Conference napalm::commusic_v1

RE < Note 2265.0 by SALSA::MOELLER "I know-let's speed up the Blues!" >

>    What could I do to get that real jet-plane
>    whoooooosh caused by tape flanging ?

	Er, use a flanger?

    I came across that same trick accidentally years ago with my ESQ.
    
    If I had enough mixer channels I might use that pretty regularly
    because it really does fatten up the sound.
    
    The idea of this note is great.  Here's a few tricks I've either
    figured out or learned by watching a pro in a real recording studio.
    
    1) One thing I find somewhat annoying on many Commusic submissions is
       that just before a song starts you hear the increase in the
       noise level.  This comes from starting the recording on the 
       mastering deck a few seconds before the song actually starts.
    
       It's not very disturbing, but it sort of gives it an amateurish
       "mark" that can be easily avoided.
    
       It's very simple.  What I do is I start every tune with a 2 bar
       countoff (usually a click, or a drum machine "side stick" hit).
       But instead of having clicks on every quarter note of the countoff:
    
    		1   2  3  4  5  6  7  8
    
       I leave the last two off:
    
    		1   2   3   4   5  6   _   _
    
    I start the mastering deck up but MUTE it.  Then I crank up the
    sequence/multi-track/whatever and listen for the countoff.  I count
    along in my head and un-mute the mastering deck a split second before
    the first note of the song.
    
    If your mastering deck doesn't have a mute, you can accomplish the
    same thing a variety of other ways.  For example, use the master
    volume slider(s) on your mixer.
    
    2) I've mentioned this one before.  I sortof thought it was what
       everyone did when using tape-sync but came to find out that at
       least two very "MIDI hip" COMMUSIC types hadn't thought of this
       so this is a good place to put it.
    
    Most FSK tape sync units have the problem that you always have to
    start the song at the beginning if you want to be able to hear
    the sync'ed stuff while you are recording live tracks to tape.
    
    That's a pain if you're trying to record a guitar solo in the middle
    of the song but are forced to listen to the first two verses and
    choruses before the solo.   It also makes it harder to be able to
    try multiple takes because each take requires so much time.
    
    What I figured out to do, was to record a quick reference mix of
    the sequenced stuff onto a free track.  That way you don't have
    to use the sequencer at all to hear the sequence stuff.
    
    Now if you only have a 4-track, you can only do two tracks that way
    because the 1 track is for the FSK tone, and 1 track is tied up
    with this "reference" track.
    
    However, in my experience there's usually one part that lends itself
    to recording straight through the song and doesn't require many
    re-takes.  You just do that track last.
    
    I'll type some more tricks in when I have some time, but I'd certainly
    like to hear some neat tips that other people have come across.
    
    	db
    a free track

    
    Re: flanging without a flanger
    
    For once a dj will teach a musician something 8^)
    
    I do this with records all the time, it's the same principle. What I
    think is happening, Karl, is you're slowing it down too much by
    pressing too hard on the source reel. If you press too hard too fast
    the flange will 'whoosh' right by and you'll miss it. Then your two
    inputs will be off a fraction of a beat and you'll get doubling of
    percussion parts.
    
    This is a subtle but powerful effect. Try just touching the reel
    lightly, then gradually and slowly increasing pressure until the 
    music sounds like it's being played in a cave. That's the start of 
    the flange. Keep holding onto the reel and the flange should slowly
    build until it starts 'spinning around'. It takes practice to get
    the proper feel, and it's even harder to repeat the same effect
    exactly.
    
    Have fun!!
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    re .3 re .whatever - seems to me this is the sort of thing digital
    delays are ideal for...
    
    len.
    

    I flange the drums on my HR16 by assigning the exact same voice and
    tuning arguments to two pads. When I want a non-flanged sound I use
    only one. On those beats where I want the effect, I copy the
    appropriate beats to the second pad. Makes for some wild sounds...
    
    Edd

    I used to love to play my flute into a mike into the input of my sound 
    on sound tape recorder while monitoring the tape output. Made a 
    wonderful delay.
    
    
    POOR MAN's MIDI DELAY
    	There was one other "trick" that I stumbled upon once. I had a
    Roland TR505 (?) drum synth. I programmed a drum pattern into it, then
    "recorded" it into the sequencer of my ESQ-1 using the TR505's clock.
    Then I reversed the clock and synced the TR505 to the ESQ-1 and played
    it. 
    	The ESQ was then sending the same drum pattern that was sequenced
    to the TR505 which, now that it was synced to the ESQ-1, was playing
    the same pattern on top of the ESQ pattern. (Does this make sense???)
    	The result was a slight delay between the ESQ-1 sequence and the
    TR505 pattern. The sound made for much "fatter" percussion.
    	This trick should work with any two sequencers, and for more than
    just percussion parts. If you can "bounce" the sequence/pattern around
    from sequencer to sequencer you may increase the delay still further. I
    did this by doing the above steps, then set a different track on the
    ESQ-1 to record the data from the TR505 when it was synced to the
    ESQ-1. (I now had two tracks of percussion plus the TR505 pattern, all
    slightly delayed from each other.) 
    
    	regards,
    	Mark

re .2 

If you use a stereo noise gate during mastering, with the threshold set real 
low it will knock out the noise before and after the songs.  Also it's almost
a must if you want to end on a "fade" without hearing the noise pile up.

							-Jeff

    I thought all this was done with a splice?
    
    Richard.

    
    
    RE-1  Actually I have a set of Roland Razor blades standing by for this
    very purpose. 
    
    	Old dogs, 
    	New tricks, 
    	Splice is the Variety of life.
    
    I wonder how many splices you get from a razor blade. If the blurb says
    200 and I only get 187 could we have an argument about it ?
    
    I prefer Yamaha blades normally but sometimes you have to stoop !
    
    
    				Bored of Leeds !

    I don't want to rathole this topic, of course, but when Roland say 
    their splicing blades are good for 200 splices, they're in fact talking
    about quarter-inch tape. You use cassettes, and you get more; use
    half-inch tape you only get 100+.
    
    Personally, I use Wilkinson Sword. Even after 200 splices you can still
    get a good shave off 'em.
    
    Richard.

    Re -1
    
    But If I use them for pencils as well as splices those are still
    counted as cuts. So really Roland are transgressing the trade
    descriptions act. And as for wilkinson and the everlasting blade. You
    don't really beleive that do you ?
    
    					Paul.

    Perhaps it's time for an instructional video tape - "Samurai Splice
    Shop".  As a serious aside though, for those of us who still practice
    the ancient art, don't forget to demagnetize the blade, especially
    before sessions when attempting critical content arranging.  Magnetized
    blades can cause pops and glitches that are haunting during repeated
    playbacks or search and destroy excercises.................Jon.........

    I was blown away by Peter Gabriel's "so" album, and was listening to
    "Fallen Angel" from Robbie Robertson's album, where he and Peter
    co-produced.  Last weekend I was listening to the odd percussion in
    that piece.
    
    Later the same weekend I was adding some random percussion [toms,
    hihat, claps/ticks/etc.] to a piece recorded-to-clicktrack in
    Performer.  The percussion was 'normal', in that it was on-beat.
    
    On a whim I copied the track, muted the original, and pasted the copy
    to another track, OFFSETTING IT 1/2 BEAT. That is, on the 'and' of
    1+2+3+4+.
    
    Guess what ?  Instant Peter Gabriel percussion !  I then enhanced it a
    bit by adding some bits to another track that really DID hit on the
    beat.
    
    karl

    RE: .13
       Do you mean you had two tracks playing, 1 normal and 1 1/2 off?
       Or did you just use the 1/2 off track with a few 'enhancements'
       on normal timed track?
    Thanks,
    Tim

    Karl, I had my portable CD in my car just last night (hooked up via
    the cassette recorder) and was still (to use your words) blown away
    by Gabriel.

    Guess what I'll be trying out this weekend ?

    Thanks for the hint ....

    Zayed

    P.S. I once saw a suggestion to hook into your mixer your favorite
    CD and try to switch back and forth between that and a peice that
    you are trying to mix listening to how instruments stand out, reverb,
    frequencies and so on and to try and approximate the "sound" you are
    hearing (CD). I've tried this with mixed results. May have even
    read this in COMMUSIC somewhere :-)

    In terms of imitating recordings, I made a reverb that resembled what I
    could hear on Laurie Anderson's United States live at BAM album
    I should have used that instead of the theatrical reverb I use for
    making tv sound like a movie.
    Tom

                     <<< Note 2265.14 by SMURF::NEWHOUSE >>>
>    RE: .13
>       Do you mean you had two tracks playing, 1 normal and 1 1/2 off?
    
>       Or did you just use the 1/2 off track with a few 'enhancements'
>       on normal timed track?
    
    Option two.  Deleted the original track.
    
    karl

    OK, here's the setup :  recorded an EMAX MIDI lead guitar track into
    Performer.  The tone of the lead needs some help.  I tried running it
    into my Ibanez Multi-Effects unit, playing with EQ, compression, tight
    delay, and stereo phase.  Sounded better, but in a nutshell it needs
    more distortion.  I was considering a couple of options :
    
    A) pre-amping it to the max before xferring it to one or two tracks on
    the FOSTEX 8-track - getting tape distortion.  Haven't tried it yet.
    Opinions ?
    
    B) I have two different friends with Scholz Rockmans (-men?).  I could
    run a mono out of the EMAX to the Rockman input, stereo outs to tape.
    Question - as the EMAX is putting out line level, do I have to shrink
    its volume before connecting it to the Rockman ?  If I remember the
    Rockman has two distortion settings and a nice stereo phase
    (reminiscent of the Roland stereo chorus).  Any comments on this one ?
    
    thanks.  karl
    
    BTW, EDD, the lead guitar was added to an additional verse on my
    arrangement of McLaughlin's Lila's Dance.  NOW it goes somewhere...

        re .13 - Two of my most favorite albums, and i've always
        explained to my wife that the percusion was most likely midi,
        somehow!  Goody, goody, hear comes some arguments towards
        new toys! Thx karl....
        
                bob

>       <<< Note 2265.18 by SALSA::MOELLER "Can you say 'filesystem' ?" >>>
>    OK, here's the setup :  recorded an EMAX MIDI lead guitar track into
>    Performer.  The tone of the lead needs some help.  
    
>I could run a mono out of the EMAX to the Rockman input, stereo outs to tape.
>    Question - as the EMAX is putting out line level, do I have to shrink
>    its volume before connecting it to the Rockman ?  
    
    YES !  I used one of my famous line-to-mic level attenuator cords from
    the EMAX to the Rockman.  
    
    >If I remember the Rockman has two distortion settings and a nice 
    >stereo phase
    
    YES !  The unit has FOUR distortion settings - Clean 1, 2, Edge, and
    Distortion.  No, the Edge setting didn't make the piece sound like U2.
    
    The Distortion setting (not surprisingly) preamped the output volume to
    the point where it was up at line level - so I just ran the Rockman's
    stereo outs into line inputs on the mixer.  Instant grunge !  It did
    not seem to add a lot of hiss to the track, either.  During mixdown I
    did leave the faders down on that track until it was needed.
    
    As I haven't given the Rockman back yet, tonight I'm going to try one
    more experiment - record a MONO distortion track on the 8track, then
    use THAT as input to the Rockman, and record a stereo, doubly-distorted
    version.
    
    Think I'll buy one as another effect.  Hey, Jan Hammer has one..
    
    karl

    Two new tricks.
    
    ONE: Got an 8-track synced to sequencer with FSK.  Plenty of free
    analog tracks.  Got a percussively melodic lead line recorded into the
    sequencer.  Play around with a delay unit (MIDIfex) and find a
    pleasingly syncopated echo setting.  Set up to record the 'wet' stereo
    panned echo signal ONLY (no original signal) to two tracks on the
    8-track.  Just before I recorded the analog tracks, I temporarily CHANGED 
    the original melody line's timbre from strings to horns.  I recorded the 
    horn stereo echo tracks on 8-track, rewound, and reset the MIDI lead patch
    back to the original strings.
    
    Now I have a percussive strings melody with stereo panned syncopated
    HORN echoes on separate tracks !  
    
    TWO: Got an EMAX sample preset, Fairlight voices 2, which uses an LFO
    to pan lazily between L&R.  This trick takes 2 or 4 tracks on the
    8-track.  I recorded a MIDI track on the sequencer, and then, using FSK
    sync, transferred the stereo Fairlight Voices 2 to two channels on the
    8-track.  I then reversed the channel pans and recorded the same part
    again on two more tracks on the 8-track.  (or could have final mixed to 
    stereo with the last tracks direct from the sequencer).   this makes a 
    wonderful sweeping stereo signal, with the two tracks passing each
    other.       Left                     Right
                   1                         2
                    1                       2
                      1                   2
                           1       2
                               12
                            2     1
                        2              1
                      2                  1
                    2                       1           ETC.
                   2                         1
                   2                         1
                    2                       1
    The tracks are heard as separate entities due to slight timing delays
    due to the FSK/MIDI transmission rate, or maybe the 8-track drifts.. 
    
    karl

I haven't played with my 4 track deck in a while, but here's
a trick I used to use occasionally. Four tracks ain't much,
so you end up mixing down and rerecording tracks a lot (I
think that's called bouncing tracks?). Every time you bounce
a track, you add a recording generation to the older tracks,
which means noise, distortion, and shifts in the frequency
equalization. You can use the simul-sync to monitor the
other tracks, as you lay down a new track, but when you
bounce, you really want to use the good playback head, so
you introduce a delay. So some things are delayed, some
aren't, and if you bounce a few times, you can end up with a
mess of tracks you can't mix down, because they're delayed
different amounts. 

The delay issue is easy to deal with if you have a deck with
a single record/playback head, but that's not what my TEAC
deck is like. 

I found it really useful to chart out how I was going to
record something before I started, to avoid painting myself
into a corner. (Of course, that doesn't always work, since
usually you change your mind about the song you're taping
along the way...) But in theory anyway... 
    
    
note: lower case is first generation, upper case is second generation
      . means there is a record-head to playback-head delay

TRACK	TRACK	TRACK	TRACK 
  1	  2	  3	  4
--------------------------------
t				 record a click track on track 1
--------------------------------
t	a			 monitor track 1 (simul-sync)
				 record part a on track 2
--------------------------------
t	a	b		 monitor tracks 1,2 (simul-sync)
				 record part b on track 3
--------------------------------
t	a	b	c	 monitor tracks 1,2,3 (simul-sync)
				 record part c on track 4
--------------------------------
.ABCd				 mix tracks 2,3,4 (no sync) and live part d,
				 monitor mix and record mix on track 1
--------------------------------
.ABCd	.e			 monitor track 1 (simul-sync)
				 record part e on track 2
--------------------------------
.ABCd	.e	.f		 monitor tracks 1,2 (simul-sync)
				 record part f on track 3
--------------------------------
.ABCd	.e	.f	..EFg	 monitor tracks 1,2,3 (no sync)
				 mix tracks 2,3 and live part g,
				 record mix on track 4
--------------------------------
.ABCd	..h		..EFg	 monitor track 4 (simul-sync)
				 record part h on track 2
--------------------------------
.ABCd		..Hi	..EFg	 monitor tracks 1,4 (no sync)
				 monitor track 2 (simul-sync)
				 mix tracks 2,4 and live part i,
				 record mix on track 3
--------------------------------
.ABCd	..j	..Hi	..EFg	 monitor tracks 3,4 (simul-sync)
				 record part j on track 2
--------------------------------
				 play back track 1 (no sync)
				 play back track 2,3,4 (simul-sync)

This lets you record 10 parts and no part is copied more
than once, so generation noise is minimal.

Notice that part h is bounced in (simul-sync) instead of (no sync), so
the fidelity of that one bounce is not-so-good. Alternatively, part h
could be some effects that need not be precisely in time...

But - parts b,c,d are out of sync! So this doesn't really work well.
The final master tape can't be played in all (no sync) mode.

NOW FOR THE TRICK.

This chart is very similar to the previous one.

TRACK	TRACK	TRACK	TRACK 
  1	  2	  3	  4
--------------------------------
t				 record a click track on track 1
--------------------------------
t	a			 monitor track 1 (simul-sync)
				 record part a on track 2
--------------------------------
t	a	b		 monitor tracks 1,2 (simul-sync)
				 record part b on track 3
--------------------------------
t	a	b	c	 monitor tracks 1,2,3 (simul-sync)
				 record part c on track 4
--------------------------------
.ABCd				 mix tracks 2,3,4 (no sync) and live part d,
				 monitor mix and record mix on track 1
--------------------------------
.ABCd			ABCd	 TRICK - we make a copy of track 1 purely
				 for the purpose of monitoring for timing,
				 we record over it later
--------------------------------
.ABCd	e		ABCd	 monitor track 4 (simul-sync)
				 record part e on track 2
--------------------------------
.ABCd	e	f	ABCd	 monitor tracks 2,4 (simul-sync)
				 record part f on track 3
--------------------------------
.ABCd	e	f	.EFg	 monitor tracks 2,3 (no sync)
				 you can't listen to ABCd this time
				 mix tracks 2,3 and live part g,
				 record mix on track 4
--------------------------------
.ABCd	.h		.EFg	 monitor track 1,4 (simul-sync)
				 record part h on track 2
--------------------------------
.ABCd		.Hi	.EFg	 monitor tracks 1,4 (no sync)
				 monitor track 2 (simul-sync)
				 mix tracks 2,4 and live part i,
				 record mix on track 3
--------------------------------
.ABCd	.j	.Hi	.EFg	 monitor tracks 1,3,4 (simul-sync)
				 record part j on track 2
--------------------------------
				 play back track 1,2,3,4 (no sync)

Now all the parts are in sync!

But wait a minute. When ABCd was bounced from track 1 to
track 4, it got earlier. You can't do that! Well, yes you
can. The trick is, flip the reels over and do that bounce
while playing the tape backwards! When you play it forwards,
it sounds just fine, but it is one head delay EARLY. Now you
have a track to monitor that anticipates the bounce delay
you will get later in the process.

    

    Another trick. For April Fools Day.
    
    Rewind a tape onto a blank reel, but with a half twist in it. It looks
    like a tape, smells like a tape, but damn, it won't play or record like
    a tape! The oxide is on the wrong side. A "friend" pulled this one on
    me once.

    
    Re: .22
    
    I've been doing that for years. I use a four track with no sync head,
    so use the "reverse bounce" track to create monitor tracks so that
    everything gets on in synchronization.  Unfortunately I get only three
    tracks out of it.  I typically use track four for a mono mixdown when
    I'm all through.
    
    						Brian

    Dilemma and solution.  Behind a chord progression, I sequenced a bass 
    line and kick track.  My production approach demanded these be tight
    and in the pocket.  They weren't.  I tried to quantize them both, but 
    it lost the syncopation and slight beat-leading that characterizes a 
    good rhythm section. So I unquantized both and thought about it.
    
    Upon closer listening, the bass line was perfect, it was that I hadn't
    followed it closely enough when recording the kick drum.  I considered
    copying the bass track and somehow transposing all bass guitar note
    events to the one kick drum note number, but Performer doesn't allow
    this.  So I tackled it from the other direction.
    
    What I did was this: on the EMAX, my kick drum sample is triggered by a
    Bb2 note event.  On the EMAX, I can transpose any note downward as far
    as I want.. and then set the whole shebang to "nontranspose".. so now
    any note event at all on below B2 on that MIDI channel triggers the
    same kick drum sample at the very same pitch.. so I then drove this kick 
    drum setup directly from the bass line sequencer track.. you never heard 
    such a tight bass/kick track..
    
    karl

    On most of my synths it would be trivial to layer a bass sound with
    a kick sound (across the whole keyboard).
    
    But of course, this only helps if your using a synths builtin kick.
    
    The VFX has a very good, if somewhat less than complete set of builtin
    drum samples.
    
    It's been my experience that the interplay between the bass and the
    kick are probably the single most important part of the rhythm section.

    
    
    But if you were using Cubase !!! It would be one swish of the mouse..
    
    					Paul.
    					( A certified bore)

    And with Vision you can merge the timings of one track with the
    note-numbers of another, yielding a third track.

    
>    It's been my experience that the interplay between the bass and the
>    kick are probably the single most important part of the rhythm section.
    
    Yeah, no doubt about it, a good tight kick and bass can certainly make
    or break a rhythm track...
    
    But.... I've been playing alot of stuff lately that's a bit "outside"
    the standard pop/rock/blues idiom, and I've found as soon as I made the
    break so to speak, the interplay of kick and bass becomes less
    important. Actually, I find myself using the foot-closed HH more and
    more as the only indicator of where the beat is. The bass drum gets
    a decreasing presence as time keeper, and increasing use as
    punctuation.
    
    Edd

    Mixdown comment - it useta be that I'd run my effects sends pretty low
    and have the wet returns up there.  But then I did a project that
    included narration, and found that when the voice got quiet, the reverb
    went away.  Kind of 'breathed' based on the input volume.  I fixed it
    by running my sends up until the little green LED on the reverb was on
    all the time, and the 'clipping' LED on only on peaks.  Now the reverb
    doesn't breathe, and there's less hiss coming in (not that there was
    much before) because I'm using the reverb's S/N ratio more effectively.
    
    karl

    This is sort of a Sequencing Trix reply.. I've been using Performer for a
    long time, and as my polyphony and SGU count have gone up, so has my
    average number of tracks managed by the sequencer.  
    
    Long ago I standardized on placing a patch change in the first few
    beats of a track.   Then I started inserting a cc7 entry, assuming I
    didn't want full 127 volume.. sort of a beginning toward automated
    mixdown.  Then I started entering a cc10, MIDI Pan Position entry, as I
    got SGU's that recognized that.
    
    But the sheer number of tracks was getting to me.. and I might have an
    entire track with nothing more than a cymbal crash at bar 110 in it.
    
    So now I'm putting multiple sounds in one track. I might have a track
    labeled PMuteTrump/SnareRoll/TympHit/StringBass.. these sounds, non
    overlapping, sent from the same SGU on the same MIDI channel.  The
    label shows the order in which they occur.  And I still do all the
    Patch Change/cc7/cc10 stuff, I just do it one beat before the part
    begins playing.  That way I can scroll backward in the composition
    and start it playing without getting parts and timbres confused.  At
    the end of each track I enter a cc7=127 and cc10=60 command to
    normalize that MIDI channel, because the SGUs sometimes remember this
    stuff.
    
    karl