Conference marvin::uk_music

    heavy metal, like any other music style, has a place on the music seen
    like any other. Like others of styles of music, people dislike it. 
    
    I dislike heavy metal, because to me it sounds like a load of
    uncoordinated noise, where the main aim is to put as much HZ out as
    possible. 
    
>    	So cut the H_M bashing, 'coz it doesn't deserve to be bashed.

    I'm not bashing heavy metal. I'm just saying I don't like. You like,
    you listen to it, your welcome to it.
    
    				Gru�
    					Mark (a REAL music fan)

    Shawn,
    
    My comment about GTIs is just as relevant as your comment on
    use/nonuse of drugs...like who gives a sh!t??? Besides did you
    NOT see the ':-)' and the end?
    
    My comments were in support of HM and I suggest as you being
    Co-Moderator of the HM conference get off your ass and do something
    about the fact that note 6.*(related conferences) in here has
    no reference to the Heavy Metal conference.!!! Shame on You ;-)
    
.0�                                           I can change my own oil,
.0�	and a slew of other mechanical duties.

    You OL' HEADBANGER You...
    
    - Dave K. 

    
    	Shawn,
    
    	If you'll notice, the note in question, was for songs/groups
    	people found annoying, and until I mentioned HM there had been
    	86 (yes 86) replies 'slagging' various artistes/styles, so
    	I don't think you can say HM was being picked on unfairly.
    
    	Yes I know people have the impression on HM fans being young,
    	leather/demin clad, long-haired simpletons who live and breathe
    	HM (and I'm afraid some of the later replies did little to
    	contradict this opinion) but I'm sure you're not ALL 
    	like that (arf arf).
    
    	So I hardly think you can accuse people of just picking on 
    	HM because of this, I have a younger brother who was a HM
    	fan (he's grown out of it now, he's into George Thorogood
    	/Georgia Satellites AC/DC) so I got to listen to a bit more 
    	than I really would have preferred (arf arf).	

        I also 'am into' a wide range of music, but fortunately/
    	unfortunately not 'generic' HM.
    
    	But it's nice to see so many new faces in UK_MUSIC, welcome
    	aboard.
    
    
    	Doug.

    I listen to EVERYTHING. (except george michael, but I still respect
    his musical abilities).  Many (not all) of the musicians involved
    in heavy metal music are definatly among the best in the world.(as
    said in 174.107?)
    
    Lyricly, a lot of heavy metal is brilliant!  These aren't just words
    thrown down on a piece of paper, it's true poetry. Metallica,
    Queensryche, Rush and many others are simply incredible, IMO.
    
    Very often I go to Heavy Metal concerts with my friends father.
    He is the Vice-President of a Fortune 500 company.  He loves his
    heavy metal!
    
    Long live heavy metal (and everything else!)
    
    Steve O
    

    Well at least we get an Official Notes file to discuss the subject
    properly but what a way to get it.
    
    Chequer and Chisholm type in their hates in the proper place, and
    some other juvenile up starts get offended, OH how sad. I did'nt
    notice them getting upset about other hates mentioned in the same
    notes file. Further more they have the cheek to tell others to grow
    up. What a state of affairs.
    
    Perhaps they have a headache.  Too much Heavy Metal perhaps...
    
    Mike Morris
    
    

    
    	   I have just a few comments to toss into the fray, then
    	I'll back out quietly (uncharacteristic for me, to say the
    	least).
    
    		* Anyone who thinks that The Beastie Boys produce
    		  Heavy Metal has no concept of what Heavy Metal is.
    
    		* Anyone who claims to dislike Heavy Metal in one breath,
    		  then extolls the virtues of Led Zepplin in the next
    		  has succeeded in contradicting themself between breaths.
    
	   As an aside (since the HATE note was so thoughtfully 
    	write-locked by your ever-watchful moderator), if you want
    	a song you can REALLY hate, why not listen to "We Like Da Cars,
    	Da Cars Dat Go Boom".  For the life of me, I cannot understand
    	how such a BAD song ever made it to vinyl (let alone the radio).
    	Perhaps you in the U.K. have not been exposed to this 'gem'
    	yet... count yourselves lucky.
    
    	-=[MOSAT]=-
    	(aka Greg Davis, All-American Hard-Rocker)

    Well its great to be back...Its been a while since I got on the
    o'l HEAVY_METAL file and now within 2 min Im on UK_Music. "OK"
      well Good morning to all Uk_and of course my fellow Metalist
               now my comment......
    What the Hell started all this ....?
    I mean for us to come on this notes file it must be something,
    all I know is that HEAVY METAL is not a favorite "TO_SOME"
    in the UK, Fine what do I care if they like it or not,
    B U T ....
    when some low mind individual"S" say in simple words "HEAVY METAL
    sux, well thats another story. I have been a musician for 12 yrs.
    Im 22 and I played all types of styles in music,,still do in fact,
      Its true you all have the freedom of speech...but there is another
    law DEFLIMATION OF character that I must say,there has been ONE
    TO MANY INSULTS thrown at one anothe.
       My Opinion to all No Heavy Metalist in the UK and to whoever
    is monitoring this. 
    Heavy metal is my enjoyment I would be just as low as you if I insult
    your music so I may not....THE music will not fade out,It will be
    around for along long time.
    SABBATH ..."Not the holiday, BLACK SABBATH is a all time great from
    the  late 60's  so compare that band with "MEN AT WORK" and we have
    no more to say.......
                                thanx,
                                 JIM..TAMA
    from_a_devoted_fan_of_many_years_of_HEAVY_METAL_I- thank you all.......
                    You mess with the best you die like the resy HM>RULZ

    re -1   I couldn't agree more. Let's not bring back the inquisition.
    
        I'm sure most of you would like some HM if you gave it a chance.
    Lets not generalizations from misconceptions. 
    
    BTW, what is real music??? I, not being a experienced enough to
    know what real music is would certainly like to draw from your vast
    musical expertise to find the true meaning of music.
    
    
    Jesse "devil dog" Hernandez  

    Heavy metal fans are very sensitive! A couple of derogatory notes has
    created more effect than kicking a wasps nest. 

    Why are metal fans so paranoid? Are they really being persecuted, or do
    they just like to think so?
    
    Rod

    Maybe I have not heard enough Heavy Metal, but to me the HM bands
    of yesteryear seemed to offer a much higher quality of music than
    most of the more recent bands. By all means HM fans look for energy
    but it seems these days thats all they get. Perhaps its not the
    fault of the musician's, more of the writers.
    
    Another point mentioned somewhere was that HM is not only about
    music. The HM cult perhaps was what the replier was referring to.
    
    The long haried, bearded hippies, mixing with long haired, bearded
    bikers, mixing with drug addicts at a HM concert, jumping up and
    down, and stumping uncontrollably to the music, interupted only
    to draw on a joint passed from the guy next to them. I'm told this
    is what it's like. Is it ? 
    
    M.M.
    

    
    naw,  we just like to rumble ;-)

    
    	re .7
    
>            all I know is that HEAVY METAL is not a favorite "TO_SOME"
>    in the UK, Fine what do I care if they like it or not,
>    B U T ....
>    when some low mind individual"S" say in simple words "HEAVY METAL
>    sux, well thats another story. I have been a musician for 12 yrs.
>    Im 22 and I played all types of styles in music,,still do in fact,
>      Its true you all have the freedom of speech...but there is another
>    law DEFLIMATION OF character that I must say,there has been ONE
>    TO MANY INSULTS thrown at one anothe.

	What does where we come from have to do with it, there are many
    	HM fans in the UK, and many NON_HM fans in the USA???
    
    	Who said "HEAVY METAL sux"???? nobody!
    
    	Too many insults, yeah and mostly from those defending HM!!
    
    	Doug.
    
    	re .10 Paranoia,
    
    	yeah I wondered about that too, the initial notes about
    	HM were MUCH less vitriolic than those about Rick (sigh) Astley??

I'm gonna try and convert this into a discussion, rather than just a 
trading of insults here.

re: a couple back about the makeup of HM crowds

This sort of depends upon the band. My only experience is here in the
U.S., so what I say may not be totally true for the U.K. also. 

It seems that some of the very hardcore HM bands (Metallica, Judas 
Priest, Anthrax, etc.) do draw a mostly young, white, male crowd to 
their shows. These boys seem to dress according to a 'code', which
usually implies dungarees and t-shirts and/or leather apparrel.

But the majority of the HM bands out there today, especially the 
pop/metal bands (like Def Leppard and Bon Jovi and Poison) attract
an audience that is made up in a large percentage of young females
[who also seem to have a 'code' of dress - WOW! 8^) ]. 

These pop bands tend to rely more on melody and songwriting than volume 
and speed to get their musical message across. I think most non-metallers
would find these badns to their liking much easier than jumping in
and listening to Anthrax!

Hevy Metal is very different than even just a few years ago. Gone are most
of the sludge, blues lines (ala Iron Butterfly), and here today are
newer, younger bands with a sense of pop melody and harmonies. Is it all
good? IMO, no - some of it is trash, others are great! But, with the
amount of record amd ticket sales, and the overall popularity, HM
can't just be shrugged off like it has been in the past.

Alan S.

    
    
    Set Flame/on
    
    
    
    	Re .14 and that other person who can't read in the "all time
    hates" note.
    
    
    
    	Chequer is *NOT* repeat *NOT*  GRUB !!! I AM  OK !!!!!!!
                                                     
    
    
    
    	Grub.....who also doesn't care too much for hm but can't be
    bothered to get in to a discussion with people who don't beleive
    that other people don't like their personal taste.
    
    
    
    	Believe it.

    
    
    	Re .17
    
    
     I don't think you did read the "HATES" notes regarding this whole
    hm thing, coz if you did, you would notice that i didn't enter any
    notes on the subject. For the reason i mentioned in my previous
    note. Also if you did read "HATES" you would know i'm not the person who
    who "uses that line".
     I wasn't "slagging", just pointing out that you were referring
    to the wrong person, which can be very dangerous in certain
    circumstances.
    
    
    
    	Grub......
    addressing, 

    
    	re .18
    
    	Nope you've still got the wrong person, not doing too well are
    	we, I've been in HEAVY_METAL, fighting tooth and nail.
    
    	Once and for all I did not use the phrase "A REAL  music fan"
    
    	And if you want to address the question to me anyway, it'll
    	have to wait till ramorra, cause I'm going out now.
    
    	Doug.

    Dear .21
    
    It would appear that you simply *DONOT* read what people write. Also
    comments like "but you are the one I am looking for.  I went back to
    look you up in Hate." simply donot conform to noting etiquette. 
    
    If your quest is for the person who said/typed "A REAL music fan" then
    it was I. If you want an explanation, then read the various notes
    on the HM subject, if you are still "confused" then ask again and
    I will try and enlighten you.
    
    				Gru�
    					Mark(A REAL music fan)

	Mark (Grub?) et al,

		 I too am a *REAL* music fan, and I include in that Hawkwind,
	Rush, Cinderalla, Candlemass, AC/DC, Sabbath and many others.

	 What are you referring to ??? (and if Ghastley Rick I'll screeeeeeam!)


					Hippy
				(aka Graham - to avoid confusion)

    re .10
    
    One of the things that appeals to me the most about Heavy Metal
    is the fact that THE MUSICIANS *ARE* THE WRITERS!!!!
    
    This is in sharp contrast to many of the "pop" songs that are bought
    by artists from professional song writers.  Not to say that all
    pop stars don't write their own songs, It's just that I loose quickly
    all respect for those preformers who DON'T even write their own
    songs.
    
    Steve O

    
    	re .-1
    
    	Like for example Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, you mean??
    
    	Doug (Spurtle)

    I don't know if they wrote their songs or not, But if they didn't,
    then, IMO, they don't deserve the recognision (sp) that they got.

    Sorry, Pal, but that IS rubbish! What about cover versions?? Now
    you're being just as closed minded as those that started the 
    'HM is crap' argument.
    
    
    Tony

    re .27
    Cover songs can be a fuzzy area.  They can be a cop out to avoid
    writing your own songs. Or they can be done to persue a new approach
    to an existing song.
    
    I can think of almost no band that didn't play all cover songs when
    they got started (at least as new musicians in the music field).
    
    I can make this analogy to this song writing issue.  Would you go
    buy a piece of art, hang it on your wall, and then lead everyone
    to believe that you had painted it?
    
    Steve O

>    < Note 227.28 by EUCLID::OWEN "Lost on the silent planet" >          
>                              -< cover tunes.... >-
>
>    re .27
>    Cover songs can be a fuzzy area.  They can be a cop out to avoid
>    writing your own songs. Or they can be done to persue a new approach
>    to an existing song.
    
    Why is not writing your own songs a cop out?? Some people can write
    good songs; some can perform them well; some can do both. The most
    important thing is that the end result SOUNDS GOOD.
    
    You want an example? Check out Meat Loafs excellent Bat Out Of Hell
    album. Good example of a great writer (Jim Steinman) and performer
    (Meat) working together.  Cop out??

    Also bear in mind that you are writing off in a stroke all the world's
    great Classical orchestras. They hardly ever write their own material.
    
>    I can make this analogy to this song writing issue.  Would you go
>    buy a piece of art, hang it on your wall, and then lead everyone
>    to believe that you had painted it?
>    
    
    I've not come across any cases of musicians passing off others work
    as their own. Its always clearly stated on the record label who
    wrote the songs. In fact its something you can be sued for.

    Do yourself a favour, put your prejudices away and open your ears.
    If it sounds good then praise the performer AND the writer AND the
    guy that engineered the recording. If they're all the same person
    or different people, so what??
    
    Tony KML

    
    re .29
    
    Not writing one's own material doesn't make one better or worse than
    any other performer, it simply shows one's weakness.
    
    Whether that weakness is important in how you appreciate the music
    is a matter of personal taste, and your opinion is no better than
    Mr. Owen's. Period.
    
    /prc
    
    

    Good, well you carry on exposing other peoples weaknesses,
    I'll continue my quest for listening to the best music I can
    by not limiting my choice on the basis of irrelevant prejudices.
    
    By the way I never once claimed my opinions were worth more than
    anyone else's. The purpose of this notes file is for exchange of
    ideas and viewpoints. If you don't want to read mine then press
    'next reply' whenever my name appears at the top.
    
    Tony KML
    

    On the subject of writing songs and in particular with HM songs,
    in most cases, as it appears to me, the song relies heavily on the
    improvisation of the performing artists. These days the subtlty
    in HM music seems to be at an all time low. The whole area of composing
    HM seems to be an art of the past. As Chequer pointed out earlier, in
    many cases the only objective seems to be to make as much noise
    as possible. Even the most ardent HM fan must be disappointed with
    this. Also the whole presentation of some groups really lacks
    originality these days. Long hair, leathers and all. Perhaps if
    the writing and performing talants were equal with GREATS of the
    past, and perhaps if changes in overall appearance were made, the
    following of this type of music would increase. I dont mean to say
    HM is garbage, but many of the bands lack the qualities, originality
    and talent that I look for. I ve seen many HM bands in the last
    year, Iron Maiden, Def Leppard, AC/DC and some other lesser known
    bands, but they all dressed almost identically, played very similar
    songs and conducted themselves on stage in a mimic fashion of legends
    of the past. Boring to say the least. If HM is to last until the
    end of the century it will need a fresh identity and an injection
    of talent, similar to the talent that created it in the 60's.
    
    Mike Morris
    
              

    
    
    re .32
    
    If you listen to the new Iron Maiden album, and then listen to the
    new Def Leppard album, and still think they play similar songs,
    there is something seriously wrong (and not with the albums).
    
    /prc

    Hi Guys,
    
    My name is Cindi (CJ).  I've been reading through these "arguments"
    for the past two days, and I was just wondering... O.K., some of
    you don't like heavy metal, that's cool, I like a variety of music
    from AC/DC to Led Zeppelin.  What is it that you guys over the pond
    listen to?  What music is popular over there?  Do you listen to
    what I would call POP metal, such as Def Leppard, and the Scorpions?
    What bands tour over there?  What do they play on the radio?
    Heavy Metal started with some great groups and it will always be
    around.  As for the image you guys have about us headbangers..
    I wear a leather jacket once in a while, but that's about it.
    Most of my clothing consists of dresses and skirts.. DECie attire!
    
    Cindi (CJ)
    
    Nice to meet you!  8^)!!!
    
    
    

    
    re 37.  ?????
    
    	There is a lot of GOOD writing in Metal now.  The new album
    from Metallica is great lyrically and the music creativity is much
    better than before.  With a band like that they get better with
    every album.  They slowed down a little to play Better music.  Some
    of the acoustical leadins are much better written and played better
    than in theyre prev albums.  
    
    	Iron Maidens new one Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is the same
    as always.  One has come to expect great writing from Iron Maiden
    and on this one they let no one down.
    
    	Anthrax has a new one out and again the lyrics are much more
    thought out than before.
    
    	There are several bands out there that had killer first release
    albums and the second should beat the first.  Example..Tesla their
    first album is killer and I can't wait for their second cause, based
    on their first, it should be great.
    
    	To sum it up.  There are still a lot of great writers and it's
    not that they're dissapearing or their numbers are shrinking no,
    what's happening is that there are more and more crap bands flooding
    the scene and they out number the REALLY good and talented bands.
    
    Just an opinion
    
    Bk
    

    There are many good bands out there,And there are many "BANDS you
    may not like" NOT THEY ARE BAD.."your opinion is you dont like them.
    thats fine....Some people do..OK,
    Now there are people who give reason for disliking them.....
    & There are people who just make it Known that "Well hey I dont
    like this group so I think they stink" "THEY ARE A BAD BAND"
        W R O N G  .......
    Thats why everyone is clubbing eachother on this notesfile.....
      So for the Joker who started this Good Luck because,ME Im gonna
    go back on my HM/Music/Drums file and stay the #&%^$ out of it....
          If you want to argue ...........
    
         C O M E   O N    U P    O N    H E A V Y    M E T A L   
                           F I L E 
                                          Jim..Tama
    Tama_man_say_heavy_metal_is_the_way____WITH GOOD REASON!

    re .39 BAD BAND: adj. IMO a band that has limited talent and is
    			into copying other bands style just because
                        it is sucessful.  A bad band is NOT bad just
    			cause I don't like them.  I was speaking on
    			a level of talent and creativity and musical
    			quality.
    
    ok??
    
    Bk
    
    

    RE a few back... le'fem HM fan

    The type of HM we get in Europe is more than likely the same as you
    listen to in the states. Although there is a big difference that us
    Euro's miss out on. America has very specialised radio stations, where
    as, in Europe (especially Britain) radio stations tend to deal with the
    more general type programs, that appeal to a general public. 
    
    Therefore if you really like a particular type of music you have to
    wait for a special program/presenter(DJ). 
    
    I wear a leather jacket, but I'm not a HM fan.
    

    				Gru�
    					Mark (A REAL music fan) :-)

    
    re .41
    
    	The radio is very similar over here to what you have.  The music
    they play is mostly for a general group.  Not too heavy not too
    light.  And for the Heavy Metal shows we too have to wait for a
    special program...usually late Fri night.
    
    Bk
    
    ps I got a leather jacket too.... 8^)
    
    

    re.41
    
    Hey Marc,  I love all kinds of music.  As for the radio Bri's got
    it explained pretty well.  The stations that we listen to mostly
    play popular rock, some metal, little heavy metal, and POP. I don't listen
    to the radio much, I just buy albums and listen to them.  
    The reason everyone is so defensive about their HM music is because people
    are trying to rate it like movies over here.  We should be able
    to listen to what we want, It's supposed to be a free country, pretty
    soon we'll be living like Russia if we don't fight for our rights. 
    I don't think anyone meant any harm.
    
    I was just wondering what it is that you listen to over there...
    The majority of the people here, I think, listen to rock, correct
    me if I'm wrong.  My favorite group happens to be LED ZEPPELIN,
    they were great and always will be.  Do you dislike them?  They
    and many other great bands were the founders of HM.  What bands
    play over there in concert?
    
    CJ
    
    

    
    
    In my opinion...(shouldn't have to put that, but from the reaction
                     of some earlier noters, I think it's a good idea)
    
    
    
    1.	I think it's a crime that so-called recording artists are happy
    	to plug away playing the same kind of music album after album,
    	year after year.  Especially when the sound has been around
    	for as long as HM.

    2.	I prefer music with a touch of finesse, immagination, flare, 
        interesting chord progressions, and most of all, innovation.  
        I've yet to hear an HM record that comes near any of these 
        categories.
    
    3. 	What's most worrying is that the whole HM 'movement' is hell
    	bent on self-preservation.  I hope by the year 2000 I'm listening
    	to something *totally* different from what I like today.  Are
    	all you HM fans happy at the prospect of clones of Whitesnake,
    	Dio etc in the year 2000??? 

    4.  S T Y L E  - maybe someone could enlighten me, but is there
    	some rule which dictates how these bands dress?  Can't think
    	of any other reason why they would all want to dress the same.

    5.  Why do vocalists persist on shouting instead of singing?  I'm
    	sure many of them really can sing.  Is it so that they can be
    	heard above the din?
    
    6.  Last - but not least - it's a rabble.
    

    
    Michael (also_a_REAL_music_fan)
    

    
    RE: .44
    
    	I could'nt agree more !
    
    	- Paul -

    Re. .44, I couldn't have said it better m'self, but I fully expect
    a barage of defenders to jump in with set/flame=on.  Pitiful ;-)

    
    RE .44
    
    	As far as style goes..it depends on who you listen to.  Bands
    like Metallica dont wear what the more "pop" bands like Bon Jovi
    or Cinderella (sp?)and Poison do.  And Anthrax don't wear what
    Metallica wears.  Like I said there are lots of bands out there
    that copy another bands style (of clothing and maybe music) cause
    it was popular.
    
    	Iron maiden..who get no airplay over here are one of the most
    popular bands around and they have a style all their own..clothing
    wise.
    
    	Metallica wear jeans and tee shirts when they play.  Anthrax
    wear anything from jeans to jams and tee shirts.
    
    
    	And as far as singing goes not all shout.  Bruce Dickenson from
    Iron Maiden can sing and has a good range.  As I said before it's
    who ya listen to.  
    
    	What kinds of music do you listen to.  You like finesse... 
    imagination...flare... did you ever hear Dee by Randy Rhodes?? 
    How about Paul Gilbert or Tony McAlpine..George Lynch to name a
    few.
    
    Bk
    who also likes finesse..imagination..and flare in his music.
    

A few comments re: .45 [I think it was .45 - I forget now...8^)]

re: stagnation

I agree - stagnation is boring! In the HM notesfile, we were just slagging
Bon Jovi for being so monotonous, and praising Judas Priest for 
expandang their sound with guitar synths.

re: interesting chord progressions

I also agree here - I'm pretty tired of the A-F-G chord progressions.
But you should listen to a band such as Metallica. Not for the light
of heart, I assure you , but musically very intelligent. Chord 
progression, time changes - all very original and non-repetitive.
It might be worth your time to try one of their albums.

re: dress and style

I know -it's sort of ridiculous. But in fact, a lot of the newer bands
are young and dress that style on or off stage. At least it is not
totally fake - it is their natural porsonality (silly as you may deem 
it). And HM is not alone - most types of music have styles of dress.
It is fairlyeasy t distinguish a pop vocalist from a country singer 
from a blues singer.

re: shouting instead of singing

Funny - there is an ongoing discussion in the HM notesfile about this right
now of vocal gymnastics over style. Nothing is resolved yet, however. 8^)

Alan S.

    Hey Guys,
    
    I'm still waiting for someone over the pond to tell me what it is
    that they like...  but no one has answered me.
    
    I'm just curious! 8^)!!!
    
    Cindi

Cindi,
    
    There are 227 notes in this file dedicated to the types of music
    that people like. But if you want an index of a few
    
    I personnal like :-
    
    THE THE (Current fav)        Genisis (While PG was around)
    Ian Dury                     Pat Metheny
    The Clash                    Hunters & Collectors
    Stranglers                   Pet shop boys (for some strange reason)
    The Mission                  Rolling Stones
    Soft Cell                    The who
    U2                           BILLY IDOL (Whipslash smile is a must)
    Simple Minds                 Big pig
    The Cure                     Elvis Costello

              .... the list just goes on and on    

    
					Gru�
    						Mark    

    RE: .49
    
    And here's a few of mine
    
    	Elvis Costello
    	Ian Dury
    	Squeeze
    	Dave Edmunds
    	Nick Lowe
    	Robbie Robertson (My favourite CD at present)
    
    Too many to list really.
    
    	- Paul -

    
    Not to start a fight or anything like that but what is real music.
    
    a)Is it technical
    B)Do you have to look like a nerd (Ala.Elvis Costello)8^)
    c)Is it catchy 
    d)I want to know
    
    					M
    					 B
    

    There is no such thing as real music as a entity. Real music is what
    YOU like.
    
    If you like the sound of a chimp, banging a couple of sticks on a milk
    bottle, then that's your REAL music. Like what you like, and don't let
    people tell you, you are wrong for doing so.
    
    				Gru�
    					Mark (A REAL music fan) 

    
    PS : Damm I forgot Squeeze.... how could I do that

    Reasons why people dislike HM:
    
    * Ultra-clich�d posing. Whitesnake videos are a prime example, right
    down to the thunderflashes and the girl in her undies.
    
    * Lyrics with the sensitivity of a steamroller (is there an HM band
    called that?). "She's a hard-lovin' woman, ooh yeah..." (crashing
    power-chord follows)
    
    * An impression that HM lovers are sexually-frustrated adolescent
    males, or even sexually-frustrated fully-grown males.
    
    * LP cover obsession with long-hair, pouting and/or cartoon violence
    
    * The "let's kick some ass!" mentality
    
    and so on. I don't think *all* these are *completely* true myself...
    
    There are definitely some bands who are shading into HM but remain
    original and exciting. The Cult were one, at least before their
    last album. But there seems to be a tendency for certain bands to
    start out interesting but gradually descend into the "let's kick ass"
    rut. Again, the Cult show this.
    
    And at the moment, there's the creepy obsession with Led Zep - Kingdom
    Come's "Get it on" was a frighteningly accurate Zep copy.
    
    Finally, I know of no moves here in the UK to x-rate HM music. Thank
    God, that would be just too stupid.
    
    Rod
    

    
    RE.44 & 45
    
    I first started taking any notice of HM in 1979 with the re-birth
    of the British HM (Iron Maiden, Saxon etc) This music has lead
    me to hear and appreciate more styles and influences in the modern
    music scene than I could possibly have achieved blinkering myself
    to top 40 pop hits.
    
    Call HM what ever you want, everybody is entitled to their own opinion,
    but don't ever accuse the bands of lacking the ability to play their
    instruments or write structured intelligent music. This is a totally
    narrow minded view and shows a lack of understanding of music in
    all.
    
    Don't get me wrong, there are many new HM bands that don't appeal
    to my tastes but that does not automatically mean I think they're rubbish.
    
    It's a shame, I'd love to sit all of you doubters down and play
    you the likes of Rush,Zappa,Zep...or that number on Dave Lee Roths
    latest offering - Good Times..... how can anyone accuse that of being
    bland or offensive, even my girlfriend likes it ;-)
     
    Well, that's my �0.02p worth, I hope you understand my point.
    
    Cheers
    
    Jez

    Another Yank's .02 cents worth (who wouldn't know a pound if it
    landed on his foot ...).  Heavy Metal music is mainly what I listen
    to.  The junk on the radio here is probably the same excrement you
    Brits hear so that's the reason tape decks were invented.  As far
    as other people liking MY kind of music, that's there business. 
    I probably don't like theirs either.  True, some HM is shouting,
    noisy rabble but somebody out there must like it or it would never
    have been pressed into vinyl right ?  You want pure talent ... give
    a listen to Racer X, Queensryche, Iron Maiden, or Yngwie Malmsteen.
    Maybe this may be a bit too intense .... try Def Leppard, Dokken,
    Tesla, or Great White.  Maybe you have to stand on the border of
    HM and Pop, try Europe, Poison, BonJovi, Van Halen (new), or Guns
    n' Roses.  So before anyone starts slamming Heavy Metal, they need
    to take a look at what all make it up.  It's not just mindless guitar
    assault in the key of F sharp, demon possesed lyrics, or leather
    and studs.  It's an attitude as well as a form of MUSIC ... and
    contrary to some people's beliefs it's "real" music too.  If you
    can't understand this then Heavy Metal isn't for you, don't give
    me any sh!t about it, and you may go back to listening to your
    radio now !                                                 
    
    			      Mr Scary II
                              
    		   (who's God given name is Jerry ...)

    RE:-2
    
    I don't think Frank Zappa can be "classed" as HM !!!!!
    
    Re References to *Top 40* :
    
    If you read this conference and any of the notes in this topic you
    would realise that there are very few hits in the Top 40 that the
    contributors actually like !!!!
    
    Why is it that HM is such a seperate grouping or style ??
                                                       
    Is it that the music is so fixed/stereotyped it's easy to class ??
    
    Is it that the "fans" are so fixed/stereotyped they are easy to
    class ?                                     
    
    Is it that the "fans" are sooooo entrenched in neanderthal tribal
    behaviour that they can be spotted a mile off !!!???
    
    Led Zep, Deep Purple, etc were *current* more than *ten* years ago,
    to continually worship them is going a bit over the top...i'm sure
    (hope) some of you will grow out of it soon !
    
    Indeed they were legends, but to mention them in the same breath
    as Iron Maidon or Anthrax is an insult to their work !!!
    
    Why are you all so uptight about this ???
    
    Has the music done some permanent damage to your brains...especially
    your sense of HUMOUR !!!!

    
    Re: 57
    
    I agree, he's not, but it's a style he can and has produced. Anouther
    example is the last couple of albums by The Cult. It's a style of
    music like anything else. Surely it's a plus point to them if they
    can turn it on or off.
    
    I think if you instantly write a band off simply because they work
    under the banner of HM you must have some pritty odd perceptions
    of the structure of music in general. Take for instance Led Zep,
    I've seen it mentioned all over this conference that they were
    among those responsible for the advent of HM. If you listen to any
    of their albums there are more styles of music on there than most 'pop'
    groups of the 80's would dare experiment with.
    
    Jez  

    re: .57
    
    You Brits are so cordial, at least you did qualify your reply with
    an appropriate title - you're right, you don't have any sense, about
    Heavy Metal anyway ..... let ol' Scary enlighten you.
    
    Zep and Purple were good in their day BUT those days are gone like
    one of Gramma's f*rts.  They didn't age gracefully.
    
    Most metalheads like metal but also like a lot of other types of
    music as well.  And here in the US, our top 40 is a lot heavier
    than yours, which may explain to a degree why we feel the way we
    do about it.  If I had to listen to ther UK top 40, I'd need a
    prescription for Dramamine or a puke bag (I don't understand your
    sh!t either).
    
    Iron Maiden is ALREADY a legend, as is Judas Priest, and VanHalen.
    You don't have to be washed up to be in the Hall Of Fame.  And it's
    usually people that have NO idea what Metal is really about that
    make all the negative noise.  Ignorance is a poor excuse I guess
    but a sinking ship finds refuge in any port I guess.  I suggest
    you taake a look into IRDEV::HEAVY_METAL and get a little perspective
    before you subject your digits to any more wear and tear concerning
    Heavy Metal.
    
    
    			Mr Scary II

    
    
 >    And here in the US, our top 40 is a lot heavier
 >   than yours, which may explain to a degree why we feel the way we
 >   do about it.  If I had to listen to ther UK top 40, I'd need a
 >   prescription for Dramamine or a puke bag (I don't understand your
 >   sh!t either).

    
    
    Has all that noise dulled your senses or what?
    Just because some of us think HM is a rabble doesn't mean we spend
    our time listening to the top 40.   Most of the stuff I'm listening
    to at the moment hasn't charted in yonks.
    
    
    e.g -		Hue & Cry
    			Steely Dan
    			Hipsway
    			Deacon Blue
    			Prince
    			Danny Wilson
    			Aztec Camera
    			Prefab Sprout
    			etc etc etc...
    
     Ignorance has nothing to do with it.  Some listen to HM, and some
     of us are a bit more discerning.  It's that simple.
    
    
    Michael
    
    
     Michael
    

    Iron Maiden, Judest Preist, and Van Halen are NOT legends at all.
    
    Van Halen is fairly good, Iron Maiden are bad, and Judest Preist
    are absolute rubbish.
    
    These groups may be lots of other things too, but none of them are
    anywhere near legends.
    
    Mike Morris
    

    re: .61
    
    You ended your reply quite correctly ... "It's that simple."  Quite
    simple (...minded) indeed.  You can teach a young dog new tricks,
    you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and you can't teach a stupid
    dog anything .... *sigh* .... I tried ....
    
    
    				Mr Scary II

    
    
    
    ..by that you mean this fab_new_wave_ultra_eighties sound of...
    
                      HEAVY METAL??????
    
    
    
    Good grief.

    
    p.s  - It's also an insult to dogs - I'm *sure* they're more discerning
           also.  :-)
    

    

    re: .62
    
    The least you could do since you evidently have no knowledge concerning
    the topic for this note is spell JUDAS PRIEST correctly !
    
    By the way, you probably wouldn't know a Heavy Metal legend if you woke
    up one morning and found it sleeping in your Culture Club pajamas.
    
    
    re: .64
    
    In reply to your p.s., that's probably what an American would do
    to your record collection .... p.s. all over it !
    
    
    			Mr Scary II
    

    
    	re .65 and your previous diatribes,
    
    	My we are a charming fellow, aren't we?
    
    	re .general
    
    	Why do all you HM defenders *assume* that just because we
    	don't go for it, we HM bashers have *never* listened to HM,
    	what *nonsense*.
    
    	It seems we are no longer welcome in the HM conference, so
    	perhaps you'd like to go back and discuss each others 
    	birthdays.
    
    	Doug (Spurtle)

    
        Someone mentioned songwriters awhile back - well:
    
        It's trivia time!!  One of Frank Sinatra's biggest hits,
        'My Way', was writen by Paul Anka.
    
        And since I forgot the content of most of the rest of the
        replies since .20, I think I'll take off for a while.
    
        8^)
    
                                                       Shawn GTI
    

    Buuuttt ... Sidney did it best.

    
    
>        In reply to your p.s., that's probably what an American would do
>        to your record collection .... p.s. all over it !

    
    
    Unlike HM fans, I don't feel angry when you scorn my musical
    preferences.  Just sympathy.

    
    Michael
    

    Can someone please explain why *most* HM fans always have
    to get so abusive when people don't agree with their choice
    in "music"???
    
    Mazzer
    
    

    re .71
    
    Believe me, If you don't want to listen to heavy metal, then we
    don't want you to.  I don't really care if you can't stand heavy
    metal, and I'm glad that there is music that you like and can
    appreciate.
    
    What erks us Metal music fans is this:  We feel that we have been
    backed into a corner by those of you who sit around saying how much
    heavy metal sucks and how stupid we are for liking it.
    
    All that we are trying to do is get you to understand that heavy
    metal is a form of music also.  Just like country western, classical,
    jazz, pop, new wave, punk, progressive, and many others.  We don't
    want you to change your musical tastes for us, just understand that
    we, as heavy metal fans, deserve to be treated like fans of any
    other music.  I personally don't care for Jazz music too much. 
    I do however understand that some people do, and that it wouldn't
    be right of me to knock jazz or the people who listen to it.  I
    think jazz is a really GREAT form of music.  I just don't often
    care to listen to it.
    
    We don't want to convert you to a headbanger, just for all of you
    to understand that Heavy Metal is a real form of music.  This doesn't
    mean that you have to listen to it or enjoy it, just have a little
    compasion for those of us who do.
    
    Steve O, who thinks Metallica is as brilliant as *SOME* classical.

    If I can attempt a 'non-controversial' reply 8^)
    
    Elsewhere in this file we discuss specific bands and their music.
    Its then fair enough for people to say 'I don't like XYZ' or whatever
    - thats just them expressing their opinion which is the purpose
    of this notes file.
    
    The difference with most of the HM slagging I've read is that the
    criticism seems to be applied universally to the genre, therefore
    covering a large number of bands in one go. Surely the HM slaggers
    can't have heard them all???

    No other form of music gets this treatment. EG I've never heard a folk
    music band that excited me; but I would be stupid to slag off folk
    music as a whole for the simple reason that I've not heard all the folk
    music there is to hear. Ditto classical, jazz, african, reggae, etc etc
    etc. 
    
    You can't argue against someone who says Iron Maiden are crap or
    Genesis are crap or Rick Astley is crap. Thats just their opinion
    and one persons opinion is no better or worse than anothers (as
    someone was so kind to remind us earlier 8^))
    
    However you *can* argue against someone who slags music of generically,
    eg so far in this conference we have heard:
    
    all HM is crap: You can only say this if you've heard all HM that
    exists.
    
    all music produced in the USA is crap : likewise, you can only say
    this if you've heard it all.
    
    all music thats not written by the band performing it is crap :
    ditto as above.
    
    Slagging something you've heard is a fair expression of opinion;
    
    slagging things you've never heard is prejudiced, unfair, insulting
    and at the end of the day only displays the ignorance of the person
    putting forward that view.
                                              
    
    But then.... thats only my opinion   8^) 8^) 8^)
    
    Tony KML (Not an HM fan, just someone who dislikes prejudice)

    
    	re .72
    
    	There you go again, will you *please* give pointers to
    	any note which states or implies that HM fans are stupid
    	for liking it???? also any note which says HM 'sucks'???
    	
    	(that should keep him out of trouble for a while)
    
    	re .73
    
    	When I say I don't like HM, I mean I don't like *most* of
    	the HM I hear. I also don't like C&W, and again mean *most*
    	of the C&W I hear.
    
    	I agree with the rest of your note though
    
    	Doug.

    Re; 72
    
    Thanks for the explanation Steve and it just goes to prove
    that not *all* HM fans are abusive :-)
    
    Re: 73
    
    I totally agree - I am not a HM fan but I respect the fact
    that others are.  However some HM fans (particularly in this 
    conference) don't seem to be able to face up to the fact that
    some people just don't like HM.  Infact they are just as prejudiced
    against other forms of music e.g. Dare I say it........
    Rick Astley :-) :-) Yes it is music but whether or not you like
    it is a personal thing!
    
    Anyway thats my 4p worth!!  
    
    Mazzer_going_underground_to_escape_the_I_hate_RA_mob:-):-)
    

    
    
    
    It's getting very difficult to find a note around here where ol'
    Rick doesn't get a mention!
    
    
    Michael
    
    
    P.S.  - what a performance on the POPs again last night!
    

    Rick

    I agree with .72
    
    But to add something....
    
    The noters who claim to like "REAL" music wonder why the heavy metal
    noters are so aggressive in their responses.  The key word here
    is "response".  The non-HM noters seem to be the ones on the offensive
    since the start of this discussion.  The HM people have been on
    the defensive.  In reading through the discussion, I haven't noticed
    many challenges/insults to other musical genres that other people
    may like.  So (if any of this makes sense), what do you non-HM fans
    expect? (if you couldn't tell yet, I'm a heavy metal/hard rock fan
    from way back).  When you get pushed, you usually push back harder.
    
    The groups listed a few notes ago (in response to the female HM
    fan's request) do for me what the HM groups seem to do for you non-HM
    fans.  IN MY OPINION, they all look/sound/act/dress/wear short spikey
    hair (oops, not all of them) and generally come across as bland
    and talentless.  TO ME!  But they're not!  They wouldn't be where
    they are if they didn't appeal to somebody.  Just like the HM bands
    wouldn't be where they are if they weren't liked by somebody.  
    
    In this world of ours there's no accounting for taste.  That's what
    makes life so interesting and enjoyable.  What's not enjoyable is
    the fact that people tend to STEREOTYPE and label things that don't
    fit with the way they see the world.  If you want an emotional
    discussion in one of these notes files just keep doing what you're
    doing.  You'll continue to get one, but you probably won't learn
    anything new.              
    
    BTW, I've never been a Neanderthal, have you?
    
    				the Bomb
    				(aka Ron Anderson, TWO , E&T Finance)
    
    ps.  I've found that the HM conference contains one of the most
         "civilized" goups of discussions of any of the notesfiles I've
         read.  They should all be as good.
    
    		
    

    A few replies back (can't remember which one) someone asked why
    the people in the HM conference chat about Birthdays and such.
    
    My answer:  Friends tend to do that sort of thing.
    
    Re -.1
    Thanks you!  
    
    Steve O

    

>        The groups listed a few notes ago (in response to the female HM
>    fan's request) do for me what the HM groups seem to do for you non-HM
>    fans.  IN MY OPINION, they all look/sound/act/dress/wear short spikey
>    hair (oops, not all of them) and generally come across as bland
>    and talentless. 
    
    
    
    I wouldn't have expected any other reaction from a HM fan.  But
    I'm still smiling!
    
    
>    If you want an emotional
>    discussion in one of these notes files just keep doing what you're
>    doing. 
 
    
    
    Love it!
    
    
    Michael   

    My thoughts exactly Steve.. 8^)!
              

    < Note 227.78 by PARITY::RANDERSON >
    >The noters who claim to like "REAL" music wonder why the heavy metal
    >noters are so aggressive in their responses.  The key word here
    >is "response".  The non-HM noters seem to be the ones on the offensive
    >since the start of this discussion.  The HM people have been on

    	NONSENSE!!
    
    >In reading through the discussion, I haven't noticed
    >many challenges/insults to other musical genres that other people
    >may like.
    
    see 174.0 - 174.86, 182.*, 202.* for a few examples, didn't try
    very hard did you??
    
    >ps.  I've found that the HM conference contains one of the most
    >     "civilized" goups of discussions of any of the notesfiles I've
    >     read.  They should all be as good.
    	
    	Sorry, can't let this go bye, so tell me them 'Bomb', who's
    	'Hunkette' of the month for October in HM then??
    
    	Doug (Spurtle)

    Let's keep thing relevant - OK????
    
    Keith

    do you mean things ?
    

    I think he does

	Well , I've tried to read all of the associated notes in this
	topic and the Heavy_Metal conference .

	I've had easier tasks .

	Most of what has been written is naturally very subjective .
	Heavy Metal fans *do* appear to get rather touchy if their favourite
	brand of music is not universally adored , but then so do Brosettes .

	The only thing written thus far with which I am in total disagreement
	is the use of the label 'Heavy Metal' when discussing Led Zeppelin .
	The apparent reason for this is that they were the 'founders' of
	todays style know as 'Heavy Metal' . This reasoning contains much
	of what many of todays balloons require to get off the ground .

	Hot air .

	I can well imagine Robert Plant visibly wincing if anybody called 
	his and Page's music 'Heavy Metal' . On the other hand , if it gets
	people buying their records , I suppose he can at least smile all 
	the way to the bank .

	Led Zeppelin used to play ROCK music . Some people wishing to
	distinguish it from other types , and given that it was somewhat
	'raunchier' , put 'hard' in front of it .

	The fact that todays Heavy Metal groups tend to leave their hair
	long and permed curly , bare their chests and strut around like
	peacocks on heat , does not make Led Zeppelin Heavy Metal .

	It would appear that HM fans like to associate Hendrix and Led Zep
	with HM to give it some form of respectability within the music
	industry . They know full well that the majority consider HM to be
	toneless noise , consisting of musicians who think that if they play
	loud and furiously , it will make up for their lack of talent .

	Having said that , I must say that it doesn't matter how they sound
	or what they look like . If people enjoy what they see and hear ,
	and it doesn't break any laws , then they should be allowed to .

	Just because we can't understand what it is that they enjoy does not
	make it any the less 'music' .

	If enough people enjoy listening to one man thumping his hand on
	a table for 2 hours , then someone is going to organize a concert .
	He may then decide to make a record , and given todays selling hype ,
	a number of people will probably buy it .
	Then we'll see a number of 'copy-cats' , all doing the same thing ,
	in the same outfit , playing to the same people .

	It will be called 'Hand Banging' , which will upset quite a few
	moralists , and people will buy more records because it's new 
	and anti-establishment and easy to learn .

	But just remember . It's only a man banging the crap out a table .

	Heavy Metal just uses different instruments .

	People should not take this as a slagging off , because *I* do 
	like *some* Heavy Metal . But it shouldn't be raised above what
	it essentially is .

	John J       

     
     > It would appear that HM fans like to associate Hendrix and Led Zep
     > with HM to give it some form of respectability within the music
     > industry .
    
     Seconded !!.
    
     Why all this childish slagging off ?  MY Dads' bigger that your Dad....
     
     I'll listen to anything. If I like it I like it, if I don't I don't.
     But I find I always return to good solid ORIGINAL rock music, such
     as mentioned in -1 (Zep etc..).
                        
    
     Gary @ RDL a_HARD_Rock_fan
              
    

        Tony KML:
    
    		I think you're the one that's coming to understand
    		our point the best (unless everyone else is just not
    		saying so) - heavy_metal covers a wide variety of
    		bands ranging from pop_metal to speed_metal to thrash_
    		metal to 'glitter_metal'.  So it's unfair to say that
    		you hate H_M because there is a good chance that there
    		is SOMETHING you'd like.
    
        John J:
    
    		I see your reply as unfair.  You can't call metallists
    		untalented 'coz you're wrong.  This doesn't even come
    		under opinion, due to the fact that H_M musicians are
    		some of the most talented musicians around.  You don't
    		hafta play fast to be good in H_M, but if you can do
    		both well then that's a plus.  Look at Joe Satriani:
    		don't know how familiar you are with his stuff, but
    		he recently put out an album called "Surfin' With the
    		Alien".  Some would argue that this isn't H_M, but I
    		believe that he's definitely got some H_M influence
    		to put out an album sounding the way it does.  He can
    		play fast without missing notes (which is noticeably
    		the case in some instances where guitarists play fast
    		and the notes don't come out 'separately' from the
    		next ... becomes jumbled with the previous note), and
    		the stuff is definitely harder than alot of stuff. 
    		He plays all the instruments himself (with the except-
    		ion of the bass) - how can he not be talented?
    
        Doug C.:
    
    		I fail to see the relevance of a 'Hunkettes' topic
    		in H_M ... what does this hafta do with the discuss-
    		ion?
    
    		Yes, we have 'discussion' and 'list' topics like:
    
    		1)  Hunkettes
    		2)  Hunks (for the females ... all 3 of them) 8^)
    		3)  Birthday note
    		4)  Miscellaneous ... variety of discussions
    
    		in H_M.  These topics are to get away from H_M for
    		awhile and just 'chat' with the rest of the metal-
    		lists.  While I don't agree with a few of the topics
    		as being proper for a H_M conference, there's not
    		much I care or want to do with them due to the fact
    		that I'm just a co-moderator and not the owner of the
    		disk which provides the home for H_M.  If JC wishes
    		to "Give 'Em the Axe" (Lizzie Borden) then it's up
    		to him.  But for now, IDGAF.
    
        And I agree that a couple of us got a little riled about the
        whole thing, the rest (95%?) have been quite rational and open-
    	minded about ideas from both sides.
    
    	And, again - I don't remember any more points that I wanted
    	to discuss ... so bye for now.  8^)
                                                       GTI

    Whoa !  Shawn !! I don't think I've ever seen you so long winded!

    Anyhow... I just caught up on the past 35 replies, so I too have
    a lot to say.
    
    1.
    
    RE: .68 "Sidney Did "My Way better..."
    Your right!   You ought to check out the movie...

    Whilst we're on the subject, I've noticed something I think I'll
    bring to light.  
    
    When I was up in Mass (I'm in South Carolina now) I played in three
    different "British Copy Bands"...About everything I learned to play on
    the guitar was British.  I can't help but notice the new_wave/punk
    -/alternative swing of this conference.  Most of the stuff that
    I played, most of you would love.  The Jam, 999, The Buzzcocks,
    The Freshies, Sid, Black Flag...on and on and on...I still enjoy
    listening to this stuff, but the reason I quit was there was absolutely
    no challenge in it at all.
    
    ; A challenge to all new_wavers/punkers/alternator(?)  ;^)
    
    I'll send any guitarist from a metal band (except CC Deville of
    Poison) to GB to jam with any punk band.  I promise they will pick
    that stuff up on the third bar.  Further, I'd like to see any guitar
    player from *any* new_wave/punk type band come jam with Tesla, or
    Iron Maiden or even Poison !
    
    'Nuff said.  I don't think it could be done.  I'm no great guitarist,
    but I fail to see how any new-waver can say that metal-craniumed
    head banger type musicians have no talent when all the tunes (about
    60) that I learned up in N.E. were about all the same musically.
    I think we formed up a band in about 6 weeks with 3 sets of material,
    and were performing.  It might take six weeks to learn one tune
    from Maiden or Metalica.
    
    Anyhow, I gave up that 'brand' of music cuz I like the sound of
    my guitar loud and distorted.
    
    Oh yeah... HEAD BANGERS !  Don't be telling these folks about
    Metallica, Anthrax, Motorhead, Racer X and such stuff !  They won't 
    be ready for that !  *I'm* not ready for Anthrax (right Pete ?) !  
    
    On the other hand, I got turned on to metal by listening to Dokken
    and and other *mellow* metal.  Now, after some break-in time, I
    love the hell out of Iron Maiden, when two years ago, I wouldn't
    even have given them a second thought...
    
    Good pointer to Satriani.  He's incredible !

    Anyhow, I find it very interesting to see the discussion of cultures
    here, because that's about all it is.  I mean before my punk frenzy
    on guitar, I was Grateful Dead all the way !  That was the culture
    I was reared in, ya know ?
    
    Live long and prosper...
    
    /jc

	Re .88

>    		I see your reply as unfair.  You can't call metallists
>    		untalented 'coz you're wrong.  This doesn't even come
>    		under opinion, due to the fact that H_M musicians are
>    		some of the most talented musicians around.  You don't

	Very objective . 

>    		Alien".  Some would argue that this isn't H_M, but I
>    		believe that he's definitely got some H_M influence

	So , to link Heavy Metal with talent , you use for an example
	a person whose music has 'got some H_M influence' .

	And you call this proof .

	It's just barely relevant .

	This is another example of 'I like it , so it must be good' .
	Popularity does not talent make .

	Lennon and McCartney wrote some of the best loved music this
	century , but you wouldn't call them brilliant musicians . 
	Exceptionally talented 'songwriters' perhaps , but there was
	nothing special about their musicianship .
	Same for George Gershwin , Cole Porter and Rodgers and Hammerstein .

	Do you think that Heavy Metal 'tunes' will live much further than
	the sell-by date ....................... I doubt it .


	I do wonder where you get your 'History of Heavy Metal' from .
	Just because some groups influenced others to take their music
	a stage further , or possibly in a slightly different direction ,
	does not justify retrospectively re-labeling these groups .
	I do not remember Uriah Heep being called Heavy Metal when they
	first appeared on the scene , or for that matter , Motorhead .
	Back then they were slightly different , and they had far more
	charisma . People grew to calling their music 'Heavy Rock' .
	A few years later , add some Rod Stewart tights , a Masters
	of the Universe shirt  , and the late seventies fashionable perm
	and you have 'Heavy Metal' .

	The music may be a little more frantic now , and better production's
	given it a clearer sound , but extra talent ?


	BTW , did you know that many Germans took Bad News seriously ?

	Shows the difference .
                              
	John J
    

re: .90

>    		Alien".  Some would argue that this isn't H_M, but I
>    		believe that he's definitely got some H_M influence

>	So , to link Heavy Metal with talent , you use for an example
>	a person whose music has 'got some H_M influence' .

Why do you insist on quoting this, and making such a silly assumption. In
the last 10 or so replies alone, HM bands such as Iron Maiden, Dokken, 
Metallica, Tesla, and many other have been mentioned as examples of
what to check out if you want to hear technically talented musicians.

>	Lennon and McCartney wrote some of the best loved music this
>	century , but you wouldn't call them brilliant musicians . 
>	Exceptionally talented 'songwriters' perhaps , but there was
>	nothing special about their musicianship .

Lennon and McCartney were and are brilliant musicians! Being a good
musician has nothing to do with how fast you play or whether you hit
every note - it has to do with many things, of which technical ability 
is only one small part!

>	I do not remember Uriah Heep being called Heavy Metal when they
>	first appeared on the scene , or for that matter , Motorhead .
>	Back then they were slightly different , and they had far more
>	charisma . People grew to calling their music 'Heavy Rock' .
>	A few years later , add some Rod Stewart tights , a Masters
>	of the Universe shirt  , and the late seventies fashionable perm
>	and you have 'Heavy Metal' .

Heavy Metal is heavy metal - it is a term which has many genres. From
Cream, Led Zep, Blue Cheer, and MC5 to newer bands like Tesla and
Metallica to pop bands like Bon Jovi and Poison. All of these bands,
and many more, have been labelled as 'Heavy Metal' by fans, critics, 
press, and record companies. Whether *you* think they are or not doesn't
seem important, does it?

I have tried very hard in my previous replies to keep this on track, and
discussing music and not personal opinion. But John J.'s reply in .90
bothered me so much I felt compelled to respond. My apologies to all who
hate to see ratholes like this.

Alan S.

    
    My turn
    
    re.86,87
    >It would appear that HM fans like to associate Hendrix and Zepplin
    >with HM to give it some form of respectability.
    
    Now why would we do that when we have enough respectable musicians
    that make the Hendrix and Zep sound old and tired such as
    
     Steve Via			Randy Rhoads
     Jason Becker		Marty Freidman
     Billy Sheehan		Geoff Tate
     Steve Harris 		Ronnie Lee Terko
     Greg Howe			Vinnie Moore
     Yngwie Malmsteen		Paul Gilbert
     Eddie Van Halen		Alex Van Halen
     Joey Dimiao		Rob Halford
     
     and the list goes on and on.
    
    				M
    				 B

    
    Strike off Randy Rhoads from the list.  He is dead, God rest 
    his soul.

    HM musicians are no better or worse than any other musician. Speed or
    Thrash may well be played fast, but that does not make the musician
    talented. 
    
    There will be musicians that standout as being obviously accomplished
    musicians, but that is a generic thing. As these musicians will come
    from many different "groups" of which HM is but one. 

    I personally 'generally speaking' donot like HM. That means I do not
    like the style of music, it does not mean that the music is rubbish
    or anything like it, only that I donot like it. Having said that I do
    like some of SLAYER's stuff. 

        
	    				Gru�
	    					Mark 

    Re .93
    
>   So we are liars now as well as greasy haired yobs.
    
    Not entirely sure how you managed to insult yourself from a statement
    that implies that HM fans think that HM musicians are 'talented'
    by right of popularity .
    
    And the frequency with which you open a bottle of shampoo has
    absolutely nothing to do with this conference .
    
    John J

MB (et al) - 

Don't bother. This guy is obviously enjoying this worthless argument,
and already has his mind dead set against HM. He obviously will not
be persuaded by logical arguement, nor even acknowledge it. So don't
waste your time. Let him have his opinion. What do we care?

Alan S.

    
    For what it's worth..this constant name calling and the constant
    "tearing the other guys reply apart to make him look foolish" is
    getting very boring.
    
    I love Heavy metal..if you don't then so what..??  Go and listen
    to whatever floats your boat.  There has never been a requirement
    to listen to heavy metal and vise versa, there never has been a
    requirement to listen to "non" heavy metal.
    
    So who really cares what anyone listens to?  All I know is that
    while reading the same slop throught all these replies I had to
    fight off the urge to sleep.  This is getting very boring cause
    nothing NEW is being said.  All anyone is doing ..or rather all
    any one of us are doing is beating a dead horse.
    
    Why not drop the "well this is better because" and "well they aren't good
    because.."..because quite frankly it is soooooo boring.  It's quite
    obvious that neither side will ever win this little arguement..so
    forget about it.
    
    Bk
    
    _who wonders when someone will tear this apart-
    

    Re .102
    I'm not sure this is really an arguement , and for music lovers,
    not worthless . But you're right , I am enjoying it .
    But if we can stop this bickering , perhaps you can answer the question
    I asked several notes back :-
    
>    You expound the values of speed and accuracy one moment , and dismiss
>    them the next . So you tell me , exactly . What makes a talented
>    Heavy Metal musician ?
 
    John J   

    
    
    	A talented musician is in the eyes of the beholder, and then
    	you have critics who say what's good and who's good and so on,
    	well, in my opinion who ever invented the job "critic" is a
    	worthless person that can't get a real job! Every body has their
    	own opinion, so why should somebody get paid to to tell people
    	what one person thinks of it, no matter how much he knows about
    	the business or industry. I mean look at "NOTES" in general,
   	it's nothin' but opinions, but then you'll have somebody else
    	sayin' that their opinion is fact which came from a magazine
    	or somthing which in fact is somebody else's opinion! Does
    	this make any sense? :')
    
    	But what makes a talented musician is the public and the 
    	praise they have for that one person. Publicity makes a 
    	talented musician also but then again you could have a 
    	homeboy that doesn't want any part of that and yet he could
    	play circles around the top 10 guitarist today. So in ending
    	my babbling, no one thing makes a talented musician. 
    
    	except as we all know.............PRACTICE AND MORE PRACTICE!
    
    	Hollywood................I just came back from Babblonia! ;') 

    What makes a talented Heavy Metal musician ?  A number of things,
    just like any other musician.
    
    The subject of speed keeps coming up again and again.  Heavy Metal
    is the last frontier for personal originality.  And since most of
    the chords, scales, and progressions have been around for centuries,
    the next thing to conquer is how fast they are played.  In almost
    every aspect of life more = better.  I'm not saying that's always
    the case, but in HM, it's the rule rather than the exception.  
    
    Playing with feeling is another factor.  Metal is like the blues
    at mach 10.  Feelings are more intense and played with more aggresion
    than other forms of music.  That may explain why HM fans are so
    enthusiastic about their choice in music - they are very expressive
    people. 
    
    I've played drums/guitar for the past 17 years. And I've played
    everything from country to pop to blues to metal.  And I can tell
    you from experience NOTHING is more demanding on a musician, with
    the exception of classical (where a lot of HM has it's roots ..)
    than playing heavy metal.  It takes more practice to learn and stay
    on top of it than all the other forms of music combined.  I feel
    just about any HM musician could play pop or anything else MUCH
    easier than a pop musician could play metal.
    
    So don't let the "looks" fool you.  Einstien wasn't a snappy dresser
    either.  But everyone has their own opinion of talent.  Just thought
    I'd enlighten you to mine.
    
    
    			   - Scary -

    In response to those noters who are incapable of rational discussion,
    I have write-locked this topic.
    
    I may consider unlocking it later, but I will NOT entertain childish
    behaviour here.
    
    Any complaints or comments should be sent to me by mail, please.
    
    Keith