Conference moira::naturism

re all:  Let's assume that all questions are asked, and all suggestions 
offered, in a spirit of reasonable sincerity, ok?

I don't think a naturist is in a special position to advise anyone on his
relations with his wife.  We'll certainly tell you that we see nothing 
wrong with naked bodies, nor with appreciating the appearance thereof,
particularly if it's not taken in the spirit of a spectacle.  However,
how your wife feels about your visual appreciation of other women really
isn't a subject that naturists have any particular expertise on.

(To be very short about it, in my opinion the interactions amongst two 
clothed people upon encountering a beach of fully or partially nude people 
is peripheral, at best, to the subject of naturism.)

Sorry.

	-Neil

    
    I think that there should be no problem with a "look", since we're
    most all born with eyes to "look" at the world around us, including
    the other people around us, whatever their state of dress/undress.
    If your wife is secure in the knowledge you'd never "chase" anything
    you "look" at, fine, if she isn't, she should be.
    
    My wife doesn't say anything when I "look" at an attractive woman
    who passes us by, and the day I stop "looking" (with no intent to
    chase/catch) is the day I'm one or all of the following:
    
    	1. Blind ;^(
    	2. Dead  ;^( ;^(
    	3. Gay   ;^( ;^( ;^(
    
    Fred_who_enjoys_the_scenery_while_my_eyes_still_function...
    

>>>    My wife doesn't say anything when I "look" at an attractive woman
>>>    who passes us by, and the day I stop "looking" (with no intent to
>>>    chase/catch) is the day I'm one or all of the following:
>>    
>    	1. Blind ;^(
>>    	2. Dead  ;^( ;^(
>>>    	3. Gay   ;^( ;^( ;^(
    
	oh, thanks.  I always used this saying, but I forgot about #1.
    
>>    If your wife is secure in the knowledge you'd never "chase" anything
>>    you "look" at, fine, if she isn't, she should be.
    
    It's okay to window-shop when you have nothing to buy...:-):-)
    
    I don't know if we should be saying that someone "should" be thinking
    in a particular way.  People are the way they are.  I don't know if
    we should be passing judgement on people just because they were 
    brought up in a specific way.  I have a few friends who would like
    to try social nuding, but they know that their SO's would be upset
    if they went.  They try to understand those feelings.
    
    I think that we could provide examples from our own experiences to
    open opportunities for other people to enjoy the nuding experience.
    When told to do something or to be something, resistance usually
    digs in and it becomes much harder to change their mind.    
    
    
    B.
    

	I can fully understand .0's problem.  He said that my experience 
helped him, so I share it with you all.  I had exactly the same 
problem with my wife when we went to St. Maarten two years ago.  We saw 
plenty of topless women, men and women in throngs (that's what .0 meant
by "rear nude") and completely nude men and women.  My wife seemed to
have no reaction to the nude men, but reacted strongly to my seeing the
women. 

	I agree with Neil, in .8, that this is not something that 
naturists (.0's "insiders") are in a special position to address.  It is
the result of someone's hang-ups that the naturists have been able to
cast off, to their credit.  The questions asked and suggestions offered
are, indeed, sincere.  The problem is very real and bothersome to some 
of us, whose mates are highly biased.  If anything, the shoe is on the 
other foot as it is essentially an "outsiders" issue.  The naturist 
conference does provide a good forum for this discussion and, perhaps, 
it will help the naturists better understand what they have succeeded in 
escaping.

	It all started for me when I suggested that we visit every beach
around St. Maarten.  The first beach north of Dawn Beach was Bae Orient,
the CO beach.  She decided to stay in the car, while I went for a walk. 
She later went looking for me at the moment when there was a mass exodus
from Club Orient to the snack bar on the beach.  She was horrified!  I 
missed it all, being at the other end of a nearly deserted beach.  Ever 
since then, she has been disturbed by the fact that I might see similar 
sights.

	The cultural differences made little difference to me, one way 
or the other, once I "adjusted."  For my wife, her problem with it all 
was, in my estimation, based on several faulty assumptions.  I try to 
list them as I understand them or she has expressed them to me.

    1.	She assumes that because I find her body stimulating, I find all 
	bodies stimulating.  Wrong, as I am not married to any of the 
	others.  At age 45 and after 22 years (this week) of faithful 
	marriage, my *hormones* appear quite normal, at least to me.

    2.	She assumes that all men are stimulated visually, while all 
	women are stimulated intellectually/emotionally.  Therefore, I 
	was immersed in what would stimulate me.  While I agree that 
	there are gender related differences on average, I disagree that 
	either group is all this or all that.  Also, I claim that the 
	individual differences within each gender is not insignificant,
	compared to the differences in the averages.  (She tends to be 
	very "black" and "white" in her thinking, while I work in shades 
	of "gray.")

	Speaking of stimulation, I recently had a minor testicular 
problem and discovered that I now have a lovely and personable lady
doctor.  My wife's first and natural question was; "Did you get turned
on during the exam?"  No!  We joked about this being retribution for all
the years that the ladies had to put up with all male GYNs.  It was 
strictly business, with a little humor to counter any embarrassment,
just as it should have been. 

    3.	She assumes that I would not adjust to the culture shock and the 
	novelty would not wear off, as her concern only grew.  In reality, 
	it didn't take long (two encounters over five minutes) to realize 
	that head-to-toe tans are really quite boring.  It was then that 
	I realized how sexually stimulating a bright colored bathing 
	suit is!

    4.	She assumes that because I frequently approach her in a certain 
	way, I'm a "dirty old man," likely to approach others in the 
	same way.  We just have a mismatch in or drive levels, 
	*hormones*, maybe.  I haven't in 24 years (22 + dating), so why 
	would I start now?  

	Editorial:  This is where lewdity under the guise of nudity,
discussed so often in this conference, does a severe discredit to us
all.  The reprisals are not just upon those of you who can separate your
nudity from your sexuality and/or integrate the two healthily, as most
of you do.  In cases like these, the reprisals are also against the
non-participants who face those who look for any excuse to react to what
they might see at the beach. 

    5.	She assumes that all men have super strong sexual urges and 
	women don't.  I.e., a significant mismatch in sexual urge in a 
	particular direction is normal.  While I wish I had statistics 
	about this time (Ann Landers had some letters recently), I know 
	of many mismatched couples and the direction seems to be nearly 
	50/50.  If "coupling" is random, a bad assumption, it tends to 
	make be envious of the "lucky" 25%, totally lacking in
	understanding of the opposite 25% and sympathetic to the 50% I 
	and .0 are in.

	You might wonder what my position and thing was this whole time. 
Did I enjoy looking?  Sure.  I'm completely normal and enjoy beauty in 
any form.  I figure that if I don't look, I'm either dead or should be. 
I wouldn't want to think about being blind and the thought of being gay 
wouldn't even cross my mind.  I wouldn't mind if my wife decided to go 
topless, which she admitted that she had a passing temptation to try. I
wouldn't care one way or the other about going nude, in the appropriate
place.  (I am not ready to face someone there of the opposite gender I
would face regularly in a textile environment.)  I guess I would
consider my self at the perpetual "getting started" point, but will
remain a non-participant (.0's "outsider"), because my wife is far, far
from any such point. 

	BTW:  When we returned from St. Maarten, my wife complained to
the minister about what I had seen on the beach.  He simply told her
that he had the tough assignment for several years of doing beach
evangelism on the French Riveira and had seen far more than I did.  I
love it!  I couldn't have asked for a better answer! ;-) 

	Anyhow, she is now talking about a return trip to St. Maarten, 
which is encouraging.  With three of our five kids heading for college, 
it may only be a dream.  Maybe, I'll be pleasantly surprised by some 
welcomed tolerance.  Besides, I plan to spend most of my time looking at 
the fish, being a snorkel freak.

	However, I hope all this will help you naturists understand
where some of the others of us are in our personal walks and struggles. 
Perhaps, you can be more sensitive to those who have been unable to set
themselves free from hang-ups and help them along.   As I stated in my
reply to 193, I find your openness and healthy thinking helpful and
refreshing. It's been beneficial to me, for sure.  I had been telling my
wife about Judy's openness in this conference and showed her Judy's
similar openness in the medical conference, as she faces the real
possibility of a similar problem.  Knowing that it's OK to be open about
something so personal has been beneficial to my wife as well.  For that,
I appreciate and thank you all, especially Judy. 

regards, doug, 
	whom_you_will_never_see_natural_within_his_wife's_life_time

    OK, I can see why dead people or blind people might not enjoy the
    "scenery" in a naturist setting, but why should gay people get any less
    out of it?  Aside from the obvious fact that most such settings are
    mixed-gender, would you expect, for example, a gay man to find a
    woman's nude body less beautiful because of his sexual preference? 
    
    This assumption seems to deny the importance of openness, freedom,
    aesthetic beauty, and community with others (and with nature) and
    reduce naturism to the level of pornography.
    
    Anyone who thinks being gay would take all the fun out of seeing nude
    women must be having a purely sexual experience looking at them;
    perhaps his wife's concern would be justified (assuming she expects
    monogamy)!
    
              Mark  "MyTH"

> My wife doesn't say anything when I "look" at an attractive woman
> who passes us by, and the day I stop "looking" (with no intent to
> chase/catch) is the day I'm one or all of the following:
>    
>    1. Blind ;^(
>    2. Dead  ;^( ;^(
>    3. Gay   ;^( ;^( ;^(
    
    This really surprises me...people would actually prefer blindness
    and death over being gay.

    Well, as a gay person, I certainly wouldn't choose loss of sight
    or loss of light over being straight. 

    No matter what your sexual preference is, something of beauty is
    something of beauty. Just because someone is sexually-oriented
    toward a specific gender doesn't necessarily mean that he/she
    ONLY finds the gender of their choice to their liking. 

    I know alot of guys who are NOT gay who find the male body just as
    wonderful as the female, just as I know many gay men who find a
    female figure just as beautiful to see. 

    It's important to get past sterotyping people and allow them to be 
    humans.

   My .02,

   _Marc.

	

    I do NOT think that whatever comments that people made about
    why they look at women on a nude beach intended to be a putdown
    in any way on gay men.  Good looking people will look good regardless
    of who's doing the looking.
    
    The comment were intended to be an *excuse* why for straight guys WOULD 
    look around when they're at a nude beach.  
    
    Ben

    Speaking from a heterosexual woman's point of view, I enjoy looking 
    at both men and women's bodies.  I admit that I generally find men's 
    bodies more appealing than women's, but I'd much rather look at a 
    25 year old, well-proportioned, athletic woman's body than at a 70 
    year old, obese man's body, any day.  
    
    So tell me, all you heterosexual men out there:  wouldn't you rather 
    look at a beautiful peice of beefcake over a flabby old lady?  Don't
    worry.  We won't think you have homosexual tendencies just because 
    you have the ability to appreciate the beauty of a man's body.
    
    Anne

    A healthy, good-looking athletic human body can be appreciated by anyone, 
    regardless of the sex (or sexual-orientation) of the subject or the
    viewer.
    
    If I see a good-looking guy, I can compare and see what I have work on
    the next time I go to the health club. :-)  If I see someone out of
    shape, then I have more incentive to eat properly and exercise alot.  This
    is independent of any participation in naturism.
    
    Ben

    How many Men watch wrestling or Body Building, this is in a sense
    looking at mens body's and judgeing them, dont think that shows any
    homosexuality tendiencies at all. (wrestling a bad example but body
    building is a good one).  But still prefer to look at a womens body
    myself, and sometime find a clothed woman more sexy than a non-clothed
    regardless of her body...

| So tell me, all you heterosexual men out there:  wouldn't you rather
| look at a beautiful peice of beefcake over a flabby old lady?  Don't
| worry.  We won't think you have homosexual tendencies just because
| you have the ability to appreciate the beauty of a man's body.

	Gee, I didn't realize that having those tendencies was so bad!

This discussion is so silly that I feel compelled to give my 2� worth.

Yes, I admire and enjoy seeing healthy, good-looking bodies of either sex
and would rather be surrounded by them than fat flabby ones.  But I enjoy
naturism anyway! :*)

Carl

    
    re body building and wrestling.
    
    I wasn't aware that either of these was a mono-genderal sport.
    
    /. Ian .\

I find ALL peoples bodies interesting in one way or another.  Sure, a
beatiful body is a fine work of art but I really don't approve of the
way all the emphasis by society these days is on perfection, perfection,
perfection.  I just wish people would accept themselves as they are
and also be accepted by other people whether or not they are overweight,
underweight, their nose is too big, the wrong shape or their breasts aren't
big enough, etc... 

-james

A healthy body does not mean one free of fat or thin as a rail. A lot of weight
lifters become muscle bound, that is, they've lost their coordination because
they have more muscle than they know how to use. The human eye tends to prefer
the normal. We think that a normal face or a normal body is beautiful. If all
we see is what is in the media, that can easily distort our sense of normalcy
and lead us to think that most bodies are ugly, when in fact most bodies are
beautiful. An interesting perversion brought to you by people who know what's
good for you.
							John.

    RE: .27
    
    Thanks James..
    
    It's because of people like you with attitudes like yours that I am a 
    Naturist.  I think you're beautiful inside and out.. ;-)
    
    Robin

    
    RE: .24  (refering to homosexual tendencies)

    >> Gee, I didn't realize that having those tendencies was so bad!

    I don't either -- but some guys seem a little paranoid about it.
    
    
    Anne


    

| RE: .24  (refering to homosexual tendencies)

| >> Gee, I didn't realize that having those tendencies was so bad!

| I don't either -- but some guys seem a little paranoid about it.


	Thanks for clearing that up. I guess it was in the way it was worded
that made me think you might have a problem with it. Thanks! :-)


Glen

    I like looking at attractive females dressed or not. This I have been 
    doing since years. In my first year of marriage raji was wondering what I 
    was upto looking like that. In fact she used to wonder whether I was 
    looking at the traffic or females while driving. I have made it clear to 
    her that I am the one to appreciate beauty whereever it is & that this
    will continue as long as I can see. Now she does not complain. She only 
    cautions me not to stare too much. This seems like a good suggestion. May 
    be she believes that I will not go beyond looking. She does not mind me
    nuding at home. I like this attitude of respecting other's privacy. 
    
    I do not believe in classifying people as beautiful or otherwise. Beauty is 
    in the eyes of the beholder.