Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    What happens when you try to play in the street with a pygmy amp?
    say, just for example, in kendal square? (surrounded by 3 large
    buildings aobut 200 feet apart, and a street on one side?
    Tom

	The only thing that doesn't go thru the PA is my 6 string/4 string
	double necked guitar. Running out of channels is the main problem.
	Setting the MIX generally isn't as it's handled via CC7 from the
	sequencer. I marked the starting levels setting on the mixer & we
	tweek (for the room) from the default settings. I've thought of
	bringing the BASS into it's own amplifier, but so far we have not
	had any problems in rooms up to 100 ft by 400 ft deep, or outside
	(unless it's windy). I still have about 50 cables to connect (even
	with 2 pre-wired racks), so I don't need more stuff to keep track
	of. It might be easier for you if you don't allow as many MIDI
	controllers (I have a total of 4 merges in various places in my
	network) as I do. If you have only 1 MIDI controller, things are
	lots simpler. 2 have the ability to send CC7 to everything (and
	they do). Once we get our mix right, the normal 1st set tweeks
	get us thru the night/week without further adjustments.

	I'd like to go sterio, however. This is a goal for the summer.

								Jens

    
    Re: .0
    
    Ram, I don't understand what you gain by the KB-300s (unless, of
    course, you already owned them,  and weren't interested in
    selling/trading them in).  If you instead bought some extra speakers
    and power amps (you already have a second mixer, so you could chain
    them) you could have a larger PA which would handle the extra load of
    the instruments.   I don't see where the requirements for the
    instrument and vocal reproduction are much different except the
    instrument stuff needs more low bass.  
    
    FWIW, the components in the KB-300 speaker cab are identical to what
    Peavey loads into their 115H PA cab (although the KB has a larger
    volume, maybe better low bass).
    
    
    						Brian

	I have done a few shows with my MIDI band (sequenced drums, bass, 
strings, brass, misc. synth while I sing and play piano/guitar).  I've always
run everything into the PA.  The only exception I might make in the future is
if I play electric guitar, but for now I'm only playing acoustic.  Its always
sounded fine (or so they tell me anyway...).

	I will soon be trying out my new three-way speaker system, and I'm
real interested in finding out if it works out.  It features a cab for
mid/highs and a bass cab (12" SRO) on each side of the stage.  From what people
tell me, I'll probably want to add a bigger bass cab (15" driver) under these
but that will remain to be seen.  It sounds fine in my basement, though!

	Dan

 My set up is quite simple. 8x8 or 12x2 mixer into
 a stereo power amp. Everything goes thru the mixer.
 Synth, vocals, Guitars.

 Sequenced stuff (mt32) uses two channels, panned
 full stereo. I usually midi-wize-pan the midi bass 
 tracks 60-80% to one side. This keeps a strong bass-ey
 line from interfereing with more subtile sounds,
 such as vocals, and guitars.

 I send from the effects channel of my guitar amp
 to a PA channel, and use the guitar amp as a
 stage monitor, with about 60% guitar amp,
 and 40% PA mix. From time to time, use two PA
 channels to mix the guitar in stereo (with effects),
 but mostly I'm mono.
 
 I spend a lot of time setting up the mix of the sequenced
 via midi control changed. For the sequenced parts, 
 I try to avoid using anything than a neutral PA EQ, and
 standard gain.

 My sequenced songs are all mixed in SET disks.
 I make sure that each song in a SET disk drives
 at about the same levels, and requires about the same
 EQ. That way, I never get suprised by an extra hot
 sequence clipping the mixer or amp. It is a compromise,
 and I acheive predictability and consistancy at the
 expense of losing the optimum mix for any given song.
 This also saves me from constant manipulation of the
 mixer.

 I've tried my sequences on other, more elaborate
 PA set-ups. Some times they sound better, sometimes
 worse.

 I like to have some stereo effect. It makes it much easier to
 get a good mix, especially if you are not bi-amped.
 I realize that there are problems with this, but it seems
 to solve more than it creates for me.

 I find that the biggest problem in the sequenced stuff is
 on the low end. It is hard to get a punchy bass, and kick, without
 interfereing with the other parts. When I get some spare cash,
 I think that I would try Bi-amping to solve this problem.

 And then, probably a spectrum analyzer, 32 band EQ, Bose 802's
 etc... etc.. ad infinitum...

Rick

    I'm currently the 3rd person in a MIDI-duo (don't ask!). During a
    recent 'competitive analysis' session (read: "Let's go check out this
    band...") one of the things that struck me was that a MIDI system run
    entirely thru the PA sounds like a stereo. Maybe a good stereo, maybe
    even a GREAT stereo, but it doesn't sound live. Two point sources with
    60/40 panning doesn't fool me. Part of the 'live' sound is due to more
    than L/R panning. A soundstage exists in *3* dimensions. Cymbals are
    higher than bass drums. The bass is behind the guitar, the horn player
    is under the keyboards. Whatever. Even when using a sound-reinforcement
    system, you still get real stage noise. Some sounds get 3 direct paths
    to your ears. The source, and 2 PA speakers. That doesn't even take
    ambiant reflections into consideration.
    
    I think the 'ultimate' in MIDI-band amplification would be to treat
    many of the sources seperately. Send a stereo pair to a seperate set
    of drum speakers. Bass absolutely goes to a bass amp and a couple of
    15"s. A mic'd up leslie would be nice! THEN everything gets mic'd and
    sent to the board. Just like a real band!!
    
    I often send my bass out a monitor send to my Ampeg, even at home. 
    
    Edd

>    Ram, I don't understand what you gain by the KB-300s (unless, of
>    course, you already owned them,  and weren't interested in
>    selling/trading them in).  If you instead bought some extra speakers
>    and power amps (you already have a second mixer, so you could chain
>    them) you could have a larger PA which would handle the extra load of
>    the instruments.   I don't see where the requirements for the
>    instrument and vocal reproduction are much different except the
>    instrument stuff needs more low bass.  
    
    Yeah, that's what I've been wondering. As a matter of fact, we did
    already own them, but that's neither here nor there. I figured most
    people are just running everything through the PA, but that approach
    bothers me for two reasons. First of all, as I suggested before (and
    some others have mentioned) it seems to me that running the bass and
    drums through the same amp/speakers as the vocals is going to result in
    a loss of clarity in the vocals. I don't have any really "scientific"
    reason to think this, in fact if the PA speakers are good hi-fi
    speakers they should deliver clarity across the full spectrum. But my
    intuition says they won't, that they'll favor the sounds with higher
    transients, like the bass and drums, and the vocals will tend to get
    lost.
    
    A second reason is that this group is a real "MIDI band". That is,
    almost everything except my guitar is sequenced. I want to have at
    least the feeling of a group *behind* me. The PA speakers, by
    definition (to avoid feedback) are out front, facing the audience. Of
    course if you ran the sequences through the vocal PA you could hear
    them through the vocal monitors, but it would feel the same (and again,
    I worry that it would muddy up the vocal monitors).
    
    I guess a final reason is another one that has been mentioned, the fact
    that we are using sequenced bass lines, and I doubt the ability of the
    PA to do them justice. Would you want to use your PA as a bass amp
    (don't answer that Brian - I'm sure you wouldn't want to use a KB-300
    as a bass amp either)?
    
    I'm just checking around to see what other people are doing. I suspect
    the bottom line is the more money we put into the PA the less likely we
    are to have problems running everything through it. Maybe after we
    start working more regularly (and my back starts to give out from
    hauling the Peavey's around) I'll consider that.
    
    By the way, on the subject of live mixing: The stereo mixer I'm using
    for my synths has a built in graphic eq. As most of the replies have
    suggested, I do my main mixing and balancing via MIDI control in the
    sequences. I don't really use the stereo panning live except to split
    out the left and right channels. And I generally don't fool with the
    levels or eq much either, once I get them set for the room. But I just
    feel more comfortable having the controls at my fingertips so I can
    tweak things if necessary. This is probably more of a psychological
    thing than anything else. As someone mentioned (and I agree), it's
    generally better to make some compromises on the sound quality and keep
    things as simple as possible.
    
    - Ram

               <<< Note 2286.6 by WEFXEM::COTE "Bain Dramaged" >>>
                             -< Live .ne. stereo >-

>    one of the things that struck me was that a MIDI system run
>    entirely thru the PA sounds like a stereo. Maybe a good stereo, maybe
>    even a GREAT stereo, but it doesn't sound live.
    
    Yeah, Edd, that's part of what I'm getting at. I feel like if I'm
    listening to everything through the PA speakers some of the "live"
    effect is lost. You've mentioned a number of things that contribute to
    that effect.
        
>    I think the 'ultimate' in MIDI-band amplification would be to treat
>    many of the sources seperately. 
    
    I agree, that would be the ultimate. But who's going to carry it and
    set it up? One of the advantages and disadvantages of going MIDI is
    having less people to contend with. If there's less equipment as well
    it's not so bad. But who wants 2-4 people to have to lug around enough
    equipment to reproduce the sound of a 10-piece ensemble? 
    
    I guess I'm looking for a practical balance between the "ideal" and the
    "efficient".
    
    - Ram

    I think a 'practical' balance would be a REAL bass amp and a stereo
    drum pair. This would put your rhythm section behind you where you
    expect them. If possible, a keyboard monitor would be next on the list,
    dedicated to piano and organ.
    
    ...after that you run into size/weight vs. portability issues....
    
    Edd

    If your board has extra monitor or effects send busses, you could
    use them to drive the KB300's behind you.   Then you could experiment
    with what combination of instrumental voices behind/beside you
    feels live, in addition to using the front P.A. cabs, and the front
    vocal monitors.  You might find some interesting psycho/acoustical
    effects.  The next step, to get fancy, would be to add some digital
    delay as well, to increase the apparrent depth.  Sounds like a fun
    rainy day or dead gig project...............................Jon.....

Hey, some good discussion here. I can't disagree with
anything that has been said. I would like to acheive
the "feel" of a real band behind me as well. And,
I suppose that one way to get closer to that is
to have a variety of dedicated speaker and amplification
set-ups.

But as Ram said, "who's gonna carry all of that stuff."
And how do you level and EQ it all for a room? You run right 
back into the old 60's syndrome where each instrument
had discrete amplification, and it was was uncontrollable. 
That is one of the reasons that today most pro's run everything 
thru the PA. (monitors should be no less controlable)

My goal in using midi was to eliminate complexity. Large 
numbers of musicians are tough to keep organized. Two many
discrtete amps/speakers  can be just as confusing, especially 
since you may not have as many human hands to dynamically 
control them, or move them from place to place.

I think that the major difference in sequenced music
and what you hear on your home stereo is dynamics. Dynamics is
the MORE important in acheiving a "live" band feel, 
than positional (3 dimensional or even stereo) simulation.
If dimensional information was so important, then why
did quadraphonic die such a nasty death, and why are CD's
so popular?

I think that you can improve dymanics by by-amping( or tri-amping), 
good speaker and crossover selection, and EQ'ing to a room
using a spectrum analyzer. That approach makes much more sense
to me than investing in lots of special purpose amps/speakers dedicated 
systems for drums etc. It would be more controllable, and probably more
portable.

Now, I suppose that if you already have a bass amp, that it would
be reasonable to send the base sequence there. That might make
a "synth" bass sound more realistic, and it might clean up
an overburdened PA. I doubt if the position of the amp will
make much difference. Bass frequencies are pretty non-directional.
But, other than using a bass amp, I'd lean toward improving the basic 
capabilities of the PA.

I don't know who said it, but this quote made sense to me.

	"When you are in the studio, you want to sound like you
	 are live, and when you are live, you want to sound like
	 you are in the studio".

Rick

    Hey guys, advice again.
    
    I'm getting a 16 piece electronic pad set for use with an R-5.  I need
    some suggestions for an amplifier (head & cab).  I won't be gigging for
    a while, and even then it will be small2 (clubs, etc.).  So far, I've
    asked about the Peavey KB300 (3 channel 130W, about $350 used) and the
    Crate **80 (3 channel 80W, $318 new at Victor Litz).  
    	
    Seeing as how I have limited $$ (max I want to spend is $350), can
    someone compare these two or suggest others I could look into?  I
    really have no clue about amps.
    
    Mike

    I've used the Peavey KB-300 for amplifying sequences. The cabinet is
    solid and it has decent tone. The reverb is very noisy (a not uncommon
    problem). My major concern for amplifying drums would be the built in
    compression circuit. There's no way to bypass it, and I don't like the
    way it clips when things overload. But it's still pretty good sound for
    the money.
    
    - Ram

    While I'm not sure I agree (or possibly understand?) Ram's concern
    over the Peavy DDT circuitry, I agree with his basic premise. You want
    to avoid clipping, which is a definite possibility with transient heavy
    inputs like drum machines.
    
    My last band used Peavy CS-800s to power (among other things) the
    HR16 we used for drums. They handled it effortlessly but are likely
    to run more than your budget, especially since they are only amps
    and don't include any drivers...
    
    Edd

    
    Too bad you're in DC. There's a single Peavey SP2 in the wantads up
    here for $175. That leaves you $175 for a decent used amp head to drive
    it with. A small SR speaker will be more efficient and should sound
    better than a small self contained amp. Surely it can handle more
    power. And a modular setup is easier to carry and is more flexible if
    you decide to upgrade.
    
    Just another way of looking at it.
    
    CdH
    

    I was able to pick up a >mint< Peavey ED300  for my setup (PM16 & HR16)
    for only $275.00  It's not bad for a combo amp.    It appears to me to
    be about the same caliber amp as the KB300, but it's got a channel with
    a "snare-oriented" eq (i.e. more treble emphasis).   Oh yeah: I think
    Peavey discontinued this one, but they're really reliable and
    straightforward (repair-wise).

    I like the compression circuitry on it and it's got enough patch points
    and monitor sends to do anything I need, although the drum kits do
    sound *much* better with a stereo rig

    I *did* however yank some wheels off an old PDP rack and bolt them to
    the bottom fo the cab for mobility (I nearly broke my back moving the
    thing upstairs when I got it.)   If you decide to get a combo amp,
    wheels can be a real bonus..

    /doug