Conference marvin::uk_music

    Obviouly if you go to Our Price, Virgin and H.M.V. you are gonna
    be charged extortionate (sp?) prices. We have a couple shops here
    in Leeds that will sell these albums at 6.49 or even 5.99 and then
    offer students 50% off.
    
    Find out your local 'Chain With No Name' shop, they'll offer a better
    and friendlier service as well as cheaper records.
    
    B

    I'm not at all surprised by the 6.99 price tag - I've often seen
    non-discounted single albums at 7.29
    
    Bob

    I remember when Our Price was mean't to be a cheap shop!
    
    Unfortunately I don't know a good independent record dealer in
    Basingstoke. If anyone does, let me know.
    
    Mark.

    
    I think I'll stick to Listen (I live in Reading)...  Even Smiths
    and Woolies seem to be cheaper!!!
    
    Mike.

    
    Yes, vinyl is going up alright. Kite by Kirsty MaColl 7.49 in ourprice
    in Hull. Why also are records CHEAPER generally in the south than
    the north. Strange but true!
    
    Also, the condition of new discs in shops-the ourprice in Reading
    crams the records in to the racks, destroying the covers, and why-
    to give more space to a medium taking less than 20% of sales by
    volume ie CD. I think that vinyl prices are a ploy to get people
    to buy CD's and thus make more profit, rather than profit on a record.
    
    CBS records are both expensive and poorly pressed, and who owns
    them-Sony. Who invented CD-Sony. Is this suspicious ?
    
    juju
    xxxx
    
    Irate Vinyl Fan!
    

    Come on chaps, how much were you paying 15 years ago for an LP?
    #2.50? If you look at price increases over such a period of time
    then things are'nt as bad as they appear.
    
    Yours,
    
    Maurice Oberstein.
    
    Never could stand that dog - Tom Waits.

    re .5....
    
    �7.49 isn't bad if the record'd worth having, and it's still less
    than 2/3 the CD price. The companies prefer you to buy the CD; if
    you buy the LP they lose more money than if you bought the CD and
    taped it for a friend, thus they encourage the retailers to give
    CD more space. Think yourself lucky that our retailers aren't like
    those in other countries, who are often CD-only.
    
    Some (like the BPI) would have us believe that CD rules OK, but
    next time you go into Our Price, which stand (CD, LP or tape) has
    the most people browsing? And what do most people at the checkout
    have in their hands?
    
    Also, as some ditch their LPs, there's some real used bargains about,
    so if the new price grates look around the car boot sales, used
    record dealers, etc.
    
    Dave

    
    	re price of Vinyl,
    
    	the big jump x years ago was because of the oil crisis (yes
    	I am that old), the price of oil now is WAY below 10 years
    	ago, so the extra's just what the market will take.
    
    	CD's are similar, they actually now cost LESS than an LP to make
    	but the market will take the higher price. (I buy 'em, I know
    	I'm being ripped off, but I want the portability and the 
    	longevity, but if they all fall to bits in 10 years I'll sue
    	the swine).
    
    	Doug.

.5�    CBS records are both expensive and poorly pressed, and who owns
.5�    them-Sony. Who invented CD-Sony. Is this suspicious ?
    
    No, Phillips invented CD.
    
.8�    	CD's are similar, they actually now cost LESS than an LP to make
    
    To PRESS [sic], yes, but to produce the necessary masters is MUCH more
    expensive than for an album. Therefore the comparitive cost of albums
    versus CDs depends on the volume produced.
    
    At the end of the day, you have a free choice. If you think albums are
    better value, buy them; if you think CDs are better...

    
    
    I still think the price is too high..no matter how much they cost
    X years ago.  #7.49 is still a lot to some of us, and don't forget
    how much goes on advertising /marketing costs (the ultimate rip
    off).
    Mikef

    re .9, the cost difference to produce is not that great, but the
    profits for shops and companies are nearly DOUBLE what they are
    for vinyl.  Lets face it, the public is being ripped off with CDs,
    the companies have sussed that the public are willing to pay that
    price, and don't see why they should reduce thier profits. 
    
    Like I said,
    
    Capitalism is killing music...
    
    

    While I admit I don't find the price *in itself* too much to pay
    for an lp, given the amount of enjoyment gained from a great record,
    I agree with Mike about the cost of advertising/hype etc.
    
    Bob

    Yeah, thanks Bob.  My trouble is, like a lot of other people here
    i guess, I'm often interested in groups I don't know anything about.
     So taking the risk with 7 quid to find that great record is dodgy.

    Mikef
    

Past, present & future...(US figures quoted)

The LP was born, like millions of (dare-I-say-it) babyboomers, in 1948.
It came out in stero in 1958 and reached its full maturity in 1977 and 
1978 when more than 340 million LPs were sold in each of those years.
It was in 1983 that serious competition appeared on the scene as cassette
sales passed LP sales for the first time.  1983 was also the year that
the first CDs and CD players were made available to us, the US market.
Only 800,000 CDs were sold here that year, compared to 210 million LPs
and 237 million cassettes, but the writing, as they say, was on the wall.

In jumping ahead 5 years, for the year ending June 30, 1988, the Recording
Industry Association of America reported that CD sales were up to 130 
million, cassettes 432 million and LPs only 94 million.  According to the
president of WEA, LPs are expected to hold onto at least 5 percent of the
$6 billion recorded-music market for several years, but its life expectancy
as a major force in the marketplace is estimated at only between two and 
five years.

Its true that the recording industry reaps substantially higher profits
from CDs than from LPs as they both cost about the same to manufacture.
Also benefitting from the promotion of CD sales are manufacturers of
components, especially speakers.  The argument that CDs are practically
"indestructable" is, we know, hogwash and according to an article in a
past (sorry, don't know when, sometime in 1988) issue of New Scientist,
there are studies being done to determine whether the aluminum coating 
on CDs oxidizes after several years, causing the degrading of the data 
stored on the CD.

So, it looks like the LP is doomed, but not for several years yet....
and the CD may not be all its cracked up to be.  Just think, all you
LP fans, how much your collections will be worth as a result of the
care you've taken all these years.

As a final FYI....did you know that the stylus vibrates some 20,000 times
a second in the LP's groove?

There will be a quiz on Monday! ;-)

    For independent(ish) record shops in the Reading area look out for
    Mark One Records (Woodley and Wokingham?) and also Listen in Reading.
    The biggest shame about the Reading scene is the way that Music
    Market saw it's demise - being sold to the W.H. Smith/Our Price and
    then being turned into a Paperchase.
    
    I also reckon that it's pretty ridiculous that CDs are priced so
    extortionately when it appears that they are making more profit per
    song than conventional vinyl.
    
    
    
    Paul

    Once again, I agree, Mike - the only time 7 odd quid is a bit of
    a risk is when I am investigating something new. Even being able
    to listen to a few tracks beforehand in the shop can be a bit risky,
    since some lps take a few listens to get into; you might pass on
    something that would have been good after a few plays. Still, at
    least I can find things I know I won't like! I've had this experience
    recently with an lp by Midnight Oil; I loved the single, but I could
    tell immediately that the lp wasn't for me. Again, I have discovered
    such gems as REM, Throwing Muses and the Hooters on the strength
    of hearing one or two tracks on the radio then listening to a side
    in the shop.
    
    Trouble is, there's just so much good stuff out there, there isn't
    time (or money 8^() to investigate everything.
    
    Bob

    
    Do Cassette sales (pre-recorded) actually outsell LPs in Britain?
    I always steer clear of Cassettes, because the quality is (was)
    never as good as the vinyl and Cassettes I purchased always seemed
    hell bent on self destruction! 
    
    I usually buy the album and then record it onto tape for use in
    the car.
    
    I bought a CD player earlier this year, but haven't given up buying
    LPs altogether. If I like the sound of a group, but haven't heard
    much I'll buy the vinyl (but not at 7.99!), but if I know the group
    better I'll buy the CD.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Just as an aside, why is it that the record clubs can sell CDs
    at the same price as high street shops, when their records are 
    considerably dearer. High street shops DO make a big profit on 
    CDs, there's no other answer!

    As far as I'm concerned, the quality of pre-recorded tapes these
    days is fine.
    
    I used to buy lps exclusively, then tape them for use on the Walkman,
    etc, but just lately I have been buying lps on cassette too. So
    far, I've had no problems.
    
    Bob

    re -.1...
    "    Do Cassette sales (pre-recorded) actually outsell LPs in Britain?"
    
    You bet. According to the BPI, cassette sales last year were more than 
    double LP and CD put together!
    
    The *only* market niche where CD outsells LP in the UK is the classical
    labels; even then, CD is outsold by cassette. In spite of what the
    labels' people say, the decision to drop LP on some full-price
    classical catalogues was commercial, and nothing to do with CD-v-LP
    quality; most collectors, unless they are musicologists, will only
    have one or maybe two versions of a given work, so the cassical
    LP market went quiet long before CD came along. CD was an ideal
    market tool to persuade those people to replace their LPs with
    something perceived as more desirable, at twice the price and four
    times the profit. I'm sure those people mostly get a lot of pleasure
    from reinvestigating favourite works in the new medium, but that's
    not why DG et al want them to have CDs.
    
    Generally, the pop/blues/folk/other-specialities are *very* resistant
    to CD pressures in the UK. Some material can't be found on tape,
    never mind CD. So long as the cost of short-run CD production remains
    high, many speciality labels will persevere with the "old" technology,
    which is getting better all the time.
    
    Dave
    

    
    WEA announced Friday that next year they will no longer produce
    7" vinyl singles.

    Hi Fi show at Heathrow recently:
    
    Dealers at this show, especially the smaller British "specialist"
    turntable manufacturers, seem to be of the opinion that LP's were
    on the way out as the MAIN medium, to be replaced initially by CD,
    which inturn may possibly/eventually be replaced by DAT.
    
    However due to the investment in turntable technology, and loyalty to
    LP's by hifi buffs, the LP would not completely dissappear. Infact
    it may even lead to the production of higher quality LP's for the
    minority market.
    
    Also, with the recent improvements in CD technology (16 bit sampling
    and bit-stream sampling (!?) ), plus the awful quality of most LP's,
    why not move into CD's ? Recent hifi mags have tested �200 CD players
    and come up with favorable reviews - I'll be buying one soon. (If
    you cant beat them ....)
    
    Richard
    
    ps - My theory on CD/LP pricing:  
    
    1. Record companies keeping LP's high to maximise profits AND turn
    punters towards CD's
    2. Record companies keeping CD prices high but stable (�10-�12)
    to promote their "hi-tec" image, encourage people to buy them because
    of the scratch/background noise improvement over poorly made/kept
    records. ie "might as well get the CD, its only a few quid more
    and at least it'll sound good".
    
    I wonder what will happen to CD prices when LP's die ? 

    Does anyone really get CDs because they are "only a few quid more"?
     That few quid is almost the price of another record!!  Hmmm, I
    still haven't heard a CD that is as wonderfull as people say, the
    only real difference is the noise between tracks (ie silence), but
    if you sit listening to that then you deserve what you get.  Tho
    I did hear a CD player thru a valve amplifier once that did sound
    quite good.
    The only people who seem to be losing out here are those of us mugs
    who actually enjoy music.  Most people who seem to get CDs seem
    to be the types who only get 10 lps a year, so they are not too bothered.
    Its a harsh old world.
    
    Mikef          
    

    re;.22
    
    Sorry I don't agree,(excluding CD posers/snobs, who I hate), most
    of the people I know seriously use their CD .
      As for "10 LPs a year" , My old mum buys more than that!
    We average 10 a month though we're not against buying the odd record.
    
    What I don't like is the difference between CD prices:
        8.99 , 9.99 , 10.99 and 11.99 !! for recent/new albums.
    
    David.(strike-up-the-band-and-play-on)

    
    
    I buy loads of CDs, and especially look out for the special
    offers...and there are alot about !
    
    CDs are mostly useful 'cos
    
    1)	You can find your favourite track in a tick
    2)	The tape recordings are brilliant ( specifically for use in the car!) 
    3)	It is a bit more difficult for me to damage them in my usual state
    4)  I am a YUPPY SNOB :-)

     Re 501.9
    
    Sony did actually co-invent CD with Phillips. This is why the CD
    players that sounded best were produced by these two. I think they
    must have realised the benefits of working together after the Video
    market. 2000 & Beta.
    
    In fact most japaneese co.s work sort of together on products such
    as DAT & Computer hardware.
    
    re the note on the costs of records in the shops compared to days
    of yore, one must remember that *new* technology  costs always fall
    in real terms. It is not unreasonable to expect the real pricce
    of records today to be less than that of 30 years ago. There are
    few things that actually are. 
    
    As a hi-fi freak I also believe firmly that I do not like the basic
    sound of a CD - too forceful and loud. A CD plays the record, a
    turntable plays *Music*
    
    However as my vinyl will soon be obsolete due to a marketing man's
    dream, I will have to buy a CD player soon as I will have no choice.
    
    Answer this though.. Why is vinyl slumping in sales though, as many
    more people own turn table s rather than CD's.
    
    juju
    xxxx
    

    Errr, I suspect that the 'slump' may have something to do with cost...
          
    Also, a lot of people believe that getting any CD player is an
    automatic guarantee of high quality, even if it is part of a midi
    system costing #199!!!
    
    
    How come when I go to our Price, there are always huge queues of
    people buying vinyl, but i hardly ever see anyone buying a tape
    or CD?
    
    
    Mikef

    The only CDs i would buy from Our Price are the special discounted
    ones that, supposedly, noone wants...you can get some bargains !
    
    I don't know where your Our Price is, but i bet there are a few
    specialist CD shops, or shops with better CD stocks than most of
    the Our Prices i have ever been in !
    
    John ( who lives in Munich and has WOM and loadsa specialist shops to
           go to, and they're all cheaper than London...HA !)

    Ditto. I don't buy CDs in Our Price because I can't afford to. Other
    places are cheaper..

    
    Vinyl sales are declining because of quality not cost. The pap that
    record companies release these days should sell at half the price
    of records from the 60's.
    
    People wanting cheapER records should steer clear of Our Price and
    Virgin. Our Price definatly. Going round each record shop in Leeds
    on Saturday, I found Our Price's prices the highest and a small
    friendly indie shop - Crash - to have the lowest prices. Closely
    followed by another indie shop 'Jumbo'.
    
    If you avoid the Chains then you won't have to pay as much.
    
    Personally I stick to vinyl 12"'s and L.P.'s 'cos it takes so long
    to find a single track on a cassette and I can't afford C.D. (Oh
    yeah and I want a collection I can come back to when I'm 70!)
    
    Bruce

    If you buy a CD in HMV in Guildford, you get a book of tokens worth
    �10 off subcequent CD purchases. Perhaps the offer is on in other
    branches ?
    
    Stir Stir - a recent hifi mag ran tests on the new breed of cd player
    costing �120 to �160, and came up with the conclusion that the better
    ones produced a sound as good as a record player costing the same
    amount. (Best one was a Phillips at �140).  For the technical it
    had 16bit 4times oversampling as do the more expensive machines.
    
    As I listen to so much music in the car, I prefur tapes made from
    a cd.
    
    The debate goes on ...............
    
    Rich.
    

    The sound may be as good, but different! I prefer the warm, live
    sound of vinyl to the loud and abrasive sound of CD.
    
    juju
    xxxx
    

    Whilst i agree that they can sound different, eg the Pretenders, best
    of Album sounds dreadfully tinny on CD and not atall like the original
    (even on CD )
    
    BUT ,
    
    
    There are things called amplifiers and Graphic Equalisers that can be
    used to adjust the sound to your taste !

>    There are things called amplifiers and Graphic Equalisers that can be
>    used to adjust the sound to your taste !
    
    For goodness sake don't say this to an audiophile!! (or at least say it
    from a safe distance!!)
    
    Nick

    Graphic Equalisers????
    
    
    BBBBBLLLLLEEEEEAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
    
    
    Mikef

    
    
    Hey,
    
    don't take this as blatant publicity for a notes file moderated by
    myself, BUT, do have a look at UK_AUDIO, now on MALLET.
    
    Doesn't seem to be available at this minute though!
    
    Mark.

>>        Graphic Equalisers????         
>>    
>>    
>>    BBBBBLLLLLEEEEEAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
  
    I hope you realise that probably every record or cd you ever listened
    to has been through one at some point....
    
    Tony      

    Yeah, but professional doobries in the studio, which cannot in any
    way be compared with the insults that are sold in shops.
    I have yet to hear an equaliser in the home that can make a piece
    of music sound better.  The only place I have heard them do a good
    job is in a car.
    
    Mikef              
    

    
    
    So...you never use the base and treble knobs on your amp ???
    
    I can see clearly now !
    
    Stanley J

    I don't have Bass and Treble on my amp (serious Hi Fi Snobbery).
    
    But the point was that crude controls such as these cannot mimic
    what a mixing desk in a studio does.  No amount of buggering around
    can alter the sound of a duff recording.
    
    Mike

    AHA !
    
    So...we agree...it is the recording that is usually "duff".
    
    
    You can have a badly recorded, mixed, cut, pressed Vinyl album.
    
    Ditto CDs !
    
    At last !
    
    Stanley J
    
    
    BTW. How do you especially annoy your neighbours without using the
    	 base...When you have reached full volume (200 watt per channel RMS+)
	 you need a little something more !

    Errr....I never said you couldn't have a badly made rec/cd :-)
    
    I have no problem annoying neighbours!
    
    Mikef

    Presumably, the artiste has the sound exactly as they want it at
    the recording and stage - it's during the transfer on to vinyl,
    tape or CD that the bad sound creeps in, and Mike quite rightly
    says that no amount of eq is going to make a bad pressing sound
    good; better, maybe, but from what I understand from reading audiophile
    mags, any eq on your amplifier is going to add to distortion.
    
    If you do use eq on your amp, I would have thought that you need
    to crank the top end up to really annoy the neighbours, since bass
    frequencies seem to carry through walls etc a lot more readily.
    
    Bob

    I fail to see what all the fuss is about.
    
    If you enjoy moving the sliders on a graphic up and down and if
    they make the music appear to sound better (even if it's only a
    psychological effect) then it's obviously worth getting one. If
    they appear to make no difference or even degrade the sound then
    don't get one. After all, in any system, the biggest source of
    imperfection is never the graphic, or the vinyl, or even the speakers,
    but the human ear which cuts and boosts frequencies all over the
    shop, and differently according to the overall volume of the sound.
    
    Unless you can arrange to use the record producer's ears to 
    listen with then you will always find people who want to vary the
    overall bass-treble spectrum from what the producer thought perfect.
    Maybe their ears are less responsive to bass frequencies and so
    they want to turn the bass up a bit. Some peoples' ears may be
    extremely sensitive to distortion so they pick up distortion introduced
    by tone circuitry in an amplifier - for them an amp without tone
    controls will sound best.
    
    Me I like loads of bass - much more than most record producers put
    on an album, so if I can increase my enjoyment by tweaking the bass
    control I'll live with the fact I may be a Hi-Fi philistine!
    
    
    Tony 
    
                            

    
    So you do not like to try and hear what the artist heard when making
    the record! If sound quality means little to you, surely you cannot
    care about the music you listen too. Take an album such as Stings
    Nothing like the sun. Fabulous if listened to properly! 
    
    There is no debate that equalisers DEGRADE the quality of what you
    listen to. If you want this, why should an artist go to great lengths
    to produce his best work, if the end user of his /her album is going
    to not appreciate it. 
    
    To me Music is too important to mess about with, and besides, I
    chose my amp on its sound quality not its tone controls.
    Y
    juju
    xxxx
    

    Yeah,
    
    there is also the hope that a manufacturer who has not wasted money on
    tone-controls, has spent more money on making it sound nice.
    
    My old Yamaha amp, doesn't have any tone controls (trying to be
    trendy), and I must admit I don't miss them.
    
    Mark

>>    So you do not like to try and hear what the artist heard when making
>>    the record! 
    
    Well.... no, not really. I listen to music for my own enjoyment. If I
    find I increase my enjoyment by turning up the bass then I'll do so. I
    can't explain why, maybe there's something wrong with my ears, I don't
    know. All I do know is that it sounds better *to me* (and there's no
    way you can argue with that statement.) 
    
>>    If sound quality means little to you, surely you cannot
>>    care about the music you listen too.
    
    It is a pity you have such little confidence in your argument that you
    have to start on the personal jibes in only the second sentence of your
    note! I should warn you that as a jazz fan, I'm used to taking any amount
    of insults about my musical tastes ;^)
    
    But to answer your point... 
    I usually get more enjoyment out of listening to music with the bass 
    turned up.
    If it means I'm a musical slob, so be it. (As I said before, I think I
    can live with that).
    
    Music is so intensely personal that it is impossible to analyse what
    moves one person differently from another. If you don't want tone
    controls, then don't have them. I'm not trying to tell you they're any
    better, just that I like them. You mentioned an album by Sting; if
    that's the latest album then I have listened to it at a friend's house
    (yes I do have some!). Now I don't happen to like his voice. I can't
    explain why. Technically it's very strong; his intonation's good and
    his lyrics intelligent, I couldn't fault the album musically, 
    but it doesn't do anything for me. We're dealing with human (or
    in my case, near human ;^)) emotions and they can't be quantified
    in simple terms. You just have to keep trying until you find out
    what you like.
    
    I have heard of classical music buffs that can't bear to listen to any
    recorded music at all, because they think the quality is so bad. They
    instead read printed musical scores, and hear the music in their head. 
    
    Sometimes I'm glad I'm a slob!
    
    Tony                 

    RE. 47;
    
    � I have heard of classical music buffs that can't bear to listen to any
    � recorded music at all, because they think the quality is so bad. They
    � instead read printed musical scores, and hear the music in their head. 
    
    Maybe, if they want more bass, then they just print all the low notes
    in bold! ;-)

    
    
    I think some people are getting a bit carried away here...
    
    I would not touch the tone levels if i were listening to the music
    witha set of (very)good headphones, or sitting in a studio or room
    with very good or "perfect" acoustics...
    
    However, my flat in London and my flat in Munich both have very
    different sounds...different shape rooms, one has a carpet the other
    doesn't, etc, etc et bloody cetera.
    
    So i am not *really* a snobbish yuppy with just my CD player, i ALso
    need a toneless (:-)) amplifier !
    
    Stanley J
    
    I sense that this note is now down to purely personal taste...I LIKE
    ANNOYING NEIGHBOURS, and attracting admiring glances from passing
    pedestrians( who often ask me out, purely based on the volume and
    selction of my music) HA ! HA ! HA !
    

    A graphic equliser is a perfectly valid item of hifi [sic] equipment,
    particularly if coupled with a spectral analyser.
    
    However, I don't have one.
    
    Or want one.

    Re.50
    >> particularly if coupled with a spectral analyser.
   
    Sounds like sommat outta Ghostbusters if ya ask me.

    
    Hang on, I am not at all into dishing out personal jibes at anyone!
    
    Sorry, it was NOT what I intended to say, perhaps I just did not
    say it right. 
    
    All I ment was that an artist takes time over the making of a piece
    of music, and gets it to sound how he/she feels it *Should* be put
    across. You are missing out on the artistic interpretation the person
    making the recording intended.  
    
    However, I shall consede that if all you want to do is listen to
    the record, then fine, spectrum analyse away. If you want to listen
    to the Music, then try understanding the original interpretation.
    
    Besides, your ears *are* diferent to mine, but the point remains
    that the music itself and each instruments part in the overall scheme
    is ruined by altering bass & treble sounds. See, music is dynamic.
    Sometimes the bass is ment to be quieter than others, and as I
    understand it, tone controls are just a way of destroying these
    dynamics.
    
    The choice is yours really, at the end of the day, listen to the
    record, or listen to the music, neither is right or wrong.
    
    There are NO personal attacks here, just my Ideas.
    
    juju
    xxxx
    
    

    Yep JUJU, I agree with that.  Personally, I always give my knob
    a twiddle when I want to really enjoy myself. (fnarr fnarr).
    
    Mikef

    re. 53, I see in your case, it would be a waste Mike.....
    
    Seriously back to the price frenzy, or was that fury ? 
    
    I just bought A copy Of Beethoven's 9th, and was appalled at the
    price tag....
    
    � 8.49 for a single album. 
    
    Juju
    xxxx
    

    I have a series of symphonies by Beethoven conducted by Toscannini,
    however they're so old they're 78s so I can't play them on my turntable.