Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    If it's strictly for lounge use then you really only need vocal
    reinforcement. A small set of speakers on stands should do fine. Look
    at the EAW PM315 (my fav), EV SH1502, TOA 380SE. All of these can be
    driven loud from a 200W/ch amp, passively, no crossovers needed. 300W/
    ch will be even better. Try a Crown PB1 or PB2, QSC MX700, Crest FA901.
    These speakers are very well suited for vocals, they have good midrange
    punch, and really don't need any eq. If you put them on stands out
    front and to the side of your monitors feedback is minimal.
    
    CdH
    

	I'm approaching a similar goal by building my own PA speakers.  I have
plans from EV for various sized ported bass cabs and I already had a set of 
horns to handle the mid/high frequency range.

	What I have done is actually build TWO systems.  One system uses the 15"
speaker version of the ported bass cab and the other uses the 12".  The cost was
quite low compared to what I would have had to spend on a comparable system.  As
I said, I already had one set of horns - these are very large (26" wide) as well
as the drivers to screw into them.  I have to buy another set of horns for the
smaller cabs (actually I have one, I need a matching one).  For the mid-high 
driver, I'm using an EV1202 and it sounds pretty good to me.  I have this 
mounted in an EV 8HD horn which is supposed to have a very wide dispersion 
(120�).  I have yet to see whether that holds true.

	I plan to have both active crossing-over and passive.  For now, I'd like
to try using the active system (since I do have enough amp power) and have the 
passive to fall back on should I lose an amp or something.  I'll probably mount
the passive x-overs in a little box and just keep them in the accessories case.

	If you're interested in the plans for these cabs (or if you'd want to 
work something out for me to build them) let me know.

	As far as what's out on the market - Peavey's SP2's and SP3's are pretty
good.  They can be found on the used market most of the time.  I know two 
different bands that have used them and they've always performed the way they
should.  Expect to pay between $400 and $500 for a pair used.

	For amps, if you're buying used, I recommend a Crown.  They're 
dependable and sound good.  I've been told that my DC300A will last me all my 
life.

	Dan

    What I own at present for sound reinforcement ...
    
    (2) Cerwin-Vega V-15's (3-way, 15")
    (2) RAMSA 200's (2-way, 12")
    (1) Carver PM100 power amp (150w/ch into 4 ohms, 1 rack space!)
    (1) Furman 6-input stereo mixer (1 rack space)
    (1) Rane 2x15 EQ (1 rack space)
    
    	-Jim

    
    
        Thanks for the quick replies.      
    
     RE .1    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. EVERYTHING is going
    to go through this system.      
    
        Keep em coming.............I'm getting the idea.
    
    					Rich
    

    
    You'll need something bigger than the small stuff I mentioned if you're 
    going to pump everything at high levels through the system. I like EAW
    FR253's best, they are portable, medium sized, have extended range and
    are a three way passive system that will take up to 600 watts. They are
    a 4 ohm cab. A Crest 7001, QSC MX1500, or Crown MacroTech 2400 would be
    a good match for that system.
    
    CdH
    

    
    
       My entire idea behind this is to build the speaker system, including
    enclosures, from scratch. That's why I need to know what's in a EAW
    FR253, etc. Sorry if it seems I'm  picking on you. *^}
    
                                 Rich
                                                             

	For about $6.00 you can go to Radio Shack & get a book on designing
	speaker enclosures. You might want to get one for reference, so
	you can get some sort of Idea about what you might be building.
	
								Jens

This is the setup I'm using for my trio:

    EAW speakers (don't remember the model number, but they're the 
    			small 2-way speakers, mounted on USS stands)

    Biamp Rackmax 16-channel rackmount mixer

    Crown Powerbase 2 power amp

    Roland SRV2000 digital delay

    ART Proverb 200 multi effects

I originally had a 20-space rack to carry everything in one load, but 
since I'm the only guy in the band and we don't have a truck, this 
quickly proved to be unacceptable. I replaced it with a 10-space rack 
for the board and power amp and a 2-space rack for the effects.

Up until now, we've been using taped music. We'll soon be switching to 
a live MIDI setup.

The only problem that we've had is that the low end sometimes doesn't 
push out enough. In retrospect, we probably should have splurged the 
extra money and gone for three-way speakers with a bigger bass 
speaker. We're considering buying a sub-woofer to pump out the low end 
better, but we're going to wait and see how the sound quality improves 
once we switch to live sequences. The problem may just be the poorer 
audio quality of taped music.

-Dan

    
    
      What do you use for bass speakers?. Twelves or fifteens?.
    
    					Thanx...Rich
    

    Rich;
    
    If you're going to build your own, I'd recommend the bins that Dan
    Eaton mentioned in an earlier reply. There fairly easy to build and
    sound good (not spectacular..but good). Actually, I like the 12" 
    version a lot for the midrange (basically the vocal range) of a 3
    way system. I used the 18" version (2 on each side) for bass. These
    are very compact. I used to carry a 4 way system in one regular size
    van.  The bass of the 18" bins is not a "chest thumper"..but it's 
    clean and clear. 
    If you're willing to buy something for the low end...expect to pay!@
    Those big drivers cost a bundle. EV has some really neat compact low
    end bins. I'd even check out some of the Peavey stuff. 
    By the way, the type of speakers you use (no matter what you build) is
    the most important element. Stick to the big names...if you have a
    problem, you can get EV, JBL, etc. re-coned or repaired quickly. I
    had great luck with EV over the years. Also, I tried some 18" PAS for my
    low-mids, and they weren't bad for the price. They were easy to have
    fixed too (someone poured a beer in one...).
    On the high end (horn drivers ) I like Renkus-Heinz and Emilar.
    
    I don't envy the job you are undertaking!!!
    
    Pat  

    
      Thanks for the info, Pat.
    

Heard Dan Eaton's speakers the other night - sounded pretty good. I would 
listen to his advice. 

BTW, this isn't the right note, but I would like to publicly thank Dan for the 
help he gave me this past week. What a super person. Thanks, Dan.

Geoff

RE: an earlier reply

My speakers only have a 12" bass.

We are considering getting a subwoofer setup to add more bottom end.

-Dan

    Gidday from down under,
    			   just read your note and thought I'd throw my 2
    watts in. In my spare time down here I run a single system PA hire
    business. Most of the gear we built ourselves and is constantly being
    upgraded, when we can afford it. 
    	FOH we have 2 small W bins which we built from a FANE design book
    (British I think.) with a 15" Etone (local brand, bullet proof but low
    SPL and not real smooth.) in each. Then on top of that we use 2 EV TL
    style home made cubes with a 15" K130 JBL in each. On top of that we
    have 2 RCF radial horns with a row of angled piezo's on top. There is a
    passive crossover built into each horn box which is crossed over with
    the W's at about 2 1/2K and the JBL cube gets it all, as the K130 goes
    up to 6K and it seemed a shame to waste all that response!
    	We drive this with a Jands (another local brand and bullet proof as
    well!) 2 x 300w into 4 ohm amp from a HH (British) 16 channel desk
    through 4 x 31 band graphics (left, right, foldback and side fill) a
    home made 300W for foldback and a 200W for side fill. FOH goes
    through an Alesis Microlimiter, Reverb and delay etc.
    	If you want to put kick drum through the PA youll need 15"s at
    least cause kick through 12"s just doesnt work (sounds like a cardboard
    box) remember that a 15" puts out the same acoustic wattage as two 12"s
    so paying more for a good quality 15" is worth it. Stick with the good
    quality brands of speakers JBL etc as their quoted wattage is usually
    well within its capability and they usually have a higher SPL than the
    cheapies so you get more sound for the same power.
    	We have found that our 600w FOH is plenty for even largish size
    halls and usually run our master faders down pretty low for most gigs,
    remember, to get 300W out of a 300W amp you have to load it at its
    rated Z usually 4 ohms, if you run your speaker stacks at 8 or 16 ohms
    your losing a lot of power. Which means you have to design your speaker
    system before you go out and buy the speakers so you can work out what
    impedance to look for.
    
    Any more info just give us a hoy!
    
    Coo eee cobbers,
    Phil.

	My ongoing speaker-building project...

	I had to shift gears a bit on my PA system building plans.  I called
EV to ask for some information and spoke at length with a real knowledgable
guy.  It helped me quite a bit to clear up misconceptions I had developed about
the way I've been building my PA.

	The first thing I found out was that I shouldn't use the EV 8HD horns 
for the complete high end.  It is a mid-range horn and gets beemy in the
high frequencies.  That makes sense, but I just never thought about it.  It
does make me wonder, though...  Won't all horns get beamy in the highs?  How do
so many compact speaker systems get by with nothing more than a front-loaded
15 and a horn?

	Anyway, I got real discouraged when I found out about this (especially
because I had just finished a real nice looking set of cabs for the horn).  I
started thinking about how to adapt and almost gave up - started looking into
buying a system.  Then it hit me; I had a pair of EV ST350A tweeters sitting
around that I was going to use in a larger project.  I checked out sizes and
found I could make a cab identical in size to the 12" theile bass cabs I have, 
load the horn (in its proper upright orientation) and the tweeter and set them
up piggy-back style over the 12" theile cabs.  I had a couple of 4Khz xovers
(w/tweeter protection) to split the ST350 off from the horn and voila!  I 
finished constructing the cabs and wiring them up last weekend.  For my purposes
they sound quite good.

	I'm eventually going to add on some bigger bass cabs and either tri-amp
or quad-amp the setup.  I'll either do the 15" theile or the 18" theile cabs
that I have plans for.

	Now, I have not tried these cabs out in a hall yet, so I don't know how 
they'll hold up in a real sound reinforcement environment, but so far things are
going fairly well.

	One other thing...  I'm tring to use dual banana plugs for everything as
they are much better than �" phone plugs for power handling.  They are also easy
to repair, no soldering necessary.

	Dan

    
    What happens is that the highs get beamy on large horns, it's just a
    physical phenomenon. Some horns handle this better than others.
    
    The ST350 is an excellent unit, it's what's used as the top end of the
    Klipsch LaScala. 4KHz is a little low for this unit, so watch your
    power levels if you are using a low order crossover, you could smoke
    it.
    
    Banana (Pomona MDP...NOT Taiwan copies) are good speaker connectors,
    just remember to tape the speaker wire to the cab to help keep them in
    the jacks. I use Neutrix Speakon now, they are expensive but carry high
    current and they lock.
    
    Good luck...
    
    CdH
    

    
    
    What exactly is "beamy" ?
    
    				Paul.

    beamy=a narrow cardoiod radiation pattern
    Tom

RE < Note 2141.16 by STROKR::DEHAHN >

>    What happens is that the highs get beamy on large horns, it's just a
>    physical phenomenon. Some horns handle this better than others.

	At what frequency should one expect to encounter loss of dispersion?  
I have the book Yamaha put out (it is not a Yamaha-endorsing book, btw) about 
sound systems and it says that most music reproduced through a PA system that 
only goes up to 15Khz will be acceptable and that for rock music, it can even 
be fine when it only goes up to 10Khz.

	So how important is this, anyway?  There sure are a whole lot of speaker
systems that use large horns on the high end.  By the same token, its difficult 
finding high frequency cabs (separates) that use anything else other than large 
horns.  
	
>    The ST350 is an excellent unit, it's what's used as the top end of the
>    Klipsch LaScala. 4KHz is a little low for this unit, so watch your
>    power levels if you are using a low order crossover, you could smoke
>    it.

	By low order, do you mean 12db per octave (which is what I believe it 
is)?

	Dan

RE < Note 2141.17 by BAHTAT::KENT "peekay" >

	Not being familiar with Tom's terminology, I'll just add this...

	To my understanding, "beamy" means a loss of dispersion, such that the 
sound changes (loss of high frequencies) the further off axis you are.

	Dan

	You guys got "beamy" right.  It's real noticable on cheap
	transducers, like the motorola piezos.  I don't have numbers in
	front of me, but subjectively it's like a 3db drop for higher
	frequencies when you're 30 degrees of axis. That's why you'll see
	an array of these little drivers when somebody uses them in a PA
	application - they're trying to get away from that ultrasonic
	disrupter beam effect, so they send the highs out in a lot of
	directions. 

    
    The frequency where the horn gets beamy depends on the horn and driver
    design. Whether this is an issue for your application or not, I can't
    answer that question. From 10KHz and up it's mainly sparkle. Depends if
    you want true full range sound or if you can get away with less. If
    your inputs and the rest of your system is real noisy I wouldn't recommend
    using a full range system. Gates can do only so much before you hear
    them working.
    
    With your tweeters, I would use no less than a 12dB (second order)
    crossover at 4KHz. Even then you are compromising some of the power
    handling. The LaScala's cross over at 6KHz via a 3rd order crossover
    (18 dB/octave).
    
    CdH
    

    
    Oh yeah
    
    What I mean by beamy...loss of horizontal beamwidth at that particular
    frequency, a narrowing of dispersion
    
    A polar frequency plot of a standard loudspeaker is somewhat cardioid
    (heart shaped)
    
    CdH
    

    
    
      Well folks, eight months after starting this topic, I finally
    broke down and bought a QSC MX700 (150wpc, 8ohms) and a pair of
    Yamaha two way cabs w/15's.
      I ab'd these cabs against various other brands in the same price range,
    give or take $75 per speaker, and selected these for their size,
    weight, and sound (although not neccesarily in that order 8^}).
      I did notice that several of the most popular 2 way systems seem
    to really lack in the midrange department, especially the CV's.
    
            Again, thanks to all for the info.
    
           Next, an EQ. When does it end?. Or does it end?.
    
    
    RichC
    

    
    The QSC is a nice amp, I use an MX1500 for the high end of my system. 
    Cerwin Vegas aren't necessarily lacking midrange, they're flatter
    overall and are better suited for recorded music. The Yamahas are quite
    bright in the mids, which is probably what you are after.
    
    CdH
    

    
    While we're talking speakers, any comments on the EV S-100 cabs?  These
    are the ones that come with the EV/Tapco "Entertainer" PA system.  Each
    has a 12" and a horn in  a molded plastic case.  I've also seen the
    S-200 which appears similar but a bit larger and goes lower in the
    bass.
    
    Anyway, I've seen a lot of folk outfits around Boston using the S-100s. 
    They are compact, easy to lug around (plastic makes them light and they
    look like they can be clamped together for carrying).  They can be
    stand-mounted vertically or horizontally and also can be used as
    monitors but plugging in a small "leg" in back to tilt them up.
    
    Every time I've heard them they sounded very clean and smooth, but
    these were always moderate volume installations:  PA at small
    coffeehouses, amplification for a small string band at a square dance,
    etc.  My application would be for vocals for moderate volume rock or
    country in small rooms.  The fact they could also be used as monitors
    is a plus, and the portability is important.  (I had used Gollehon S12E
    cabs in this application for a number of years with good results, but
    no longer own them).  I'm looking for a good utility cab and I have had
    lots of good experiences with EV speakers and mics in the past.
    
    Sam Ash has these now for $500 a pair, new.  I could buy 12"/horn cabs
    from TOA, Yamaha, etc. for less (more like $350-400) or even 15"/horn
    cabs for even money.
    
    Comments, pro or con?
    
    							Brian

    Brian,
    
    I've been looking for comparable speakers myself. Portability is a big
    concern for me, and I was impressed with the EV speakers on this
    account. But several people I've asked about this have recommended that
    I'd be better off with the Peavey 358S, which is a 3-way speaker with a
    15" woofer in a stand-mountable cabinet that is a little larger and
    heavier than the EV S-100, but still quite portable. They are also
    cheaper (I've been quoted around $330 each list, compared to $399 list
    for the EV's), although the Sam Ash price on the EV's is much lower
    than what I've seen them for.
    
    This recommendation was coming from music stores that sell both EV's
    and Peavey's, so they shouldn't really be biased, unless they are
    getting a bigger markup on the Peavey's. One factor, however, is that I
    will be running full sequences through the speakers as well as vocals.
    Maybe that's why they thought the EV's would be a little "light" for my
    use. If you are just doing vocals they might do fine. I'd be interested
    to know what else you find out about them or what other speakers you
    look at.
    
    - Ram

    
    The EV's are real nice, however they are actively equalized. If you
    don't have the Entertainer board or eq box, you must have an equalizer
    to get any life out of these speakers. They work great for GB bands but
    will probably be a little light for your intended use. Something on the
    lines of an SH1502, S1202, SP2, SP3, Ramsa WS200, Toa 380SE, EAW PM315
    would be better.
    
    CdH
    

    I went out and took a look at the Peavey 358S, and compared it to the
    EV Entertainer and the Peavey 115H. The 358S is a 3-way speaker with
    a 15" woofer, 10" mid-range, and a horn in a cabinet about 24" w x
    18" d x 30" h. That makes it somewhat bigger than the 115H, and
    considerably bigger than the EV, but it can still be stand mounted
    (built in mount adaptor), and can be picked up (side recessed handles)
    by one person without breaking your back.
    
    By contrast, the Peavey 115H is a 2-way speaker with one 15" woofer and
    a horn. The EV has one 12" woofer and a horn. The EV is actually pretty
    heavy for its size, but the size is definitely nice. Very portable,
    with a suitcase style handle built into the side.
    
    As far as sound goes, my feeling was that the 358S had both of the
    others beat hands down for quality. The lack of mid-range on both the
    115H and the EV, and the cross-over from low to high, was quite
    noticeable by comparison, and the larger cabinet seemed to help support
    the bottom end. The 12" woofer on the EV really couldn't cut it for
    much other than vocals, although this would probably be a great PA
    speaker for a small acoustic group. The 358S seemed pretty smooth
    across the whole frequency range, with pretty good punch in the low
    end. The dispersion on the EV, however, was excellent as compared to
    the Peavey's, with almost no directionality. I suspect this is a result
    of the horn design, which is very open.
    
    In any case, the 358S lists for $339, about $100 more than the 115H,
    and about $150 less than the EV. I've decided that for my application
    the EV definitely won't cut it, and the 358S is the best thing I've
    heard for that kind of money (and size).
    
    - Ram

    Folks,
    
    I am looking for some advice on the best way to hook up a monitor
    system to our P.A. at minimal cost.
    
    Basically we are a small 3-piece playing Pubs and small clubs with
    usually < 100 people but occasionally we play halls and this is where
    we really need the monitors.
    
    We have a Peavey XM-6 for the main P.A. amp and also a Carlsboro Cobra
    100 spare. I would like to use the Cobra to drive the monitor speakers
    (which are home made bass driver + piezo_electric horn wedges).
    
    How do I connect these up to permit the correct levels etc between the
    amps? 
    
    I tried it last night by connecting the "effects_out" of the PV into a
    "mic" input on the Cobra and it worked but there was distortion present
    which I assume was die to the input signal overloading the input stage
    somewhat!
    
    There is a "pre-amp" output on the PV but when connected to it
    disconnects the main P.A......obviously not such a good idea.
    
    The Cobra has 3 high/low impedance 1/4" mic inputs and one tape
    input/output (5-pin DIN socket). I haven't tried the DIN yet.....would
    it be better?
    
    Do I need to put something between the 2 amps to match
    impedances/levels?
    
    I have found lots of help in this notesfile before and hope someone can
    help sort this one out asap.
    
    Thanks in anticipation.............................Sean

If you can figure out the pin-out on the 5pin DIN, use the TAPE input. 
It will work well.  Very likely, the TAPE has L in, R in, L out, R out,
and GND.

From the effects output, tie GND to the outside conductor to the GND on
the 5-pin, and the signal to both L in and R in.

In general  (gross generalization here), there are three kinds of audio
signals you find on connectors: 

- MIC level (low or high imp.)  These are low level inputs, often very
sensitive to noise.  They receive a lot of amplification.  Only
microphones generate MIC level.  Everything else is line level.

- LINE level - These are farily well standardized and are used to carry
sound between different audio components.  All the inputs and outputs on
effect boxes, mixers, and amps are usually line level, unless explicitly
labelled as "mic input" or "speaker output".

- Speaker level - a high level signal capable of carrying a lot of
power, enough to blow the socks off your preams.  Use for driving
speakers only.  Depending on your amplifier, this could carry enough
juice to cook eggs.

Use the tape input, you'll be glad you did.

    I agree with Jeff - sounds like your effects send is a LINE level one,
    about 1.0 volts, plugged into a MIC input, looking for about .01 volt.
    Not surprised it distorted.  Check the tape input.  You may haveta
    build a custom cable
    
    karl