Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    This topic will serve as a repository for gripes and comments about the
    conference, as well as questions for the moderators. 

    Have at it.

-b

    Brad,
    	How about a topic for musicians to find other musicians. (ie:
    band seeks keyboardist for studio work, must be into Olivia Newton
    John, and vintage Tony Orlando) 
    
    	Does anyone else see an need for this besides me? 
    
    	regards,
    	keep up the good work!
    		Mark
    

    I'll wait for opinions from the rest of the conference. 

-b

> < Note 14.2 by LEDDEV::HASTINGS >
>                           -< musician wanted topic? >-

Yes, I'd like  to see that.  Or perhaps just make the "Items Wanted" topic more
   generic, like "Wanted, Items or Situations".

/Mitch

    I'd like to see a set of topics dedicated to software. For example,
    all editor/librarians and sequencer packages for Macintosh would
    be in one topic, Atari ST would have its own topic, etc. This would
    make it easy to reference and compare the different software on
    the market. 

    Dan

    I'd prefer to the see the "Musicians Wanted" note read something like
    
    
    	See note #11 ("Musicians Wanted") in DREGS::MUSIC 
    
    That way, maybe those of us who read most of the music-related
    conferences won't have to read the same ad a half a dozen or so times, 
    nor have to look in a half-dozen different places when we're looking
    for people as well.
    
    	db

> < Note 14.6 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Yo!" >
>                    -< Suggestion on "Musicians Wanted" note >-
>     I'd prefer to the see the "Musicians Wanted" note read something like
>     	See note #11 ("Musicians Wanted") in DREGS::MUSIC 

hmmm.  is this a pointer to the music  conference?    personally I don't
     like this idea.  Commusic is the only conference I read and I don't
     want  to  have  to  go  to  a  different  conference  to check  the
     "Musicians Wanted" listing periodically.  Besides, I'm really  only
     interested in "Commusicians Wanted". 

/Mitch

RE: musicians wanted

    Since there's already a topic in the MUSIC conference, it seems silly
    to duplicate the info here.  If anyone is looking for work (or for
    players), why not just open/nonote DREGS::MUSIC (when it doesn't puke)
    and read the appropriate topic? 

    As this activity (looking for someone to play for/with) should be
    fairly low-level (ie person A isn't going to be looking every other
    day), I see no problem with a pointer to another conference. 

RE: Dan Powell (equipment summaries /reviews /etc)

    From a moderator perspective, it's gonna be awful hard to keep
    something like this in one place.  Just look at the MTP note; there are
    lots of little caveats that can be taken on a review.  Imagine having
    one note dedicated to *all* sequencing packages. 

    What I had hoped to do was create a topic directory of the conference
    every month or so - that way, you could extract one (admittedly rather
    large) note and search it for, say, "SEQUENCER" and find several notes
    under that topic (MC500, MTP, PR100, QX5, etc).  I think I can write a
    tool to do this pretty easily (come on, TECO!) ... but I'll know more
    later. 

    Does that sound like an acceptable solution?

-b

RE: .7

    Uhm, Dave?  Were you going to say something?  ;-}

-b

 At least this reorganization is giving us all kinds of new info to read.:-)
CHad

    Somehow note .7 got permanently "note .7 is being written".
    
    I wanted to request a note that always contains a "recent" (however
    often the moderator has time for) directory of Commusic.
    
    Doing a DIRECTORY takes forever and beats on the host system.  It
    would be much better just to have a note already composed with a
    Commusic directory. 
    
    It would make things easier to find, thus you would probably have less
    note relocating to do.
    
    	db

    Does anyone use keywords in this conference?  There have been a few
    efforts in the past to attach them to topics; if they're not being
    used, I'd kind of like to redo the way they're implemented. 

    Even if they are in use, I intend to clean them up a bit.  Let me know. 

-b

    I try to use them, but they're usually not attached to the note
    I'm looking for...
    
    Edd

I never use them and probably never will.  I use dir/title="technotopic"
     all the time  though  and  probably will continue to do so.  I urge
     people to use descriptive titles as much as possible.

/Mitch

    I'd use them, if they helped me find what I'm looking for.  Right now,
    they're largely neglected by people writing notes and thus usually
    are just a waste of time.
    
    	db

    
    I have tried to use them and set them. Both are frustrating.
    
    If we keep them, how about setting some standards?
    
    Like, if the keyword is a product name, use the correct one
    (i.e. HR-16 instead of HR16, HR_16, Alesis_HR_16)... Attach the
    manufacturer's real name (Ensoniq <> Ensonique) and stop attaching
    random keywords to topics.
    
    /pjh

    Well.  I guess I ought to reword the question, then ...

    If you *had* reasonable keywords to use and attach to topics/replies,
    would you do it?  I've given a good deal of thought to the keyword
    issue - and frankly, it just doesn't make a great deal of sense to have
    a seperate keyword for every device known to man.  The list is already
    unmanageable (in addition to being inconsistent), and I suspect that no
    one uses them for these (and other reasons).  Keywords should be easy
    to remember and generic enough to cover a broad base of topics with a
    minimum of words to remember.  Otherwise, I won't moderate 'em and no
    one will use 'em. 

    I've posted a potential list of keywords to the next reply.  I've
    attempted to arrange them in a kind of hierarchy, using the current
    keyword list.  I've broken them down into "words" and "subwords", the
    latter of which is a breakdown of the main word.  I'd be interested to
    hear what you think. 

-b

I use the keywords all the time, and have tried to add them to notes that
stuck to the topic. There is nothing wrong with having multiple similar
keywords all attached to the same note D50, D-50, D_50. All you have to
do is show keywords/full to find out which notes they are, and a topic
was created recently that had the output of that list in it. It makes for
a very useful index, and I wish more people would use them. If you start
deleting and modifying existing keywords and their assignments to notes
you will have to read every reply to make sure that the keywords were
valid. If you delete keywords it will become impossible to find the notes
they were assigned to. I've already lost track of most of the D110 notes
because the keywords were deleted. Sometimes the topic title is general
and various pieces of gear are discussed within the topic. If you change
the keyword to some general thing like "rackmount", we'll never be able
to find the D110 notes without reading every reply. If you change the
keywords or delete them, I will probably stop using them altogether.

dave

    Blast.  Can't get in 2 replies without someone sneaking in.  You were
    waiting, weren't you Dave? 

    I've tried to be consistent.  For example, there are no hypenated words
    in the list (eg, HR-16 would be HR16, if it were there).  There are too
    many potential variations on a theme.

    Note that all words in the list are keywords.  Combination upper &
    lowercase words are subwords, in an attempt to lend some order to this
    madness. 

    Here's the list.  Comments please. 


COMMUSIC	Review, Rebuttal

COMPUTERS	Amiga, Apple, AtariST, C64, C128, IBM, Macintosh, UserGroup,
		Yamaha 

EFFECTS		Compressor, Delay, Harmonizer, Limiter, MultiFX, Reverb 

MANUFACTURERS	AudioTechnica, Akai, AKG, Alesis, ARP, ART, Beyer, Casio,
		Deltalab, Digitech, DOD, Dr. T, Electrovoice, Emu, Ensoniq,
		Fairlight, Fostex, Furman, Hammond, Kahler, Kawai, Keytek,
		Korg, Kurzweil, Moog, Oberheim, OpCode, Paradigm, Passport,
		PPG, Roland, Sequential, Shure, Steinberg, Tascam, Teac,
		Technics, UltimateSupport, USS, Yamaha 

MIDI		Controller, Drum, Guitar, Patchbay, Rack, Sampler, Sequencer,
		Stand, Switch, Synth 

OTHER		LEDSBIM, NAMM

PAGEAR		Amplifier, Lighting, Microphone, Mixer, Monitor

RECORDING	2Track, 4Track, 8Track, 16Track, CD, DAT, dbx, Dolby,
		Mastering, Studio, Tape, Tapesync, SMPTE, VCR 

SOFTWARE	Editor, Librarian, Patch, Sequencer

    What's a "page-ar"?  ;^)
    
    LEDS-BIM is now LERDS-BIM.  Or LERDSBIM, dehyphenated.
    
    Not all replies to COMMUSIC reviews are "rebuttals".
    
                            
    len.
    

    One additional suggestion which I've found very useful in other
    conferences is having the 'directory' topic, which would contain
    a current directory of the conference, split into replies of about
    50 or so entries.  This allows you to use SEARCH/NOTE=dir-note TOPIC,
    then scroll through the single reply, rather than having to wait
    for a whole EXTRACT (or EXT/BUFFER) to pull out the entire directory
    note.  In my experience, this seemed to help.
    
    gh

RE: .21

    Page-R is the name of Fairlight's sequencer.  ;^)�

-b

I have an announcement to make.

Could the moderator create a "demo/gig/commusic event announcements"
     topic for me to put it in?

/Mitch

    SYS-F-ACCVIO...
    
    Symbolic stack dump follows....
    
    Edd

    Sorry, guys.

    Don't know what the deal was, but the file became corrupt yesterday
    sometime.  Looks like Mr. Jim had it restored sometime yesterday
    evening. 

    Talk about sweating bullets - I thought that all my hard works had gone
    to heck in a handbasket ... {whew} 

-b

    Well, it's finally been done.  All the old For Sale notes have been
    deleted.  A few notes had progressed into more than just "for sale"
    topics - the titles on these have been changed to reflect the content
    of the topic. 

    Next - keywords!  Then maybe I can get the topical directory thing
    working. 

    Oh yeah - any requests for old topics (before today) should be
    requested via mail.  I have most of the stuff I've deleted somewhere
    down here. 

-b

    I've taken the liberty of deleting the last 5 or so responses under
    this topic.  If you want to whine or bait, do it under one of the 5000
    other topics already "dedicated" to that activity, not this one. 

    {grumble}

-b

    
    Here's my gripe:
    
    In the FOR SALE topic, I think the author of the for sale ad should
    be able to delete his own ad. Is there any reason for the author
    of a topic (or reply) to NOT be able to delete his/her own? 
    
    Mike D

The author of a note CAN delete his/her own note or reply, provided that
     he/she uses the  DELETE  command  while  logged onto the same exact
     node that the original note/reply was written from.  If this is not
     possible, then only the moderator can delete the note.

/Mitch

    And provided that he or she entered it in the right place (the "for
    sale" note).  If they didn't, the moderator had to "move" it, but
    since there is not (yet) a move command, the moderator does this
    by creating a reply under his own account, so the "author" is
    technically the moderator.
    
    Note that if you regular access Commusic from several accounts you
    might want to prevail upon Brad to create a special "member" for
    you that will allow you to access Commusic from several nodes as
    if they were all the same person.
    
    For example, if I wanted to access Commusic from nodes DRIPS and DRABS,
    Brad would CREATE MEMBER BLICKSTEIN/NODES=(DRIPS,DRABS).  This would
    allow DRABS::BLICKSTEIN to delete notes created from DRIPS::BLICKSTEIN
    and vice versa.
    
    	db
    
    P.S. A true "move" command for VAX NOTES is being field tested. 
    	 This'll make things a lot easier for us moderators.

    The move command is good news.   If there's a note that needs blasted
    and you can't get at it, send me mail and I'll try to get to it. I'm
    going to be a bit less visible in the next two months, given two
    project wrap ups and some much needed vacation. 

-b

    Seems that there have been lots of notes lately on "closeout price on
    xxx is $$$", or "what's a good price on xxx"?  Would it be useful to
    dedicate a topic to this so we don't have 50,000 what's the best price
    notes? 

    Suggested title - "Best Price - Updates and Inquiries".  Comments? 

-b (who's been very busy of late)

    ...only works if it gets used. Seems to me that most of the "violators"
    (nothing dirogatory intended) are relative newcomers to the file.
    
    Edd

    How is this stated need not satisfied by the DECMS BBOARD?
    
    	db

    Because the DECMS BBoard isn't ever updated.  &*}

-b

    No offense taken.
    
    But the DECMS BBOARD is 100% up-to-date and generally has been.
    
    In order to "update" it, people have to send me "updates".  People
    haven't been doing it.
    
    I think what you are proposing is EXACTLY what DECMS BBOARD was
    supposed to do.  The difference between what you've proposed and
    the DECMS BBOARD is that there will be no formal process to submit
    the information, and thus no process to ORGANIZE it.
    
    If you think that'll work (people will post prices), I'd say go for it.
    I'd sorta like to get rid of the DECMS BBOARD updater job anyway.
    I'm overcommitted to NOTES activities.
    
    	db

    Ok, Dave.  I know what you mean by being over-committed.  Let's go
    ahead and use the DECMS BBOARD topic for this stuff.  In the meantime,
    if you ever *do* get time to update the board, I'll post a new notice
    telling people where to look for price quotes - that is, if *I*
    ever get time. 

-b

    > if you ever *do* get time to update the board
    
    I know I wasn't clear in my first message, but if people would send
    me updates, I will promptly update the board.  That's a promise.
    
    What I don't promise to do is go out and do a telephone price survey
    on equipment I have no need of.   
    
    In other words, the board's activity will be measured by people's 
    participation in it.  Not by my availability of time.
    
    	db

RE: LAST FEW ON PRICE Info

One concern of mine about the DECMS BBOARD price list is that it is hard
to spot new items.  For example, though it hasn't been posted yet, an upcoming
BBOARD should have two things I sent to Dave.  The following,

Yamaha TX16W sampler has been lowered to $1195 at daddy's junky music (yes, I
did get credit from them on my higher price :-) 
and
the Casio DH100 digital horn (that plastic sax thing) is on sale now at
Caldors per their latest Sunday Paper insert for $99.99.  

My point is, how many people would have spotted these things in the BBOARD
amongst the multiple screens of old july-august type stuff.  Maybe the
better policy would be to have a topic where anybody can post prices they
find or to have people add to the appropriate topic (TX16W price in TX16W
note, Casio price in Casio note, etc.)  And Dave would be free this job.

Chad

    Ok - topic 16 is reserved for "hot off the press" prices. Maybe this
    will make it easier to compile the DECMS list. 

    PLEASE use 16 to post prices, and not per-item topics, as prices are
    subject to change.  There's no sense in mixing up dollars with
    technical discussions without just cause.
    
-b

    In the DEWCMS BBOARD I have noted new entries with change bars.
    
    I'll endorse the idea of note 16, but I believe that it reduces
    the need for timely updates of the BBOARD since the BBOARD is
    nothing but the same information organized as a reference.
    
    So I will be "batching" updates to the BBOARD (perhaps every two
    weeks or so) and taking input from note 16 as updates to the BBOARD.
    
    Of course, ideally, people would just update the BBOARD themselves
    and post "notable prices/new products" in the beginning of the
    BBOARD.   That seems like dreaming though.
    
    	db

    Not that it should be posted here, but I'll be on vacation for the next
    three weeks.  So don't expect much moderation (ahem) from me during
    that period. 

    As an aside, we've had quite a nice Christmas surprise already - we're
    expecting our 2nd in July. 

    A very good CHRISTmas to you all, and will see you in January sometime.

-b

    Sssssaaayy, Brad, you wouldn't be going OUT OF TOWN for the holidays,
    would you ?
    
    (evil laugh with reverb)
    
    karl

    Hey, so the cat's going away ...
    
    Steve :-}

    From 1815.52 (Machin)
    
    > When is the moderator going to step in and squash this?
    
    Edd, Dan and I are all good friends, there have been no hostilities,
    etc.  About the most we're guilty of is deviating from the topic
    of the note, but that deserves "moving" not "squashing".
    
    Tell me... what exactly is the nature of your objection?
    
    Are you not interested in this debate?  Fine.  I'm not interested
    in discussions about the CZ-101 because I don't have one.  I don't
    go around asking the moderator to squash discussions about CZ-101's
    however.
    
    Give me your justification for "sqashing" it instead of moving it?
    
    I take the time to writ ethis because I see this happen so often in
    MUSIC and lots of other conferences: That is, there are some folks who
    seem to think that even the most well-conducted debate is somehow
    inappropriate.  Or perhaps they see a "fight" where none exists.
    
    Debates are perfectly acceptable in NOTES and make for good
    and (to many of us) FUN conversation.  
    
    When debates turn into fights, that's when you have problems but 
    that rarely occurs in this file.  I consider COMMUSIC exemplary
    in that regard.
    
    	db

    What he said.
    
    For those who aren't interested, you can exercise your "squash"
    key (KP').
    
    Edd

    
    Just seems from the outside that a straightforward note about the
    M1 turned into yet another ego clash where each of the friends involved
    seeks to have the last word.
    
    In fact, if it was a last word it would be o.k. But it's usually
    a last several lengthy paragraphs, largely repeating what has been
    said before. Witness the objection to my objection!
    
    Richard.

    .51> Just seems from the outside that a straightforward note about the
    .51> M1 turned into yet another ego clash 

    .50> What he said.
    
    Indeed, this is exactly what I said:
    
    .49> Some folks see a "fight" were none exists.
    
    Richard,
    
    I think you are simply reading intentions and motivations into what was
    said that simply were not there.
    
    You made what I believe is the classic mistake behind 90% of all
    genuine notes problems: you assume the worst of intentions in
    people rather seeking a possible explanation based on the
    best of intentions.
    
    I could give you a long social psychology expose on why I think 
    THAT is *so* important notes but I'll spare people that (or direct
    them to the MODERATORS conference where I intend to publish that
    treatise).
    
    	db

    Actually, perhaps there was some ego clashing, especially in what's
    going on now.  However, I think it could be more appropriately
    described as "a friendly game of one-upsmanship" that was actually
    intended to inject a little HUMOR (not ego clash) into the proceedings.
    
    Anyway, rest assured that Edd and I remain the best of friends
    despite his kinky urges to piss on me.  ;-)
    
    Perhaps we both need to be a bit more free with our smiley faces.
    
    	db - who's getting a bit too silly this close to Xmas.

    ...and lest you all think that Dave isn't a willing partner to
    some of my perverted passions, be aware he's buying me a beer
    at LERDS-BIM tonite!!!
    
    Those of you who think this interchange has been a waste of time
    should avoid LERDS-BIM like the plague. We LIVE for this.
    
    Merry Christmas all, I'm outta here for the week...
    
    Edd

    What is the status of putting the directory listing into that
    dedicated note (2?).  I would like to use it if/when it is done.
    Thanks,
    Tim
    

    I'll get to it one of these days, Tim.  I'm just getting back from 3
    weeks off (no, Karl, I didn't go anywhere [evil laugh returned]).

    You guys sure had a heck of a run in the M1 vs. Kurzweil note, eh?
    Can't afford to leave for a minute, can I?  8-}

    Len - did you sucessfully produce any new drum machine hybrids? 

    Anyway, it's nice to be back.

-b

Re: Note 1.1 "Welcome to Commusic"

Very well done,  Brad.    I LIKE that introductory note.  one correction
     though...

>    DECMS - Digital Equipment Computer Music Society, an informal group

I made this mistake once before.  It's actually Digital *Employees*, not
     Digital *Equipment*.

/Mitch

Keep up the darn good work. Boy did I miss you for the past 3 weeks.

    Thanks, Mitch.  I took your advice and revised 1.1. 

-b

    It appears that people are NOT bothering to read the conference notice,
    so I'll repost it: 

	NEW NOTERS: Read topic 1.1.  For Sale Topic is 12.

    It also appears that people who are bothering to the notice are not
    bothering to read 1.1.  Please do so.  Better yet, EXTRACT it to a file
    and paste it on your cube wall.  In the meantime:

	USE MANUFACTUER NAMES IN TITLES OF NEW TOPICS.

	DON'T USE HYPHENS (-) IN PRODUCT NAMES (D50, NOT D-50).

	LOOK FOR THE TOPIC BEFORE ENTERING A NEW ONE!!!!!!!  USE
	DIR/TITLE OR EXTRACT TOPIC 2.2 AND USE THE dcl search COMMAND!!!!

    I'm not sore at any one individual.  I wouldn't make a big deal about
    it, but it just took me 2 hours to clean up the mess since Monday on.
    And you were all doing so well (sigh).

-b the grump

    Regarding all this stuff about the "hot price" topic.
    
    I have been asked "OK, what constitutes a 'hot price'"?  Or really
    what do I think is appropriate to post there.  This is a legitimate
    question.
    
    This is my idea of guidelines for posting in the "hot price" topic:
    
    Mainly, you should have some reason to believe that this is a really
    good deal.   Some example "reasons":
    
    	1) A sudden price reduction (like on the MKS-20's a year ago)
    
    	2) A sale price that is significantly lower than the normal
    	   price
    
    	3) A price that is significantly lower than some other price
    	   you may have already seen
    
    	4) A demo unit being sold at a significant discount
    
    A normal sticker price can usually be presumed not to be "hot".  If
    you know otherwise however.
    
    To me, the problem with the posting in question was NOT that someone else
    found a much lower price, but that there's was no particular reason to
    believe that it was a good price.
    
    I don't think units that are normally not kept in stock are
    particularly should go in the "hot price" note if they're being
    sold for "normal" price.  This is especially true if they can
    be easily be ordered for that price anytime.
    
    And if you don't agree with the above, I would certainly implore
    to make an INDICATION that this is NOT a "hot" price.
    
    One thing I want to avoid is having someone read that (fictitious
    example) so and so is selling HR-16's at $450 (a absolutely ho-humm
    price) and be mislead into thinking that's a "hot price", going to
    his local store and saying "I want an HR-16 and I'm not gonna pay
    more than $425", buying it, and having the salesman laugh once he's
    out the door cause he knows that the real going price is significantly
    less.
    
    For one thing, EVERY store always has a few items not regularly
    kept in stock, which one should note is usually stuff they're anxious
    to move.  We could flood that note with such items from  everyone's
    favorite store.
    
    Does any of this seem unreasonable?
    
    	db

    Not at all.  In fact, it seems quite reasonable - too reasonable, in
    fact.  I was always of the impression that the purpose of the hot
    quotes topic was threefold: 

	a) significant price drops in a piece of equipment

	b) an unusually good price on a piece of gear (new or used),
	   regardless of the location found

	c) special sales going on at dealership 'x'

    It seems that this issue is generating more heat than light.  In the
    meantime - U wanna co-moderator job, db?  &*}

-b

    Would it help if people posted List price as well as "hot" price.
    I like to work in %. It seems to be a much better indicator of a
    good deal.
    
    
    					Mark
    

This is a suggestion for helping to find notes referring to specific topics
or pieces of equipment. We went around and around about the use of keywords
some time ago. I hope that won't happen this time. I'm very glad to see that
the keywords are pretty much intact. I think Brad has done an excellent job
of cleaning up this notes conference and making it much more useable as a
reference source. Here is how I use keywords:

SHOW NOTE <topic_number.reply_number>/KEY   shows you the current keywords for
   					    a note

SHOW KEY/FULL			     lists all keywords and related notes

SHOW KEY m*/FULL		     lists all keywords beginning with "m"
				     and their related notes

SHOW KEY EPS/FULL		     lists all notes which have keyword "EPS"

ADD KEY <keyword> <topic_number.reply_number>      adds a keyword to that note

This really helps me find desirable topics and replies fast. The more keywords
for cross-referencing the better. For instance, if I am looking for topics and
replies about Ensoniq products and there is an EPS note, I would like to see
that note have keywords ENSONIQ, EPS. That way, if I'm looking for EPS
specific notes, I'll find it. If I'm looking for general Ensoniq notes, I'll
still find it. Having multiple keywords is really a great way to cross-index
a topic/reply. It really doesn't matter if it's D-50 or D50. It's easy to
find out which one was used or is valid by using SHOW KEY, and if both are
applied to the same note, you will find it either way.

This has been very helpful for me, and is just a suggestion. If you like the
idea, please add keywords to your topics/replies. Nothing detrimental will
happen if you don't use keywords, except that users of keywords won't easily
find the information unless the title is specific. A DIR/TITLE takes a great
deal longer to find a note since it has to search text strings for a match.

dave

    I might add that you should use wildcards (asteriks "*") liberally
    for the SHOW KEY command.
    
    For example,  SHOW KEY ESQ1 will not match ESQ-1, nor ESQ_1, nor
    ENSONIQ_ESQ-1, etc. etc.
    
    I usually pick the minimal spelling that is common to all conceivable
    spellings and surround it with asteriks.
    
    Like SHOW KEY *ESQ*.
    
    If I was looking for stuff on sampling, I'd say SHOW KEY *SAMP*
    (which would match both SAMPLING and SAMPLER, etc.
    
    	db

    Thanks for the kudos, Dave O.

    Believe it or not, I had fully intended to go back thru all the
    existing notes and apply keywords (probably woulda meant writing some
    SCAN code). 

    Anyway, I just plain ran out of time, and still don't have much. Anyone
    who would like to go thru and add keywords (even randomly) feel free to
    do so.  My only request is that keywords conform to the conference
    titling standards - eg, D110, NOT D-110 or D_110. 

    That reminds me ... I know several folks who moderate conferences (and
    are VAXnotes heavies) who have mentioned the fact that a large
    conference is not only prone to weird errors, but is also much slower
    (in terms of access time).  Last I looked, this conference was almost
    60,000 blocks (!), which is pretty large for a notesfile. 

    What I'm saying is, whether we like it or not, we may end up being
    forced into archiving this thing and opening a new one before too awful
    long.  I don't have the cycles or the wherewithall to try and rebuild
    this thing if it gets sick.  Just a thought.

-b

    
    Brad - you may try compressing the sucker first before taking the
    more drastic archive route. You may not get much less disk space,
    but conceivably, it could get more efficient via a compress. Just
    wip up a little batch job - post notice of down for the weekend
    and let it rip - oh, and hope the result is not r.i.p...
    
    bs

    All things in moderation.. including moderation

    karl (yes, in on saturday |-{  )

From off the USENET, it's not music related, but it is computer related.
I hope this survives the Topic Police (that's a gripe). Why do I now feel
that I have to justify every entry in this conference? Could that be a
cause for the lack of activity?

(A few nights ago, I got bored with design spec writing, and wrote what follows.
Several of its first readers liked it, and suggested that I share it with
the rec.humor.funny world.	- Doug Hosking	([email protected]))

In the beginning, God created the bit.  And the bit was a zero; nothing.

On the first day, He toggled the 0 to a 1, and the Universe was.
(In those days, bootstrap loaders were simple, and "active low" signals
didn't yet exist.)

On the second day, God's boss wanted a demo, and tried to read the bit.
This being volatile memory, the bit reverted to a 0.  And the universe wasn't.
God learned the importance of backups and memory refresh, and spent the rest
of the day (and his first all-nighter) reconstructing the universe.

On the third day, the bit cried "Oh, Lord!  If you exist, give me a sign!"
And God created rev 2.0 of the bit, even better than the original prototype.
Those in Universe Marketing immediately realized that "new and improved"
wouldn't do justice to such a grand and glorious creation.  And so it was
dubbed the Most Significant Bit, or the Sign bit.  Many bits followed, but
only one was so honored.

On the fourth day, God created a simple ALU with 'add' and 'logical shift'
instructions.  And the original bit discovered that by performing a
single shift instruction, it could become the Most Significant Bit.
And God realized the importance of computer security.

On the fifth day, God created the first mid-life kicker, rev 2.0 of the ALU,
with wonderful new features, and said "Screw that add and shift stuff.
Go forth and multiply."  And God saw that it was good.

On the sixth day, God got a bit overconfident, and invented pipelines,
register hazards, optimizing compilers, crosstalk, restartable instructions,
microinterrupts, race conditions, and propagation delays.  Historians have
used this to convincingly argue that the sixth day must have been a Monday.

On the seventh day, an engineering change introduced [name of buggy
component deleted to keep lawyers happy] into the Universe, and it
hasn't worked right since.
--
Edited by Brad Templeton.  MAIL, yes MAIL your jokes to [email protected]
Attribute the joke's source if at all possible.  I will reply, mailers willing.
I reply to all submissions, but about 30% of the replies bounce.


dave

    For those who are wondering ...

    At the request of a couple noters, I have set all entries in the Dave
    Orin topic dealing with the circumstances of his death HIDDEN. This is
    simply to protect (what he considered to be) his privacy. 

    Thank you for understanding.    

-b

    You're never going to believe this, but I think the conference has
    finally started to go south.

    There are several topics which read "No replies" which, in fact have
    replies.  There are also several keyword references that simply are
    incorrect.

    At this point in time, it appears that the conference may be corrupted;
    I will be researching this further and will be attempting to fix it
    sometime in the next few days (hopefully).

    In the meantime, don't be surprised if we *have* to close/write-lock
    this file and open a new one.  More later.  8-(

-b 

>     There are also several keyword references that simply are
>     incorrect.

Is it not true  that  keywords  are easily added by mistake?  I think if
     you do a  SHOW  KEY then hit KP7 while viewing the list (mistakedly
     thinking that you will  get a listing of all the notes related to a
     particular keyword) you end up  _adding_  the  keyword  to the last
     note that you read.  I've  done  this  once  or twice and was lucky
     enough to subsequently discover how to _remove_  the keyword.  duh.
     I never did like Keywords.

/Mitch

    The list I generated last night points to non-existent notes and
    actually has bogus keywords (looked like line noise).  I don't think
    this is due to a cockpit error, but I could be wrong. 

    According to Jim Ravan, the conference has NEVER been CONVERTed, so
    perhaps this is in order before taking any more drastic action. 
    
    Got a CONVERT procedure for notes files that I can use?  Thanks.

-b

    Well, after much muckety-muck, this thing is finally converted.

    Users doing DIRECTORY operations should see improved response. I'll be
    attempting to get keywords straighted out in the next few weeks
    (pointers, that is ... all corruption has been repaired). 

    Thanks to all for waiting so patiently.

-b

    Folks - it has been pointed out that the conference intro topic (1.1)
    has a pointer to SUBSYS::ORIN for info on DECMS. 

    I was going to update the topic, but realized that I don't have the
    slightest idea who is responsible for this group.  Is someone willing
    to pick up the ball?  I'd have a go, but I can't get good deals on
    anything but pork bellies and beef sides here in n/w Ohio. 

    Anyone got any ideas?

-b

RE: .76 (who wants to take over DECMS?)

    Hmmm ... it appears that no one is willing.  Perhaps DECMS will simply
    fade out.  Oh well.  I'd do it if I could, but I can't. 

RE: keywords

    On another note (ahem), I've been going back thru the conference and
    (re-)assigning keywords in (what I consider to be) a consistent,
    rational fashion.  I'm working backwards, and am close to 1750 now (I
    think). Anyway, please don't add or delete keywords prefixed with XXX,
    as I'm using them as pointers to keep track of where I've been. 

    Once things become stable (at least back to topic 1000), I'll revise
    the topical directory - it should be a lot easier to use.  In the
    meantime, start giving keywords a try if you can't find something. For
    example, assume you're interested in information on the Roland MKS
    series of synths.  Do a: 

	Notes> SHOW KEY MKS*		! to show all MKS keywords
	Notes> SHOW KEY/FULL MKS*	! to show all notes with MKS keywords
	Notes> DIR/KEY=MKS70		! to see titles of notes on SuperJX

    Eventually, the topical directory will eliminate the need for you
    having to do this (assuming that you'll extract a copy for yourself). 

    Keywords of special interest include:

	DIY		(for 'Do It Yourself' projects)
	GETTING_STARTED	(for newcomers and 'recommendation' notes)
	INSTRUCTION	(for 'how do I' or techniques notes)
	MAINTENANCE	(for equipment maintenance tips)
	TROUBLESHOOTING (for 'help me' notes)

    Keywords are only being attached to the base note, and I would request
    that this convention be followed thruout the conference.

    Also, since the list is probably still somewhat awry (some need
    deleted, others need added), don't assign keywords based on what's
    there already, or expect a list entry to be all-inclusive.  I'm
    not done yet.  8-)

    Yours in improving information retrieval,

-b

    I'm going to hold off on doing a new directory, a new topical
    directory, or a keyword list posting until I hear what people think
    about the current setup. 

    There are 422 keywords (!), which is quite a large list.  Some of these
    may be removed in the future.  Your feedback is greatly appreciated. 

-b

PS: for those heck-bent on getting a keyword list, the following command
    procedure will mail you a list of keywords: 

$!GET_KEYWORDS.COM - add /FULL switch to /all qualifier for full listing
$!
$	set noon
$
$	delete /nolog SYS$LOGIN:tmp.tmp;*
$	define /user SYS$OUTPUT SYS$LOGIN:tmp.tmp
$	notes /nonote /noauto nova::commusic
show keywords /all
exit
$	mail /subj="COMMUSIC Keyword List at ''F$TIME()'" -
	  SYS$LOGIN:tmp.tmp 'F$GETJPI(0,"USERNAME")' 
$	delete SYS$LOGIN:tmp.tmp;*
$	exit

    Brad:
    
    	The keyword list looks good.  I don't mind a lot of keywords,
    especially when things seem to be cross-referenced by manufacturer,
    model number, generic heading, etc.
    
    Thanks for the effort; I really appreciate how time-consuming it must
    have been to get this all done.
    
    - John -

    Brad:
    
    	Great job on the keyword list!!! Have you thought about working
    with computer databases for a living? :-).
    
    Clusters,
    
    	Bill Allen
    
    P.S.  How's the baby?
    
    P.P.S Anyword on your "electrical baby", from E-mu?
     

    You may have noticed that topic 6 has been updated.  I've called many
    of these dealers and made sure that DECMS is a known quantity. The last
    reply in the dealer list is a summary of current posted dealers. 

    I can't be doing all the organizing of DECMS get-togethers that was
    once done, but I can and will be posting clinic announcements and what
    not (provided that the stores keep their word and let me know what's
    going on). 

    Hope you folks find this useful.

    An important aside: East Coast Sound is willing to sell to our members
    at 10% over cost, provided that we don't shop their prices.  They are
    willing to cut us slack if we're willing to keep mum, in short.  Let's
    try and treat these guys right - it sounds like they could be a very
    good source fo low cost gear if we play our cards right. 

-b

    How do we get new keywords added for manufacturers that don't have
    any yet?  You know, those obscure hole in the wall outfits like
    OPCODE.  And their products, like VISION.   I used "SEQUENCER", but I
    notice the other guys get their own keywords (MOTU, PERFORMER,
    CAKEWALK, etc)

    Well, I just added OPCODE as a keyword.  I know the list isn't
    complete, and will be adding mfgr keywords as necessary.  (I usually go
    thru the conference every morning and tag all new topics with
    appropriate keywords, FWIW.) 

    After having to clean up the keyword list, it will be a bit before I
    unrestrict keyword creation - I deleted over 300, most redudant, a few
    ridiculous (like RX7<LF>RX8<FF><LF> - try deleting or displaying that
    keyword!).  In the meantime, if you have a keyword you want assigned,
    send mail with the desired keyword/note number or post a reply (flame)
    here. 

    Your patience is appreciated.

-b

    Seems that the NOVA cluster has been having some resource problems this
    week.  Don't know what the problem is, other than people may be seeing
    lots of "insufficient resources available at remote node" messages. 

    I suspect that this is due to some anomaly associated with LAVcs (Local
    Area VAXclusters for you non-technical types) and should be resolved in
    a few days. 

    As always, your patience is appreciated.

-b

    At the suggestion of several people, and Eirkiur's most recent posting,
    I've added EDITOR and LIBRARIAN keywords to the conference. 

    Formerly, these topics were cataloged via SOFTWARE or PATCHES. Thanks
    for your continued support. 

-b

RE: the tack in 13 about USENET mailings

    I've been trying to get answers out of people for the past 3 months.
    I'm not Unix literate (it seems that all this stuff is based on Unix
    mail somewhere along the line) and everyone that I've talked with has
    basically been very gbrief, and not at all helpful. 
    
    From what I understand, USENET mailings were discontinued because of
    the extreme load that was put on the gateways mailing things to people
    (local mgmt decision, of course). 

    Anyone who knows anything about how to access newsgroups on the USENET
    (or even how the addressing works) is encouraged to reply to this note
    - PLEASE. 

-b

Topic: USENET

USENET news works kind of like this (I'm not very Unix literate either
so this may not be exact):

There is software that manages news out in the world (outside DEC on the
big gateways).  Different newsgroups are created and articles
are sent by individuals to these newsgroups.  (I assume somewhere there
is a host that tracks a certain newsgroup, though there probably doesn't
have to be).  Anyway, machines are set up as servers and feeders to feed news
to other machines.  News articles have certain identifying marks (what
newsgroup, who sent it, distribution, etc.) that identify it as news.
The news server software on a machine sees a news article and adds it to its
database of news.  Most newsservers expire (delete) articles regularly, say
after an article is perhaps 3 or 5 days old.   There is also software
that allows a user to read this news.  Each article is addressable individually
and cross references (to other articles) and cross-postings (to
other newsgroups) can be made.  There are certain commands associated with
the different news readers.  A user can skip an article, reply to an article,
etc.  Similar to notes in terms of user actions.

Anyway, before within DEC, easynet didn't have access to news.  There
was a mechanism where some machines had special software written to take news
from our gateway/news feedr DECWRL (which by the way is a major router out in 
the real world, and not just for DEC) and to make mailings of all the news
articles from newsland and send them to subscribers.  This was purely an
internal way of forwarding news.  There was also a mechanism set up to alow
us to post to a newsgroup.  Unix/Ultrix users internally who were on the
corporate internet I believe always had news access.  Recently, the people
who were making and distributing the USENET mailings had to shut down as
it was interfering with the groups chartered purpose.  Well, this caused a lot
of problems for a lot of people who read news so a major action was put
underway to provide news directly on easynet through our internal
Ultrix friends on the corporate internet.  The problem was getting a DECnet/
VMS newsreader up and going.  Well, an Xwindows version out in the
real world (XRN) was ported to VMS and DECnet and also a CCT (character cell 
terminal) interface news reader from outside was ported to DECnet (it
was already VMS).  Then Ultrix systems were volunteered to feed VMS nodes
over DECnet.  Now we have direct news access (can read, post, etc).

Please see the note about related conferences for the conferences to
check into about setting up the news readers and where to get a feed from.

About the newsgroup names.  I can't say much except there are a few major
namespaces set up (alt, comp, rec,  and so forth) and newsgroups exist
under these namespaces.

As far as I know, it has nothing to do with unix mail per say.  News is
independent of mail on unix.

By the way, as far as I understand USENET refers *only* and *exclusively*
to the news network, notmail or anything else outside.  There was/is a
conference devoted to USENET issues ROLL::USENET that talks a little about
USENET history.

Any omissions, false ideas, etc above should please be corrected by those
in the know.

Thanks.

Chad

question - with Jim ravan's departure, how are we fixed for a home for
Commusic ?  I know Brad's been moderating, but long-distance.. do you
think with Jim gone that the current cluster will continue to support
Commusic without a local advocate ?
    
    karl

    I've talked to Jim about this - it looks like there won't be a problem
    keeping the file where it is for the time being.  This is a *big*
    cluster, and I doubt that we'll get kicked off unless something really
    silly happens.  Jim has given me a name of a sys mgt type up here,
    and I think there will be no problem.

    Incidentally, COMMUSIC.NOTE is now over 70k blocks (a large conference).

-b

    This is a request for help.  It is possible that my involvement in this
    conference will be very limited in a few months due to the nature of my
    job.

    With this in mind, I'd like to solicit requests for a co-moderator or
    two.  Ideally, I'd like someone who is in the northeast, especially
    someone located in MK (although this is not firm), since the NOVA
    cluster is located there. 

    Anyone who's interested should send mail to: 

	DYO780::SCHAFER		or
	CSOA1::SCHAFER

    in the next few days.  I'll try to get my mail read in that time period
    and get back with interested parties.  Thank you for your support.

-b

    Crap - forgot to post this ...

    Edd Cote and Dan Eaton are officially co-moderators of this conference
    (in case I get jerked somewhere in the next few months).

    Thanks to all who volunteered, and my apologies for not posting
    this earlier.

-b (harried co-moderator)

    Just a brief note to welcome all the newcomers - er, new *writers* - to
    COMMUSIC.  Your participation is welcomed and encouraged.

    Please take time to read topics 1.*, especially guidelines on topic
    titles, redundant topics, and using keywords.  Also remember to use
    commands 

	Notes> DIR/KEYWORD=keyword		and
	Notes> SHOW KEYWORD/FULL keyword 

    before WRITEing a new topic.  Thank you for your support.

the moderators

	I'd like to see the sale note topic cleaned up.  I personally have 
called various people to inquire about their sale items and have found them sold
or have changed their mind.  It would save us all a lot of trouble if we could 
take care of our own sale notes.

	I'd like to give people an opportunity to take their old sale notes and,
if still valid, re-enter/update them.  I'll give until this friday (12/8) to
let everyone do this.  After that, anything that is older than, say, 90 days 
will be removed.  This will be done, after that point, on an ongoing basis.

	Dan (COMMUSIC Co-moderator)

re: note 12 clean up.

In some respects I agree, however I suggest that instead of deletion we
ask that the keywork sold be attached to old notes. I find the  reference to
used prices helpful when shopping the used market and it keeps me from having 
to enter a "How much should I pay for a XXX used?" note.

dbii

RE < Note 14.94 by DNEAST::BOTTOM_DAVID "Rock and Roll doctor" >

>In some respects I agree, however I suggest that instead of deletion we
>ask that the keywork sold be attached to old notes. 

	The problem with that is that people generally don't clean up after 
themselves as it is.  The last time I went through the sale topic, I found 
numerous places where a seller had updated the sale and didn't bother to
delete the outdated sale note.  If people aren't taking care of their notes now,
it would be unreasonable to think that they'd add a keyword to them in the
future.  Unfortunately, there's no automated way that I know of that can sense
the status of a sale note.

	Any other opinions?

	Dan

    ....The moderators
    
    
    ....Sounds like a good name for a band.....
    

Opinion: Leave the for sale notes to serve as price references.
         When you see an old for sale note, assume that you may or may
         not be wasting your time looking into purchasing that item.

/Mitch

    SET MODE NOT_MODERATOR
    
    Since we've lost our site contact (Jim Ravan), I'm of the opinion
    we should try to be 'polite' to our hosts who probably have little,
    if any, vested interest in the continuation of this file. Conserving
    disc space is one way to do that.With that in mind, I believe old 
    "FOR SALE" notes should be blown away.
    
    The price reference argument *seems* pretty valid, but with prices on
    gear dropping as new stuff is intro'd, I have to question the value
    of a price better than 6 months old... It might be nice trivia!!
    
    Edd

    The disk space issue is the most pressing.  Edd is correct in his
    assessment.  We need to be good guys.

    As for price references, post something in 2195 (Banter) if you need a
    price quote (or the "Latest Hot Price Quote" topic); that's what
    they're for.  In fact, we probably ought to go back thru the Latest Hot
    Quote topic and purge some of that. 

    In any case, I question the probability of someone wading thru 300+
    for sale replies to find example prices.  My 2�.

-b

    Could I also suggest the "banter" note be purged every n days???
    
    If it's important, put it someplace else!
    
    Edd

RE: disk space

SET mode SYS$MANAGER

I got lots of RA82's I'm willing to put it on at DNEAST::

dbii

    re : last few
    
    I know this is a dumb question, but how does one delete a response
    to a note?
    
    Bill (who wants to do his part to keep DEC a kinder, cleaner place)

    Assuming you are the author and you're still on the same node, just
    get the note on your screen and type DEL at the NOTES> prompt, then
    answer yes to the "really?" prompt...
    
    Edd

    BTW - If anyone wants a bunch of notes deleted and they can't do it
    themselves for whatever the reason, send me mail with a list.
    
    Edd

>    BTW - If anyone wants a bunch of notes deleted and they can't do it
>    themselves for whatever the reason, send me mail with a list.
    
    OK, Edd.
    
    I'd like all the notes you wrote in the great "Multi-timbral" debate
    deleted.
    
    ;-)
    
    Thanks,
    
    	db
    

    re .104
    
    I just tried to DEL 12.300 and 12.376 from the FOR SALE note, and
    the system came back with "NO PRIVELIGE TO DELETE FROM THIS NOTE"
    or something similar.  Well, I NEVER!!!
    
    Anyway, Edd, you're free to have a go at it.  (Did I do something
    wrong?).
    
    Santa Clusters,
    
    Bill Allen

    re: 12.105
    
    NOTES> SET FOOT=IN_MOUTH/AUTHOR=COTE
    
    Edd

I'd like to suggest the creatioin of a keyword.

BIM or LERDS-BIM

I'm trying to find notes about it and would like to use keywords.

thanks

Chad

Doing DIR/TITLE=BIM led me to notes:

1814
1552
1012

in case you do want to add the keyword.

Chad

    Fine.  There's now a BIM keyword.  And it's been added to the topics
    you posted. 

-b

    A friendly reminder to use MiXeD cAsE when posting notes. 

    All uppercase usually means you're shouting. 

    THANKS for your support.

-b

RE 12.* cleanup...

	The moderators have conferred again and have come to the conclusion that
the sale note should be kept as clean as possible.  It is not the purpose of 
that topic to be kept as a price reference.  If anyone needs to know a general
sale price on something, they can inquire/lookup in the Latest Hot Price Quote
topic or even ask around in the Banter note.  Or ask me - I got a mind like a...
well, I'll refrain from the descriptive adjectives...

	Anyway, as of today the sale topic will be maintained on an ongoing 
basis.  My tendancy is to want to delete topics older than 60 days.  That's
twice the amount of time allotted in the CLASSIFIED_ADS conference.  We'll see.
I suggest you all keep a copy of your sale notes on your own system for re-entry
when the time period has expired.  That saves you having to re-type *and* it 
gives you fresh visibility when you re-enter/update the ad.

	I will most likely maintain a copy of deleted notes myself for a short
time (1 week? 1 month?) in case a given noter didn't save his/her ad for
themselves.

	Dan (COMMUSIC Co-Moderator)

    ... steel trap (closed)?

&*}

...like a steel trap.  Everything that goes in comes out mangled.   

    (sorry. couldn't resist)

Well I don't really care for the decision, if disk space is the issue I've 
got more than enough here. And since we're using a cluster alias the loss of
a single node doesn't cause loss of access (unless you want to try renaming
the notesfile to see if the others are up). But you're the moderators.

dbii

>Note 8.55                   Conference Bulletin Board                   55 of 56
>WEFXEM::COTE "Call *who* Ishmael???"                  8 lines  28-DEC-1989 09:30
> 70K blocks
> I would bet we could shrink it down quite a bit. I know I'm guilty of
> lots of mindless babbling...

It sounds like DNEAST::BOTTOM_DAVID has already offered up his disk space
for housing the conference.    Dave,  what  will the performance be like?
(for a typical Massachusetts/New Hampshire based employee)

Also, as far as space  goes,  have  the  moderators  compressed this file
lately?  Last time I looked  into it, with Notes - you can delete all the
topics and replies you want, but you  don't get any disk space back until
the file gets compressed.

/Mitch

    I believe Brad compressed the conference 4 or 5 months ago.
    
    Edd

My only thoughts about putting it in Maine are selfish ones...

Maine is probably not the quickest DECnet route and I would prefer to not
lose performance to COMMUSIC, my favorite conference.  ZKO is somewhat
central to the users I believe...

Chad

We're in area 17, two 880's and an 8700 HSC server RA82's

space is no issue...and I'm sysmgr of the target cluster (DNEAST::)

Service on FLYFISH.note improved for European noters when we moved it FROM 
Europe, my assumption is that service will be as good as today, possibly 
better.

dbii

If performance isn't a problem I'd vote for DNEAST, otherwise I'll stick my
vote with my machines, NUTELA:: in area 2  at ZKO in Nashua NH.  I'm
going to check with the net folks on how the links are from MK, ZK, LKG, MLO
and MRO to area 17 in terms of hops, what sort of wire they are on, etc and 
compare it to what those same places are like to ZKO (area 2).  For a sample
of what performance would be like to my machine, try reading 

NUTELA::NORTHERN_MIDDLESEX

A conference I host.

Chad

I vote against putting it in Tucson, only becauseI think it would be bad 
performance.

       <<< Note 14.120 by NORGE::CHAD "Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte" >>>
>I vote against putting it in Tucson, only becauseI think it would be bad 
>performance.
    
    Chad, I don't disagree - Tucson should be the last resort.  However, a
    MV3800 is plenty of machine to host a conference, and we have a 56KB
    Vitalink line to the Tustin, CA. data center area router.  Area 16,
    BTW.
    
    karl

Another factor, perhaps, is that our cluster has near 100% up time, and the
notes server requires that you use the cluster alias so that you don't end
up chasing the current "up" node as we have in the past, on those occasions
when one of the nodes is down...

As long as it survives (the notesfile) I personally don't care where it ends 
up...but I've got the resources to host it.

dbii

I tried getting into  DNEAST::FLYFISH several times and I poked around, looking
at different notes as well as a lot of NEXT UNSEEN etc.  From ZKO I had twice
the performance to NOVA as to DNEAST.  I suspect that DNEAST will be a bit slow.

Factors for DNEAST:  -Three big machines and fast disks and generally up
                     -Cluster alias so no searching down nodenames when down.
Factors against DNEAST: -Cluster alias -- translation time in connecting to
		         server.  What that really means in terms of performance
                         I don't know.
                        -Somewhat in the boonies as far as Mass/NH noters so
                         less performance.
Factors for NUTELA:  -More central to mass/nh noters (emphasis on Mass and NH 
                      because they are probably the majority (?))
                     -Generally always up.
Factors against NUTELA: -One smaller (but still fast and hardly any load - 
                         three or so interactive terminals at once but all from one person
                        (me) so not much user activity) machine.  Little slower
                         disks. (VAXserver 3400)

Anyone try getting into NUTELA::NORTHERN_MIDDLESEX versus DNEAST::FLYFISH ?
What are your experiences with performance???


Chad

        I just did the DNEAST //  NUTELA taste test from here in MRO.
    DNEAST was faster than NUTELA by at least a factor of 5. I was amazed
    at how quick DNEAST::FLYFISH was to poke around in. NUTELA::MORTHERN_
    MIDDLESEX was slower, but not any slower than NOVA::COMMUSIC is to
    access now.
    
    Frank
    

DNEAST seems much faster to me.... :-)

An occasional slower-downer here is TEAMdata (grumble grumble), but not many 
of our users are using it (thanks to your favorite diety)

The cluster alias only slows down the initial connection as far as I know

dbii

I also did the taste-test from a different cluster in MRO.

DNEAST was blindingly  fast.   The other one seemed slightly slower.

/Mitch

    I just did the test from SHR with permission from some folks there to
    use an account.  DNEAST was ever so slightly faster than NUTELA.  Ever
    so slightly.  Cluster alias translation should only be on the initial
    connect I also believe.
    
    What I did was open each one 8-15 times and poke aruond in them.
    
    Others should try the test too and report. 
    
    Best time to test is probably 9:30 - 11:30 or 2:30 - 4:30, times
    our net folks said is probably busiest (at least at ZKO)
    
    My vote would be DNEAST as I'd rather not have my machine bogged down
    with the traffic commusic gets.  :-)
    
    Obviously NUTELA is faster for me :-) (though I get to
    NORTHERN_MIDDLESEX directly :-).
    
    Chad
    
    

    I just tried access to both sites from LKG (Littleton). I didn't see a
    great deal of difference, although DNEAST did seem to be slightly
    faster. It actually appears faster than some of the local conferences
    here. I don't know what kind of network path we have to that site, but
    it must be pretty direct, or not heavily utilized. One thing worth
    considering is that the load on the net is probably lighter this week
    than usual, so that might affect the performance.
    
    In any case, both of the sights seemed to provide much better access
    than I am used to for this conference, which has traditionally been one
    of the worst ones I habitate.
    
    - Ram

re: LGK access

I belive one of our lines (56Kb) goes direct to LKG, the other goes to Acton I
think. If anyone really cares I can ask the net_demi_gods

dbii

    Access to DNEAST::FLYFISH was VERY fast - under 5 sec. to open the
    conference, directories happen RIGHT NOW.  faster than COMMUSIC on the
    NOVA cluster.
    
    Could not access NUTELA::NORTHERN_MIDDLESEX.  My netnode_remote.dat
    didn't know about it, so I entered NCP> TELL ANCHOR SH NODE NUTELA,
    and it came back with 2.60.  However, my database (updated very regularly,
    thank you) says that 2.60 is node MACROW.  I'm not gonna mess with it
    to do a onetime test.
    
    karl

    Well well ... (back from vacation) ...

    Since I travel a lot, I have accounts on *lots* of different machines
    (everywhere from Dayton to Detroit to Maynard to ...). 

    I tried accessing DNEAST this AM, as well as the other candidates.
    DNEAST smokes 'em all, hands down.  Like Karl, I found DNEAST to be
    markedly faster than the NOVA cluster from my normal site. 

    There is a slight caveat here: network "performance testing" as is
    being carried out here is highly unreliable.  DNEAST could squeal like
    a pig during non-holiday usage.  In fact, it did just that a few mos
    ago when I was poking around in another conference up thataway. 

    Another unknown to me is the reliability of the link from DNEAST to the
    rest of the world (or if, perchance, there may be a backup link in
    place).

    Be that as it may, the prospect of lots of disk space, and the
    likelyhood of frequent regular backups would let me sleep better
    nights.  If the conference does get moved, it would seem to me that
    DNEAST is definitely the best spot for it at this point in time. My
    personal thanks to Dave for volunteering to host the thing.

    BTW, like Edd said, I did a compress several mos ago.  It didn't help
    (much). 

-b

    All things considered, I'm of the opinion that DNEAST:: is also the
    way to go.
    
    I feel a little odd. Although the 3 mods have been conversing, I don't
    think it's really our decision to make. We all (Brad, Dan , moi) want
    to do what's best for all of YOU.
    
    Does the rest of the conference think DNEAST is a good choice?
    *Somebody* will have to make a decision soonest and we want to try and
    make everyone happy...
    
    Edd

I vote for DNEAST

Chad

    
    I have a decent link to DNEAST (I do a lot of EMAIL with Augusta).  
    
    Sounds good to me.
    
    								Brian

Assuming the decision is to go with DNEAST, then when we are ready here's
what we do:

1. enable dneast::bottom_david as moderator
2. write lock NOVA::COMMUSIC
3. FTSV copy the file to DNEAST::
4. notify me of the copy
5. I'll move it to notes$library and unwrite lock it
6. we're off!
7. the old conference should point to DNEAST:: after the transfer

dbii

    
    Please post in NOVA copy when transfer is completed and new conference
    is up, eh?
    

    Is there a formal methodology to notify the anchor:: EASYNOTES.LIS file
    when a public conference moves ?
    
    karl
    
    (I've already voted for DNEAST::)

>    Is there a formal methodology to notify the anchor:: EASYNOTES.LIS file
>    when a public conference moves ?
 
Yes, just update the COMMUSIC entry (or add it if it is not there) in the
conference TURRIS::EASYNET_CONFERENCES.  CVG::THOMPSON or whoever is currently
running the easynotes.lis automatically picks up changes there.

   
>    karl
    
>    (I've already voted for DNEAST::)


Chad

If the file comes to DNEAST I'll take the task of posting the appropriate 
notification to the notefile mentioned in .138

dbii

    Hear ye, hear ye ... THIS CONFERENCE IS MOVING FRIDAY, JANUARY 5, 1990. 

    Okay, folks ... here's the plan. 

    COMMUSIC will be write-locked this Friday afternoon and will be moved
    to DNEAST.  For now, assume that it will not be available again until
    Monday morning. 

    You will want to do the following after the move is complete: 

	Notes> MOD ENTRY COMMUSIC /FILE=DNEAST::COMMUSIC

    If you get an error that DNEAST is an unknown remote, use 18031 instead
    of DNEAST. 

    Just to be safe, you should probably also issue the following command
    upon opening the DNEAST rev of the file: 

	Notes> SET SEEN /BEFORE=5-JAN-1990:17:00
    
    where 17:00 is your local time equivalent of 5pm EST.  This will ensure
    that your SEEN map is intact. 

    Dave Bottom (DNEAST::BOTTOM_DAVID) will become a co-moderator effective
    with the move. 

    If there are ANY problems, questions, or gripes about this move
    (concerning performance, access, etc), please send me mail or post a
    note here (if you can).  Thanks. 

-b (godfather of COMMUSIC)

If you're reading this then you know that the move went sour.

For some reason we couldn't copy the file...stay tuned.

dave

    Smark aleck.  &*}

    In case anyone wondered what happened, there was a slight problem
    getting FTSV to read COMMUSIC while NOVA's notes server had the
    conference open (cache is a wonderful thing). 

    Anyway, thanks to the help of Bill Wright, and the patience of Dave
    Bottom (well, maybe not - I wasn't there to watch him when it didn't
    work), the conference came up about 5pm yesterday evening. 

    Anyone noticing problems should reply here or send mail to one of the
    moderators.  Happy noting.

-b

I was in all weekend anyway upgrad some systems to 5.3 so it wasn't much 
trouble to pull down a window and try to copy it again....and again...

glad it's working!


dave

    
    To everyone who helped to find a home for COMMUSIC and then helped
    make the move...
    
    
    	T  H  A  N  K     Y  O  U  !  !  !  !  !
                                  
    
    an appreciative COMMUSICer      8^)
    

    Since most everyone uses "next unseen" to find new notes, there is no
    need to start a new note on a subject already under discussion in the
    mistaken belief it will get more exposure. Using REPLY instead of WRITE
    will get your note the same exposure and keep the file less cluttered.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Edd
    Co-mod

            
    I found this in another notesfile, but request the members of COMMUSIC
    to READ AND HEED.
    
    Edd
    
    
    
Over the last several months Digital has been contacted by a number of
individuals and business entities that were angry about negative
comments made about them in our Notesfiles and Conferences.  As the
Personnel Policy Manager for Digital I have been the recipient of many
of those notes.  I thought I should take the time to post this note to
inform employees that it is not appropriate for them to make negative
comments or references about any person or business entity in any of
Digital's employee interest notesfile or conferences.

There are several reasons why we are establishing this rule.
The first has to do with fundamental fairness.  It is simply not fair
for an employee to make a negative comment about a business when we
don't provide those businesses an opportunity to respond and defend
themselves.  This is particularly true given the fact that we have no
way of determining whether the comment is honest, fair or accurate.
Clearly Digital has no intention, or desire, to open up its notesfiles
to third-party businesses so that they can engage in a debate about
whether they provide quality services.  The only logical solution then
is to ask our employees to refrain from using the Notesfiles to air
grievances they have with individuals, vendors, or organizations.

In addition to out concerns about fairness, we are concerned about the
potential damage that these kinds of comments may cause to third-party
businesses.  In that regard, employees should understand that they may
be personally liable if the statements they make cause harm to any
person or business.  Moreover, there is some possibility Digital may be
held liable for such comments as well.  Stated more simply, comments
made in a Notesfile or conference are in no way privileged or immune
from claims of liable, slander or defamation.

We are asking all of the users of Notesfiles to exercise discretion and
judgement in the comments that they make in the system.  We are also
asking moderators to go back and review the notesfiles they
moderate and to remove any notes that include derogatory references to
third-party businesses.

Please feel free to contact your moderator if you have any questions
on this subject.

Ron Glover
Corporate Peronnel Policy Manager

	Jeez, there goes half the conference!  I guess there's some
	distinction to be made between "derogatory" and "critical"?

    It's a tough call to be sure. The HOME_WORK file was shut down
    (voluntarily) due to the static ensuing from an "honest review".
    
    I don't think COMMUSIC needs any rules or guidelines, but simply
    request that people be careful.
    
    Edd

    
    Well, *HOW* does third party have access to Digital internal
    notes files to read these derogatory comments in the FIRST PLACE??????
    
    You are ALWAYS responsible for your public comments. If personel
    is saying "consider a notesfile as a public arena, for which you
    may be held responsible for libel,slander, or other such situations",
    then I agree. 
    
    If this implies "dont critique or review or offer personal opinion",
    then sorry DEC, you have no right to restrict that interaction.
    
    There is no LEGAL problem with you or I discussing negative experiences
    with products or services of any company or individuals that's unique
    to a Notesfile, i.e., different than public forum.
    
    PERIOD.
    
    Ron    
    

    I imagine that 
    there are several reasons that negative comments in a conference carry
    more weight of responsibility than comments at Tom Fooleries.
    1.  Digital owns the computers, and therefore could be held responsible
    for data (comments) on the computers.
    2.  Conferences are permanently published; they never go away.  They
    don't come out in issues like house organs (internal newsletters) that
    disappear after a few weeks; that's why we moderators were asked to
    edit out old negative remarks.  The negative effects (say, claim of
    loss of business) continue forever, or until the conference is renewed
    by starting over.
    3.  Conferences are not public forums, they are privately owned by
    Digital.
    4.  Apparently vendors here about these conferences (perhaps in
    violation of company security standards, which you can read in many
    conferences first notes) from Digital employees.
    5.  Although Conferences have fostered a casual conversational style
    (that gets downright careless in technical notes files), they are not
    conversations that disappear into the ether; they are private
    publications of Digital that are permanently available to employees,
    and because support of the conferences is almost never funded,
    moderators have insufficient time to monitor them and so they are
    under-edited, in comparison to the letters column in Keyboard.
    
    Be careful what you publish!
    Tom

    
    In the several instances I'm aware of, the offended person was given
    the information by a DEC EMPLOYEE who read it in a non work notesfile.
    If the offending note was extracted, that in itself is a violation of 
    DEC policy. However the note doesn't need to be extracted to offend the 
    person, just the fact that the negative comments exist in a non public
    notesfile are enough to threaten libel proceedings.
    
    The days are long gone where an individual has to be held responsible for
    their own actions. In today's litigous society, it's everyone's problem.
    
    Chris
    CdH
    

    
    
    There is also the issue of what we in the U.K. call The Data
    Protection Act, which is intended to protect the individual from being
    blacklisted by a database without his knowledge or opportunity to
    appeal. To take this to it's absolute any one referred to within this
    file could legally ask to see all those references to check for their
    accuracy and completeness. The other side is that the database has to
    be registerred. This file does not exist within the U.K. and therefore
    is probably exempt from registration except that it is accessible from
    the U.K. ? Is this a loophole ? Is this a database ?
    
    				Paul. 
    
    

    "Official" policy notwithstanding, I think it's time to exercise common
    sense, and stop worrying about the "I'll sue you" syndrome. 

    If someone wants to post a negative review of a product, service, or
    component - go for it.  I don't see any problem with this at all. If
    the "negative" appraisal is honest and fair, there should be no beef
    from anyone concerned. 

    If the company is going to start restricting postings to only
    "positive" ones, then you can expect me to quit noting.  Some things in
    life are negative ... people have bad experiences.  As far as the "I'll
    sue" thing goes, I could just as easily counter-sue the company for NOT
    allowing someone to post a negative review.  What if I could have
    avoided being ripped off had a fellow noter been allowed to communicate
    a negative message?

    I think this is a knee jerk reaction to people who aren't mature enough
    to control themselves ... and in the process, all of us get "hurt" (so
    to speak).  Where is good old-fashioned common sense in all this?

-b

    re: .154
    
    Brad I am in complete sympathy with you, however, I have seen many
    times in other conferences, that some people are unable to distinguish
    between *fact* and *conjecture*. This is what causes problems.
    
    If I say "Vendor X" is a crook because he charged me $X for a repair
    job that "Vendor Y" did for a friend of mine for half the amount." I am
    mixing fact and conjecture. The facts may be the price paid and the
    work done, but my conclusion that the guy is a crook is conjecture. The
    problem with this is it doesn't take into account other variables that
    could justify the price charged in this example.
    
    In another conference I have seen that conference equivalent of a real
    shouting match where facts (both supported and unsupported) and
    conjecture are thrown out at random and damn the consequences. 
    
    I am very unhappy at the idea of restricting the free exchange of ideas
    (both fact *and* conjecture) in this conference. At the same time I am
    concerned about the power of computer databases over peoples lives. It
    is easy to say "Who cares" this is only for Digital people and none of
    them will be hurt in this conference. However, how would you feel if you
    were denied credit all of a sudden because of a glitch that messed up
    your credit record in some credit company's data base? How would you
    feel if you were told that you couldn't even *know* what the glitch
    was, because it was a private computer system?
    
    This conference, like all conferences gives us access to much
    knowledge. Knowledge is power, and power demands responsibility. Let's
    be responsible for ourselves *before* some one else takes on the job.
    By all means let us continue tha free axchange of ideas both positive
    and negative, but let's separate out the facts from the personal
    opinions, especially when making negative postings.
    

    I appreciate the legal concerns, but to me one of the fundamental
    values of noting is the sharing of personal experiences. I always try
    to be cautious about slandering anyone, but can't we be sensible about
    it? I thought it was fairly clear (at least it is in the conferences I
    participate in) that you shouldn't use the name of the dealer if you
    have something negative to say. We all know what people mean (or at
    least anyone who might be interested does) if they say "a certain
    dealer in Acton" or "near the Mass/NH border", etc. I don't see that
    this should be a problem. I have a hard time imagining that it would
    hold up in court if I wrote a note that said "A certain dealer in Acton
    gave me a bum deal" (which I have, by the way). 
    
    Another factor in this is freedom of expression. If the dealers feel
    that no one can share their negative experiences with others, then they
    have very little incentive to provide good service. It's the threat of
    public exposure that keeps them in line. From this standpoint, the only
    argument I can see for not sharing these experiences is the fact that
    we are using DEC equipment to do it, and thus potentially involving the
    corporation in it.
    
    - Ram

    Isn't it the case that if you can prove your statements, then they can
    not be considered libelous?
    
    This doesn't keep them from sueing, but it keeps them from winning.
    
    All I know about this I learned from watching the TV-movie based on
    Leon Uris' book, "QB-VII" (or something like that).

    I think the problem is that the way to provide proof may involve
    presenting evidence, such as note files.  Last thing Digital wants is
    for Notes to be subpoenaed and become public record.  Not only would it
    be expensive and profitless, it might provide advantage to competitors
    looking for trade secrets.
    
    Steve

    First let me say that this request from personnel is simultaneously
    better and worse than what we have interpreted it to be.  There is
    good news and bad news. 
    
    In keeping with standard practice, I'll start with the bad news.
    
    Have to say that I strongly disagree with most of the "ignore this
    edict" sentiments expressed here.
    
    The missing element from each of them is pragmatism.
    
    What we think is fair and what "should be" is totally irrelevant.
    All that matters is "what is".  Anyone who might claim that DEC
    can't be sued or found liable for what's said here (pardon my
    directness) got his head stuck in the ground.
    
    Another pragmatic consideration is to consider how DEC would, or
    rather "has" responded to these kind of problems: an edict comes
    from on high, "shut the file down - period".
    
    DEC will always take the shortest cheapest path to resolution, and
    as a stockholder, I endorse that method.  I don't want DEC spending
    money to defend our rights to speak out against injustice.  As noble
    as that sounds, that's not the business DEC is in.
    
    Now that's the bad news.  There is some very good news.
    
    This is an area I'm extremely familiar with, and what Ron Glover is
    asing is significantly less than how we are interpreting it.
    
    I think what the policy is most concerned with is notes that air
    a grievance based on a particular experience.  Read carefully
    the ONLY thing that Ron is asking:
    
    > The only logical solution then is to ask our employees to refrain from
    > using the Notesfiles to air grievances they have with individuals,
    > vendors, or organizations.
    
    I don't see this as prohibiting reviews.  Reviews are opinions.  I'm
    not aware of any lawsuit brung against Siskel & Ebert for a bad movie
    review, nor a lawsuit brought against Keyboard for a product review.
    
    But I do see it as prohibiting the kind of "so-and-so gave me a bum
    deal" notes that Ram Sudama defended a few notes back.  In fact, I
    disagree with several points that have been made.
    
    1) Not specifically naming the business doesn't limit the liability.
       The issue is whether undue damage occurred and it doesn't matter
       if the libel was "implied" or direct.
    
    2) Whether or not it will "hold up in court" is irrelevant.  DEC
       doesn't want to spend the money to find that out.  What's relevant
       is if it is likely to cause poblems for us.
    
       When stores hear that these conferences can reach all of DECs
       70,000 employees, the businesses involved are more likely to
       take serious action than if what was said was said in a hallway
       conversation.
    
       The point is that we risk not only legal problems, we also risk
       having the COMMUSIC file closed (I shudder to think about that.)
    
    3) Moderators have no way of telling what is truth and what isn't
       in a recount of a bad experience with a store.  
    
    4) One can be entirely truthful and yet still libel. 
    
       There was a person who put something in the MUSIC notesfile that
       a store had sold him something that didn't work, then wouldn't
       fix it or give him his money back.
    
       I happened to know someone at that store and asked about it as
       I had ALWAYS received excellent service at that store.
    
       It turned out that everything the noter said was 100% true
       in that they did sell him something that didn't work and
       they would not fix it, nor refund his money.
    
       However what the note failed to include was the fact that he
       bought it with the understanding that it didn't work at like a
       90% discount.  They insisted on showing me the receipt: it clearly
       stated the unit was damaged and that the sale was final, and EVEN
       included a guaranteed estimate on how much they would charge to
       fix it.
    
    Note that even though the noter told only truths, his presentation
    of the story was almost certainly libelous because it was not complete
    nor remotely fair.
    
    Reviews are opinions.  These grudge notes are representations or 
    misrepresentations of fact.   Another factor is that unlike reviews,
    I think the intention of most of these grudge notes is to "inform"
    but also to deliberately affect (in an adverse way) a business.
    
    Anyway, I see nothing in the memo to prohibit reviews, only grudge
    notes.  While I would like to know who the slimeballs are, a COMMUSIC
    with reviews but no "informative dealer experiences" is STILL more
    desireable than NO COMMUSIC at all (perhaps because it was squashed
    by higher-ups as the result of a threatened legal action).
    
    Non-work related notesfiles exist only so long as they don't create
    problems for DEC.   Let's not create problems.
    
    	db

    What he said.  (Good note, db!)
    
    Steve

    I'm confused (still?). I would appreciate it if you could clarify the
    difference between a "grudge" and a "review". If a "review" includes
    the kind of things that I would read in the newspaper, like some critic
    goes to a movie or a restaurant and tells what their experience was
    (including the bad things), then I agree that is what should be
    allowable in the notesfiles. But it seems like a fine line if you want
    to distinguish between a negative review and a grudge.
    
    Personally, I don't hold grudges, and if I report something negative
    about some vendor it's because it really happened. My purpose is not to
    damage the vendor, but to protect the interests of other noters who
    might have occasion to do business there. I would hope they would do
    the same for me. I would like to think that the vendors, as good
    businessmen, would treat this as customer feedback, just as they should
    if they were reviewed in a newspaper. Of course, there are lousy
    businessmen who don't accept feedback, but that's their problem.
    
    I recognize that some noters are less than objective in their
    criticisms. I like to think that I'm intelligent enough to detect that,
    and I would never entirely rule out dealing with a vendor just because
    some noter had problems there, I would just take it as a caution. As a
    matter of fact, I tend to be a very forgiving person, and I've even
    gone back to the same vendor again even when *I've* had problems there.
    
    It's interesting that no one has complained about the multitude of
    notes in here that critique manufacturers, like Roland, Yamaha, etc.
    Why should we be any less critical of retailers, whose "product" is the
    service they provide?
    
    All I'm saying is, I think that critical reviews are a very useful part
    of this conference. In fact, I'd like to see more of them. I realize
    that ultimately these resources belong to DEC, and if the corporation
    sets a policy against such use of the notesfiles we will have to abide
    by it. But I'm not aware that such a policy has been established.
    
    So can you be more explicit about what constitutes a review?
    
    	- Ram

    Ram,
    
    The line being drawn here really isn't "review" vs. "grudge".
    
    The important distinction is "what is likely to cause trouble"
    and "what isn't".
    
    To the best of my knowledge, no trouble has ever arisen from a
    review.  In constrast, there have been several problems with
    grudge notes (btw, I think you are imbuing negative connotations
    to the word "grudge" that are common, but don't apply to the strict
    meaning of the word).
    
    I don't think there is a fine line between a product review and
    a recount of a particular bad experience with a particular vendor.
    
>    I recognize that some noters are less than objective in their
>    criticisms. I like to think that I'm intelligent enough to detect that,
>    and I would never entirely rule out dealing with a vendor just because
>    some noter had problems there,
    
    I think that's a good attitude, but let's be pragmatic: can you tell
    me that you think there aren't a lot of people who would avoid a
    particular dealer largely on the basis of what is said here?
    
    > My purpose is not to damage the vendor, but to protect the interests of
    > other noters who might have occasion to do business there. 
    
    Do you think that no one who writes a grudge note has it in mind to
    hurt the business?
    
>    It's interesting that no one has complained about the multitude of
>    notes in here that critique manufacturers, like Roland, Yamaha, etc.
>    Why should we be any less critical of retailers, whose "product" is the
>    service they provide?
    
    Because historically, such notes have never caused any trouble.
    Grudge notes have.  Do you think that is not a reasonable basis?
    
    	db

    OK, I'll back off. I think it's quite fair to say that no notes should
    be entered with a malicious intent to harm a vendor (or anyone, for
    that matter). People who have grudges should buy punching bags to vent
    their frustrations. But at the same time, vendors of retail services
    should bear up to the same scrutiny as vendors of any other product in
    the marketplace.
    
    Just as an aside, I wonder how Consumer Reports gets away with the
    things they print about products and services. I suppose this might
    provide a useful example of the "review" type material that might be
    appropriate for a notesfile.
    
    - Ram

    > I wonder how Consumer Reports gets away with the things they print
    > about products and services.
    
    Maybe they don't get away with it.  Consumer Reports is in the business
    of exposing such businesses. Thus the "risk" in doing so, is an
    unavoidable part of their business.  DEC is not in that business.
    
    But a couple of points:
    
    	o Much like a newspaper, articles printed in Consumer Reports 
          go through a process of verification and editing.  In Notes
    	  there is no such process; you can say anything you want.
    
    	  Remember that the reason for this rule is NOT that it is
    	  improper or illegal to expose businesses that have truly done slimey
    	  things, but rather because it's impossible to tell whether
    	  the noter is indeed giving a fair and truthful recount,
    	  or libeling the business for whatever reason (grudge, etc.)
    
    	  In the absence of the ability to tell the difference, what
    	  other choice is there but to disallow anything that might
    	  be libelous?
    
    	o Consumer Reports generally restricts itself to verifiable
    	  facts demonstrated by scientific process.  They go out of
    	  their way to be as clear about the process and their objectivity
    	  as possible.
    
    	  These grudge notes however, are frequently full of subjective
    	  opinion, expressed through often extreme language like (from
    	  actual notes in MUSIC) "slimeballs", "rude", "assholes", etc.
    
    	o Many of these grudge notes call for boycotts.  It's clear the
    	  intention there goes beyond "informing".
    
    BTW, I know that you weren't trying to use CR as justification for
    allowing these kind of notes.  I'm sorta just answering your question
    by suggesting that what Consumer Reports does is somewhat safer
    than what goes on in notesfiles.
    
    	db

    
    Re: rathole
    
    Consumer Reports *has* been sued over their tests, the Bose case being
    best known.  Apparently Amar Bose was quite indignant when CR trashed
    the original 901 and spent years litigating for damages, I believe they
    finally settled out of court.  
    
    I have to say that in the past, in another notesfile, I wrote some
    stuff about boycotting a hi-fi dealer.  It was amazing how many people
    sent mail to me afterwards saying, "Yeah, I had trouble with them,
    too".  Plus a lot of people who felt that it was an isolated case.
    I felt like the only avenue open to me as a consumer was to tell
    people about the treatment I received.  It's unfortunate that this
    sort of thing is what we're talking about restricting.
    
    
    							Brian

> The only logical solution then
> is to ask our employees to refrain from using the Notesfiles to air
> grievances they have with individuals, vendors, or organizations.

> employees should understand that they may
> be personally liable if the statements they make cause harm to any
> person or business.

> there is some possibility Digital may be
> held liable for such comments as well.

If employees are  personally  liable  and  responsible for what they say,
then I don't see  any  conflict  of  interest  for  the  corporation.  So
another logical solution to the  problem is to inform employees that they
are personally responsible for what they  say.   Concerning this question
about  whether  or  not Digital is liable for comments that  an  employee
makes:  don't the lawyers already know the answer to this  true  or false
question?

> We are also
> asking moderators to go back and review the notesfiles they
> moderate and to remove any notes that include derogatory references to
> third-party businesses.

Good luck. Especially in conferences like CONSUMER.

/Mitch

    >If employees are  personally  liable  and  responsible for what they
    >say, then I don't see  any  conflict  of  interest  for  the 
    >corporation.
    
    Basically, the problem is the utter state of confusion that exists
    these days in the area of liability.
    
    There could be several explanations for why the corporation is libel:
    
    o The corporation is held liable for the "publication" of the
      damaging statements (there are legal precedents for separation
      of content and publication).
    
    o Have you ever heard of the "deepest pockets" principle?
    
      Here's a real story.
    
      DEC leased some land to a farmer who intended to use the land for
      raising cattle.  The lease stated that since the property wasn't
      currently being used for that purpose, it was the farmer's
      responsibility for providing the facilities necessary.  The lease
      also made a clear statement of the liability being assumed by
      the farmer.
    
      To make a long story short, a fence broke or fell over, a cow ended
      up on the road, someone got severely injured avoiding the cow, the
      driver's insurance company was not obliged to pick up the tab for
      the medical bills and, of course,  didn't.
    
      The farmer clearly didn't have enough money to pay for the bills,
      neither did the injured, the court decided that DEC was liable,
      and DEC picked up the (large) tab.
    
    o With the state of confusion about liability, the real issue becomes
      not what is DEC fairly held liable for, but rather what is DEC
      potentially held liable for - fairly or unfairly.
    
      As I said, there is legal precedent for publishers being held
      liable despite "disclaimers".  A lawyer has told me that most
      disclaimers with the words "not responsible for" can be defeated
      in court.  You ARE responsible for what the law holds you responsible
      for, not what YOU say you are responsible for.
    
      I know a lot of people hold the sentiment that we shouldn't have
      to make compromises for the sorry state of legal liability, but
      unfortunately that attitude commits DEC to spending money on
      upholding OUR sense of fairness.  As noble as that sounds,
      DEC isn't in that business and particularly in these times, can't
      afford the risk.
    
    o All issues of legal liability aside, DEC probably doesn't want to
      create bad blood between DEC and local establishments.  And while
      you might think the local sleazy salesman should hold his victim
      responsible and not DEC, we've already had instances that show
      us that that's not what happens (such as the incident which lead
      to the squashing of the HOME_WORK file).
    
    Basically, the idea is to not take undue risks that might cause
    this or any other conference to get blasted away.  It's unfortunate
    that it has to be that way, but isn't it better than no notes at all?
    
    	db

    According to the original series of notes (posted in the members-only
    MODERATORS conference), this is not to be interpreted as "policy",
    but simply as a general guideline.

    I don't disagree with your points, db - but I seriously doubt that this
    argument is worth the disk space it's taken up. 

    I'll say it again - if someone wants to gripe, have at it.  Just
    exercise good judgement.  If someone in legal wants to shut down the
    conference because of this stance, I'll gladly give any moderator privs
    I have in any conferences to whoever the powers that be see fit and
    never be seen in here again. 

    This is, in my mind, much ado about nothing.

-b

    > Much ado about nothing
    
    One conference, HOME_WORK, was shut down just a few weeks ago because
    of such a note.
    
    Therefore I'm at a loss to understand how you could consider this
    "nothing".  But you're the moderator and I don't need to understand
    your thinking.

And HOME_WORK is back up after taking care of the problem and setting a new 
rule.  My dad goes in there all the time and was in there this week.

Chad

    
    
    As we're now playing a game with the rules, rather than getting
    anything useful done, how about the following convention for possibly-
    contentious reviews:  
    
    Instead of entering a possibly negative review, instead enter:
    
      "I have some comments on <<<fill in the blank>>>; anyone 
      interested call me at XXX-XXXX and I'll give you the information."
    
    
    This may or may not circumvent the deep-pockets litigation problem;
    but it certainly does satisfy even the most stringent interpretation
    of the NOTES policy...
    
    	-Bill [who has some comments on this NOTES policy; anyone 
    		interested call me at 291-8243 and I'll give you the
    		information]
    
    -----
    
    BTW, this sort of circumlocution happens at other companies too; for
    instance, IBM has a very strict rule that one may not refer to any
    religion or religious symbol in their [centralized, controlled] version
    of NOTES.  So, instead of writing god, God, Jehovah, Brahma, Jesus, or
    even G*D,  the only officially approved way of indicating a Superior
    Being (or Beings) in IBMland is "@deity" .
             

    I'm somewhat dumfounded by the assertion that someone would feel
    offended if one of their ideas was published without their being cited.
    The only precedence for this attitude is in academia, where people's
    livelihood (tenure!) is a function of their publications and the impact
    of those writings on the field.
    
    You guys (and this is why this is a great notes conference) share TONS
    of information, USEFUL hard-won insightful valuable information. You
    share it freely (all you read-only guys, butt out). Do you do it so
    that your computer musical colleagues can benefit from your help? Or to
    point out that you're clever?! The latter would require a citation in
    Electronic Musician, perhaps, if it's not satisfying enough to see it
    published. My intuitive guess, though, is that the great majority of
    COMMUSIC noters take their reward from the good that goes to others. The
    joy of giving is genuine.
    
    I'm trying to make a contribution of my own. I thought that compiling
    the topic into a summary might be useful, internally as well as
    externally. I see no reason why the same principle doesn't extend
    beyond Easynet - the information is free, so why not let others
    benefit?
    
    And in the extremely unlikely event that I (1) write the article, (2)
    have it accepted, and (3) receive some recompense, then I've already
    pledged (in another electronic communication medium) to distribute the
    well-gotten gains in a way beneficial to at least a few of you noters.
    
    P.S. This entry has been scanned by two spelling-checker programs and
         one tech writer, so it's GUARANTEED that there are no mispellings.
    
    - Hoyt

    Hoyt,  I'm willing to reconsider my "I'd be mighty angry.." statement.
    
    I just put my info in here 'cause I like seeing my name in fonts.
    
    >I thought that compiling the topic into a summary might be useful, 
    >internally as well as externally. 
    
    Okay, it's just that the first time you mentioned it, it was for
    external music comix publication/
    
    >I see no reason why the same principle doesn't extend beyond Easynet 
    >- the information is free, so why not let others benefit?
    
    Hmm.  I haven't said anything in here I wouldn't share with any fellow
    MIDIholic, or wannabe MIDIholic.  Okay by me !
    
    karl
    
    

    Oh wow!  A moral issue?  My favorite kind.
    
    I give you permission to take anything I've said and use it uncredited.
    
    However, IMHO A person shouldn't have to defend wanting credit where
    credit it due.  I obviously take the "academic" view here.  I think
    it's unfair to presume that wanting credit is a matter of ego.
    
    The only thing you could do that would really bother me is
    if you were to present these ideas as your own (i.e.  you acknowledge
    in your article where these ideas came from).  I know that that
    is not your intention.
    
    	db

            <<< Note 14.175 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >>>
>    The only thing you could do that would really bother me is
>    if you were to present these ideas as your own (i.e.  you acknowledge
>    in your article where these ideas came from).  
    
    .. and thereby endanger the continuing existence of Commusic ?
    
    karl, entering this from my new VRE01/VT1000 combination with a yellow
    Albert Einstein staring at me... unfortunately this is going to a trade
    show tomorrow (sob!)

    I could get EM to send me enough copies of the article to distribute to
    each of the contributing noters, who could then highlight the parts
    they pitched in, for their own and friends' amazement.
    
    I'm a beginner, and this is a complicated business. I think that issues
    like organizing one's studio are important at (or near) the neophyte's
    start with MIDI etc. Perhaps it would be a service to collect these
    articles in a note topic, so beginners could start there.
    
    As for the article: I'm going to take credit for all the ideas. It
    should be perfectly straightforward: following are seven basic
    strategies, each of which is redundant with at least one other, all of
    which I practice in my studio, which consists of a Roland Super
    JX-10. EM should accept that, don't you think?
    
    How about I follow the advice of our excellent co-moderator and omit
    references to organizations which would rather not be mentioned. Notice
    my discretion! "This article summarizes the experience of a dozen
    people who've long grappled with the problem of organizing their home
    studios." Hmmm, talk about academic. "Man, it was, like, totally messed
    up, you know, I couldn't figure out what was where when, so I had to
    get my #$%^ together, and I checked with these dudes I know who had it
    ALL happening, man." Hmmm, apparently dialect isn't my forte. Muse,
    where are you, muse? I guess this whole journalistic enterprise is
    academic.
    
    For the terminally non-droll: the paragraph about how I was going to
    take all credit was facetious.
    
    Let's close this circle, and end this discussion, and go home and
    practice our chops.
    
    - Hoyt

re: DNEAST being slow

As the system manager I'd like to blame it on Teamdata :-) but, I'm going to 
compress the file this weekend in the hopes that this may help.

dbii

    
<   P.S. This entry has been scanned by two spelling-checker program and
<   one tech writer, so it's GUARANTEED that there are no mispellings.
    
    I guess they didn't read the P.S..  It's "misspellings", as in
    mis-spellings.
    
    Sorry for the breach of noting etiquette, but this was too sweet to
    pass up.
    
    Anyway, it seems easy enough for Hoyt to explain that he regularly
    trades helpful hints with a bunch of capable MIDIots without saying
    exactly how.  E.g., LERDS-BIM serves a similar purpose.  If you want to
    get really academic about it, individual contributions could be cited
    as "personal communication"s, again without saying how.
    
    len.
    

    "Mispellings" was a joke, son, a joke! 
    
    Here's a good one for you: how do you spell meringue? (It works better
    in a conversation.)
    
    - H
    
    P.S. Len, since reading one of your notes (Music?) about television
         being more of a danger to Our Nation's Youth than outragious
         song lyrics, I've joined up with your fan club and have the 
         poster and the decoder ring and everything. I refer to our
         children's television as "the devil box" or "the Great Satan."
    
    - H (who reads books, sort of analog computer screens)

    I thought it might have been, but in the grand tradition established
    earlier in this note, decided to assume the worst and go for the
    jugular.
    
    I have it on good authority that books are actually a digital medium.
    After all, they are organized into discrete "pages", just like virtual
    memory.
    
    P.S. Hoyt - I still have that JX-10 article for you.
    
    len.
    

    That spelling of outrajous a couple back is outraygeous.
    
    Yours,
    
    Outraidjed of Reading.

The Glover Policy memo doesn't belong on 2334.4 or whatever as a reply
to my "Truth in Advertising" note which was hidden.  That policy memo
belongs here cross-referenced to that note.  The policy memo has nothing
to do with "Truth in Advertising", but it does have to do with Conference 
Issues, which is this note.

I request the moderator move it.
Actually, I think that it was already posted once in this note somewhere 
and discussed.

Chad

            <<< DNEAST::SYS$PROD3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;1 >>>
             -< * * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * * >-
================================================================================
Note 2334.4                   Truth in advertising                        4 of 4
DNEAST::BOTTOM_DAVID "Nice computers don't go down"  48 lines   8-MAY-1990 16:42
                                -< Policy memo >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In response to several incidents, Ron Glover, Corporate Personnel
    Policy Manager) has issued the following memo.
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
        
Over the last several months Digital has been contacted by a number of
individuals and business entities that were angry about negative
comments made about them in our Notesfiles and Conferences.  As the
Personnel Policy Manager for Digital I have been the recipient of many
of those notes.  I thought I should take the time to post this note to
inform employees that it is not appropriate for them to make negative
comments or references about any person or business entity in any of
Digital's employee interest notesfile or conferences.

There are several reasons why we are establishing this rule.
The first has to do with fundamental fairness.  It is simply not fair
for an employee to make a negative comment about a business when we
don't provide those businesses an opportunity to respond and defend
themselves.  This is particularly true given the fact that we have no
way of determining whether the comment is honest, fair or accurate.
Clearly Digital has no intention, or desire, to open up its notesfiles
to third-party businesses so that they can engage in a debate about
whether they provide quality services.  The only logical solution then
is to ask our employees to refrain from using the Notesfiles to air
grievances they have with individuals, vendors, or organizations.

In addition to out concerns about fairness, we are concerned about the
potential damage that these kinds of comments may cause to third-party
businesses.  In that regard, employees should understand that they may
be personally liable if the statements they make cause harm to any
person or business.  Moreover, there is some possibility Digital may be
held liable for such comments as well.  Stated more simply, comments
made in a Notesfile or conference are in no way privileged or immune
from claims of liable, slander or defamation.

We are asking all of the users of Notesfiles to exercise discretion and
judgement in the comments that they make in the system.  We are also
asking moderators to go back and review the notesfiles they
moderate and to remove any notes that include derogatory references to
third-party businesses.

Please feel free to contact your moderator if you have any questions
on this subject.

Ron Glover
Corporate Peronnel Policy Manager

    SET MODE/NOMOD
    
    Ya know folks, back 5 or so years ago when I entered my first note in
    here, COMMUSIC (and Notes in general) was a place where people got
    together to discuss subjects of common interest. It kind of reminded
    me of a neighborhood bistro. Nothing much ever left the venue, everyone
    knew each other, and any disagreements were taken "out back"
    (off-line).
    
    Times have changed. The neighborhood bar expanded. No longer can we 
    operate under the idea that "it stays here". It doesn't. COMMUSIC is
    more like The Hard Rock Cafe than Joe's place. 
    
    We're a force. Ask any major music equipment dealer in MA. if they've 
    heard of us. They have. Ideas bopped around in here make it to the
    UseNet. I'd bet good money the music comix would love to talk to any of
    us. Drop our name at NAMM and I'll bet someone will know who we are. (I
    bet Roland has a wing named after len. ;^))
    
    Frankly, I like where we've gone. When I hear that someone I've never
    heard of was discussing an idea we had in here I feel kinda proud.
    There's alot of musical and engineering talent in COMMUSIC.
    
    Why the waxing? I just wanna remind everyone that "the old days" are
    gone. We don't operate anonymously. We grew and, like it or not, it's
    too late to argue the point. We have responsibilities. The benefits of
    having COMMUSIC are not without price.
    
    Please. Just be carefull. The job you save may be mine! (My cat would
    never forgive the change of lifestyle...)
    
    Edd                                             

    A few thoughts in reply to Edd..
    
        <<< Note 14.185 by DCSVAX::COTE "Strom clods are forming..." >>>
    
    >We're a force. 
    
    	Your spelling is atrocious.
    
    >Ask any major music equipment dealer in MA. if they've heard of us. 
    >They have. 
    
    	Thanks to Dave Orin and the rest of you spendthrift MIDIholics..
    
    >Ideas bopped around in here make it to the UseNet. 
    
    	I'd like to know who's extracting and forwarding these ideas... 
    	kind of uncool IMO.
    
    >I'd bet good money the music comix would love to talk to any of
    >us. 
    
    	Okay, and they can print my picture, too.  I just won't admit to
    	working here.  "A large computer company, commonly identified by
    	its initials, and it's NOT IBM."  Except I hate to give the credit
    	to DG.  Seriously, I believe a dynamite article about life on the 
    	Easynet could be written from a COMMUSIC perspective - except that
    	the very article could be hazardous to the conference.
    
    >Drop our name at NAMM and I'll bet someone will know who we are. 
    
    	Aren't you stretching it a bit ?
    
    >(I bet Roland has a wing named after len. ;^))
    
    	No argument there.  The "Fehskens-san Wishing Fix Department".
    
    >Frankly, I like where we've gone. When I hear that someone I've never
    >heard of was discussing an idea we had in here I feel kinda proud.
    
    	Well, I miss the old days when we could snarl and get it on without 
    	adhering to corporate Notes policies.. back before the company
    	really realized how VAXnotes was being used.  Yes, we have to be
    	more circumspect.  And no, I don't buy that COMMUSIC's participants 
    	are a 'force' or an influence on the music industry in any way.
    	Except for those noters that left to work for Kurzweil...
    
    karl

    re: .185
    
    I was thinking something	 similar today myself. Yep, them good 'ol
    days are gone,, now it's like we work for a Corporation run by
    businessmen rather than engineers. C'est la vie, fare thee well sandbox.
    
    dbii
    

RE: usenet

While it was a nice thought, I've been reading rec.music.synth here for awhile
and the only notes that make both USENET and COMMUSIC are originals, ones
the author submits to both places.  About the only COMMUSICers that I've 
noticed in rec.music.synth with any regularity are Eirikur, Brian, 
and now and then myself.

Chad

re: DEC and who runs it.

Let us be glad that at least the professional managers haven;t quite taken 
completely over yet 


� :-)

Chad

    re: 14.186, SALSA::MOELLER, A few thoughts...
    
    Karl -- you're funny when you snarl!!   :-)     I was pretty down
    until I read your reply! Thanks!!
    
    re: 14.185 -- Ed, thanks for saying it just right... I was composing
    (whew, unintended there) my reply, and got heated up about corporate
    politics, et al, and then realized I didn't need to do that. Your
    reply said it fine!
    
    re: *.* -- Keep the Ideas and Reactions flowing! This is the best
    conference I'm involved with!!
    
    Bruce Evans

    
    	and, for a man who wants santa to deliver kelly bundy under the
    tree, Edd spells just fine.....;-)
    
    	by the same token, i have difficulty associating the same mind
    with such sincere, corporate citizenship, but be that as it may, yes
    you are most probably right, and we should all wear ties when
    conversing in this conference from now on.
    
    	i figured roland had a building for len by now....
    
    
    	bob
    

re: .191

Tie?  What tie?  Geez, ties constrict the flow of blood
to your brain and you can guess the consequences of that! 

:-)

Oh never mind...I just couldn't resist.

re:  being known *everywhere*

I've been checking out some far-off (from Hudson, MA) music
places, like Carusos in CT...believe me, people know about
COMMUSIC.

Usually lurking....

/Chris

re :-.1

of course Caruso's knows COMMUSIC, Dave O was a a pusher of Commusic and
DECMS and also a regular at Caruso's.

Most stores listed as DECMS sites know COMMUSIC.  Most others don't unless
COMMUSIC regulars frequent those stores too..

Chad

This conference will be unavaliable this Sunday for a major portion of the 
day.

We're moving notes$library to a new disk, we're defragging the files, we're
compressing the files and based on an experiment I did last night this
should/will solve the speed problems we've been seeing.

your friendly sysmgr/moderator

dbii

    Yes, almost every local music store and major nationwide MO place
    knows about us.
    
    That's the good side because it means when you walk in and mention
    COMMUSIC/DCMS they know you know your stuff, they know you have
    access to information about what other stores are charging, they
    know that the chances are good that you are a serious buyer and
    that (by virtue of working for DEC) you usually you have more money
    to spend than their average customer, etc. etc.
    
    I *KNOW* this to be true at the stores I deal with.  I think that
    because of my association with COMMUSIC I enjoy considerable
    advantages both monetary and otherwise.
    
    The bad side is that they also know that ANY bad press in COMMUSIC
    *HAS* to be taken seriously because of our influence.
    
    I think the good far outweighs the bad - besides, we can talk about
    ANYTHING we want at LERDS-BIMS anyway.
    
    	db

    re: Conference Speed
    
    Seems 10,000 times better to me today...the compress and defrag of the
    file helped *MY* response time.
    
    Anybody not see any inmprovement?
    
    dbii

    I'll confirm that improvement factor.  It sure looks like about 10,000
    times faster to me.
    
    	Eirikur
    

    Ja, mon, 10K at least...
    
    Edd

    Great improvement from Canada.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Ken
    

Thanks Dave. Very fast response time now. Excellent!

Mike D 

Actually I wish I had done it a few weeks ago, but thanks

and sorry for the delays...

dbii

    Good response from Buzzard Beach, AZ
    
    karl

    Gee, I bet there are some folks out there with at least as much stuff
    from one manufacturer as I have from Roland.  And besides, during my
    last clearance sale I outplaced at least 5 Roland boxes.  And there's
    at least one box by Yamaha, Korg, Oberheim, 360Systems, JLCooper etc.
    in my setup.
    
    You gotta wonder how these unwarranted stereotypes get started...
    
    len.
    

Hey,

COMMUSIC is famous!  Just saw a note in the Mac conference about negative 
reviews and how they can cause your note to get tromped on with COMMUSIC
being the refered to example.

:-)

Chad

ps:  This is not to be intended as a swipe at our moderators -- they do the job
they feel is necessary and they are the ones who have accepted responsibility
for COMMUSIC and I support them 100% in this.  I just thought the Mac reference 
was amusing.

    There's been a couple notes entered in COMMUSIC lately with a tag
    along the lines of "Mods - I can't find a place for this. Feel free
    to move it..."
    
    There are keywords that can be used. A mod will be happy to create
    any keyword that doesn't already exist... Brad did a lot of work
    to organize the file; please make use of it.
    
    ...and don't be afraid to start a new note!!! If one of the mods 
    sees a new note and knows that subject is already under discussion,
    the note will probably be moved. 
    
    But, if you couldn't find the correct topic after you dilligently
    searched for it, chances are we won't either and your note will
    get lost in an unrelated string.
    
    Please don't leave house-keeping up to the moderators. I don't object
    to fixing a mistake or an oversight but the ultimate organization of
    the file is up to the MEMBERS...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Edd
    Co-mod
    

    can I plead innocent?
    but I'm new to this notesfile.
    but I've not used notes very much anyway.
    yes I read the rules.
    yes I looked through a bunch of the keywords and their notes.
    no I don't have 4 hours a day to spend on NOTES: more like 15 minutes.
    but 25,000+ notes kinda like you know scares the bejeebees out a me.
    but I thought it was OK to "reuse" old notes for newer related stuff.
    but I DID put my new note in an existing note about MIDI_PROCESSORs.
    
    Should I just skip the offending phrase ("I don't know if ...") and
    just charge ahead? I thought I ought to warn folks that what they're
    reading might be out of place.
    
    anyway... I'll be more careful next time - and less shy about simply
    adding a new topic.

    I hereby judge you innocent....:^)
    
    Seriously, the mods don't have 4 hours a day either, and we appreciate
    it when you make it easy for us.
    
    Edd

    Which is why I thought we shoulda archived this conference and opened a
    new one...
    
+b

    I just noticed that I'm over 100 notes behind in adding keywords (at
    least) ... and it doesn't look like I'm going to have time in the near
    future to do so.
    
    Apologies to the readership, and of course I regret any inconvenience.
    Problem is, with Dan & me gone most of the time now, Uncle Edd is the
    only active moderator.  Ah well . . .
    
+b

Here is just an idea for the moderators

When moving notes, just use SET NOTE/NOTE_ID=new_note_id

This moves the note to the specified place and leaves in original author
and all that stuff.  It also causes people who have already seen it to not
have to see it again.

rgds
Chad

    re: .210
    
    SET NOTE/NOTE_ID only works on conferences created (or rebuilt)
    with a certain version of the NOTES file structure.
    
    I suspect it wouldn't work here in COMMUSIC without asking Brad
    to update the file (a somewhat involved process).
    
    But I think it's a good idea (I did that in MUSIC).
    
    	db

oh OK.

It does sound like a good dea however because ofthe "cleanliness" in moving
notes that way and it is probably a lot easier for the mods to move notes that
way instead of extracting and reposting or however they do it.

Anyway, whatever they want

chad

    I've chosen to delete note 2457.16.
    
    Why? I was contacted by a reader of this conference who felt the note
    was in violation of Ron Glover's memo concerning negative reviews of
    businesses.
    
    While I *personally* read the note and didn't think it was all too
    out of the ordinary, my feeling is if it attracts enough attention 
    to warrant someone writing to me and copying Glover's memo to me
    then I'm gonna get REAL conservative.
    
    Given the climate in Digital today, I'm not inclined to stick my neck
    out.
    
    Edd
    
    co-mod

    BTW - to the author of ex-note 2457.16...
    
    I'd have contacted you personally but attempting to send you mail results
    in "login information invalid at remote node".
    
    Edd

    
    
    
    No problem Edd I realise that freedom is a relative term.
    
    					Paul.
    
    

    The "DPM-3 Whadaya think" note has been moved to 2458.
    
    I once again request new (and even experienced) users of the conference
    to familiarize themselves with the use of keywords and the "next
    unseen" feature.
    
    This is a big conference. Your help in keeping it organized is
    appreciated.
    
    Edd Cote
    COMMUSIC Co-moderator

    I'd like to remind ALL participants in this conference that the use of
    company resources for personal profit is against company policy. Please
    do not use COMMUSIC to sell your product, regardless of how closely
    related it may be to the subject at hand.
    
    The posting of "For Sale" ads for personal property is permitted.
    
    Edd Cote
    COMMUSIC Co-moderator

    In case you all weren't aware, former moderator Dan Eaton has "accepted
    the package" (as in Phase III).  He is no longer with Digital.  I
    wonder how many other COMMUSICers have been hit ...
    
+b

    Just as a side note, I remember Dan transferred to the Midwest as part
    of the company's move to get people into sales support.  Guess they
    changed their minds.    8;( 
    
    						Brian

well not to rathole, but most of the first wave moved into customer support/EIS
type positions. What we're hearing here in ASO is that those jobs were now
the target of the latest reduction efforts.

Dan if you're still out there today, good luck, we'll miss you.

dbii

    Bummer, bummer, bummer ...

    yes, unfortunately the field is basically a LIFO system.
    
    karl

    Maybe it's the alignment of the planets, bio-rhythms, an errant batch
    job or something else, but a certain phenomena seems to crop up 
    occasionally that drives me, as a co-moderator, a little nutty...
    
    	"The moderator may feel free to move this..."
    
    All the moderators have jobs to do for DEC. We moderate notesfiles
    as time allows. The notesfile belongs to the READERS. The mods aren't
    the owners or the "bosses". We also aren't a maid service, swooping in
    after hours to dutifully restore order.
    
    This conference has, thanks to Brad, one of the most extensive lists of
    keywords I've ever seen. At one point EVERY note had a keyword
    attached, a feature I've yet to see ANY place else. I strongly suggest
    each and every user of this conference take a moment to learn how to
    use such commands as "DIR/KEY" and "DIR/TITLE" and post their note in
    an existing topic, or start a new one if need be.
    
    This mod does not "feel free" to move the note, he feels put upon, but
    I do it as my way of returning the tons of information I've scarfed
    from here over the years.
    
    Your cooperation is appreciated.
    
    Edd Cote
    COMMUSIC Co-mod

I agree with Edd but also am guilty of doing what 
he talked about because of one basic thing -- some
folks in the remote boondocks of the company have
no (nullo, zilcho, etc) net response so anything is 
painful (even just reading), but more importantly,
often the question or thought doesn't seem to fit
the base note, though later replies probably don't
either. What I mean is, I am Joe Noter and my Y* DX6726
zippo synth has a problem in its architecture I'd like
to discuss.  I do a dir/key and/or dir/title and see
two notes for the DX6726 zippo synth with the following
titles "Y* DX6726 patches for trading" and
"My DX6726 from Y* has a broken key, HELP!".  Ok, where
does my note go?  Based on previous experience I know
people are going to complain and/or move my note 
somewhere else saying this has been discussed already
(probably in the "key is broken" note above in reply
.7829) but the info from my DIR commands shows no note
that seems to be appropriate...

Anyway, I have no answers but it is a problem I have
in every conference I note in almost.

Maybe tolerance and trust people to put it someplace
they feel is reasonable (and attach a keyword and use
reasonable title so future folks can find it too)?  
Just bite the bullet and play maid??

Chad

re: .223

I think you might be being a bit testy here.  I personally would
interpret "the moderators may feel free to move this note" (or whatever
the exact wording was) as meaning "if the moderator decides this isn't
the right place for this note and moves it elsewhere, I won't be
offended".

-Hal

    That may often be the case. Another, often explicitly stated, scenario 
    is "I didn't look, so the mod can move this...".
    
    Edd

  I agree with all sides of the issue in the past few replies...

  Sometimes it is hard to decide if you note fits in a particular existing
  topic... (and lord knows many topics deviate sometimes unbelievably from
  the original note!)

  Use your best judgement.  (some are obvious, but I think a lot really are
  subjective to whether they belong or not)


  As far as slow response time... I believe things have been done to ease
  the task of searching the conference.  For instance, there's a topic
  that exist for the sole purpose of posting a listing of existing topics!
  Maybe that needs to be updated... but if you take the time to copy over
  that one note (maybe overnite or in a batch job) then you'll have a local
  text file of existing topics.  Look for other ways such as this to help.

  
  Lastly, thank you Edd and the rest of the mods/co-mods for keeping house!

-Tom Robert

    This memo is entered as a reminder that we are watched. There have been
    no incidents to prompt me to post it, but read and heed....
    
    Edd Cote
    
    COMMUSIC Co-mod
    
    
    
                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     30-Jan-1992 
                                        From:     John Sims
                                                  SIMS.JOHN AT A1 at CORA @ CORE
                                        Dept:     Strategic Resources
                                        Tel No:   223-7243

TO:  Employee Interest Notes File Participants 


Subject:  A message to employee interest notes file users

           A MESSAGE TO EMPLOYEE INTEREST NOTES FILE USERS
    
    Over the last few months I have received a number of complaints 
    from employees, and individuals outside of the company about 
    material communicated in electronic mail systems and posted in 
    various employee interest notes files.  After reading some of this 
    material it is clear that a reminder about appropriate comment and 
    behavior in these systems is necessary.
    
    First, and most critically; the electronic mail systems and notes 
    files are company facilities subject to normal workplace rules of 
    conduct.   As such, the same rules that govern conduct and comment 
    in any other Digital workplace apply with equal weight in these 
    systems.  Stated simply, if you wouldn't say something in a 
    Digital business meeting, you shouldn't say it in electronic mail 
    or notes. PERIOD.  
    
    Statements that attribute improper, illegal or immoral motives or 
    actions to others; statements that cast aspersions on the 
    character or integrity of others or that amount to libel or 
    slander are not permitted. PERIOD.  In this regard, it does not 
    matter whether the individuals subject to the comment are elected 
    public officials or directors of organizations disfavored by the 
    author.   There is no "Public Figure" exception in these systems.
    
    Comments of a sexual nature are not acceptable whether they are 
    about the author or directed at others.  Similarly, comments that 
    degrade, devalue or discriminate against others are also 
    prohibited.
    
    Neither the notes conferences nor electronic mail should be used 
    to solicit other employees.  This prohibition covers efforts to 
    solicit employees for personal or political gain, to sell or 
    market goods or services (except authorized marketplace or 
    discount conferences) and efforts to solicit employees to take 
    action, sign petitions or support particular causes or candidates.
    
    Finally, employees should remember that it is never appropriate to 
    spend working time in employee interest notes for non-work 
    purposes.  Personal or entertainment activities in these notes 
    files should be limited to assigned break times, lunch time and 
    before or after business hours.  
    
    Employee interest notes files and conferences provide an 
    electronic forum to share ideas and opinions about matters of 
    common interest.  In supporting these conferences, the company 
    understood that there would be occasions where employees would 
    disagree on issues being discussed, but we believed and continue 
    to believe it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.  
    Personnel Policy 6.54, Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems 
    and Networks provides further information about appropriate 
    conduct and comment in these systems.  Employees who fail to meet 
    these expectations, or who use company computer systems in ways 
    that are contrary to the letter or spirit of that policy are 
    subject to Corrective Action and Discipline up to and including 
    the termination of their employment.
    
    The moderators of these conferences, along with your system 
    managers, personnel representatives and the Personnel Policy 
    Manager are all available to answer any question you might have 
    about appropriate use of these systems.
    
    Please feel free to forward this memo to other Digital notes 
    files and conferences.

>TO:  Employee Interest Notes File Participants 


>Subject:  A message to employee interest notes file users

>           A MESSAGE TO EMPLOYEE INTEREST NOTES FILE USERS
  

Errr... was that intended for... ahhh... employee interest notes file users?

It wasn't completely clear to me. ;^)

>TO: Last Reply - I think you got it right

>Subject:  A reply to last reply, I think you got it right

>	A REPLY TO LAST REPLY I THINK YOU GOT IT RIGHT

Asked with a least a tinge of seriousness...

>>>    Neither the notes conferences nor electronic mail should be used 
>>>    to solicit other employees.  This prohibition covers efforts to 
>>>    solicit employees for personal or political gain, to sell or 
>>>    market goods or services (except authorized marketplace or 
>>>    discount conferences) and efforts to solicit employees to take 
>>>    action, sign petitions or support particular causes or candidates.

   It used to be that selling one-of-a-kind items (i.e., you're not in this to 
sell products as a `business') used to be allowed.  Does anyone who has the time
to read up on this latest reminder know if that kind of `for sale' note is
still permissible.

   I ask not to get into a big discussion about the memo.  I just wouldn't want
to risk my 2nd favorite employee interest notes conference (or my precious
paycheck) by trying to sell some stuff here.

Long live note 12!

- John -

    It is my belief (FWIW) that "one-shot" sales are still OK...
    
    Edd

    Yup.  Unless we get specifics, 12 lives on.  If they shut down 4sale
    notes, they'll have to have the PC police running around tearing ads
    off company bulletin boards ...
    
+b

    > they'll have to have the PC police running around tearing ads
    > off company bulletin boards ...
    
    Not to mention the most useful section of "Digital This Week".
    
    	db