Conference napalm::commusic_v1

I'm not an expert, but I am interested and learning.
These are some personal opinions and bits of wisdom that 
I'm using to make my own decisions...

	You get better sound on Reel-to-reel than cassette.

	The wider the tape (and heads) the better they sound 
	and the more expensive they are to buy and operate.

	The faster the tape speed the better the sound.

	Noise reduction is a necessity (I like DBX).	

	A good board is necessary, as well as a good mixdown deck.

	It's all very very expensive, and you have to pay for quality.

	A recording system is only as good as its weakest link.

	Compromise convienence before quality.

	Knowing how to use the equipment properly is at least as 
	important as having good equipment.

	Buy name brands like Tascam, Fostex, Otari.

	There are some good buys on used 2, 4 and 8 track reel to
	reels, and boards from the late 70's and early 80's, especially
	4 tracks. Technology hasn't changed that much.

	I haven't noticed much at all in new technology. 
	Tascam syncassette 238 	is interesting in that it has real 
	good specs for a casssette, and multiple decks can be cascaded to 
	grow beyond 8 tracks.

	In about two years, all analog recording may be obsolete because 
	of digital recording techniques. But, can you or I wait that long?

	I like the Tascam 388 as a good compromise system, but I have
	yet to put down my money. Sombody please talk me out of it.

Rick

>It's all very very expensive, and you have to pay for quality.

    Ok - give me an idea of just how much we're talking here.  $3k? $5k?
    $10k?  {gulp} 

-b

    Here's a rough guess at my tape/mixer setup that you may be able to use
    as a price gauge:
    
    	Tascam Model 38 (8 track, 1/2")		2200$US
    	2 DX4D (4 channel dbx I n/r)		 500 (for both, I think)
    	Tascam 320B mixer (20 input, 4 buss,    2600
    		stereo and mono main mixes)
    						====
    						5300
    
    I think the 320B was a really good price, the others may be easily
    attainable (in fact, last December Tascam gave away the dbx if you
    bought the 38).  Used is always an option.  The price of the Tascam
    8-track cassette has been dropped to ~$1700 I think (with built-in
    noise reduction).
    
    In my never-ending struggle to spend every cent I make on musical
    equipment, there's always the Tascam MS-16 to consider.  That's a 1/2"
    16-track deck with built-in DBX that lists for ~8K, if I remeber
    correctly.
    
    A consideration for the 1/2" decks is that tape is pretty expensive (at
    least $30 for a reel that lasts 22 or so minutes at 15 ips).  For me,
    this means that I save fewer tapes and rely more on mixed-down masters
    for long-term storage.  With cheaper tape it's easier to save
    EVERYTHING, not just mixes.
    
    - John -

Well,  it really depends upon how much you already have,
and what your goals are. If you want to get ideas on tape, to
share amoung a band, then you can go cassette for between $50-0 and $1k. 
If you want to make demos, then you need to move toward reel to reel quality
and start moving from $1k to $5k.
If you want to sumbit a demo to a record company, you need very
good equipment and techniques and are probably are talking $5 to $10k
if you are very slick. If you want to produce a record in your basement
with anything close to todays professional standards you need megabucks.

My guess is that you are trying to get as close to demo quality
as possible, within a restrained hobbyist budget. (thats me)

My (very rough) guess about the various levels of cost....

	4 track reel to reel, used $1k-$3k total
		Tascam 3440-s, $500, 8x4x2 board $300-400 
		noise reduction $200?

	8 track reel to reel 2$k- 5$k
		Used 8trk - $1500-$2200, used noise unit $300-$400,
		12x8x4 board $1500 

	Tascam 388, incl 8x8x2 board, 1/4 8 track - ~$3k

Then add in chords, couple of microphones, effects units, monitors,
headphones, midi synchronizers, studio instruments...etc...etc... 
If you already have some of these things, you outlay will be less.
If you don't, they add up quickly. It really doesn't take long to be
at $10k.

I have a book called the "Guide to Home Recording", which lists
sample studios. It costs about $20, and is a good investement
before you start buying new or used equipment. Good for planning
a well rounded home studio at many price levels, as well as being packed
with information on how to get the best out of your studio equipment.

Rick

    I'm talking making/submitting demos.  I already do that with my 4track
    (and get very good results), but the thing just isn't big enough
    anymore. 

    Equipment list (anticipated):

	Proteus
	Oberheim OB-Xa (or Matrix-12)
	HR-16
	(VFX workstation, EPS or T1 - not certain yet)
	MIDIverb II (Quadraverb)
	M160 16chan kybd mixer, no EQ
	All the mics I'll ever need
	Many/varied guitars/amps/FX
	MTP with SMPTE capability

    My problem is that I can't get more than one recording pass.  I can
    pretty much use CC#7 and MIDI to control mixes from my MIDI gear during
    the sequence (and keep all MIDI stuff on 2 tracks). I'd like to be able
    to get a few vocal tracks, several guitar tracks, and some acoustic
    things as well (like piano, percussion, etc).  Since I like the effect
    of mastering in stereo, I'm limited to 3 takes (2 MIDI, 1 guitar, 1
    vocal) ... make that 2 if I decide to use tape sync. 

    The 4 track is too noisy to ping-pong (dolby B reduction), and trying
    to use FSK sync drops me yet another track.  What I'd like (ideally)
    is:

	minimum 8 track tape deck (preferably reel)
	ability to sync to SMPTE (or FSK) without burning a track
	dbx n/r

    I'd like to be able to get by without buying another board (for at
    least the time being), but am not sure what to expect in terms of
    functionality loss; what am I out if I use the M160 as a console for
    the short term?  (I figure I can swing $2k for the tape, but not the
    extra ~$3k for the board). 

-b

    
    re: -.1
    
>>> ability to sync to SMPTE (or FSK) without burning a track
    
    If you are going to try to sync up a tape deck (vocals, guitars, etc.)
    with your sequenced parts, I don't think there's any way to NOT use a
    track on the tape deck.  I sync to SMPTE by using Track 8 to hold the
    SMPTE time code.  I then have been able to use tracks 1-7 for vocals,
    guitars, submixes of other stuff.  (Though many prefer to use aguard
    track but wasting an blank track is too much for me to lose so I'm just
    careful about the volume of the tone on 8 and instruments on 7.)
    
    Then (using MTP on a Mac SE), I can play parts into the sequencer by
    running the tape deck and having the SMPTE->MIDI Time Code output
    go into the Mac's Printer Port MIDI interface.  The "musical" MIDI data
    then has to go into the Mac's Comm Port MIDI interface.  Note that this
    set up requires 2 MIDI interfaces.  I'm pretty sure that MTP doc says
    quite clearly that in External Sync to MTC, the printer port can ONLY
    receive the MTC information and everything else HAS to come into the
    Comm port.  I'd check this scenario out closely for accuracy and YOUR
    needs before I bought anything.  (The price of a SMPTE box, 2 MIDI
    interfaces, and MTP can add up quickly.)
    
>>>    I'd like to be able to get by without buying another board (for at
>>>    least the time being), but am not sure what to expect in terms of
>>>    functionality loss; what am I out if I use the M160 as a console for
>>>    the short term?  (I figure I can swing $2k for the tape, but not the
>>>    extra ~$3k for the board). 
    
    I should have mentioned in my earlier note that, although I now use a
    Tascam 320B mixer, I initially used a Tascam Model 30 mixer.  This was
    "only" an 8-in, 4-buss, stereo master-out mixer.  I just outgrew it
    because I needed the convenience of more inputs to do the mixes the way
    I wanted.  If you're willing to put up with a little hassle of
    re-wiring the setup as your recording/mixing needs change, I see no
    reason why the M160 should do you for a while.  The ONLY reason I
    upgraded to the M320B was (1) I really thought I needed for inputs AND
    (2) I got a really good price on the M320B.  If not for both of these
    situations combined, I would probably still have my Model 30.
    
    For 8 or 16 tracks, I think an 8-buss board would be really nice but
    the price jump from 4 to 8 buss can be pretty prohibitive.  You're
    paying for convenience and the slightly better specs/features that come
    with "pro" equipment.  Of course, I'm waiting to get a look at the
    8-buss boards (Seil? Seck?) JBL is distributing to see how they
    compare.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    - John -

    
    Although I won't be able to afford it for a while, I've started
    thinking about the move from 4-track to 8-track (can't stop thinking
    ahead!).  As Brad says, four tracks fill up quickly when you
    start getting used to mixing in stereo.. 
    
    As an alternative to 8-track, what about Sansui's new 6-track cassette
    system, as a progressive step toward 8-track.  This unit was described
    in Keyboard Magazine a couple of months ago and I think it's supposed
    to retail between 1 and $2K. 
    
    What they give you is six tracks and a built-in stereo mixdown deck.
    The system has a built in mixer and they picture you doing this:
    
    	1 Recording four tracks just like you do on your 4-track.
    
    	2 Bouncing those down in stereo to tracks 5 and 6.
    
    	3 Adding four more tracks on tracks 1-4.
    
    	4 Mixing down to the stereo mixdown deck.
    
    The mixer is supposed to have a lot functionality for its size,
    including effects send and I believe high, low, and midrange
    equalization.  I believe noise reduction is built-in as
    well--they're calling it a studio workstation--everything you need
    to start recording.
    
    Any thoughts on this as an alternative to moving directly into an
    8-track, mixer, and noise reduction setup?

    Peter
    
    P.S. Don't remember seeing a note about the Sansui --let me know if
    I missed it.  If I can't find one, I'll enter the specs from Keyboard
    in a new note.

    
    I hear Tascam has a replacement for the 38 in the works.  This could
    mean product retirement sale prices on the 38, if you don't mind
    having perfectly serviceable but nominally obsolete technology.
    
    len.
    

	in the form of a new "T" series 8 track half-inch-format deck.

	I forgot the model number. But I remember the features:

	 - built in dbx
	 - two stage autolocator on board
	 - new electronix
	 - new transport
	 - built in sync controls

	list price was 3300 bux. Who remembers the model number? Sounded
	fine by my ears, not that I can buy any studio equipment right now...

	/pjh

    > Any thoughts on using the 6 track as a stepping stone... (paraphrased
      from .7)
    
    I think it's a BAD idea. For the money you'd pay for the 6 track you
    could get most of an 8, albeit without the mixer or mix-down deck.
    I don't see the mixdown deck as a feature, as most of us already have
    a good quality stereo cassette deck.
    
    Being 'unstandard' scares me. My guess is the 6 track machine will die
    leaving you with a $2000 white elephant and a bunch of masters you
    don't have a prayer of playing.
    
    I don't see getting 'pro' results from any multi-tracking cassette dex
    as viable given today's technology.
    
    If you insist on cassette, I suspect your investment will be (a) much
    lower and (b) have a much greater chance of being recouped if you stick
    with a well known 4-track machine....
    
    Edd

    Blast.  3k is big beans for me.  Grump.  What I think I'm hearing is
    around $2.5k for the 38, and another 500 for dbx, right? 

    Whutsa diff between a 38 and the 388?  

    FWIW - I have an Atari running MTP ... the SMPTE box for the ST is
    external and based on MIDI time code - and can be had for around $300
    (if I remember right); reason I said something about not burning a
    track to sync was because I remembered reading a blurb somewhere on a
    new deck that's come out that does not require burning a track for sync
    ... but I couldn't remember if it was FSK or SMPTE (I thought it was
    the new Teac 8track cassette).  Ah well, memory.

    Gotta agree w/ Uncle Edd, Peter ... the 6 track doesn't sound like a
    real hot idea.  Seems to me that Akai had a 12 track machine based on
    video tape out a while back (I saw one once ... quite a monster). I
    don't think it caught on.

    Maybe I'll start poking around in the used market, or see if I can find
    a hole-in-the-wall that has an 8-r2r sitting around with dust on it.
    Thanks for the tips. 

-b

 ditto .10 
Peter, I think for that kinda bucks I'd skip the 6 track.  Without knowing
anything about much - I'd check out the 238 cassette.  Daddy's had it for
under $2k which means you can get it cheaper elsewhere and if that breaks
yoru budget you can build your own mixer for $30 until you save up for
a matching mixer.  Meanwhile for in the $1k range you can get used 8tracks.
-Tim

>    I'd like to be able to get by without buying another board (for at
>    least the time being), but am not sure what to expect in terms of
>    functionality loss; what am I out if I use the M160 as a console for
>    the short term?  (I figure I can swing $2k for the tape, but not the
>    extra ~$3k for the board). 

Well, it may sound like a canned answer, but in this case that what kind of
board you need really GREATLY depends on the kinds of things you do.

The M-160 is really a keyboard mixer; as opposed to a recording mixer, or
a PA mixer, etc.

I would say that if you do NOT plan on:

	o Recording the tape sync driven stuff onto the 8-track
	o Don't plan to do much live recording or any recording that
	  involves mixing several sources onto one track

that the M-160 will hold you at least for awhile in that you CAN use the
8-track and your keyboards to a reasonable extent.

The main problem (exacerbated by the bulletted items above) is that you can
expect to do a lot of patching when going from one mode of recording to
another.

Recording mixers generally have multi-busses and tape inputs.  

That is, each channel has two inputs: line and tape, and can be sent to
some number of submixes in the recording buss (some mixers even have separate
busses for monitoring but for us regular folk, that's a bit overkill).

	db

    re: .11
    
    >>> Blast.  3k is big beans for me.  Grump.  What I think I'm hearing is
    >>> around $2.5k for the 38, and another 500 for dbx, right? 
    
    I think you could do this for less than $3K.  I paid a bit less than
    that though not much.  However, the reason I mentioned the last
    Christmas Tascam "free dbx with purchase of a 38" was to encourage you
    to try this with your dealer.  Although not advertised now, a real
    customer waving $2200 for a 38 if you throw in the dbx like Tascam did
    last Christmas may do the trick for you.  And I don't think it's all
    that hard to find 38s for $2200.  I figure it's worth a try.

    >>> (if I remember right); reason I said something about not burning a
    >>> track to sync was because I remembered reading a blurb somewhere on a
    >>> new deck that's come out that does not require burning a track for sync
    >>> ... but I couldn't remember if it was FSK or SMPTE (I thought it was
    >>> the new Teac 8track cassette).  Ah well, memory.
    
    Oh, now I get it.  You're talking about the decks that have the special
    sync track built-in.  I've heard about these mostly on 2-track mixdown
    decks.  (I think they use the gap between the 2 tracks for this).  Off
    hand, I don't recall this feature on 8 tracks but if I see mention of
    it in any of the magazines at home, I'll post it here.
    
    Oh yes, and about my statement that MTP needs 2 MIDI interfaces.  I
    should have made it clear that this holds true for the Mac version of
    MTP.  I don't know anything about the Atari version.  Sorry if that
    confused you.
    
    Enjoy!
    
    - John -

    
    
    I have been getting by fairly succesfully with a Fostex M80(dolby
    c) Tascam m216, Cooper PPS1, Boss BX16 combination.
    
    The M80 is clever in that it doesn't need an 8 buss mixer to drive
    the 8 tape channels. It works out for itself that if you are trying
    to record onto track 7 and there is nothing plugged into track 7
    then it takes the feed from input buss 3. The inputs are on phonos
    which makes this something of a feat. How does it know ? I use the
    16 channel/2 effects Bx16 (300 pounds) for all the midi-gear which
    comes into the mixer through the stereo effects return. Which leaves
    the 216 for all accoustic and tape mixing. 
    
    Works well !
    
    M216 can be had for 650 (second user)
    Bx16                300
    M80                 1000
    pps1                100  = 2050 pounds for 32 input channels and
    				            bags of flexibility.                                                                
    
                
    						Paul.

re: Pro results from a cassette:

Have you heard anything done on a 238 (done by someone who understands the 
knobs and switches)? I heard several tracks done by a fellow who aparantly knows 
his stuff...results were as good as any 8 track I've ever heard. 

I'd check the 238 very seriously, actually I have been.

dbii

    I just checked out the Keyboard reviews of the 238 and the MT-8R (Toa)
    8track cassettes (Nov 88).  Seems that they're somewhat leery of track
    dropout (as was I before I read the article ... now I'm *real*
    uncertain). 

    List on the 238 is $2300 - the Toa goes for $2150.  Assuming that the
    238 can be had somewhere for $1700 (around 25% off), that might not be
    a bad deal ... however, the mixer problem still persists, as the 238
    has none. 

    Also checked out the Sansui unit (Keyboard again) ... definitely enough
    nits for the price that I don't want to fool with it. 

    I may take your advice about the money-waving, John.

    Pointers on the board are well taken, db ... but I've only so much to
    spend.  Unless the used market opens up around here, I'll have to hope
    for the habit to start paying for itself ... 

-b

    >>> List on the 238 is $2300
    
    I think the list price dropped to $2000 in April or May.  Of course,
    that may just mean that discounts will be leaner.  I only mention it
    because it appeared that you got the list price from the Nov. 88
    Keyboard yet I've noticed Tascam advertising the drop in price more
    recently.
    
    - John -

       The retail price of the Tascam 238 has been dropped to $1799
    a savings of $500, as of June 89. 

    Thanks for the recommendations.

    Given my current budgetary considerations, I decided to go with the 238
    instead of the 38 or the new TSR-8.  While the 238 doesn't have the
    frequency response of the reel decks, it's lots cheaper to own AND to
    operate (10x� reels are expensive and take up more room). 

    For those interested, the 38 has been officially discontinued
    (according to Teac), although the DX4Ds (dbx boxes) will still be
    manufactured.  Chuck Levin's in Washington DC is blowing out 38s for
    $1895, not including dbx units (you'll need 2).  Still, s/n ratio of a
    straight 38 is 74db, which is better than the new Fostex R8 WITH Dolby
    C (72 db). 

    The TSR8 is the replacement for the 38 ... same reel size, but with
    built-in dbx, and the same transport control features that are found
    on the 238.  It has a few more synchronization options than the
    238 (don't know what they are).  List is $3499.

    Interestingly enough, Teac does NOT recommend metal tapes for use in
    the 238, but rather TDK-SA(x), Maxell UDXL-II, or Denon HD(?). 

    For more info on the 238, see November '88 Keyboard.

-b

    Somewhere in the conference we had a good shout about the relative
    merits of (cheapish)DBX and (cheap)Dolby-C. Interestingly, a review
    of the latest 8-tracks from Tascam and Fostex (in Sound on Sound) 
    criticises the Tascam for dodgy DBX...
    
    Richard.

 re: Denon HD

Awesome tape! In my 234 or my regular deck it blows TDK-SA or Maxell UDXL-II
or even UDXL-IIS away....

IMHO of course

dbii

    re .21 - I've never had any trouble with the dbx on may Tascam 38.
    
    But, then again, I've never had any trouble with any of my Roland
    gear either, unlike some other (apparently unlucky) COMMUSICians.
    
    len.
    

    Well, I can't comment on dx4ds, and I certainly don't want to start
    another riot over dbx vs. dolby, but I can say for certain that the
    Keyboard report that dinged the 238's dbx was (at best) picky. 

    I recorded several very percussive tracks into the 238 last night just
    for grins, and they were every bit as crisp recorded as they were live.
    According to the manual, there are a couple of widgets being used to
    'liven up' the circuitry (perhaps a response to Keyboard's review). 

    Anyway, the things records percussion wonderfully.  It's hard to
    believe that 8 tracks on a cassette can sound this good.  I A/B'd the
    tape/source, and couldn't tell any difference at all. 

    FWIW - Caruso's did the thing for $1360, with no haggling.  I'm
    a very satisfied customer.  These guys know their stuff.

-b

    Are TASCAM 4-tracks better generally quality wise ect. than Fostex?
    I will soon be in the market for a 4-track, i read lots of reviews
    ect. 10 years ago i had a 144 Porta studio which i liked alot, but
    The design of the Fostex equipment looks appealing to me and from
    what i have heard, Fostex users seem happy. I'd be interested in
    any insight to this delema!
    
    jay
    

    Based on my late acquisition activities, the general concensus from
    people I talked to was that Tascam is the superior tape machine, not
    only from a features standpoint, but also from an internal construction
    point of view. 

    They supposedly use heavier bearings, chassis, and heavier duty motors
    than other mfgrs (including Fostex).  My biggest gripe about Fostex
    machines is their insistance on using Dolby NR ... I think dbx beats
    the socks off Dolby ... but that's another donnybrook that's been
    hashed out before. 

    Give you an idea of what you're look at pricewise (assuming reel
    decks)

	Fostex R8 - 7" reels, �" tape, 8 tracks, Dolby C, transport
	controls are detachable (nice touch).  Can be had for
	$2200-2300 depending on where you look.

	Tascam TSR8 - 10" reels, �" tape, 8 tracks, dbx type II, 
	may purchase external transport controls, auto punch-in/out,
	rehersal mode, 2 memories, external sync.  Can be had for around
	$2500-$2500 depending on where you look (list $3495).

    Good luck.

-b

    thanks. you answered my question. I was most concerned with the
    internals of the machines. I have never heard dbx, but most people like
    it better than dolby. I don't feel i would be taking a chance going
    with a dbx machine. 
    
    The reason i put this reply in here is because a salesman told me that
    there wasn't that big of a difference between the Tascam Porta 05 and
    the Fostex x26 or whatever, it was all in how you used it. That may
    be true for lots of people, but I have to believe there is a big
    difference between dbx and dolby. 
    
    Actually i could live with dbx or dolby, but if a machine is built to
    hold up longer i would lean towards that machine even though the fostex
    machines would probably do me ok also. I like laying on tons of tracks,
    i've heard dbx is good for that!
    
    thanks
    
    jay

    
    
    If it's 4 track you are talking about then Yamaha are also featuring
    in this market place these days. Check out the MT3x? lots of features
    like auto punch and shuttle and built like a tank.
    
    				Paul.
    

    Yes -- many comments on larger, 8+ track machines may not apply to the
    porta-type machines. I think build quality is not top-notch in any of
    the cassette-based 4-tracks -- maybe because at this level price is
    absolutely crucial. And the DBX argument, too, was probably led into
    a rathole because low-end DBX/DOLBY differences are probably
    incomparable with noice reduction units costing a small fortune.
    
    Richard.

    reply: last 2
    
    ahhh, Yamaha. i've seen adverts for their machines and they do look
    nice. I don't know is there is a Yahama dealer in the southern NH area.
    The only place i've shopped at is Daddys. I Kinda want to buy from a
    dealer where i can get it fixed. I'm sure this is an issue with lots of
    people like me who havent lived here long and don't know all the music
    dealers. 
    
    re: last
    
    Have you seen the Yahama MT100? its a bare bones model, but it looks
    good.
    
    Thanks for the information. i hope there are other people reading that
    have these same questions. 
    
    jay

    Jay, if you're looking for a 4 track cassette type deck, you'll be hard
    pressed to do better than Yamaha.  

    Like (PK?) said earlier, the porta-units just aren't built as solidly
    as the more expensive models (my friend has an MT2X, and my old 144
    makes it look like a cheap toy).  While the construction is pretty
    cheesy, the sound isn't - it's a nice box.

    The MT2X has built-in dbx, a 4 channel buss (ie, you can record all 4
    channels at once) and a pretty nice (albeit small) built-in mixer).  I
    don't know about the tape speed.  I think the MT3X has auto punch-in &
    out as well as a few other transport whistles.  The MT2X sounds very
    nice (somewhere between my 144 and the 238). 

    It seems to me that my friend got his a year ago for around $500. I
    don't know if that's a good deal or not.  And being in northwest Ohio,
    I can't tell you much about NH dealers.  However, if you're willing
    to go mail-order, Byron at ProFound Sound (800-63-SOUND) or Dave
    at Caruso's (203-442-9600) can usually get you good deals.

-b

    I have a Yamaha MT2X and love it!!  Depending on what the base note 
    author is planning to use the unit for, I think they might find
    either the MT2X or the MT3X a cost effective way to get into Multi-
    track recording.  The unit is easy to learn and use (the manual
    is excellent) and in two years of moderate use I have never experi-
    enced a glitch or mechanical problem.  I paid $675 for my MT2X,
    but you could probably get one now for a lot less.
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen

    Not that I know diddly about Yamaha 4-track stuff but it seems that
    "The Music Workshop" in Salem NH (down the road a bit from Daddy's and
    on the other side of that Street) is now a Yamaha dealer.  I was there
    last week and saw lots of new Yamaha gear.  Don't know if they have any
    4-tracks, though.
    
    - John -  (standard disclaimer applies)

    re:31  thanks for the information! so are you saying that the porta
           144 makes the yamaha look like a cheap toy? i just wanna be
           sure. thanks for the phone numbers and experience.
    
    	   I will check out The Music Workshop in Salem. The only place
    i've been to is daddys, i should shop around.
    
    After hearing these testimonies, i will look harder at the Yamaha
    stuff. I have a toy Yahama Porta cheapo keyboard and for what it is,
    the quality is quite good. Looks like this applies to their decks too!
    
    thank you
    -jay 
    
    

    
    	For Yamaha recording equip., try Ted Herbert's on Elm St.
    in Manchester, N.H.  My MT100 came from there through another
    dealer.   I haven't used it much, but I like it.  Great unit
    for approx.  $400.
    
    
    		Glenn
    

    Sonically, the MT blows the 144 out the door.  From a construction
    point of view, the 144 is highly superior.  But unless you're planning
    on using the thing for hours on end, the point is moot.

    I'd definitely check into the MT if I were you.

-b

    re:35 & 36
    
    I plan on "weekend use" for a few hours each week at most. so the MT
    should do me just fine. 
    
    I've never heard of Ted Herberts, have to check that place out. I live
    near nashua, don't know all the good music stores yet.
    
    thanks!!!!!!
    
    This conference is really a wealth of info and experience you cant find
    anywhere else. even in home recording magazine!

    Has anybody here heard of "Vestek" recorders? I'm not sure if the
    spelling is right, but I was told they have been making pre-amps and
    other studio equipment for some time. I was quoted some prices on some
    new multi-track cassette "mini-studios" they are coming out with, which
    sound attractive.
    
    	MR100	$349	bare bones 4-track recorder with the usual
    			mixer, eq, etc.
    	MR200	$439	MR100 plus hi-speed
    	MR100FX	$559	MR100 plus digital reverb
    	MR66	$1119	6-track cassette with lots of nice mixer features
    
    All of these use DBX noise reduction. The 4-tracks can only record on
    2 tracks at a time, which seems to be their major limitation. The MR66
    is supposed to be really nice and competitive with other 6-track
    mini-studios on the market.
    
    Based on the replies to this note I'm inclined right now to get a
    Yamaha, perhaps an MT-2X or MT-3X, rather than a a Tascam or Fostex, or
    one of these units, but I need to check out all of them. From what I
    can tell a second choice would be the Tascam or the Vestek because they
    use DBX (my price range is around $500 or under).
    
    Any comments?
    
    - Ram

I'm with Ram !

I'm looking to upgrade my old Ross 4x4.

Anyone had any experience with the Yamaha MT100 "II" ??
I guess it's new.  I also find that you can get them cheap,
like $350.

The one I saw was 4 track, 9 band EQ, DBX, two speed, stereo FX loop
etc...  Seemed like a REAL nice unit for the $$.

Any input would be appreciated.
jc

    Re: .38
    
    I think the current name is "Vestax", used to be "Vesta Fire", they
    were briefly in the stomp box business then jumped into el cheapo
    multitracks.
    
    Easily the worst ones out there but cheap, cheap, cheap...  If high
    quality and durability aren't main considerations, they might be OK.
    
    The 6-track's "mixer" is pretty primitive, just gain and pan, no EQ, FX
    sends, etc.  More like a monitor mixer; you'd want an external board to
    use with it.  
    
    							Brian

    
    I agree with Brian. Vestax is a Taiwanese line, on par with Pyramid and
    Gemini. The Yamaha isn't much more $$$ and is a better built machine.
    
    CdH
    

    Thanks for the comments on the Vestax, it sounds like for me it is to
    be avoided. There's so many of these units on the market it's really
    overwhelming. My goal is to find something for under $500 (I'd go a
    little higher if I absolutely have to), must have noise reduction
    (prefer DBX, Dolby C acceptable), dual speed, and 4-channel record.
    Beynd that I'm not too fussy. I already have a passable 4x2 mixer, so
    even that isn't a requirement (although I think it would be nice to
    have one built in. From what I've been able to find out so far I've
    pretty much narrowed my choices down to:
    
    	Yamaha MT100 II		($395, availability questionable)
    
    	MT2X			(no quote on this yet, I think around $500)
    
    	Fostex 160		(around $600)
    
    	Tascam 244		(used $399)
    
    The 244 would actually suit my needs nicely, but since they've been out
    of production for a couple of years it must be pretty old, and I'm
    hesitant to buy a tape deck that old when I don't know how it's been
    treated.
    
    The search goes on.
    
    - Ram

    The MT2X is no longer in production, as it has been replaced by the
    MT3X.  When it was around, you could find it new for about $500 or so.
    
    	Do you have a mixing board?  If so, You might consider the route
    I'm currently taking.  I just bought a Sansui MR6 rack-mount 6-track
    recorder.  I bought mine for $635 from Manny's in NYC.  I've been
    meaning to put a review of it in notes, but haven't gotten to it yet.
    
    	What you get is a very "no-frills", high quality 6-track deck.  It
    runs at double tape speed, uses dolby C, has sync track capability and
    can be expanded to a ten track deck via a special servo sync function.
    I have run initial tests on it and have been more than pleased with its
    ability to keep cross-talk from being a problem.  When Sansui first
    brought out the full ministudio version, the WSX1, most reviews gave it
    thumbs up on sound quality, but decried a few of the mixing board
    features (mostly around the built-in "reverb" - it was only a digital
    delay - that has since been changed to a true digital reverb, made by
    Boss).  With the MR6, you're bypassing all those complaints because
    you're only getting the multi-track portion.
    
    	If you're concerned about the lack of mixer, let me tell you how
    I've handled it...
    
    	First of all, I'm planning to use it only to record non-sequenced
    material, and run the sync track to and from the MC500.  That leaves me
    with 5 tracks to record acoustic material (voice, guitar, etc.).  I
    have an EV BK832 (8 X 2) mixing board, and it has channel inserts (i.e., the
    ability to patch anything into the channel right after the trim pad).
    I have built a little box that allows me to switch between allowing the
    loop to be closed (as it would be normally, if I hadn't inserted
    anything), or it can transmit and recieve anything I want it to by
    simply flipping the switch.  The box took a couple of evenings to
    complete and costs less than $20 (if memory serves correctly).  This
    gives me the functionality that a true recording board has - the
    ability to choose input source - instrument (input) or track.
    
    	The way it works is as follows;  (btw, I only plan to record two
    channels max at a time)  I "stripe" the sync track (i.e., record the
    sync signal from the MC500 for the song to be recorded) and then begin
    to record accoustic tracks one by one.  For instance, perhaps the first
    thing I want to do is record an acoustic guitar track.  I set my MC500
    to recieve clock from the sync track, I set levels such that I can
    listen (but not record) to the sequenced material and record the guitar
    track.  I flip the switch so that the channel loop on the guitar
    channel is closed (i.e., as if it wasn't beng patched into), and I set the 
    MR6 running.  I am using one or both of the two main outputs (Left and
    Right) to run into the track of my choice (1-5).  The MC500 runs so as to 
    give me the time context and the track is recorded (just guitar).  Then, to 
    hear it on playback, I flip the switch so that that channel the guitar was 
    playing into is now recieving intput from the tape, not the input from the 
    channel.  The MC500 plays back the sequenced material as before, but now my 
    recorded guitar part is playing along - in the same channel that it was 
    recorded on, with any EQ and fx that I want to add on that channel.  I've 
    just switched input source.
    
    	Now maybe this is all elemental stuff to you and every other
    reader, but for me, discovering that I didn't need to spend $1,000 on a
    mixing board was sure a nice discovery.
    
    	The only thing (in the above scenario) that I don't get is the
    ability to record six tracks at a time.  But it can be done.  The
    channel insert loops allow me to not only choose what comes back to the
    channel, but also it alows me to send a (preamplified) signal as well.
    When I switch to open mode on my switch box, I can route the signal
    through the channel input, through the trim pad (to adjust for level)
    directly to the six-track.  No changing of patch cords necessary.  Of
    course, this signal doesn't get the benefit of channel EQ and FX
    processing (unless I patch them in AFTER the switch box), but there are
    some who hold to the idea that these things should only be done upon
    mixdown, anyway.  What this gives me, in effect, is an 8 X 8 X 2
    recording board.  (I'd only need to have an 8 X 5 X 2, though).
    
    	If this is not clear, I can attempt a drawing upon request. 
    Anyway, the point of this explanation is to let you know that if you
    already own a board, you don't necessarily need to buy a "porta-studio"
    (that is, a multi-track deck with integral mixing board).  With this
    setup, I got exactly what I wanted - to spend the money on the quality
    of the deck alone and not repeat functionality I already have (i.e.
    mixer).  The price ($635) was less than the cost of Yamaha's MT3X (Sam
    Ash is selling the 3X for $679) and I get two additional tracks to boot
    (really nice if you plan on running any stereo images).
    
    	I hope this helps.  I, personally, think its a great way to go.
    
    	Dan
    
    

    
    Input source (guitar)   ---+
                               |  (channel input)
                               V 
    to track <_____         +---------(Mixing Board)---------+
                   \ 1/2    |  o                             |
                    >sw _   | trm pot     (the switch is a DPDT)           
                   /     \  |  |                             |
                   |      >-|-<+  <--- (this is the channel insert jack - it 
                   \     /  |  |   is a stereo jack that has both send and
              1/2 sw>---/   | (EQ)  recieve, as well as common)
    from trk>______/        |  |                             |
                            |  V                             |
                            | (FX)                           |
                            |  |                             |
                            |  V                             |
                            |  channel                       |
                            |  fader                         |
                            +--------------------------------+
    

    Thanks for the suggestion, I may look into that. As I said, I already
    have a 4x2 mixer that is probably as good as most of the ones in the
    mini-studios. And having 6 tracks isn't required for the stuff I'm
    doing right now, but I'm sure I'd find good uses for it in the future.
    
    The best thing I like about your idea is using the sync track to drive
    the MC-500. This would be very useful to me even if I go with a 4-track
    deck. Ultimately I'm putting together demo tapes that will have the
    sequenced material on 2 tracks (left and right stereo) and acoustic
    material (including vocals) on the other two tracks. The simple way to
    do this is lay down the sequenced tracks first, then dub on the
    acoustic tracks. But for some things I'd like to be able to do some
    pinging to get (effectively) more than 2 acoustic tracks. By using the
    sync track as you suggested I could do the following: record the sync
    track first, generate two acoustic track, mix them down to one, add
    two more acoustic tracks, then finally do a mix down onto a stereo
    deck, again driving the MC-500 from the sync track (I didn't mention
    that my 4x2 mixer is actually a 6x2 mixer, it's just that the other two
    inputs are "tape" inputs with a single level control and no eq, etc).
    
    In any case, nobody could probably care less about this except me (and
    maybe you), but I'm finding these suggestions helpful.
    
    - Ram

    
    
    	I'm looking for recommendations for 4 track machines 
    in the $400 to $500 range. I'll be using to record original
    non-sequenced (guitars, drums, bass, etc) type music. The
    $500 value is the absolute upper limit of my budget and
    around $400 is a much more realistic figure.
    
    	I'd also like recommendations on which features are most
    important to do the kind of recording as stated above. 
    
    	Some machines that have been pointed out to me are:
    	
    	Tascam Porta 05 (now available in 3-3/4 ips)
    	Yamaha MT100(?) - Rumored to have wow&flutter problems
    	Fostex X-26. 
    
    Thanks,
    
    -T
    

    Sounds like you're talking a "live" recording with a couple overdubs
    for guitar leads and vocal tracks.  I'd look for the following
    features:
    
    	o  hi-speed xport (3-3/4 ips)
    	o  dbx noise reduction
    	o  more than a 2-buss system (ie, can record all 4 trax at once)
    
    The MT-series isn't bad, but you have to watch the quality
    (wow/flutter).  If I were thinking about Tascam, I'd look at something
    other than a Porta-5.
    
    You might try checking the used market for a 244 or facsimile.  You
    should be able to get one in that price range - and, assuming the heads
    are in good shape, you'll have a well-built deck with good quality
    sound.
    
+b

    American Musical Supply has a couple package deals going:
    
    Tascam Porta-1, Teac ME-15 mic, Tascam CSP-1, Audio Technica H909
    headphones and 3 90 minute tapes - $595
    
    Fostex X-26, Teac ME-15 mic, Audio Technica H909 headphones and 
    3 90 minute tapes - $469
    
    I'm not familiar with the quality of either 4 track.
    
    Mike

    	There's a great deal going on in NYC (SAM ASH, specifically) for
    the SANSUI line of six track decks/accessories.  You can get the "all
    in one" recording workstation for $999 *or* if you already have a
    mixdown deck and digital reverb (which are included in the
    workstation), you can get both the MR6 rackmount 6-trak deck and the
    12X6X2 recording mixer for only $699.  I'm grinding my teeth that I
    didn't get my MR6 on this sale, but I'm definately going to pick up the
    mixer to go with it.  If you buy the MR6 and mixer separately, they're
    selling for somewhere around $369 and $389 respectively.
    
    	Dan
    

    I just recently purchased a Yamaha MT100II.  I was severely bummed
    out that when I went to use it I had a major flutter problem,
    documented elsewhere in this conference.
    
    However, now that I've gotten my hands on one that works correctly,
    I'm VERY happy with it.  Much more so than with other units I've played
    with in this price range (Ross, Fostex, Tascam etc...).  It's got all
    the features mentioned in an earlier reply, plus a stereo 5 band EQ,
    Zero-stop and FX loop (that works REALLY well!).
    
    The local dealer here mentioned that Yamaha recognizes the problem and
    are applyuing an ECO type doo-hicky to fix it.
    
    BTW - No slam on Tascam or Fostex, they are also great units...But the
    price of the yamaha makes it pretty tempting.  I'll keep you posted
    regarding the "eco doo-hicky".
    
    jc

    
    
    	Does anybody have any data on the Tascam 424? It's supposed
    to be a 4 track machine that is going to replace the Porta 1.
    
    	The guy I deal with at Daddy's (Nashua) says it has all
    the features of the Porta 1 plus some extras. It also has 
    a lower price tag than the Porta 1. I didn't have time to
    quiz him but if it's true, the Porta 05 I just got is going 
    back to help finance the 424! :-)
    
    	FWIW, Daddy's was expecting some around the middle of this
    month, which means any day now.