Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

    	See the November 1987 issue of Stereo Review for a test report
    on the Pioneer PD-M90X CD Changer which references the PD-M6 report
    in the January, 1986 issue of the same.

    
    	I have had a PDM 6 for...., well, since March '86, however long
    that is.  Its been completely trouble free, I still like it very
    much.  I am *MUCH MORE* interested in the musical content of the
    disks that I play than the technical perfection of the player, i.e.
    I am most definitely not interested in listening to the technology
    of the equipment, only interested in the music it can bring me.  I
    mention this only to show my orientation.  At first I thought it
    was *THE MOST WONDERFUL THING* for putting my multi disk sets together
    so that I could play them from end to end uninterrupted, it is still
    wonderful for this.  It is also great in the Random mode, though
    I didn't use this very much at first, probably because I didn't
    have enough disks that were sufficiently "mood compatable".  I still
    don't include disks in a random playing until I'm thoroughly familiar
    with them and know what I think they will go with.  Oh, once in
    a while I'll put a "shocker stack" together and hit random, but
    thats just for fun.
    
	Now that I have a fair number of disks there are many opportunities
    to combine them with contrast and without clashes (my opinion; well
    they're my disks).  I am feeling the need for more variety in a
    random stack and may get a Sony 10 pack player for just this reason.
    I think Pioneer could make a real market killing with a 2x6, i.e. double
    6 pack drive with some selectability over drives A and B.  Loop
    A, loop B, loop A and B, random A, random B, random A and B.  The
    JVC 700 is a 6 and 1 player that allows you to change the 6 pack
    while the single is playing, or vica versa, maybe I'll get one of
    those next.  Or maybe I'll spend the money on music lessons, who
    knows ?
    
    	Reg
    

    A correction to .0, which is based on misinformation I supplied
    in the AUDIO conference - the Sony "carousel" multi-disc player
    is the CDP-C5, not CDP-5F.
    				Steve

    
    	Lechmere just put the PDM 40 on sale, this week only for $249.9x.
    This is the most basic of 6 pack players, it does not have remote
    control, though I understand the rest of the "Guts" to be the same as
    the higher priced models.  This could be the ideal device to have at
    the other end of a headphone cord that goes into the second drawer of
    a filing cabinet. 

    
                      (Seen them both)
    
    I have a Sony CDP-C57 and a friend has the Pioneer.  They both are
    great for putting in a bunch of CDs and letting them play.  Random
    is a great feature although they operate a bit differently on the
    two.  The Sony randomly plays all the tracks on a disk then randomly
    selects another disc.  The Pioneer randomly selects a track from
    any disk and then selects the next track randomly from any disk.
    Talk about your picky details.
    
    I think the specs show the Pioneer requires a bit more time  to
    select a disk.  All of these areno real reason to select one over
    the other.  We are both happy with ours.  Good luck.
    
    
    Tom
    
    

    I've had a Sony CDP-C5 (plays 5 discs on a revolving platter) for a
    few months now, and it's been great.  It's nice not to have to get
    up every 1/2 hour or 45 minutes (I have lots of short-ish CDs) to
    put in a new CD.  And I thought I was spoiled by not having to flip
    to a second side...!

    You have to be sure that the CDs are laying flat in the platter,
    though.  If they're skewed a little bit, the platter can get stuck as
    it revolves.  Doesn't happen often, though, and it's completely due to
    my sometimes sloppiness in loading the CDs.

							-- Nina
    
    P.S.  I hardly ever use the remote control.

    I just got a PDM-60, and it works great. You can load a "6 pack
    magazine", or leave the "single" magazine in place. Loading up 6
    CD's and hitting Random is kind of fun!
    
    mike
    

    re .7 I recently got the PD M40 (stripped down model) and
    love it!! Put on six discs random, and the sucker will play
    for about 5 hours, and you never know which tune is coming
    next. a Fun feature.
    
                     Wayne

    I bought my husband the Pioneer PD M40 for Christmas this year.
    It generally retails (Lechmere & Leiser Sound) for about $300.00
    -- but I happened to catch the Lechmere sale price of $249.99 (though
    I had to wait 6 weeks to cash in my raincheck!).  I bought this
    one in October -- but Lechmere's has had this sale once again between
    October & Chistmas ...so watch for the sales.  
    
    My only concern with the 6 player types was that there are more
    moving parts that could possible "break down" -- therefore I bought
    a 4 year extended warranty as well.  My husband loves it !!
    
    Also... while we were at Leiser Sound (Shrewsbury) just last week
    (of course we now needed a new receiver ...) I noticed the PD M40
    on sale for $279.XX.. and you probably can get them to come down
    a little (we got them to come down $30.00 on the Denon receiver
    we bought!).
    

re: .6

    You have to be sure that the CDs are laying flat in the platter,
    though.  If they're skewed a little bit, the platter can get stuck as
    it revolves.

Be *very* careful when putting disks onto the Sony platter -- not only
can the player get stuck, but you can scratch the disk.  Samples on
demand.

Martin.

    
    	You people have got to have better memories than I do.  I've
    used my dad's Pioneer 6 pack player with remote, but I could never
    remember what disk was in what slot.  I had Santa deliver a Maggie
    465 instead.
    					=Ralph=

    A friend of mine has the (Pioneer?) model with the magazine for
    6 cd's.   I've never gotten a chance to fiddle with the type
    with the flat drawer.  I'd like to get one or the other soon....
              
    Everybody seems to like them, but who out there has USED both?
    
      questions:
       Are the access times for the 2 types comparable?
    
       The shuffle mode on the magazine type will randomly play a 
    song from ANY of the cd's.  I've heard that the drawer type only
    randomly plays per disk.  Is this true???
    
       In general, which do you think is better?  The flat drawer, to
    me, looks much more convinient than having to play with that 
    stupid magazine.
    
    

    re -1:
    
    I have the Pioneer CD Player and I really like.  No problems.
    
    re -2:
    
    Stack the containers up as you load the disks and then you
    can remember the order.  Works for me.
    
    Here is something interesting though.  I just got a magazine
    in the mail that advertises the new Pioneer car CD player.
    It takes the same 6 disc cartridge that your home set takes!
    
    This is something that I found intriguing.  Does anyone know the
    price?
    
    I think it would be great to have my 6 disk cartridge spinning
    in the house and then when I leave, just pull out the cartridge
    and stick it in the car.  It also plays cassettes and AM/FM.
    
    Going 1 step further, it has a remote control for the car.
    
    I'd be interested in details.
    
    With the Sony, I doubt if you will ever be able to take your
    5 (not 6) disk tray to your car unless it has a big dash board.
    
    :-)
    
    Brett_who_is_hoping_the_price_is_right.

    re .-2,
    
    The Pioneer 6 pack will play random cuts from all 6 discs that are
    loaded. The funny thing about this machine is that you have to load
    the discs in the 6-pack upside down. You have to do this when you
    play one disc as well.
    
    Another interesting thing, if you load only 4 discs, it may choose
    a random cut, say disc 6, track 8, it then discovers that there
    is no disc in slot 6, and then it "remembers" from that point on.
    The little #6 pacman light will go out, and it won't choose it 
    anymore. 
    
    The time it takes to swap one disk out and load a new one is just
    a few seconds, and is hardly noticible.
    
    mike
    

    
    re .-1
    
    It takes 10 sec for the player to change disc. It's not bad since 
    you have a 5 sec pause between tracks anyway. I had a Pioneer 6
    disk player whatever # for over a year now and it's great. I invested
    in a lot of packs and just leave the disks in there all the time.
    
    re .-?
    
    Which magazine?? I would be really interested in a thing like that.
    
    Peter

    RE < Note 927.12 by AQUA::MPALMER >

>       The shuffle mode on the magazine type will randomly play a 
>    song from ANY of the cd's.  I've heard that the drawer type only
>    randomly plays per disk.  Is this true???
    
    This is, alas, true.  For me, it's not a big deal.  But I'm sure it
    makes a difference to others.
							-- Nina
    

    
    	re	...don't remember, but it had to do with forgetting which
    disks were in which slots....  I usually stack the jewel cases that
    they came out of and put the magazine's box or the magazine over
    them.  Since I only have two six pack magazines to worry about its
    either one stack or the other.
    
    	re	Prices:-	The latest (post Christmas) catalogue
    from Crutchfield has the Sony 10 pack player for $499 and the JVC
    XL 500 (six pack, plus single drawer) for $399.  
    
    	re	Another desirable feature.  I have vague memories of
    a Fisher model that had a front loading feature, i.e. separate
    slots for each disk, you could change any disk that was not playing
    while it was playing one of the others.  I havn't seen this player
    for a long time, it may have been a five or six, I don't remember.
    
	Reg
    

    I have the JVC 6+1. I've never experienced a problem. Been using
    it every day for about 8 months now. 6 CD's in the magazine and
    1 in the tray. It too has the random play feature.
    
    Paul

Santa brought us an Onkyo which has a six-disc cartridge, memory, shuffle
and more trickery than I can use...
It replaced a Sony which just loved to skip...
Same discs, no skip.

	I've just read all of the comments made in this discussion and I found
them all very interresting.  Unfortunately, as it was pointed out, these players
have lots of moving parts that can break.  I'm very concerned about the quality
of the construction of these players. 

	For example, the fisher 6 disk player has 6 thin plastic racks that you
place the discs on.  You then push 1 button for each rack to get them to slide
back into the player and you close a thin plastic cover (somewhat like a cassete
door) over it all. This thin plastic concept has become popular in the cd player
market and, although I treat my equipment with care, I like to think it can
stand up to a bit of a beating. 

	Might somebody be able to discuss the construction of these two players
(pdm-60 and cdp-c5)?  I've seen the Sony player and I was pretty happy with it. 

	Another concern I have has to do with disc damage.  If you remember,
when the stacking record players came out they did fairly well for a device that
obviously mangled your records.  I know that these players don't exactly through
discs around but, especiclly in a magazine, isn't there a fair amount of rubbing
between the walls of the magazine and the disc? 

	I currently have a Tecnics SLP-2.  I feel that it is probably the most
solidly built player I've ever seen (barring the $800+ players). Unfortunately,
I can't imagine why, this player is no longer being made.  Tecnics got the "thin
plastic" fad in a big way although they have improved lately.  I want to get a
new player (changer) but I've never had to get this one repaired in the three
years I've owned it.  I don't want to trade up and have to visit the repair shop
once a month. 

    I HAD a Pioneer PD-M6, 1986 version of the PD-M60.  The PD-M60 is
    an updated version, and improved the PD-M6 in a number of ways.
    The new version will not repeat songs when playing in RANDOM, as
    it stores the played tracks in memory.  It also has time remaining/song
    and /disk.  How do I know all this?  Just before Christmas, my PD-M6
    played a CD, and did not return it to the magazine.  I couldn't
    get it out, so I brought it back to Lechmere.
    
    I waited 6 weeks.  Finally, they said that factory service authorized
    them to give me a NEW PD-M60 to replace the PD-M6.  I guess it was
    just too expensive to fix.  It was under the original 2-year
    parts/labor warranty.  Store personnel reported that they haven't
    heard of any other problems with the PD-M6 or M60.  Incidentally,
    the disk transport is a lot quieter and faster on the new model.
    
    Needless to say, I'm not complaining.  -brian
    

    
    	re .20	In the Pioneer PDM-6 the disks are carried on their
    label side in a little recess in the magazine tray, i.e. nothing
    rubs on the disk surface unless you turn the pack upside down and
    shake it, even then I would guess that the edges would shield the
    surface, though I havn't tried it (of course).  I don't know about
    the Sony 10 packs, though they do load the disks label side up,
    I would ASSUME that they are edge handlers.
    
    	re lotsa moving parts:-  Most of the additional ones for the
    PDM-6 are in the replaceable (~$10) magazine.
    
    	Reg
    

        re .21 and the Pioneer PD-M6 and
        
>    ... Just before Christmas, my PD-M6
>    played a CD, and did not return it to the magazine.  I couldn't
>    get it out, so I brought it back to Lechmere.
        
        Did you get your disc back?

    RE: .23, .21
    
    No, I didn't get my disk back, and I never saw my PD-M6 again. 
    It was an $8  budget classical CD (the kind that come packaged in
    cardboard instead of a jewelcase).  
    
    I figure, with the new player, a fresh 2-year warranty, a second
    remote, a new single-disk drawer, and a new multi-disk magazine, 
    I'm still ahead of the game.

    -Brian

    
    	So far in this note I've learned a great deal about the PDM-60
    Pioneer 6 disc player and the Sony CDP-C5 5 disc player.  There
    is only one question that I still have.  How do the remote controls
    compare on these 2 players?  Can you do everything from the remote
    that you can do manually or are you limited to specific functions?
    I've seen the remote for the Sony briefly and it seemed to be lacking
    the programing option.  Is this true or was I just blind?
    
    thanks in advance,
    /jim
        

The remote for the PD-M60 seems to allow all the same functions as the front
panel except Power off/on.  


-Joe

   re .-1
    	The PD-M60 remote unit also does not allow volume control..
    	 Well, of course it should do everything!1

>    	The PD-M60 remote unit also does not allow volume control..

Sure it does.  The STOP button.  Of course you get a lot of volume or none.
Hey, the world is binary anyway, right ??? :-)

>    	 Well, of course it should do everything!1

I can't wait to see how you get that 6 disk cartridge into that little hand
held remote :-))

-Joe

    do any multi-disk players have quadruple oversampling?

    
    	The remote unit doesn't have the display from the front panel
    either.  I'm not being picky, I think it would be a valuable feature
    especially for a multi player.

    do you think the Sony CDP-C50 (5 disc, table) is of good
    quality+performance? it is supposed to be 4X oversampling, digital
    filter... 

    how do you think it compares to other brands in terms of 'holding up'
    over the years, and delivering a consistently good level of
    performance? 

    (lechmere has it for $299 this week - WDS normally has it for $269)

    Rajive

    Re: .31
    
    It's hard to say, as the multi-disc players, especially the
    turntable variety, haven't been around that long.  But I would
    say that the turntable mechanism is much more likely to be
    reliable in the long run than the more traditional cartridge changer,
    since it has fewer moving parts.
    
    I have not heard of the CDP-C50, have seen the CDP-C5F (2x
    oversampling).  There is a new CDP-C7ESD, which has 4x oversampling
    and digital output - part of Sony's ES series.
    
    				Steve

    
    I got the CDP-C50 last week.  It sounds great!  Shuffles from disc
    to disc....
    
    I chose it because there is too much mechanical movement with the
    cartridge changer.
    
    I LOVE IT !
    
    -Dwight

    re .32   I've stated before somewhere in this conference that the
    Pioneer PDM-6 has very few (if any) additional moving parts IN THE
    PLAYER.  I've poked around inside mine and even with a corresponding
    single player opened on the bench side by side it would be close
    to impossible to identify unique parts that contribute to this assumed
    higher failure rate.  The multi player capability is implemented
    mostly in the cartridge, this has more parts and would be expected
    to have a slightly higher failre rate, though mine havn't failed yet.
    
    	Reg
    
    {Increased capabilities do not always lead to greater complexity
    and more parts and therefore higher failure rates}
    

    I have the Pioneer unit, too, and regularly use the random
    play feature. The only problem noticed to date, was when 
    my wife dropped a loaded cartridge on the cement floor. She
    decided to try and play it, and funny, but it didn't work.
    Upon examination, the tray for disc one had a broken hinge.
    I took out the broken try, and the rest of the cartridge 
    works fine, even in random mode. It just stores in memory,
    that there is no disc 1, and doesn't try to play it. You
    can't beat it.
    
            Wayne

	I live in Lowell and have a great interest in the cdp-c50 from Sony.
In fact, I've got 27 more days before I can no longer return one to Lechmeres.

	I was wondering if Sony has a similar player in the ES series.  I
saw an ES player this weekend and was very impressed.  Does anyone know
where the nearest Sony dealer is, what the ES series component that is
equivolent to the CDP-C50 is, and what such a beast can be expected to cost.

	Thanks for the help and, if people are interested, perhaps I'll review
the CDP-C50.

    Yes, Sony has a CDP-C7ESD, that appears to be similar to the C50.
    I may not have the model number absolutely correct.  I have not seen
    one in the stores nor do I know the price.
    
    					Steve

    I too picked up the Sony CDP-C50 at Lechmere and I think its great.
    The only thing I have against it is that several of the functions
    can only be invoked via the remote, but that's a relatively small
    matter.  I love the shuffle play on this model since it will randomly
    play songs on any disk, as opposed to other earlier multi-disk players
    which only shuffled songs on one disk before moving to the next
    disk.  It also takes the 3inch "CD singles" which is a nice feature.
    Anyone know where I can get 3inch CDs of classic/pop rock music?
    Sony is giving away 3 free 3inch CDs to buyers of any Sony CD player
    until June (?), but I won't be receiving those for 6-8 weeks.  (Mail
    in coupon) 
              

                          -< Sony CDP-270ESD >-                 
    
    I picked this unit up last weekend for $350 in Scarboro, ME.  I
    believe you'll find it equivalent to the C50.  You would probably
    be able to get it cheaper in Mass. or N.H.  Since I work in Augusta
    it was not worth the trip to Mass. or N.H. to get save a few bucks.
    The 270ESD has all the features you would want and is built like
    a tank, in my opinion.
    
                                Dave
                                

RE: .36-.39

	I've played with my c50 a bit now and, while I certainly enjoy it, I'm
starting to get a picture of its good and bad points. I'd expect all the good
points to be in the CDP-270ESD and would hope that they fixed some of the bad
points. 

	GOOD POINTS:

	fast disc-to-disc access time
	fast head movement
	nice display
	good remote control
	great sound (naturally)
	fair drawer
	generates very little heat (unlike my previous player)

	bad points (my 3 year old slp2 has these why not the c50?)

	forward/backward music scan on the console
	ability to queue to a song index
	ability to program from the console
	a-b repeat (also known as block repeat)

	My slp2 has a drawer that was, in 1985, as solid as a rock and 100%
functional.  Now, in 1988, it is still as solid as a rock (more so then the c50)
and it loads a disc almost as quickly as the c50 loads its discs.  True the slp2
drawer is much smaller and it only holds one disc instead of five, but the fact
remains that the older machine certainly looks much more sturdy then the new
machine. 

	If anyone can tell me how the 270ESD compares on these points I'd
appreciate your help. 

                            -< Sony CDP-207ESD >-
    RE: .36-.40
    
    The player is a 207 not a 270. My mistake.  It is not a multi-disc
    player and I did not realize the c50 was. My mistake again.  As to
    what you mentioned as good points, it has all of those features
    and it also has all the features you mentioned as bad points.
    
                                         Dave           

    There IS a Sony ES-series multi-disc player.  My memory says that
    the model is CDP-C7ESD, but I might be wrong.
    
    				Steve

    
    re:  .40
    
    What do you mean by "block repeat?"
    
    On the cdp-c50 you 'can' repeat a song, a disc, or all discs.

    RE : .38        Sony CDP-C50 
    
    >  matter.  I love the shuffle play on this model since it will randomly
    >  play songs on any disk, as opposed to other earlier multi-disk players
    >  which only shuffled songs on one disk before moving to the next
    >  disk.  It also takes the 3inch "CD singles" which is a nice feature.
     

    Ok.  It will randomly play from any disk.  Good!  But does it know
    what songs have been played.  I have been unable to find anyone
    who can tell me if it may replay a song during the SHUFFLE mode
    of play.  Does anyone know?
    
    Dale

    re: 44.
    
    From my experience, the CDP-50 does NOT know what songs it has already
    played on "shuffle."  The other night, I heard "It's just another
    day" 3 times during shuffle play. Now maybe that was just a mistake
    on the part of the operator and not the cd player's fault?

re .43

>    re:  .40
>    What do you mean by "block repeat?"
>    On the cdp-c50 you 'can' repeat a song, a disc, or all discs.

On my Technics slp7, there is a block repeat funtion that lets you select to 
arbitrary points on the disk and will repeat everything in between them.  I 
never use it myself, but some folks find it useful.

						     
							- JP

    
    Last night I played the cdp-c50 for an hour on shuffle, and it never
    repeated the same song twice.  
    
    Reply #45 and I share the same unit, and it may have been the way
    that we had it set up on "program."
    
    I'll continue to check and see if it does repeat a song or not.
    

    On Sony players, "block repeat" is called "A-B repeat".  Most of
    the middle-line and up players have it.
    
    				Steve

    RE : .47   and others.
    
    I called SONY's Customer Information number this morning, and...
    
    
    
    The CDP-C50 *may* repeat songs during shuffle play.  It just keeps
    picking random cuts until all cuts have been played.  If a pick
    duplicates a previous pick, it plays it again.
    
    
    Oh well...  :^(
    
    Dale
    

    I have the SONY CDP-C5F and I like it.  I have noticed recently
    that the pictures of advertised units are different and I assume
    that these are the CDP-C50.  Could someone list the differences
    here as I am curious.  The picture seems to indicate that the front
    panel has been rearranged.  The remote appears to have more functions.
    The C5F will not repeat selections in shuffle play but it plays
    randomly all selections on one disk before randomly selecting the
    next disk.  I gather from the comments in this note that the C50
    will randomly select a track from a random disk.  I haven't looked
    to see if the C5F handles the 3 inch disks how does the C50 handle
    it?  Is there a second set of ridges to support the 3 inch disk?
    
    	/s/	Roger
    

    Yes, the C50 handles the CD3 format.  The C50 also has 16-bit
    converters and 4x oversampling.
    					Steve

    where are good places to look at these multi-disc players?  
    (specifically CDP-C7ESD, but others too..)

    crutchfield is pretty limited, and tweeter just about has denon
    only...

    re .52	This reply belongs in the dirty_tricks.note conference,
    but I'll write it here anyway.  There are retail stores that offer
    30 day money back guarantees, no questions asked, just return it
    with original packing and sales receipt for a full refund, lots
    of them offer a similar 30 (or sometimes 90) day price protection
    guarantee too, if you find it cheaper elsewhere they'll refund the
    difference.  "Look at" ?,  why not have a 30 day at home test drive ?

    	Of course its unethical to take advantage of these schemes just
    so that you can use/abuse every product on the market, but its a
    good way to try the last one or two units when you've already narrowed
    the choice.

    	Reg
    

    
    	FWIW (for what its worth) the pioneer PDM-50 does the following:-
    
    In random mode with repeat not set plays each cut ONCE and then quits.
    This is sort of useful, after 4 or 5 hours of random playing it
    serves as a reminder that it might be a good idea to change the
    stack.
    
    In random mode with repeat set, plays each cut once with no
    repetitions, then plays each cut once in a different sequence, again
    with no repeats, then plays them again with no repeats until its
    done them all, this continues...
    This is also quite nice, even with only one disk that has 14 cuts
    it didn't play the same cut twice within 5 plays, i.e. cut 4 played
    close to the end of the first pass but didn't get played again until
    well into pass two.  I gave up trying to understand the randomizing
    algorithm, suffice that I was never left feeling, "I just heard
    that".
    
	Reg	{Oh, I have it for 30 days.  Looks like Pioneer might
    be fixing my 26 month old PDM-6 that I  "BROKE"  for free.}

     addendum to .52:
     
     o.k.  where are good places to *find* multidisc players??
     Pioneer, Magnovox, Sony (normal & ES), etc.  if there is a toss-up,
     maybe a 30-day try out period would be nice.
     
     I'm in the Lowell MA/Nashua NH area, but often go around/through the
     Springfield/Worcester/Boston MA areas...
    
     thanks,
     Jonathan

    
    Does anyone have any experience with the Sony CDP-C100 ten disk
    chnager? I saw one for the first time at Lechmere this weekend.
    
    				- bob -

    I have the 5 disk changer which I am very glad I bought instead
    of a single disk system.  If I can answer any questions about it
    let me know.

    I have the Sony CDP-C70 five-disc changer, and it's got some serious
    software errors (shuffle play with multi-disc plays some tracks
    over and over and over and over...., shuffle play and custom file
    aren't integrated, minor details like that...).  Next time I can
    afford a new player I'm going to check it out a little more before
    I buy, the bells and whistles are more important to me than 256-bit
    D/A converters with 64x oversampling.  :+)
    
    Willie

    I had a Sony CDP-C50 for a while. The shuffle-play algorithm is
    really flawed. It will probably play 75% of the songs on 5 disks
    before it starts to repeat. However, once it starts repeating tracks,
    it tends to repeat the same track at very regular intervals. I swapped
    the Sony for a Pioneer PDM-500 and have been extremely satisfied
    with this unit (except for the fact that there's no headphone jack).

Do the Pioneer multi-disc cartridge players handle 3-in. CDs at all?
Also, can someone give a feature comparison on the Pioneer PDM-xxx line, like
number of programmable tracks (on one disc; across all discs); functionality on
remote vs. unit, etc.?

Rich

>    Do the Pioneer multi-disc cartridge players handle 3-in. CDs at all?

     Yes, with the 3-inch adaptor. Some CD-3s are sold with the adaptor
    included.
    
>    Also, can someone give a feature comparison on the Pioneer PDM-xxx
>    line, like number of programmable tracks (on one disc; across all
>    discs); functionality on remote vs. unit, etc.?

     If it's the same as the PD-M60, then its 32-tracks maximum
     programmable, on one disk or many.  All functions are available
     on the remote, except headphone sound level.  Random play does
     not repeat tracks.  The lower models do not have direct-access
     programming, you have to press + or - to get to a track.
    
    -Brian

    I've been intrested in buying a multi-disc player and after reading
    everyones commmets, it seems everyone had something good and bad
    to say about all the models discussed.  So I had to go looking myself.
    I'm not unfamiliar with disc players, I have had a Sony CDP-110
    for quite some time and had no problems what so ever.  But at the
    time, mutidisc were at there debut and not to many things were said
    abou them.  I prefer Sony, sice the mechanics of the unit are very
    well designed.  (I'm an ME, so the electronics are usually second
    on my list) But one feature I really want to have, especially with
    the multi is the Shuffle play.  Now on theSony's, most complained
    about the C50 and C70 repeating tracks. The salesman even admitted
    that. The Pioneer models, that most mentioned I looka t were fine
   , but that cartridge is a plastic nightmare. What I mean is they
    won't last a beating and I work with plastics. I looked at Technics,
    Luxman, even Fisher has a muitiplay. and Sony has a 10 disc cartridge
    model now.  The unit that impressed me was the Onkyo. Very well
    constructed, the cartridge is made excellently and sound?  Well
    I don't believe that any unit in there respective price range sounds
    any better, you amp and speakers is what makes it sound good. I
    have 200w/channel system and that's enough to drive anything.
    
    Has anyone out there have any expirience with Onyko disc players?
    I don't think most salesman are to qualified to answer questions
    on eveything he carrys in the store, but this guy seemed to know
    about all the problems and good things that you people have had
    and even though the Onyko wasn't there top of the line, and ran
    $400, he was partial to it for the same reasons. Mechanics worked
    well and the shuffle will not repeat any track over.
    
    Stig

    But when I looked at the Onkyo, it would randomly play all the tracks
    on a single disk before choosing another disk.  Did they fix this?
    
    -Dave

    According to the salesman that prefered the Onkyo, he said , if
    random play was important to me, than this was the unit. Good point
    to bring back up to him since I got more confused the more I looked
    at players, they all had they good points, but I told him Iwant
    a unit that will not repeat tracks and is well built. The unit was
    only 2X over sampling, but it didn't seem to matter to much about
    that. Since I have a great unit now, I'm going to make sure that
    the multiplayer I purchase has all the features I want.  
    I still plan on holding out a little to see if Sony fixes there
    shuffle problem. I believe there tray and carrier mechanism is the
    best in the business. I would prefer to drop in the discs than have
    to remove a cartridge and then reinsert it into the unit. I did
    like that the C70, you could just drop 3 inch discs in also. It
    makes it so easy to use. Tha's why I didn't like the Pioneers.
    
    

I think the new version of the Sony 5 disc player does a total shuffle.  It's 
the one that will "remember" a 10 char id for up to 256 (+/-) discs.

						     
							- JP

That's the CDP C70 model with the custom file and program bank.  I just
upgraded my C50 to the C70 but as far as I know the shuffle logic wasn't
changed.  I haven't fully tested it out yet - only had it for less than a
week - but I'll check it out soon.

The disk memo feature where you "label" a disk with a 10-char name is
really handy!

Regards,

	Al

    The CDP-C70 also has the buggy shuffle logic.  Too bad really, if
    the software were fixed it would be a great machine!
    
    Willie

    Is the shuffle bug really that bad?  I mean if I have it loaded
    with 5 discs with say an average of 60 minuets/disc and it'll shuffle
    75%, we are still talking about 4 hours of music without repeating a
    track.  MTV doesn't even do that good.
    To the C70 owners, is it really that bad??? That model is still
    high on my list.
    
    Stiggy

    re .68
    >Is the shuffle bug really that bad?
    
    It was for me. The algorithm seems susceptible to certain combinations
    of disks, but I would often find the CDP-C50 I had repeating tracks
    within 15 or 20 minutes of start of play. It also will seem to favor
    certain tracks and repeat these over and over while only playing
    most tracks once.
    
    I can't believe that it would have taken a significant amount of
    additional hardware and/or logic to implement a Pioneer-style shuffle
    play. I really wanted to buy Sony instead of Pioneer and kept the
    C50 for about 2 weeks but it finally got to be too much. I've had
    the PDM-500 for several months now and have yet to regret that
    purchase. 

    
    I'm just curious how many of you who *have* shuffle play machines
    use the feature much.  It seems to have struck a chord with c50/70
    owners!!!
    
    I use it on my CDP-750 but only because if I want to program out one
    track on a disc with 15+ tracks, it's easier to hit
    "shuffle-track#-play" then it is to do
    "program-track#-track#......track#-play". 
    
    Even then, the shuffling can drive me crazy...I get used to hearing
    the songs in a certain sequence and it hrows me when that sequence
    is altered!!!!

    If it worked (and worked right, and took the tracks_I_like program into
    account) I wouldn't use anything else!  That was one of the main
    reasons I bought the thing....
    
    It will generally repeat a track within 3-5 tracks, and has a
    propensity to play high numbered tracks.  It gets really annoying...
    We just end up playing the tracks_I_like mode for all the disks
    in order.
    
    Willie

    My fiance� and I use it all the time.  I have two 6-disc magazines
    for my Pioneer, and will put one on random play while we read, have
    dinner, have guests, whatever.  The randomness helps break up the
    monotony of having all the songs by one artist played in a row.
    
    We can switch magazines if we tired of what's on the one we've been
    playing, and I re-load them with other discs occasionally to help
    keep things different.
    
    My only complaint is just a nit.  Don't play live CDs, or theme
    CDs in shuffle play mode.  Listening to "Time" by ELO in shuffle
    mode is kind of screwy.
    
    -Dave

>    < Note 927.64 by CANDY::CASTIGLIONE "Born to be Wild" >
>    like that the C70, you could just drop 3 inch discs in also. It
>    makes it so easy to use. Tha's why I didn't like the Pioneers.

    I've just bought a Pioneer 5100 (UK model), it has a tray with an
    inner location for 3" discs, and states that you can load them
    in direct.
    
    Richard

    Just my $0.02 worth...
    
    I have had the Sony C50 for about 2 months now and am very pleased.
    When I first got the C50, I used the shuffle mode a lot but
    found what I really didn't like about it was that depending on what
    types of music you listen to the experience can be horrible.
                            
    That is, I listen to many differenct types of music (rock, classical,
    folk).  What I found if you put CDs of mixed types in the tray is
    that there is too much inconsistency to your listening. Almost like
    bouncing from one radio station to another, and not knowing what
    station is coming next.  Also, a lot of classical music has very
    short (1-2 minute) interludes that seem to count as distinct tracks
    on the CD.  First, these short parts are not intended to be listened
    to by themselves, but they also sound very strange when put between
    Bruce Springsteen!
                                                              
    I find that I now don't use the shuffle mode at all, but thoroughly
    enjoy the ability to listen to 5 discs over a 5-6 hour period.
    
    Art

    Consider this about Shuffle Play.
    
    If a player did "TRUE" shuffle, randomizing every song on all of
    the discs, then the mechanism would quickly wear out.  Imagine your
    player changing discs every five minutes for hours on end!  The
    player, In my opinion, wouldn't last very long.  I love the way
    my player shuffles discs.
    
    I pick a starting disc.
    The player shuffles all of the songs on that disc
    the player randomly picks one of the 4 remaining discs (I have the
        sony)
    and it randomizes the songs on that disc.
    etc.
    
    Granted I was a bit disapointed when I got the player, because I
    expected true 5-disc shuffle, but upon thinking about Sony's position
    of having to fix broken machines that were randomized to death,
    I'm glad they went this route.
    
    Steve O

    re .75 Huh??? Why would the disc shuffling mechanics wear out any
    faster than the laser tracking mechanics??
    
    I bought the Pioneer PD M40 with the six pack cartridge about a
    year ago. As was mentioned a couple back, I use shuffle play 
    depending on music being listened to, and mood. I often put in
    six old rock/jazz/folk discs and hit random, and enjoy the medley
    for hours! Then, there are times, when listening to orchestral
    music, or certain discs (Pink Floyd DSotM, The Wall) that going
    straight through the program is much more enjoyable. The key is,
    I have the option to use the various modes depending on my mood!
    
    I have had no problems with the player or cartridge, including
    a cartridge my wife dropped, and broke the first tray out of. We
    simply don't have a tray 1 to put a disc into, and the player 
    tries once to access that missing disc, and then remembers it's
    not there.
    
    I reccomend this type of player, and when it comes time to buy 
    another, this style will be first on my list to check out.
    
                        Wayne

    re: .75:  EUCLID::OWEN "Hltr Skltr...we're stealin' it back!" 
    
    What Sony do you have that does the
    shuffle_a_disk_then_pick_the_next_disk
    shuffle?
    
    Willie

    I can't remember the extact name, but it was the FIRST generation
    of sony carousel players.  2x oversampling and a very simple remote
    control.
    
    Steve O

    Re: .78
    
    CDP-C5F
    
    Re: Shuffle play
    
    I have a single-disc CDP-510.  I tried shuffle play once when I
    got it, then never again.  Perhaps it's the type of music I listen
    to.
    			Steve

    re: .79
    
    Yeah, me too.  I only use shuffle play for Christmas music.  It's
    just too jarring to the nerves for much else.  But for that time
    of the year, it's sure fun to have!
    
    B
    

    I think I'm going to try the Sony CDP C70 next time it goes on sale
    at Lechmere. I can take it back after a month if I don't like it,
    but I'll be able to tell much sooner.  The Pioneer is still out
    since I didn't like the quality of the cartridge.  I have a Sony
    now and haven't had one single problem and I use it every day. I
    was looking at mine and, it's seems I program it more than use the
    shuffle anyway.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Stig

    I had to submit my experience on this, since I have had the Pioneer
    for 2 years.  I ALWAYS use the random-mode, execept when I first
    get a new CD.  I guess it's my fondness for freeform radio, but
    I enjoy not knowing what song or album will come up next.  I'll
    throw in some rock, a jazz CD, and a sampler with a lot of different
    types of music.  It provides a new king of listening mode, unavailable
    in any other format.  You can even program the Pioneer to randomize
    a subset of the 6 CDs, up to 32 songs.  Sometimes I'll pick my top
    32 and throw in a tape, and leave.  The next morning, it's like
    listening to my own radio station on the way to work, with only
    songs I like being played.  The older Pioneers repeated songs
    occasionally, but they have fixed that problem.  Last week I was
    painting all day, and the 6 CDS had every song played: after about
    6 hours, the machine stopped, since all selections had been played.
    I could have chosen a repeat mode, which would have then started
    the 6-hours all over again, in different order.  For me, the Sony
    just wouldn't allow the same flexibility.  BTW- I purchased an
    extended warranty, so am protected against equipment failure.  I
    have 4 cartridges and they all work fine.
                                    -Brian

    Now if Sony would only fix their software so that it would only
    play the user_preference programmed selections in random order without
    repeats, I'd take an axe to my CDP-C70 (even tho it's only a couple
    months old)......
    
    Willie

    Have any of you irate Sony owners called them (800-222-SONY) to
    complain?  
    				Steve

    That number has been busy since the beginning of time!  I'm considering
    writing them a nasty letter, but I need some free time first...
    
    Willie

    I've gotten through to 800-222-SONY three times in the last month.
    Only once did I have to dial back.
    
    B
    

When I bought my Kenwood 6-pack machine, I was told that the
transport is the same mechanism as the Pioneer 6-disc changer. If
so, I like to get the part number for the single changer pack so
that I can play one disc at a time (as when I want to record the
disc to cassette tape).

thanks

cal

    re .87	I'm surprised that they didn't include a single disk
    drawer with the unit, my Pioneer PDM-6 (a classic original:-^))
    came with both.  For recording a single disk to tape you COULD just
    put one disk in the six disk magazine, it won't damage anything
    to run with the other 5 trays empty.  I'll try to remember to get
    the numbers off of mine tonight, about the only thing that didn't
    change with the new models was the cartridge/magazine.
    
    	R
    

    This is a gas!
    
    The Pioneer single compact disc magazine that came with my PD-M700
    is called, "Single-Compact-Disc Mangazine".  No model number - no
    part number - THAT'S IT!
    
    Even in the operating manual it says under the heading Before Operating
    Player:
    
    "Confirm supplied accessories"
    
    Single-Compact-Disc Magazine x 1
    (Called single-disc magazine in the explanatory text.)
    
    I guess you would ask for Pioneer's Single-Compact-Disc Magazine
    
    Dave
    

    I have a Garrard Player that takes the Pioneer type magazine.  The
    problem is that I can not find new magazines for under $15.95 locally
    (Dallas)  I have tried the discount houses (K-Mart, Target - we
    don't have Leechmiers) they don't carry them.  When I go to a record
    store or an electronic store, if they have it it is over $15.00.
    How much do you pay for them in New England?  Does anyone know of
    a mail order that sells them for less than $10.00?
    
    Thanks for any help

    
         I buy mine here in Phoenix at a place called Silo.  It's just
    a typical appliance store that sells washers,dryers and refrigerators
    and also electronics.  They have them for $9.99 all the time.  The
    only other place that I ever see them that cheap is sometimes Service
    Merchandise has them on sale.
    
    Tom

    Thanks I have a Service Merchandise about 20 miles from my house
    I will give them a call.
    Dave

    Reply to .90 - 
    
    I'm surprised you don't refer to a Crazy Eddies.  The President
    of CE is from Texas, he used to run a family retail appliance business
    - made it very successful - and then decided to start over again
    with a real loser (Crazy Eddies).
    
    Anyway, if you bring any ad (stereo magazines included) into Crazy
    Eddies, they will beat the price.  You can also haggle (a lost art)
    if you go in without an ad.
    
    And if you buy a few stereo mags (Stereo Review, Audio, Hi Fi, etc)
    you will see advertisements from all the mail order houses.  You
    may not see the magazines (cd cartridges, this is), but if they sell 
    blank tapes the chances are excellent they will sell the cd mags.
    
    The lowest advertised price I've seen in $9.95, but I've ordered
    a few mail order for less (not much less, like $9.59 or something).
    
    Dave

    Reply to .93 -
    
    Were in Texas? Texas is a big state.  I am in Dallas and have never
    heard of it.  That doesn't mean that is is not here, as I don't
    know everything in Dallas.
    
    I have looked in Audio Review and called about 10 places with ads
    and the cheapest I was able to get was $13.95.  By the time you
    add shipping and handeling its not that much cheaper than localy.