Conference 7.286::golf

 Hello Fellow Lashers,
    
     This is the first time I have used the notes file and I was delighted
    to find this golf file. You people are as crazy as I am about golf.
     
    Now on the subject of balls. I really feel bad for some of you guys.
    should I use 100 com. or 90 com. ? What is the temp? what kind of
    cover does the ball have? Myself I don't have to deal with all that
    Rocket Science stuff. My name is Hogan so guess what ball I hit.
        

    Hi Gang,
    
    	For Christmas, my girlfriend bought me a box of Pinnacle Gold
    (90 compression).  I've never even heard of them.  I used to use
    Pinnacle 384 (90), but towards the end of last year I switched to
    Top Flite XL's.  Since golf is in large part a mental game, I'd
    like to have some confidence in these balls before I use them. 
    It does say on the box that if you cut the balls with a golf club,
    they'll give you your money back (or replace the ball, I can't remember
    which).  Any other info would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    -Tom

    MR. CRUSHER
    	Rumor has it that the reason you don't care what ball you use
    is because you can't hit it far enough (worm burners) for the com-
    pression to make a difference.
    
    fran

    MY DEAREST FRAN,
    
     NOW THAT WE ARE ON THE SUBJECT OF RUMORS LET ME TELL YOU THE LATEST
    I HAVE HEARD ABOUT YOURSELF.
    
     RUMOR HAS IT YOU CAN'T HIT A BALL OUT OF YOUR SHADOW. NOT BECAUSE
    YOU DON'T HIT A LONG BALL, GOD KNOWS YOU DO, BUT BECAUSE YOU CAST
    A VERY LARGE SHADOW.
    
    THE CRUSHER
    

    Tom,
    
    	  The pinnacle gold 90 compression ball is a nice ball.  I have
    used it often and if you like 90 compression balls it will suit
    your tastes.  I think I read that you have been using XL's.  The
    XL is a rock compared to the gold.  I like XL's more than most people
    and play 100 compression balls or XL's exclusively.  The GOLD is
    a nice cold weather ball when you can't compress 100's.  Great spring
    ball.
    
    Rick

    I couldn't find a topic where this was discussed.  Hope I am not
    being redundant.
    
    I received a case of Ram balls for my Birthday.  Each sleeve has
    balls with different numbers.  Is there a difference in distance?
    Accuracy?  I'm sure the numbers are there for a reason but never
    knew why.  I just pull out any one.  My guess was that maybe 
    they are like clubs.  The lower the number, the further they will
    go.  ???????????????     I'm sure I am probably way off.  Is there
    a certain one to tee off with and then another you should switch
    to when putting?
    
    Pam

    
    Pam,
    
    The numbers have no meaning along the lines that you are thinking.
    They do enable you to tell your ball from your playing partners
    if you are playing the same ball, then you should each use a different
    numbered ball.
    
    Once you have teed off with a ball on a particular hole you DO NOT
    change that ball untill you have holed out, unless you lose it or
    it becomes unplayabled. You can't just use one ball from tee to
    green and then change to a different ball to putt with...!

    
    Gene

    Pam,
    	By saying they have different number on them,do you mean that
    one sleeve has all number 1's in it,the next sleeve having 2's
    etc.....
    	If this is what you mean then the number is only there to
    represent a difference between one ball to the other. This way you
    and hit ,say the number 2 ball and not know where it goes and then
    hit a provisional ball say number 1. If both balls were hit in the
    same general area you could tell what ball was the first hit by
    remembering the order in which you hit them.
    	I was taught to mark each of my own golfballs with a pencil
    mark. In this way they are all different. Technically if someone
    hits a ball into the woods and doesn't see it come to rest and then
    walks into the wood and fines a ball with the same make and number
    as the ball you were playing. You assume that it's your ball but
    for sure how can you tell the ball is yours? Only by marking each
    ball yourself. In a tournament you would have to count this as a
    lost ball and take the appropriate actions/strokes...
    
    Tom

>    	I was taught to mark each of my own golfballs with a pencil
>    mark. In this way they are all different. Technically if someone
>    hits a ball into the woods and doesn't see it come to rest and then
>    walks into the wood and fines a ball with the same make and number
>    as the ball you were playing. You assume that it's your ball but
>    for sure how can you tell the ball is yours? Only by marking each
>    ball yourself. In a tournament you would have to count this as a
>    lost ball and take the appropriate actions/strokes...
    
  
    Tom,
    
    Are you saying that if you hit a ball in the woods and nobody
    actually sees it come to rest and you walk into the woods and
    find a ball that is the same type of ball and number as the
    one you hit, but are not sure that it is yours because it doesn't
    have a unique mark on it, that you have to take a lost ball
    penalty...????? Or did I miss interpret what you said...?

    
    Gene

    Oh is that all the numbers are for?          I feel so STUPID now.
    I'm sure it takes years to learn everything there is to learn.
    Well, now I know!
    
    Pam

    Gene,
    
    Not quoting USGA rules but I'm pretty sure that there is a ball
    identification rule that indicates that you have to be able to 
    identify what ball is actually yours. I have run into a problem
    during league play where we went into the wood and came out with
    two of the same ball. Make and number identical. what do you do
    then? We just turned and allowed play to go on. Technically if
    it were a tournament because you could not tell what ball was yours
    you "have NO" ball in play and a penality is assessed.
    I usually use the pencil lead to put a series of dots on the ball.
    When play gets serious every ball gets marked.
    
    
    Tom

    
    Can anybody elaborate on the rule that Tom is talking about, if
    there is one. I would like to know "before" I get cought in a
    tourney...
    
    Thanks
    Gene

       re .11/.12:
       
       Gene, Rule 23 states that "The responsibility for playing the
       proper ball rests with the player.  Each player should put an
       identification mark on his ball".  I don't recall seeing it done,
       but it seems that the people who mark their ball before a round in
       important matches might be doing the right thing, because they
       would eliminate any disputes arising from two Maxfli-3s being
       found in the same clump of trees.
       
       --Mr Topaz 

Gene,

A quick scan of the Decisions on the Rules came up with the following which
should answer most of your questions.

12-2/1 (Rule 12-2 /Decision 1)

Q. In the area in which his ball presumably came to rest, a player finds a ball 
of the same brand and identification number as the ball he is playing.  Is he
entitled to assume it is his ball, even though it does not carry an 
identification mark as suggested in Rule 12-2?

A. Yes, unless (1) there is reasonable evidence that because of the ball's
condition, it is not the player's ball or (2) another ball of the same brand
and identification number is found in the area and wither ball, from a 
condition standpoint, could be the player's ball.

There are some additional decisions that are related, but I don't have time
to enter them, but the essence of those decisions is that if you can't 
positively identify your ball then you have to proceed under the lost ball rule.

Hope that helps.  

Larry

    
    	Thanks very much Tom, Don, and Larry...! (doesn't that have
    	a familiar ring to it...!!!)

    	I agree that in the case of playing a tournament, it may be
    a good idea to mark your ball in such a way as to identify it as
    the one you are playing.  But honestly, how many times has anyone
    hit their ball into the woods and found two balls with the same
    brand and number and were in the same condition, so you could not
    clearly identify which one was yours?  I seriously doubt this would
    happen more than once in your life, although, in the case of a money
    tournament, I suppose once is enough!!!  :-).
    	Tom, let me ask you this, do you let your opponents and partner
    know what the mark was, before you hit?  Or do you mark it, hit
    it in the woods, find it, and then say, "Oh I'm sure this is my
    ball, because I put this mark right here, on the ball before we
    started playing"?  I'm not trying to say anything against you, just
    asking a question, and you certainly know why!!!  :-)  :-)
    
    Beak

The operative condition here is finding TWO balls of the same brand 
and number. If you find a single ball that matches the one you hit, 
and it is in a location that seems likely, then you have every right 
to assume it is your own under the rules. You don't have to see it 
come to rest; it doesn't have to have your "mark." But if you find two 
balls...well you're out of luck. True, not likely to happen. The 
decision book has an interesting variation on this topic that points 
out the importance of marking your ball:

A fellow hit his ball into the woods. He then declared a provisional, 
re-teed, and proceeeded to do the same thing. Assuming that he'd find 
at least ONE of them he proceeded to look. Sure enough, he found one, 
but since they were both the same number and hadn't been marked 
uniquely, he couldn't identify which one it was. Now you might think 
he could be noble and declare it as the provisional instead of the 
original, thereby taking the stroke-and-distance penalty. Wrong. 
Because he could not positively identify it one way or the other, he 
had to return to the tee hitting FIVE.

Let that be a lesson to you.

    
    Beak, Yes I usually let my partner know. In addition I mark the
    ball I'm playing and a provisional ball in the same manner. This
    way there is no doubt if a competitor questions it. It would be
    kind of difficult to note a mark on a ball in the woods and then
    mentally alter the ball sitting in the cart. Heck if I could do
    that I keep the ball out of the woods in the First place.
    
    Most times my mark is surrounding the number on the ball with
    dots in the bottom of each dimple.
    
    
    Tom

    	RE .17
    
    	That's a valid point.  I don't know the rules in a USGA Tournamnet.
    I know for the PGA tournaments, they are supposed to play the same
    brand and number, throught any given round.  I'm not sure anout
    USGA.  But I think I would be pretty foolish, to hit a Top Flight
    1 into the woods, and then announce I'm going to hit a provisional,
    and pull out another Top Flight 1.  If I did this, and hit both
    into the woods, then I deserve to be hitting 5 from the tee!!! 
    Obviously, if a tournament specifies that you must play the same
    brand and number throughout a round, then it certainly would be
    a plus, and a smart thing, to mark your balls to uniquely identify
    them.
    
    Beak

    
    When playing same make and number ball, each must be marked to uniquely
    identify each ball.  If playing other than PGA rules, each ball
    must be marked to identify it as yours, even if they are all the
    same make but not number.  I usually mix each sleeve of balls so
    that no two balls have the same number. That way there is no question
    as to which ball is being played from the woods or on the green,
    which is the provisional or the one I found.  Nassuas make for very
    suspicious foursomes.......

My favorite golf ball is the one that I'm playing with at the moment
    I never keep any one ball long enough to become really attached
    to a particular brand. There to many wild balls to be
    captured in the woods and replayed to worry about what brand it
    is!!!
    
    
    
    
    
    

Re: .19

Beak you touched on one of the additional decisions that I didn't have time
to enter before.  Luckily for the golfer who is dumb enough to hit two balls
with the same identifying characteristics the USGA gives them the benefit of
the doubt.  If they find both balls they have to pick one of the two balls
and they are sitting three.  If one ball is in play and the other out of play
(OB, in water hazard) the ball in play is assumed to be the provisional and
sitting three.  Of course had they played different balls the one in play
could be the original sitting one!

I know that the PGA tour requires pros to play the same brand/make throughout
a round, but I have never read that they have to play the same number.

In this month's Golf Digest there is an article about the "Real World Rules of
Golf".  It contrasts the rules and what people really play as the rules.  For
example how often does anyone trudge back to where you hit a lost ball from to
take the stroke & distance penalty? 

Larry

    Larry,
    	You hit on an interesting point to emphasize, that is
    
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DROPPING AND HITTING (plus penalty) FOR
    A LOST BALL.  IF NO PROVISIONAL IS HIT THE ONLY REMAINING OPTION
    IS TO GO BACK TO WHERE YOU HIT PREVIOUS AND HIT AGAIN.
    
    	And yes, St Andrew help you if you have to walk back to a crowded
    tee where they have just watched you hunt for a ball and now want
    to hit another (what is the body language sign for shudder? }}}})
    
    	The other one is where you attempt to hit a ball in deep weeds
    instead of going back and hitting again.  Then if you hit deeper
    you have no alternative but to drop into whatever catastophe, take
    a whiff and then start taking 2 club lengths (whiff), 2 cl, w etc
    until you have worked your way out complete with penalty strokes.
    I ended up with 16 on the 15th at Trull Brook doing that.
    
    Bill
     

    Re:< Note 469.23 by CBS::BREEN >

    Unfortunately many people don't think of playing a provisional, so it
    is appropriate in  many  cases  (as  in my league) to take two stroke
    penalty and drop a ball  where  the first one went in.  That helps in
    avoiding slow play.
    
    Tavo

    When you loose a ball it probably is not proper (now a days) to go back
    and hit another.  Dropping a ball and playing from there is fine.  Just
    remember your score on that hole is X.  (Double or triple bogey for
    handicap).  In a match you loose the hole.  In a stroke play tournament
    you'd post DNF.
    
    
    						KO

    I my league we play that a provisional need only be played from
    the tee. For a lost ball after a tee shot we drop and take a
    penality. It's not per the USGA rules but does speed up play.
    If however you loose a ball off of the tee and didn't play a
    provisional then it's hike back to the tee time.
    
    
    Tom

    In my league, we play it that you lose the stroke, but not the
    distance. In other words, you hit three, from point of entry into
    the woods or hazard.  This is done simply because, as Tom said,
    it speeds up play.  You do however, have the option to hit a
    provisional at anytime you think a ball may be lost.  And one more
    thing, if you do hit a provisional, and you find your 1st ball,
    and it is not O.B., you *MUST* play it.  You can take a penalty
    and use the 2 club lengths rule, but you must play your 1st ball
    if you find it.
    
    Beak

    Changing the  current  discusion in BALL TOPIC, but I want to mention
    the detachable add that Titleist placed in this month's Golf Digest.
    
    I consider myself a  average  golf  player (18 Handicap), but one who
    pays attention on things that could make me a better golfer.  But one
    thing I never either care or  payed to much attention was the type of
    ball I played.  Most of the times I play on league rounds a ball that
    I have bought,  i.e., I don't use found balls, but most other times I
    do.  Also I  haven't  settle  down  in  any particular brand of ball.
    Why, because I never payed  to  much  attention to the differences in
    ball construction.
    
    To me a two or three part ball, with balata or Surlyn cover had no or
    very little meaning to me, other that  I prefer surlyn for durability
    (yes, I have to admit some of my  strokes  can  hurt that poor little
    ball  8^).
    
    Well, to the point.  As I mentioned, Titleist  has an add in the form
    of  a  detachable  small booklet, that explains almost everything you
    want to know about golf balls:
    
                History
                Aerodynamics
                Composition
                high-low spin balls
                high-low trajectory balls
                balata vs Surlyn covers
                Two vs three part balls
    
    and abviously which balls are what in its product line (Titleist  and
    Pinnacle)
    
    I learned myself quite a lot.  Maybe many of the things  mentioned in
    the add, have been covered here, but Its good to read them all in one
    booklet.
    
    Tavo

Re: .22

   .
   .
   .
I know that the PGA tour requires pros to play the same brand/make throughout
a round, but I have never read that they have to play the same number.
   .
   .
   .

    This is different from the USGA which requires you to use the same ball
    from tee until holed out (unless lost or damaged).  Does anyone know
    the reasoning behing the PGA rule (assuming it is true)?

The one ball rule is to prevent pros from using TOP-FLITE style balls on
long par 3s.  For someone like the pros, it gives them the ability to use
long irons on the long par 3s where they may have to use wooden clubs
if they used the wound, balata covered golf ball.

Mike

    
    
    It also stops them from playing a high tragecdory ball on downwind
    shots and a low tradegtory ball on upwind shots.
    
    Steve 

The object is use your SKILL to PLAY the course and conditions. The 
game is supposed to be a test of skill, not ingenuity (although that 
can come into play); of measure of character, not technological 
prowess. Hense, you play with the same tools you began with, 
regardless of how conditions may change.

And I don't think the one-ball rule is just a PGA one. I'm sure all 
USGA tournaments employ the same rule. I know that the Massachusetts 
Golf Association makes us follow the one-ball rule in all the state 
amateur competitions. One brand/model--the number doesn't matter.

                    <<< USER$1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< The Good Game >-
================================================================================
Note 687.0                  Wilson Staff Golf Balls??                 No replies
CSTEAM::KAYA                                          3 lines  18-JUL-1989 12:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Has anyone tried the New Wilson Staff Golf Balls?  They have two
    kinds, a two-piece and a wound ball.  Just wondering if they're
    worth trying??

    The two piece ball seems to be more forgiving and a little long.
    It's probably in the head.  However, the ball is like hitting a
    piece of coal.
    
    I would not mind trying the wound ball to see if it has a better
    feel.
    

    I have played a couple of sleeves of the wound ball and found it
    to perform as well as the DT Titelist's that I normally use. The
    cover material seems to be a little softer as I was able to cut
    the ball with the leading edge of my 5-wood on a mis-hit. Also
    I have tried a couple of sleeves of the Maxfli Tour Ltd. MD and
    have been very surprised with the results for a supposedly "hot"
    ball. I get real good bite on the greens and also good putting
    control unlike the Top-flites which seem to leap off my putter
    face. The distance that the Maxfli's give me is also incredible,
    I figure at least a five yard gain average per club under most
    conditions. SO, the Wilson is a good ball but not good enough
    to make me switch. The Maxfli however has me thinking!!! And
    the only time I play a Top-flite is if I have to borrow a ball
    and that is what I get. So much for my thoughts on balls!!!
    
    THE MAD HACKER

    I've gone from 100 compression DT's to Slazenger surlyn 90's... great
    bite>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    
    rick

     For the last several months, I have gone from using Pinnacle 384's to
    the Titleist 384 Tour's. While I have seen some loss in distance with
    the driver and a dramatic loss with the 3 wood from the fairway, the
    distance from my irons seems to be the same. 
     The balata Titleist is something to see on the green. Both my league
    partner and I were very surprised at the difference. It stops real
    well. Even on poorly hit shots when the Pinnacle would bounce and go off
    the green, the Titleist stays on. As far as putting goes, I like the "feel"
    of the balata better, as well.
     The major drawback is the damn things cut so easily that it really is
    getting almost too expensive to play them. I have yet to get through
    nine holes with the same ball I started with.
    
    
    
                  Ken--  

    Ken, have you tried the Titleist 384 Tour DT ? It has much the same
    characteristics as the Balata ball but it has a Surlyn cover. This
    is much tougher and can easily last several rounds if you don't
    lose them like I do!!!
    
    THE MAD HACKER

    	The recent additions to this topic caught my interest since
    I changed back to Titleist balls (384 whatever) last year after
    playing Topflites for the previous 5 or 6 years. I'm not up with
    the long hitters (Rick Blaisdell, Bill Breen) off the tee, however
    I can rely on a consistently sound short game using Titleist balls.
    
    	Over all my scores and my confidence (more important than scores??)
    have improved with the switch. Now, only on the Lonnnggg Drive holes
    do I dig out the Topflites.
    
    Gary

Re: .-1

	I agree with your short game strategy.  I like Maxfli balls, or
Hogan as a second choice.  Both balls seem to have a soft[er?] surlyn cover
which aids in putting.  Of course, this is my preference and I may be
totally off-the-wall.  

Jeff

    
       I play the Titliest balata as well, and have not noticed any
     loss of distance off the tee. In fact, I probably have been 
     hitting it 5-10 yards longer since the change from Pinnacles.
     The balata ball has not helped me on the greens, however, as
     Gary and Jeff can attest. 
    
    -rick

    Does anyone know if there are any balls anywhere for sale that carry
    our company logo?  Can anyone shed some light on this request?
    
    Freebie (company man 8^)

    
    I know that they do sell Titelist DT's with the Digital Logo on them
    along with other DEC stuff in the Salem (NIO) Cafe on Fridays.  The
    balls are not common, but I have seen them.  The sales are run by 
    Employee activities.  You may want to talk to them first to see if 
    they're available. (90 Compression only)
    
    Steve
    

    There is a catalog that a friend of mine in the ACT over in 
    Santa Clara has. It has balls, towels, tees, sportbags, windbreakers,
    etc. I will get it and post the address and phone number of this
    company in the notesfile.
    
    Mad Hacker

      Educational services Bookstore....  
    
    
      When I go to school in BEDFORD,MA.  (BOU) they have a store
    there mainly for foreigners and customers. But I do recall
    every time Ive went that they had a good supply of DT's with
    the digital logo. Don't be surprised to pay maybe 12.00$ for
    3 of them ...
    
    
    BS

    Here in the Midwest, we have some promotional company that has a
    catalog with balls, umbrellas, visors, etc, almost anything you could
    want for that golf outing with that special customer.  I'll get the
    information and post it here.  One of the other people in the office
    ordered Top Flight XL's with the Digital logo.  He also said that you
    could order almost any type of ball from them and have them put the
    Digital logo on them.
    
    Tom
    

    At the Digital Seniors Classic, they give a dozen (I think) to each
    amatuer on PRO-AM Days...
    
    I was lucky last year to find one under a tree...Otherwise, I'm
    not paying $2500 for a dozen balls.
    
    Jim
    

    �I was lucky last year to find one under a tree...Otherwise, I'm
    �not paying $2500 for a dozen balls.
    
    Jim, you'll just have to find yourself a sponsor willing to cover the
    small entry fee.  :-).
    
    Mike

	The Westminster Employee services sells golf balls with Digital 
	Logos on them.  They sell for $6.50 per 3 balls.  Westminster 
	Employee Services is open Monday, Wednesday and Friday 1-3 PM.


	Brian

      			-<May add 20 yards to your drive>- 
    
    Six month ago I started using Bridgestones new ball, Precept. 
    The ball added ~20 yards to my drives, forcing my playing
    partner to start using the ball.  For a two piece it also has a
    good feel.
    
    Good round
    
    
    
    

    
    
    I agree, I don't hit the ball very far, or very accurate for
    that matter.  But this is the first ball I've ever noticed 
    a big difference in distance.
    
    I almost cried when I sliced my last one deep into the woods.
    
    But, Santa has my order for some more!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Shane
    

     Anyone tried the "Bullet" yet ?
    
    --Jack

    I played two sleeves of Bullets.  (4 or 5 rounds).  No noticable 
    difference from any other top rate 2-piece ball.
    
    Rick

    
    To all you titleist ball users. When I was home for the holidays in
    Syracuse NY, I was talking to a friend of mine who is a manager at a
    store called Marjax. Marjax is a store like Hermans sporting goods.
    Well according to my friend you will only be able to buy titleist
    products at pro shops. The balls and equipment you see now is what they
    have in inventory. Personally I find this dishartening. I really don't
    want to start paying $30 for a dozen of balls which is the going rate
    at the proshops in NH.
    
    Mike
    ps: Nothing was said about Pinnacle.

    Is that both DT and Balata? What a bummer. I was told by an old friend
    pro many years ago (when they first introduced Titleist's to the retail
    stores) that stores would hire PGA professionals to there staff so that
    the retail store could sell the balls.
    
    I wonder if this will be the case with the new ruling.
    
    From a marketing look, I can't believe Titleist would give up all that
    revenue to the compitition. I play the Maxfli DDH Balata ball anyway.
    If this is true, I'm sure more players will be making the switch.

That would be a tough decision for Titleist to make. It used to be that you
could only buy them via proshops and only x-outs (or balls close to that were
sold in regular stores. But some balls (like Topflights) started doing
exceptionally well leading others to join in.

The competition has been very very good for us. I imagine that Titleist profit
margins decline in the stores, but I cannot imagine Titleist giving up a
such a large distribution channel.

They did have manufacturing problems of their balata balls this summer - they
probably stocked proshops before department stores (I remember Spag's only had
surlyn DTs). I hope this is what your friend was referring to ...

Eric

    It's not that simple.  My stepfather owns a golf course with a good pro
    shop and I've discussed this issue with him several times. Generally, 
    once a manufacturer starts making it attractive to large outlets to 
    carry their products, it cuts the pro shops out of the action because they 
    cannot compete on the basis of price alone.  To which you might say, "so 
    what?".
    
    Well, pro shops add value to the products they sell by offering service
    that a Herman's cannot.  No only can Herman's (or whoever) take advantage
    of volume discounts by purchasing in enormous quantities, but they
    don't need to pay for any added value.  Once pro shops realize they
    can't sell a manufacturer's line in competition with large retail
    outlets, they stop carrying the product.  I guarantee if Tommy Armour's
    started showing up at K-mart for $298 on sale, there wouldn't be a pro 
    shop in the country that would carry them.
    
    Which doesn't mean that the clubs are of any less quality because you
    bought them at K-mart, but consider the following:
    
    A) Who's going to fit clubs?  Pro shops would probably start charging
    for the service (anyone who goes to a full service supplier of anything
    for a fitting and then proceeds directly to the nearest discount outlet
    to purchase the item is morally guilty of stealing) which would
    probably push the total price back up to somewhere near where it was 
    to begin with.
    
    B) How many manufacturers are going to have any success introducing
    new equipment at K-mart?
    
    Now, balls are not really an item that a pro-shop can add much value
    to.  It is still in the manufacturer's best interest (due to (B),
    above) however to ensure that pro's know and carry their lines.  Which
    is why the balls you see in retail outlets are either not really
    marketed to serious (and I'll sidestep defining what that means...)
    golfers (as an aside, I find more Top-flites than all other brands
    combined) OR they will make sure that they do not discount volume sales
    too heavily in order to keep the pro shops.
    
    To the guy who's paying $30 for a dozen Titleists: Go find a better pro
    shop!  At my stepfathers place, which is run to move a good volume of
    equipment, a dozen DT's are $21.95 and balata's are $24.95.
    
    Al
    

    Titleist introduced a new TWO-PIECE ball this year, it carries the
    titleist name NOT Pinnacle. 
    
    It has a dimple pattern much like the Maxfli ball, look for it soon
    and I suspect there will be an advertizing blitz during the masters
    

    re 58
    
    Anyone using the new Titleist 'HVC' balls? Two guys in my foursome were
    using this weekend and both said they loved them. The dimple pattern
    is really weird. The dimples are different sizes, and seem to cluster.
    
    My friend is sold on them, says they go noticeably further. He is
    hitting the ball veyy good right now, so as I told him, I'm not
    convinced it's the ball.... yet. Seems like they are selling like
    hot cakes though... 
    
    I'm going to try one tomorrow night. I'll post my opinions.
    
    		Smitty
    

    RE:HVC
    
    Many are racing to combat this new varied dimple pattern.  Bullet has
    two new balls, one called the DFS.  Slazenger now has two new balls,
    including a balata.  Hit em' if you got em' I always say.  
    
    SCD

      I tested to HVC last night and  was impressed ! Hit two of my
    longest drives of the year so the distance is there. Hit several
    long irons that stopped well for me so I figure a good spin rate.
    Felt very nice around the greens and putted well also. Overall
    rating of excellent. Longer than Hogans, putt better than Tour
    Editions, softer than Rockflights but the same kind of explosion
    off the clubface on a full swing. I am torn now between using
    the HVC or the new Tour Editions. Used 90 compression balls.
    By the way, shot 39 for 9 holes. My best 9 in over a year.
    
    Mad Hacker

    Ref .61
    
    The Bullet DFS, supposedly, stands for "Designed for Seniors".
    

    RE: 61
    
    maxfli had the pattern first...titleist must have decided through
    research there was something to it because they came up with their
    own variation...immatation is the sinceres form of flattery.....
    
    

    RE: 60
    
    The titleist family of golf balls , from covers to hold on the green
    are constantly changing. From what I've experienced (been playing 
    20 + years) the DT balls hit the green and bounce forward, the balata
    covered balls hit and either stop or come back a bit (depending on
    skill level !) and the HVC's hit and spin to the side ! I assume it has
    something with the dimple pattern.
    
    Titleist is the only ball I play, and have concentrated on the balata
    cover for the past to season. HVC may just be at marketing ploy to try
    to keep a market from swaying to Maxfli.
    
    Tom

    re: last
    
    try the pinnacle gold by titleist...never experienced a TWO-PIECE
    ball that will bite and hold a green the way it does...not sure why
    
    it does have a different dimple pattern than the old "pinnacle 384"
    pinnacle...

     A recent addition to our staff is the son-in-law of a Titleist
    employee. Needless to say we have been tsting many different
    balls lately. I was impressed by the Pinnacle Gold but prefer
    the HVC. I have never seen such a unique dimple pattern and
    variance in dimple sizes. The distance is incredible, great
    control, and I haven't been able to mark one yet. Seems like
    every other type I have played, I have managed to cut in one
    way or another. If I cut one of these HVC's I'm going to test
    the guarantee policy and see if they send me a free sleeve.
       Of course, that is why there are so many brands of balls.
    We all experience different things when we play, and like the
    different ways balls react for us so it all boils down to what
    we each like to play.

       I have tried the HVC,Pinnacle Gold and the new DT,and it
really seems that the manufacterers are really trying to make a 
ball that won't cut,fly long,and land on the greens like a balata.
   If you have ever used a ball other than titlest you'll notice
a considerble difference in flight,distance and putting. The Pinnacle
is a great weather ball,wind,cold etc...it probably flies the longest 
of the three for it is made that way. The thing is there is nothing 
like the the titlest balata 100 compression,it my not go far but the 
action on the greens is incredible. That is why in pro tournaments 
80% of the pros play titlest balata's.
       I have to agree that the HVC is a great ball,but again nothing
beats the dance,and putting of a balata. As far as price well the HVC,
Pinnacle,and Balata are priced the same.



  A balata lover,
  
    marko
 

    1. Goes like a sonovabitch.
    2. Stops.
    3. Stays white
     a. DOESN'T FLOAT.
    
    --Jack

      I must agree that the Titleist 100 balata is one fine ball. I just
    can't afford to get out a new ball every 3 or 4 holes because I have
    either cut the balata or have hit it so hard there are lumps on it !!
    Maybe if I had a high paying management position ! 8^)
    
    Mad Hacker

    What's the construction of the HVC?  Is it a 2 piece ball or is it
    wound?
    
    
    						KO

    After calling around looking for HVC's (everyone I called said they sold out
    within a week) I saw some this morning at Stow Acres CC and picked up
    a sleeve. Haven't played them yet, but to answer -.1, here's the info
    that's on the box:
    
    "Since 1949, Titleist blah blah blah...making the Titleist HVC the
    premier two-piece distance ball... the 1.550 inch solid core of the HVC
    is the largest core in a durable distance ball... The larger size
    complemented by Titleist's patented core formulation maximizes the
    ball's initial velocity... the Lithium Surlyn cover is 25%thinner..
    softer feel...higher spin rate... The patented aerodynamic design is 
    developed specifically for the HVC's 2-piece construction and spin
    rate. Eleven (!!) different sizes of dimples are arranged in an
    octohedron pattern for superior distance and control.. 
    
    Then there's the guarantee where if you cut one in play you get a
    sleeve free...
    
    Can't wait to try them out..
    
    Greg

    	For a softer feel like balata but some hardness like the surlyn,
    try using the Tour Edition by Spalding. I just picked up a dozen last
    night for $22 at NE Golf Supply in Salem. I got the 100 compression
    this time to see what it's like. BTW, I believe it is a two piece ball. 

    re:One ton
    
    I have seen boxes of Balatas at Roger Dunne's for $10.  They are the
    experienced variety, washed and repackaged.  Bt that is cheap for any
    ball, much less a balata.
    
    SCD

    re: .67
    
    	the return policy is for ALL balls made by titleist and it
    	does work....
    
    re: .68
    
    	I agree with the balata but the pro's play in warm weather all
    	the time...here in new england I myself can only use them maybe
    	a week during the season because of the difference in temps. from
    	day to day...so it isn't worth it...

    re: .72
    
    Well I tried the Titleist HVC's today. They sure do go a long way into
    the woods.
    
    Maybe I should go with a 10 pound ball? 
    
    
    
    Greg 

    Question?
    
    Did the new dimple pattern help you find the ball faster?
    
    SoCalDandy

 >   	 Question?
 >
 >       Did the new dimple pattern help you find the ball faster?

    
    Unfortunately, because I didn't have my machete, I wasn't able to get 
    close enough to the ball to find out.... 
              

   I've played the HVC's (90 comp) for the last couple of weeks and really
 don't like the ball at all.  It has the same clunky feel like any other
 surlyn ball and provides very little feel around the greens.  As for 
 distance, they go the same distance as any balata ball I've hit.  About
 the only good thing I can say about them, is that they are almost impossible
 to mark up.
    
    -rick

    Ditto on the HVC- I don't like it at all. Bought a dozen and consider
    it a waste of money.

    Re. -1 SInce you consider those HVC's a waste why not send them 
    to me !!! I can't afford to play with balata balls as I destroy
    one about every 3-4 holes. As far as feel goes, sure, it is a
    two piece rock !! Just a little softer than your average Rock-flight.
    We could go on forever about the virtues or lack there-of of the
    HVC's but it all boils down to personal preference. I like em alot
    but don't consider them to be a vast improvement over other two
    piecers. Just a little better. Since going up to twelve pound ball
    though I am getting better control and break. The ten pounder was
    to light to control and the sixteen was tearing my arm off. Once
    again, personal preference in ball choice.
    
    Mad Hacker 
    (who hit a practice shot into the cup for an unofficial ace 8^( !!)

    re .81
    
    I consider them a waste because they cost more than Pinnacles and don't
    feel as good IMO. I prefer balata but only use them on special
    occasions. And no I won't send them to you cause I've already lost most
    of them! I confess that this is the prime reason for my dislike. I've
    lost three of them in the short rough by the fairway, one in the middle
    of the fairway and others in places where I should have found them. Not
    only are they no better than Pinnacles, they clearly have bad joss.
    
    Chris

    I have recently relocated to Tempe, Arizona. While in my new
    insurance agents office I noticed a sleeve of Titlist DT's.
    I asked her about the balls and she said that she bought them
    through State Farm. She uses them as gifts for people who bring
    in new accounts. They have the State Farm logo on them, but otherwise
    look nice. She pulled out her book that shows all of the gifts that
    the agents can order. The price on a dozen was $15.75, a little less
    that they may be purchased for at the local pro shop. They sell
    locally for around $23 - $24. So I asked her to order me a couple
    of dozen, which she did. She also gave me the also. Very nice indeed.
    It may be worth investigating.
    
    Dave

    What is your preference on golf balls?  Do you really feel there is a
    difference?  Is Titleist the best? I realize this is like asking what
    is the best car to drive...

    
    re .84
    
    It depends on your game, and what you want to do with the ball. I hit
    the ball pretty far, so a topflite dosn't give me much of a advantage.
    I need a ball that will stick to the green when it hits and not bounce
    off. The other factor in choosing a ball is cost. The way I hit a ball
    the balata cover Titleist are too expensive. I'd be buying a dozen
    balls every other week. 
    
    Mike

    re:84-
    
    Golf Digest had a very good piece about this very topic a couple of
    months ago- try and find a copy. Basically they say that your ball
    should suit your game and expectations- like 2 piece balls go further,
    but don't have the spin req'd for real short stops on the greens. Three
    piece balls have high spin rates, but cut easily and are not as long.
    
    They also had some "f'rinstance" situations and explained how to play
    each shot based on the type of ball you use.
    
    Good stuff.........
    
    Sighhhh........it's snowing like blazes here in Andover.Ma........and
    Spring is tomorrow!.........Looks like the dust stays on the sticks for
    a while longer........:-(

    i play whatever balls i find in the woods
    while looking for the ball i hit into the woods.
    
    at what level can golfer's really tell the difference?
    if fred couples or lee trevino hit a variety of balls,
    would they likely be able to say, two piece, or three piece,
    or balata, or whatever?
    
    black nicklaus

    
    Reply -1
    
    	Hi Black Nicklaus,
    
    	I'd say for the short game there's a big difference between
    balata and others. Balata is noticably softer and much less
    reactive to a stroke...  it tends to help eliminate the superball
    type bounce when it's struck a little too firm. 
    	
    	The other aspects of each ball type come into play when they
    hit the green... the softer type will spin and hold better. So 
    if someday you hit a nice 8 iron on the pin, and it hits and rolls
    to the back rough... then the next day you hit an 8 iron on the
    pin and it spins to a stop 4 feet from the pin, you'll see how much
    it matters.
    
    the tradeoff is for more spin you have to sacrifice distance.
    
    	Walta

    
    Another minus to consider with the softer balls is that not only do you
    get more backspin to enable balls to stop quicker but you also get a
    lot more side spin as well, meaning any hook or slice is greatly
    exagerated.
    
    At least with the loss of distance it shouldn't go that far into the
    rough!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (small compensation!!!)

    The other thing about ball choice is in "puttability".  Titleist balata
    is very nice to putt; top flights the opposite and I think anybody can
    tell the difference .
    
    By the way Rick-who-has-taken-to-bashing-my-masters-picks
    
    That was a Maxfli ddh-III on the 6th at Shattuck from where was it
    again Rick, Venus?
    
    (smirk )

    .... until someone gave me a golf-ball warmer for my birthday.  It came
    from Brookstone (a yuppie grown-up toy store).  It has room for three
    golf balls and plugs into a regular wall outlet.  The 'documentation'
    says that you heat them for 4-6 hours...it warms 'em slow and warms
    'em right to the core!  Claims they will stay warm for several hours.
    You're probably asking "WHY?".  The claim is "up to 20% more distance!"
    I must admit...I was/am skeptical.  I was not reassured when I read
    that the device does not violate Rule 39.

      If anyone out there is less skeptical than me, I'm willing to trade
    for a dozen Titlist HVC 90s or whatever (I don't know the retail
    price for the thing).

       PL

    
    Along similar lines, when I was a kid up in Scotland during the winter
    I used to keep one ball in my pocket to try to warm it up and play one
    hole with another. After holing out I would swap them over and play the
    next hole with the warmer ball.
    
    Not sure if it got me any more distance but at least the warm ball
    didn't feel like a rock whenever I hit it wrong.
    
    POL. 

    Has anyone tried Ping balls? I got a sleeve recently of the Bi-Colored
    balls, 1/2 white 1/2 deep blue. I also read that Karsten said the
    advantage of his balls is the consistency of the construction. He says
    you can drop 2 balls and they will sound exactly the same. They fly
    well and putt beautifully. The Bi color is a real advantange in lining
    up the putt and will tell you if your hitting it straight or coming
    across it. Are they legal in tournament play? They are very hard to
    buy, all the places that stock them sell them quickly and are very
    hard to obtain. An order placed in January didn't arrive until April.
    Any comments?..
    
    Chris

    Everything today flies pretty consistently. IMO, the Ping balls are so
    damned ugly that I wouldn't be caught dead with 'em. I don't think it
    matters much either. I'm pretty traditional, although I use a few "high
    tech" clubs (along with a 50+ year old Wilson SW, and a 50 year old
    MacGregor putter...), but I kind of draw the line on goofy colored
    balls. I will acknowledge that they might aid folks with vision
    problems, and I take no issue with that. Everyone's different, I
    guess...
    
    __Jack

    The only time I use fluorescent golf balls is when it is dusk, and am
    having a hard time locating the ball.
    
    bob
    

    
    
    Jack definitely went for the green in two...  :-)
    
    
    Dave

    I am probably  the "statistical golf new products buyer".  As soon as
    something new comes out,  I  want  to  try it.  I have resisted a bit
    with  an oversized driver, but  is  mostly  due  to  $$$$,  (Come  on
    lefties,  I  put  a  note selling  a  set  of  clubs  and  got  ZIPPO
    inquiries!).
    
    So here are a couple of quick notes about two new balls.
    
    TOPFLITE MAGNA

    Yes, they are bigger, no, they didn't do anything  for  me.   Neither
    more  distance or more accuracy (less dispersion).  Nevertheless they
    felt  softer   than  the  traditional  Topflite,  prabably  the  same
    construction as the  TOPFILE  Tour  which I have also tried and like,
    but not  as  much  as  Tour Edition in the "no cut category" for ball
    feel and spin.    BTW,  Juniper  Hill's  pro  shop has an interesting
    display of just the  ball  covers of top brand balls (without center)
    so one can put pressure  on them and the cover of the Tour Edition is
    noticably softer.
    
    TITLEIST TOUR BALATA
    
    I  wonder  why  Titleist  name this  ball  almost  the  same  as  its
    traditional balata ball, they are still selling both models.  You can
    identify the new one with the sleeve box  saying  TOUR  BALATA  in  a
    triangle.  In any case this is a new  one,  main feature being a more
    resistant balata cover.  Well, it's true.
    
    I  am a mid-teen handicapper, so ocassionally :-) I manage to hit the
    ball a  little  thin (read impact of club edge right in the middle of
    the ball), and I have done that to the new ball.  With the older ball
    a HUGE smile cut  would  happen, on the new one is just a small mark,
    that doesn't seem to change  the  shape  of  the  ball.  Also after a
    round with the older ball (if lucky enough not to loose it) the cover
    of the old ball will have been  "shaved",  the  dimples  loosing  its
    edges.  None or very little of that happened to the  new one.  And it
    plays good.  Lots of spin and feel almost as soft  as the old balata.
    I can see my chips taking a first bounce and then holding  much more.
    So  in  summary  I  really  like  it.    I  plan to play this ball in
    important matches  and  use  other balls (read found balls) for other
    rounds.
    
    Price:  $25.95-dozen  at  Nevada Bobs.  $8-and-change for a sleeve at
    the Pro-shop in Stow Acres.
    
    Tavo

    Re -1.
    
    Do you have any imformation on the Wilson Ultra "Competition",I've read
    that they are supposed to give a lot more spin but dont feel as soft as
    the balata ball and an added extra is that you dont loose any distance
    
    
    can this be true ....
    
    Dav
    

    When I was at the Open, I could really tell the difference in golf
    balls, by the way they reacted when they hit the green (despite the
    consummate skills of the ball strikers). The two-piece and three-piece
    non-balata balls would "buzz" a little on landing, take a longer, lower
    hop and trickle to a stop. Higher shots would land kind of "dead" and
    just run out of gas. The balatas took a crisp, higher first hop, and
    really tried to grab. If the green was hard, they trickled to a stop
    relatively quickly.
    
    I just got a dozen "Rexstar" graphite-wound, balata 100s as a gift. It
    will be interesting to try 'em, while I'm cutting 'em to shreds...
    
    __Jack
     

    I just got some of the Titleist HP2s.  It is a high-spin and
    high-performance two-piece ball with a large rubber center and thinner 
    Lithium Surlyn cover for better feel.  This is as close to a balata ball 
    as I have ever played.  It's distance was very good and it stopped on 
    fairly firm greens.  Putting it felt almost like balata. Its spin rate
    from a driver is 3500 rpm. Its dimple pattern is cuboctahedron and the
    dimple count is 440.  $22.50 per dozen at Pro Discount Golf. 

    Is there any effect on the performance of a golf ball that has either
    sat in a pond or out in the weather for an extended period of time?  I
    realize that they will discolor but other than that...
    
    Does the answer to this question depend on the ball construction?
    
    On the same subject, how about the age of a golf ball?  Is there a
    shelf-life?
    
    BS

    
    Anybody try the new Rextar (or Rextor) from Bridgestone?  Billed
    as "the ball Nick Faldo plays."  A friend play's them - says they
    are a very good ball.  I saw some on sale this week - guess maybe
    I'll pick some up and give them a try.  I'll post what I think 
    here in another week or so.
    
    (On sale for $22.50 a doz.)
    
    BP
    

    
    Is there any reasonably inexpensive way to try out many different kinds
    of balls?  in the previous 50 notes or so, the most popular balls seem 
    to be:
    
    	- HVC
    	- Tour Edition
    	- Titleist Balata (or tour balata) 100 compression
    	- Titleist HP2's
    
    And several new balls are mentioned that folks haven't commented much
    on.  Is there any way to try each of these out without spending $$$$
    on balls?
    

    Balls... like the cost of green fees/memberships has gone up.
    
    Might try to buy them used, in the clubhouse they usually have
    them for about $1.00 a piece.

    Anybody have any opinions on lake balls.  My brother has a large bucket
    of otherwise good balls.  Would I get a true feel of the various brands
    even though they may have sat at the bottom of a pond for a year?
    
    BS

    
    re: -.1
    
        if you really want to find out, you could weigh the balls on an
    	accurate scale, and compare the weight of a sample of 'lake balls'
    	with a sample of new balls.
    

    RE: .103
    
    Always walk in the rough and look down!!

    re: .-1
    
    Love to find those Titleists, Maxflis, Slazengers, etc...   Sure does
    seem like a lot of people play Top Flites though...

    re: .108
    
    Actually, it seems like a lot of people _lose_ Topflites...

    
    Green Meadow seems to have a fairly wide selection of found/used balls.
    I stopped over there today and got:
    
    	Titleist HVC 90 & 100
    	Titleist DT 90 & 100
    	Titleist 'Tour' (Balata) 100
    	Pinnacle & Pinnacle Gold
    
    All together these (each in excellent condition) cost under $5.
    
    If you're trying to decide on a ball to play with, this seems like the
    way to go!
    
       :)
    

    Used balls from a lake are probably bleached so they are white and the
    unsuspecting buyer is unaware of their condition. I know as I used to
    bleach them when I was a kid and could get a quarter for a titelist if
    it did not have a big cut. Balls were balata in those days. The guys
    with the hard hats fish them out today and sell them to the clubhouse
    I'm told at a nickle a piece. I bet someone bleaches them as it makes a
    big difference in looks.

    
    An ad for Top-Flight balls contains the following table, documenting
    spin rates as created when hit "full" with a 9-iron:
    
    	Top-Flite Plus Tour Model 100	9386 rpm
    		  Tour Model 100	9267
    		  XL Tour Model 100	9257
    		  
    		  Plus Tour Model 90	9199
    		  Tour Model 90		9079
    		  XL Tour Model 90	9073
    
    	Titleist DT 100			9064
    		    90			8931
    	Wilson Ultra			8455
    	Titleist HVC 90			7933
    		     100		7743
    
    --------------------------------------------------------
    
    With the exception of the last two items (the HVC balls), the 100
    compression balls consistently outspun the 90-compression balls.
    
    I'm currently playing with Titleist DT 100's, and I'm thinking of
    switching to/trying out the Rock-Flite Plus Tour Model 100's.
    These are supposed to have a flight pattern which causes less run,
    and therefore, in combination with their higher spin rates, should
    (?) act well around the green.
    
    Since the Top-Flight is (a) a two-piece ball, (b) is covered with
    something called Zylin which is a somewhat softer version of Surlyn,
    and (b) is known for distance rather than feel around the green,
    is it credible that it could actually be better around the green?
    
    ...And since more spin should mean more action in the air, does this
    ball exaggerate any slice/hook that the high-handicapper may be
    battling with?
    
    

                           Balls on sale in Japan

	DUNLOP		TOUR SPECIAL SF				800 Yen	(2)
			ROYAL MAXFLI	('HT' in USA)		700 Yen (W)
			(user : Isao Aoki, Ayako Okamoto, Tsuneyuki Nakajima,
				Fred Couples, Greg Norman...)
			TOUR SPECIAL				700 Yen (2)
			DDH SPECIAL				700 Yen (W)
			Super 432				600 Yen (W)

		Almost Japanese professional player use 'ROYAL MAXFLI'

	BRIDGESTONE	The REXTAR	(J's BALATA)           	800 Yen (W)
			(user : Nick Faldo...)
			J's BALATA     	(The REXTAR)		800 Yen (W)
			(user : Masashi 'JUNBO' Ozaki,
				Tateo 'JET' Ozaki,
				Naomichi 'JOE' Ozaki...)
			REXTAR Pro Model BL-01			700 Yen (W)
			REXTAR Pro Model SL-01			700 Yen (W)
			Reygrande                               700 Yen (2)
			Reygrande EXE                           700 Yen (2)
			Reygrande Super                         700 Yen (2)
			Reygrande WF432				700 Yen (2)
			(user : Nick Price)

	SPALDING JAPAN	TOUR EDITION	(Only 90)  		700 Yen (2)
			Royal Top-Flite				700 Yen (2)
			PRO Top-Flite				600 Yen (2)
			Top-Flite MAGNA				600 Yen (2)
			Top-Flite Super 492			500 Yen (2)
			Top-Flite 422 SD			500 Yen (2)
			Top-Flite XL				400 Yen (2)
			Top-Flite LG				400 Yen (2)
			Top-Flite 492				400 Yen (2)
			
    	Titleist Japan	TOUR PRESTAGE	(Only Japan)	      1,000 Yen (W)
			TOUR BALATA	('TOUR' in USA)		800 Yen (W)
			(user : Tom Kite...)
			TOUR DISTANCE	('HVC' in USA)		700 Yen (2)
			TOUR WLS	('DT' in USA)		600 Yen (W)

		I think 'TOUR BALATA', new ball in USA is not same
		'TOUR BALATA' in Japan. 'TOUR BALATA' have been on sale
		since 1992.

    	Wilson Japan	NEO-ULTRA	('COMPETITION' in USA)	600 Yen (2)
			(user :	John Daly)
			Super ULTRA AR432      			600 Yen (2)
			ULTRA 432				500 Yen (2)
			ULTRA					400 Yen (2)

    With the yen at .0095 dollars you can apporximately divide by 100 to
    get the price in dollars 
    
    eg        
    DUNLOP          TOUR SPECIAL SF       800  Yen (2)  $8.00 (7.95)
    
    So, Gaito-san come take two weeks in states and leave your golf balls
    and get in your 20 rounds.  I would recommend among the many choices of
    a golf holiday (if taken in the summer) the western michigan area (or
    northern which may even be better).
    
    Bill
    

    
    re: 800  Yen (2)
    
        Does this mean '800 Yen for 2 balls'?
    
     >8o

    Phil
    
    What is the exchange rate for yen to dollars?
    
    Rich

    re: replies on Top-Flite Tours...
    
    I've been playing them for the last year, and really like them
    (though that's not much of a recommendation)...  I can't tell too
    much difference between them, the Titelist DT, and the HVC.
    
    For what it's worth, one of the 2 pros I scored for in the Senior's
    Pro-Am, and 2 of the 3 pros I scored for today in the final round of
    the Open all play the Top-Flite Tour (as does Lee Trevino).  The 3
    pros I crossed paths with finished -1, -4, and -7 for the tournament,
    so I have to assume my high scores are due to the way my club
    contacts the ball rather than something defective in the ball itself!
    
                                Andy Ostrom

	re: .115

>    re: 800  Yen (2)
    
>        Does this mean '800 Yen for 2 balls'?

	(2) - Two piece ball
	(W) - Winding Ball

	That price are all for one ball.

/Koji Kitagaito

	re: .116

>    What is the exchange rate for yen to dollars?

	1 dollar = 104 Yen
	->
	1 Yen = 0.0096 dollars

/Koji Kitagaito

>    So, Gaito-san come take two weeks in states and leave your golf balls
>    and get in your 20 rounds.  I would recommend among the many choices of
>    a golf holiday (if taken in the summer) the western michigan area (or
>    northern which may even be better).
    
>    Bill

	Really ? I can't believe that we can play with so cheap fee.

	If you come to Japan, you must be amaze with a high price of play fee,

	balls, foods in the club house, and large number of people through the

	green.

/Koji Kitagaito

	Many Japanese are convinced that high price balls must fly longer

	than cheap price ball. I was one of them.

/Koji Kitagaito

    
    fyi, at that rate, balls appear to be about 3x more expensive in Japan
    than over here -- if bought in quantities of 3 at a time.  If bought
    in quantities of 12 at a time, a typical price for Titleist DT's would
    be about $23 at a discount golf store, or about $2 a ball.  At nearly
    100 yen to the dollar, that means they're 4x cheaper here!!
    
    I'll ship'em, you sell'em
    
      :)
    

    
    my 2� on Top-Flite Tours...
    
    -  hated them
    -  going back to Titleist DT's immediately
    -  shave easily
    -  felt like rocks
    -  may give rocks a bad name
    
    but then again, I had a lousy round, and that may have had something to
    do with it
    
    	;)
    

    Like DT's a lot, but... wondered if anyone has played the Pro
    Trajectory 3-piece yet?
    

>>    Like DT's a lot, but... wondered if anyone has played the Pro
>>    Trajectory 3-piece yet?
    
Yet, as in they are new?  I thought the Pro traj's had been around awhile.  I 
switched from mainly DT's (and a variety of other cut-proof's and 2 pc) to 
Pro Traj 100 balata this year, and I wish I had done it sooner.  Quite a 
difference (improvment) on and around the green in feel.  A much more solid
feel off my forged irons too.

Will never go back to the click and clack of cut-proof and/or solid balls again.

Bob

	re: .122

>    fyi, at that rate, balls appear to be about 3x more expensive in Japan
>    than over here -- if bought in quantities of 3 at a time.  If bought

	In Japan, there are the package with 2 balls at golf shop.

>    in quantities of 12 at a time, a typical price for Titleist DT's would
>    be about $23 at a discount golf store, or about $2 a ball.  At nearly
>    100 yen to the dollar, that means they're 4x cheaper here!!
    
	I also bought 12 balls at a time at the golf shops selling inport

	goods. Lately I bought Titleist's Pro Trajectory 12 balls priced

	4,600 Yen, and Cleveland's Tour Action 588 wedge priced 9,000 Yen.

	If I bought at the fixed price, Titleist's Pro Trajectory 12 balls'

	price will be 9,600 Yen (not sold in Japan), and Cleveland's wedge's

	price is 18,000 Yen.

/Koji Kitagaito

	re: .117

>    I've been playing them for the last year, and really like them
>    (though that's not much of a recommendation)...  I can't tell too
>    much difference between them, the Titelist DT, and the HVC.

	'HVC' - High Velocity Core

	This is the first 2 piece ball stamped with 'Titleist'.
	So, Titleist has confidence in this ball.

	Titleist-Japan has been giving publicity to Japanese that this ball
	will fly straight with driver, and spin more than any other
	2 piece balls with 5 iron. These things are due to High Velocity Core.

	On the other hand, 'DT' must has same core of 'Pro Trajectory', 'Tour'
	and 'Tour Balata'. Only 'DT' has the cover made from Litium combined
	Surlin.

/Koji Kitagaito

    re: 127
    
    >         On the other hand, 'DT' must has same core of 'Pro
    Trajectory', 'Tour'
            and 'Tour Balata'. Only 'DT' has the cover made from Litium
    combined
            Surlin.
    
    
    not true, the "pro Trajectory, Tour, and Tour Balata" all have a liquid
    center and the "DT" has a "solid"(hard rubber I guess) center....
    
    each has a "million miles of windings around the center" then the cover
    is applied...
    
    

    Correct me if I'm wrong but is the DT people keep mentioning the same
    as the PTS over here in the UK ? (3 piece wound with lithium Surlyn)
    
    Also, just today I've seen an ad (UK) for the new titleist HP2.
    
    HP2 is meant to provide extra spin and a softer feel; I gues they are
    competing with the like of the Ultra Competition now.
    
    Raj

    re: .-1
    
    >Correct me if I'm wrong but is the DT people keep mentioning the same
    >as the PTS over here in the UK ? (3 piece wound with lithium Surlyn)
    
    That sounds like the one.  DT stands for 'Durable Titleist'.  It's the
    3 piece wound core, no cut ball.  In fact, Titleist guarantees it won't
    cut or they will replace it with a new sleeve.
    
    I like DT's very much and, even for a hacker like me, I can certainly
    feel the difference between DT's and HVC's when hit with an iron.
    
    Haven't tried the HP2 yet.  (Which means I haven't found one yet.)  I
    gave up buying new balls and now I usually pay $5 for 6 used DT's at
    the pro shops.  (I'm sure some of the used ones I bought were some of
    the new ones I lost... especially at The Overlook in Hollis, N.H.)

    re: .-1
    
    
>    That sounds like the one.  DT stands for 'Durable Titleist'.  It's the
>    3 piece wound core, no cut ball.  In fact, Titleist guarantees it won't
>    cut or they will replace it with a new sleeve.
    
     Last month or so, I hit a DT ball _real_ thin with a full swung sand
     wedge and cut the ball so that I could see the different materials
     inside. I sent the ball back to Titleist and received a replacement 
     sleeve within a couple of weeks. I'm quite happy with the DT and will 
     continue to use them. By the by, the sleeve box was handy packaging
     when returning the cut ball.

  Ray

    Re:       <<< Note 469.113 by KTOV11::GAITO "Koji Kitagaito Kyoto/Japan" >>>

    Kitagaito-san,

    I  remember  finding in  Japan  balls  that  are  smaller  than  USGA
    regulations, but advertised to play  much  longer.    Are  they still
    available?
    
    Tavo

>    I  remember  finding in  Japan  balls  that  are  smaller  than  USGA
>    regulations, but advertised to play  much  longer.    Are  they still
>    available?

	Could you tell me what is the name of it ?
	I know the balls which violate USGA rules.

		PIRATE	(made in USA)
		SkyHawk (?)
		GORILLA (?)
		PATRIOT	(made in USA)

	These balls are on sale in Japan. But I don't know the ball
	smaller than USGA regulations. These balls are violate about distance.

/Koji Kitagaito

    
    
    Update on Rextar:
    
    Finally got a chance to play the ball.  Good ball - soft feel (of
    course with balata).   More "solid" feeling, thus probably a better
    wind ball.  Would compare it favorably with the Titlest Tour.   It
    does get pretty beat up after 18 holes though, however, it didn't 
    seem to get "out of round."   
    
    Also - played the Lithium/Balata (100 comp) Ram Tour ball recently.
    A fine ball - with good feel - even with the "cut proof" cover.  This
    is a ball that I would definitely recommend.
    
    my 2 cents.
    
    Bill  
    
    

    
    
      I've also played with the Maxfli HT a bit.  I know many of the 
    top pro's play with it, however, I didn't particularly care for
    it.  To me - it just seemed very "flightly" and man - when they
    are talking "pro trajectory" - they ain't a kiddin' on this ball.
    The thing takes off - but, then it falls like a dead duck out of
    the sky!  Thus, one of the reasons you can put a lot of "junk" on
    it and spin it.
      
      I discovered that I had to hit about another 1/2 club because
    this ball just didn't seem to 'carry' very far before falling out
    of the sky.  This is a characteristic that the Titlest doesn't seem
    (to me) to exhibit quite as much.  Here in Colorado - it usually
    is windy and you need to play a ball that will hold its own - and
    this one didn't cut the mustard.  
    
      Now - I guess if your playing in these tour events where the 
    weather is usually great....?   I guess I could understand it.
    
      Bill

    
    I was talking with Mark Calcaveccia's  caddie yesterday at the
    International.  Guess he's playing the Rextar's.  I noticed a 
    few others wearing the Bridgestone logo's so...
    

There is an article in USA Today about a Ct. company that has developed
a golf ball to end all golf balls. Their quote is.....

"The ball flies like a U-2, putts with the steady roll of a cue ball
and bites the green on approach shots like a dropped cat."

They say a pro that tested it hit it 400 yards, and hitting machines
prove the ball out-distances ten major brands dramatically.

The reason is a new dimple that keeps the ball aloft longer and a secret
change in the core that makes it rise faster off the clubhead. Another
change reduces airdrag.

The company claims that they will have to sell it factory direct because
pros will never use the ball because it will turn par 4 courses into
par 3's ! {sic} 

Here's the best part !  to order.....

Write your name and address and "Code Name S" on a piece of paper
and send it along with a check or your credit card # and expiration
date to: (you could always cut and paste letters from a magazine too)

National Golf Center, Dept. S-924
60 Church St.
Yalesville Ct. 06492

        or

1-800-285-3900


Price;

1 dz. 	$ 24.95
2 dz.	$ 22.00 ea.
6 dz.	$109.00

Shipping is $4.00 no matter what quantity you order.

Specify white or hi-vision yellow.

    re: .137
    
    they been around since around 1966-68 time frame when the
    R&A did away with the "old" British size ball and adopted
    the USGA size ball....
    
    their ball is illegal as it's size is 1.62 vs. the legal
    size of 1.68...
    
    it goes like the devil especially in the wind....
    
    they have had many different names on the ball over the
    years