Conference kaosws::canada

    The Americans do have a point but the problem is that they do not stand
    by their convictions. They trade with China and other dictatorial
    regimes, yet when it comes to Cuba it is a hands-off policy. I really do
    not think that it is a debate about whether we should be trading with
    Cuba or not. The debate is 'do the Americans have a right to tell other
    countries where to trade?' The ethics of trading with Cuba is a debate
    for Canadian Citizens to decide, and not for Mr. Helms and Mr. Burton
    from the U.S. 
    
    Fidel Castro represents the last snub at the American way of life, he
    is a hold over from the Cold War and a dictator whose human rights
    record is absymal. Should we trade with him in hope that it will help
    the people of Cuba or will it help Castro tighten his reign over Cuba
    due to an increase in currency (power)? If the U.S. really wanted to
    dipose of Castro they would have lauched an offensive years ago. Why
    haven't they? If it is human lives and misery at stake, then why not
    commit to extinguishing the problem. I think the American stance is 
    just to placate the Cuban political contigent in Florida while they
    fill up their coffers with political contributions. I am not being
    anti-american as they have defended in the past the values of 
    Western Culture (in which we belong) across the world. Yet I find their
    stance on Human Rights just so hypocritical. 
    
    Regards,
    
    Sean

    
    Dispose of Castro? What about the Bay of Pigs??
    
    The list of wounds goes way way back on this one..

    The Bay of Pigs was unoffical and not recognized by the U.S.
    government. This allowed the U.S. to commit certain American soldiers
    to train and fight along with Cuban Nationals. It was done this way
    because if the U.S. had of performed a full scale invasion, the USSR
    would have intervened and perhaps we would have seen World War III. The
    political climate at the time was tense and the Super powers were on 
    the brink of war. Things have changed since the cold war ended, and all
    it would take would be a small ground force (remember Panama) to dispose 
    of Castro. The problem is that it would cost American lives, something 
    no President wants to be remember for. So, the U.S. does not invade to 
    make the majority of U.S. citizens happy, and keeps the heavy line on 
    Cuba to make the Cuban contigent in the U.S. happy. You are also right
    about the wound thing, it is more of a 'Make Castro pay for the past
    for defying us.'
    
    Will getting rid of Castro help the people of Cuba? I have seen other
    islands in the region in worse shape (St. Kitts/Turks and Cacos/
    D.R.) than Cuba. In Cuba the people are educated and have health
    care, but they are still poor due to lack of trade. Do the Human Rights
    violations supercede the general welfare of the whole population?
    
      
    Sean

    
    Re.3 "..all it would take is a small ground force"????
    
    Really?  Do you think Panama had several divisions of troops, jet
    fighters, SAM networks, and a huge force of battle-hardened troops?
    Any idea how much damage those Cuban construction workers did in
    Grenada?  
    
    It would be very, very bloody and hardly welcome.  Ask some marines 
    how many it would take to take Havana room-by-room.  Castro has at
    least half the population that really back him.  
    
    When Cuba 'opens' is must be internally, post - Castro, from within the 
    system, like in Russia.
    
    Marshall
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    on the news the other night, they were covering Axworthy's trip to
    Cuba.  They briefly interviewed some workers at Sherritt's (SP?)
    operation.  The workers were making a decent buck, by Cuba's standards. 
    Are they being exploited?  By our standards, not theirs.  Does it make
    me uncomfortable to see them make $25/month (or a similarly small
    amount)?  Yes it does.  But it would make me much more uncomfortable to
    give aid $ to a corrupt regime.  Trade with a corrupt regime is much
    better than aid to a corrupt regime.  I was pleased that some
    concessions were made on the side of human rights.  These sounded
    significant, but the media commentators seemed to indicate they were
    minor in nature.  Oh well.
    
    As to the Bay of Pigs.  Wasn't that escapade backed by the CIA?  Does
    it suprise you that it wasn't 'officially sanctioned'?  Not me.
    
    Perhaps the US reaction to Castro is one of David and Goliath.  Or
    perhaps they have a problem with the fact that they 'lost' the bay of
    pigs.  Or perhaps, they just like to have a bad guy around to blame
    every now and then, as well as to justify the ridiculous military
    budget they still have.
    
    I'd be interested in seeing the cash flows on that Sherritt deal
    though to see how much is going to the 'state' of Cuba.  
    

    
    Remember, the guy smokes those big Monte Cristos, it won't
    be that long until he wakes up and starts coughing up
    chunks of lung.
    
    FWIW

      At least Castro is predictable, what happens when el'presidenta dies?
    Civil War/Coup? I feels sorry for the people of Cuba, but the fact they
    have not risen up and disposed of Castro makes me suspect that he has
    more than half the population on his side. I say trade! But with some
    restrictions on human rights. I do think the transition to democracy
    like Russia endured will be more violent and bloody. Sort of like Hati.
    Small ground force... 50000 troops would do it! or one snipers bullet.
    
    Sean

    You know what? I really don't give a load of dingos kidneys about Cuba
    or the companies that deal with it or Helms/Burton. Really, who cares?
    500 million in business? That's piddly. There are more important
    things to worry about.

    re. 8
    
    What's your point?  If you don't like the discussion stay out of it.
    It's not out of line or personal yet, not that I had noticed.  
    
    Who pissed in your cornflakes?
    
    
    
     
    
    
    
     
    
     
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    My point is it's much ado about nothing. I thought my point was
    obvious.

    |It's not out of line or personal yet, not that I had noticed.

    So? I'm not allowed to have an opinion because I'm a moderator?

    |Who pissed in your cornflakes?

    I don't know, but I wish he'd wait until I poured them into a bowl.

    
    No, not to me.  It sounded like you were trivializing the topic
    and it's contributors, rather than the issue.   
    
    Of course being a moderator doesn't mean you can't trivialize anything your
    little heart desires.  Pull an EDP if you feel like it (warn us first,
    though).
    
    Canada has a tradition of much ado about nothing, or least carrying on 
    for years in a lather.  i.e. Blood enquiry, Somalia, some jerk stomps
    on a flag, blah, blah.  
    
    Sorry about the corn flakes.  I understand the cat was actually aiming at 
    the Fruit Loops but was reading the french side of the box and got
    confused.  
      
    
          

    |Pull an EDP if you feel like it

    What and get myself sued?

    
    Good point.  It'd make a good topic for ::CANADA, though,
    and you might get an interview with Wendy Mesley. 
    
    
    
    

    !!!
    
    Where do I sign up!!!!
    
    {fwoooaaaar}

    What's an EDP?
    
    Sean
    
    
    

    
    EDP is a very unique "noter" (see the Digital file) with a different
    style.
    
    Can't say more than that as managers, lawyers, and US labour
    authorities frequently get involved. Moderators tremble at their
    keyboards.  
    
    
    
    
    
    
     

    Not sure where the $500 mil figure came from but if that is the trade
    between Canada and Cuba, I think it IS worthwhile discussing.  Get your
    head out of the US-based mindset (multi-trillion$ economy, world
    leader, superpower, etc.) and realize that this is Canada and Cuba at
    issue - both small-mid sized countries and economies.  $500 Mil?  what
    is Digital's total sales in Canada per year?  You get the idea, don't
    you?

    I still maintain that 500 mil in business isn't much to warrant the
    attention it's getting. 

    I got that figure from an article I read when this whole thing got
    started. That was the worth of the total transactions, it wasn't
    profits or revenues.

    The picture is U.S. trade is our bread and butter whether we like it or
    not.

    RE. -1
    
    	The U.S's trade with Canada is also their bread and butter. I think
    the U.S. is mad that they cannot have a shot at Cuba's markets due to
    Castro being el'presidenta. Lets see how much the Americans would like
    it if Canada being pushed by Chinese Nationalists decided to make a law
    similar to the Helms/Burton law. Any U.S. company doing business on
    lands formerly owned/ruled by Chiang Kai-shek and his Nationalist party
    supporters would forfeit their earnings in Canada. So Coca-cola and
    McDee's profits would now belong to Chinese-Canadians who suffered
    under Mao's reign. Make sense to me. The whole absudity of the U.S.
    telling other countries where to trade only controvenes their
    capitalist doctrine of free markets and trade. 
    
        The 500 million is just chicken feed, but the right to trade to 
    whoever you want is the decision of our sovereign nation not the U.S's. 
    And until I see the Red, White and Blue flying on Parliament Hill (some
    day maybe), the U.S. can just bite me on this issue. I still have not
    decided though if it is a good idea to trade with Castro.
    
    Sean
                                            

    Well, I think that the U.S policy is egocentric too, be that as it may,
    who is more important to us? Why do we care so much about Cuba? We must
    remember how deeply the wound runs for Americans when it comes to
    Cuba.

    I agree that philosophically it goes against all America stands for.
    After all, it was born out of revolution in which many people lost
    property and business.

    Also, let's not forget that Americans, by virtue of being our
    neighbours, helped us survive the cold war.

    I just don't think Cuba/Castro is worth straining what is probably an
    international partnership that is the envy of the world.

    Brian! Brian Mulroney!! You're back!!
    
    :^)
    

    You'll have to come out of your house one day....
    
    
    ;^)

    Think I'll go smoke a mellow Cuban Cigar.