Conference 7.286::golf

    	Does anyone know the exact ruling on if or when you can change
    your ball when playing?  Recently while in a match, I noticed my
    opponent changing his ball every time he got on the green.  When
    I asked him, he said he uses a Top Flite off the tee and to the
    green, but putts with a Titliest ball.  I'm not sure what the 
    U.S.G.A. ruling is, but I think on the P.G.A. tour that you can
    change your ball until the next hole unless it is unplayable,
    for example it is cut or sliced, and even then you have to get a
    ruling from an official and the ball must be the same brand and
    number.  I'd like to know the exact ruling on this both in the 
    U.S.G.A. and the P.G.A..
    
                                     Paul  W.
    
    

    The rule on changing a ball is basically the same for the USGA and
    the PGA (I think.)  Under USGA rules you can change a ball deemed
    unplayable at anytime.  In stroke play you should consult a marshal,
    in match play, your opponent.  Once on the putting surface you can
    change the ball at your ball at will however you may NOT put that
    ball back into play.  In other words if your opponent played through
    the green with a top flite, then changed to a titlest that is ok.
    But if he then took the top flite out again on the next tee (the
    same top flite) he looses that hole.  If he uses a different top
    flite through the green and a different titlest on the green that
    is ok.  The key is if a ball is removed from play, it may NOT be
    returned to play in the same match.
    
    	Hope this helps!!!  Knowning the rules can save/win you some
    $$$$$$$$$$.
    
    
    
    							KO

    Are you sure??? I don't know the exact rules about changing
    balls (so excuse me if I'm wrong), but my understandings are
    different.
    
    o A ball can not be deemed unplayable while playing through
      the green. If the ball gets scuffed from a tree or smiled
      from a "samarai" swing it is tough bananas until you reach
      the green. Once on the putting surface the ball may be ruled
      unplayable, with opponents assent, and replaced.
    
    o You must play the same type (brand, compression, etc) throughout
      the round. This may be a PGA variation. The rule is designed to
      prevent golfers from using low flying surlyn balls on holes into
      the wind, and then switching to high flying balata balls on the
      downwind holes. A player must use the same type of ball for the
      entire round. Having a special putting ball sounds a bit suspicious
      to me ...
    
      (some pros used to match flight charactoristics of the ball with
      hole design and wind conditions. The Golf Police decided that
      they received an unfair advantage and that their results should
      be more a matter of golf skill.)!
    
    However, I'm a hack and use whatever I find in the woods. If you
    are competing in a real tournament though be very careful - your
    weekend partners won't care, but an opponent may call it to your
    attention at the worst possible time.
    
    	Eric 

    
    A ball may indeed be changed through the green.  However you can
    not just pick it up and change it.  A marshal or your opponent should
    be notified that you wish to declare your ball unplayable.  They
    may refuse to let you change your ball but if you have put a "samarai"
    move on it any reasonable person will let you change it.  On the
    green of course it's up to you.
    
    As for the PGA rule, that may well be true.  I don't play by PGA
    rules but as I remember the USGA there is no mention of using the
    same type of ball throughout the round.  (That may be because my
    budget only allows 1 ball per month.)
    
    I also agree that anyone that changes types of balls on the green
    is a bit shakey, but then again I remember when I use to have "water
    balls".  The point though is that once a ball is taken out of play
    it may not be returned to play during the round.  So when you tee
    it up, make sure that you have enough ammuntion to finish!!!
    
    
    					KO

    	Does anybody know what the exact ruling is on an 
    unplayable lie?  When can you deem a unplayable lie and 
    where do you drop the ball or place the ball after it has 
    been deemed unplayable?  What I'm looking for exactly, is
    if you can advance the ball by swinging lefty and you're
    normally a righty, do you have the option of deeming the
    lie unplayable or must you try to hit it lefty?
    

    This is a rule that is poorly understood.  I must admit that I too
    am still a little confused.  Recently I used the rule in a tournament
    and it was given to me as follows.  You can declare the ball unplayable
    at your option, you need not ask anybody.  You do not have to swing
    at it from the opposit side (although I've done that because it
    was the best option)  When you declare the unplayable lie, you may
    move the ball back, all the way to the tee if you chose for a 1
    stroke penalty.  The results of the situation that day were: I moved
    the ball out of the thickets toward the tee until I came to a spot
    where I wanted to drop the ball. (in the fairway some 40 yards behind
    the original spot) I dropped the ball there and hit three.
    
    p.s. I finished 2nd by one shot in the tournament but I still think
    it was the 2 three putt greens on the front in the final round!!!
    
    
    						KO

    You can call any ball you want unplayable. Of course it costs you
    one stroke and your partner is liable to kill you if it is out in
    the middle of the fairway. You can also advance a ball swinging
    left handed if you are right handed. The trick here is which club
    to you use. Personaly I don't have one of the two way chippers (I'm
    not even sure they are legal) so I will use a 5 wood for those
    situations (yes virginia it ruins the looks but saves a stroke).
    
    By the way I've only hit from the left side once and achieved the
    desired results. Normally I would try to hit from the right even
    if I couldn't get a good swing because all I can do from the left
    is punch the ball about 20 or 30 yards.
    
    Roger
    

     
     There are a few bogus answers in this note; the best thing I've read
     here is that not knowing the rules can cost you a lot of bucks and/or
     a lot of aggravation.
     
     Changing your ball during a hole:
     
     You can't do it just because you're on the green.  Rule 21 says
     "A player must hole out with the ball driven from the teeing ground
     unless a Rule or Local Rule permit him to substitute another ball."
     The only rules that let you substitute another ball are when you
     lose a ball or if it is "unfit for play".  Rule 28 says that "The
     ball may be deemed unfit for play when it is visibly cut or out
     of shape or so cracked, pierced, or otherwise damaged as to interfere
     with its true flight or true roll or its normal behavior when struck.
     The ball shall not be deemed unfit for play solely because mud
     or other material adhere to it, its surface be scratched or its
     paint be damaged or discolored."  If you think your ball is "unfit"
     and your opponent disagrees, a referee or "the Committee" decides
     the matter.  Also, you can substitute for an unfit ball only "on
     the hole during the play of which the damage occurred".
     
     As for an unplayable lie, it's correct that you can declare your
     lie as unplayable anytime you like.  However, you CANNOT move it
     "as far back toward the tee" as you like!  When you declare an
     unplayable lie, you take a one-stroke penalty and play your next
     shot either:
           
           - From the exact same place that you took your previous shot
             (the one that got you into the mess), just like the Out
             of Bounds rule, or
           
           - Within two club lengths from where the ball lays, but not
             nearer to the hole, or
           
           - As far back as you want, ***keeping the point where the
             ball lies between you and the hole***.  So, if you hit
             your tee shot into the woods, you can go deeper into the 
             woods, but you can't go thirty yards back into the fairway.
     
     Oh, yeah.  Anyone who plays would do well to spend a buck or two
     and keep a rule book in his/her golf bag.
     
     --Mr Topaz

    
>               - Within two club lengths from where the ball lays, but not
>             nearer to the hole, or
 
    
    	Mr. Topaz,
    
    	One question.  When I was faced with the unplayable lie, my
    original thought was that it was 2 club lengths 'from the nearest point
    of relief' no nearer the hole.  Does the rule really say 'from where
    the ball lays'?  
    
    
    
    						KO

My vote would be for the "nearest point of relief" too.  When I put myself
in an unplayable position I make sure its UNPLAYABLE!  no relief in sight!  :-)

Anyhow it seems mighty unreasable to assume something will be available within
2 club lengths.  If you're up against a tree, that's one thing but if you land
in a swamp, that's something different.

I sort of view casual water as an unplayable lie with a free drop.  I know that
in this case you can move your ball more than 2 club lengths since the water
can be extensive.

-mark

    I vote for 2 clubs from where the ball lies (sorry, Mark).
    Though I should wait for Mr. Topaz' answer - he's got The Book!
    
    Anyway, if you're behind a tree 2 club lengths should do it ...
    it is not as if you have crossed an OB line or a hazard (where
    you could go to the point of entry). I cannot see you going
    back through the woods to the point where the ball first entered.
    If you are in true deep sneakers you can always return to the scene
    of the first hack and try again.
    
    Also, be careful about 150 yd markers. They are often bushes in
    which case you do not necessarily get a free drop just because you're
    stymied. That fact that this living bush is 150 yds from the green
    is incidental when it comes to getting relief. Be sure to check
    the local rule if you're in a tourney.
    
    The logic of the balls makes sense, though I remember Larry Rinker
    declaring a ball scuffed from a cart path as unplayable. His fellow
    pros let him relpace it on the green without question. He did not
    replace it from off the green (maybe he didn't notice?).
    
    	Eric

     Sorry -- it's within 2 club lengths of where the ball lays.  The
     complete rule is this:
         
         If the player deem his ball to be unplayable, he shall
         either --
         
         (i) Play his next stroke [using the same stroke-and-distance
         procedure as the out-of bounds rule, from the spot where the
         previous shot was made, or 
         
         (ii) Drop a ball under penalty of one stroke, either (a)
         within two club-lengths of the point where the ball lay, but
         not nearer the hole, or (b) behind the point where the ball
         lay, keeping that point between himself and the hole, with no
         limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped.
         If the ball lay in a bunker and the player elect to proceed
         under this Clause, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
     
     If your ball is in casual water, then you have two choices (only): you
     can either play it as it lies, or you can move it to the closest spot
     that offers relief from the casual water and is no nearer the hole. 
     
     Cheers from the Rules Committee,
     
     --Mr Topaz
     
     p.s.: Anyone interested in playing at Amherst this afternoon around
     2 or 2:30?

    
            Anyway, if you're behind a tree 2 club lengths should do it ...
    it is not as if you have crossed an OB line or a hazard (where
    you could go to the point of entry). I cannot see you going
    back through the woods to the point where the ball first entered.
    If you are in true deep sneakers you can always return to the scene
    of the first hack and try again.                              
    
    If by this you mean that if you are out of bounds you can go to
    the point where you left the course and drop the ball, this is
    incorrect.  The out of bounds rule is stroke AND distance.  This
    means that you must go back to the scene of the crime counting the
    stroke that put you OB and 1 penalty stroke then have at it again.
    (e.g. if your tee shot goes OB you must go back to the tee where
    you are hitting 3.)  I don't remember the rule number but maybe
    Mr. Topaz will be nice enough to look it up.
    
    	The 150 yr maker rule is indeed as you state.  At my course
    they just changed the 150 yr markers from blue stakes to bushes
    just for that reason :-( 
    
    	BTW on the OB rule.  If your ball is touching the OB stake,
    you can not take an unplayable.  The ball is out of bounds.
    
    	One of the generalities in the rules is that the player is allowed
    a fair stance and swing at the ball.  That's why I think that the
    nearest point of relief is applicable to the unplayable.  That doesn't
    mean that you can take it out of the woods, that just means that
    you can move it (with the penalty of course) to a point where you
    can fairly address the ball.  You may not want to do this because
    your exit path is blocked but that's golf.
    
    p.s.  I think that this is a great discussion!!
    
    
    				KO

re:.12   (ii) Drop a ball under penalty of one stroke, either (a)
         within two club-lengths of the point where the ball lay, but
         not nearer the hole, or (b) behind the point where the ball
         lay, keeping that point between himself and the hole, with no
         limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped.
         If the ball lay in a bunker and the player elect to proceed
         under this Clause, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
     
Boy, I'm sure I don't play a serious enough game (currently) to get too excited
about the finer details.  As far as unplayable i ALWAYS take a swat at the ball
no matter where it is...

Anyhow, if I'm reading this correctly, doesn't ii-b say you can take a drop
anywhere behind the ball as far back as you want?  granted this isn't along the
line of flight which I had hoped for but it's sure more than 2 club lengths too.

-mark

I just thought of something wild (though I'm sure others have too).  Since I
do not carry 14 clubs in my bag, could I call my ball scooper a club?  It has
a grip and a head.  So what if its 8 feet long!

Now, using the 2 club length rule I could drop my bay 16 feet from the 
unplayable lie!

-mark

    Any "club" in your bag has been approved by the fellows in the hallowed
    halls (USGA?) in order to be "legal".  Therefore, your retriever
    is just that, a retriever and not a club.
    

	 Rule 1  states  clearly that the purpose of the game is to, through
	 CONSECUTIVE  strokes,  get  the  ball from the teeing ground to and
	 into the hole.

	 Since a  Hole-in-One  is  just that - getting the ball from the tee
	 into  the  hole  in  ONE  stroke - no CONSECUTIVE strokes have been
	 made.  Consequently, a hole-in-one violates Rule 1 and is therefore
	 no illegal!

	 

    	Re: .14  As far as unplayable, I always take a swat at it.
    
    	So you've never had an unplayable lie than.  An unplayable lie
    is exactly what it sounds like, "UNPLAYABLE"!!!  If your ball is
    wedged between 2 three-foot boulders its "UNPLAYABLE".  If it's
    stuck in a tree 15 feet above your head it's "UNPLAYABLE".  Or if
    it just happens to be laying on a bed of rocks, you might not consider
    it unplayable, but if you don't care more about your clubs than
    you do about 2 lousey strokes in 1 round, than you're taking it
    to serious or you're just plain crazy!!!
    	I don't take unplayable lies either, unless of course the ball
    is actually "UNPLAYABLE", or is in a position that risks damaging
    my clubs or injury to myself.  Now Mark, I ask you, have you had
    an unplayable lie before?
    
                                      Paul W.
    

Well, I've always hated those silly little happy faces and never use them.
Perhaps I should have on my comment about unplayable lies...

In fact, one who has a slice as wild as mine finds himself in all kinds of
unplayable situations!  After all, it's a lot harder to have an unplayable lie
when you're always straight down the middle.

I once heard a story (which probably means it's NOT true) of someone who had
gotten his second hole-in-one in a short amount of time.  Rather than have to
buy another round rumor has it he declared his ball unplayable (from within the
cup), took a drop and tapped in for a par.  Isn't an unplayable lie 1 stroke
and not 2 as mentioned in .-1?

I guess this is one for all the "officials" out there.  Do the rules say that
a hole is over when the ball lands in the cup OR when the ball lands in the cup
and the player says it's over?  In other words, could this strange person
descibed above REALLY declared his ball unplayable?

-mark

    Mark's comment about the hole-in-one reminds me of an odd situation
    that happened in my foursome this summer. (Honest ... would I stretch
    the truth??) The rules question is can a found ball be declared
    lost? Here's what happenned ...
    
    We are playing one evening at Marlboro CC. Ed, for lack of a real
    name, has been scraping the ball around the course and has exhibited
    very poor putting skills. Naturally, we remind him of his successes
    as Ed is already 2 down.
    
    The 7th hole is a 165 yard par 3 with an open front and a mound/bunker
    to the left. Ed (who is a good player - 10 hdcp) bounces one 35
    feet from the hole. Unhappy with that he hits another. The ball
    is heading left, catches the bank of the trap, and rolls sideways
    across the green straight into the hole!!
    
    We're giggling on the tee. We tell him to declare his first ball
    as lost, don't putt, and to take his par 3 to the next tee!
    Disregarding his lack of humor at this point, would this be legal?
    
    	Eric
    

    
    This is beginning to be more fun than actually playing, especially
    when it's raining.
    
    re .19
    
    One cannot "declare" the ball to be "not be holed out".  A ball is
    "holed" when it lies within the circumference of the hole and all
    of it is below the level of the lip of the hole.  
    
    What about the ball that is leaning against the flagstick, partially 
    above the level of the lip?  If in the course of removing the
    flagstick, if the ball "falls out of the hole", and comes to rest on the 
    putting surface, it must be putted out ( with the additional stroke(s) 
    counted ).  One should not jiggle the flagstick, but straighten it,
    and slowly remove it.  In most cases, the ball will come to rest
    securely in the bottom of the cup, "holed" out.
    

    re .20
    
    He probably cannot declare the ball lost but he might declare it
    unplayable. Now in your informal group that was probably ok but
    in tournament play he would have had to declare the second ball
    as a provisional and I doubt that he could do that (mayble not sure
    is the better term here. That's why I care a rules book just in
    case).
         
    Roger

    	Concerning .20 :  I think this would be a violation of the rules
    	for the simple fact that if this were allowable, everyone would
    	hit 2 tee shots and if the second one was a hole-in-one, decide
    	not to play the first one.  this would eliminate traps and rough
    	on the par 3's.  I think the proper word for this is a "Mulligan".
    	Which in my book is like adding a 4th strike to baseball or
    	a 5th down to football.  We all hit bad, I mean not good, shots
    	and this is part of the game.  Golf is not a game of second
    	chances.  I could have shot 73 or 74 last saturday with 3 or
    	4 "Mulligans", but unfortunately!!!
    
                                              Paul W.
    

    I think what needs to be determined is at which time can you hit
    a provisional ball. Since I don't have my rule book at my desk
    (although I'm begining to think I need it here for this notes file)
    I can't say at what time you can play a provisional ball. Now had
    this player said, "I'm sick of it". Declared his ball unplayable
    and hit a second then the 3 would have to stand. In fact if this
    were tournament play or god forbid league play, the fact that a
    second ball was played would cancel the first shot. Note I'm saying
    cancel the shot not the strokes. That is the main difference between
    a muligan and what was described in .20. If the player in .20 was
    playing a muligan then his score was 1 not the 3 that his friends
    suggested. 
    
    The arguement about eliminating traps isn't viable either since
    the average golfer can reach most par 3's in two which is substantial
    less than the 3 it would take if he played the "mulligan" discribed
    in .24.
    
    If some one has a rulebook nearby maybe they could look when you
    can play a provisional ball. 

	From Rule 30:

	 When a ball may be lost outside a water hazard, the player may play
	 a provisional ball from a place as close as possible to where the
	 original  ball was played. If the original ball was played from the
	 tee,  the  provisional  ball may be teed anywhere within the teeing
	 ground.

	 The player  must  make  clear to the other players his intention to
	 play  a  provisional  ball.  The player  may  continue  to play the
	 provisional  ball  until he reaches the point where he believes the
	 original ball to be lost. If the original ball is found, it must be
	 played.  If  the  original  ball  is  not  found, the player should
	 continue playing on the provisional ball.

	 It seems  that the issue here is the definition of 'may be lost'. I
	 don't  think  that  you can hit a provisional ball just because you
	 think  the  original  ball  is unplayable. For instance, if you see
	 your  tee  shot  on  a  par-3  go  into  the hole, you can't play a
	 provisional  ball  because  even if you can say you think the ball 
	 may be lost, you KNOW where it is.

	 Also, when  a  ball  has  been  holed out, for instance by making a
	 hole-in-one,  play on that hole is finished (remember the object of
	 the  game  is to put the ball in the hole), and therefore you can't
	 declare  the ball unplayable because the ball isn't in play anymore
	 - it became out-of-play as soon as it went into the hole.

	 P-O    :-)

    	.26 makes a good point by emphasizing the meaning of provisional.
    When you hit a provisional, you only continue to play that ball
    if you cannot find the original ball.  Otherwise you must play the
    first one.  Also, in the beggining of this subject, it was mentioned
    that when you declare a ball as an unplayable lie, you cannot take
    the ball and place it back on the tee, but have 2 club lengths in
    any direction no closer to the hole or as far back as you like in
    a line drawn from the hole to your ball and continuing back.  In
    no instance, when you declare a ball as an unplayable lie, does
    it state that you may tee up the ball.  Therefore a second tee shot
    can only be considered legal if the first ball is lost or out of
    bounds.  The same goes for any other attempt at a second swing.
    If you find the first ball, you must play it.  You can determine
    it as an unplayable lie, but you must follow the rules under this
    section.
    
                                               Paul W.

     
     Our friend and moderator Mr Litby makes an excellent point about
     a provisional ball: you can hit one only for a ball that may be
     lost or out of bounds.
     
     re .27:
     
     Sorry, but I believe you're mistaken.  If you declare an unplayable
     lie, one of your options is to go back to the spot where you hit the
     previous shot; if it was your tee shot that got you into the
     unplayable lie, you can tee up your ball and hit it from anywhere on
     the teeing area.
     
     --Mr Topaz 

    re .27 using .12
    
    Our hypothetical player could do this. He could declare is first
    ball unplayable and hit his next shot from the tee using the same
    rules as out-of-bounds play (please read .12 i). At this point the
    first ball is no longer in play unless it was holed out (ace) which
    would mean subsequent strokes would be practice (which I think in
    this situation is not under penalty). Note he didn't declare this
    as a provisional. Personally I think the risk is too great. I mean
    how many hole in ones have you had let alone witnessed.
    
    Now the real question. If you and your buddies were out for your
    weekly outing and your buddy hit just a horrible shot on a par three
    but it was still playable. He then says he can't stand it anymore
    so he tees up another shot which goes in the hole.
    
    Would you:
    
    a. Give him a real break and just count it as an ace.
    b. Tell him you thought he said the first ball was unplayable and
       he was hitting 3 and had just made par.
    c. He just took a practice shot which is under penalty (I think
       two stokes) which you will tack on to his score when he officially
       holes out.
    d. Ask him "just how do you want me to score this?"
    

    RE .29
    
      Of course, depending on what we were playing for.......
    
       E.  All of the above

        Re:< Note 41.30 by USWAV3::FAGERBERG >

        
                I'm surprised  that  the  last  many  notes haven't taken
        moral issue with  the  scenarios described.  All of them describe
        obvious sandbagging of the  worst kind.  It is a rule of the game
        that each player is obliged  to  play the bect game he is capable
        of, and declaring a ball unplayable in order to avoid a low score
        is comparable to the darkest sins imaginable.
        
        Disgusted

	 I definitely  agree  with .31. People who give each other mulligans
	 and  try  to  bend the rules to their own advantage should not play
	 golf,  they  should become politicians instead. Besides, anyone who
	 after  scoring  a  hole-in-one  says  "I'm sick of it" and tries to
	 declare the ball unplayable should be put away for life...

	 Mr. Litby

    Ok let's try another one. You and your partner are playing a tight
    match. All players have reached the green. You and one other playing
    opponent haven't yet reached the green. Your partner marks his ball
    and move toward the hole to remove the flag. Your partners ball
    is north of the cup having a down hill lie. Upon removing the flag
    you partner accidently drops the ball. In an effort to speed up
    play he wacks (my description - stroke if you prefer) the ball which
    fell out of his hands towards the eastern edge of the green. Quickly
    your partner's opponent calls practicing on the green.
    
    Would you define the opponent's actions as:
                                              
    a. Entirely appropriate and justified.
    b. Technically correct according the rules but extremly petty
    c. Not a violation of the rules and bring it before the rules
       committee. 
       
    Roger

	 Well, since  you have to go by the rules, my partner would have had
	 to  be  penalised  IF  IT  COULD  BE ESTABLISHED THAT IT WAS INDEED
	 PRACTICE.  Which  of course it wasn't - at the most it was a breach
	 of  etiquette,  since you're not supposed to whack away at the ball
	 after finishing play on a hole.

	 I, being his partner, would never accept the opponent's opinion. So
	 if  he  insisted,  I  would demand that we consult the committee to
	 resolve the discussion. Answer: (c).

	 Personally, in   any  case,  I  think  the  opponent's  action  was
	 ridiculous  and certainly petty. Even if he could get the committee
	 to  agree with him, I think he displayed no sportsmanship at all. I
	 would never play with someone who uses that kind of tactics.

	 Your hypothetical situation proves a very important point: You must
	 follow  the  rules of golf, but you should never try to use them to
	 your  own  advantage  in this way. You always have to be reasonable
	 when  interpreting  the  rules. It is not reasonable to do what the
	 hypothetical opponent did.

	 Mr. Litby

    Unfortunately I had this situation once. What the guy was trying
    to do was shake up our team. However my partner in this case said,
    'There is penalty for that huh? .... Well Ok' and promptly hit his
    ball down the middle. His opponent wasn't expecting that flubbed
    his tee shot, almost went OB on the next. Chipped over the green
    and missed again. I think he ended up with a 9 on the whole.
    Some would call it due justice.
    
    Roger
    

    	OK guys here comes another question.  I'd like to know the rule
    on playing a ball out of a sand trap.  This past week, my 2nd shot
    rolled into a trap next to the green.  As I was approaching the
    trap, I could not see my ball and thought I got a break.  But as
    we searched for the ball, we found that indeeed I was in the trap
    and also in a 2 inch deep depression, which appeared to have been
    made by a dog.  My opponents told me I had to play it the way it
    was and so I did, not knowing the exact ruling on this.
    	I personally believed that I should have been able to rake out
    the depression and take a drop back into the trap with no penalty.
    My reason for this was the depression was caused by an unnatural
    occurance.  Had it been a depression left by a golfer who did
    not rake the trap when he was done, I wouldn't have said anything
    because golfers are natural to a golf course.  
    	Anyways, I took a double bogey on the hole and was not to pleased
    with my opponents or my efforts.
    
    PS: I'm not that great out of traps anyway,
         but.............
                                                    Paul W.

    RE .31
    
       Its really a tragedy your lofty moral status was offended by
    some "hypothetical" chit chat over rule bending that never really
    happened.  Notice that in this scenario they were buddies, playing
    a friendly weekend match.  Like anyone else this dastardly person
    would have been berated for such breaches of the rules and his
    correct score recorded.  I, like many others, do not play with cheats,
    loudmouths or people who $2 means more than honesty.  We observe
    the rules and turn in correct score cards.
    
    
         Just one passing thought on your moral indignation, we play
    "down lies", absolutely no perferred lies in the fairway; can you
    say you have never rolled the ball over in the fairway??????????

    Wow!!! Fortunately most of us are rational and apply common sense
    to the rules of golf. This note is interesting, though, for the
    number of pitfalls that await when you play with a rules stickler!
    
    re: .29  We where playing a friendly evening round of golf, which
    is why no one cared when Ed aced his practice shot (which it would
    have been). No way Ed was going to claim an ace, and there's no
    way we would have given him one. In fact, it was never seriously
    suggested. We all had a good laugh, Ed picked up his aced ball
    and two putted his first for a par. We felt that was fair. All's
    well that ends well.
    
    re: .36 What could be more natural than a dog 'digging' in sand?
    You don't get a free drop, but you do get sympathy. If you drop
    then you drop in the hazard counting the stroke (and hence must
    get up and down to save bogey). It's crummy luck.
    
    One must be careful in hazards though. I was playing a match in
    a tournament at Marlboro. My tee shot on the par 3 12th (I'm exciting
    around par 3's) came to rest in the stream fronting the green; my
    opponent is safely putting. If I drop, then it is likely that I'll
    lose the hole - my one chance is to hit a miracle water blast and
    make the putt. So far so good. When I entered the water I see this
    very large rock near my ball, but not on the swing path. Without
    thought I pick up the rock and toss it into the woods! I guess I
    didn't want to take any chances of ruining my club on it and I used
    the Ogren rule to call it a loose impediment. I was lucky - my opponent
    just smiled and said "you can't do that Eric", but he figured I
    had suffered enough and didn't claim the hole. He won it legit with
    a two putt par.
    
    Hazards are hazards. Be careful about making convenient rules in
    them.
    
    	Eric

        Re:< Note 41.37 by USWAV3::FAGERBERG >

                You  did  not  detect  the  tongue-in-cheek  tone  of  my
        message.  But  I  will  continue  to contend that it's immoral to
        gain an unfair advantage  by sandbagging to protect a handicap or
        cheating to win a match.
        
                Your last example was bad.    The  DEC league has a local
        rule that allows preferred lie, and I would be stupid not to take
        advantage of it.  But when I play in  a match without this rule I
        do not move the ball.
        
                End of subject (for me at least)
        
        Anker

    	Good point in .39, not taking advantage of local or league rules
    may give your opponent an advantage that could have been avoided.
    Also, playing preferred lies in the fairway can be determined by
    the league you play in, or by the course you are playing on, or
    by the tournament you are playing in.  This rule, in my opinion,
    was to compensate the non-pro or weekend golfer for the fact that
    he usually doesn't or cannot play on a course in the condition of
    those played on the pro tour.  A lot of courses I have played were
    not in very good condition and preferred lies did not become a
    luxary but instead a necessity!  If you always play on courses that
    are in great condition, then you shouldn't have to use preferred
    lies.  Unfortunately, not all of us can afford memberships at private
    courses or public courses in good shape that cost you an arm and
    a leg to play 18 holes.
    	Sorry, but I to play in the DEC league and they do allow 
    preferred lies in your own fairway.  Unfortunately, this doesn't
    stop some people from taking preferred lies or rolling it over in
    the rough.  These are the players who really abuse the advantage
    of preferred lies.
    	Thanks for the sympathy Eric.  As I mentioned, I did play the
    ball as it lied, in the dogs paw print, and suffered the consequences.
    But let me ask you this:  If there's casual water in the fairway,
    you're allowed to remove it and drop it at the nearest releif no
    closer to the hole.  What would happen if there was casual water
    in the rough and you landed in it?  The rough is also a hazard and
    water there, natural or casual, is as natural to a golf course as
    a dog digging in sand traps.  What would you do?
    
                                               Paul W.
    

    re .40
    
    Casual water can occur in a hazard (including sand traps) and your
    allowed a free drop from it at any time (Rule 25-1 (see I brought
    my book in)).
    
    b. RELIEF
    If the player elects to take relief, he shall proceed as follows:
    
    (i) Through the Green: If the ball lies thought the green, the point
    on the course nearest to where the ball lies share be determined...
    (ii) In a Hazard: If the ball lies in or touches a hazard, the player
    shall lift and drop the ball either:
    
     (a) Without penalty, in the hazard, as near as possible to the
    spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on ground which
    affords mazimum available relief from the condition;
    		or
     (b) Uner penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the
    spot where the ball lay directly between himself and the hole.
    
    re .36
    
    I had a situation like that once in the final match of the regular
    season. We were in 2nd place and our opponents were close enough
    to us that whoever won the match took 2nd. In my case about 1/2
    of the ball was above the water. I thought, gee this is just like
    a sand shot. Well it was except that sand will churn and cause the
    ball to drop dead or backup when it lands. Water allows it to continue
    to spin and run. I hit a perfect shot for sand but ended up 15 feet
    past the whole after hitting within 2 feet. I tried to talk the
    putt in but it won't listen and I lost the hole. Incidently we lost
    the match on the last whole. Actually we all tied put my partner
    had lost one hole and they one by two points, just enough to give
    them 2nd place.
    
    Roger
    

    re .40
        It probably IS enough said.  The subject of prferred lies, it
    seemed that the rule was only the width of the head of the club
    eg 3-4" either way, no closer to the hole.  It became move it any
    where to improve stance, angle, etc.   At our club ($580/yr), we
    stopped perferred lies because of abuse.  Fortunately our fairways
    are gorgeous, I haven't had a bad lie all year.  My handicap has
    dropped 5 strokes.
    
        Sharon Country Club is a 9 hole course, second oldest in the
    country.  Short, 3003 yards, small fast greens, narrow fairways,
    deep rough, in short its a finese course.  Its rating is 68, and
    the course record is 64 (par 70).

    	Where is this Sharon Country Club located?  If I'm ever in 
    the area, I'll drop you a line and we can play.  I love to play
    on courses I don't have to use preferred lies.  In many tournaments
    I've played in, you had to play the ball down and I did, but they
    were usually on a very nice course.  My 9-hole handicap is 5 in
    my league, but we do use preferred lies in that league.  I would
    probably rate as a 6 or 7 handicap for 9 holes on some of the 
    tougher courses though.  Your course sounds like the type that I
    could either shoot 36 or 45 depending on how accurate you are that
    day.  
                                              Paul W.
    

    re .43
      Sharon, Massachusetts, 25 miles due south of Boston.  I work in
    Burlington (UFO), Mass., You have a standing invitation to play
    there.  My dtn is 277-7238.
    
        Bill Fagerberg

    	Thanks Bill, next time I'm out to the Bedford Training Facility,
    I'll let you know.
    	By the way guys, I did as Mr. Topaz suggested and broke down
    and bought a USGA rule book.  They can be bought at Fran Johnsons
    in West Springfield, Mass. for only 49 cents apiece.
    	Now in regards to my trap predicament, .40 quotes exactly from
    the';Iyrule book except he leaves out something.
    Rule 25-1 a. INTERFERENCE
    	Interference by casual water, ground under repair or a hole,
    cast or runway caused by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a 
    bird occurs when a ball lies in or touches any of these conditions
    or when the condition interferes with the players stance or the
    area of his intended swing.                                    
    	At this point the ruling quoted in .40 takes over and you can
    indeed take a drop within the hazard with no penalty or take a 
    drop outside the hazard with a one stroke penalty.
    	I will keep monitering this topic for the benifit of those 
    out there who like myself, up until yesterday, do not have a 
    rule book to go by.  Thanks to all of you who answered or tried
    to answer my questions.
    
                                  Paul W.
    

    	Sorry, in .45 I meant to say in regards to .41, not .40.
    

	 The book

		"The Rules of Golf - Illustrated and Explained"

	 by Tom  Watson  with Frank Hannigan, is an excellent book for those
	 who  want  a  rule  book  that  explains  the  rules  of golf in an
	 easy-to-understand  way.  It  can  be  bought from Golf Digest Book
	 Services.  It's  a little too large to be carried around in the bag
	 (unless you have a BIG bag) but it's great as a reference. There is
	 a  large section of examples of official rulings - great to resolve
	 agitated discussions...

	 -- Mr. Litby

	

    Regarding an earlier discussion (around .3 or .4) about changing
    balls in mid hole.
    
    The PGA tour has a local rule about what kind of ball a player can
    use. The ball that you declare to be using within your group is
    the ball you are stuck with throughout the round. What I mean is
    that if you say you are using a Titleist 3, balata cover, 100
    compression, then you must use a Titleist 3, balata cover, 100
    compression during the entire round. Therefore, you must carry a
    lot of them in your bag.
    
    This applies to the PGA tour only.
    
    On a side note, Billy Kratzert's caddie only brought 3 balls during
    a tournament one time last year and Bill lost all of them. He had
    to drop out of the tournament because he could not finish the round!
    
    Mike

    Well, I've just perused all 48 replies to this note and have not seen
    these mentioned so here goes.

    1.  In a reply in the registry note someone mentioned exceeding 14 clubs
	in the bag.  Is this a USGA rule?  I had always thouht it to be a
	PGA rule.  Would someone clarify?

    2.  A friend of mine has a five iron he keeps in his bag that is only
	about 1 1/2 feet long.  It aparently got broken and was then
	regripped.  He keeps for *those tight spots*.  He claims the club
	is legal because only the shaft length was altered and not the
	club head.  Is he right?


		MRM

    RE .49
    
    	Rule 4.4 of the USGA Rules of Golf says you may carry a maximum
    		 of 14 clubs in your bag.  This also applies to the
    	         PGA.
    
    	Rule 4.1a says "The club shall be composed of a shaft and a
    		  head.  All parts of the club shall be fixed so that
                  the club is one unit.  The club shall not be designed
    		  to be adjustable except for weight.  The club shall
    		  not be substantially different from the traditional
    		  and customary form and make."
    
    	I would take this to mean your friends short 5 iron is an illegal
    	club and cannot be used.
    
                                                    Beak

                                  
.51>        	I would take this to mean your friends short 5 iron is an illegal
.51>    	club and cannot be used.
    
    I don't think so.  If the club was legal before it was shortened, then
    everything about the club referenced in rule 4.1a is still true.  4.1a
    doesn't say anything about the length of the shaft.
    
    Your interpretation would make a club designed for a child illegal.
    
    As an example of the oppisite extreme, has anyone noticed the putter
    Johnny Miller is using these days?  The shaft of that thing is longer
    than most drivers.  If abnormal shaft length made a club illegal, then
    I'm sure he wouldn't be able to use it on the PGA. 
                                                            
    Keep on swinging... Maury.
    
    

    	I don't know Maury, this is a tough one.  The rule I posted
    in note .51, is an exact quote from the "Rules Of Golf".  It did
    say the club shall not be adjustable except for weight.  Now, whether
    it was on purpose or not, the club was adjusted in length.  The
    rule also stated, that the club shall not be substantially different
    than its traditional form and make.  I propose that that clubs
    traditional form and make, was not intended for it to be so short.
    This was my reasoning.  I'd have to get a ruling from the USGA to
    be 100% sure.
    	As you stated about youth clubs, they are intended to be shorter,
    and do adhere to the rules, because they are not substantially
    different than their traditional form and make.
    
                                               Beak

     I think this whole discussion is silly, so I'll jump right in.
     
     Beak, I interpret the word 'adjustable' differently than I think you
     do.  I understand it to mean that the club can't be adjusted during
     play (for example, a club head that can be turned to different angles
     by adjusting a screw).
     
     Also, Appendix II of the Rules gives a more complete description of
     the legality of clubs.  It discusses the club head (its shape and
     face), and also the shaft.  The only mention of length that I can find
     is that the neck of the club (connecting the head to the shaft) cannot
     exceed 5".  Of course, the Rules also state that if you're not sure if
     the club is legal, you could send it to the USGA and they'll tell
     you. 
     
     --Mr Topaz

    
    Beak, I can (almost) see where you are coming from on how you interpret
    the 'form and make' portion of the rule.  But I still believe its
    referring more to things like the 'rake' irons (the head looks a lot
    like a sand rake) that were designed for sand bunkers, and the irons
    with holes in the heads for use in water hazards.  
    
    A cutoff club still has a proper head, a straight shaft, and a grip;  I
    would interpret that as adhering to the 'form' portion of the rule. But
    now that I think about it more, what is exactly meant by 'make', I
    don't have a clue. 
    
    However, I would still have to disagree on the 'adjustable' portion of
    the rule. A cutoff club is not adjustable.  That is, its playing
    characteristics cannot be changed during play.  Yes, it has been
    'adjusted', but it is not adjustABLE.  (Case in point:  Arnold Palmer
    is constantly tinkering with his clubs off the course.  He plays with
    the length, the grips, the weight, everything.  But when he is on the
    course, the clubs remain as they were when they left the workshop.) 
    
    Anyway, we could argue this thing back and forth forever, but only
    a ruling from the appropriate body (in my case, the RCGA) will solve
    this one.
    
    Maury...
                       
    

    	Okay, Maury.  I'll settle for a draw on this one.  You are right
    in that we'd have to get a ruling to solve it.  The conversation
    is nice though.  I must admit, I would never question it, if I saw
    my opponent using such a club.  Maybe the 14 club limit rule was
    put into effect, just to stop the use of these so called gimmick
    clubs.  What do you think of these long shafted putters, that seem
    to be very popular on the senior tour?  Jim Feree has one that is
    almost as long as he is tall.
                                          Beak
        

    OK, here's a new one:
    
    	Is it legal to use a tee or other object (leaf, twig, etc) to
    help line up your shot?  I recently played with a guy who did this,
    and it seemed like a good idea.  I was discussing putting with 
    another friend and suggested doing this on the green, and was told
    that it is illegal on the green if you leave the marker down while
    putting.  What he suggested, was 1) marking the ball, 2) placing
    another mark to set the line, 3) replacing the ball with the name
    pointing along the line of the putt, and 4) removing the line marker.
    Since the line marker isn't actually present when you putt, he thought
    that might be legal.  Is this legal, and can you do it in the fairway
    and/or the rough also?
    	In short, what is the rule about using a "foreign object" to
    help line up your shot?
    
    -Tom

    re: .-1

>    	In short, what is the rule about using a "foreign object" to
>    help line up your shot?

    Unfortunately you are out of luck.  The rule says if you are off the green
    all marks placed to indicate the line of play must be removed before    
    your shot.  On the putting green no mark can be placed anywhere on the
    green.

    However natural aids like brown patches of grass, a tree in the distance,
    the label on your ball when putting can be used.

    8-2. INDICATING LINE OF PLAY
    
    	A. Other Than On Putting Green
    		Except on thr putting green, a player may have the line
           of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one shall stand
           on or close to the line while the stroke is being played.
    	   Any mark placed during the play of the hole by the player
           or with his knowledge to indicate the line shall be removed
           before the stroke is played.
    		exeception: Flagstick attended or held up - Rule 17-1.
    
    	B. On The Putting Green
    	 	When the player's ball is on the putting green, the
    	   player's caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie may,
    	   before the stroke is played, point out a line for putting,
    	   but in so doing the putting green shall not be touched in
    	   front of, to the side of, or behind the hole.  No mark shall
    	   be placed anywhere on the putting green to indicate a line
    	   for putting.
    			   PENALTY:
    	   Match play - Loss of hole;   Stroke play - Two strokes.
    
    
    
                                      Right from the USGA
                                      RULES OF GOLF
                                                                 Beak

Re:.49 (Is a 5 iron with a cut down (appx 1.5 ft.) shaft legal?) -- I 
noticed that all of the replies for this are from last year (1987) so I 
took a look in the 1988 USGA Rule of Golf and low and behold found an 
answer. In Appendix II (Design of Clubs), Rule 4-1b Shaft it says "The 
shaft shall be at least 18 inches (457 mm) in length. It shall be 
straight from the top of the grip to a point not more than 5 inches (127 
mm) above the sole, measured along the axis of the shaft and the neck of 
the neck or socket." From the original description of the club in .49, it 
sounds as though the club in question is legal.

      A couple of items... what would YOU have done?

    First... the other team has a neat way of cheating on the green.
    At one point player A has his ball in line with player B so he
    has to mark.  Player B marks for him and rolls the ball(tosses
    on the green) back toward his own ball where player A is 
    standing to watch his partner putt, naturally A is behind B's
    ball.  Player B gets a GREAT read this way.  I said nothing,
    figuring we could win anyhow.
        
    2-man best ball tourney... I',m in the trap, we've been holding
    up play for the entire round (not me I assure you, I HATE to 
    play slow), our opponents even plumb 7 irons from 150.  When
    entering the trap I throw the rake in the trap so I don't have
    to get out of the trap after hitting to get it.  I make a nice
    (read rare) sand shot and one-putt for par.  My partner bogies
    and the other team scores par.  On the next tee the other team
    says, "we won that hole, we're up").  I say "no way... we tied!"
    The other team charged me a penalty for throwing the rake in the
    sand!!!  We lost the match by 1 hole!!!  I blew up the last 3
    holes after the above incident.
    
    HOW LEGAL OR ILLEGAL WAS THIS STUFF!!!!
    
    Rick

      You all may find this an interesting statement on the up and
    coming golfers in the world.  A PIAA (PA. Interscolastic Atheletic
    Association) rule for high school golf follows.
    
    A played may roll ALL lies regardless of position.  
    

    Why?... because they found the high school kids would cheat and
    roll the ball anyway and the didn't want to disadvantage honest
    players.  Sad huh?
    
    Rick    

    I know there was a rule change that allowed you to take the rake
    in the trap with you.  It came up at our club and the pro made a
    point of telling everyone about it.  
    
    Chuck
    

    re: .63
    
    seems I remember something about this being changed also...
    wasn't it something to do with testing the conditions and intent?
    
    I beleive it was started that the rake could be taken into the trap
    and as long as it wasn't stood up in the trap by the contestent
    which could constutute testing the soil..(in other words you could
    lay the rake down but not stand it up?)then it was not a penality(sp)
    

    Rule 16-1F  Position of Caddie or Partner
    While making the stroke, the player shall not allow his caddie,
    his partner or his partner's caddie to position himself on or close
    to an extension of the line of putt behind the ball.
    Match Play-Loss of hole
    This, I believe includes BOTH sides of the hole and ball. In the
    Maynard League at Stow there is a rule that if a putt is conceeded
    by an oponent to prevent a team member from giving his partner the
    line and the team makes that conceeded putt THEY LOSE THE HOLE.
    this rule was instituted because  the perpetrators violated the
    SPIRIT OF THE GAME.
                                                            
    As to claiming the hole at the next tee, if any player had played
    from that tee before anything was said the claim is not allowed.
    However you must state that there is aviolation as soon as you are
    aware of the violation. There is an article in this months GOLF
    magazine with regard to that.
    
    In my opinon you could have claimed the first hole, and dissallowed
    their claim on the second.

    I need to be less of a nice guy I guess!
    
    My partner wanted to call the other team on the hole they rolled
    the ball on, I just didn't want to ruin the spirit of the match
    by picking.  Obviously he was right and I was wrong.  This all was
    born out by my treatment on the "rake" hole, as it will go down
    in infamy so named.  We argued a little before anyone hit off the
    next tee after the "rake" hole, but when it got ugly the one fellow 
    just teed and hit.
    
    Thanks for the input, I will NEVER happen again.
    
    Rick

    In the first case on the putting green, it appears to me to be 2
    violations.  Standing behind the player putting as mentioned, but
    also as I read rule 22, it says that a player must lift his own
    ball.  I interpret having you parnter do it as a violation of rule
    22 causing loss of hole.
    
    Also there is no mention of NOT bringing a rake into a bunker. 
    There is mention of using a rake to move sand in a bunker to find
    your ball.  I read that to mean that you can bring anything into
    a bunker as long as you don't "test the surface"!
    
    
    
    					KO

    
    I also believe you disqualified yourself by NOT calling him. I forget
    exactly what the rule is but it has to do with agreeing to ignore
    a rule of golf. It goes like this. If I see you break a rule, either
    on purpose or out of ignorance, and I don't call you on it, I am 
    in violation of the rule, and I believe I am disqualified from the
    match.  This came up during the playoffs when my partner was called for
    something, the person that called it explained the rule and he said he
    had been disqualified from a tournament for letting an opponent do 
    something minor.
    
    It pays to call him, if he gets upset, explain this rule.
    
    --Bob

    
    I don't have my rules book handy, can somebody help me with this
    one? If you are on the green and in stroking the putt you hit the
    ball twice...! Is this just the two stokes (one for each hit) or
    is there also a panalty stroke? Also what is the case if this were
    to happen off of the green?
    
    Thanks
    Gene

       re .69:
       
       Rule 19-2 doesn't seem to make any distinction between this
       happening on the green or anywhere else --
       
           "If a player strike the ball twice when making a
           stroke, he shall count the stroke and add a penalty
           stroke, making two strokes in all" 
       
       --Mr Topaz 

    My first attempt to answer this resulted in a dropped network
    connection.  So, one more time....
    
    Don quoted Rule 14-4.  I'll help confuse things with
    
    Rule 19. Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped
    
    Rule 19.2  By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment
    
    	b. Stroke Play
    
    	If a competitor's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped
    by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or EQUIPMENT,
    THE COMPETITOR SHALL INCUR A PENALTY OF TWO STROKES.  The ball shall
    be played as it lies, except when it comes to rest in or on the
    competitor's, his partner's or either of their caddies' clothes
    or equipment, in which case the competitor shall THROUGH THE GREEN
    or in a HAZARD drop the ball, or on the PUTTING GREEN place the
    ball, as near as possible to where the article was when the ball
    came to rest or on it.
    
    	EXCEPTION: Dropped ball - see RULE 20-2a.
    
    	(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie
    - see Rule 1-2.)
    
    Based on the brief info you supplied, Gene, I checked the Decisions
    on the Rules of Golf and found nothing that applies.  Could you
    post more details on the situation in question?
    
    					Mike

    
    Mike,
    
    	Quite simply if you make your stroke at the ball and the club
    	head makes contact with the ball twice. You see it happen
    	once in a while when you are in the rough near the green and
    	are trying a short chip and you stike the ball and on your
    	follow through you strike the ball again while it is still in
    	the air...
    
    	Now, does this mean that it is one stroke for your intended
    	stroke at the ball and a one stroke panalty or does it mean
    	one stroke for your intended stroke, and one stoke for the
    	second time you actually hit the ball, plus a stroke penalty...?
    
    	Gene

    
    	Another question...
    
    	If you are in casual water in a sand trap you can take a drop
    	(still and the trap and no closer to the hole) without a penalty.
    	Now lets say you are in casual water in a sand trap and the
    	only place you can drop and still remain in the trap but out
    	of the water is closer to the hole. Now what do you do...?
    
    	Or you are in casual water in a sand trap and the entire sand
    	trap has water in it. Now what?
    
    	Gene

    Rule 14-4.  Striking the ball more than once
    
    Rule 19. Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped
    
    I think that if it was hit by the player in the process of making his
    stroke (on follow thru) Rule 14-4 applies.  If he saw that his ball
    hit the wedge that he had set on the green after his putt then Rule 19
    applies.  If his ball was going to go by the hole and he stuck out
    his club to stop it then rule 14-5 would apply with a 2 stoke
    penalty.

    For example Ray Floyd was penalized under Rule 19 for driving his
    ball into his bag which the caddy had laid down in the rough in
    the landing area.  However T.C. Chen was penalized under rule 14-4
    when he earned the nickname "Two Chip Chen" during the final round
    of the US Open.

>    	Now, does this mean that it is one stroke for your intended
>    	stroke at the ball and a one stroke panalty or does it mean
>    	one stroke for your intended stroke, and one stoke for the
>    	second time you actually hit the ball, plus a stroke penalty...?
    
	Your first interpretation was correct one for the intended stroke
	& one for the penalty.  (Unless you intended to hit it the
	second time then rule 14-5 kicks in.)

	As for your question about relief from casual water in a
	sand trap I am not sure of the decision (it's clearly described)
	but I think it is:

	1. You can't take relief closer to the hole,
	2. You probably would have to drop in another trap, near the
	   green if possible, not closer to the hole, if that is not
	   possible
	3. You would drop outside the trap, not closer to the hole,
	   (probably on a line with the original spot & the hole).

	Gene you really should pick up a copy of the Decisions of Golf
	if you have such questions.  It is pretty interesting reading.

	Larry

    Gene,
    
    Rule 25. Abnormal Ground Conditions and Wrong Putting Green
    
    Rule 25-1. Casual Water, Ground Under Repair and Certain Damage
    to the Course
    
    	b. Relief
    
    	If the player elects to take relief, he shall proceed as follows:
    
    		(ii) IN A HAZARD: If the ball lies in or touches a HAZARD,
    the player shall lift and drop the ball either:
    
    		(a) Without penalty, in the hazard, as near as possible
    to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on ground
    which affords maximum available relief from the condition;
    					or
    		(b) UNDER PENALTY OF ONE STROKE, outside the hazard,
    keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and
    the spot where the ball is dropped.
    
    
    					Mike

    
    Mike,
    
    I got a rules book at lunch and read the rules you entered. My
    question is, what if you can't drop in the trap without being
    in the water... Is it a stroke...? I "assume" that it is, but
    don't know that I agree that it should be...
    
    Gene

    Gene,
    
    	I know I don't agree with a lot of the rules, especially when
    losing a ball in the middle of the fairway!
    
    But, according to Decisions of the Rules of Golf 1988,
    
    25-1b/5  Explanation of "Maximum Available Relief" from Casual Water in
    Bunker 
    
    Q. In a bunker completely covered by casual water, is the place
    providing "maximum available relief" the spot which will provide the
    most relief for both lie and stance or just lie?
    
    A. The term applies to both lie and stance.  The spot providing
    "maximum available relief" might be such that the ball will be in
    shallower water than the player's feet after he takes his stance,
    or vice versa.
    
    
    There's more under this rule that I will post here tomorrow.
    
    
    						Mike

    Try this on for size.
    
    In a 36 hole tournament in rain both days. It brings back painfull
    memories.
    
    The sand trap to the left of the green on the 12th hole would not
    drain from the heavy downpour.
    On the Saturday, I landed in this sandtrap full of water. The only
    place in the trap that was semi-dry was nearer to the green. A member
    of the foursome pulls out the trusty rule book and announces that
    I have to take a one stroke penalty and drop behind the sand trap.
    It turns out that he is absolutely correct.
    On the Sunday, I landed in the same damn sandtrap which was now
    completely full of water. This time, I could not find the ball in
    the murky water and was forced to take a two stroke lost ball penalty
    and play from the point of entry. 
    Golf..... a nice walk...... ruined
    
    Mark
    
    
    

    re. .80
    How many strokes is it if you don,t go in the trap in the first
    place!!!
    
    THE MAD HACKER

    	I don't agree with taking a one-stroke penalty either, for landing
    in a trap filled with casual water, if you cannot find releif, in
    the hazard, but thems the rules.  You do have a choice.  you can
    play the ball out of the casual water, if you think you have a chance
    to avoid losing that stroke.  Unfortunately, we all have to play
    by the rules, and until it is changed, just do your best to avoid
    hitting into such positions, not that anyone tries to put there
    ball into such a position.
    
    Beak

    To continue Gene's discussion...
    
    From "Decisions..."
    
    25-1b/8 Player's Options When Bunker Completely Covered by Casual
    Water
    
    Q. If a player's ball lies in a bunker completely covered by casual
    water, what are his options?
    
    A. The player may play the ball as it lies or:
    
    	(1) drop the ball in the bunker without penalty at the nearest
    place, not nearer the hole, where the depth of the water is least
    - first option of Rule 25-1b(ii); or
    
    	(2) drop the ball behind the bunker under penalty of one stroke
    - second option of Rule 25-1b(ii).
    
    
    By the way, during the Open yesterday, Greg Norman was allowed by
    a rules official to rake a footprint in a bunker (he was not in
    the bunker and he did not make the footprint) prior to hitting over
    the bunker.  Frank Hannigan said that the ruling was incorrect but
    that Greg was not in jeopardy because he asked for and received
    a ruling from a rules official.
    
    
    						Mike

    
        Don't they have workers raking the traps between groups at the
      Open?   Could have sworn I've seen this happen.
    
    -rick

    Mark,
    
    	You got hosed in that tournament on the second day.
    
    According to "Decisions..."
    
    25-1/1 Ball in Casual Water Difficult to Retrieve
    
    Q. There is reasonable evidence that a player's ball came to rest
    in a large puddle of casual water.  A ball is visible in the casual
    water, but the player cannot retrieve it or identify it as her ball
    without unreasonable effort.
    
    The player abandons the ball and proceeds under Rule 25-1c, which
    provides relief for a ball lost in casual water.  Was the player
    justified in doing so? 
    
    A. Yes.  A player is not obliged to use unreasonable effort to retrieve
    a ball in casual water, for identification purposes. 
    
    However, if it would not take unreasonable effort to retrieve
    a ball in casual water, the player must retrieve it.  If it turns
    out to be the player's ball and she elects to take relief, she must
    proceed under Rule 25-1b(i); otherwise, she must proceed under Rule
    25-1c(i).
                                                        
    See my previous note under where I posted the options.  They are
    the same.                          
    
    If everyone saw you land in the trap, your ball was not a lost ball
    because there was reasonable evidence that the ball was indeed in
    the trap.
    
    
    						Mike

    What happens if you retrieve the ball from said bunker with a club?
    Would you be penalized for grounding your club in the hazard? 1/2 :-)
    
    I'm playing a match today (I think) and this discussion could prove
    most useful.
    
    -Alan- (who doesn't have a rule book handy)

    
    Here is another question... ;-)...
    
    Lets say you are on the tee, you take a stroke at the ball and
    it only goes a couple of yards off the tee... Now si there any
    thing in golf that would allow you to take a one stroke penalty
    and retee the ball....?
    
    I say that the ball is in play and must be played as it lies...
    If in fact you deem it unplayable then you can drop within
    two club lengths (no closer to the hole) with a one stroke
    penalty, BUT CAN IN NO WAY RETEE IT... 
    
    What say yee...?
    
    Thanks
    Gene (who_finds_these_rules_discussions_VERY_beneficial)

       re .87:
       
       Sure you can re-tee it.
       
       When you declare an unplayable lie, you can choose any one
       of these three options (with 1-stroke penalty):
       
       1. Go back to where you originally hit the ball and re-hit
       from that spot.  ("If the original stroke was played from the
       teeing ground, a ball may be teed anywhere within the teeing
       ground.")
       
       2. Drop a ball within 2 clubs lengths, but not nearer the hole.
       
       3. Drop a ball anywhere on a line formed by the hole and the
       point where the ball lies, but not nearer the hole.
       
       --Mr Topaz
       
       

    
    	RE: .88
    
    	Don,
    
    	I just got done talkling this over with some other people and
    	we decided jsut as you did and for the reason that you stated
    	that it can be reteed....!!!!!!! 
    
    	Thanks
    	Gene (who_is_learning_a_lot_about_the_rules_these_days)

>    Lets say you are on the tee, you take a stroke at the ball and
>    it only goes a couple of yards off the tee... Now si there any
>    thing in golf that would allow you to take a one stroke penalty
>    and retee the ball....?

     Of course if you only can hit the ball a couple of yards when the
     ball is sitting up pretty on a tee maybe you should consider switching
     to another club rather than trying the same shot again hitting
     three ;-) !

     We should commend Mr. Topaz for his good legal work.  Though this
     is strictly legal it doesn't seem like justice is served in the
     case where the ball is sitting in the fairway very playable.  However
     the rule says only the player has to decide whether the ball is
     playable.

     Keep these rules questions coming.  It helps me stay sharp.

     Larry

    
    	Here is one along the same lines and I have the answer to this
    	one...
    
    	You take your swing at the ball and wiff (that is one stroke)
    	now you are adressing the ball and it falls off the tee... 
    	Is that a stroke...?
    
    	
    
    
    	Yes, it is a stoke... Since once you take a stroke at the ball
    	(make a swing with the intention of hitting the ball) the ball
    	is then in play and by moving it when addressing the ball it
    	is a stroke penalty...
    
    	Note: if the ball is knocked off the tee when addressing it
    	and prior to making a stroke at it, it may be reteed and without
    	penalty...

    
    	I have one more...
    
    	I know that if you hit your own equipment or your caddy with
    	your ball there are penalties incurred... Now what if your
    	equipment falls on your ball....? I had this happen to me a
    	couple of weeks ago. I have one of the Sun Mountain Eclipse
    	bags, the wind blew it over and it hit my ball, are the same
    	penalties involved as if you hit the equipment with the ball...?
    	I haven't been able to find this in the rules book...
    
    	Thanks again
    	Gene

    Re .91
    Remember that the definition of address includes grounding the club
    (except in a hazard). If you do not ground your club after you wiff
    and the ball falls off the tee (providing you do not cause it to
    fall off) there is no penalty, because you are "not at address".
    Now, assuming that the wind (or an earthquake) caused it to fall
    off the tee, that is considered to be an outside agency and the
    ball ***shall*** be replaced! If you do not replace it on the tee,
    add two penalty strokes.
    
    What a great game!!!
    
    Rich

    I was playing in a member-guest at a very wet course a couple weekends
    ago, they play winter rules (perfered lies in your own fairway). I hit
    a ball into the rough and the nearest point of relief was in the
    fairway, I was droping and playing it as it lies, but i was wondering
    if I could take a perfered lie since I was in my own fairway?

    
    RE: .94
    
    Who is to say since preferred lies are not in the rules of golf...!

    Here's one more..
    
    While standing over your putt, the putter accidently touchs the
    ball before making your putt...
    
    Does that touch count as a stoke ??
    
    It could be since you may have grounded the club and were preparing
    to putt.
    
    What say ?
    
    Jim
    

    
>    While standing over your putt, the putter accidently touchs the
>    ball before making your putt...
    
>    Does that touch count as a stoke ??
    
        Only if the ball moves from it's original spot.  Scott Simpson
     almost had this happen to him yesterday. But since noone saw his
     ball move, they didn't assess the penalty.    

    -rick    

    RE:.96
    
    Jim,
    
    	Since you did not make a stroke, IF the ball did not move and/or
    returned to its original position, it is not a stroke.  If however it
    did move it is a stroke.
    
    
    						KO

    
    re: Couple back.
    
    I assume that you were in casual water while in the rough? If not,
    the 'preferred' lie does *not* usually apply, gotta play it where
    it lies... period. If you were in causal water, which is quite possible
    in New England this year, you should *drop* it in the *rough*, no
    closer to hole, and cannot take any obstructions out of play.
    
    Smitty

>    it lies... period. If you were in causal water, which is quite possible
>    in New England this year, you should *drop* it in the *rough*, no
>    closer to hole, and cannot take any obstructions out of play.
    
        How about some of those drops the pros were getting?  "The rough
      too wet Tom?  Here, move your ball out to the middle of the fairway
      where you can hit a nice easy wedge to the green."    

    -rick_who_has_had_to_putt_through_casual_water_on_greens_in_a_local_
     tournament_where_the_hole_was_located_in_the_middle_of_the_pond_and
     they_refused_to_stop_play

    
    RE: .99
    
    If you are in casual water in the rough, you take a drop at the
    "nearest" point of releif... it does NOT have to stay in the rough
    (as Rick pointed out in the last reply Kite took a drop from casual
     water in the rough and he got to drop in the fairway)

    this may sound like a stupid question but it is a question I have
    never been able to satisfactorily answer:
    
    What is the definition of the ball "moving"
    
    that is some motion, rocking... is the "movement???"
    
    As I like to ground my club even in the rough I need some clarification
    of what will cause a stroke in that situation.
    
    bill

    
>    What is the definition of the ball "moving"

	According to the definition in Rule 18:

	A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and
	come to rest in any other place.

	Larry

    Any gurus on matchplay out there ?
    
    Maybe this is a naive question but I would like help. It's all about
    where one gets strokes in a matchplay competetition. Do you each
    take strokes at the appropriate SI according to your own handicap
    or does the longer handicap player take strokes at the 'n' lowest
    SI holes ?
    
    If you work through an example you will see that the strokes are
    gained on different holes depending how you apply the stroke
    difference.
    
    As you can guess, there's a couple of pints riding on the answer
    so I would appreciate any help before the weekend. Thanks in
    anticipation.
    
    Michael. (28 handicap !)
     

    In a matchplay, the higher handicapped player gets strokes on the
    most difficult holes, the number of which is the difference between
    the 2 golfers.
    
    Beak

    
    
      We are currently playing a club knockout tournament.  And they
    work it as such:  we play 85 percent of handicap in tournaments,
    take the 85 percent of your handicap and subtract 85 percent of
    the lowest handicap from yours, now the strokes that you get fall
    on the stroke holes according to the card.  NOTE: in some cases
    it makes a difference in the number of strokes if you subtract
    from gross handicaps then take the 85 percent, e.g.  10 is the
    low and 18 is the high. 10 from 18 is 8, 85 percent of 8 is 7.
    85 percent of 10 is 9, 85 percent of 18 is 15, 9 from 15 is 6.

    
    I have a question about something that occured to me last night in a 
    league match.
    
    I hooked a drive near the out of bounds off the tee, I hit a
    provisional.  When the first ball was found, it was leaning on  the
    stake that marks out of bounds, but the ball was on the in bounds side
    of the stake.  The problem being the stake had fallen out of its hole
    and was laying on the ground.  The ball was such that if the stake had
    been standing in its proper place it would have been out of bounds, but
    since the stake had fallen, according to the stake the ball was in
    bounds.  I asked my opponent what he thought and he left it up to me.
    I figured that the stake marks out of bounds, whether or not it was in
    its proper place or not, it still marks the bounds.  I called it in
    bounds and played it.  
    
    Was the ball in bounds??
    The result won't effect the hole as we lost it anyway.  Just curious.
    
    --Bob

       It depends.  If there were other OB stakes defining the out of bounds
     area, then you can draw an imaginary line between the other stakes. If
     your ball was clearly on the OB side of that line, then you were in 
     fact OB as the diagram below illustrates.  However, if it was the only
     stake around then I suppose you were technically inbounds.  Did you put
     the stake back in it's hole?  8^)

-rick

               1 (stake 1)
               .
        I      .
        N      .
        B      .     o 2 (stake 2 laying on ground)
        O      .    ball 
        U      .
        N      .
        D      .
        S      .
               3 (stake 3)
    

    
    I was unable to find an actual ruling on this, but my thoughts would
    be that your ball was out of bounds. Since you could clearly tell
    where the stake had been by the fact that you said you could see
    the hole that it was in. If the stake was on the ground and you
    could not determine where it had been standing, then I would agree
    with you...
    
    Just my thoughts
    Gene

      >    Now, assuming that the wind (or an earthquake) caused it to fall
      >    off the tee, that is considered to be an outside agency and the
      >    ball ***shall*** be replaced! 
    
    Sorry to come into this discussion a bit late but I've only just
    found this GREAT notes file and I'm still catching up on past
    discusions. (Guess I reaaly should register soon).
    
    I'm a bit surprised the above extract got away without comment.
    I don't actually have a copy of the rules here at my desk with me
    but I'm sure you will find that wind is NOT an outside agency and
    relief cannot be claimed. If the ball moves at address (by the wind
    or not) then you incur a penalty.
    
    I know it doesn't seem fair but that is the rule. (At least the
    rule according to R & A !).
    
    M.
    
    
                          

    RE: the out of bounds discussion.
    
    Since you 'play the course as you find it' you should consider the
    "new" position of the stake is now OB and not where you thought it 
    might have been.   However since the entire stake is out of bounds,
    and the ball was resting against the stake, your ball is out of bounds.
    
    
    
    						KO

    re: .108
    
    Since I happen to have the "Decisions on the Rules of Golf" handy,
    I'll throw in an unopened can of worms with this little gem.  This
    is the most applicable Decision I could find.
    
    Reprinted without permission from "Decisions on the Rules of Golf
    - 1988"
    
    
    33-2a/19 "Boundary Altered by Unauthorized Removal of Boundary Stake"
    
    In stroke play, a boundary line has been altered through unauthorized
    removal of a boundary stake, and therefore there is an area (Area X)
    which is in bounds if the removed stake is disregarded and out of
    bounds if the removed stake is replaced.
    
    Q1. A's ball comes to rest in Area X.  A is aware that the boundary
    has been altered.  He asks the Committee for a ruling.  What is
    the ruling?
    
    A1. The Committee should replace the removed stake, i.e., restore
    the original boundary line and require A to proceed under Rule 27-1,
    unless the Committee knows that one or more preceding competitors
    had, in ignorance of the fact that a stake has been removed, played
    from Area X.  In that case, the Committee should allow the altered
    boundary line to stand for the remainder of the competition, and
    A would play his ball as it lay.
    
    Q2.  What would be the ruling if the Committee determined that one or
    more of the competitors had, in ignorance of the fact that a stake was
    missing, played from Area X and one or more other competitors had
    treated Area X as out of bounds and proceeded under Rule 27-1?
    
    A2.  If the inconsistent treatment of Area X could significanlty
    affect the result of the competition, the round should be cancelled
    and replayed.  Otherwise the round should stand. 

    
    					Mike

    Playing in a match play turny this past weekend, I had this following
    situation happen in my group:
    
    The ball lies next to a lateral water hasard, the ball is not in the
    hasard, but a hasard stake may interfer with the intended swing or ball
    flight, can the stake be removed? I know an out of bounce stake cannot
    be removed but what about stakes defining hasards? - I told my opponent
    to play 2 balls, one with the stake out and one with the stake in, he
    didn't, he just played one ball with the stake out.
    
    During the same match, one opponent hits a ball that plugs in the
    rough, he asks if he can remove it, we say yes and to just drop the
    ball, he places the ball.  Next hole, the other opponent hits on a cart
    path, again the ball is placed instead of dropped.  Then also through
    out the same match, our opponents are stepping behind their balls in
    the rough.
    
    What does one do against people like this?  Any opions out there
    
    peter 
    
    btw - we lost the match 

    	Pretty simple, I think.  First of all, carry a USGA rules book
    with you at all times.  Secondly, when in a tournament that calls
    for USGA rules, simply remind your opponent(s) of the specific rule
    at hand, and with a witness present, when rules are broken, tell
    your opponent you are going to protest the breech of rules.  That's
    all you can do.  After that, it's up to those running the Tournament.
    Whatever happens, feel good about it, not bad.  You are not the
    one(s) who broke the rules.  
    
    Beak

    I'm curious about whether or not the stake could be legally removed
    from the hazard. Did you check when you went back in to the clubhouse?
    
    When my opponent starts doing this and that that aren't quite legal,
    I drop lots of reminders that what he/she is doing is illegal. Even
    if he/she continues, the reminders can't be very good for his/her game,
    and eventually, he/she might get sick of hearing from me and start to 
    do things the right way. 
    
    BTW: I didn't think it was legal to lift a plugged ball from the rough.
    My understanding is that you either have to take a wack at it and hope
    that you get under it enough to hit it out, or you have the option of
    calling it unplayable, take the penalty stroke and play out your
    options for unplayable lies.
    
    Patti

    	According to rule 24, an obstruction is anything artificial
    except, A. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences,
    stakes and railings, and construction declared by the commitee to
    be an integral part of the course,  and any part of an immovable
    artificial object which is out of bounds.  
    	The hazard marker falls under construction declared by the commitee
    to be an integral part of the course, because it is not out of bounds
    and does not mark an out of bounds line.  Therefor it could be either.
    	As far as unplugging an embedded ball, rule 25.2 says "A ball
    embedded in it's own pitch-mark in any closely mown area through
    the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty. as
    near as possible to the spot where it lay, but not nearer the hole.
    "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths
    throgh the rough, cut to fairway height or less."  So, as long as
    it was distinguishable enough to be in the rough, and not the fairway,
    by the rules of the USGA, it should not be moved and played as is.
    Of course, if there was casual water of specific course or tournament
    rules stating otherwise, they must be followed.  In any event, this
    is one rule, that I would never force an opponent to follow, but
    if you wanted to, you certainly are in the right to do so.  My opinion,
    is as long as the ball is not in a hazard such as a trap or a water
    hazard or something to that effect, I will let my opponent unplug
    the ball and take a drop, but certainly not place the ball in the
    rough.
    
    Beak

    I don't know what would be worse, turning those cheeters in or the
    feeling I have right now of losing to cheeters. I was steaming mad
    after the 2 non-drops, a person just can't play his game and also watch
    someone like a hawk. But, no one wants to turn someone in either, you
    don't make many friends that way.
    
    peter

    I believe the problem with a plugged ball in the rough is one of
    identification. If you can identify the ball as yours, then you're
    stuck - you have to hack it out or take an unplayable. Otherwise
    you must carefully remove the ball, identify it, and place it back
    in its original position (not take a drop). You identify the ball
    after the shot only if you lie in a hazard.
    
    Kind of severe, but golf is supposed to have elements of luck and
    playing the ball as it lies.
    
    Naturally in a less serious tournament or match a drop in the rough
    may be acceptable.
    
    Eric

    re: 118
    
    I wouldn't have thought that you'd want to be friends with these
    'people' ??!!
    
    Colin

    re -1
    
    geeze... Break up a friendship over a game... I wouldn't do that,
    I value a friendship...
    
    I can, however, discuss any situation or difference in opinion with
    my friends, and they with me. I would simply discuss it.
    
    	Smitty

    	When playing in a tournament, you're not always playing with
    friends.  And sure, we all want to be friendly with whoever we end
    up playing with, but people are different and that's not always
    possible.  
    	Another point to be made, is that when you see someone cheating
    in a tournament, and you don't do something about it, they are not
    just getting away with cheating on you, but everybody in the tournament
    also.  You should at the very least, point out the infraction to
    them.  They actually may not really know what the rules are and
    have learned it the way they are doing it, from someone else who
    didn't know the rules.  There are probably some golfers out there,
    who know all the rules, and all of the golfers know some of the
    rules, but not all golfers know all the rules!!!  Help them out,
    by telling them what they did wrong, but in constructive manner.
    Even the pros have to get rulings from tournament officials before
    making a judgement on some situations.
    
    Beak

    Concerning the stakes...
    
    I don't have a rulebook handy, but I almost positive there is a
    specific rule stating you can remove hazard stakes, but not OB stakes.
    
    Can anyone help me on this?
    
    Dan

    I agree with beak in .122.  I would first assume that the player
    involved in the infraction simply didn't know the rule.  If you
    take the time to point out what your interpretation is, then if
    you disagree suggest he play two balls, you are practically telling
    him that you will be asking for a ruling after your round is over.
     If he then gets penalized, even an unreasonable person will probably
    admit it was his fault.
    
    bl

    Well I did tell the man to drop the ball, I explained to him that we
    would be playing by the rules so that there is no questions. He said
    (btw he was a local member at the club where we played) that they
    usually place off of cart paths, I was also on the cart path and I
    droped the ball.
    
    If I ever run into that situation again, I will make sure that the
    rules are lived up to. I wouldn't even let my mother get away with
    something like that! 

    
    This question came up a few weeks ago at the course. According to the
    rules a club can not be adjustable. Does lead tape on the head of a
    club, for additional weight, make the club adjustable and thus illegal?
    
    Thanks
    Gene

    
    Geno,
    
    Doesn't the lead tape change the weight, as in the swing weight?? I
    think the adjustable refers to those "Ronco" TV specials that go
    from a three iron all the way up to a wedge. Have club will travel.
    You'd be a killer in a "three club" with one of those.
    
    Joe

	Lead tape is OK.  The rule is intended to prohibit those
	RONCO "Dial a clubs" previously mentioned.

	It's a driver.
	It's a wedge.
	It's a steal for $14.95.
	But wait theres more...

    I think the rule about adjustable clubs state that the club face cannot
    be adjustable (the face cannot be movable):
    
    In appendix II rule 4-1d, clubface:
    
    "The clubhead shall be generally plain in shape.  All parts shall be
    rigid, structural in nature and functional."
    
    I guess I violate this rule from time to time because my clubs are not
    functional as often as I would like them to be :-).
    
    But "weight", there's more:
    
    The real clincher is rule 4-1 Form and Make of Clubs:
    
    a. General
    	"The club shall be composed of a shaft and a head.  All parts of
    the club shall be fixed so that the club is one unit.  The club shall
    not be designed to be adjustable except for weight..."
    
    As you can see, lead tape would be allowed because you can adjust a
    clubs weight.
    
    Mike

    But, one should note that if you put the lead tape on before the round
    you cannot remove it during the round.  Also you can not put it on
    during the round as this was ruled as modifying the club during a
    designated round, which is illegal.
    
    Bill

    What if the tape should come off (break free) during the round?
    Or if part of it comes free where by you feel it will fly off posing
    a safety hazzard if used? Can you remove it then, to make the club
    playable?
    
    
    Tom

RE: .131

It seems to me that you could call the club damaged.  In that case you can repair 
it OR play with it in the damaged state (without the tape) for the remainder of the
stipulated round.



							KO

I am fairly certaintaht you can't play with it in it's damaged state.  I 
remember a couple players (Davis Love III & ?) who were disqualified for
hitting their putter on the ground with enough force to bend it and still
playing with it.

Larry

Good point Larry.  I cheated though I looked it up.
Rule 4.1 paragraph g, Damage: states that you may play with
a damaged club or repair it IF the "damage [was] sustained
in the normal course of play."  Rule 4.2 (pertaining to 
damage making the club non conforming) also allows reapir or
playing the rest of the round with the club.  Hitting the
putter on the ground and bending it would not be considered
the "normal" course of play.  To me that's altering a club
making it non conforming thereby requiring disqualification.



					KO

You've got me Kevin.  I knew that I should have looked at the rules for the
precise definition.  But you know how it is, just a quick note as before you
rush home for dinner.

Then again I know some players that smashing their putter into the ground is
part of the normal course of play! ;-), but not us we're better putters than
that.

Larry

Larry,

>>  but not us we're better putters than

Right you are, I only 3 jacked 4 greens because they weren't
cut properly. :-)


					KO

    
    During one of the tourneys this year I saw one of the caddies tend the
    pin for the player that was hitting from off the green, I don't remember
    what tourney or who the player was (he actually removed the pin after
    the ball was heading for the hole). My question is did they change this
    rule this year? It used to be that the pin had to either stay in or be
    removed before the ball was struck, when hitting from off the green. I
    have my new rules book at home, but I keep forgetting to look this up.
    Can anybody shed some light on this matter...?
    
    Thanks
    Gene

    I don't know about ALL shots from off the green, but I do know that
    when shooting to an elevated green, and you can not see the top of the
    flagstick form where you are, that you can have someone raise the flag
    to allow you to see it.  There was a short blurb on this in GOLF DIGEST
    last month, where Trevino did exactly that during tournament play.  If
    I recall correctly, however, it did say that the stick had to be
    replaced and that the usual penalties apply if you hit the stick or
    your caddie (in Trevino's case).  I wasn't clear on the stick bit,
    since I don't know of any penalty for hitting the stick on an approach
    shot.  I did not get the impression that this was a new rule.  There
    are, however, two new rules for 1990, but I do not recall them right
    now.  If I think about it, I'll look them up tonight.
    
    Hal

    
    Hal,
    
    I saw the blurp you were talking about (I think it was Gary Player).
    But, the instance I was referring to was a simple chip from right
    next to the green (only a few yards off)...
    
    Gene

    
    Gene,
    
    I 'll be interested to see what you find. Didn't we have this come up
    one time while we're playing? I was always under the impression, as
    were you, that this was forbidden. I knew about raising the flag if it
    was a blind shot, but this chipping off the green with the flag
    tended........
    
    
    Joe

    After scouring the 1990 Rules of Golf and re-reading the Golf
    Digest article about Gary Player (you were correct, Gene), I could not
    find any rule that actually forbids tending the flag for those chip
    shots.  The exact wording of Rule 17.1 is: "Before and during the
    stroke, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up
    to indicate the position of the hole.  This may be done only on the
    authority of the player before he plays his stroke".  In reading
    article on Player, it said that he "wisely" had his caddie replace the
    flagstick and move out of the way, so as to avoid the possibilty of the
    two stroke penaly for hitting either the stick or the attendee while
    the flag is being tended.
    
    As far as tending the flag on a par three, I suppose it COULD be done
    as long as it did not unduly delay play, which is another penalty.
    
    I know that I have always been told and enforced the "rule" that you
    could either take it out or leave it in, but not have it tended if you
    were off the green.  I just cannot find anything in the Rule Book, so
    it must be one of those "unwritten" rules.
    
    I doubt that I will use this to change the way I play, however, but
    it's nice to know I could if I wanted to.
    
    As far as new rules I mentioned earlier, I was actually thinking about
    an article I had read in Golf Journal about some changes in the 1990
    Decisions on the Rules of Golf, and not the Rules themselves.  There
    were 18 new decisions handed down for 1990.
    
    Hit 'em straight!
    
    Hal                             

My understanding of this rule is that you can have the flag tended for 
a chip shot, but if you do, the flag MUST be removed before the ball 
reaches the hole. In other words, any decision you make about using 
the flag must be made BEFORE the shot, not after. If you had the 
choice of keeping the flag in or removing it WHILE the ball was in 
motion, it would give you an unfair advantage (if you skulled the chip 
at the hole, you'd definitely want the flag left in to stop it; if you 
hit a good chip, you'd want it removed to avoid the chance that it 
would deflect the ball from the hole). Leaving the choice until after 
the ball was struck would also introduce a lot of complication to the 
rule (what if your opponent is tending and fails to remove the flag 
after you shout "pull it! Pull it!"?  What if he (or she) pulls the 
flag when you wanted it left?)

    .142 hit it exactly.  I didn't find the rule, but I do know that
    you decide before the shot, whether the flag will stay in until
    your ball comes to rest, or whether the flag will come out, before
    the ball reaches the hole.  You do have the option of having the
    flag tended, but the flag must be removed, after the ball is struck
    and before the ball reaches the hole.
    
    Beak

    I beg to differ, folks, but that is not what the Rule SAYS, that is how
    you are interpreting it.
    
    If you ask for the flag to be tended on a chip shot and leave the flag
    in the hole and your ball then hits the flagstick, you will be
    penalized two strokes under Rule 17.3 which states: "The player's ball
    shall not strike:
    
    		a.  The flagstick when attended, etc.
    
    		b.  The player's caddie, his partner or his partner's
   		    caddie when attending the flagstick, or another person
    		    attending the flagstick, etc.
    
    		c.  The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the ball
   		    has been played from the putting green.
    
    So, if you ask for the flag to be attended, and you scull the ball, the
    attendee can leave the stick in, but if you hit it you incur a two
    stroke penalty.  Even if he takes it out, if you hit it you incur a two
    stroke penalty, or if your ball hits whomever is attending the flag
    it's a two stroke penalty.
    
    The Rules do not define the manner in which the flag is to be attended.
    
    The way I hit some of my chip shots, the attendee would be taking their
    life in their hands!! :-)
    
    Hit 'em straight.
    
    Hal

    <<< Note 41.144 by FINALY::SCHNEIHC "Hal Schneider-Something's Fishy" >>>
                        -< Hit Flag=Two Stroke Penalty >-

>    I beg to differ, folks, but that is not what the Rule SAYS, that is how
>    you are interpreting it.
    
>    If you ask for the flag to be tended on a chip shot and leave the flag
>    in the hole and your ball then hits the flagstick, you will be
>    penalized two strokes under Rule 17.3 which states: "The player's ball
>    shall not strike:

Um...isn't that what we said? You're not contradicting what we said. 
You did, however add some details that make the rule clearer: you can 
leave the stick in and stand there like a statue, just don't get hit 
by the ball.

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     24-Jan-1990 02:44pm EST
                                        From:     RICHARD OCONNOR @VRO

It is my understanding that the flagstick can be attended at anytime during the
play of the hole. If the ball strikes the flagstick when it is attended, a two
stroke penalty should be assessed to the player who struck the ball.

The key here is IF IT IS ATTENDED and the ball strikes the flagstick, the 
penalty is assessed. The flagstick MUST BE ATTENDED OR OUT when putting.

Now, what is "attended"? It is obvious when the player asked someone to tend 
the flagstick. Somewhere in the back of my mind there lurks a ruling that if 
anyone is within REACH of the flagstick it CAN BE determined that it is 
attended.

If the flag is attended or moved after the stroke is played, the penalty is 
assessed on the player making the stroke (except in stroke play).

I try to ensure that when I am pitching or chipping from off the green that I
ask people to "stand away", "leave the flag in" or "please tend the flag". 
If I am playing with someone that I think may not know the rules, I will be 
sure to ask them to remove the flagstick as soon as the ball is struck, that 
is, in case the person has difficulty in removing it.

If the flagstick is lying on or off the green where someone left it and one's 
ball strikes it while making a putt there is a two stroke penalty on the player 
who made the putt.

In stroke play if an opponent or his caddy attends the flagstick without 
authorization from the player making the stroke (except while putting) the two 
stroke penalty is on the person who attended the flagstick without 
authorization.        

Hope this clears thing up.

    
    A friend of mine has been invited to play in a non-sanctioned
    torunament this spring, that pays some very large sums of
    money for different things.
    
    1) 5,000 for a hole in one
    2) 1,000 for nearest pin
    3)   500 for longest drive
    4) 2,000 for first place
    
    What effect if any, would there be on him as far as entering other
    sanctioned tournaments?
    
    Shane
    

    
    	Should he accept any of those sums he would lose his amatuer status
    	for X amount of time (I forget how long). I think amatuers can only
    	accept between $400 and $500 for a tourney (between prizes and
    	cash). 
    
    	Does anybody know the specifics...?
    
    	Gene

    I think that the amount allowed for any one tournament,for an amatuer,
    is $500.00. If he accepts more than that, he loses his amatuer status.
    Then he must apply to the USGA to regain the amatuer status. I think
    that the waiting period that the USGA makes one wait is two years in
    this instance.
    PS They just upped the amount from $350.00 to $500.00 recently.
    Rich

         Also, the R & A has set a $350 limit for tournaments
    of 36 holes or less.
    
    Mad Hacker

    I thought only the tournament itself counted towards this rule.
    I did not know that special prizes like closest to the pin or holes
    in one counted.  It doesn't take a pro to do either one of those.
    
    Stu

                      <<< Note 41.149 by IAMOK::OCONNOR >>>
                         -< If the USGA Finds Out.... >-

>    I think that the amount allowed for any one tournament,for an amatuer,
>    is $500.00. If he accepts more than that, he loses his amatuer status.
>    Then he must apply to the USGA to regain the amatuer status. I think
>    that the waiting period that the USGA makes one wait is two years in
>    this instance.


I'm a member of a tournament committee. Another member on the committee
looked into buying insurance for a hole-in-one. The name of the company
escapes me at the moment, but for a specified hole and a certain number
of players, for a specified tournament, we would pay under $300 and 
anyone achieving a hole-in-one during that tournament would win $5,000 
plus the opportunity to compete with similar winners for $100,000. 
Furthermore, they pay for EACH person who achieves a hole-in-one on 
the identified hole. (Wish I had the details with me...)

One of the stipulations is that all participants must be amateurs. Are
they not telling us that anyone who wins this prize loses his/her amateur
status? That doesn't seem to make sense considering the restriction about
being an amateur to compete for the $5,000 prize. I knew there had to be
a catch!

Patti

    Patti, you can call the Mass. Golf Assoc. at 617-891-4300 for a
    clarification. They are very helpful with clarifications in these
    instances.
    Rich

                      <<< Note 41.153 by IAMOK::OCONNOR >>>
                                    -< MGA >-

>    Patti, you can call the Mass. Golf Assoc. at 617-891-4300 for a
>    clarification. They are very helpful with clarifications in these
>    instances.
>    Rich

Thanks, Rich. Any idea if the same rules would apply in NH? If not, does
anyone know if there is a NH Golf Assoc?

Thanks.
Patti

BTW: The prize for a hole-in-one is $10,000 not $5,000. I can provide
     more details, or I can photocopy the info I have and mail it to 
     anyone interested. 

    
    Patti,
    That rules applies across the U. S.
    The MGA would be able to give you a name and number for the NH Assoc, 
    if there is one.
    Rich

                      <<< Note 41.155 by IAMOK::OCONNOR >>>
                               -< All the U.S. >-

    
Thanks. A phone call to the Hole-in-One Association (the insurance
company) confirmed that anyone winning the $$ would indeed be subject
to losing his/her amateur status. The woman said that the only people
who this would really affect would be college-level players. 

I'm not so sure that I agree with her. There are a few golfers who
might compete in this tournament who also compete in various city
and state tournaments. Wouldn't they also be affected? And if a person
lost his/her amateur status, and your club happens to use USGA handicaps
for tournaments, then this person would also become ineligible to compete
at his/her local course, as USGA wouldn't give them a handicap. Or would
this person now be classified as a Pro? If so, would that person have to
play scratch? What if the poor guy/gal is a hacker who got lucky? It 
wouldn't be much fun to have to play scratch when he/she plays to a
higher handicap.

One question I have is how would the USGA find out about the $$ winnings? 
Would the club be obliged somehow to inform somebody about the big payoff?

We still haven't decided whether we will buy into the insurance yet.
I'm not sure we fully understand the ramifications of someone actually
winning. Any thoughts would certainly be appreciated. If it wasn't
for this notes file, this issue might have slipped right by us.

Patti

It's really very simple if you play for cash, you're a pro.  Pro's can't
compete in amateur events.  Pro's can have handicap's.  I remember reading that
Watson was something like a +3 in his prime.  He would have to give you your
handicap plus 3 strokes in a match!

One has to think very carefully before taking the money.  (However if it was
enough money, a hacker with no realistic expectations for an amateur career.
I'ld take it.  Becoming a golf pro is not like loosing your virginity.  After
waiting a suitably long time (many years) you can petition the USGA for
reinstatement of your amateur status.)

Finally does anyone remember.  I think that on the PGA when amateurs compete
they have to declare that they are amateurs before the tournament starts &
thus are ineligible to change their minds.  Scott Verplank at the Western
Open comes to mind.)

Larry

    Patti,
    Go for it!!!
    Have your reinstatement letter to the USGA signed and stamped and drop
    it in the mail box on the way to the bank.
    We noters will allow you your full handicap and I am sure that your
    league and club will to. Some time I think the USGA should put
    their common sense hats on and do some things right. Once the
    news blows over that you have won the only thing that you will have to
    worry about is your long lost cousins trying to touch you for some of
    the cash.
    Good luck
    Rich

    
    I have a question on a 'shot' that a guy in my foursome used last
    weekend.
    
    His ball was directly in front of a tree, allowing him no backswing at
    all. He was off the fairway, to the side of the green. What he did, was
    take his club, a 5 iron I think, and put the head as close to the ball
    as possible, without touching it. (There was room for this). The head
    was probably an � from the ball, or closer. He then took a hockey-type
    wrist shot, and almost 'threw' the ball at the green with his club. The
    ball ended up close to the pin. 
    
    It didn't make a difference, so we laughed and I congratulated him on
    the shot, but told him I would have to question this had it made a
    difference. I contend that he carried the ball with his club, because
    he obviously could not have generated speed to hit the ball.
    
    This has got to be illegal.... right?
    
    	Smitty
    

    	The only thing I can think of that would be illegal, is that
    he obviously would have to had hit the ball more than once on the
    same swing.  He probably hit it morethan twice, for that matter.
    But only an official could probably make the decision.  That's a
    tough question.
    
    Beak

    	Readfing the 1988 Rules of Golf
    
    	14-1 Ball to Be Fairly Struck At
    
    		The Ball shall be fairly struck at with the head of the
    	club and must not be pushed,scraped or spooned.
    
    	Walta

    The way you have described the shot sounds as if it was pushed or
    shoved and not "struck". If this is true then it is a rule violation
    (1-2). With a quarter of an inch distance for the takaway, it is
    reasonable to assume that the ball could only be moved a very short 
    distance.
    Rich

    Walta is right on the rule. 14-2 not 1-2.

    To take this situation a little further.... what if he had played
    the shot so that the ball bounced against the tree and rebounded
    onto the green. If played this was with a backswing it would be
    ok? What if some bark flies off of the tree?
    
    
    Tom

No problem banking the ball off the tree is perfectly legal.  However being 
that close you do have to worry about getting hit by the ball!  With my luck
it would be the only time I would TRY to hit a tree and I'ld MISS.

Larry

    Larry,
    
    I can really associate with you... how come when the majority of
    a tree is fresh-air, do we all hit the thing??
    
    A friend of mine was playing last year and was close to a big oak.
    He hit a 4 iron. It hit the trunk, bounced back and hit him full
    in the face. He had a lovely shiner after that!!
    
    Is it time to take cover like our boys are currently doing in the
    West Indies?? I can't imagine playing with a hard hat on somehow..8^)
    
    Phil.

    Hope this guy that used the slapshot didn't have a really
    good round. It is obviously tainted now by this discovery
    of his illegal movement of the ball. In fact, now that the
    round is over and the score posted, I guess he will have
    to be disqualified, I don't know from what, but let's get
    this heinous offender before he strikes another mishit.
    
    Mad Hacker
    
    

    Did the person who deflected his ball add two if playing stroke, lose
    the hole if playing match? That's the rule!!!
    Great game.
    Rich

    Hi,
    
    	I posed an interesting question last night at the nineteenth.
    
    	Do you think there should be a rule that allows golfers to rake
    	and place a golf ball, that has rolled into a fairway bunker
    	coming to rest in a footprint?
    
    	The example being ;
    
    	Your playing in a match, you drive your tee-shot into a fairway
    	bunker... your opponent does the same thing. You are both around
    	280 yards from the green. You get to the trap and see your ball
    	sitting up nicely, but your opponents ball had rolled into a 
    	footprint.
    
    	You proceed to hit out of the sand cleanly, and are now 150 yards
    	from the green. Your opponent hits the best shot he possibly can
    	and is laying 240 yards from the green. You par, he bogies.
    
    
    	Is that fair?    I feel it isn't, and when playing will "request"
    	from my opponent/s that we allow a rake and place rule, prior to
    	starting play. If they say no, then I'll agree. If they agree,
    	the agreement being," should the situation arise,
    	you ask for your opponents opinion before you do anything."
    
    	The public courses are really bad at raking traps, the private
    courses are much better. 
    
    
    	Just my opinion....  What's yours?
    
    	thanks  Walta
    
    
    PS. I didn't have a bad experience myself... I was just curious if 
    	others felt the same about this.

    	I would more likely say rake and "DROP" as opposed to rake and
    place.  By placing the ball, you certainly have the advantage of
    getting the best possible lie you can, where after all, you did
    hit it into a hazard.  Let me ask you this, both you and your opponent
    hit your tee shot into the rough.  Your ball has a real good lie,
    yet his is deepinto a divot that wasn't replaced and has very little
    shot.  What do you do?  Should he be allowed to place his ball?
    I say no.  When you hit the ball into a hazard, you take your chances.
    Sometimes bad luck strikes and you get a poor lie, but if you didn't
    hit it into a bunker, or hazard, you would have nothing to worry
    about.
    
    Beak

    
    	You and your opponent hit great tee shots out there about 290
    	yards your opponent is sitting up nice and you happen to land
    	in a divot mark (you are playing the ball down ;-) ) Just because
    	somebody didn't replace their divot you have a bad lie...!
    	Should you get to fix it? NO, just the breaks of the game...
    
    	I agree with one point and that is that all players whether it
    	be on a public course or private need to remember to rake the
    	traps, but they don't...!!!! :-{ :-{ I think we have had bad lies
    	in traps because some jurk didn't rake when they were done...! :-{
    
    	
    	Still love the game any ways...
    	Gene

    Why not let your opponent improve his lie in the fairway, if there
    is a divot, tire track, etc.?  I play the ball wherever it came to 
    rest, unless there is a rule allowing relief.  You get into trouble
    by allowing "exceptions" to the rules of golf.  
    
    Big Mac

    
    	.170 - .171
    	
    	Beak, 
    	
    	We must have been replying at the same time... 

    When you agree to waive any of the rules of golf you are, in fact,
    violating rule 1-3, which means disqualification. Why can't the rules
    be observed? I am most interested in any answers.
    Rich

    
    	Rich,
    
    	I "KNEW" this would get your interest...! ;-)
    
    
    	Gene
    
    	

    
    Reply the last 3 ish
    
    Hi,
    
    	I expected you guys to react as you did, because you all play
    	golf a lot, and play by the rules... and you are all correct.
    
    	I play a lot of golf also, and watch a lot on TV. My feeling is
    	the Pro's play awesome courses as we know, with nothing short of
    	perfect conditions. Lots of money at stake, they watch out for
    	each others interest. I feel the rules about hazards were written
    	with the thought "everyone" will help out and rake traps, repair
    	divots etc. But they don't (at public courses especially) and
    	therefore create an unfairness where a fairness could exist...
    
    	What harm would it be? I don't feel like I'm allowing my opponent
        anything dishonest, when I let him rake and place... I'd rather
    	beat him, and not someone elses irresponsibility.
    
    	Do you ALWAYS play it down???? If your tee-shot rolls smack into
    	a tire ditch ... conveniently left by some pinhead who drove
    	across the fairway after a few brewski's, do you move it? Or break
    	a couple irons, trying to dig it out? Or take an unplayable?
    
    	I abide by the rules also (painfully I might add), because I don't
    	want a low score tainted with any controversy. But I would like
    	a change to the rule, that allows more fairness.
    
    	Walta

    Walta,
    
    I'll remind you of your feelings of fairness the next time my ball
    fried eggs into a footprint on #16 North at Stow!! :-) :-)
    
    Ted

    Walta,
    	In my DEC league, they allow preferred lies, if you are in the
    fairway, which I do take.  But not in the rough or any other hazard.
    I agree, it's a tough and unfortunate situation, when you are in
    the hands of others who sometimes are not very courteous and do
    not repair their devots or rake traps etc., but those are the breaks.
    Like I said in my first reply, I would be more willing to allow
    someone to rake and then take a drop, in the hazard, as opposed
    to being able to place, in the hazard.  There is a big difference.
    
    Beak

    
    One reason for waiving some rules is to increase the speed of play.
    
    I run a small league who's members are all fairly new golfers.  
    Because our scores are still so high, we take longer.  To speed
    things up, we voted in the following:
    
    1) You can improve your lie in your own fair way.
    2) Out of bounds and lost balls are played the same as balls hit into
       water hazards.  (Drop where it last crossed the boundry and add 1).
    
    I don't believe we're violating the sanctity(sp?) of the game.  The
    decision was made simply to increase the speed of the game which helps
    to remove the anxiety of having somone push you on the course.  Which
    helps the enjoyment level.
    
    I don't think anyone in our league is in danger of being on the tour 
    soon, so we're looking for fun, not greatness!!!!!!!
    
    Shane
    
    President Of the Thursday Afternoon All Hackers League
    

    Reply -1
    
    	Hi Ted !
    
    	Fried eggs in the sand , remain fried ...  It's only on the shots
    	that "role" into the trap that I'd let you fix.
    
    	After that GREAT shot you made out of the trap on 16 North at Stow
    	when you were deeply into a footprint, I'd think you night welcome
    	the predicament???? :)  I've never seen anyone swing that hard
    	, pound that much sand, and get such a soft result. I'd check that
    	SW to see if it's bent. ;)
    
    	Walta

    Walta,
    
    How would you feel if you happen to hold the course record for a
    course, and someone turned in a better score, and had made the same
    judgment call or even similar to the one you described, and you were
    not there to judge.
    
    Freebie,

    Reply .182
    
    	Hmmmmm, How would I feel if someone else broke my course record,
    but used the "proposed" sand trap rule? I would probably recall my
    round, and if I was burned because of a footprint in a trap, which
    if altered would have yielded an even better score... I'd make a
    point of mentioning it... I'd want to know if he used the new rule
    	during his round (just out of curiosity). I would respect the
    	new record. But that situation has occurred in all sports, 
    when records of the past are compared to records of the present. What
    if Bobby Jones used Taylor Metal woods, and perimeter weighted high
    tech irons, with a Orville Moody putter and Titliest 100 compression
    balata "spalata" balls  ;) !!!
    
    	Walta

    Re: 181
    
    Walta,
    
    Thanks my friend. I appreciate the nice comments.
    
    I have to say though, that if in a trap whether roll or on the fly,
    the ball should be played as is. The only exception is, as noted
    in the rules, casual water. 
    
    Nobody ever said this game was fair.
    
    By the way, the SW is fine, no bend i nit ay all. The swing is another
    subject all together though!! ;-)
    
    Ted

	What if you happen to have a trusty Boy Scout Field Guide and are
	able to determine a footprint to be that from a Burrowing animal.
	Isn't a footprint a depression, and a depression a hole.  Then 
	under rule 25-1 it looks as though you can take a drop in the
	Hazard 8^)

	Freebie,    I hate physical inventories.

    At our club, during spring tourneys, we don't play the ball down.
    As of May 1st we start playing 'em as they lie.  Pre-May we even 
    roll them in the traps.  Generally the traps are wet and/or hard and
    short of sand early in the year.  I like the spring rule but would
    never want to change the rules for the full season.  Footprints or
    fried eggs... it's all the same... you still have to hit the shot.
    
    Rick

	What are the options if any for a 30 or so yard pitch shot that 
	completely embeds itself in a very loose sand trap?  This actually
	happened to a friend this Saturday.  It was near the upper lip of
	the trap and there wasn't any indentation or indication as to were
	the ball might be other than the 3 inch area where we presumed.  We
	found it immediately upon excavation.  It seems so very unfair to
	assess a penalty stroke.  How should this be treated, unplayable/lost
	etc?

	Freebie,

	ps. Saw an unraked trap too that day and couldn't help but think of
	you Walta so I did the good golf samaritan thing and raked it 8^)

    
        Try playing out of Trull Brook sand traps.  They don't leave
     rakes on the course, a course by the way that has quite a few of
     them.  Out of 5 traps hit so far, I've landed in 3 footprints.
     I'll curse and mutter, but still play it as it lies.
    
        Our league also has a preferred lie rule in your own fairway.
     However, this year I'm trying something new.  I'm not rolling over
     anything, just to prepare for any tournaments that I can't take
     any preferred lies.  I've had several miserable lies, but haven't
     noticed any breakdown of the swing and/or scores. 
    
    -rick 

	You can uncover enough sand to find that there is a ball there.
	Once you play the ball out of the hazard you must identify the ball
	to be yours.  There is no penalty for playing the wrong ball within
	a hazard.

	I share the same frustration on un raked traps.  I am a decent sand
	player & don't have a problem playing a fried egg lie if that's the
	result of my errant shot.  However the ruts from foot prints, unraked
	sand shots & the like can be murder to play out of.  Anyone playing
	Stow recently can identify with the need for a local rule.

	Larry

    reply .187
    
    	Hey, now that's good news! Glad to hear you took the time to
    rake the trap Freebie! I'm sure the next person who hit that trap
    would buy you a beer :) .
    
    	
    Reply -1 (I think)
    
    	Stow should definitely adopt a local ruling for traps ! The course
    gets creamed by irresponsible golfers... it's pretty sad considering
    the money you have to pay to play there, and how awesome it could be!
    
    	I once played a round (don't tell Eunhwa ;) ) ... in the morning
    and was the first to go off. The weather was drizzly/cold . But I'll
    never forget how awesome the greens were, every putt rolled true, there
    wasn't a single ball mark! It's really upsetting to know how nice
    conditions could be with a little help from everyone.
    
    	I just played in two tourny's this weekend, and the rules were
    you get a club length preffered lie in the fairway, 6 inches in the
    rough, and rake and place in the traps.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    
    	Walta

    
    Several years ago while playing 18 at Amherst CC I hit into the trap in
    front of the green on #2. I see my ball, and in order for me to clear the
    lip of the bunker I realize that I have to get way under it. So I hit
    well under the ball and low and behold I not only hit my ball out of
    the bunker but another as well. It seems that my ball came to rest on
    top of another ball that was barried in the sand. I just played my ball
    and didn't count it as 2 strokes 8*).
    
    Mike

>    rough, and rake and place in the traps.

	Boy I could be a great sand player if I could "place" the ball in
	the sand on a perfect lie.

	Signed Larry who's greatest thrill was holing out from the sand
	twice last year.  (Previous to that never in ~15 years of play)

    I quite often play golf with my wife.
    
    Amazingly enough, we are still speaking (!) but there is one small
    question that we would like to resolve and that is, where do I give
    her strokes :-)
    
    We have a handicap difference of 8, so I need to give her 6 shots.
    The only problem is that, on the courses we play, the ladies' stroke
    indexes are different to the men's. Does she take shots on the ladies
    S.I 1-6 or do I give her shots on the mens S.I. 1-6 ?
                                 
    Can anybody help ?  
    
    Michael.
     
    

    
    Michael,
    
    Your wife (any female) gets strokes according to the ladies handicap
    holes... Unless they are playing from the men's tees... ;-)
    
    Gene

    re .-1
    
    Thanks, Gene. 
    
    Having worked out where to give her strokes, now I have to beat
    her !!
    
    Michael.
    

    
    :-) good luck Michael...!

    
    Oh ya, while we are on the subject. One thing you have to watch 
    for is those holes that are a par 5 for women and 4 for men...!
    If you are playing against a female and she gets a 5 on one of
    these holes and it is a stroke hole for her, it beats your 4 (for example).
    
    Gene

    Re: .195
    
>    Having worked out where to give her strokes, now I have to beat
>    her !!

	Beating your wife is illegal in most states! ;-)

	Larry

    
    re .197
    
    A little late in responding, but......
    
    My wife and I play a lot together. However she has the same HDCP as I
    do. Last year we played the new course in Litchfield NH. We only played
    9 so they put us on the back. Hole 17 is totally screwed up. It's a 169
    yd par 3 for the men, but a 150 yd par 4 for the women (at least
    according to the scorecard). So I hit the ball and end up in the
    bunker, then chip out and 2 putt for a 4. My wife hits a beautiful shot
    landing 3' from the pin and putts in for a birdie. But I have to give
    her a stroke, so she ends up beating me by 3 strokes on that hole.
    
    From now on she plays from the mens tees.
    
    Mike

    
    re .199
    
    I believe that the score card is wrong at Pasaconoway (Litchfield), our
    league plays there and until they change the score card the we all
    play by the men pars (even the women), the 17th was not the only 
    suspicious hole if memory serves.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    RE .200
    
    I know, I play in the same league. I'm also the one who brought the
    discrepencies with Brad Becker ad the committee.
    
    Mike

    Hi Golfers,
    Situation:Tee shot fades into woods about 3ft.Ball comes
    to rest about 1 ft. from a drainage pipe that is 1/2 in and
    1/2 out of the ground.To successfully pitch out I must stand
    on this pipe with my right foot.
    Question:Am I obligated to make this shot under these 
    circumstances?Or can I take the ball straight back in the
    line of flight for relief without a stroke penalty.
    Or better yet take one club length toward the fairway.
                                                           Ricky O.       

    
    I believe you get a free drop to the "nearest point of relief", could
    be further into the woods, or in the fairway.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    
    here's a tought one that might be a league stipulation....
    
    It takes place on Juniper Hill's 17'th par 200yd overwater par3
    
    It's a par3 with water all in front of you and has a little fairway
    up the left if you can't hit over the water...
    
    I slice my tee shot over the water but to the right it looks like
    it plugged near the side of the pond.....???
    Im not sure so I play a provisional and dropped it in the water
    hit another one and in the water again seeing it's league and it's
    busy I say well I think I know were the first on is..so I sart out
    to find it ...I come upon the area I think it's in and find 2 other
    ball but mine...I like the 5minute rule so I say well I'll drop
    one here and then I proceed to drop a ball and hit it on the green...
    while Im on the other side of the pond I need to keep walking down
    the shore to get to the green and surely enough I come upon my ball
    30 yds down the shore...I don't know what do so I play it and hit
    it on the green.....I finish with that ball and endup with what I think
    is a 4 so we put a 4 with a question mark next to it...we come in and
    explain it to the pro and he says I can hit a million provisionals but 
    the minute I drop that other ball it's a penalty....he says I really
    have an incomplete hole because I never wnet back to the tee and
    hit a playable ball....(i agree) but with league rules what do you
    do for handi-caps...I mean do you just penalize me for the provisionals
    do you give me a standard score of 12 or something....
    
    the bottom line is I didn't tecnically finish the hole so how can
    you count all the penalties...???
    
    Bill
    I play a ball 

RE: .204 Bill,

For handicapping purposes most handicappers only count a double bogey after
adding the strokes you get on the hole for any adjustment. Then if you blow
out you only lose .1 anyway. At least that's what my club handicapper does. The
thinking being that you can't 10 putt the 18th in order to handbrake. Also your
handicap won't be penalised for having one horror hole.

As far as your result for the round is concerned, if it was a stroke round, then
you would have to be disqualified for having a non completed round. If it was a
stableford, or par event, then it would just count as a wipe, the score 
effectively being a double bogey, and you would have a valid result for the
round.

Even if your result is a disqualitication, I would think you could still be 
handicapped if you completed the other 17 holes, and the incomplete hole would
be counted as a double bogey.

Lindsay

    
    Our league has a similar 5 minute rule, here is what would happen in 
    your situation (according to my understanding).
    
    You go to find your first ball, if you find it fine, play it. If not, 
    you drop one there hitting 4 (not 3 as you would from the tee, this is
    a league stipulation for our league).
    
    The way I understand the rules, once you declare a ball lost, which you
    did by dropping and playing another, if you find the original ball you
    cannot play the original.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    
    yes , thats our league's rule but would you count my
    provisionals...????
    Bill

    
    If you hit the provisionals, and can't find the original, then you
    either have to play the provisionals or count them.
    
    So (a guess) here is what you should be hitting:
    
    1 - lost
    3 - water
    drop where original was lost hitting 6 (2 shot normal, plus one
    additional so you don't have to walk to the tee--league rule)
    
    sound right?
    
    --Bob
    

    
    I know I posted the phone number for the USGA in here some place, but
    i can't find it. Can somebody please help...?
    
    Thanks
    Gene

    USGA phone number
    
    
    800-223-0041 
    in NJ 201 234 2300
    
    Dave

    	Our league, like a lot of leagues, plays a combination of
    	match and medal play. The following infractions were made
    	during a round. What are the rulings on the following?
    
	1. Player A wins the hole, player B taps down varies
	   blades of grass in the line of his putt (not ball marks).
	   What is the penalty? Does it affect player A's winning of
	   the hole? BTW, player A and player B are partners...

	2. Player B ties the hole, player A has a short putt that is
	   not conseeded, he places his hand in the hole and taps the
	   ball into his hand. The ball never went to the bottom of the
	   hole (and I feel it is an infraction of the ball hitting the
	   player - two stroke panalty). What is the ruling and does it
	   affect player B's tieing of the hole... Player A and B are
    	   partners...


    
    	   Thanks
    	   Gene

>	1. Player A wins the hole, player B taps down varies
>	   blades of grass in the line of his putt (not ball marks).
>	   What is the penalty? Does it affect player A's winning of
>	   the hole? BTW, player A and player B are partners...

	Once Player A has won the hole the match is concluded for that 
	hole. Any play thereafter is not part of the competition so 
	penalties don't apply. If player B is involved in other 
	competitions (a side match or a medal pool) the rules apply to
	him.

	2. Player B ties the hole, player A has a short putt that is
	   not conseeded, he places his hand in the hole and taps the
	   ball into his hand. The ball never went to the bottom of the
	   hole (and I feel it is an infraction of the ball hitting the
	   player - two stroke panalty). What is the ruling and does it
	   affect player B's tieing of the hole... Player A and B are
    	   partners...

	If player B's putt was for the win, then I believe the penalty 
	is loss of hole, regardless of A's having tied, because the 
	competition is still in force and the infraction call for loss 
	of hole. If B's putt can result in no improvement over the
	score already posted by player A, then the situation is the 
	same as above.

    	RE: .213
    
    	I should have been clearer on our league format. We play
    	best ball individual net for a point and team total net each
    	hole for a point (2 points per hole)...
    	
    	Gene

    
    Though I am not real positive on these rules, here is my guess.
    
    Situation 1:
    
    Player A wins the point for low ball on the hole, but player B gets a 
    2 stroke penalty for his score, thus affecting the total for the hole.
    
    Situation 2:
    
    Player A should get the 2 shot penalty for touching the ball, but also
    since he never technically finished the hole he cannot be counted in
    the team total for the hole.
    
    --Bob
    

I heard the very end of a discussion last night about some sort of penalty if
you hit the pin on a putt?

I had left the pin in on a VERY long putt, hit the pin (I was just
trying to get close and wanted something to shoot at) and it dropped in.

should this have caused me to take a penalty on the hole?

    Holy cow, that is a penalty.
    
    Rule 17-3 BALL STRIKING FLAGSTICK OR ATTENDANT
    
    	The players ball shall not strike:
    
     c - The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the ball has been
    	 played from the PUTTING GREEN.
    
    	Penalty - Match play - Loss of hole ; Stoke play - Two strokes and
    	the ball shall be played as it lies.
    
    
    WOW...
    
    Jim
    

    Yup,
    .217 is right .now if you were putting from the apron
    or fringe and hit the pin and it dropped there would
    be no penalty.Also keep in mind on a shot like that
    if you choose to pull the pin with the ball still in
    the hole,be careful the ball stays in the hole when you
    do so or you will be forced to hole out again.
    
                                            Rick
    

    Funny this should come up.
    
    By now you must have seen Faldo's chip in on 18 at the Open. Jim McKay
    commented that Faldo never let the ball fall in the hole before
    removing it. Instead he removed the ball while the top half was still
    out of the hole wedged against the flagstick. This should have 
    constituted a penalty.
    
    Did anyone catch Jim McKay's comments. 
    
    Am I right in saying that "the ball must lie completely in the hole"
    
    Ken

    You are correct as I understand it.  If we are correct, then Faldo
    should be disqualified for signing an incorrect scorecard, because
    he did not take the penalty, he signed it as a "2".  Bet it doesn't
    happen.
    
    Big Mac

    Hard to believe that it slipped by'em...
    
    According to the book, if the ball falls into the cup, it is deemed to
    be holed.  But if it falls on the green, it has yet to be holed out. 
    Therefore, it's in the best interest of the person or his caddy to
    "remove" the flagstick.
    
    -dwight

    re: Faldo's chip in.
    
    Although the ball when it first went in the cup had a little bit
    showing, I'm almost certain that it fully disappeared before he got to
    the hole.
    Faldo is a professional, and i don't believe he could make an error
    like that.
    
    martin

    General note:  We play the same format as you describe (in a later reply)
	in our League (Amherst CC/Passaconnaway CC).  Any action that
	disqualifies a player from a hole by applying
	the 'loss of hole' penalty in most Match Play infractions
	applies to that player only.  Thus, his partner may win or tie
	the 'low ball' point for that hole.  The team loses the
	'low aggregate (total)' point for that hole.

	  An exercise for the reader:  What happens if one player on each
	team incurs a 'loss of hole' penalty?

    
>>>	1. Player A wins the hole, player B taps down varies
>>>	   blades of grass in the line of his putt (not ball marks).
>>>	   What is the penalty? Does it affect player A's winning of
>>>	   the hole? BTW, player A and player B are partners...

    Your side wins one point for best ball; other side wins best aggregate.

>>>	2. Player B ties the hole, player A has a short putt that is
>>>	   not conseeded, he places his hand in the hole and taps the
>>>	   ball into his hand. The ball never went to the bottom of the
>>>	   hole (and I feel it is an infraction of the ball hitting the
>>>	   player - two stroke panalty). What is the ruling and does it
>>>	   affect player B's tieing of the hole... Player A and B are
>>>    	   partners...

    Your side wins half a point because player B tied for 'best ball'.
    The other side gets a point and a half.

    PLAYER CATCHES BALL IN CUP:  On first reading I thought Rule 18 might
    apply here and you could get away with a one stroke penalty but then
    I looked at the heading:  Rule 18.  Ball at REST Moved.  The ball was
    not at rest when it was touched so this Rule does not apply.

**  Rule 1-2 Exerting Influence on Ball.

	No player or caddie shall take any action to influence the position
	or movement of a ball except in accordance with the Rules.

    Penalty (Match play) - Loss of hole.



**  from the "Definitions" section of the Rules:

	Holed - A ball is "holed" when it is at rest within the circumference
	    of the hole and all of it is below the level of the lib of the
	    hole.

    If Faldo's ball was completely below the lip, it was holed.

I recently played in a two-ball best ball (match play, of course) 
tournament where I played the wrong ball. When I realized I had 
played the wrong ball (after having taken two shots with it), I
went back and played my own ball. 

While neither my partner nor I scored well enough on the hole to
win it, we wondered how we would have scored it, for example, if
she had scored better than both of our opponents.

When we finished the round, we looked in up. For playing the wrong
ball, my score could not be used in determining who won the hole,
but my partner's still could be. We could still win the hole, even
though I was disqualified from it.

Patti

BTW: We won the tournament for the second year in a row. 8^)

                      <<< Note 41.158 by IAMOK::OCONNOR >>>
                        -< All the Way to the Bank!!! >-
>>
>>    Patti,
>>    Go for it!!!
>>    Have your reinstatement letter to the USGA signed and stamped and drop
>>    it in the mail box on the way to the bank.
>>    We noters will allow you your full handicap and I am sure that your
>>    league and club will to. Some time I think the USGA should put
>>    their common sense hats on and do some things right. Once the
>>    news blows over that you have won the only thing that you will have to
>>    worry about is your long lost cousins trying to touch you for some of
>>    the cash.
>>    Good luck
>>    Rich


	NEWS FLASH!


	Harry Jennings (21 home course handicap, USGA index, higher)
	scored a hole-in-one at the Duston CC Member/Guest tournament
	in Hopkington, NH Saturday, August 18. For the hole-in-one, 
	Harry won $5000 (count em, $5000 big ones!).

	Yes folks, believe it or not, we actually had a winner! It
	really made our day! I don't think Harry's too worried about
	losing him amateur status. He's planning a trip to Alaska,
	(after he pays the bar tab 8^)...) and yes, he's laughing all the 
	way to the bank!

	Patti

    Patti,
    
    Remember to keep your head absolutely still on those par threes next
    year!

	One of the tournament committee members mentioned that 
	for Harry to "officially" get his amateur status back,
	not only does he have to apply for it, but along with
	the application, he has to include $$$ in the way of
	10% of what he won, which in this case is $500 big ones.

	Anyone else heard of this?

	Patti

    Many years ago I attempted a career in Golf, thus becoming a
    "professional" and giving up my amateur status. I applied to regain my
    amateur status with no monetary penalty. My earnings were in the form
    of salary and lessons. Not prize money.
    
    Unless things have changed, I don't believe there is a pay-back.
    
    Ken

    
    
    I was looking through my latest golf supply catalog and noticed they
    were advertising  a "Tournament Legal" chipper.
    
    What makes a "Chipper" illegal , what makes one legal?
    
    If you can get a Legal one, will it help your short game.
    
    I looked through my rule book, I couldn't find anything that clearly
    out lawed the use of a Chipper.
    
    Shane
    

    The answer may lie in that some "chippers" come with a putter
    grip and this would make them "illegal" for tournament use. Also,
    if it is a two-sided chipper for either left or right hand use
    it must be counted as two clubs for purposes of maintaining the
    14 club rule.
    
    Mad Hacker

    I'm not sure that the grip makes a difference as long at it complys to
    the rules for proper grip size and shape. I couldn't find anything in
    my rules book that says I can't use a putter grip on my irons or woods.
    I also couldn't find anything about a "two-sided" club counting as two
    clubs. Any Bulls-Eye putter certainley falls in that cat.
    
    I believe there is nothing wrong with a chipper as long as complys to
    shape, groove size, and any other rules clubs are subject to. You must
    give up a club in your bag to use a chipper. The 14 club rule is really
    the only one effected.
    
    Ken

    Ken,
      There are many decisions made by the USGA rules committee that
    are not published in the rules book. Concerning grips, if your
    putter grip happens to conform to grip standards for all clubs
    then certainly you could use it on any club. However, most putter
    grips are constructed in such a way that they do not conform to
    normal grip standards but rather to specs (mostly concerning cross
    section design) put in the rules for putters .
        I don't agree that having a two sided club is just like using
    the backside of a bullseye putter. I will search my rule book and 
    decisions for specifics but feel strongly that the two-sided chipper
    counts as two clubs. But then again, I've been wrong before !  
                                                                   8^)
    
    
    Mad Hacker
    

  Here's what I found in the Rules (and what I think it means):

      Rule 4-1.  Form and Make of Clubs
       .
       .
       .
	d. CLUBHEAD
	  .
	  .
	  The clubhead shall have only one face designed for striking the ball,
	except that a putter may have two such faces if their characteristics
	are the same, they are opposite each other and the loft of each is
	the same and does not exceed 10 degrees.

  If a 'chipper' is made with a loft of 10 degrees or less, it can be
  considered a putter and therefore be legal.  There is no restriction
  against carrying multiple putters (other than the 14 club rule) and,
  in fact, Golf magazine ran an article this year advocating carrying
  two putters.

  Appendix II expands on Rule 4.  It doesn't add anything to the paragraph
  in 4-1d that I quoted above (it does talk about sighting mechanisms on
  the clubhead, tho').  It does give more specific language about the grip:

      4-1c. Grip
	(i)  For clubs other than putters, the grip must be generally circular
	  in cross-section, except that a continuous, straight, slightly raised
	  rib may be incorporated along the full length of the grip.
	(ii)  A putter grip may have a non-circular cross-section, provided
	  the cross-section has no concavity and remains generally similar
	  throughout the length of the grip.
	(iii)  The grip may be tapered but must not have any bulge or waist.

  Here again, if the 'chipper' conforms to the Rules as a putter, it is
  perfectly legal.  There is no rule saying you can only putt with a putter.

    
    re: -1
    
    Thanks for taking the time to look it up.
    
    A follow-up question comes from your answer:  If the chipper does
    exceed the 10 degree loft limit, would putting a regular grip in
    it make it legal?
    
    If most chippers are legal, why don'tmore people use them?  Does
    anyone in this file use one, do they work?
    
    Shane
    

    I usa a chipper.  It has two faces with the pitch of a five iron and
    the shaft of a putter.  It works fantastic in a good lie on the fringe. 
    Some times it works well out of sand.
    
    I guess that I'm hearing that it's not legal though.

    Most chippers have a loft somewhere between a 5 and 7 iron  so there
    goes the 10 degree exception. Remember that the grip makes it illegal
    for tournament play, what you do on your own time is your business.
    
    Mad Hacker

    
     When you play with me, I could care less if you chipped with sand
    rake or putted with the flag in a que stick manner. Enjoy the game
    and don't loose sleep over the small stuff.
     If your heading down to tour school they'll teach you all you need
    to know, if not remember my motto.
    
         N E V E R  B E  L A T E  F O R  Y O U R  T E E  T I M E
    
     - Dave

    Why do some of us follow different rules when playing a tournament?
    Why not use the same rules all the time? Isn't that what we are
    supposed to do?
    I think that it is against the rules to waive any of the rules.
    Rich (who_has_not-participated_for_a_long_time)

    Well Rich, some people never play in sanctioned events, bet with their
    buddies, try to maintain an index, etc. They just go out to the course
    and try to get around the 18 any way they can. Also there is nothing 
    wrong with going out to the course for a few holes of practice and not
    insuring that every rule is followed to the letter. I try to play by
    the rules even when I find them unfair and I expect the same from
    someone who is playing with me for money, a tourney, or a recorded
    round. Otherwise, I could care less if they have 30 clubs in their bag,
    use illegal balls, throw their ball out of the trap. That is their
    business.
         About waiving any rule being a violation, yes it is. Does that
     make many club events illegal because they come up with "special"
    club rules like double-par pickup, bumb the ball in the fairway, etc. ?
    I would hate to think that all my tourneys this year in the league are
    tainted because of waiving some rules and inventing a few of our own.
         I play several events each year where half the guys spend so much
    time counting the clubs in other players bags and looking for their
    opponents to create some infraction so they can call it on them that
    they hardly enjoy the tourney. Doesn't seem like much fun to me !!
    
       Good to see you back in the notesfile Rich. Had a great time that day
    last May at the infamous Fox/Meadows 36 holer, even if I only made 27
    holes before wimping out.
    
    Mad Hacker 
    

    i was wondering about if yout on your tee and your club is next to the
    ball and you accidently knock it off the tee does it count as stroke.
    if you are on the fairway and take a practice swing and you hit the
    ball does that count?
    
    thanks
    Tony
    

    
    re: -1,  If I read the rule correctly, bumping the ball off of 
    a tee when you are not swinging at the ball is not a stroke.

    re .240
    
    I don't have a rule book handy, so I am only sure of 1 of the 2 
    questions you ask.
    
    If you bump the ball off the tee while addressing the ball, nope, it
    is not a penalty. You re-tee and go for it.
    
    If you move the ball in the fairway, then it may get more complicated.
    I would guess that technically it is a 2 stroke penalty for moving the
    ball (taking relief) when you shouldn't. Most places have the local
    rule that you can move the ball in your own fairway (preferred lie),
    this may complicate it, but I believe by the book it's a penalty.
    
    --Bob
    

    Read in a Golf magazine recently that there is an intent prtion to this
    whole question.  If you are clearly taking a practice swing, limbering
    etc. then there is no penalty.  An example cited was ...In the rough,
    while taking a practice swing, you hit another ball that was
    hidden...Ruling, No Penalty for playing wrong ball since the swing was
    clearly not one intended to strike the real ball. Since the rules are
    so unclear, this may not apply to moving or striking your own ball in
    the fairway.
    
    Guess the answer is...move behind the ball or away from the ball to
    remove all doubt.  
    
    SCD

I think the rule is pretty unequivocal when it come to striking your 
ball through the green: It's simply a stroke -- i.e., as far as the 
rules are concerned, it's wasn't a practice swing; you play the ball 
where the ball lies after your unintentional hit and add the stroke 
for hitting it there.

    RE -.241
    
      I disagree.  Once you address the ball, USGA rules state that any
    contact with the ball with your club is considered a stroke.  You 
    technically you would re-tee the ball and you would be hitting 2.
    That's why if you are playing winter rules, you are technically 
    supposed to place the ball with your hand not your club, but nobody
    seems to play that way.
    
      As to hitting the ball on a practice swing, it counts as a shot and
    you have to go and hit it from where it landed.  Could you image a
    pro on National TV doing either of these and then going and getting
    the ball and replacing from where he started?  He'd be laughed off the
    course.
    
    Andy

    re:245
    
    Not so, unless you are addressing the ball with the intention of
    hitting it.  This is supposedly why Jack Nicklaus does not ground his
    club, since grounding the club represents the last step before an
    intentional swing.
    
    This rule has been discussed on TV and written up in the magazines.  As
    to the ball in the fair way, I am still uncertain as to the
    application of the rule, but the actual occurence of hitting the wrong
    ball during a practice swing does not cost you.  Best to take practice
    swings far enough away as to avoid the problem.
    
    SCD

>    re:245
>    
>    Not so, unless you are addressing the ball with the intention of
>    hitting it.  This is supposedly why Jack Nicklaus does not ground his
>    club, since grounding the club represents the last step before an
>    intentional swing.
>    
	True! Watch Greg Norman when he tees off. Often he will tap the ball
	on top with his driver, if he has teed it up too high. Do you think he
	would do that if it was a stroke penalty? No Way!

    How else do you address the ball without the intention of hitting it?!
    
    The way I stated my response was that after you address the ball any
    contact is considered a stroke.  When I say address the ball I mean
    you step up to the ball, your done fooling around with your club and
    you rest it behind the ball.  At this point you have addressed the 
    ball.  If you knock it off the tee at this point, it is a stroke.
    I'm not considering all the time spent before you are ready to hit.
    I realize if you inadvertantly knock the ball off then that it doesn't
    count, I'm not that stupid!
    

         No one is trying to imply that you are stupid. However, the
    rules clearly state that there must have been intent to hit the
    ball. If you hit the ball on a practice swing, too bad, it wasn't
    a practice swing. Play it where it ends up and count the stroke.
    If it gets bumped off the tee when you are setting up, re-tee the
    ball. Where I get in trouble is on my forward press though, I have
    knocked the ball off the tee then and I take a penalty because I
    have started my swing. ie. intent . 
    
    Mad Hacker

    re:249
    
    Brings back memories...did this on a putt in the SCGA tourney a few
    years back.  LIned it up, set up, forward press...little twitch as I
    began my stroke and tink ...the ball moved.  Took a six, folded my
    tent three holes later.  This was an omen I am sure, because as a 16
    then, I was 1 over after 6 (three of the first 6 holes are par fives). 
    THe air got then, I was having a hard time breathing, my shorts got
    tight and the twitches started.  Terminal brainlock.
    
    SCD
    

    re.249
    
    Someone with the rule book should be able to confirm/deny this but when
    you knocked the ball off its tee on your forward press, it isn't
    considered a stroke.
    You must hit the ball on your downswing for it to be a stroke on a tee
    shot. I also believe that it OK if the ball falls off the peg as you
    are swinging back, so long as you don't pass the ball with the
    downswing.
    
    This movement of the ball during a stroke is also OK on the fairway, so
    long as you stop the swing in time.
    I was playing in a major singles strokeplay competition when one of my
    partners got a lie with the ball suspended in highish grass. As he
    began his swing the ball fell down an inch or so further into the
    grass. He said that he didn't touch the ball or the grass to cause this
    , but marked himself down as a penalty stroke. I felt that he was wrong
    to do so and told him not to sign his card until we found out for sure.
    It turned out not to be a penalty at all!
    
    It can be a fair game at times.....
    
    martin

Definitions:

Addressing the Ball
 A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has 
also grounded the club, except that in a hazard a player has addressed 
the ball when he has taken his stance. 

Ball Moved
 A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to
rest in any other place.

Stance
 Taking the "stance" consists in a player placing his feet in position for 
and preparatory to making a stroke.

Stroke
 A 'Stroke is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of 
fairly striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing
voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he is deemed not to have
made a stroke.


Rules
 
11.3 Ball Falling Off Tee
 If a ball, when not in play falls off a tee or is knocked off a tee by the 
player in addressing it, it may be re-teed without a penalty, but if a stroke
is made at the ball in these circumstances, whether the ball is moving or not,
the stroke counts but no penalty is incurred.

18-2 Ball Moved By Player
 a. General
 When a player's ball is in play, if:
  (i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, 
 touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or 
 causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or
  (ii) equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player shall incur a penalty stroke. The ball shall be replaced unless the 
movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun his swing and he does
not discontinue his swing.
 b. Ball moving After Address
 If a player's ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a 
result of a stroke), the player shall be deemed to have moved the ball and 
shall incur a penalty stroke. the player shall replace the ball unless the 
movement of the ball occurs after he has begun his swing and he does not 
discontinue his swing.
 c. Ball Moving After Loose Impediment Touched
 Through the green, if the ball moves after any loose impediment lying within a 
club-length of it has been touched by the player, his partner or their caddies 
and before the player has addressed it, the player shall be deemed to have moved 
the ball and shall incur a penalty stroke. the player shall replace the ball
 unless the movement of the ball occurs after he has begun his swing and he
does not discontinue his swing.


                <<< EMDS::$1$DUA10:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GOLF.NOTE;2 >>>
                      -< The TRUE Head Game... ;-)...:-{ >-
================================================================================
Note 41.240                   Rules and Regulations                   240 of 251
DASXPS::DIFRUSCIA "I'M THE NRA"                       8 lines  21-MAY-1991 12:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i was wondering about if yout on your tee and your club is next to the
    ball and you accidently knock it off the tee does it count as stroke.
    if you are on the fairway and take a practice swing and you hit the
    ball does that count?
    
    thanks
    Tony



Re: 41.240
Tony, there is no penalty for either of the situations that you described.
Refer to the definition of a stroke that says there must be an intent to
strike the ball for it to be a stroke.

    
================================================================================
Note 41.241                   Rules and Regulations                   241 of 251
BTOQA::SHANE                                          3 lines  21-MAY-1991 12:47
                                    -< No >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    re: -1,  If I read the rule correctly, bumping the ball off of 
    a tee when you are not swinging at the ball is not a stroke.

Re: 41.241
Shane, you are correct.


================================================================================
Note 41.242                   Rules and Regulations                   242 of 251
CHRLIE::HUSTON                                       16 lines  21-MAY-1991 13:06
                      -< Sure about 1, not sure about 2 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re .240
    
    I don't have a rule book handy, so I am only sure of 1 of the 2 
    questions you ask.
    
    If you bump the ball off the tee while addressing the ball, nope, it
    is not a penalty. You re-tee and go for it.
    
    If you move the ball in the fairway, then it may get more complicated.
    I would guess that technically it is a 2 stroke penalty for moving the
    ball (taking relief) when you shouldn't. Most places have the local
    rule that you can move the ball in your own fairway (preferred lie),
    this may complicate it, but I believe by the book it's a penalty.
    
    --Bob

Re: 41.242
Bob, if the ball moves in the fairway it is a one, not two, stroke penalty. 
If you move it with the club in the process of addressing it there is no 
penalty. The ball must be replaced. However, if you have addressed it 
(taken your stance and grounded your club) and it moves there is a one 
stroke penalty, regardless of how the ball is moved. If you have picked up
a blade of grass within one club-length of the ball and it moves, you incurr
a penalty stroke.

    
================================================================================
Note 41.243                   Rules and Regulations                   243 of 251
NEWPRT::JOHNSON_DO                                   13 lines  21-MAY-1991 17:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Read in a Golf magazine recently that there is an intent prtion to this
    whole question.  If you are clearly taking a practice swing, limbering
    etc. then there is no penalty.  An example cited was ...In the rough,
    while taking a practice swing, you hit another ball that was
    hidden...Ruling, No Penalty for playing wrong ball since the swing was
    clearly not one intended to strike the real ball. Since the rules are
    so unclear, this may not apply to moving or striking your own ball in
    the fairway.
    
    Guess the answer is...move behind the ball or away from the ball to
    remove all doubt.  
    
    SCD

RE 41.243
SCD, you are right there is no penalty, however, if you play a wrong ball
through the green, thinking it is yours there is a two stroke penalty and
you must go back to where you first struck the wrong ball and add two at that
point and play the correct ball and count the strokes from there. 


================================================================================
Note 41.244                   Rules and Regulations                   244 of 251
MR4DEC::TDAVIS                                        5 lines  22-MAY-1991 14:21
                           -< Play it where it lies >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the rule is pretty unequivocal when it come to striking your 
ball through the green: It's simply a stroke -- i.e., as far as the 
rules are concerned, it's wasn't a practice swing; you play the ball 
where the ball lies after your unintentional hit and add the stroke 
for hitting it there.


Re 41.243
Tom, there is no penalty unless there is an intent to strike the ball.


================================================================================
Note 41.245                   Rules and Regulations                   245 of 251
MEMORY::HUGHES "Life is too SHORT to take it seriou" 16 lines  24-MAY-1991 13:52
                              -< Both count..... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    RE -.241
    
      I disagree.  Once you address the ball, USGA rules state that any
    contact with the ball with your club is considered a stroke.  You 
    technically you would re-tee the ball and you would be hitting 2.
    That's why if you are playing winter rules, you are technically 
    supposed to place the ball with your hand not your club, but nobody
    seems to play that way.
    
      As to hitting the ball on a practice swing, it counts as a shot and
    you have to go and hit it from where it landed.  Could you image a
    pro on National TV doing either of these and then going and getting
    the ball and replacing from where he started?  He'd be laughed off the
    course.
    
    Andy

Re 41.245
Andy, you are correct as far as the stroke penalty after addressing the ball,
but that is through the green not on the tee. 
The USGA does not endorse winter rules, but if, through the green or in your
own fairway, winter rules are in effect via a local rule, then I do not see
how you can incurr a penalty stroke.
Again, ther is no penalty for striking a ball durnig a practice stroke. 
According to the definition there must be intent.




================================================================================
Note 41.246                   Rules and Regulations                   246 of 251
NEWPRT::JOHNSON_DO                                   14 lines  24-MAY-1991 17:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re:245
    
    Not so, unless you are addressing the ball with the intention of
    hitting it.  This is supposedly why Jack Nicklaus does not ground his
    club, since grounding the club represents the last step before an
    intentional swing.
    
    This rule has been discussed on TV and written up in the magazines.  As
    to the ball in the fair way, I am still uncertain as to the
    application of the rule, but the actual occurence of hitting the wrong
    ball during a practice swing does not cost you.  Best to take practice
    swings far enough away as to avoid the problem.
    
    SCD

Re: 41.246
SCD, you are right and offer good advice.

================================================================================
Note 41.247                   Rules and Regulations                   247 of 251
KAPTIN::BLEI "Larry Bleiweiss 297-5408 MR04-2/C15"   13 lines  28-MAY-1991 08:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    re:245
>    
>    Not so, unless you are addressing the ball with the intention of
>    hitting it.  This is supposedly why Jack Nicklaus does not ground his
>    club, since grounding the club represents the last step before an
>    intentional swing.
>    
	True! Watch Greg Norman when he tees off. Often he will tap the ball
	on top with his driver, if he has teed it up too high. Do you think he
	would do that if it was a stroke penalty? No Way!

Re: 41.246
Larry, I never knew that Norman did that, and you are right.

================================================================================
Note 41.248                   Rules and Regulations                   248 of 251
MEMORY::HUGHES "Life is too SHORT to take it seriou" 11 lines  28-MAY-1991 08:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    How else do you address the ball without the intention of hitting it?!
    
    The way I stated my response was that after you address the ball any
    contact is considered a stroke.  When I say address the ball I mean
    you step up to the ball, your done fooling around with your club and
    you rest it behind the ball.  At this point you have addressed the 
    ball.  If you knock it off the tee at this point, it is a stroke.
    I'm not considering all the time spent before you are ready to hit.
    I realize if you inadvertantly knock the ball off then that it doesn't
    count, I'm not that stupid!
    

Re 41.248
Andy, The rule states that there is no penalty when, on the tee, you bump it
off the tee. The tee being the little wooden peg.


================================================================================
Note 41.249                   Rules and Regulations                   249 of 251
RAYBOK::COOPER "One-ton Tomato !"                    10 lines  28-MAY-1991 12:46
                            -< Must have intent ! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         No one is trying to imply that you are stupid. However, the
    rules clearly state that there must have been intent to hit the
    ball. If you hit the ball on a practice swing, too bad, it wasn't
    a practice swing. Play it where it ends up and count the stroke.
    If it gets bumped off the tee when you are setting up, re-tee the
    ball. Where I get in trouble is on my forward press though, I have
    knocked the ball off the tee then and I take a penalty because I
    have started my swing. ie. intent . 
    
    Mad Hacker

Re 41.249
Jim, How the hell are you? Ready for Crumpin' Fox? You are adding a penalty
when you don't have to. Isn't the game tough enough?


================================================================================
Note 41.250                   Rules and Regulations                   250 of 251
NEWPRT::JOHNSON_DO                                   12 lines  28-MAY-1991 12:58
                    -< Jim Palmer in Peewee Herman shorts >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re:249
    
    Brings back memories...did this on a putt in the SCGA tourney a few
    years back.  LIned it up, set up, forward press...little twitch as I
    began my stroke and tink ...the ball moved.  Took a six, folded my
    tent three holes later.  This was an omen I am sure, because as a 16
    then, I was 1 over after 6 (three of the first 6 holes are par fives). 
    THe air got then, I was having a hard time breathing, my shorts got
    tight and the twitches started.  Terminal brainlock.
    
    SCD
    
Re: 41.250
SCD, you did the correct thing. Jack Nicklaus does not ground his putter
for just that reason.


================================================================================
Note 41.251                   Rules and Regulations                   251 of 251
SIOG::OGRADY                                         23 lines  29-MAY-1991 04:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re.249
    
    Someone with the rule book should be able to confirm/deny this but when
    you knocked the ball off its tee on your forward press, it isn't
    considered a stroke.
    You must hit the ball on your downswing for it to be a stroke on a tee
    shot. I also believe that it OK if the ball falls off the peg as you
    are swinging back, so long as you don't pass the ball with the
    downswing.
    
    This movement of the ball during a stroke is also OK on the fairway, so
    long as you stop the swing in time.
    I was playing in a major singles strokeplay competition when one of my
    partners got a lie with the ball suspended in highish grass. As he
    began his swing the ball fell down an inch or so further into the
    grass. He said that he didn't touch the ball or the grass to cause this
    , but marked himself down as a penalty stroke. I felt that he was wrong
    to do so and told him not to sign his card until we found out for sure.
    It turned out not to be a penalty at all!
    
    It can be a fair game at times.....
    
    martin

Re 41.251
Martin, as long as your friend did not address the ball there is no penalty.
Did he move anything within a club-length of the ball? If he did there was,
indeed, a penalty.


Hope that does the trick. I don't think that there are any errors there, I
am sure that you will let me know if there are.

May all of 'em drop to the bottom.

Rich

    rich,
    
    Thanks for putting that reply together.
    Yes, your comment about the addressing of the ball being crucial is
    true. My partner didn't address it, in that he never grounded the club.
    The ball was suspended about 6 inches in the air, so he was hovering
    the club when it moved.
    
    martin

    
    
    I was playing the front at juniper yesterday and my oponents ball was
    stolen from the fairway, by a fox.  There seem to be several families
    of them living around the course and they aren't shy at all.  They
    stand right at the edge of the fairway and watch you play, and if they
    are close to your ball than you are, watch out.  One just walked out
    while we were comming up the fairway and snagged a ball out of the
    middle and walked away (walked not ran...).  Another was standing there
    looking at the balls and then looking back at us just waiting for
    an opportunity...
    
    Anyway, we just let the guy drop another ball where his first one was.
    Do you suppose this is in the rule book anywhere ?
    
    -laura

    They must be working for the pro shop...
    

    re:
    drop
    
    I believe that this is correct.  Since the ball was removed by an
    outside agent, no penalty, drop nearest to the spot that everyone
    agrees.
    
    Probably a remote controlled Fox and a guy that looks a lot like BIll
    Murray sitting in the trees snickering.  Did Juniper import them in
    from Crumpin-Fox?  Is this now Juniper-Fox and Crumpin?  So many
    questions?  So little time?
    
    SCD

    
    Ball eating Fox, I love it!  Up here in VT. there is a public course
    in West Bolton.  Along the 7th fairway are a bunch of condos.  Someone
    from the condos had a Doberman and a Boxer, these two huge dogs would
    routinely come out and scarf up balls right out of the fairway.  As 
    big as they were you just let them go about there business!   
    
    Shane
    

    
    This just came up this morning:
    
    If you a chipping onto the green and you hit anther ball, is there 
    a penalty and who is it against?
    
    Also, what about full shots into the green.  Say you tee off from
    a par 3 and hit another ball that's already on the green??????
    
    Shane
    

    
    Just when you thought the 'Fox' was the name of a golf course! Go see 
    it's new rival...
    
    
    The Crunching Fox..... 8^)
    
    
    Good job golfballs are too big for squirrels!
    
    
    Phil.
    
    
    
    
    
    

	
	Behind my parents neighborhood is the Maynard Country Club. 
	Occasionally some of the neighborhood dogs frolic in the 
	fairways. There's a golden retriever that takes balls by habit. 
	Golfers complained about it so the management took a yellow
	ball and mounted it to the dog's collar on a chain. I did not
	believe it till I saw it one day!   

    re: 260
    
    Samantha Fox...bite my tongue.  Help me Bill, the urge to make a few
    comments is very strong.  Reminds me of the Johnny Carson/Mrs. Arnold
    Palmer interview.  Any further comment and the moderator will write
    lock this one too.
    
    SCD

    RE: Shane on hitting another ball on the green.
    
    If you are chipping to the green (you are off the green), you play your
    ball where it lies, and the other ball is replaced: no penalty.
    (if you do that when you're on the green there is a 2 stroke penalty
    to you and the other ball is replaced)
    
    The same thing holds true in the situation of teeing off, shots through
    the green.
    
    AS for Samatha Fox, heck I'd chase her down..... might even be able to
    get my golf back. :-)
    
    
    
    						KO

    Question:
    
    Seems I remember some twist of this rule as it applies to Par 3's. 
    Maybe some rule officionados can chime in.  On a par three, and the
    person teeing before you hits the green, what happens if you hit
    his/her ball?  This came up in a TV tourney some months ago, believe it
    was Calchivecchia(SIC), he did not hit the other ball, but the
    announcers rambled about the rule until I got confused.
    
    SCD

    SCD
    
    There is no penalty. The ball that was hit must be replaced as close to
    the original position as possible. Should the ball that hit the ball on
    the green  occupy the the position of the first ball, the player shall
    play without undue delay and then the first ball shall be replaced.
    
    Rich

    Re:Undue Delay
    
    Thanks.  Does this mean Bernhard Langer would have a problem ????
    
    SCD

    Speaking of stolen balls:
    
    A couple of weeks ago I was playing this course that had several
    "parallel" holes, and on one I hooked into an adjacent fairway, and
    someone stole my ball.
    
    The worst part is the dummy took a ball that had my initials on it and
    proceeded to *play with it*. I know this because the doof sliced onto
    my fairway a couple of holes later and I promptly collected my ball
    back...
    
    It was a real pleasure to look back, as we motored down the fairway in
    our golf cart, and watch the moron treading around in circles!
    
    Brian

    Back to the original question !! If your ball is taken by a an animal
    or bird it is considered an "outside agency" and you you may place a
    ball as near to the position of the original ball with no penalty.
    
    Mad Hacker

    By the way what is procedure and penalty in the event that you play a
    wrong ball for one stroke, go back and find your own ball and then
    continue play?  
    
    Is it number of strokes taken with your ball plus 2 (penalty) strokes
    for hitting the wrong ball.
    
    Does number of strokes taken with the wrong ball matter?  What about
    case of playing wrong ball for more than one hole?
    
    Believe it or not it happened twice in corporate cup, once to yours
    truly who's ball was not showing any markings in rough and was too lazy
    to bend over and move it to check.
    
    Bill

    RE: .269
    
    In a match play you lose the hole.  In a stroke play you will add two
    penalty strokes to the score for the hole AND SHALL THEN PLAY THE
    CORRECT BALL.
    
    This does not apply in a hazard, however. For instance if you hit your
    tee shot into a water hazard and you decide to hit it out.  After
    several try you get it out only to find out it's not yours.  You go
    back and find your ball and (thanks to several practice shots) you get
    it out in first try. You lie there two hitting three.
    
    Now I'm not sure of playing wrong ball for several holes. Because you
    didn't play the correct ball, I think that's a basis for
    disqualification.
    
    Regards

    Lost ball?
    
    Technically there is no such thing as a lost ball...just misplaced.  If
    you are an equilibriumist(things in balance and all that) then the
    person who finds a lost ball should get two strokes subtracted for a
    "found ball".  Only fair, don't you think?
    
    SCD

    Along with wrong ball, provisional ball rule is another misused rule. 
    If you think a ball may be LOST outside a WATER HAZARD or may be OUT
    OF BOUNDS, you can play another ball provisionally as nearly as
    possible at the spot which the original ball was played.  You just need
    to INFORM your fellow players that you intend to play a PROVISIONAL
    BALL and play it. You DO NOT have to get permission from your fellow
    player to play a provisional ball.  But if you fail to inform and then
    play another ball, it's not a provisional ball and becomes the BALL IN
    PLAY under penalty of stroke and distance; the original ball is deemed
    to be lost.
    
    Once you hit your provisional, you may hit it as many times until you
    reach the place where your original ball is likely to be. But if your
    original ball was found but you played a stroke with the provisional
    ball from the place closer to the hole, the original ball is deemed to
    be LOST and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under
    penalty of stroke and distance.
    
    Regards

re: .269, .270

>>>    Now I'm not sure of playing wrong ball for several holes. Because you
>>>    didn't play the correct ball, I think that's a basis for
>>>    disqualification.
    
 True in stroke play (disqualification).  In match play, you simply lose
 the hole on which you first hit the wrong ball.  Under the 'General'
 section of the Rule (15-1) "A player must hole out with the ball played
 from the teeing ground....".  Thus when you tee up the 'wrong ball' on the
 next tee, it becomes your ball.

    Re: .273
    
    But......
    How would you determine which hole you first hit the wrong ball?  If
    the player was dumb enough to play the wrong ball for several holes, he
    probably can't tell you which hole was first.  This leads to another
    problem, if you can't determine the RIGHT hole to disqualify and the
    match was a close game there may be a heated discussion with your
    opponent.
    
    Anyway, to avoid frustration just spend extra few seconds to make sure
    it's you ball.

    
    Hi,
    
    	I was in a golf tournament couple weekends ago...  a player in
    	my foursome was having a bad day. On a par 3 downhill, he hit
    	his shot short appeared to have entered the brook running in
    	front of the green. As he walked to the brook he stepped on 
    	a ball, (he was not in the confines of a hazard) turned out
    	it was his ball. The ball was now imbedded and he asked for a ruling. 
    
    	What should he have done?
    
    	He ended up playing the ball and it cost him a double bogie.
    
    	thanks
    		Walta

    re:274
    
    Sounds like a great arguement for playing PINK golf balls.  
    
    SCD

    question:
    a friend of mine swears this is true.
    he hit a nine iron shot and the golf ball split in two.
    he dropped another ball and played it with no penalty.
    sounds right to me.  is there a rule covering this?
    
    hack nicklaus
    

    
    re .277
    
    During one of the pro turnaments they had a trivia quiz on a similar
    situation.
    
    Seems this pro had hit his ball into a tree and the cover got knocked
    off the ball and fell to the ground. However the inside of the ball
    bounced off the tree and went into the hole.
    
    The ruling was he had to place another ball where the cover was. The
    cover is what is considered the ball.
    
    Mike

    
    
    I made my own long-putter last night.  I cut down the shaft of a 
    broken putter and inserted it into the top of the shaft of an
    old blade putter I had kicking around.  
    
    I bonded the two together, and made the lower grip out of tape.  It's
    not too pretty but it works well enough to let me figure out if I'd
    like to invest in one someday, (I have problems with my lower back and
    I've been trying all year to get comfortable while putting).
    
    My question is:  I a home made long shafted putter like this legal?
    
    I think I remember hearing on ESPN once that one of hte senior tour 
    guys did the same thing.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Shane
    

    Re: .279
    
    If I remeber correctly, as long as the shafts don't detach it is legal,
    but I think USGA just announced that starting next year they are going
    to make separate grips illegal on putters. (I MAY be wrong about this,
    so don't hold me to it)
    
    Regards

    
    re: -1
    
    Thanks....  It is my intention to only fool around with this one 
    long (excuse the pun) enough to see if I like the idea, and then
    buy another one.
    
    SHane
    

    RE: .280
    
    I think the new rule for long putters is that you can have 2 grips as
    long as they are not *both* putter grips. If one is a putter grip the 
    other grip has to be more or less round (can't be shaped to your hand). 
    So, I think Shane's putter is OK as long as the tape is round. 
    
    Greg

    
    Hi   
    
    	I was in a tourny yesterday... one of the two closest to the 
    	pin holes was about 130 yards downhill. As we were standing at
    	the tee, looking at the green it looked as if there was an
    	"out of bounds" stake stuck in the green about 20' left of 
    	the stick.
    
    	(Well, the stake turned out to be a large piece of white cardboard
    	with names on it for closest to the pin, with a skinny metal
    	spike going through it into the green... it looked like
    	a sail on a boat all puffed out..)
    
    	People were gathered near the hole and they said;
           I hit my shot, and it flew right at the flagstick...
    	it ended up hitting the stick about 1' above the hole , hit
    	the cup , then flew left toward the sign at a good pace.
    	The ball hit the cardboard sign near the top,  the sign bowed..
    	and through the ball back at the hole! The ball came to rest
    	2' from the pin!
    
    	If the ball didn't hit the sign it would have rolled off the 
    	green... but instead, I ended up winning the closest to the
    	pin... :)   What a fluke !
    
    	This is when the argument started...  If the ball went into the
    	cup, would it be counted as a hole in one? Or does hitting the
    	sign cancel it out?
    
    
    	Thanks  Walta
    		

    
    Ace in the hole!!!!
    

    
    I asked a question awhile ago that I believe is along the same lines.
    
    anyway, the answer I got is that you play the course as you find it.
    I would imagine that the marker is to be considered part of the course,
    so when you hit it it is the same as hitting a tree, cart path or
    even the flag stick.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    The following story happened last year at Manchester CC.
    
    On a par three this guy is waiting on the tee to hit. The group on the
    green waives his group on. He uses a 4 iron and hits a shot in a direct
    line at the pin (but a little long). The ball bounces once and hits a
    guy in the group who waived him on right smack in the head. The ball
    then bounces to the green and rolls right in the cup for a hole-in-one.
    
    The ace did count, but the guy who's head it hit didn't get credited
    with the assist. 8*) 8*)
    
    Mike

    
    Reply last few;
    
    	Hi ,
    
    	Thanks for the quick response...
                                     
    	Mike-  That's quite a story ! I never heard that one... hell of
    		a way to make an Ace. Ouch.
    
    	I figured it wouldn't count if my shot went in... thinking ,
    	if I were to place some additional "ball deflection" devices
    	in appropriate locations, I may guide a ball to the hole? 
    	
    	Isn't their something in the rules forbidding movable
    	obstructions (excluding the flagstick, ballmarkers) from being placed
    	on the green? 
    
    
    	Maybe it's legal?? That would explain that guy who made something
    	like 56(?) aces so far ! :)  He probably chips the ball into
    	a bucket that funnels straight to the cup!
    
    	Walta

    
    Walta,
    
    If YOU place additional ball deflector devices, and your ball hits one
    and goes in the hole, then it wouldn't count. However if the course
    places them, then it would count.
    
    Mike

    
    Hi Mike,
    
    	That makes sense... as Gilda Radner would say 
    
    			Never mind.
    
    	Walta

    A friend of mine is trying to verify if the following is true, or if
    someone is trying to put one over on him.
    
    			Temporary Rules, 1941
                         Richmond Golf Club
                          London, England
    
    
    1.  Players are asked to collect the bomb and shrapnel splinters to
    save these causing damage to the mowing machines.
    
    2.  In competitions, during gunfire or while bombs are falling, players
    may take shelter without penalty or ceasing play.
    
    3.  The positions of known delayed action bombs are marked by red flags
    at a reasonable, but not guaranteed, safe distance therefrom.
    
    4.  Shrapnel and/or bomb splinters on theFairways, or in Bunkers,
    within a club's length of a ball, may be moved without penalty, and no
    penalty shall be incurred if a ball is thereby caused to move
    accidentally.
    
    5.  A ball moved by enemy action may be replaced, or if lost, or
    destroyed, a ball may be dropped not nearer the hole without penalty.
    
    6.  A ball lying in a crater may be lifted and dropped not nearer the
    hole, preserving the line t the hole, without penalty.
    
    7.  A player whose stroke is affected by the simultaneous explosion of
    a bomb may play another ball.  Penalty one stroke.
    
    			COMPLMENTS OF CENTRALAB
    

    	I'd have to belive they were true. Wasn't this about the time
    the Germans were bombing the snot out of England, particularly
    London?

    Ruling question:  A player loses a ball in a rough area near to
    out-of-bounds markers.  (in this particular case it was overshooting an
    elevated green with woods behind it) There is a difference of opinion
    on whether or not the ball actually went far enough to be OB, but noone
    actually had a clear view of where the ball landed.  What's the ruling?

    
    Lost ball, unless someone saw the ball go out of bounds there is no
    way you can assume it did!  
    
    
    Jim

    
    re: last 2
    
    What's the difference?  If the ball is lost or O.B.  In both cases
    you have to drop where you last hit the ball. (I think any ways)
    

    Big difference.  A lost ball cost a stroke and is played near the point
    it was lost, not hit.  OB is both a stroke and distance penalty.

    
    
    That is not true, a lost ball is also stroke and distance, in this 
    paticular incident, there is no difference, but if it was a hazard and
    not OB, there could be a large diffence!

    You mean to say that since his ball could not be found he should have
    returned to the point he hit the shot and taken a point penalty?  If
    you hit a drive straight down a fairway but can't find the ball
    afterwards do you return to the tee and hit another?
    

    
    Yes, he would have to go back and re-hit from the position he was in
    and add a stroke, so if he hit his second shot over the green and the
    could not find the ball, he would go back and be hitting 4.  As for the
    ball down the middle not found, a lost ball is a lost ball.  If the 
    ground is wet and the embedded ball rule is in effect, then there could
    be a ruling that you saw the ball embed and then it would not be a lost 
    ball, otherwise it is.   

    
       The lost ball rule has always irked me.  It's fine for tournament
      play where there are marshalls and forecaddies that make it nearly
      impossible for players to lose their ball.  A lost ball is a rarity
      and you hardly ever see someone trudge back to the tee or wherever,
      to rehit.  
    
        But on public courses and in tournaments without caddies, marshalls
      and spotters you have just turned a 5.5 hour round into a 7 hour
      round.
    
        Lose a ball?  Drop another where you lost it and add two penalty
      strokes for your sanity and the sanity of the group behind you.
    
        Hit a ball where everyone in your group knows made the fairway
      and you can't find it  (There are idiots out there that play or
      pick up other player's balls all the time)?  Drop another without
      penalty and with the ok of other folks in your group. Again for 
      sanity sake.
      
        There, I said it.  Let the rules gods flog me.
    
    -rick
        

    
    Rick,
    
      I do agree with you, as it has happened to me many times.   I was
    just stating the rules.  How many times in the fall do you hit a drive
    down the middle only to have a leave cover it and you lose the ball.  I
    feel that if the entire foursome agrees that the ball was in play and
    should not be deemed lost, that you should be able to drop without
    penalty. As for haveing to walk back to the tee, if there is ever any
    doubt to finding the ball, hit a provisional!
    
    JIm

    re. last few replies.
    
    I think we may be in danger of losing the point.
    
    The original question related to a ball which may be OB or may be lost
    and, for this situation there is no doubt. You take a provisional and
    hope to find the original inside the OB marker - otherwise stroke and
    distance penalty as discussed. No loss of time. No hassle.
    
    The other question of ball lost on the fairway is also fairly
    straightforward. Sometimes there is a local rule to cover this (e.g.
    leaves on fairway). Sometimes it is covered in the official rules (e.g.
    ball lost in casual water or animal scrapings). Otherwise I suggest it
    depends on whether you are playing in the club championship or a
    Saturday morning 4-ball as to how you handle a ball which mysteriously
    disappears.
    
    Regards, Michael.
    

    
       Where we got lost Michael is for those frequent instances when you
       lose a ball and don't hit a provisional.  
    
    -rick

    If you lose a ball it is the same as going OB so the point becomes
    moot.  You have to rehit from the original spot with a stroke penalty
    
    
    Mike.
    

    
    I like your idea Rick, so next week when I hit a bad drive, i will
    call it lost and we all will agree that it should have gone 300
    yards down the middle, so I can drop there and go right??
    
    --Bob
    
    
    
    
    :-) :-)
    

     This poor dead horse has been beaten enough.  Check out topic 1080 and
    all the replies for an excellent debate on the merits (or lack of) on
    the OB/lost ball rule.  There are several other rules discussed in there
    as well.

     Bottom line for this golfer is that I'm a USGA rule breaker.  I do hit 
    provisionals whenever there is doubt, but for the times when there was no
    doubt, yet the ball still managed to get lost, I absolutely will not
    walk back to a tee and face a foursome from J & J's Autobody and Beer
    Drinking League, all with metal woods in their hands and snarls on their
    faces and who wouldn't know what a USGA rulebook was if it dropped on their
    heads. Violence on the golf course is not uncommon here in New England.

     I'll drop from the lost ball area and not look back thank you. 
    Fortunately for me, the league I play for has a wise rules committee
    overflowing with common sense, and have adopted the drop rule.
    
     We're playing you guys Bob?  Oh good, now I don't have to worry about
    you hitting one of your 300 yard drives into us.  8^) 
    
    -rick
     

    Good stuff Rick ! Common sense should prevail. One other rule I see
    screwed up all the time is hitting into a hazard. Guys gigure that the
    ball might be lost in the hazard, so they hit a provisional -
    blissfully unaware that once you hit the provisional under this
    particular circumstance - YOU OWN IT (even if the first ball is o.k.).
    Why don't they just go to the hazard in the first place ? Hell, if the
    ball is gone, you get to play your next shot from there anyway...
    
    --Jack

    
    I heard one that happened at the Digital Seniors this past Friday. On
    hole 10 which runs rught next to the driving range. One of the Seniors
    tees off and his ball lands right next to this spectator in the rough.
    Well this spectator thought the ball came from the driving range...so
    he picked it up and threw it in the driving range. It took 15 minutes
    to get a ruling. They let the golfer drop one where the guy thought the
    ball landed. Of course there wasn't a penalty stroke.
    
    Mike

>    I heard one that happened at the Digital Seniors this past Friday. 

     There was also a lady who must have thought she was at a Red Sox game.
     Rocky Thompson hits his ball up by the bleachers on 18.  She reaches out
     and picks it up!  On national TV no less...I'm glad I wasn't the marshall
     closest to either of those incidents.

	Larry

>     There was also a lady who must have thought she was at a Red Sox game.
>     Rocky Thompson hits his ball up by the bleachers on 18.  She reaches out
>     and picks it up!  On national TV no less...I'm glad I wasn't the marshall
>     closest to either of those incidents.


  After she picked up the ball, she realized what she did, and hid out in a 
porta-potty for about a half hour.


  

    re -.2
    
    A similar situation was brought up during last week's PGA tour event too. 
    But instead of someone picking up the ball, another pro accidently hit
    the ball of another player.  The difference was that in this case,
    since they could determine exactly the point where the ball came to
    rest (as indicated by the divot that was left), the player was able to
    "place" the ball back into position.  But with Rocky, since neither an
    official nor any of the marshalls could point to the exact spot where
    the ball came to rest, Rocky had to "drop" his ball into the rough in the
    general area.
    
    As much as I love the game, trying to remember all the rules and
    conditions that exist can get to be too much, and if I ever got to the
    point where I knew most of the rules and tried to apply them to me and
    my playing opponents, then I doubt the game would be as much fun.  In
    most cases, I let commonsense and consensus be my guide.
    
    Gary

    
    	re: --Jack
    
    	If I 'think' I hit a ball into a water hazzard, let's say from a
        par 3 hole. Your saying I can't hit another ball from the tee as
    	a provisional. Last I knew, you could hit your second ball anywhere
    	behind the hazzard, no closer to the pin.
    
    	Second part of my question. If I now find the ball (it didn't go
    	into the water), I cannot play that ball, because I hit a
        provisional? I must be missing something here.
    
    		Smitty

>    	If I 'think' I hit a ball into a water hazzard, let's say from a
>        par 3 hole. Your saying I can't hit another ball from the tee as
>    	a provisional. 

	Technically Jack is right.  The committee can institute a local
	rule for provisional balls for water hazards.  Provisional balls
	are only allowed for a couple situations...OB, Lost Ball...

	Not all the rules of golf make sense. ;-)

	Larry

    
    
    Why would you even want to hit a provisional ball if you hit into
    a hazard?  When you go into a hazard you drop behind where you went
    in which should be closer to the green than the tee area.
    
    

    Re:        <<< Note 41.312 by INDEV1::GSMITH "I need two of everything" >>>

>   	a provisional. Last I knew, you could hit your second ball anywhere
>   	behind the hazzard, no closer to the pin.

    I think  this  only  applies  if  it  is  NOT a lateral hazard.  On a
    lateral you must  drop within two club lengths of where it went in no
    closer to the hole. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.
    
    BTW, lateral hazards are supposed to be market with red stakes, other
    hazards with yellow ones.
    
    Tavo
    

 From the 1992 USGA Rules of Golf 

    Rule 26-1  "Ball in Water Hazard"

     If a ball lies in, touches or is lost in a water hazard (whether the ball
     lies in water or not), the player may UNDER PENALTY OF ONE STROKE:

       a.  Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the 
           original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5);

                        or

       b.  Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which
           the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard
           directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is
           dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the
           ball may be dropped.

                        or

       c.  (Lateral hazard only) Drop a ball outside the water hazard within
           two club-lengths of (1) the point where the original ball last
           crossed the margin of the water hazard or (2) a point on the 
           opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole...
 

          * Based on the definition of a lateral hazard, option b is not an
            option for dropping from a lateral hazard.


       So, don't restrict yourselves to always dropping two club lengths, as
      there are other options available to you that may be more helpful.
      Laura, closer to the hole is not always better.  In the heat of battle,
      I forgot the basics once this year, and it cost me (the team) in an
      early match.  I did the two club-length drop from a water hazard (not
      lateral) to the rough instead of bringing it all the way back to a nice
      fairway lie.  I hit it into the hazard again and ended up with a triple
      as opposed to a bogey or possible par.  Stooopid!  

       26-1c(2) is another rule that could really slow down play.  Ugh.

-rick

�    	Second part of my question. If I now find the ball (it didn't go
�    	into the water), I cannot play that ball, because I hit a
�        provisional? I must be missing something here.
    
The provisional ball does not become the ball in play until you play a shot
with it past the last known position of the original ball.

So, let's say you hit a driver to the 150 marker but it could be OB.  You
hit a provisional to the 140 marker.  You must locate the original ball before
you play the provisional.  If you play the provisional and then find the
original, you are stuck with the provisional.

However, let's say you hit a driver to the 150 marker that could be OB.  Your
provisional then only makes it to about 160 yards to the green.  You are allowed
to play it before looking for your ball.

The idea is that you keep playing your provisional until you hit is past the
position (or approximation thereof) of the original ball.  This is in there
to help speed up play (whoa, a rule that is written logically to speed up
play - film at 11 :-)).

Mike

    I guess we are all in agreement here. I just didn't understand the
    way it was stated. Basically, if I want to hit a provisional from
    the tee, it's all fine and legal. Sometimes, as somebody mentioned,
    it's advantageous to tee it up, rather than gain the extra distance
    and take a drop. (Especially if you ground one into a water hazzard
    ten yards away... ;^)
    
    'The provisional ball does not become the ball in play until you play a
    shotwith it past the last known position of the original ball.' 
    
    I agee.
    
    		Smitty
    

    Not if it goes into a hazard. The provisional is your ball in play
    regardless of its distance to your first shot and you are not able
    to play the ball if found in the hazard even if it is sitting pretty.
    There is some inquirey initiated by the USGA to allow a provisional
    to speed up play but current rules do not allow a provisional if
    for a ball hit into a hazzard.
    
    				Regards Phil

>    There is some inquirey initiated by the USGA to allow a provisional
>    to speed up play but current rules do not allow a provisional if
>    for a ball hit into a hazzard.
    
        The appendix to the rules recommends adoption of a local rule
        to allow the player to play the original "as it lies" if found
        in the hazard or to continue play with the provisional.  Again,
        in the spirit of speeding up play.  I'd quote it verbatim but
        left the book at home today.
    
    -rick

    
    re : Water Hazard
    
    It is a one shot penalty as long as you SEE the ball entering the
    water. If you don't actually see the ball entering the water you must
    take a 2 shot penalty. 

Re: -.1

>    re : Water Hazard
    
>    It is a one shot penalty as long as you SEE the ball entering the
>    water. If you don't actually see the ball entering the water you must
>    take a 2 shot penalty. 

    Or if there is reasonable evidence that the ball must be in the hazard.
    For example a pond in the middle of the fairway & no ball to be found
    in the fairway.  (Then again you can also take someone else's word that
    the ball went in the water.  ;-)  )

	Larry

Re: -.2

>    re : Water Hazard
    
>    It is a one shot penalty as long as you SEE the ball entering the
>    water. If you don't actually see the ball entering the water you must
>    take a 2 shot penalty. 

     Oopps, I totally forgot...There is no 2 stroke penalty!  The applicable
     rules are either ball lost in water hazard or the lost ball rule.  Both
     are at worst a one stroke & distance!  The only place Ive ever seen a
     two stoke penalty is in the Maynard Golf League...That's a local rule!

	Larry

    
    Can anyone tell me what the ruling should be for the following
    situtation?  This really happened!
    
    Player "A" hits his second shot on a Par 3 to about 5 feet from
    the pin.  Play "B" who is 30 yds away from the green hits his
    second shot onto the green, his ball hits the ball of player "A"
    and it rolls into the hole!
    
    What penalties of any are involved, and what happens to player A's
    ball?  Is he in in 2, or do you have to put his ball back?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Confused in VT.
    

    Player B incurs no penalty for hitting A's ball since he was off the
    putting surface. Player A must replace the ball. If player B's ball
    comes to rest in the spot that A's ball occupied, player B must putt
    first and then A can replace his ball and play.
    
    Rich

    If I'm not mistaken player A can incur a penalty if player B had
    requested player A to mark the ball and player A refused?

    Kevin,

    
    Thanks, we played it with no penalties and had Player A replace
    his ball.  Sounds like we did the right thing.
    
    Shane
    

    Kevin,
    
    In match play, player A must mark when requested by player B. I'm not
    sure that player A can refuse. If player A does refuse, that might be
    subject to disqualification.
    I think that in stroke play, you must mark, also. One note here, if you 
    are not on the putting surface, you are not allowed to clean the ball.
    
    Rich

    Walta,
    
    I was reading this note and realized that no one answered your .275.
    In searching for a lost ball the only person that can incur a penalty
    for moving a ball while searching for it is the player himself. In this
    case a two stroker (stroke play) or loss of hole (match play). I am
    sure that the player can take a drop from the imbedded lie, however, the 
    player can not clean the ball.
    
    
    p.s. How's the right hip? Still getting in the way?

Rules question:

I hit the ball OB, across a road, where it goes back in-bounds
on the next hole.  Can I play from there?  I'll have to hit
back across the road (OB) again.  For those in Colorado Springs,
this is on #2 at Gleneagle, with the ball ending up near the 3rd tee.

    
    re .330
    
    Nope, you went out of bounds. The white stakes mean "on the other side
    of this is real bad", not "on the other side of this, but this side
    of that hole".
    
    Several courses that Ihave seen have had things like this. 
    
    --Bob
    

    I would disagree.  If the ball comes to rest in bounds then it is in
    bounds regardless of how it got there.  Else, if you hit a ball close
    to out of bounds and it hits a rock or stick and goes back in bounds 
    it ?should be out of bounds because it touched the ground in bounds.
    
    Same as hitting a tree out of bounds and going back in bounds, it is
    playable.
    
    Unless there is a course rule or something specific in USGA.  Don't
    have the book, how is it worded?
    
    bb

   The key Bill is that it came to rest in bounds for an entirely different
   hole.  It was definitely OB for the hole that was being played.  

-rick

    This is why the PGA doesn't like to have in course out of bounds.
    
    Mike

     Mike, I think you mean the USGA - they started the "no in course OB"
    concept. They alter it on occasions, to protect players on parallel
    fairway holes, etc., but the concept is essentially as I mentioned
    above. The pGA might have picked up on it, but the USGA has been around
    longer, and has been operating thusly for as long as I can remember...
    
    __Jack

    Yea, USGA - that's the ticket.  I never get my golf organizations
    straight...
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    I saw a tape of a match this weekend between Byron Nelson and Gene
    Littler.  While putting from on the green, both players would
    occasionally leave the flagstick in unattended.  This indicated to me
    the ball could strike the flagstick while on the green.  Was this the
    case way back when?  If so, when was the new rule implemented?
    
    Dan

    If anyone can answer the last topic (by knowing old rules) perhaps they
    can explain what a stymie was?

     PL

    
    Hi PL,
    
    	A stymie was when player "A" putted first, and left his ball
    	short of the hole. Player "B" (being away) would then have to 
    	putt into the cup , somehow avoiding player "A's" ball.
    
    	They didn't mark their balls in the old days.
    
    	Walta

    i read some stuff on the stymie.
    apparently, stymied golfers would try and chip
    over the ball to get the hole. after a couple
    of 'divots' on the green, greenskeepers demanded
    that the golfers mark their balls on the green.
    
    black nicklaus
    

    I've also seen the Nelson-Littler match on TV. They played at Pine
    Valley. Nelson was near the end of his career and Littler was just a
    young pup. The ruling allowed the flag to remain in the hole unattended
    up until the late 50's early 60's. 
    
    The stymie rule was changed alot earlier. Probably in the 30's. Plyers
    would put the ball in a depression on the green and putt it. It would
    automatically pop up in the air. You can try it by placing the ball on
    the green and gently stepping on it. It will sit in a small depression
    and when putted will jump out of the hole. Chevy Chase did it in
    Caddyshack during the famous na..na..na..na..na sequence.
    
    Ken

    The first time I played golf with my wife (85) she watch me mark my
    ball on the green and said - don't they use chalk anymore.
    
    Apparently as a tad walking the course with her father crica 1959 they
    were doing just that - marking with chalk.
    
    This also may have not been the greenskeeper's favorite practice.

    Can anybody give me a quick answer to a rule question that may be basic
    but I don't have usga book at hand.
    
    If a struck ball hits the wooden blocks that hold up rope that is used
    to routed cars around the green can the player re hit with no penalty?
    
    These are of course man-made objects used for a valueable but non-golf
    purpose.
    
    There is a rule I have seen and it may be local to Green Meadow that if
    a ball hits a telephone wire it can be replayed.
    
    thanx
    

    
    It would have to be a local rule, I don't beleive the USGA has a rule
    for an instance like that.  
    
    Jim

    Thanks,  I will have to charge the stroke
    
    And in case I miss posting this where it belongs
    
    Greg Norman wins first Open

Re: .343

>    If a struck ball hits the wooden blocks that hold up rope that is used
>    to routed cars around the green can the player re hit with no penalty?
    
>    These are of course man-made objects used for a valueable but non-golf
>    purpose.

You get relief if such an object interfers with your stance or swing.  If
it's moveable you can move it.  If it's immovable you don't get relief if it's
in your intended path of play.  If you hit such an object you play the ball
where it comes to rest, counting the stroke.

Larry

    
    re .346
    
>.  If it's immovable you don't get relief if it's
>in your intended path of play.  If you hit such an object you play the ball
>where it comes to rest, counting the stroke.
    
    Are you sure about this. I may have brain fog (been that kind of day), 
    but I seem to recall one of the pros on TV asking for relief from a 
    tower that he believed was in his line of flight to the hole, about
    100 yards out. They didn't give it to him, but because they said
    it was not in his line of flight directly to the hole.
    
    I would imagine phone lines are the same thing. They are not part
    of the course and if they block you then you'd get reliefe. I know
    that Passaconoway has the "hit-again" rule if you hit one of
    the phone lines that goes through the place.
    
    --Bob
    

    i too have the telephone wire question.
    also, if my drive hits a goose, do i play it where it lies/lays?
    
    black nicklaus

    
>.  If it's immovable you don't get relief if it's
>in your intended path of play.  If you hit such an object you play the ball
>where it comes to rest, counting the stroke.
    
>>    Are you sure about this?

I'm positive.  From rule 24-2 "...Otherwise intervention on the line of play is
not, of itself, interference under this Rule."

Of course there can be local rules to cover this sort of situation.  The rules 
of golf propose a few.  With respect to wires their rule doesn't give relief
but if the shot hits a wire it can be replayed without penalty.  Other 
obstructions like temporary towers, tents, grandstands get relief.

Larry

re: .347

 Bob,
    Reply .346 is a good paraphrasing of the applicable Rule(s).

    As for the local rule for Passaconoway:  is that a local rule for
    the course or for your league?  In either case, it sounds like it
    would be appropriate if, and only if, the wires cross a fairway.
    If you have to hit a bad shot in order for the wires to "come into
    play"  (as with the TV tower you mentioned) then I believe it is
    your tough luck if you hit the wires.

      PL

    
    re: PCC local or league rule
    
    It is a course rule, the pro is the one who told us.
    
    Also as for relief or not, forgot to differentiate between temporary
    and permanent.
    
    as for hitting a bird, just mark down a "birdie" and keep going
    (no relief, no play over, do not pass go etc).
    
    --Bob
    

    one stupid question.
    if an animal picks up my ball and carries it
    down the fairway and drops it, do i get to
    play it there?
    
    wanted:  trained golf ball retriever ;-)

�    if an animal picks up my ball and carries it
�    down the fairway and drops it, do i get to
�    play it there?

I think the rules of golf actually provide for this.  I think the ruling
is something like you get to put the ball back as close as possible to the
original spot.  Even though it might be an advantage to have the dog advance
the ball up a fairway, think of what a mess it could be if the dog decided to
scoop up the ball (sitting 2 inches from the hole for birdie) and then
decide to bury it in the farthest greenside bunker ;-).

Mike

I just happened to have my 1992 Rule book handy :-)

About the dog moving the ball ...

I believe the dog is considered an "outside agency" in which case, the
dog moving the ball falls under rule 18 (Ball Moved, Deflected or Stopped)
specifically 18-1 (By outside agency).

	"If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, the player
	shall incur no penalty and the ball shall be replaced before
	the player plays another stroke."

Mike

    so .354 says if i hit a goose, i get to take the shot over,
    from the original spot, with no penalty.

    No, that would fall under rule 1.234 (Traveling animals) or rule 4.567
    (Airborne interference). Avoid the temptation to overrule both of these
    with the more compelling and universal application - rule 104.1 (Swine
    molestation).
    
    __Jack

    �so .354 says if i hit a goose, i get to take the shot over,
    �from the original spot, with no penalty.
    
    You could try, but that's not my interpretation.  The rules says "if the
    ball is moved by an outside agency ...".  I wouldn't consider an
    airborn shot that strikes a goose to have been moved by an outside
    agency.  If the goose got up and moved the ball, that's a different
    story...
    
    Also, don't take 18-1 out of context.  You really have to read all of
    rule 18 when talking about a ball that is moved.
    
    Mike

    
    It also  says, "ball at rest", in flight is not at rest.
    
    --Bob
    

    I need some help.  In the Seniors, when Raymond Floyd, hit from the
    drop area, it appeared that the ball went over the green and into the
    hazard.  He went to the point along the line, which was the closest
    point to entry of the hazard and dropped the ball.  My problem is that
    I interpretted that as "closer to the hole".  There is a distance from
    the hole to the point of entry into the hazard and in this case, any
    spot between the hazard and the hole, would be closer to the hole. 
    Would he not need to retreat along the line of flight until he got at
    least as far from the hole as the distance between the hole and the
    hazard?  I once was forced in a tournament to retreat a significant
    distance along the line of flight, because the concrete cart path from
    which I was entitled to relief forced any ball to be closer to the
    hole, until I retreated a significant distance.  Help me understand.
    
    Big Mac

    
    
    I hope it will make sense when I write it.
    
    He had two choices. 
    
    Keeping the point of entry between himself and the hole go back as
    far as he can and take relief. That would have put him on the other
    side of the pond.
    
    His second choice is, finding point of entry, go 2 club lengths, no
    closer to the hole, and drop. (If you take point of entry and "draw"
    a line parallel to the hole, you are still no closer, he then drops
    to either side of that point and he is "no closer")

    I was playing Overlook yesterday.  The ponds are about 1 foot higher
    than usual.  Infact, in many places there is a foot of water outside
    the hazard stakes.  Is my ball, which is outside the hazard stakes,
    but in the water in "casual water"?
    
    WCIII

    Re .361
    
    I played in a tournament which was played shortly after days of heavy
    rainfall.  This question was asked and we were told by the pro that if
    the pond/lake/river waters are touching the hazard line then it is
    considered to be part of the hazard.  Additionally if a puddle
    straddles an otherwise dry hazard, it is also considered to be part of
    the hazard.  I never checked on the rule myself to see whether that was
    just local/tournament rules or whether it is standard.
    
    								_Greg

    This situation came up when I was in Myrtle Beach.  Conveniently, the
    day before, we were in one of the many golf shops and got into a
    discussion with the manager of the store.  He was a rules trivia freak.  
    
    He said that this situation was coming up more and more because of the
    heavy rain. (this was last year's MB trip).   They checked with several
    pro's and the ruling is:
    
    The water outside the red line or the line between the red stakes is
    treated as casual water.  The hazard is defined by the stakes or the
    red line.  You get a free drop 1 club into the nearest playable relief.
    
    It was nice to know the rule when the situation came up the next day. 
    It saved a stroke and and hole.
    
    -jr

I've gotten a few different opinions on this one.
I hit a ball the other day that landed in a ditch and bounced
left and went into an iron pipe that ran under the cart path.
The cart path was built up over the ditch and had three 
drainage pipes running under it.  I was able to put in a 
club from the other side and pull it out.  
So, what's the rule: do I get penalized and if so by
how many?
John

I am wholly unfamiliar with the official rules of golf (and my book is at
home), however, are there not rules having to do with balls on cart paths?
Perhaps one of them might apply here. (My guess would be that you get a
free drop).

-Mark

    Re:  <<< Note 41.365 by KEPTIN::GRANOFF "Keptin! Klingon wessel decloaking..." >>>

    Due to  the cart path or pipe it's a man made obstruction and you get
    a free drop.
    
    Tavo