Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    Talk to an insurance agent.  Most companies that offer homeowner's and
    renter's policies will cover musical instruments assuming you have prof
    of value (receipts, appraisals) and you *don't* use them
    "professionally" (playing for money).  
    
    If you play out at *all*, you should purchase a rider to your homeowner's
    policy, which costs more of course, but will cover you in case you get
    ripped off on the road (explain *that* to your insurance agent when
    youtold him you weren't a professional).
    
    Price will vary by company, but about $100 will cover $1-2000 worth of
    gear for a year.
    
    							Brian 

    Check out notes 350 and 1061 in DREGS::MUSIC.
    
    There is a lot of good information there.
    
    This is a REALLY important consideration for those of us who have
    made fairly major investments in this hobby.
    
    If you've made a fairly major investment in MIDI gear and you THINK
    that your homeowner's or renter's policy covers all your stuff,
    YOU ARE PROBABLY WRONG!!!
    
    I've already seen one MIDIholic "ruined" by a lack of understanding
    of his coverage - I'd hate to see it again.  Please check into
    those notes.
    
    'Nuff said.
    
    	db

    (from a mostly read-only of COMMUSIC)
    
    My homeowner's insurance is w/Metpay (simply out of convenience)
    and I have added a rider to cover all my gear for 24 hours a day
    100% *REPLACEMENT* cost (not value at time of loss) and it's incredibly
    reasonable (less than $150/yr for over $10K of gear at 100% replacement
    cost).
    
    I got it mostly because we play on average 3 weekends a month,
    replacing even one piece of stolen/lost/damaged equipment is beyond
    our budget (we don't make any  money 8-), and because for the
    relatively cheap cost spread out over a year (making it even cheaper 8-)
    I considered it as important as the gear itself.
    
    It's a small investment, but well worth it IMHO.
    
    Steve
    
    Oh...and by the way, yes, you *should* give thanks to God that your
    equipment is there, whether or not it's insured ;-)

    I called METPAY, and I got different answers depending on when I
    called and who I talked with ...
    
    	1) We don't cover that at all, there's no option to add coverage
    	2) Sure, it'll cost you XX $ per $1K, etc.
    	3) You'll need an Inland Marine policy ...
    
    The last person I talked to, when I wanted to add coverage, told
    me that under no circumstances would they be able to provide coverage
    for musical/electronic gear, and there was no option/rider that
    I could purchase.
    
    Re .3 Who was your agent at METPAY?  What type of policy did you
    get?
    	
    	Jim_who's_confused...

    My METPAY person told me I'm covered without a rider.
    Perhaps they should coordinate their position more clearly.
    Tom

	I have METPAY home-owner's insurance and I was covered (as Tom mentioned
in -.1) for my equipment automatically - *only* if I did not make any money from
the equipment.  So I inquired about adding a rider to cover me as a professional
musician (just in case I did get paid domewhere down the road).  

	Since I just got a copy of my renewed policy yesterday, it is still 
fresh in my mind.  There is a special rider that covers things like stamp 
collections, golfing equipment, china, etc.  It also mentions musical equipment.
What I did was write up a schedule of all the equipment I own relating to music,
brought it to a local music store for them to write in the individual values of
each item, and submitted that to the insurance company.  The total cost to cover
my current studio for this year is $102.  It will provide replacement for items
that are stolen or damaged (though not from normal deterioration).  

	I put some of the actual text in the MUSIC conference's version of
this topic (1061.8, I think).

	Dan

    Homeowners policies usually do not cover losses relating to a business
    operating out of your home.  In fact operating a business in your home
    could interfere with the coverage on the home itself and the
    non-business related contents.  Read the fine print on your policy.
    
    If this is a hobby, they should handle it they way they handle cameras,
    fancy stereos, computers, and other stuff.
    
    If this is not a hobby, but you actually make money with it, you need
    to talk to a *competent* insurance agent, and make it clear what you
    are up to.  You could be on very thin ice.

    (wiping sweat from brow....)
    
    Sheesh!  Sounds like I outta be looking at this Metpay thing a bit
    closer, hmmm??
    
    I do seem to remember needing the rider because I use the equipment
    professionally (open to debate, surely, but close enough for Metpay).
    
    Insurance *is* a funny thing....each person's insurance is handled
    differently based on a NUMBER of non-understandable things that only
    your insurance agent can dream up.  I think I got the deal I did
    because I have that guaranteed replacement plan for my homeowners and
    the rider for the equipment was a cinch for them to snap up.  I did
    what Dan did, and had a music store validate the replacement cost of
    each item according to whatever books they had available at the time.
    
    You can be sure I'll be scheduling a meeting with Metpay ASAP to be
    sure I've got the insurance they said they sold me ;-)
    
    Thanks..this has been informative!
    
    Steve

When I went to METPAY to change my address in September, I checked into my
Renters Insurance again.  I was horrified to find out it doesn't cover any
of my musical equipment, nor can I extend it to do so!

Since I have nothing else of value, I've been shelling out bucks for nothing
all these years!  I immediately dropped the insurance, of course.

I have heard that insuring musical instruments costs a bundle (upwards of
$1000 every year).


				Mark

Dan and Steve,

>    I did what Dan did, and had a music store validate the replacement cost of
>    each item according to whatever books they had available at the time.

	I'm not a professional (my gear rarely moves from my place of 
residence), and so my gear is *supposedly* covered under my renter's 
insurance at replacement value.  However, I would like to have all my 
equipment 'validated' by a music store in case, God forbid, my gear *is* 
ever stolen, it will be easier to collect.  How is this done?  I have 
receipts for most of my gear.  Should I only have the stuff without 
receipts validated?  Is there a special form I need to get from my 
insurance company? (State Farm)

Thanks,
Dan

    Just because your stuff stays at home doesn't mean you aren't a
    "professional".  It depends on whether you receive money for your
    efforts.  Maybe Karl Moeller could tell us what he tells his insurance man.
    
    And we haven't even talked about zoning regulations yet.  There are
    cases of authors who work at home being charged with operating a
    business in a residential zone.  How these things get enforced vary
    from town to town.  If you play in a band for weddings, etc, and just
    *store* your gear at home, then you are probably not operating a
    business there.  But don't book any business over your home phone,
    and especially don't accept money there.
    
    This is the letter of the law.  It is rarely enforced to this extent,
    but it does happen, if some neighbor takes offense.  There are cases in
    LA of professional studios complaining about owners of home studios who
    rent out their facilities without paying business insurance rates,
    business phone rates, and operating in an area zoned residential, while
    the pro places, operating under the rules, have to pay all those
    expenses.

    Re .9 
    I don't think that was a good move especially if you are not using
    your gear professionally i.e making money. I had a bass guitar that was
    stolen from my apartment, luckily I had renter's insurance at the time
    (from ALLSTATE) and did get some money from the insurance company. Sure
    it was not replacement cost, but it was better than nothing. 
    AS far as I can remember musical equipment i.e your piano console, your
    stereo etc do not need special coverage, i don't understand why they
    should. I know you have a limit on jewelery unless you get the rider
    other than that...................Hmmmm. 
    
    Maybe time to call my agent.........
    
    Errol

    Dan (Gosselin),
    
    re: "procedure"
    
    I went to a music store, gave an exact list of my gear (model numbers,
    brand names, etc. etc.) and they wrote up a list of replacement
    costs (to the penny) based on the current books they had.  It was
    written up on their "receipt" stationery (like if you went there
    and bought a piece of gear...the kind of slip they'd give you for
    that) and submitted it to Metpay.
    
    I did this because Metpay told me it was acceptable.  You definitely
    need to check with your insurance company to see what's accpeptable
    with them.
    
    This insurance thing *has* brought up an interesting "flaw" in the
    industry (at least I see it this way...)
    
    The airline industry had similar flaws in that 2 people could be
    leaving from the same town, on the same flight, going to the same
    destination (say LA to NY) and Bob paid $350 and Joan paid $500.
    
    Based on this topic, it would seem that 2 people can't get the same
    price for the same coverage at the SAME agent!
    
    I know how it worked in my case, but with variables like:
    
    	- own a home
    	- rent an apartment
    	- run bus. out of home/apt
    	- run bus. elsewhere
    	- use gear professionally
    	- use gear as hobby
    	- desire replacement cost
    	- settle for "current market value"
    	- live in "X" state
    	- etc. etc.              
    
                   
    ...it seems 10 people will get 10 different policies and pay 10
    different rates for coverage.
                     
    Just the way it seems to run.  I forget who said "read the fine
    print" but that seems like a very wise suggestion.  Each person
    should check into this for himself and take nothing for granted.
    
    FWIW - Steve

(From a WORM, Write-Once or twice Read Mostly, reader of this conference 8*)

Gentlemen,

I have what is called a PAF (Personal Affects Flier) with State Farm (in 
Colorado).  The terms are that I don't use the equipment professionally, i.e., 
make an income from it. I'm covered under any peril. This policy is good where 
ever the equipment is located (like Texas in a tornado) and also in transit 
(like the car blows up or whatever).

The requirements include a list of equipment with serial numbers and the 
replacement value.  If the replacement value is more that $2000 for a piece of 
equipment, then I need to have it appraised (by a music store is sufficient) 
and the value indicated on a sheet of paper with the store's letter-head and 
signature of the manager (or appraiser).  The agent keeps a copy and I keep 
the original appraisal.

My understanding of the policy is that I receive the full amount of the 
replacement value of damaged or stolen equipment up front so that I may 
purchase the replacement equipment instead of fronting the money first (as 
some policies require) and then get reimbursed (which would be quite expensive 
to do).

I'm glad this topic was introduced.  It's good to keep up with what certain 
companies do regarding insurance on musical equipment beyond just homeowner or 
renter policies.

If anyone is interested in more info from me, please send me E-mail at 
GENRAL::J_NICHOLSON

-Jeff

Jeff,

	If you don't mind me asking, how much $$ for how much coverage?

Dan

    Hi Dan,
    
    I would rather not post it here.  It would be kinda like posting
    equipement lists here.
    
    I'll send you mail off-line.  Any else that's interested, please send
    me mail and I'll be happy to give talk to you off-line.
    
    Jeff

I also got two completely conflicting lines from metpay.  I would hate to have
to actually collect from them on a renter's policy, judging by how hard it was 
for me to collect on an auto policy.  They'd probably wriggle and squirm and
change their tune every 10 minutes until you started saying "lawsuit".  You 
might want to have a lawyer look over any policy they write to see if it's 
worth the paper it's printed on.

They do not seem to run things like you would expect an insurance company too.

Every interaction I have had with them has further promoted the idea that they
are almost uniformly a bunch of jackasses.

    For those guys who feel they're covered under their homeowner's
    policies, beware of a couple of known pratfalls:
    
    	o Be aware that "not making money" with your gear isn't quite
    	  what it is.  You may not "receive" money.  It doesn't matter
    	  if you operate at a loss, only if you have received any
    	  money that involved using your equipment.
    
    	o You may be covered while the equipment is IN your house, but
    	  you may not be covered while the equipment is in transit
    	  (like if you bring it to jams and such)
    
    	o There may be a single-item limit or single-area limit that
    	  most Commusic-type gear regular exceeds
    
    	o Be aware of the "replacement" vs. "depreciated value" cost thing.
    
    It's really hard to obtain peace-of-mind in this area, but the closest
    thing I've found is the Inland Marine type policy.  Homeowner's
    probably doesn't cut it for a lot of us.
    
    	db

    Well, as the knucklehead who originally mentioned the bit about
    having insurance, I thought I should put in a word here...
    
    Like Jeff and others, I have made sure that my insurance agenct
    (who happens to work for American Family Insurance) has a detailed
    listing of all items and objects in my house bigger than a breadbox
    and/or more expensive than $100.00.  (Alright, but you get the
    picture  :^).  By detailed, I mean a description and serial #'s,
    as well as the REPLACEMENT COST for the item.  The homeowner's policy
    I have comes in a variety of flavors and I have specifed the 100%
    Replacement flavor.  It costs a little more (about 15-20% on an
    annual basis) but it is well worth it to me.
    
    This may seem a tedious exercise to some, but I use a financial
    management program (Managing Your Money) to help me organize this.
    At least twice a year, I run a household inventory, make any changes,
    and then give the updated copy to my insurance agent.  I have done
    this for about eight years now and only once (last year) was it
    necessary for me to kick in for substantially more coverage.  Of
    course, I see the normal upward bumps for inflation, etc..
    
    While this process is obviously helpful vis-a-vis insurance, it
    also helps me get a feel for my net worth and in general, household 
    security.  It is amazing to me how many friends of mine have expensive
    hobbies, the actual costs of which they have no idea.
    
    Retaining the original sales receipts for items is another tedious
    and space-consuming task, but it really pays off if and when you
    have a loss.  According to my agent, "Bill, people like you are
    the ones who get claims settled quickly and usually in their favor
    because you have better records than we do!".  Food for thought...
    
    Although I own now, when I was renting I found it was a little more
    difficult to obtain good coverage for hobbies (at that time it was
    primarily audio equipment).  The problem is the insurance industry
    figures any renter who is going to the effort to obtain coverage
    must have something out of the ordinary.  In some areas, good coverage
    can be expensive.  Therefore it pays to SHOP, and if your current
    agency is not being responsive, GO TO A COMPETITOR.
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen (who hopes none of us will ever need any of this *  *
    					                         <
    								\__/)

    Y'all are helping me to *seriously* rethink my alleged "convenience"
    of using Metpay (of course, in this public forum, I'll probably
    have to say something like...I'm not suggesting anyone drop Metpay
    as their agent...).
    
    I'm setting up a meeting with them to be sure I've got what I believe
    I was sold....I'll post info here if anyone's interested.
    
    Steve

	"SCHEDULED PERSONAL PROPERTY

	"For an additional premium, we will pay for loss or damage from all 
risks of physical loss, to certain classes of personal property.  The classes 
to be covered must be listed in the schedule...

	"For the following classes of property, no item of personal property
will be covered unless the specified item is listed separately in the schedule:"

...

	"4.  Musical instruments and related equipment  NOTE: You must also tell
us whether any listed instrument may be used for performance for pay."

...

	It goes on to say that you need to add any newly acquired equipment 
within 30 days of purchase and that the "limit of liability for such property
will be 25% of the limit already shown on the schedule for the class involved,
or $10,000, whichever is less."  It is my understanding that this is talking 
about the limit of liability up to the point that the new equipment is 
registered.

	Dan

    
    But it doesn't say what the policy is good for if the equipment is
    'used in a performance for pay'.
    
    I'd find out.
    
    CdH
    

    I sold insurance 16 years ago (and my memory isn't what it used to be). 
    But as a general rule a homeowner's policy was intended to cover stuff
    that is "normally in the home".  A strict interpretation would not
    cover musical instruments (snowmobile suits, canoes, golf clubs, gold
    or silver bullion, jewelry,  etc).  In many cases companies do pay claims
    involving things like this but they are not specifically covered.

    Coverage for items not normally found in the home (whatever these are)
    may be provided via a rider or separate policy.  I don't think it is
    hard to see why a homeowner's policy doesn't cover "commercial" items
    like instruments used in a band for pay.

    I just checked with Metpay about the reputed rider that you can have
    attached to your homeowner's policy. Two different representatives in
    different offices gave me the same information, so this would seem to
    be a fairly "standard" practice for them. This is what they told me:
    
    First of all, they asked if the instruments would be used
    professionally. I said yes - presumably the rates would be somewhat
    lower if they were not being used professionally. The rates are:
    
    	$2.50 per $100 for the first $1500 of coverage
    
    	$ .55 per $100 over that
    
    These are annual rates. For $5000 coverage, for example, that comes to
    $56.75, which seems quite reasonable. As noted previously, you have to
    go to a music store and get an appraisal of your equipment (I was told
    to just tell them it was for insurance purposes, but on further
    questioning was told it is essentially the replacement value they are
    after). Any time you purchase new equipment you have to deliver a copy
    of the receipt to them within some time period.
    
    Now for the down-side: I have read the fine print on this policy, but
    when I asked them what was actually covered they used some term like
    "disaster", "accident" or "risk". My impression from this is that you
    are probably covered in the event of theft, fire, flood, etc. For most
    purposes this may be adequate. But a friend of mine buys violin
    insurance from a place in NJ that covers everything you can imagine,
    even if you drop it or the baby steps on it (or some jerk spills beer
    all over it). From what he told me about his policy it sounds like it
    would be a lot easier to collect on than it might be from Metpay for
    some things that could happen. He says basically he is assured that he
    will always have the instrument or some comparable instrument in
    exactly the condition it is in now. I intend to check out the details
    on this policy before I go with Metpay.
    
    - Ram

RE < Note 2245.25 by TOOK::SUDAMA "Living is easy with eyes closed..." >

	That is exactly the coverage I have.  

	Dan

    
    Does your Metpay rider cover theft, both in and out of the home?
    
    CdH
    

RE < Note 2245.27 by STROKR::DEHAHN >

	Yes, I'm 99% sure it does, but I'll double check (can't be too 
cautious, ya know).

	Dan