Conference 7.286::golf

    
    For my two cents, I didn't like the Hogan radials strictly
    from the point of view of having such a large extended weighting
    on the back. Thought it might create "drag" on hitting through 
    the shot!! I like the looks of the Edge irons, and they combine
    the cast/forged feel, so they say. I bought Hogan apex PC which
    have a small sweet spot. I would go for the Edge next time.
     Good luck, AV.
    

    I'm going from a forgiving club (Club) to more of a blade (Taylor Made) 
    club.  I have always found that when changing clubs you go through a
    learning process and your game may take a step backwards,however, in the
    long run my game has always has gotten better.  I always tried to
    upgrade my clubs only when I wanted to get to the next playing plato.
    When I get a new set of clubs (like my Taylors) I go through a practice
    session or sessions with them.  I start by hitting chip shots (to get
    the feeling of hitting the sweet spot), then I hit half shots (always
    tring and hitting a traget) and then full shots.  I then try and get on
    the golf course and from different lengths (yards) I hit my clubs into
    the green and see what is my new yardage for my clubs.  The key is swing
    the same as you would with your old set of clubs.  I sometimes take out
    my old and new set of clubs and hit them both from the same spot and
    use the same club into the green.  This will give you a good understanding
    on how to club yourself when you play your next round.  Also find out
    what your new clubs will do when your in trouble (hitting over or under tr
    trees).  
    
    I have found by doing the above my game has come around very quickly and
    always improved.  Good Luck.
    
    Peter

    
    	When I made the change to PW'd clubs I gained a club in distance,
        ( which I attribute to hitting the sweet spot more often)... my
    	mid irons played much tighter, and the long irons went from an
    	uncontrollable slice... to more of a power fade. 
    	
    	I did change shaft flex at the same time, going from a medium to
    	stiff. So it's difficult to say exactly what caused the results.
    
    	One thing I believe PW'd clubs did, was allow me to mis-hit and
    	remain in the same area code.
    	
    
    	I think you'll be very happy,
    
    	Walt

    i had been using macgregor muirfields for 3 years (wilson staffs
    before the muirfields) until they were stolen this past september
    for about a month i used a set (sw,pw,9-3 iron) of ping eye 2's.
     and in general learned to hate them. i replaced my old set of
    muirfields with a new set of muirfields and am glad i did. i think
    i can safely say i will never use ping's (and probably any perimeter
    weighted club) again. 
    
    some additional comments on the pings;
    
    sw - absolutely the worst club i ever held in my hands.
    
    pw thru 8 - i also disliked these clubs, never knew where the
                ball was going ie, distance and direction
    
    7 + 6 - no comment
    
    3-5   - i will admit to loving these clubs, i felt like i could not
            hit a bad shot.
    
    

In the long run, perimeter-weighted clubs are the ONLY way to go. They 
really do expand the sweet spot and penalize you far less than blades 
if you hit it off the toe (the most common of mistakes). These 
friendly characteristics are most evident in the longer irons and 
almost invisible in the wedge. You may not enjoy that delicious 
feeling of a purely hit shot--feel, I've found is muffled by perimeter 
weighting--but feel is after-the-fact, it doesn't make for successful
shots. (You won't suffer the sting of a badly-struck shot either, so
there is some compensation, aesthetically speaking. 

But all perimeter clubs are not alike. You have to like the feel, the 
weight, and the lie. For example, I don't like the Ping Eyes because I 
don't like the way the lofted clubs lie--I never feel like they're 
comfortably square to the ball and they are so thick I get the 
impression (illusion) that I'll never get the ball up high--and I'm
not very comfortable with the light swing-weight. I LOVE my Karsten II's, 
however. They were the first generation Pings, with a narrower, 
squarer face and a more traditional (at the time) swing-weight. But, 
if I were given the choice of playing out my days with Ping Eyes or 
any tour blade, I'd choose the Pings, because I'd eventually get used 
to their idiosyncrasies and my margin of error would always 
be wider.

So enjoy your new clubs. Stick with them if they don't "click" with 
you right away. Given the same level of play, your game will be 
consistently better for it.

    re: .5
    
    	the "feel" you speak of can almost never be obtained with a
    cast club such as ping makes....the Hogan Edge is a forged club
    with perimeter weighting....the attempt is to get the best of both
    in one club....other manufactures are following suit....Ram is
    one that comes to mind...they have a forged perimeter weighted club
    offering this year and some others also but their names escape me...
    
    	to me feel is a most important part of my game....but impossible
    to get with cast clubs.....

re: .6

I agree that the feel is very important.  After going from Ping Eye-2's to
MacGregor Muirfields my chipping game improved immediately.  I believe this 
was due, in large part, to better feel.  For example, with a 6 iron chip
from just off the fringe the line was never the issue -- but getting the
appropriate distance was more difficult to gauge, for me, using Pings.  The 
Pings felt like telephone poles to me.  The Muirfields, however, are great.

Jeff

    reply .7
    
    	Interesting discussion...  
    
    	What level of golfer will benefit more using PW'd clubs and why?
    
    	What level of golfer should use forged and why?
    
    	thanks,
    
    	Walt
    
    
    	

    re: .8
    
    	The clubs .7 is speaking about Macgregor Murfields are a FORGED
    club, they are a "traditional" type of club in that they are of
    the blade type used by very accomplished golfers.....
    
    	PW (perimeter weighted) types of clubs are of the "hi tech"
    type of club which have been designed to offer an easier playing
    club for the less accomplished golfer...more forgiving on mishit
    shots and a larger sweet spot....
    
    	Each golfer has to decide for themself which is best suited
    for their own game....with the forged you can get better feel on
    your shots (good or bad shots)....with the PW you can get better
    consistancy as they are more forgiving (may be the reason more and
    more pro's are using these type of clubs ping,etc...)
    
    	The Hogan Edge introduced last fall combines both features
    into one club....it is a FORGED PERIMETER WEIGHTED CLUB.....

    forgot to mention in .9 that most if not all PW type clubs built
    to-date have been cast clubs not forged clubs so you maybe did not
    get the feel that a forged club provides...
    

    Back to the original question....
    
    I changed to p.w. clubs during my annual Poland Springs golf survival
    weekend (54 holes).... My game suffered BUT then it's hard to tell at 
    my level of play :>)..... The 54 holes in 2 days helped because by the
    end of the next round after that I loved the clubs !
    
    I found I lost  1 to 2 clubs distance for the first half dozen rounds
    THEN started gaining back. After the smoke had cleared I ended up
    with a net gain of 1 club compared to my old forged blades. 
    
    
    
    Pasco
    

    I'll settle this for once and for all.
    When I bought the forged Hogen Apex, the pro told me i would have
    trouble with the long irons since I wasn't a single digit handicap
    player. He was right BUT what he didn't mention that the "sweet"
    spot hits on 5 through 9 are more accurate with tour blade than
    PW'td inv. cast types. The offspring had DDH pw'd stiff shaft
    and was fine at a 26 cap. THEY will not, and he was told this ,
    serve him well when he breaks into the single digit field.
    
    I also think, as someone mentioned, tour blades are better on the
    short game. If you are a 70's shooter, with a good repeating swing
    I would say go for the tour blade.  I was asked , can you hit
    a 2 iron off the fairway straight over 210 90% of the time ??
    No.  "than your advantage is with PW 'd clubs". But I bought
    the tour" cause they feel so good". And you still will get the
    same distance on tour blades IF you hit the sweet spot, and I 
    think they are more accurate. BUT
    
    if I were buying today, I would go for the Hogan Edge.You get the
    50/50 "half forged, half inv. cast" with PW. How can you go wrong?
    
                               Ang."your dogmatic hacker".
    

    RE: .12
    
    >THEY will not, and he was told this ,
    >serve him well when he breaks into the single digit field.
    
    	Somebody better tell a lot of touring pros about this so they
    	can ALL switch to tour blades... :-)
    
        
    	This topic has been hashed around a few other times in here BTW.
    	
    	Here is my $.02 worth... Which agrees with most of what has been
    	said so far. PW's can help a lot of players because they are more
    	forgiving. Forged does have that great "soft" feel when they are
    	hit in that little sweet spot.
    
    	If you hit a forged blade on the sweet spot and a cast PW'ed blade
    	on the sweet spot the ball hit with the forged will go further.
    	Also, if distance is going to be considered a factor then you
    	should take a look at what the loft is on the respective clubs,
    	the PW'ed iron might have less loft.
    
    	My bottom line thoughts are that if you are a high handicap player
    	you CAN benefit from PW'ed irons (cast or forged), but just because
    	you are a low handicapper does not mean that you should run right
    	out and get tour blades (cast or forged). The forged PW's may be
    	great (I haven't had the chance to try them yet unfortuneately),
    	the drawback is the big $ price tag...
    
    	Gene

I'm confused here (nothing new). The previous reply suggests that a 
perfectly stuck forged blade will travel further than a PW'ed cast 
club? How? Doesn't the clubhead speed, and perhaps the spin imparted 
on the ball, determine the distance? And aren't those a function of 
the swing and the grooves? What does the composition of the alloy or 
the distribution of the mass have to do with it? Or is that it? Is it 
that greater mass is delivered behind the ball in a tour blade than a 
PW'ed clubhead (since the bulk of the mass is on the perimeter, not in 
the center)? Or does it really make any difference; is the effective 
mass the same for both types of clubs when striking a ball. Obviously, 
I've long forgotten my physics lessons.

It's all academic anyway, since a few yards here and there don't make 
any difference; you account for the difference in your club selection.

I still contend that "feel" is irrelevant to shot making, at least the 
feel of perimeter weighting vs. standard blade. True, you feel the 
shot, the striking of the ball, much more clearly with the forged 
blade, but, again, the results by that time are determined--the ball 
is on its way. If you're talking about the feel DURING the swing, that 
has to be a function of the swing weight and the grip, and nothing to 
do with the composition and design of the clubhead. Blindfolded, could 
you tell the difference between identically-weighted-and-gripped 
clubs, one a forged tour blade and the other PW'ed? I'd be very 
surprised if you could.

And for the life of me I can't figure out how a club with a smaller 
sweet spot, thus a narrower margin of error, could be better 
for ANYONE's game. (Except psychologically--golf is after all as much a 
game of the mind as the body.)

...but then, what do I know? I'm confused.

     Whatever works...
     Chick Evans on the senior tour told me" if your not hitting PW
    inv. cast irons with off-set head, metal woods, and the 2 piece
    surlyn ball, your playing in the dark ages".
    
                        I hate all three...
    Meanwhile, teeing next to him is Ben Hogan apex, titlest balata
    100 and wooden woods . (I think Charles Coody).
                        I love all three...
    
    I'll be waiting to hear from" the Edge" user next summer!
                                        AV
                           
    
        
    

>I still contend that "feel" is irrelevant to shot making, at least the 
>feel of perimeter weighting vs. standard blade. True, you feel the 
>shot, the striking of the ball, much more clearly with the forged 
>blade, but, again, the results by that time are determined--the ball 
>is on its way. 

You are right, but you miss the point.  Feel is the feedback that allow
you to adjust your swing in the future to execute those delicate shots
more precisely.

>And for the life of me I can't figure out how a club with a smaller 
>sweet spot, thus a narrower margin of error, could be better 
>for ANYONE's game. 

The real sweet spot on perimeter weighted clubs is the same as forged clubs.
However shots hit slightly off the sweet spot will travel further and 
straighter than a ball hit in the same place on forged club.  It will not
go as far as a shot hit off the sweet spot.  Basically it allows for a
large range of acceptable shots.

I used to have forged Wilson STaffs.  A couple years ago I traded them in
for a set of perimeter wieghted Wilson 1200GE's.  If I were to hit both the 
good shots will travel about the same distance.  However the misses are
better with the PW'ed clubs.  With forged clubs you know immediately when you
hit a less than perfect shot.  This feedback is great when you are practicing
so that you can improve your swing.  However higher handicappers generally
benefit from the PW'ed clubs.

Larry

PS.  I like the concept of the Hogan Edge, but does anyone else think that they
look ugly when you look at them from the address position.  I guess to each his
own.

    Well being that I kind of provoked all this discussion regarding PW'd
    and forged... I'd like to thank Tom, Larry ,Gene, Angie and others that
    have explained the +'s and -'s of both club designs.
    
    	Golf is difficult at best. If forged allow me to better understand
    what caused my shot to go right... if forinstance I missed the sweet
    spot a little high on the toe and could "feel" it. I would know to move
    a little closer to the ball etc. , rather than guess wrong and correct my
    turn, or similar. 
    
    	Where PW'd I would not feel the high hit... and maybe correct 
    something that isn't broken.
    
    	Is that basically what feeling the shot can do for you?
    
    thanks,
    
    	Walt
    
    PS. We have talked about this before, but not so much that I know
        which way to drop my $$$$ ;) ! It is Christmas season , right?
    

    re: .13
    
    	the drawback is the $$$$$$........
    
    	Well that was another factor that helped me switch...
    	I have a $100.00 gift certificate for winning my flight in
    club champ this year, I'll be getting $200.00 for being on tournament
    comm. at my club next year, the pro gave me a price of $325 + my
    clubs(hogan radials) to trade up to the hogan edge (2-pw)...
    I've been using my radials about 4-5 years and they have served
    me well but my cost for trading is $25.00 and you can't beat that...
    
    	I do think the pro is playing a little game though...sell 1
    set at reasonable cost to a low handicaper and it will generate
    other sales for the same clubs at a good mark up...
    
    	He's giving $175.00 for my clubs so total cost is 325+175 =
    $500.00 which is about $55.00 a club...I figure cost per club at
    $50.00 to $70.00 depending upon the amount of profit yo want to
    make...anyway it was "an offer I couldn't refuse..."

    
    Walt,
    you got it. The tour head gives feedback on a poor shot. Look at
    all my feedback you've been watching !!
    
    Your right good comments by Tom,Larry,Gene,Pete, and you.
                The next clubs out will be called
    ALL IN ONE!!
                               ..it's only money......Angie
                                   go for the Edge,Santa
    
    
    
        
    

    Curious...
    
    Is the EDGE an offset model?  I like the idea of the club (PW and
    forged) but can't deal with offsets. (ala PING) I'm waiting for a good
    copy of the EDGE I can build myself.
    
    Rick

    In this note and in so many other places,  I  hear  so much about the
    "FEEL" of forged clubs, but being an "average" golfer  I am not ready
    for blades, so when the Edge came out I said,  finally  a  club  that
    combines feel and forgiviness!  But guess what???  They don't  have a
    left-handed model!!!!  DESCRIMINATION!!!!!
    
    Tavo

    Some replys in here mentioned that they hit the PW's the same distance
    as the forged blades, then Gene states that the lofts of the PW's are
    strong, therefor a PW 5 = a forged 6,          if that's true then you
    guys are really not getting the same distance with the PW's, or am I
    missing something.
    
    My opion only:
    
    I have Wilson Staff's that I wouldn't trade for anything, I also use a
    Ping 1 iron, I can hit that pretty good but the problem is that I just
    can't feel a good or bad shot with the Ping, drives me nuts!  I feel
    that if someone want's to really be a good golfer, that they must first
    learn to hit forged blades, then after they reach a certain level where
    their swing is consistant that is the time to decide on the PW's vs.
    the forged blades. I'd really be interested in the % of pro's or 2 or
    less handicappiers that grewup on forged blades vs. use them now. Does
    anyone know what % of the pros use forged vs. PW's now?

    When I started the game I used a PW'd set of clubs.  I felt they
    helped me getthe ball up and were much more forgiving for a swing
    that was not very repeatable.  Also the extra weighting helped me
    groove a nice smooth swing.  After a year I noticed I started losing
    distance on mid to long irons and everything I hit went a mile high.
    I figured it was time to trade up.  I went to a forged blade and
    after a little adjustment period have grown to love them, I would
    never use anything else.  The feel and control, to me, far outweigh
    the small sweetspot the forged have.  I love the feeling of that
    soft click and watching my ball soarto the pin when you make a correct
    swing atthe ball.  To me its a reward for putting evrything together
    for that swing.
    Bottom line is its all personal reference but I feel the PW'd clubs
    will make the average or beginning golfer enjoy the game more due
    to its more forgiving nature.  The addict who is out to really work
    on his game will enjoy the forged blades and the reward I spoke
    of.
    
    Just my $.02
    
    Mike
    

	OK, here we go...it's left to the reader to figure out what
	it translates too. In general stronger loft means more distance.


normal lofts given, different manufactures may vary +/- a degree


		PW		Forged
		--		------

1 iron		15		 17
2 iron		17		 20
3 iron		21		 23
4 iron		24		 26
5 iron		28		 30
6 iron		32		 34
7 iron		34		 38
8 iron		38		 42
9 iron		42		 46
wedge		46		 50


Gene can check me on the "standards" that are given under the forged club
because all I'm positive about is that a "std" 5 iron is 30 deg.

I have seen specs on various PW clubs(cast and forged) and they seem to
vary about 2 deg per club i.e. 5 iron = 28 deg.

    
    
    RE: .22
    
    Pete,
    
>    Some replys in here mentioned that they hit the PW's the same distance
>    as the forged blades, then Gene states that the lofts of the PW's are
>    strong, therefor a PW 5 = a forged 6,          if that's true then you
>    guys are really not getting the same distance with the PW's, or am I
>    missing something.
    
    I did state that the loft of the PWs are generally stronger than the
    tour blade. That would make a PW 5 more like the loft of a tour blade
    4 not a 6, but the difference in loft degree isn't that of a full club
    difference, the PWs are only a degree or two stronger than the tour
    blade. The difference in loft from one club to another in a given set
    is usually 3 to 4 degrees (3 degrees on the less lofted clubs [1-4] and
    4 on the more lofted clubs [5-PW].
    
    Another point that I want to make real clear is that a TOUR BLADE head
    (the thin straight line type of head) is not by any means neccesarily (sp.) 
    a FORGED BLADE....!!!!
    
    If anybody has the chance to take out say a PW 5 iron and a "FORGED" 5
    iron to hit some balls, give it a try. Hit about a dozen balls with
    each (use all the same type balls) and see which club hits the ball
    further (on the well hit shots...:-)). BTW, there are a lot of other
    variables that will give greater distance (swingweight, shaft length
    shaft flex, shaft flex point, etc..) but give it a try any ways.
    
    RE: .23
    
    Dick,
    
    These lofts are a good average...
    Do you have the lofts for the standard Edge irons...?
    
    Gene (who_likes_to_be_able_to_reply_to_a_name_not_just_a_number...:-))

RE: .23 

>   The feel and control, to me, far outweigh
>   the small sweetspot the forged have.  I love the feeling of that
>   soft click and watching my ball soarto the pin when you make a correct
>   swing atthe ball.  To me its a reward for putting evrything together
>   for that swing.

Mike makes a very good point: The tour blade does reward you with a 
great feel when you make perfect contact--a feeling completely lacking 
in the PW'ed club, particularly the Ping Eyes. I used to play Haigs--
about as thin a blade as you can get--and, from time to time, I do 
miss that exhilarating feeling of creaming a 3-iron. But I don't miss 
the toed shots--especially in November!

In a roundabout sort of way Mikes rationale may explain why so many 
pros use PW'ed clubs (and probably a lot more would, too, if they 
weren't getting lucrative contracts from club manufacturers to play 
their sticks). They can't afford the luxury of enjoying the game for 
it's sensual rewards, their livelihood depends on SCORING. And that 
means getting the most out of a bad shot. A difference of a couple 
strokes a round on average is what separates the top twenty money 
winners and those rabbits that return to qualifying school.

So maybe we low-handicap amateurs would be better off playing tour 
blades. At least we can enjoy that other dimension to the game: feel. 
What's a couple of strokes here or there in a friendly nassua--or even 
in state amateur competition?

...I don't know, though. I've kinda gotten used to my 
Karstens...besides, My Haigs have grown rusty (in the literal sense) 
in the basement and the grips are like stone...

Tom

    

    re: .26
    
    	The point of the Hogan Edge club is that you can enjoy the feel
    as well as get good results from "not so perfectly" hit shots...
    	
    	I think the pro's use them for another reason as well as "they
    have to earn a living" and that is the FACT that even a pro will
    only hit about 2-4 shots perfectly per round...the rest are misses
    to some extent...but if they can use a club that make those misses
    serviceable then they are going to use that type of club...

	I think the biggest reason that you find Pro's playing PW'ed
	clubs is that they grew up with them as kids, continued to
	play with them in college, & can't afford to switch now that
	they are trying to make a living on tour.

	After all you hear so much about the lack of shot making on
	the tour today.  It is a lot harder to work the ball with
	PW'ed clubs than your traditional club.  The perimeter weighted
	club is designed to try to make your ball go straight even
	when you want it to curve!

	Larry

    Was reading an article this weekend about Nicklaus and was very
    interested
    to see that in 1990 he is going to start practiceing and playing
    with perimeter weighted forged clubs.....even the best golfer in
    the world knows when it's time to adjust his game....the article
    never gave the reason why or the type of club he'll be playing...
    just an FYI...

    
    RE: .29
    
    Dick,
    
    Was that in Golf Digest? I just glanced through the new issue of GD
    this weekend and there is a big article on Jack, I didn't read it
    yet, but in the photos it looked like he was using PW irons (couldn't
    tell for sure, but it looked like it). 
    
    Gene

>    to see that in 1990 he is going to start practiceing and playing
>    with perimeter weighted forged clubs.....even the best golfer in
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    the world knows when it's time to adjust his game....the article
>    never gave the reason why or the type of club he'll be playing...
>    just an FYI...
 
        Wouldn't he be trying out the Hogan Edges, since they are 
       currently the only perimeter weighted forged clubs on the
       market? 
    
    -rick       

    
    RE: .31
    
    Rick,
    
    I think you will find that there will be several companies offering
    PW forged irons this year... And do you think that Jack would ever
    use any thing but McGregor...!
    
    	Gene

    
       Thats good news Gene!  Maybe a little competition for the Edges
     will drive the prices down to a more reasonable(affordable) level.
     Funny you should mention that Jack wouldn't use anything but 
     Macgregors.  Couldn't help but notice what ball he was playing
     during the Skins game.....yep....Titleist!  Tsk, tsk Jack.
    
    -rick

    I've noticed that for years he always has played Titleist even when
    he was owner of Macgregors...
    
    genes comment is correct..other man. will be offering pw forged
    irons this year and some already do...look at 1990 equipment guide
    in Dec. 89 golf digest for listing...
    
    

Gene,

	From the 1990 Hogan manual here are the spec's for comparison..
you asked about them (in note 825.25 I think) and I didn't have tham at
the time but picked them up this weekend....

(loft is in degree, length is in inches....)

(EQ is Hogan name for wedge..)

Apex = Apex iron standard specifications

Edge = Hogan Edge iron standard specifications


 club#	length		  loft
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|	       |    APEX    |  EDGE  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  1  |  39 3/4|    17.5    |  15.5  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  2  |  39 1/4|    19.5    |  17.5  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  3  |  38 3/4|    23.0    |  21.0  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  4  |  38 1/4|    26.5    |  24.5  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  5  |  37 3/4|    30.0    |  28.0  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  6  |  37 1/4|    33.5    |  31.5  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  7  |  36 3/4|    37.0    |  35.0  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  8  |  36 1/4|    41.0    |  39.0  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
|  9  |  35 3/4|    45.0    |  43.0  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+
| EQ  |  35 1/2|    49.0    |  47.0  |
+-----+--------+------------+--------+

    re: .30
    
    yes in golf digest page 52, 3rd col. first paragraph....
    
    "....he has been able to practice more,and is planning to play with
    newly designed, perimeter weighted forged irons." 
    
    quoted/copied without permission...
    

RE:        <<< Note 825.28 by EUCLID::WARFIELD "Gone Golfing" >>>


>	After all you hear so much about the lack of shot making on
>	the tour today.  It is a lot harder to work the ball with
>	PW'ed clubs than your traditional club.  The perimeter weighted
>	club is designed to try to make your ball go straight even
>	when you want it to curve!

Not true. You can work the ball just as easily with a PW'ed club as 
with the tour blade. Left-to-right and right-to-left, high-and-soft or 
low-and-running are just the consequences of the angle of the club face
at impact, and the skilled player adjusts that by changing the way
they address the ball and/or the way they swing. The construction of
the club head doesn't matter. If PW'ed clubs straighten shots (and I 
think that's probably more hype than fact), they do it to 
unintentional slices or hooks by helping to keep the club head square 
through impact on OFF-CENTER hits. Maybe there's a subtlety to 
shot-making that I'm not familiar with (I'm sure there are many), but 
I doubt intentionally off-center hits are one of them (except on 
slick downhill putts).

If today's crop of pros aren't the shotmakers that  their predecessors 
were, my guess is that it's because they don't have to rely on those 
skills as often. Improved equipment, softer greens, and the
year-around college farm system that has vastly improved the average 
competitor's basic skills, have made the more exotic shot making 
unnecessary.

The only complaint I've heard against club design vis-a-vis shot 
making, has to do with square grooves. They supposedly take the 
challenge out of hitting from the rough. I wouldn't know. I'm in the 
rough often enough to test this theory, that's for sure, but I don't 
hit greens often enough to know whether I can stop it from there.

    Has anyone seen any PW/forged iron heads available yet?  I've not seen
    any from the four or five distributors I deal with.
    
    Rick

    Rick,
    I think I saw Hogan Edge at Nevada Bob's in Woburn???
    Ang
    

    RE: .39
    	I think you'll find .38 is asking about PW forged iron heads
    only as they are looking at maybe making a set themselves....
    
    	Anyone know if any suppliers have them yet???

    RE: .40
    
    You got it... I want to make a set myself.  I can't find a supplier for
    the heads yet.  
    
    Rick

    
    RE: .38 - .40
    
    I don't know of any that have them and I just called some of the
    distributors to see if they have any plans to have them for next
    year. Their answer was no... I found that to be surprising...!!!
    A couple of them have cast clones of the Edge, but no forged...
    
    Gene

    re: .42
    
    "I found that to be surprising...!!!"
    
     I don't..in a forged club I think the original forging has to be
    ground to exact specifications..this cost time and money...whereas
    in a cast club you use the casting process for your specifications
    by that I mean what you cast is what you get...lower cost is a
    major advantage of "roll your own clubs" and it may not be easy
    to keep that cost low if you go into forged club heads...especially
    a forged PW which I bet takes even more grinding than just a forged
    blade type iron head...
    
    just my 2 cents

    
    "DICK",
    
    You are most definately correct in that more time and thus money is
    involved in making a forged club, but if the market is there - then
    you can make the money on them... That is why I am surprised...
    
    "GENE"
    
    

    
    Rick...
    sorry, the only thing I make is scrambled eggs and triple bogeys.
    
    Call Goldsmith's in Austin Texas at 1-800-456-3344
    Ang
    

Re: .37

>Not true. You can work the ball just as easily with a PW'ed club as 
>with the tour blade. Left-to-right and right-to-left, high-and-soft or 
>low-and-running are just the consequences of the angle of the club face
>at impact, and the skilled player adjusts that by changing the way
>they address the ball and/or the way they swing. 

Emprical testing in Larry's Lab using switching from Wilson Staff's to
Wilson 1200GE's has found that I can't work the ball like I used to.  I may
not be a skilled player, but I've got my handicap down to a 14.  Maybe I
just miss the feed back you get from better feel. ;-)

Larry

    I've been playing Ram Tour grind forged irons now for three years.
    They are (I thinl) PW irons. The back of the club at the sweet spot
    has been pressed out thinning this area distributing the mass around
    the edges of the sweet spot.
    
    
    							Tom
    
    Funny no one mentioned these before??

    re: .47
    
    	Not true...Rams PW forged club is the Lazer II if memory serves
    correctly...can be checked in 1990 equip. guide in dec. 1989 golf
    digest mag....

    Hi Larry, Tom ,
    
    	I also use the Wilson 1200 GE's and cannot work the ball as easily
    as before. Tom is right, explaining the methods of working the ball and
    how the clubface must be to achieve a fade or draw. My feelings are the
    PW'd  clubs are more difficult to work, due to the design alone. They
    tend to bring the toe around/through the ball better... maybe the extra
    weight on the toe simply keeps the toe from falling back at impact?
    I used to work a slice by driving the toe into and through the ball
    , but with much less outside to in swingpath as I must use now.
    
    	Walt

    
    As for working the ball and why you aren't able to work the ball
    as easily with the Wilson 1200 GE (Gear Effect) take a look at
    note 237 (237.6 Gear Effect). The GEs are not quite the same as
    most PWs, they are a little convex (I don't THINK you will find 
    this to be the case with most PWs)...
    
    More comments/thoughts on this please...
    Gene

That's an interesting bit of information, Gene. It seems to explain a 
lot, as far as Walt's and Larry's difficulties working the ball.

Walt: Did you really work the fade by playing the ball of the toe?!!
Incredible. I'd lose at least 20% of my distance if I toed my old 
Haigs. But then, I've seen you play, and I believe you have the power 
to recoup most of that. Still seems like a tough way to pull it off. I 
think Nicklaus's method makes the most sense: Everything stays the 
same in terms of the swing and address except that you aim at the 
intended INITIAL line of flight, somewhat left of the target, and open 
the blade of the club slightly. In this way, the swing path is 
directed left (for a righty) and the the clubface is aimed at the end 
target, putting the necessary spin on the ball. At least that approach 
makes perfect mechanical sense. Executing it is another thing. 
Whenever I want to fade, my body seems to automatically shift to an 
extreme outside-in swing, and the results can be pretty unpredictable. 
Still, I have my days when I can move the ball pretty effectively
(even with my PW'ed Karstens). But more often I have those other days... 

Tom,

Your description describes exactly how I used to fade the ball (on purpose).
Gene's explanation makes sense.  At least now I know why I can't work the
ball like I used to.  My first reaction was that there probably a rule that
said clubs had to be flat.  However, most drivers defintely don't have a flat
face, so reason triumphs over instinct.

Larry

    Can I join this three-some? ;-)
    
    I found I had to practice more with my ping's to get the ball to
    move when I wanted it to. At first all I could do was to hit the
    ball straight! Which would've been fine if I could hit my drives
    straight ;-)! I thought it was a combination of the perimeter
    weighting/gear effect, a better release through the ball, and the
    extra backspin that kept me zig-zagging up the fairways.
    
    Now I can bend the ball very reliably, and the ping's are a real
    advantage! Like Tom suggests, I do it all with alignment and club
    selection (less club for a draw; more for a fade). Because mishits
    are not punished I find that my recovery shots give *much* more
    predictable results (conversely toe-ing my old Haigs while hitting
    a fade always gave an ugly result).
    
    I do not believe the cast clubs are an issue when it comes to working
    the ball. There is a learning curve switching from forged.
    
    Eric

    
    Hi Tom,
    
    	In note .49 I said "I drive the toe into the ball" to cause a
    fade. Terrible explanation. I meant to say heel. You explained it
    much better. Sorry for the lapse of thought.
    
    I use to "lead the heel through impact" . Like opening the clubface 
    through impact rather than at set-up.  Still striking the center of
    the clubface. The 1200 GE's seem to make that more difficult. As if they 
    were trying to keep the toe + heel square.  
    
    Gene,
    
    	Could you explain more about the way wood drivers have a rounded
    face (on the toe and heel) ? Seems the rounded edges would cause more
    trouble than not... 
    
    	thanks,
    
    	Walt
    	
    
    	
    

    Walt,
       not being a fade/draw expert, but the reason for the roundness
    (or bulge) on the face is to bring back a draw and and left to right
    a slice or power fade. Each 1/8 of an inch as to sweet spot hit
    has it's left to right or right to left distance/velocity factor.
    
          Pro's have their "bulge" calculated with this in mind.
    The metals with less bulge help the average golfer keep it in the
    fairway.  And I guess longer. My 2 cents.  Waiting for Gene's
    answer                                 
                                           Ang
        

    
    I did some research and found that my explanation for the Gear Effect
    in the Wilson 1200 GE was incorrect. Their Gear Effect is due to the
    center of gravity of the head not being near the face of the head, but 
    further back (this is according to their ads in GD, I had thought I had 
    read in one of their ads some time ago that their irons did infact have a
    bulge, but I couldn't find any thing to substantiate this last night).
    This works in the same way as woods do, which I will TRY to explain...
    
    
    
    First off the definition of BULGE is the horizontal radius of the face
    as measured from heel to toe.
    
    What the bulge does is start the ball farther to the right on toe hits
    and farther to the left on heel hits. This is done to compensate for
    ball sidespin caused by these off-center hits. The amount of bulge
    needed on a wood is dependent upon the location of the center of
    gravity in the wood (since on off-center hits the head tends to rotate
    about this center of gravity, it does not rotate on the shafts axis).
    The farther back in the head the center of gravity the more bulge is
    needed to compensate for the off-center hits. Assuming that the club
    head is square at impact and the ball is hit off the toe, there would
    be a couter-clockwise spin put on the ball which will make the ball
    move from right to left (hook or draw). If there were no bulge the ball
    would end up left of the target, thus the purpose of the bulge is to
    compensate for this spin and start it out more to the right and the
    counter-clockwise spin on the ball will bring it back on target (the
    opposite spin is encountered on shots hit off the heel). This info
    is from some literature that I have from Golfworks and is easier to
    understand with diagrams, but I hope this helps rather than hinders
    the theory behind some club head designs and the effect of hitting
    shots off-center...
    
    There is no bulge needed in irons since their center of gravity is
    righ
    
    Now with the Wilson 1200 GE the theory (atleast the way I see it) is
    that with the center of gravity actually moved back from the club face
    and there being no bulge, more counter-clockwise spin is put on the ball
    on the shots hit off the toe and more clockwise spin put on the ball on
    shots hit off of the heel. Thus making it harder to move the ball for
    those people that try to move it by hitting it off center...!!! BUT,
    according to this theory, I would also think that if the face of the
    1200 GE does not have ANY bulge then the shots that are hit of center
    and with the club face square at impact would cause more hook or slice
    than a normal iron...!!! Could one of you 1200 GE users please confirm
    if there is any bulge on these clubs or not...?
    
    Gene

    reply .55 .56
    
    Thanks Angie, Gene ,
    
    	That's the first detailed explanation I've heard regarding woods,
    	and why they bulge the face. It never made much sense to me 
    	before...  , when I use a bulged face type wood it 
    	bothers me. I feel I must strike the ball dead in the sweet spot 
    	for it to go straight. I'll stick to my Taylor Metal woods for
    	now... the funny thing is I bought them because they had such a 
    	flat face. Maybe it's flat because they perimeter weight them?
    
    	The 1200 GE's are not bulged on the face. I have used them for 
    	2-3 years now and haven't noticed any sign they are bulged. Maybe
    	the woods are? It would be tough pitching and chipping with irons
    	if they bulged them... Hmmmm . Maybe my irons are bulged???? I
    	already know my putter is! ;)
    
    	Walt
    
    

re: .31

 
}        Wouldn't he be trying out the Hogan Edges, since they are 
}       currently the only perimeter weighted forged clubs on the
}       market? 



	This may be correct as the equipment guide for 1990 shows the
following....


manufacture		club		already in prod. or new this year    
(model name)
-----------		----		---------------------------------

Bob Burns	per. balanced, forged,		in production
		V grooves


Ben Hogan	per. weighted, forged,		in production
(EDGE)		U grooves


Merit		per. weighted, forged,		new this year
(FUSION)	V grooves


Orlimar		cavity back, forged,		new this year
(Diamond	V grooves			(Nevada Bobs ?)
   Forged)


Penna		cavity back, forged,		new this year
		V grooves


Ram		forged, V grooves		new this year
(Laser FX)


Slazenger	forged, V grooves		new this year


Wilson		channel back, forged		in production
(Staff		V grooves
  Gooseneck)


note: new this year is a device used by many manufactures in many fields
      they create the demand first....then the product if the demand warrants..

      what I'm saying is if it is listed as "new" you MAY never see it...stick
      with the established comp. and this should not be a problem....i.e.
      Nevada Bobs being well established will most likely deliver on said
      product....


** also interesting is that the Hogan club is the only one with U grooves..

    
    RE: .58, .31, etc...
    
    It isn't very likely at all that Jack would be trying the Hogan
    edge... 
    
    1. Jack is one of the pros that is dead set aginst U grooves
    
    2. Why would he bother to try them since, they are illegal on the
       tour in just 17 more days...
    
    Now, if they also offer the Edge in "V" grooves then it changes the
    likelyhood, but not by much....!!!
    
    Gene

    re: .59
    
    	Would normally agree with this reasoning but....seeing how
    I think you'll find that U grooves are NOT illegal as long as
    they fall within the USGA specifications....Pings ongoing battle
    has to do with the way the "U or square" grooves are measured...
    
    Hogan and other manufactures are required to submit clubs/balls
    etc. for testing to USGA spec's and I for one have heard or seen
    nothing in print that makes the Hogan or other man. U grooves
    illegal....only the PING ones...anyway they are NOT illegal till
    1996 for amatures (sp) and then only in USGA sanctioned events...
    guess I'm safe.....

    Re:          <<< Note 825.59 by MSEE::KELLEY "Golfoholic - club maker" >>>
    
    Jack's photos  in  this  month DG surely show him with some club that
    look like the EDGE.
    
    Tavo

    re: .59
    
    " the USGA announced earlier this year that box grooves will be
    allowed by the rules , but the Ping Eye2 irons will be nonconforming
    because their box grooves are too close together"
    
    copied/reprinted without permission from GD AUG. 88

    
    RE: .60
    
    Dick,
    
    The PGA is banning ALL "U" grooves as of Jan.1,1990....!
    That is what all the stink is about with Beaman going off on his
    own and somewhat allienating (sp) the PGA from the USGA...!
    
    Gene

    re: .63
    	Right....but PGA does not effect 97% of the golfers...USGA does..
    USGA and Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews, Scotland are
    the ruling body for amateurs....and when I last checked that was
    me...can't speak for you or anyone else...!!!
    

    
    RE: .64
    
    Right Dick, but I thought the discussion was around what Jack was using
    not what you and I are/can use... Did I miss something?
    
    Gene

    re: .-1
    
    	yes this has really gotten off the base subject...I think we
    all missed something.....but I'll still stand by .29/.58 and .60...
    I think .29 is the key to what Nicklaus may be practiceing/playing
    with...

    
    Dick,
    
    I agree with all your statements concerning the "U" grooves and how
    the rulings on them pertain to amatures and how ALL club manufacturers
    are SUPOSED to submit clubs to the USGA to be oked (which Ping did
    not do), etc...
    
    But, I have a real hard time thinking that Jack might even be trying
    out a set of clubs with "U" grooves, for the reasons I stated in .59
    and .63...
    
    Does anybody else have any thoughts on this matter...?
    
    Thanks
    Gene

    Gene/Dick,
    
    	The only comment I'll make... I remember a big tournament in
    California a couple years ago (I believe it was the U.S. Open).
    Jack was one of the common tators and Tom Watson was about to hit
    to the 17th? green, from deep rough... to a tightly tucked pin,
    elevated green. Jack stated the Tom could not make the shot stick
    anywhere near the flag, due to the rough taking spin off the shot.
    Well, Tom stuck it near the flag. Which prompted Jack to angrily
    dismiss the shot as one of the downfaults of square grooves. His
    attitude was the square grooved clubs eliminated the penalty of
    missing the fairway, by allowing players to put spin on shots from
    the rough.
    
    	After hearing his comments I would be surprised if Jack used
    square grooved clubs.
    
    	By the way, Tom Watson stated he didn't use square grooved clubs
    when he made that shot. What better compliment for Tom Watson , to 
    make a shot Jack Nicklaus calls impossible !!!
    
    	JMHO,
    
    	Walt

    
    Perhaps the rule of golf pertaining to equipment and attacking the
    wrong end of the problem. I guess the issue is that they are trying
    to limit (under controller conditions) the actions of the ball.
    IE, spin. If a spec were to be developed that specified the max.
    RPM's a ball can attain regardless of the club design and some
    specific ball were used as the baseline it would open the doors
    for all types of designs. U, V, O grooves wouldn't matter as long
    as the RPM (spin) were maintained.  As testing progressed the club
    designs that closely met the RPM maximum would become the bench
    mark to measure balls by.
    
    
    Tom

    square grooves or no square grooves a person still has to hit a
    shot.....I don't care what a person is using as long as they beat
    me hitting the shot....if square grooves or perimeter weighting
    or etc. changed the game that much people with these "things"
    would win everything in sight, but they don't because golf is
    a game where no matter what equipment you have you still have to
    
    hit the shots....and at my level of play not many of us can even
    hit the shots well enough to have equipment make that much
    difference...the pro's well maybe...but I'm still not convinced...

    re: what jack might be using
    
    macgregor currently makes a peripheral weighted club; the
    macgregor cg. 
    
    this may be the club jack will be trying out. i don't know
    what type of grooves the cg has though.
        
    
    
    john

    RE: .71
    
    John,
    
    	Yes, they even have Jacks name on them (Jack Nicklaus CG1800, even
    	come in coper-beryllium). But they are not forged, which is what 
    	the article and Dick are saying that Jack is trying... Unless they
    	have an unannounced forged version, which I guess could be possible
    	or even that Jack just had McGregor make a set of forged just for
    	him (I think he could pull that off)...
    
    
    	Gene

    I was reading the lasted Golf World last night and there was an article
    in there about the PGA Tour Qualifing Tourney. There was about 200 guys
    going for 50 spots, I said "48% of the players were using the U-grove
    PingEye2 clubs". That is an amasing statistic.
    
    BTW, they also had the women's and men's player of the year, Betsy King
    uses Wilson Staff irons and Tom Kite uses Hogan Apex irons. Both forged
    blades.
    
    Peter

    answer found:
    
    	In Feb. Golf magazine it states that Macgregor will be selling
    a Jack Nicklaus Personal model of irons this year which are P.W.
    forged irons....guess we now know what he started using...looked
    like he was using them in Senior Skins this past weekend...
    
    

    
    RE: .74
    
    	I hate to say I told ya so, but.... ;-) I didn't think that
    	Jack would be using ANYTHING BUT MacGregor...

    re: .75
    
    	I agree...that's why he has always used TITLEIST...:-)

    Macgregor has announced a new forged perimeter weighted
    iron set that I believe they call the Jack Nicklaus
    Personal model. Maybe this is the club he has been working
    with. The announcment was in GOLF magazine.
    
    MAD HACKER

 I go away for a week and I can't even read my unseen notes right!!
    mad hacker

    
    I saw a set of the new McGregor Jack Nicklaus forged PW irons yesterday.
    Nice looking club, more of a traditional rounded toe area. Big bucks
    too, $550 for 2-PW...
    
    Gene

    Boy, it really hurts to see you guys talk about $550 as 'Big Bucks'.
    
    Converting that to Pounds Sterling using $2 to 1 Pound, that makes
    it app 225 pounds.
    
    That would buy an average set of Irons here.
    
    				Wayne.

    re: .80
    
    I think it is relative....
    
    Spending that kind of money on clubs has to be done as an investment,
    and with the idea that the clubs are intended to be used over a
    period of time. A set of clubs like that are good for 7-12 years
    which makes the cost reasonable. 
    
    Now if your the type who changes clubs every year or two it's big
    bucks....
    
    I've seen plenty of golfers who buy the "custom made clubs" and
    are changing them every year, well at 160-180 per set they spend
    the same if not more than the person who spend $550 and uses the
    set for 5-10 years.
    
    I've seen others who buy the 200-250 per set clubs and change them
    every two years...so I maintain that the cost is relative....
    
    It depends on wether you buy as an investment to be used over a
    period of time or wether you buy and change all the time....
    
    

    
    Tony Penna also makes forged, cavity back (or perimeter weighted
    if you prefer) irons.  As seen in Austad's...approx. $425.
    
    Alan

    well, they're here...picked up my new edges yesterday...now if I
    could only get to use them within the next week....BTW looked at
    a set of PINSEAKERS Softcast clubs last weekend and they appear
    to be a replica of the Hogan Edge but investment cast...selling
    point is that it's a softer metal and you "get the feel of forged
    ..."price is more in line with what I perceive most people think
    is reasonable....$245 - $299 for set of 8 irons...

    
    Hey Dick,
    
    Tell us what your thoughts are on the new sticks... Are you pleased
    with them?
    
    Regards
    Gene

    re: gene
    
    	so far I'm pleased but going through the adjustment period is
    driving me nuts...I knew there would be a period of time when my
    game would get worse at first, but I never suspected how bad....
    It doesn't help matters any that I've also gone back to some of my old
    bad habits because of a lack of practice...used to practice alot and
    when you stop it shows.....
    
    	worst problem I'm having is the best part of my game was my
    consistancy for the last three years...now I have none...scores
    are 36 then 46 , 37 then 45, 79 then 91.....has nothing to do with
    the new sticks, I will better have a feel on how I like them if and
    when I ever work out my old bad habits....back to the practice
    range...and reread Hogans Fundamentals....somewhere since last winter
    I've lost everything I'd been working on for the last 5 years....
    
    that's golf I guess...
    
    dick
    

    Don't feel lonely !!!! Last November I played IN a tourney and
    shot 40-53 ! My scores had been consistently in the high 80's
    to low 90's for almost a year but since that day I have been
    hard pressed to break 100 !! Usually more like 110. My swing
    feels awful and I have been topping many shots or slicing
    badly. I have been to the range many times and have hit hundreds
    of balls with no change. My pitching and chipping have improved
    but I can't get close enough to the green to take advantage. Now
    I have started to whiff the ball !!! Paul and Phil were witness
    to this problem at C-F last Friday. When I get back to Calif. I
    am going to sign up for my first ever lesson and get back on the
    right path !!
    
    Mad Hacker

    gene,
    
    	problem found....was failing to let the swing rotate my left arm
    on the backswing...caused inconsistant clubface comming into the ball..
    
    since location the problem and going back to the fundamentals my 
    consistancey has returned....42..39..39..39..38..40..41..37..38...
    
    not that I'm starting to appreciate these new clubs I have some
    interesting observations....
    
    	1) they are much lighter than the Hogan Radials that I'd been using
    since 1985....
    
    	2) I am having trouble consistantly hitting a fade when I want to..
    
    	   (I'm sure this will come with more practice with these clubs..)
    
    	3) last few years I've gone back and forth between Titleist and
    	   Pinnacle depending upon conditions...I find I get absolutley
    	   no feel at all with these clubs using the Pinnacle...so I've
    	   been playing the Titleist exclusivly(sp?)
    
    	4) overall I am convinced this was the right investment for me and
    my game...
    
    dick
    

    
    Dick,
    
    Glad to hear you found the problem and were able to correct it.
    It will be interesting to hear more from you as the year progresses,
    to see if the cap comes down and if so, if you think it is due to
    the clubs...
    
    Regards
    Gene

      FWIW,

      LECHMERE, yes LECHMERE is now carrying Hogan Edge irons and Series 56
      woods.  Normal price is 429.99 for the irons.  They are currently
      running a 10% off sale (makes them 386.99).  The woods were something
      like $230 for 1-3-5.  If you plan on getting them, call around to 
      different stores.  They've been carrying them for a week and the
      Pheasant Lane Lechmere is now sold out :-). 

      

    re: .89
    
    Gene,
    
    	cap will be comming down....clubs are great...should have traded
    when they first came out with them....
    
    last few 9 hole rounds...:
    
    		6/3 score = 40/36/37
    		6/5 score = 40
    		6/12 score = 36
    		6/17 score = 40/41
    		6/24 score = 37/37/38
    		6/30 score = 41/40/37
    		7/15 score = 38/41/34....!!!
    
    		7/17 score = 34......!!!!!!!
    
    of course win a weekend comming up game will go south again...

     Yesterday I had a look at the '91 EDGE irons and got to hit them. They
    have a lot cleaner lines than the 90's - thinner top line, much less
    noticeable slot next to the neck on the top of the blade. The 8 & 9
    irons and PW look especially good, but the 7 iron seems unchanged.
     I also hit the prototype "Tom Kite" 51 degree PW, which was a great
    feeling club. Finally, I got to play some of the new (this year's)
    Hogan 90 compression balls and loved 'em. Great paint, nicer lettering
    and they move a lot better than the old ball (but NOTHING moves like
    the old Hogan "Tour Select...").
     These things being true, why am I considering a set of Apex tour
    blades, and why am I getting my set of Medallions rechromed and
    reshafted ? I'm a junkie, that's why - a very sick person...
    
    --Jack

    re: .92
    
    why indeed....well I'd suggest that even though new technology has
    changed the game, you can play with and appreciate a set of clubs
    that have been proven and have stood the test of time....
    
    it's like the old 55-56 chevy or 55-56 fords...they aren't the latest
    technology but they have stood the test of time and are still a very
    reliable automobile....
    
    but you also can play with and appreciate the new high tech
    equipment...
    
    my hats off to a golfer like that...
    
    

    Has anyone out there obtained a set of Edge Clones?  I would like to
    now where and how much?
    
    Also, how do they compare to 845's.
    
    Tim

    
    I have a set of Edge Clones built by our very own moderator (though
    very sadly just about to be ex-moderator) Gene Kelley. You'll have to
    check with Gene as to the latest prices for the clubs as I bought mine
    over 6 months ago and I had to have them shipped over to England. Even
    then they still worked out relatively inexpensive compared to club
    prices over here.
    
    I haven't seen any 845's to compare them to, but I think the clones
    will be hard to beat. I usually shoot around the 90's, High 80's but the
    last few rounds I've played with the Clones I've managed a 40 for 9,
    and a 76 for 18, which included a level par 34 on the way out.
    
    Not only do the clubs feel and play great but they look really good
    too. I got Gene to put on slightly smaller Dynamic Gold 300 stiff
    shafts with half cord grips. I am definitely well impressed with them. 
    
    One other thing I was impressed with was UPS parcel delivery. Gene sent
    off some clubs at 13:00 EST on a Wednesday. They arrived at my house on
    the outskirts of London at 13:00 on the Friday.