Conference 7.286::golf

	That sounds like a GREAT idea.  I know some of our Augusta
	league members would be interested (myself included).
	What an opportunity to show we *northeners* can play golf too. :-)


					MRM

    	I too, am interested.  I work in Springfield, Mass., but play
    in the Westfield Dec league.  If someone organizes such a tournament,
    keep me posted.  I may be able to get representitives from both
    the Westfield and Springfield Leagues.
    
    Paul Wellspeak  DTN  243-2837  SPO
    

    IT SOUNDS LIKE SOUTHERN N. H. IS QUICKLY BECOMING THE MIDDLE GROUND
    FOR SUCH A CHALLENGE.  THERE ARE A REASONABLE NUMBER OF COURSES
    IN THIS AREA TOO THAT WOULD BE GOOD FOR SUCH AN EVENT.  I'M DEFINITELY
    INTERESTED AND WOULD BE WILLING TO HELP SET SOMETHING UP IF SOMEONE
    VOLUNTEERED TO DRIVE IT.  ANY TAKERS??
    
    DAVE FLEMING 264-8908

    Does such a DEC tournament exist? Of course it does. Unfortunately
    you have to be in the Southwestern Region (or at least use to be)
    It is called the Southwest Tournament and it moves each year to
    a different host city. Sites in the past have been Colorado Springs,
    Pheonix, Tempe, Albuquerque and I think Denver. It is a two day
    afair 36 hole tournament. Each facility (some leagues have two
    facilities just like the NE) gets to have one team. The host site
    determines the method used for determing the championship. In the
    past they have played Low team net, low gross (using regular handicaps
    and the calloway system). Most of the times the teams have been
    10 players with the low 8 scores counting each day.
    
    Anyway it is a lot of fun (I've played in three and helped organize
    1 and was a team captian for two) and the kicker is that in the
    past Dec pitched in part of the cost. Some years (the good old days)
    we didn't have to pay a cent, although recently that was reduced
    to Dec just paying for the Green fees. And of course there is a
    traveling trophy to the winning facility.
    
    Does any of this give you any ideas? 
    
    Roger
    
    P.S. The Southwest Tournament was not just for Golf but for Bowling,
    Volleyball, Softball and probably one or two other sports. It's
    a great time.
    
    

    
    Well,
    
    I assume that this tourney never came off in either 87 or 88 for
    that matter... I would like to seriously try to put a joint league
    tourney together. Any and all inputs are welcome. I would like to
    shoot for a mid summer outing and depending on the turnout it might
    have to be during the week. My thoughts are to not actually call
    it a DEC event, to many particulars involved, so the costs would
    be born by the participants. 
    
    Questions:
    
    		How many players from each league?
    
    		Format?
    
    		How are players from each league picked?
    
    		Where to we try to hold the event?
    
    		What leagues out there want to get involved?
    
    		Who wants to volunteer to help?
    
    		I am sure there will be many more questions as we go,
    		but lets get things rolling now...!
    
    
    		Gene

    Gene, you can count a team from the Augusta Maine league...
    
    
    Jim
    

    
    As a matter of fact, I could be talked into helping you organize
    it..
    
    Jim
    

    Gene,
    
    	I'm sure that we could put together a team from the Springfield
    League. I'd suggest that you play a handicap tournament and that
    each person or team submit some number of scores and the course
    rating where the scores were shot. Then use a USGA index to develop
    a handicap for each individual. 
    	You might be able to get Westover CC in Chicopee Ma. Long,tight,
    challenging course.
    
    
    
    Tom 

    
    RE: .6 & .7
    
    Jim,
    
    Glad to see that Main will be represented. And I will take you up
    on your offer to help thanks...
    
    
    RE: .8
    
    Tom,
    
    I like your idea for figuring the handicaps, perhaps the best way
    would be to have the participants turn in all their league scores,
    up to the time of the tourney, for handicap purposes (allong with
    course rating and slope)...
    
    Chicopee...! Isn't that down near Florida...!?
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I think the best way to do it is to have one person help organize
    things from each league...
    
    I think the location will be some place in southern NH...
    
    I am still open to any suggestions and any replies to my questions.
    
    Surely there are more leagues out there that would be interested
    in getting into this...!
    
    
    Gene

    I'd like to suggest that a neutral course be found for the first
    tournament. In addition I think it would be good if the tournament
    was a team event. Everyone playing and the lowest net total wins
    the corporate cup. Individual awards can also be given out to low
    gross and low net. After the first tournament subsequent events
    would be hosted by the victors at a time and place of their choosing.
    
    
    
    Tom

	I am surprised at the lack of interest in having a league
	tourney, there are a lot of DEC leagues in the area, lets
    	hear from ya. If there are people out there that are interested,
	but just don't like to reply to notes files, then just send
	me some mail at MSEE::KELLEY or give me a call at 261-3193.
	You don't have to be an officer of your league to get this
	going either...

	Here are my thoughts, inputs are welcome. This years event
	would/will be in the southern NH area and probably some time
	in June (probably a Friday). Each team member must submit
	his/her league scores to me along with their course rating
	and slope so that I can figure handicaps for everybody using
	one handicap system instead of relying of each leagues fromat.
	Teams will be made up of 4 people, right now I feel that if
	your league has the interested then you can have more than
	one team, but each team must have 4 people (does anyone see
	this as a major problem). It will be a low team total net
	type format. No two players from any team will play in the
	same foursome, this will give everybody a chance to meet
	new people. There will also be low individual net and
	gross prizes.
	

	Lets hear from some people...!

Gene,
    
I'm still all for the idea.  I'm pretty sure there's enough interest
in our Burlington, VT league to field at least a couple foursomes worth.

As for the particulars:

  Format:  I agree with the idea of submitting several score cards for 
	handicapping.  It's essential fair handicaps are generated for this.
	I also agree with the "team" concept as the primary goal.  Yes,
	have a few "best individual effort" awards, but they are secondary
	objectives.  The idea of 10 players on a team, with the best 8
	counting, sounds interesting. Maybe something on that line....?

  How are players from each league picked?:   Up here I suspect the distance to
	the event will limit the interest to a reasonable number. As handicaps
	make everyone equal, I don't think picking who goes based on golfing
	prowess is fair.  If we had to limit who participates, I'd opt for a
	lottery or something everyone had an equally good chance of winning.

  Where:  I like the idea of a neutral course, if possible.  Southern NH is
	preferable, but MA would be ok too. It's a fair drive, and a little 
	extra distance won't kill us.

  When:	 Mid season sounds good.  For a one day event, an afternoon weekday
	would be fine by me.  A weekend is also fine by me. I suspect others
	in the league might have stronger feelings however.  Personally, I'd
	blow off just about anything for golf (with work leading the list!)

  Who wants to volunteer to help?  A "contact" person from each league should
	be involved.  I'll volunteer to be BTO's "contact".

Eric

    
        Gene, I'll send this on to our league president (ICO). I'm 
      sure we'll be able to assemble a team from our league.
    
    -rick

    Do you have to be a league member to represent a facility?  Would a
    GHIN card substitute for score cards?
    
    
    						KO

    Gene,
    
    I'll send  some  info  to  the  person  who sends messages out to the
    Maynard Golf League  (Stow  Acres), asking him to send a message out.
    I don't know how  long is going to take to make up a team or two, but
    I think you can count on at least one team.
    
    Tavo

    
    RE: .14
    
    	Sorry Kevin, but as of right now this is being set up as a league
    	event only....
    
    
    	Gene

    	The biggest problem I see is determining which 4 golfers from
    any particular league, will participate.  This is why I haven't
    responded as of yet.  Do we set a policy for each sites league,
    so that it's the same?  Or do we let each league/site do whatever
    they choose?  In any event, it will take some time before we can
    even determine which people will represent each site.  I would like
    to play, but I work in SPO and play in the WFO league, and I'm sure
    that would cause some flack.
    
    Beak

    Gene, as I stated earlier, count on a team from ASO...
    
    As far as "setting a policy for each sites league" to 
    determine who will play, I'd propose you DON'T TOUCH that
    one...Let each league decide who they will choose...
    
    A few notes ago stated that "handicaps make things even,"
    so if a league sends there 4 best golfer, well that's ok.
    I can do wonders with strokes on just about every hole (I
    have a 24 handicap)...
    
    New Hampshire course is fine...Northern Mass is ok too....
    
    Unless of course you want to make it Sugarloaf here in Maine ?
    
    Let me know what I can do to help...
    
    Jim
    
    

    
    I think we will just leave it up to each league to determine
    how they are going to pick their teams, as allready stated,
    since it is going to be a handicapped tourney it won't matter.
    I do feel, obviously, that the individual that is organizing 
    things for each league will be part of the team. So, what I
    need is people to volunteer to be the rep. for their league.
    Lets hear from ya ASAP so I can get an idea how many leagues
    are going to be involved so I can talk to some courses about
    a date. The longer we wait the harder it will be to get a date.
    
    Gene

    Any limit on the number of individuals per team and or number
    of teams per league?  I would suppose the course will set some
    limits on participation.  It would be nice if it was conducted
    like cross country meets...  I know wrong sport 8^).  I foresee
    problems if individual "awards" are offered and limitations on
    participation are practiced.

    Regards, Kevin F.
    

    I will speak for the Marlboro Golf League (playing at Juniper Hills)
    even though I am not one of the officers.  We will field a team
    one way or another.
    
    Phillip Yoo

    My opinion.......
    
    
    
    I think that it would be unfair if one league fielded, lets say
    six teams. Assuming four players per team. And all six teams had
    an equal chance in taking this Corporate "Trophy"win. Where as 
    another league only sends one team.
    
    I think that it would be fair to open the day's activity to any
    and all teams that wish to enjoy a day of golf but that one team
    from each league be picked ahead of time before the first tee off
    and that this one team be the representative of it's particular
    league. In this way each league would have even representation.
    However the larger leagues would have a better pool of players to
    draw upon but this is fair because of the size of the league.
    
    It's very important how the handicaps are figured. I think the only
    fair way in by utilizing the USGA's rules. In addition the scores
    submitted should be from this year and traceable back into the
    respective leagues recods keeping. The tournament should be run
    far enough into the season to compile the minimum number of scores
    as indicated within the USGA rules.
    
    
    
    Gee a thought. Wouldn't it be great if we could get the course that
    the senoirs DEC tour event is played at the monday after that
    tournament is over??
    
    That's it for now.
    
    
    
    

    Nashawtuc would be great !!
    
    But, I wouldn't count on...
    
    I was Hole Captain for the 15th hole at last years classic. The
    word I got from some of the members was "the course has been closed
    to us for 8 days..Damned if we going to let any more non members
    on for 1 more day."
    
    I would also suggest a nuetral course..One that no league plays
    on...
    
    As for handicaps, the slope would be the best system to use. USGA
    uses the course rating of your home course to determine handicap.
    Sometimes this is not the fairest way..
    
    My .02c worth...Again...
    
    Jim
    

    Gene, If the intent is a corporate wide tournament might it be a
    good idea to send a letter with information to each personel dept.
    in each facility?  Also the course location,rating and or slope
    should be kept secret until the handicap scores are turned in.
    This might avoid tampering.....
    
    
    Tom

    
    
    	Tom, 
    
    	As I stated in my original entry (99.5), for this year I
    	do not intend to get "DEC" involved in it. More work than
    	I care to take on this year and to many particulars to have
    	to go through...!
    
    	Gene

    
        Gene, the ICO league from Chelmsford plays at Green
       Meadows.
    
    -rick

    Gene,
    
    	I am Vice President of the SHR Golf League. We have approx.
    100 members. I have received numerous memo's from SHR league
    members expressing an interest in getting involved in this event.
    As one of the league officers, I can assure you of at least 1, four
    man team. I am willing to assist in any way in organizing this
    event. I also know of a couple of courses that would host this event
    and the costs would be reasonable. At the minimum, count SHR in for 1
    team. If you need assistance in any way, contact me at MPGS::LAVNER.
    
    Bob
    

    
    
    	Here are the leagues that have voiced an interest so far 
    	and the coordinator for each. If this list is incorrect
    	in any way please let me know...
    
    	Thanks
    	Gene
    
    	DNEAST::STEVENS_JIM	Augusta Maine
    	SA1794::TENEROWICZT	Springfield, Mass.
    	FROST::RICHARDSON	Burlington, Vt.
    	ESPN::BLAISDELL		Chelmsford, Mass. (Green Meadow)
    	DARTS::DIAZ		Maynard, Mass. (Stow)
    	LDP::YOO		Marlboro, Mass. (Juniper Hill)
    	MSEE::KELLEY		Salem, N.H. (Hoodkroft)
	VICKI::VECCHI		Salem, N.H. (Hickory Hill)
	MPSG::LAVNER		Shrewsbury, Mass.

    
    	The deadline to get a league  signed up for the tourney
    	is next Wednesday, April 12th (along with a rep for the league).
    	I will then work out all the particulars with the reps...

    	Thanks
    	Gene

    
    There seems to be a lot of concern over how the team members
    will be picked. My thoughts are that since it is going to be
    a handicapped event, then the leagues do not need to send their
    A players, their D players, nor any particular combination of
    players. Maybe the best way would be to just draw names from those
    people that are interested and that can actually make it, etc...
    
    
    	Let's hear from some more leagues...
    
    	Amherst league?
    	Westminster?
    	Crystal Spring?
    	Etc...?

    
    	It looks like the list in reply .30 is complete. I will
    	contact the people on the list by mail, so that we can
    	work on finalizing plans for the tourney...
    
    	Gene

    
    	One of the leagues that had signed up to play in the tourney
    	has just backed out. If there is another league that would
    	like to get into this tourney please let me know ASAP...
    
    	Thanks
    	Gene

Good luck to all those particiapting in the DEC Interleague Tournament 
tomorrow.  Everyone must be getting excited about it.  Unfortunately, I've
got a conflict and will be playing in another tournament at Laconia CC.  
Good luck Gene Kelly, Rich O'Connor, Bob Carlin, Rick Blaisdell, et al.  

Let's go ICO League from Green Meadows!!

Jeff

    
    For those that are interested in the results of the tourney, it
    was Shrewsbury that won the first Annual DEC New England League
    Tourney last Friday. Mike Longchamps of Shrewsbury had the low
    individual gross with a 77, Tony Gomes of Shrewsbury had the low
    individual net, Jay Pappas of Shrewsbury won the long drive, and
    Ron Dupuis of Marlboro was closest to the pin (I don't know how
    Shrewsbury let this one get away...!). The ICO league won second
    place honors. I do not have the scores with me, but I will
    post more info tomorrow...
    
    All in all we had good weather, just a brief bout with a fast moving
    thunder storm...!
        
    I want to say that I had a good time and hope and think that everyone
    did. I am allready anxiously looking forward to next years tourney...
    
    Perhaps the person/persons that will be running it next year could
    post their name and mailing address as reply to this note so that
    other leagues that want to enter next years tourney can get in touch
    with you...
    
    Gene (who_is_looking_forward_to_bringing_the_trophy_to_Salem_next_year...!)

    Twas a VERY enjoyable time for me Gene, one we are still talking about up
    here in ASO!!  As a suggestion would the folks from Shrewsbury be
    willing to have someone design the VAX golf game course for the course
    that they elect to hold next years event on so that us VAX golf game nuts
    can get a feel for the course?  (Know which clubs to load 8^)  Thanks
    to you and Pat for pulling it off.
    
    Kevin,

    
    Here are the team placements and team net aggregate...
    
    		1. Shrewsbury		395
    		   Bob Lavner
    		   Mike Longchamps (low individual gross winner)
    		   Tony Gomes (low individual net winner)
    	 	   Dave Pratt
    		   Jay Pappas (long drive winner)
    		   Greg Wallace
    
    		2. ICO			406
    		   Rick Blaisdell
    		   Bob Carlin
    		   Dan Collins
    		   Jim Marlow
    		   Jon Sibley
    		   Gary Wilson
    
    		3. Augusta		414
    		   Kevin Freeman
    		   Gordi Rogers
    		   Larry Zayac
    		   Larry Fruzzetti
    		   Ken Flewelling
    		   Dick Slade (NO SHOW)
    
    		4. Salem (Derry)	442
    		   Steve Souza
    		   Barry Sullivan
    		   Mike Carbone
    		   Ed Goucher
    		   Pat Kelley
    		   Gene Kelley
    
    		5. Maynard		468
    		   Rich O'Connor	
    		   Ken Kilburn
    		   Jeff Patt
    		   Fran Merlone
    		   Tony Budge
    		   Dan Thrasher
    
    		6. Marlboro		477
    		   Tony Lysik
    		   Manny Simmonian
    		   Ron Dupuis (closest to the pin winner)
    		   Phil Yoo
    		   Kent Carey
    		   Rich Roscoe
    
    

    how were the handicaps decided. 82 shots better on a 6-man team
    from first to last seems like alot.

    
    RE: .39
    
    I figured all the handicaps using the program that is pointed
    to someplace in this notes file. It calculates handicaps the
    same way the USGA does. I used all league scores turned in up
    to the week of the fourth of July. Do you have a better idea
    for calculating them...? 
    
    BTW, I agree that there was a big spread between first and last.
    
    Gene

    i agree that using the usga method is the best approach. i was
    just curious how 1 team could be more than 10 strokes better per
    player.

    
    Would the difference between the Baltimore Orioles and the Detroit
    Tigers be an interesting analogy???

There are a couple other plausable explanations.

1. Most leagues play 9 holes.  I know that my handicap for 9 holes is 
signficantly less than the MGA handicap for 18 at the same course.  (Currently
I am a 6 for 9 holes, but a 16 for 18 holes).

2. Maybe slope factors aren't taken into account by this program.  All 5 
handicappers aren't created equal.

3. Didn't each league choose their own representatives differently.  I know
the Maynard league had a lottery of those that wanted to participate.  (I 
lost.)  I would venture a guess that a team having too many high handicappers
could have an inflated net score.

4. League rules also affect the handicap calculation.  In the Maynard league
to prevent sandbagging you are supposed to conceed bogey putts for B flight
players that are out of the hole.  (Even if they are facing a 30ft. putt!)

5. Finally I am assuming that the net score was just gross less handicap.  This
doesn't reflect the fact that scores worse than (double/triple bogey) are 
reduced when computing the handicap.  

Boy that was 5 quick ones without even mentioning that some players have been
known to reverse engineer their handicap for strategic advantage!

Larry

    
    I'm not going to go into a lot of explanation about this. I just
    want to say that I calculated all of the handicaps they were not
    done by each league, the program does take slope and course rating
    into account and yes each league was supposed to use a lottery system.
    I would say that the main problem was that some of the leagues did
    not have very many scores to be used to calculate the handicaps.
    Again if anyone has any better ideas for coming up with handicaps
    please let me know...
    
    
    Gene

Gene:  
	The way you did it looks good to me.  I think (personal opinion coming)
the it's quite possible to have this sort of thing happen.  I play at a fairly
difficult course (slope 122).  When I go to and easier course I play better than
the handicap indicates.  Yea slope is a nice way to attempt to make things more
fair but when you play on a harder course you develop a game that is perhaps 
more solid than if you played at an easier course.  So it's quite possible that
you can play much better than your handicap on a lower rated course.


						KO

    Gene, thanks for a job well done.
    One of the items not mentioned ws that some of us had a bad day.
    Sometimes that happens. Some of us had good days. That happens, too.
    I'll say this, I have my calendar open and ready to book the tourney
    for next year. (looking for redemption!!)

    Ok Guys...Here it is!!!
    	Most of the following information is tentative, but this is the
    direction I am going in.
    	First of all, myself and Mike Longchamps will be the coordinators
    for next year. I can be reached at MPGS::LAVNER. Mike can be reached
    at JUPITR::LONGCHAMPS.
    	At this time we are looking at using a team calloway system to
    tabulate handicaps. Another words...how you play the day of the
    tournament will determine your handicap. This will eliminate the need
    to collect scores from the people who will play and make the organizing
    and logistics easier for us. At this time we are looking at GLEN ELEN
    Country Club in Millis Mass as our course. This will make it a neutral
    course for everyone. It is approx. 6700 yds long. It is fairly wide
    open. At this time I would accept up to 2 foursomes or 8 players from
    each league. We are looking to get visors/shirts ect for each player
    who participates as well as many other prizes. We have not determined
    the fee or the date yet because we have to meet the GLEN ELEN reps
    first. Mike and I are open to all suggestions. I will update this note
    as info becomes available. ONE IMPORTANT ITEM....PLEASE SEND ME MAIL
    DIRECTLY WHEN SIGNING ON. Sometimes weeks go by and I don't get to read
    the Golf Notes....
    
    Bob
    
    PS: Great job on the 1st tournament Gene!!! We plan on keeping the
    trophy boys so bring the best that you got...you'll need it!!!!!!!
    
    

    	Here is an update on the 1990 version of the Corporate Tournament.
    The 2nd annual tournament will be held at Glen Elen CC on June 22nd.
    That is a Friday. We are currently making the arrangments with Glen
    Ellen to make that happen. What Glen Elen wants to know NOW is how many
    players are we talking about. So...I am asking all facilities to
    respond NOW!!!! We have to make the reservations very very soon. Like
    previously stated...we can have up to two foursomes from each facility.
    Glen Elen is a great place..nice course...So lets get this thing going
    and respond now. Please respond by sending mail to MPGS::LAVNER. Do not
    respond in this notes file!!!
    
    Bob
    
    

    	You may want to change the day of the tournament. The Digital
    Seniors Classic is that weekend the 22-24, and many folks may be
    working at the classic that would have played in the tournament!

	The date for the Corporate Cup has been officially changed to
Friday, June 29th. We have made contact with Glen Elen CC and all preliminary
arrangements are set. We will be teeing off starting around 11:00 am. Cost
per person will be $45.00.

	What I need NOW is a head count for Glen Elen. With in two weeks I
will need a pretty accurate count of how many people are going to play. I
can take up to TWO foursomes from each sight. PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND 
INDIVIDUALLY. RESPOND AS A FOURSOME!!! I NEED THE FOLLOWING INFO FROM
EACH FOURSOME:

                          NAMES
                          SIGHT CODE
                          DTN-WHERE AT LEAST ONE GOLFER CAN BE REACHED
                              OUT OF THE FOURSOME.

	As far as handicaps are concerned I am leaning towards using the
Callaway system...That would eliminate handicap tabulation and all the rest
of the fun stuff. Unless there is a tremendous outcry of objections I will
go with that format. If there is major objections..I will go with the same
format as last year. REMEMBER...SEND YOUR FOURSOMES TO MPGS::LAVNER NOW!!!

Bob

    
      I must have read the last few replies in this topic before my
    first cup of coffee in the morning.  It didn't register at all
    with me that this was the league tournament Gene held at Charmingfare
    last year.  Maybe we should create a new topic for this year's
    tournament and allow a few more weeks for registration.  I know
    our league will be sending representatives, however, we are still
    in the process of getting our league going (new members etc.) and
    we haven't published info about this tournament to them yet.  The
    reason for the new topic is to keep it current with noter's directory
    listings.  
    
    -rick

    Bob, what's the latest with this tournament ???
    
    Directions, course description ???
    
    
    Jim