Conference 7.286::golf

    Betty,
    
    Nevada Bob's has them, so do most pro shops in NH, I think the price
    was some where in the 100-120 range, I personally would buy the Footjoy
    Dry joy spikes which have a 2 year gaurantee (I have a pair and love
    them) again they are about the same price as the Etonics, I paid 98 at
    Amherst CC.
    
    peter

  The Etonics have a lifetime garuntee against leakage.
  You MUST however still treat the leather as leather.

  Got mine at New England Golf Supply in Salem, NH ...$95 last
  season.

    RE: last two
    
    Hmmmmmmmmm!?  Less than $100, huh?  I cashed in my tournament winnings
    on a pair, so they didn't actually cost me anything, but the list price
    on the *Gortex* stabilizers was $165.  If y'all are finding prices that
    good, would you post some phone numbers for these shops?
    
    re: .2
    
    How should waterproof leather shoes be treated and conditioned?  I've
    gotten conflicting opinions from golf shops and I've just been too lazy
    to write the manufacturer.  Are you just supposed to use saddle soap
    and polish?
    
    Thanks in advance....
    
    Steve

    >If y'all are finding prices that
    >good, would you post some phone numbers for these shops?

    Don't have the number handy for NE Golf Supply, but it should be available
    using directory assistance.  I may have gotten mine during a 10% sale.
    Can't remember.

>    How should waterproof leather shoes be treated and conditioned?  I've
>    gotten conflicting opinions from golf shops and I've just been too lazy
>    to write the manufacturer.  Are you just supposed to use saddle soap
>    and polish?

     The Etonic is a leather shoe with a Gortex "bootie" attached inside.
     Even if the leather portion cracked and leaked, your foot would not
     get wet and the garuntee would be satisfied.

     Use whatever method has given you success when waterproofing other
     leather boots or shoes.   I use a couple of applications of silcone
     based spray and then polish.  Works good for me.  I also use this
     method on my Timberland boots (per their instructions).

     The Etonics kept my feet dry all last season.

 Mark

    2,3,4
    Peter, Steve, and Casey thanks for all your replies.
    
    I ordered a pair of Etonic 100% waterproof shoes from
    Nevada Bobs last Oct as they didn't make them for women
    till then.  Well, they never came in and they ordered
    them again in Jan for me.  Looks like Etonic doesn't
    want Nevada Bob's business and still didn't fill the 
    order.   They (N.V.) suggested I look elsewhere.  They 
    checked the Etonic catalogue for me and told me they 
    would cost approx 100.00, which I don't mind, but I 
    would like to get them before the end of March.
    
    Any more suggestions?
    Thanks 
    Betty
    

    Betty,
    
      There's a new golf shop in Chelsea, "Golf Day"
    in fact were at the Bayside "Golf Expo" this week end and
    they undercut EVERYTHING. In fact ,they had the busiest booth
    there.
    
                  Dry-Joys, slightly imperfect were going for 
    $ 65, a normal $115-120 value.
    
    Forget Etonic, go with Dry-Joys ,the shoes of "champions".
                   Ang
    

    Ang, thanks, I'll see if my husband will take a ride
    to Chelsea.  
    Betty
    

    
    
    Geee...  I wear Dry Joys... and I even eat my Wheaties...   the
    only think I've Championed is   crastination 
    
    	I'm a PRO at it    get it?  
    
    
    	Don't throw anything ;)
    
    
    	Walta

    Hey,
    
    Did you guys (and gals)know that you are now behind the times.  Saw
    the latest Reebok add with "The Shark" this weekend.  Now we too can 
    pump it up. Should we pump up before tee shots or putts?  One pump or 
    two.  Just when I thought I had the answers to my golf game...maybe next 
    we get the Hi-Top Air Jordans so we can get more lift on our hi-fives 
    after sinking a long one. Wonder if we can pump our shoes up enough to
    allow us to walk on water.  No need for Dry Joys then.
    
    SoCalDandy (6 inches of rain in 48 hours and loving it)

    Pump it up- Wouldn't that improve ones stance if in a hazard!

    Good Point-
    
    You know they made the shoes which have slanted bottoms to distribute
    your weight, I think they are called Weight-Rite, illegal after the pro
    who endorses them won a tournament.  Something to do with building a
    stance.  I wonder if Reebok's will go the same way?
    
    This reminds me of another, but related subject.  I have a real peeve
    about" Holier than thous" calling in to report some percieved infraction
    and having it cost a golfer strokes or a tournament - ala The Walrus
    and recently The Zinger.  No other sport has retroactive video tape
    review.  The pros have marshalls as well as themselves to do the
    policing.  TV viewers should mind their own business, and the PGA
    should legislate to keep golf from becoming another NFL with instant
    replays etc.  I for one can't understand why someone watching the sport
    would want to call up and effect the outcome of a match.  
    
    Even the announcers this last weekend had some strong comments about
    this misuse of technology.  Anyone else have an opinion.
    
    SoCalDandy
     

    
    re. -1
    
    I have an opinion, but you already said it for me! 
    
    Joe

    
    Reply -1
    
    	HI SoCalDandy
    
    	What happened to the Zinger?
    
    	thanks Walta

     It is up to each golfer to police himself in accordance with the
    ruling body under which he competes. Failing this, it is up to his
    opponent or a resident official to voice an objection if a fraction of
    the rules is perceived. Period. 
     The way in which Azinger was penalized was bullshit. What's next -
    fans reviewing home videos of Pro football and calling in to point out
    offensive holding ?
     Azinger should have known better, because he was gaining an unfair
    advantage. However, if he did not know, his opponent and a resident PGA
    official didn't know or call it, it should have been a dead issue.
     There is no other sport where rules are so assiduously observed by
    individuals, but we'd all do well to simply follow the old Scottish
    axiom of not touching the ball "Through the green." I know, I know,
    what about paved roads, etc., etc., which are valid concerns. Still, if
    golfers stayed as close to this axiom as possible, there would be few,
    if any problems.
    
    --Jack 

    For those who do not know...Paul Azinger was standing with his right
    foot about ankle deep in water,  ball about two inches deep, his left
    foot on some rock or coral.  In preparing to hit his shot, he was
    focusing on the ball and trying to get comfortable with his stance, he
    raked his left foot across the rock/coral and dislodged several pieces,
    "thus improving or creating a stance".  It was viewed and reported by
    someone watching TV.  It was reviewed the next day by the PGA and
    Zinger was disqualified for having signed an incorrect score card since
    he did not penalize himself for moving some coral.  It was admitedly an
    inadvertant act, and not until review of the video tapes was this even
    thought to be an error. Not his playing partners, not the marshalls or
    officials saw this as an untoward action.
    
    SoCalDandy

    
    Hi,
    
    	Thanks for the info SoCalDandy...
    
    	What a rip-off ! I would think there should be some rule defining
    	a time period to call a penalty... like BEFORE the player signs
    	the score card? Obviously the Zinger would have taken the stroke
    	over being disqualified.
    
    	If I detect an infraction from last years Masters, will it become
    	in effect?
    
    
    	counting down the days in Mass,
    
    	Walta

     I agree, Walta ! I DO think, however, that if you're in a hazard you
    should be careful to avoid ANYTHINg that could be construed as an
    infraction. Azinger is a pro, and "Building a stance" is something all
    of them know about intimately. I think the Stadler "Towel" episode was
    much less of an infraction than this issue.
    
    --Jack

    
    RE. -1
    
    that's the whole issue (besides the phone-in offical). He wasn't
    building a stance, which he probably would have been awarw of. He
    was called for moving a loose impediment in a hazard, which he did
    unconsciously. Had he picked it up and moved it with his hand, then
    let the whipping being. But his brain didn't even know what his left
    foot was doing. It was not unfair, just unfortunate.
    
    Joe

Re: -.1

>    	What a rip-off ! I would think there should be some rule defining
>    	a time period to call a penalty... like BEFORE the player signs
>    	the score card? 

	The time limit is by the close of the competition.  Once the
	results are official that's it.

	I feel a little uncomfortable with TV viewer being able to be
	dial-in officials.  

	Larry

    
    SoCal "D"
     Agree... I watched and could not understand IF your going to
    get set, SOME stones are going to move, THE INTENT , 
    by Z , as far as I could see, was just to "set" for the shot
    the ball didn't move, and I know he's in a hazard , but think
    the golf rules avoid "INTENT"  as a ruling because it's so
    subjective, but the court of law  uses it.
          Were they Dry-Joys ??
                     Ang
    

                   Just to add my $.02 worth the phone-in-official
happens quite often in these tournaments. When they say a "FAN"
phoned in the rule or oversite,they mean "MANY FANS". If you've ever been
associated with a major tournament ( Pleasant Vally Classic) you'll
find that this kind of &(*&*(& goes on all the time. It happened either
last year or the year before to a pro that when they showed his lie
with the camera,they showed a closeup of his clubhead to the ball. As
he layed the club down the ball moved,he hit it thus making a bird. As
the story goes a "FAN" called in an he was penialized.
                  You'll find that watching PRO golf that it is the
"ONLY" sport that really goes by the rules,no matter who it is. The
problem may not be that the Z was unfortunate,but why have the cameras
do close-ups like they do.  I mean give me a break,when your in a club 
house with a bunch of golfers watching these tournaments what do you
think they look for? Not to make any money,they all sit around waiting to see
what mistake the guy will make so they can argue or call it in. T.V. if it
is going to be used for golf should be ENTERTAINMENT not a OFFFICIAL VIEWING
BOX! The close ups in some cases are good but in others such as Z's an company
it really isn't,(Unless it was so obvious even an marshal would see it). This
really takes a lot out of the game an puts the Pro on the spot,now he not
only has to worry about the course,rules,pressure,etc..but now an T.V.
FAN OFFICIAL!



  KILL THE "REAL" CLOSE UPS & T.V. OFFICIAL!
                marko    

    I was always taught to "dig your feet into the sand to get a 
    firm stance" when in sand traps...
    
    Now why does this not fit into the category of improving one's
    stance ?
    
    Jim
    

    Suprised to see the strength of opinion on this issue.  Couldn't tell
    if they were Dry Joys, maybe a computerized blow would help. Of course,
    if they were Dry Joys, I can imagine that they would have to pull their
    sponsorship  from Zinger because he is a "convicted" cheater. Bad for
    the corporate image - not cheating, mind you - getting caught.
    
    An interseting study of the caller-ins would probably find that a
    majority of them "manicure" or fudge on there handicap, don't play the
    ball where it lies, use mulligans and don't putt out all of the time. 
    
    
    SoCalDandy

    Jim-
    
    I believe that a sand trap is a specific type of hazard, namely sand. 
    I think you can move loose or foreign impedimants and are allowed a
    reasonable amount of shifting to get a stance.  To carry this to an
    extreme, you can't stack the sand up to get a more level stance.  In a
    water hazard or lateral hazard, you can't ground your club or move
    impediments(i believe).  Since I am so accurate as to have never been
    in a hazard...I am just hazarding a guess.....Anyone of lesser skill
    but more knowledge out there.
    
    SoCalDandy

    
    I don't see how they could make the call they did based soley on
    a "FAN" calling in.  Golf has to be the only sport in the world that
    does that.
    
    Could you just imagine a World Series Game being over turned because
    a fan calls in and says, "He was out!".
    
    They showed that replay over and over, and none of the guys doing the
    telecast made mention on it.
    
    Oh well, look for the camera the next time you wiggle your foot!
    
    Shane
    
    

    Jim & SoCal,
    
    	A hazard is a hazard wether it's water or sand  (Causual water not
    withstanding) and you may NOT move anything within the confines of the
    hazard.  This means stones, grass, divots, footprints and so on.  (You
    can ask another player to mark and move his/her ball if you're likely
    to hit when you take your shot.)  As for the stance, you are allowed to 
    take a stance, but you are not allowed to build a stance.  So when you
    "dig in" to the sand you are taking a stance, if you go too far you may
    not pile sand up to rebuild your stance.  I believe that Zinger was
    assesed a penalty for moving stones within the hazard with his foot. 
    He was not penalized for building a stance, but for moving something
    within the hazard.  As for grounding your club, again it doesn't matter
    if you are in sand or water, you can not ground your club.  A friend of
    mine was playing in his first pro tournament.  His ball was in a hazard
    (on grass but near the water within the red lines), he was standing
    there waiting for someone to hit and leaning on his club within the
    hazard.  He was assesed 2 strokes for grounding his club within the
    hazard.  Does that make any sense?
    
    
    						KO

    I didn't see the Zinger incident this side of the Atlantic, but it
    sounds to me like they should just not allow callers to affect the
    results of a tournament like that.
    
    Look at it this way, there are marshalls, officials, etc. on the course 
    to look at this type of incident at the time. In addition the golfers 
    are professionals and they know the rules and where unsure they call for 
    a ruling. As such with this game perhaps over all others we expect the
    players to call their own fouls. So if Azinger doesn't believe he's
    done wrong and his playing partners and any officials are happy with
    his actions, then that should be the end of it.
    
    Having "bitchers" calling up once a guy has signed his card is bad
    news. At the extreme we could have the Green Jacket presented next
    month on Monday or Tuesday once all the close-ups have been screened!!
    
    I think close-ups of the lie that the player has are great and should
    continue. It gives a greater appreciation of what the pros can achieve 
    from places where many of us would struggle to move the ball a few
    yards.
    
    
    Phil.
    
    
     

    The Z was disqualified for turning in an incorrect score. He did'nt
    count the two stroke penalty for raking his foot in the hazard and not
    wiggleing it. Several questions are raised regarding fairness. One
    major one is why his playmates did not get assesed a two stroke penalty
    for not acknowledging the infraction at the time. Since noone observed 
    an infraction then the penalty should have been assesed but the Z
    should NOT have been disqualified. Shame on the PGA tournament
    director. 

    
    
    BIG MONEY BREEDS BIG BULLSHIT.
    
    
    It's sad to think thatthe players can be disqualified because of some
    viewer.  This type of thing has to stop.  perhaps an arguement could be
    made that this exposure is unfair because for the most part it only
    happens to the few golfers who are close to or leading the event.
    All of the field doesn't get covered by the cameras.  Sad state of
    affairs.
    
    
    Tom
    
    P.S.  Zinger made the shot and proceeded to put his third shot on the
    green and sink the putt for a par.  Best par I've ever seen.
    
    

                RE .24 - 
                           .26 is absolutely correct in saying that
within a hazards you can't ground your club.

                Re .26-

                 Does this make sense?

<<< Well think about guy you said it yourself in response to .24,what 
happens when you take a practice swing away from the ball an hit the
sand,or lay your club down to tie your shoe. Same thing that happened
to your friend,he Absentmindedly put his club down within the confines
of the hazard an the other PRO called him on it. Welcome to the BIG
Leagues! It's too bad but those are the rules.


  marko
 

    
    I have to agree with those who feel that the viewer has no place making
    the call. The PGA has officials on the course and thier job is oversee
    the action and make rulings on such matters. If the ruling is not made
    by a PGA official then that is the end of it. If a viewer should call
    in a violation of the rules and after reviewed he or she is found to be
    correct the player should be approched and a warning issued. Or if the
    pga wants to continue the practice of viewers calling infraction a new
    rule should be written to address the issue.
    
    Pete

    While watching the Honda Classic this weekend they talked about
    this, as well as the Stadler incident and the concensus was that
    TV viewers had no business making that kind of call.  Not only is
    it not fair to the player involved but of the field of 72 players
    that make the final cut how many do you even see on TV?  Only 10-12
    are followed by the cameras,  that makes it unfair to them as well.
    
    So the PGA in its infinite wisdom has now adopted a new rule where
    a tournament official will now monitor the television broadcast
    of all tourneys.  This guy will be sitting in a room watchiong the
    tube with a walkie talkie and report any rule infringements to the
    officials on the course.  Talk about Big Brother,,,whats next spies
    in the gallery?????
    
    	Mike
    

    Re -1
    
    I'm suprised it hadn't happened again. If you watched the last of the
    Steve Pate saga and his "almost" lost ball on 18, you may have noticed
    Johnny Miller say that Pate was cleaning his ball with his fingers
    after lifting out of a buried lie. If the ball hadn't been plugged,
    Steve would have been assessed a penalty.
    
    It was not clear that the ball was plugged. All you saw was him remove
    his ball from the high grass and replay it. 
    
    My guess is it wasnt plugged. When was the last time you saw a player
    able to clean his ball and NOT toss it to his caddie for the Super Wash
    with the towel and buff shine. How ironic, it was Zinger he beat.
    
    Ken

Ken,

>    It was not clear that the ball was plugged. All you saw was him remove
>    his ball from the high grass and replay it. 

     They showed one shot, (very brief) and his balls was definitely imbedded!
     Do you think they would have had such problems finding it if it was just
     sitting there in the rough?  

     I was glad that they did find the ball because it would have been lousy
     if he had to take a lost ball penalty.  Especailly because several 
     thousand people saw the ball land in person & a couple hundred thousand 
     on TV.  Just no one could find the ball!

	Larry

    What next??
    
    How about cameras in the bags of the 72 finalists.  Full video tapes of
    the round.  To be reviewed before prizes are awarded.  Wayne Grady got
    DQ'd for removing a piece of tape that  stuck to his club..."modifying
    a club after the round has started". 
    
    The Fey Vincent rule could be invoked and no smoking would be allowed
    on the course or locker room.  Of course the "age old habit" of betting
    on a golf game as someone did (Norman I think) last year would be no 
    longer allowed. What if he had bet onthe other guys to cover his bet on
    himself. 
    
    Why should the guys with the camera on them have any more benefit or
    penalty because of this.  The networks should be forced to standardize
    coverage...what about the tournaments that aren't on TV.  Does this
    mean all of the "cheaters" show up for a chance to win?  
    
    Excuse me, but how ridiculous can you get.  The PGA is starting to
    sound like a close cousin to the NCAA.  Square grooves, no square
    grooves, weight rite shoes, tapered putter grips, the putter with the
    golf balls in it for weights(Bernhard Langer).  Where is Rodney
    Dangerfield when we need him?  Make him the new commissioner of golf, 
    I kind of liked the golf bag with a radio in it, the putter/scope and
    the beer keg for those long delays.
    
    SoCalDandy

    
    Does anyone know if it was lead tape on Wayne Levi's club
    or just tape on the whipping?  Removing lead tape would be
    a significant alteration in my opinion.
    
    Bob - Chairman of the rules committee - in my house anyways!