Conference kaosws::canada

    I would like to know where our "allies" are. I now know why some people
    in England were not in favour of joining the EU. I expect France to
    turn their back, they do it so well, but where are all the rest of the
    countries Canadians spilled blood to protect ? Kissing EU butt if you
    ask me. Spain is well known for their HOOVER approach to fishing, and are
    really heating up the propoganda war.
    
    Apparently we are liars and can't be trusted. We fabricated the evidence
    that they are 1. over fishing and 2. catching under sized fish. I presume
    we did all of this from the deck of the aircraft carrier we sent to the
    area. I would hate to see this go much further, but the thought that
    our allies are defending Spain (notorious plunderer through the ages)
    and not Canada makes me mad.
    
     I say surface a sub beside the Spanish "war" ship and signal:
    
     "Remeber the Rio Grande?"
    
    							Derek.
    
    (PS. I Think the Rio Grande is the battleship the British sunk in the
    tussle with Argentina)

    What do you all think about the issue?
    
    It's obvious that the fish stocks are depleted, and that further
    fishing will only cotinue to reduce the numbers..BUT..the Spanish
    vessel was in International waters.  I can see why Spain is upset and I
    understand the justification of seizing the boat.
    
    Who is right? What's going to happen when the Spanish 'back-up'
    arrives? and how can OJ's defence use this whole incident against Mark
    Fermin?...8*)
    
    Stephen
    

    re .1
    
    wasn't that the General Belgrano?
    
    Mike.

I say we call on the help of Greenpeace! If that doesn't scare Spanish fishing
boats and the Spanish navy I don't know what will. 

Ben

    Well, Canada seems to have the moral high ground to stand on at least.
    We shouldn't be too surprised at the European reaction, they don't
    worry too much about conservation and they don't have a good track
    record in resource management. They won't allow us to hunt our
    burgeoning population of harp seals though which should also be seized
    for overfishing in Canadian waters.

    Glenn

	The fishing limits used to be """3""" miles!!! That is until
	iceland fought the issue with the brits who were pulling
	the same stunt that the Spanards are doing to us.

	Now we have 200 miles limits...

	Charlie

	ps I say send in the stealth canoes, after all, we didn't
	spend good money on that high-tech fleet just to let it
	sit rotting in a warehouse!

    
     The following are proposals I put forward to end this dispute.
    
     1 - Jam the Spanish  fish finder frequencies
    
     2 - Stuff a few of these undersized turbot with that ink that smears
         all over the faces of robbers , then take aerial snapshots of the
         spectacle when they slice them open.
    
     3 - Mine the area just outside where we don't want any fishing,
         wherever that may be.
    
     4 - Snatch up all of the turbot ourselves, and sell it to the
         Spaniards at inflated profits.
    
     5 - Decide to hold Navy exercises in the area at frequent intervals.
         We might have to borrow some boats to make this appear realistic.
    
     6 - Change the location of the school to confuse the Spaniards.
         We'll claim turbot school must be in French immersion part of the
         day.
    
     7 - Ask the U.S. to come in and fish the same area, then the U.S. and
         the Spanish can fight it out. Less danger of damaging our fleet.
    
     8 - Send two subs alongside the Spanish trawler and literally squeeze
         the daylights out of them, before sinking them.
      
     .
     .
     .
     .
     .
    
     .... more ideas are welcome :-) .........
    
    
    Norm
     

    

    	I understand that Bob Raygun has installed some photo radar
    buoys over the bank in order for Ontario to reap some profits from the 
    EU boats speeding away from our Navy boats.



    	P.S. They found the missing net!

    <gufaw!>

    Well they released the ship yesterday. Only after finding a hidden
    cargo hold filled with a species of fish that is endangered (American
    something-or-another). So lets see what we have on the "poor honest
    fishermen just trying to scratch out a living".
    
    	1. Over catching quota
    	2. catching undersized fish
    	3. illegal nets
    	4. Dual log books to fool inspectors
    	5. hidden cargo of endangered species
    
     The hidden cargo hold is the topper for me. It makes it obvious that
    there was intentional wrong doing. I wonder how our "allies" in the EU
    will explain away that.
    
    							Derek.
    

    
    This 'STORY' is very illustrative of 'European' attitudes to world
    resources and who has the right to them in the first instance.
    If you leaf through the pages of any half-decent history book you will
    recognize a distinct pattern, i.e. the world is there for us to use
    and death to anything or anyone who opposes our rightful possesion
    of the aforementioned. It is not just the Spanish but the English, the
    Norwegians, Danish, Portuguese, French and Dutch who have behaved in
    this way through recent historical times.  In effect it is the 
    ignored and misunderstood continuation of Roman Imperialism.
    
    The only way to defend your inheritance in the short term is to 
    persue the course of the moment. Forget the 200 mile limit,protect
    the stocks. In the long term, in years to come, when fuel to power
    the factory ships is exhausted and the threat of overfishing has
    passed, devolve government to the level where small communities can
    act on their own behalf and in agreement with their neighbours.
    Don't be surprised, (IF you live long enough!), It does work.
    The terranean Basques and formally Miqmaq in your maritimes are
    ample examples.
    
    Keep up the pressure.
    
    (No allegiance to Queeny),
    
    Vincent.	

    Right you are.

    Heard on the news this AM that the recovered net had 50mm holes - 80mm
    LESS than allowed.
    
    Seems to me the Europeans (perhaps more specifically the Germans) had
    lots to say about "clear cutting" on our West Coast and threatened to
    stop buying Canadian pulp - I wonder why their not applauding Canada's
    action with respect to saving (what's left of) the fishery?
    
    And as I've mentioned at lunch to some of the folks in CTH, I'm really
    curious about the American position on this issue - I've not heard a
    word about the fish war on US news programs.
     

                     <<< Note 906.10 by KAOFS::D_STREET >>>
                        -< Can you say "red handed" ? >-

     >>(American something-or-another). 
    
    
    	American Plaice, for which there exists a moratorium, i.e. DON'T
    	TAKE ANY.
    
    Kip Alewife

    What's the deal with the area they were apprehended in?  It was the
    'nose' and 'tail' of the grand banks and the charts the Fisheries
    Minister (whose name escapes me momentarily) showed clearly had these
    areas outside the 200 mile limit.  Has Canada declared all teh Grand
    bank to be ours?
    
    Doug (No sympathy for the Spanish fishermen either)
    

    


    	After being told that Canada would be dropping paratroopers
    upon any ship found to be overfishing in the Banks, the EU ships have
    left the area.

    Canada hasn't claimed anything, just protecting the fish stocks and the
    sensitive breeding grounds on the nose and tail of the grand banks.

    I beleive we (that'll be Canada) did recently pass some legislation to
    legalize enforcing international fishing agreements outside the 200
    mike limit.  Of course, this is a unilateral declaration and is not
    being recognized by other nations.

    
    The area in dispute is outside of the territorial limit.  The Canadian
    case is based on the fish swimming back-and-forth out of the limit. 
    Clyde Wells says they have no intention of asserting a longer limit.
    
    I dunno, the kind of logic we are using is kind of dangerous. Does this
    mean Greenpeace can do what they want, where they want as look they
    have the high moral ground.  With guns?  That force is okay if you are
    'right'?
    
    I don't have much sympathy with the Spaniards, either, but we seem to
    be having a kind of mob emotional reaction.  I wonder what we would do
    if these were US fishing boats out there.   Think twice, I'll bet.
    
    Marshall
    
    

	re .15 (Brooks)

�    areas outside the 200 mile limit.  Has Canada declared all teh Grand
�    bank to be ours?

	No, not the Grand BANK, the Grand CANAL! ;-)

	re .19 (McRam)

�    I don't have much sympathy with the Spaniards, either, but we seem to
�    be having a kind of mob emotional reaction.  I wonder what we would do
�    if these were US fishing boats out there.   Think twice, I'll bet.
 
 	I am sure they thought twice about the action against the
	Spaniards and I would hope that we would do the same
	to US boats as well. Basically I don't call this mob reaction
	at all, but quite the opposite. I am actually quite impressed
	that the government has 'sailed forth', so to speak, on this
	issue without the requirement for the usual public mobbings
	of parliment hill.

	Charlie

    Americans are better at conservation nowadays, at least in the
    Atlantic. The Pacific? Well, that's a different story.

    If we can get what we seem to be after, i.e. serious policing to ensure
    that quotas are respected by everybody, then this little exercise in
    "gunboat diplomacy" may prove worthwhile.  So far it looks like our
    people have played it very well.
    
    But even if quotas are respected, the recent fiascoes on both coasts
    (cod & BC salmon) leave me with little confidence that anybody knows
    what they're doing when they set the quotas.
    
    So it may be a step forward, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the
    fish disappear even if quotas are respected.
    
    -Stephen

   This reply is being posted on behalf of a group of noter who wish to
    remain anonymous:
    re .19
    							"... Does this
    mean Greenpeace can do what they want, where they want as look they
    have the high moral ground.  With guns?  That force is okay if you are
    'right'?"
    
    Darn right!
    
    signed:			The Shadow 
    				The Lone Ranger
    				Batman
    
    re.:
    
    "I don't have much sympathy with the Spaniards, either,..."
    
    In the name of fairness, we though interesting to check what the
    Spaniard felt toward you. Here's a recap:
    
    Q: How much sympathy would you say you feel toward Marshall, Senor ?
    A: What Marshall, pray tell, Companeros ?
    Q: The Marshall from the Canada notefile, you know...
    A: Oh, this Marshall! ole! well....
    
    * no sympathy ever						10%	
    	(a grumpy Basque, don't pay attention to him, nobody does)
    * no sympathy most often					20%
    	(two Catalan guys that claim you stole their Girlfriends )
    * some sympathy some time					30%
    	(3 guys from Andalusia playing card games with the Catalan group above)
    * whol'lotta of sympathy					20%
    	(the bored Castillan Girlfriends of the Catalan guys above mentionned)
    * leave  me alone, I don't know any Marshall and will call the Guardia
      Civil if you keep on bothering me!			10%
    	(a Kim Basinger look-alike who did not really mean it)
    * I do not know Marshall, but I would not mind trying...	10%
    	(a burly agent from the Guardia Civil seeking mind expanding
         experiences and new friendship)	
    
    So, as a conclusion, I would say keep away from Barcelonna, but for the
    rest of Spain, they don't seem to have a problem with you.

    
    re-1. I'm underwhelmed.
    
    Uh, you don't happen to have a number or address for that Kim Bassinger
    look-like do you?  I could handle a little fake sympathy.  
    
    I'll just tell her I own a beeeeeggg trawler on the Grand Canal.
    
    
    A sympathetic Type of guy
    
    
    
    

    
    Note 906.19
    
    >I wonder what we would do
    >if these were US fishing boats out there.   Think twice, I'll bet.
    
    We *did* seize four American vessels last year...two for dragging
    Icelandic scallops in international waters, and two others for
    infractions *inside* our 200-mile limit (if I recall correctly).
    
    It's worth noting that the US doesn't generally recognize 200-mile
    limits, although they may treat Canada differently than China.
    
    The Americans backed down on the scallop thing, but I'll bet it left
    a bad taste in their mouth.  I wouldn't count on them for support in
    this dispute. 
    
    jc 
    

    CBC News showed RCMP or Dept. of Fisheries officers inspecting the
    recovered net.  They were laughing about how small the net was - way
    below "legal" limits.  The net was also lined with an even smaller net
    - the outside net looked like it was made from polypropelene braid
    while the inside net looked like it was made from single strand nylon.
    
    They also attempted to pull a small (size of your hand) fish through
    the net and said it couldn't have got out - didn't look like they tried
    too hard though!
    
    They will be doing tests on the severed cable to prove that the net is
    from the Spanish boat.
    
    On the negotiation front, Canada and the EU are talking, but Spain is
    still protesting.  Adjustments are being made in quotas.  My take is
    that despite the apparant illegality of Canada's action, the evidence
    agains the Spanish is mounting and the EU would like to "settle out of
    court" quietly.

    Gravy!

    Well.....time for a European perspective.....
    
    The EU of course would like to react towards Canada as one voice - one
    'trading block' against another, but to assume this represents all the
    EU nations as one voice or opinion is foolish.
    
    In Europe the Spanish are reknown for fishing where they please, but
    because of recent European legislation each EU memeber state has the same
    rights to fish - more or less - in any othe member state's waters.
    
    This hasn't gone down to well with us British - being a nation with an
    'island mentality' it hasn't been too easy to accept French or Spanish
    fishing vessels dropping nets off the coast of ol' Blighty - Armada and
    all that. 
    
    Hey the French Navy have been out, the British Navy have been out - all 
    posturing towards each other like they're going to do something, yeah right!
    
    The bottom line is that the fish stocks are diminishing, the
    competition for fish (certainly between European countries) has got
    tougher so they are 'casting their nets wider' (if somewhat smaller in
    size!!)     
    
    Legislation relating to the seas has always been difficult to agree as 
    everyone has a different view; it's difficult to enforce - most nations have
    fishermen who fish illegally; and it's highly political and nationalistic
    
    The solution is a shared intenational recognition that the fish supplies are
    a diminishing resource (someone tell the Japanese!) and that there needs
    to be world-wide regulations that are enforced, whether it be quotas,
    net size or definitions of what is international waters.
    
    Canada and Canadians are particular sensitive (and quite rightly so!)
    to the environment and natural resources.  Europeans aren't surprised
    when Canada acts accordingly.  The right or wrongs of taking of the 
    Spanish vessel is probably something Canadians dwell on more than the
    rest of us, this happens with regularity over here!
    
    CJ
     
    
           

    This is the perfect technology transfer.
    We should take these undersized nets into the Grand Canal and scoop
    out those zebra mussels.
    
    Think of the research funding grant we save from transfering.    
    Bet it would pay UI for at least 2 fishermen ( is that fisherpersons).
    Is the east coast PC yet?  
    Oh yeah they voted liberal.
    
    > The EU of course would like to react towards Canada as one voice - one
    > 'trading block' against another, but to assume this represents all the
    >    EU nations as one voice or opinion is foolish.
    
    this could also read in local politics....
    
     The BQ of course would like to react towards Canada as one voice - 
    one ' block' against another, but to assume this represents
    all the PQ [nations] as one voice or opinion is foolish.
    
    
    
          
    

    

    Read in the news today:

    	Seahook scandal. Grecian goddess caught with her nets down.

    News alert!
    
    Canadian Fisheries board Spanish fishing trawler, and find Kato asleep
    in the hold!
    
    Says Kato:  "I'm just staying with the Spaniards for a while, honest
    officer."
    
    Film at 11!

    To paraphrase THHTM
    	"Sometimes I think they're guilty, sometimes I think they had help"

    Latest.......NEWS FLASH......
    
    British fishermen lower the Ensign and hoist the Maple Leaf as a mark
    of solidarity against the illegal Spanish fishing.  British fishing
    Unions ask the British government why they don't take the same stand as
    the Canadian government in tackling illegal use of nets by the Spanish,
    saying the Canadian government at least has the courage to do so.
    
    Local Fisherman says we are forgetting our 'old allies' and standing by
    the Spanish, which is wrong.
    
    British diplomats indicate that they would veto any European trade
    sanctions against Canada, and encourage both parties to stop the
    aggressive war of words.
    
    Spanish send one of their Naval vessels (they have probably one more 
    ship than the Canadian Navy!) to protect 'their interests' across the
    Atlantic.
    
    Local Radio DJ says we like Canada more than Spain, and many of us have
    relatives over there in any case....
    
    Local MP reminds folks that we mustn't forget what a pain the Spanish
    are about Gibralter.
    
    C
    
    
    

If the Spanish treat the common fishing grounds  with as little respect as they
do their own country , then I'm not surprised that the Canadians have taken 
action.

I for one am 100% behind the Canadians on this one.

I can't remember what the Spanish done to fight Hitler in the second world war,
but we should not forget the 1,000's of Canadians who were lost.

K.R.

	As someone mentioned earlier, the zebra mussels in the Grand
	Canal were totally eradicated BECAUSE we let the Spanish
	fish in our fresh water railway. We no longer have minnows
	in there either, but I understand that he department of affairs,
	and other silly things, is looking at looking at the problem.

	Relwart H'Siniaps

	

    any body see the EU rep at the NY confrence. She basically said Canada
    fabricated the evidence against the Spanish, and even if it were true
    the info was obtained as a result of an illegal search, so it has to
    be ignored.
    
     Does she think she is dealing with the PRC who deal daily in
    international and internal misinformation ? When did Canada turn from
    being the "honest broker" in international affairs (like in
    peacekeeping) and leader for rights (like when we pushed for sanctions
    against South Africa) to an international bogeyman ? No complaints when
    we "policed" the North Atlanic in WWII. I suppose vested self interest
    has alot to do with it.
    
     I just hope that the world sees these attacks as the hollow self
    serving BS they really are. I also would like to state my personal
    appreciation for the support England is providing. The people lead the
    way, but the government seems to be following them. The paper today had
    a heartwarming story about the number of Canadian Flags being flown in
    support of our position, and some strong statements from politicians.
    Although I appreciate the Canada is nicer than Spain sentiments, it is
    really a matter of logic, not emotions. If we let them continue, there
    will be no more fish. It will be small consolation after they are gone
    for the world to say "you were right".
    
    							Derek.
    

    >> any body see the EU rep at the NY conference. She basically said
    >> Canada fabricated the evidence against the Spanish, ...
    
    What you have to realize is that these EU people are only 2nd-rate
    bureaucrats trying to appear significant... probably political appointees
    who haven't realized they weren't put there because they have some
    innate [sp?] worth.
    
    The Canadian government is wise not to bother getting into a shouting
    match with them.  Let's hope the << REAL >> governments of Europe are
    taking a more rational look at the problem.

    Come on guys, don't be shy: tell us what you really think about the
    harassment campaign inflicted by the Canadian Government upon innocent 
    Spanish fishermen. Is it mean or what ? Can you believe that ?
    Tell us really, come on...

    LEMAN::DZIALOWSKI
    
    >>Come on guys, don't be shy: tell us what you really think about the
    >>harassment campaign inflicted by the Canadian Government upon innocent
    >>Spanish fishermen.
    
     If there were such a thing as an "innocent" Spanish fisherman, I would
    feel bad.
    
    							Derek.

>    When did Canada turn from
>    being the "honest broker" in international affairs (like in
>    peacekeeping) and leader for rights (like when we pushed for sanctions
>    against South Africa) to an international bogeyman ?
    
    When they stood up for something she didn't agree with.
    
    -MarkD