Conference napalm::musclecars

    re:.0,
    What engine/transmission option do you have?
    When were the spark plugs checked/changed last?
    Have you checked stuff like spark plug wires/cap/rotor?
    Is the alternator/battery/solenoid functioning properly?
    
    gary "whose_'78_stang_blew_a_fuel_line_last_week...."
    
    

Gary,

	Thanks for the reply.  I have a 302/c4 combination,  spark plugs have
been functioning for ~ 1 yr. as well as the wires/cap and rotor.  Battery et..
all work just fine.


I did figure out what the problem was.  I grounded the coil out and found that
it was only sparking when the ignition would be turned off.  This would only
happen once the engine was running at operating temperature for a period of 
about 10-15 minutes.  Turns out that the pickup coil in the distributor or
as the box says "stator" was bad.  Replaced it and were running again.


thanks again.

jerry

    	My sister-in-law has a re-starting problem also with her Mustang.
    
    	It's an '89 4 cyl w/ automatic trans. What happens is that the car
    	will run fine until she shuts it down. Then it won't even turn over
    	until 15-20 minutes of cool down when it will fire up and run until
    	it's turned off again.
    
    	The only thing I've noticed (but haven't verified yet), is that her
    	electric fan never seems to kick on. Can this be related? How can I
    	jump the fan to see if it indeed works?
    
    			Thanks in advance....    -John
                                                      

I'd think there was a heat-related short in the starter.  I would put the car
on a charging system tester, and moniter the starter draw (in amps) when the
engine is hot.  If it's drawing a lot more than ~120 amps, (like 300+), then
the starter is fried.

Most general service places have a charging/starting system tester.


steve

    
    If the engine wont turn over when hot, then there are 2 possibilities,
    it could be either or both added together which is preventing the
    engine from turning :
    The starter motor will not turn the engine because
    1. The starter motor does not have the power.
    	Poor battery, charging circuit, failing starter motor, loose
        chassis ground cable between engine/starter/chassis/battery,
        loose power cable from battery/starter solenoid to starter
    2. The engine is too stiff when hot.
        Faulty ring gear on flywheel, wrong oil in engine causing hydraulic 
        lifters to give excessive drag, overheating due to
        water airlock/blockage to radiator/poor fan/carb & timing out of tune
    
    ...Just a few thoughts...
    
    
    Tony

    Thanks for the replies guys......
    
    I believe that the car has a new Diehard, and had a charging/starting
    check when it was installed, but will verify.
    
    I'm still leaning myself towards this electric fan not kicking on,
    which causes the 'ole temp gauge to climb right up... thus no re-
    start until cooldown.
    
    What steps can I go through to verify the fan first of all works, and
    then backtrack through the sensors? I verified that the fuse is ok ;')
    
    	Thanks for the input......    -John

Z    2. The engine is too stiff when hot.
Z        Faulty ring gear on flywheel, wrong oil in engine causing hydraulic 
Z        lifters to give excessive drag, overheating due to
Z        water airlock/blockage to radiator/poor fan/carb & timing out of tune

HUH??????????????

Oil making the lifters drag?  Engine heat makes the flywheel faulty?

    
        I have had engines so damn hot that the exhaust manifolds were 
    glowing red-hot....and the starter motor still cranked them over.
    This sceanario is repeated every weekend at dragstrips across
    the United States. As a final word here, let me tell you just how hot.
    I never had a problem cranking over a 12.6:1 big block chevy even when
    the oil temperature was 315 degrees and the cooling system was opening
    a 18 LB. radiator cap.  Now thats M*^&(% H#$.  YES!
    
    -john

I agree.  I've had engines that were spewing coolant out everywhere when 
they overheated and boiled over and I was never presented with one that 
wouldn't spin over and eventually start so that I could get the coolant 
circulating to refill the system.

They sure ping a lot when they're hot but the usually fire right up.

    
    .3 was referring to a 4-cyl mustang. My experience of 4-cyls is that
    they are not overengineered to the degree that mighty V8's are. I think
    .3 was referring to an ordinary street car.
    
    I have a 4-cyl which overheated & would not turn until cool. The fault
    was an airlock in the cooling system. It would run & ping, but would
    not restart.
    
    A colleague has a Ford 302 which will not start when hot because the
    hydraulic lifters are still full of oil which means that the starter
    motor has to lift the valves over their full travel. When cold, the oil
    has bled down & the starter motor has less work to do. This is 
    probably only a European problem, as we dont always use the USA starter
    motors which no doubt produce a great deal more torque. Nevertheless it
    could highlight a marginal starter motor problem.
    
    Ring-gear ? Sorry, you're right, that one doesnt fit the symptom,
    my apologies.
    
    You can test the fan theory by wiring the fan via a fuse direct from
    the battery so the fan runs permanently.

    didn't a lot of the big blocks have hot start problems requiring
    a heat shield to be installed around the starter ??
    
    
    Brian V
    

    
>    I have a 4-cyl which overheated & would not turn until cool. The fault
>    was an airlock in the cooling system. It would run & ping, but would
>    not restart.

"turn"? or "fire up"?  Heat shouldn't prevent the crank from turning.  It 
WILL prevent the engine from starting quickly but it WILL spin over.  If 
the engine wouldn't spin, the starter was most likely binding or the field 
and armature were coming in contact with each other due to the above-normal 
heat AND worn armature bushings.  The bushings are worn almost far enough 
to cause problems all the time but are only causing problems when the 
starter swells.  Eventually, the engine won't spin over at all due to 
field/armature contact.
    
>    A colleague has a Ford 302 which will not start when hot because the
>    hydraulic lifters are still full of oil which means that the starter
>    motor has to lift the valves over their full travel. When cold, the oil
>    has bled down & the starter motor has less work to do. 

You have it backwards,  Hot oil isn't thick enough to keep the lifters 
pumped up so the valves don't open far enough.  Clicking lifters get louder 
as the oil thins out because the oil viscosity isn't high enough to keep 
the lifters at the proper length.

Worn lifters that are left to sit overnight will bleed down, too, if the 
engine was put away with the oil hot.  Again, the valves won't open far 
enough.

Cold oil will hold a lifter up better but not until AFTER the engine fires 
up.

The only way the lifter can hold the valve open, especially on a worn out 
engine, is if the valve lash is adjusted too tight in the first place.

    Well,
    
    That was the prognosis as delivered to me. Now, lets get to the facts.
    This 302 uses a starter from a Ford Essex 3.0 litre V6. When I
    mentioned the Heat shield theory from -.2 this was tried. The shield
    was placed between the starter & the exhaust manifold. Cold air was
    ducted to the starter. The hot-start problem was then cured.
    
    Tony.