is the type of wood that is
    used.  I will only use maple.  This tends to make the cost of the
    materials a little high.  The reason: safety.  Maple is a very dense
    fine grained wood.  For younger children, there is the possibility of
    chewing on the toy.  Maple won't splinter like many other woods.
    
    For a five car train with magnets (rounded), the material cost is about
    $7.00- $9.00 depending upon which cars are chosen.  This is material
    alone and at bulk pricing for the preformed parts (eg smoke stack and
    wheels).  I would suspect that the BRIO manufacturer can get (or make)
    the parts more cheaply than I can, so lets assume that the material
    cost is 50% of mine.  That means for a 5 car train the material cost is
    $3.50.  Add to that about an hour of people time to assemble and finish
    the toy and you are talking about $13.50 for the toy already.  I have
    yet to include the cost of the machinery etc. to make the parts and to
    market the toy.  As you can see the costs can add up very quickly.
    
    Be more concerned about the quality of the toy.  I personally am more
    concerned that the toy is safe and durable.  A toy costing $5 may last
    a year.  A toy of quality costing $15 may last a lifetime.
    
    But I ramble on...
    
    Dan

Well, I don't know about the basenoter, but you folks are certainly selling
*me* on Brio.  :-)  I will definately consider it.

About the overhead train set: I got the idea from Sears.  They had a PlayMobil
setup that went around the children's clothing area, up high.  Evan just 
stared at it.  This was last Christmas, so he was 1 3/4 at the time.  He 
would *not* leave.  I think we stood there an hour (which gave Shellie time
to shop, so it worked out).  He loved how it went out of sight around the
buildings of the "town", but then would come back.

     Carol

    When I bought my son his first set of "Brio" trains I too was
    concerned about investing in something he might not play with.
    I found a set made by "Heros" at Early Learning Center.  Its
    Brio compatible but you get more train/track for less money.
    The starter set was $35.00.  My son (3.5 yrs) also has some
    Brio and personally I prefer the Hero set, the trains are more
    colorful, the magnets are color coded so its easier for the
    younger children to learn how to attach them and the engine has
    magnets on the front and rear.  Heros are made in Germany.
    
    Good Luck,
    		Jeannie

    re: .9
    
    Thanks for explaining that, Lori.  I repeat that I did not mean my
    question to implicitly criticize your decision; it was simply a
    way of looking at the world that had not occured to me before, and
    I was interested in knowing some more about how you viewed it.
    
    --bonnie

    I, too, was wrestling with whether or not to get Brio's for Grayson,
    now 3.5 yrs.  A sure clue for me was watching him make a beeline for
    the Brio set-up in every toystore we entered, and NEVER paying any
    attention to any of the other toys in the store.  
    
    I ordered the Brio look-alike from Lillian Vernon (and am waiting for
    their arrival).  I also realized that part of what makes the Brio (or
    any train set for that matter) so much fun for Gray is its table
    set-up.  He has always enjoyed playing with cars, etc on his bed, a
    table, a chair, rather than on the floor.  SO, to insure the success of
    my modest investment, my husband plans to build a simple plywood table
    for the trains.  I suspect that the table will increase Gray's
    enjoyment immeasurably.
    
    Just an idea...
    
    Emily
    
    
    factor immeasurably.  

We got Brian a moderate size Brio set for his third birthday last June 
and he is completely in love with it.  He and his 7 year old sister 
will play with it on the floor for long periods of time.  He also 
likes looking through the catalog that came in the box to "order" the 
other pieces he would like (another armchair shopper in the making!)

Hi, Emily!  Brian like the floor just fine!  Also there is a store in
the Shrewsbury Village Mall that has them as a small discount and 
somtimes has markdowns on the sets.  I know that ours was about $10 
less than other stores.  I think its called "Jouet de Ville".

Norma

Just thought I'd let everyone know I've decided to go with the Brio train set!
We took Matt to an Early Learning Center to show him the train (there were a
bunch of kids clustered around it playing with it too!) and  he really got into
it.  But he managed to tear himself away from it to play with the Little Tykes
Workbench and Little Tykes Kitchen, too (which cost alot less, by the way!) :-)

The hard part was deciding which set(s) to buy!

I said to the cashier after forking over my credit card "I hope he likes it"
and she said "I've never met a kid who didn't."

� �ori �

    This notes been idle for over a year, but hopefully I can get some
    opinions (or at least a pointer to a more recent note).
    
    Nick (now 2yrs4 mos) has shown a lot of interest in cars, trucks and
    trains. In addition to the usual Tonka trucks & Matchbox cars, we bought 
    him a Sesame Street toy train set for this past Christmas. In hindsite, 
    a great idea in theory but not so hot in practice, since it's a windup
    train and all you can do with it is wind it up, let it run along the
    tracks until it wears out, then repeat the process...all-in-all, not a
    lot of room for imagination, so we wound up returning it.
    
    Since then, we've been to the Early Learning Center, and he's been 
    absolutely captivated by the huge Brio setup in the store, so we're
    convinced that this type of train would be better suited to him. 
    
    We priced the Brio starter set, but have also  looked at the Hero set
    and have noticed the compatible set advertised in the Lillian Vernon
    catalogs. Our initial reaction is to start him out with the Hero set,
    which will give him approx the same layout as the $50 BRIO set for
    about the price of the BRIO starter set ($25). Being imported from
    Germany, the HERO set has the  perception (at least) of quality, but
    the Lillian Vernon set seems to give you even more bang for your buck,
    at least in terms of quantity.
    
    Now for my question(s)...Does anyone out there have any first-hand
    experience with either of these two alternative sets? What are your
    thoughts/opinions regarding quality, durability, etc? 
    
    Again, all comments/pointers welcome.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Freddie
    

    In my quest to find a bargain on Brio or Brio-like trains for my son,
    I have found a very narrow window of opportunity in which to purchase Hero
    train sets, components and accessories at wholesale prices. The catch
    is that my initial order must be for a minimum of $200, and must be paid
    for when I place the order. 
    
    I'm not looking to make any money on the deal;  I'm just looking for
    enough orders to hit the $200 minimum, since what I  plan to order will
    only come to about $40.
    
    In order to avoid even the slightest chance of violating corporate
    guidelines regarding use of notesfiles, I don't think I can or should 
    post the prices here. However, if anyone is interested and wants more
    info, please send me E-mail and we'll continue as needed.
    
    Freddie