Conference kaosws::canada

    There's a note somewhere in here on the disgraceful behaviour of some
    Canadian Airborne Regiment soldiers in Somalia.  It has been widely 
    reported in the media.  
    
    The attitudes of these guys are not typical of Canadians.
    
    -Stephen  
    
     

Sunil,

Don't judge a country and it's people by what you may have seen from a *home*
video.

I think there is still one more court martial to go through about the Somalia
affair and then we're scheduled to have in inquiry about what happened there.

/Mario

    Hi,
    
    The Canadian Airborne regiment is partly based in Petawawa, Ontario.
    These soldiers are highly skilled in weaponary/combat & are trained
    to kill. They take their "soldering" very seriously & have been
    reported to harbour racists, Rambo & neo-nazis types. I'm sure most of
    all  the soldiers are NOT of racist inclination, probably just a few
    bad apples which are in the process of being weeded out. The commander of
    the regiment Colonel Carol Mathieu has been(since this incident)
    demoted & replaced & a general sweeping is in motion at this time.
    
    The Canadian Peace Keepers have always enjoyed a strong respect
    & reputation throughout the world. It's a  damn shame this incident
    caused by a small band of a$$holes would diminish their accomplisments.
     
    As for the people? We're generally too quite a nice bunch.   
    
    The media has squeezed every ounce out of this story including publishing
    repulsive pictures of the beatings of a 16 year old African boy.
    It's given the Armed Forces a big-black eye. Nobody has any clear idea
    of what this 16 year old boy was doing on the compound in the first
    place.  
     
    The question would rather be, why do you send a group of soldiers
    that are trained to kill into a peace keeping mission?  
    
                                            Regards J.P.
    
    
                                         
    
    
     
    
    The 

    Hi All,

    Seem fair enough to me that most of you have expressed your disgust at
    what has happened and not tried to justify anything, it's refreshing to
    hear such a clear message.
    
    >The question would rather be, why do you send a group of soldiers
    >that are trained to kill into a peace keeping mission?  
    
    But this could be said of any armed force through out the world.  I
    feel a good soldier knows what is right and what is wrong, the
    soldier's role is to defend and not to kill or be killers.  It's a
    shame that so called soldiers who took part in this cowedly act are
    known as soldiers, they are just trained thugs and no more then that.
    As I have stated a real soldier would not take part in such a
    cowedly act.
    
    Regards,
    
    Sunil

    
    Although, the soldiers in question went too far, it would be fair
    to note that the unit in question (and others I'm sure) were dealing 
    with constant infiltration of their camp by theives, whom they would
    catch and turn over to the local authorities. The local authorities
    would just as quickly release them again to commit more offences. Just
    imagine this 16 year old with a C-7 automatic rifle and boxes of
    ammunition, or grenades etc. All the youths would have to do would
    be to knife a sentry, where would the outcry be then? Just another
    dead soldier. Where do I get my info? A cousin of mine is in the
    airborne and was there. Not in that particular group though. Standing
    between two warring factions in a peackeeping mission is an extremely
    stressful situation to be in, one which would provoke many different
    responses in as many different trained people.
    
    FWIW
    Pat

    GIDDAY::SETHI
    
    " Trained killers as peacekeepers"
    
     saw something on the news last night about this. It turns out that the
    Air Borne get much "brutish" training to make them such good killers.
    Some of this training takes place in the States, and it was the
    contention on the show last night that they are,in the process "taught
    to hate". (ie it is easier to gouge someone stomach out with a fork if
    you think you hate your opponent) These people are completely
    inappropriate to be used as peace keepers, as are the American forces
    that were sent over, as they are not trained for the job, and it's no
    where near as "easy as it looks". The natural reaction of a combat
    soldier is going to be a real problem in a peacekeeping mission. Let's
    take petty theft as an example......
    
    							Derek.

    
    I think you guys are missing the point. The *only* people that should be
    in peacekeeping, between two armies with heavy weapons, are trained combat
    troops.  Do you think civilian police know anything about landmines,
    fire zones, op's, and the rest?  Do you think they could get themselves
    out of trouble when faced with paratroop types on the other side?
    
    Soldiers are trained to kill.  That's what they do.  Their skill at
    that, plus seriously working at being impartial, are the only things that 
    keep them from getting involved in the war they are "stopping".
    
    Paratroops are traditionally the best, toughest troops in any army.
    (With the exception of very small special forces). 
    They attract the cockiest, most aggressive, soldiers.  They tend to have
    a lot of discipline problems in most armies, bar fights, etc.
    The red barret comes with an attitude.
    
    They have to held under a tight state of control, and used carefully.  
    This is where the Airborne seem to have fallen down.  This was *not* a 
    traditional peacekeeping operation, and just about the worst place to 
    employ these guys. Not to mention the Americans, who have a far too 
    black-white view of the world. Impartial's not their style.  
    
    The Americans have learned, though, that 
    this kind of racism can't be tolerated for a minute.  Even if they all just 
    sat in their barracks.  The unit won't work as properly as a team.
    Besides being repugant to almost all of us.
    
    The issue here is discipline.  
    
    I kind of wish, though, that the media
    wouldn't take so much glee in trashing the rest of the forces (by
    inference), and Canada in front of the whole world.  Those guys in Bosnia 
    don't deserve this. 
    
    Marshall
      
      

    The answere is much simpler - we (Canada) simply should not be in
    Bosnia, Samolia ar any other place.  Peacekeeping is a quaint relic of
    the past decades.  While we might have been good at it at one time, it
    ain't so anymore, mostly, in my opinion, because the desire for peace
    isn't there any more.  You can't impose peace - the participants have
    to want to it and there hase to be a political structure to assume
    responsibility at some point.
    
    If I could wave a magic wand, I'd yank ALL our troops home and get out
    of the business!  Yes, I'm serious, so don't even bother with the
    liberal, teary-eyed, what about the innocents, arguements......

  FALSISM'S IN THIS NOTE:
  
    Good soldiers don't kill, they defend
    Sending the Airborne to the US for extra training puts any blame onto 
    the American's; we sent them there voluntarily to enhance their 
    fighting skills - that's what soldiers do - fight.
    
  FACTS IN THIS STRING:
  
    The video, and events surrounding it, portray an extreme element of a 
    small segment of Canadian society and people and does not at all 
    represent the norm.
    Airborne troops should not have been sent to do a Peace-keeper's job, 
    or if they were, should've received some training/command to prepare 
    them to act accordingly.
    I would rather have these guys defending our country than people lesser 
    trained.  I want pumped up, highly trained 'Rambo's' defending this 
    country.  
    All Canadian troops have been sullied by the few Airborne clowns for 
    years to come.
    
  Doug

    Let's be a little more precise about Canadian Peacekeeping in Somalia
    and the Airborne Regiment.
    
    One should not tar the entire regiment with the brush of racism for one
    unit's actions.  The unit that has been, and still is, of some concern
    and under current scrutiny is 2 Commando, the unit to which Clayton 
    Matchee and Kyle Brown were attached.  This is the same unit that has
    been accused of containing some neo-nazis.
    
    Also, 2 Commando weren't send in for peacekeeping purposes.  They were
    there to secure the Canadian compound at Belet Huen - guard duty.
    
    Some of them have also been sent to Rwanda for the same purpose -
    security and guard duty.  While in Rwanda, there was a recent incident
    of drunken brawling with members of 2 Commando.
    
    The hue and cry from other countries that may have occurred concerning
    this situation in Somalia reminds me of the doping scandal at the Seoul
    Olympics.  Canada got a bad name, Canada wasn't the only country that
    had athletes using dope.  Canada now has the toughest anti-doping 
    regulations which are vigorously enforced.  Other countries are now 
    starting to clean up their act (re: China).
    
    Let he who is free from...blah, blah, blah.
    
    
    Pat (SET/SOAPBOX=OFF)

    TROOA::BROOKS
    
    >>Sending the Airborne to the US for extra training puts any blame onto
    >>the American's;
    
     Not at all, I;m just pointing out that the "training" they recieved
    in the States included the concept of hate. (as per the high ranking
    officer in the news show). Not exactly the qualifications of a
    peacekeeper. Yes we sent them there, yes we take responsibility for
    what they learned. Should we not acknowledge this to prevent repeats ?
    
     You get what you manage for. If you want the soldiers to learn to kill
    without concern for the other guy, that's what you get. Uncaring
    killers (real handy in a war I might add). Then to turn around and ask
    them to treat people who they view as the enemy (camp infiltrators)
    with kindness and compasion you should not be surprised when they treat
    them like an enemy (after all this is what their training was about)
    along with the normal de-humanizing that allows the soldier to do their
    job.
    
     As an aside, "peace-making" is crap. If they want peace, lets go, if
    they want war, let 'em go.
    
    							Derek.

	This topic certainly does have some lively discussion in it. As a 
	member of the Canadian Armed Forces Reserve, perhaps I can provide
	a slightly different point of view.

	Re: Airborne should not be sent as peacekeepers

	Currently all major Canadian peacekeeping missions are mainly manned
	with combat arms troops, ie infantry, armor, artillery or combat 
	engineers. The Airborne regiment is made up of all 4 skill types, with
	the majority being infantry troops. The regiment is a volunteer
	organization made up of troops from the other combat arms regiments
	in Canada, with the exception that these guys jumped out of planes
	or helicopters (crazy if you ask me). All combat arms troops are
	taught to "close with and destroy the enemy" ie kill. Peacekeeping
	(peacemaking) is all about not killing, but rather trying to keep 
	two (or three) sides from not killing each other. This skill is
	extremely difficult to learn, it requires patience, impartiality
	and courage. Marshall is right that the best people to put into	
	peackeeping situations is soldiers, since they are the only people
	trained for a combat (war) situation. 

	As for Airborne troops, they certainly are trained well and the
	motivation is extremely high. They do have troops that are rascist 
	and bigots, which is not surprising since you have people like that
	everywhere else in society. The problem is one of screening for 
	attitudes and command discipline. Certainly, the control of that 
	regiment was not adequate and that was on trial in the court martials.
	Interesting that Mathieu beat the charges. I am interested to see 
	what the national inquiry is going to focus on. The regiment has gone
	thru a change of leadership and every unit reflects their commander, 
	so it should be interesting to see how they perform on the next
	peacekeeping mission.

	Lastly, since Canada wants to maintain a peacekeeping presence in the 
	world and we only have a limited number of combat troops, units are
	recycled in the peacekeeping missions every six months. This is why
	the Airborne regiment is once again on a peacekeeping mission. They
	will be under close media scrutiny and I am sure the top brass will 
	keep a tight rein on the regiment.

	Susan

    
    One more thing to keep in mind, for every Somalia there are several
    peacekeeping missions going on that are a sucess.
    
    Does anyone have a list?  I think we have folks in at least a dozen
    spots that you don't hear about because they 'work'.
    
    I think they are still between the Isreali's and the other guys, for
    instance.  This operation alone is worth it.  We did almost 30 years in
    Cyprus keeping a real peace.  The problem right now is that we are
    overextended, and using little judgement, just yelling "we have to be
    everywhere there's a blue beret.  Me too!".
    
    I've seen a few meetings around this office that could use them...
    (Those big APC's take up all the best parking spots though.)
    
    Marshall

	Re: -1

	We currently have troops involved in UN peacekeeping missions in
	the following:

		UNTSO - observers at HQ in the middle east
		UNDOF - peacekeepers in the middle east
		UNMOGIP - observers between India and Pakistan
		UNFICYP - a regiment in Cyprus on rotation
		UNIFIL - observers in Lebanon
		UNIIMOG - observers between Iran and Iraq
		UNAVEM - observers on Angola verification mission
		ONUCA - observers in Central America
		UNIKOM - observers in Iraq Kuwait mission
		MINURSO - observers in Western Sahara
		UNTAG - observers in Namibia

	plus
		Bosnia - a regiment of combat troops
		Croatia - a regiment of engineer/ HQ staff
		Rwanda - security forces
		Korea - observers
		Afganistan - engineers

	There have been many missions in the past that actually came to an
	end, these include:

		UNEF I and UNEF II - in the middle east
		ONUC - in the Congo
		UNTEA/UNSF - in West Irian (Papua New Guinea island)
		UNYOM - in Yemen
		DOMREP - in Dominican Republic
		Somilia - security forces
	

	As you can see, Canadian soldiers are very busy, note there are
	only about 10,000 to 12,000 combat troops, so they are recycled 
	to other UN peacekeeping missions. Of great help is our recall of
	all troops based in Europe, we did maintain a brigade group there
	until about 1992.

	I personally have been asked if I wanted to go on UN missions, 
	especially in the last 4 years, since reservists are frequently
	used now with the regular forces. It is very tough to leave your
	full time job for 8 months to a year in order to perform military
	service. Mostly reservists who volunteer for UN duty are young, just 
	out of high school and usually out of work. 



	On an aside, heard more news about the Airborne regiment and the
	new initiation video. This was 2 years ago, but they do need a review
	to ensure that kind of behavior is not tolerated nor present in 
	the troops.

    re:more video antics...
    
    Yup, disgusting initiation type stuff, more in place on campuses across
    the continent than in military I thought.  Stuff like eating used t.p.,
    etc.  
    
    Bad timing.  Although not nearly as bid a deal as it would've been had
    it come up two years ago, or in any other organized society.  What do
    those Masons do anyways ?  :^)
	
    Doug

    I heard the following last night on CBC radio (6PM news).
    
    The units involved in the Airborne Regiment were:
    
    	1 Commando - initiation video
    	2 Commando - Somalia incident
    	3 Commando - Rwanda incident
    
    General John de Chastelaine, Chief of the Defence Staff has been
    requested by the Minister of National Defence, Mr. Collenet [sic] to
    appear in the Minister's office on Monday with an explanation of the
    events recorded on the video.  Both Collenet and the Prime Minister
    have said that they do not rule out the dis-banding of the
    Airborne Regiment.
    
    IMHO, if the type of hazing that was recorded on the video is typical
    of the initiation rites within the Armed Forces, then get rid of the
    Forces.  What do these people do once they leave the Forces and re-enter
    society?
    
    Pat

    
    I think they work in field service.
    
    
    Only joking....
    

	I find it hard to believe that this initiation bru-haha is
	getting so much attention (well not really, it is just the
	latest tidbit for the media to blow out of proportion, do
	they not have anything better to do with their lives)

	I have seen/heard of initiation rights just as gruesome
	in football camps and college campuses. Not saying I agree
	with it, but let's get a reality check here, this is a bunch
	of kids who play very hard (harder than any football training
	camp) and whether it be palatable or not to the living room/
	armchair populace watching television, is really a non-issue
	as far as I am concerned.

	If recruits are complaining of degradation, then fine, but if it
	is simply a childish macho thing that the recruits accept, then
	so be it!

	Let us focus instead upon the torture displayed earlier in this
	saga and question why a Private takes the punishment for deeds
	that should be the direct responsibitity of the Commanding Officer!!!

	Charlie

    
    I think we should focus on the news media that appears to print/show
    *anything*, as the first item, or the first page.
    They don't show graphic photos of local murder victims, but it's okay
    for these national Number #1 stories?   Don't they have any decency?
    
    Keep going, and this is how the world will know us.  Really sad.
    
    
    
    
    
      

    Re: .16
    
>    IMHO, if the type of hazing that was recorded on the video is typical
>    of the initiation rites within the Armed Forces, then get rid of the
>    Forces.  What do these people do once they leave the Forces and re-enter
>    society?
    

	This is not typical of the Canadian Forces. I know of no other unit
	that has initiation rites of any kind. The Airborne do conduct an
	Airborne Indoctrination Course of approx 3 weeks in duration, however
	I have attended the "official" graduation parties and there was none
	of the stuff described in the video. Mind you that was in the early
	80's so I can't speak for what happened since. As I have said, this
	behavior is not tolerated by the majority of members of the Forces and 
	it would seem there is a severe command discipline problem in the
	Airborne regiment. 

	I think that you will find retired Forces people are throughout society
	and yes some may be bad, but the majority are just normal people.

	Susan

    Susan,
    
    	You must have been fairly sheltered I know MANY people in the
    forces and all but those that went through ROTC went through some
    kind of hazing. In addition the amount of "rough play" increases the 
    further away from the office you get. By this I mean that the behavior
    that is acceptable in the infantry is not acceptable in the HQ staff.
    
    Brian V

    
    
    The video is already between 2 to 3 years old. There already has
    been a DND investigation on this 2 years ago & the people involved
    we're reprimanded. Besides, this has been going in society for millions
    of years. Imagine some of the initiations medical students must
    endure for fear of being labeled as "not a Team PLayer".
    
    I'm certainly not condoning eating feces & drinking hot internal
    fluids as a valid means of graduating to the next plane of existence,
    but I'm sure the vast majority of the forces are not into this kinda crap,
    c'mon. The media types must think the canadian public is completely stupid.
    
    LLoyd Robertson of CTV came on the air making it sound like this
    happened yesterday as he talked about the painful process we must
    now undertake to cleanses ourselves of our sins as a society.
    What absolute Bull$hit!!.
    
    Most of the people in the video are no longer in the Airborne or in
    the forces for that matter.
    
    Why don't we all get together & haze the media. They most certainly
    deserve a good kick in the rectum for making a lot of good soldiers
    look bad as well as an entire country.
    
    The Canadian media has lost all credibility & is in the process of
    transforming itself into a grand "National Enquirer" along with the
    likes of so called journalists like Scott Taylor of "Esprit de Corps"
    & Greg Weston of the Ottawa Citizen. I'm saddened that an old veteran
    like LLoyd would come on board so strongly on such a premeditated
    & fabricated story. But maybe he was just doing his job, he's
    participating in a hazing ritual which has been directed at our
    armed forces for quite some time now.
    
    
                                                 Regards J.P.
     
                                                            

    That Somali kid was tortured to death by Airborne troops.  I'm not
    convinced that the military is willing or able to clean up its mess in
    this situation.  Yes, they claim "it's all in the past" and say they
    want to put all this behind them, naturally, but I think an external
    inquiry is appropriate.
    
    The media are being fed these video tapes; it would be interesting to
    have some information on the motives of the people leaking them.
    
    -Stephen
    

    
    The motive for leaking the tapes was to show that Kyle Brown was a 
    scapegoat, and that the Airborne wasn't properly supported in Somalia.
    In other words the command, and not the soldiers that were at really at
    fault.
    
    The media didn't spend much time on the tape parts that supposedly 
    showed these points.  The rest of the stuff completely overshadowed it.
    
    If I was the leaker I would be very concerned about my safety.  A *lot*
    of peoples careers just went down the tubes, and these are not real
    laidback people.  
    
    I think they will disband the Airborne.  We don't actually don't have the 
    capability to put down a serious wartime, airborne landing 
    (lack of Hercules, aircover, and numbers).  Why we have three
    battalions now I'll never know.    
    
    Marshall
    
    

    "That Somali kid was tortured to death by Airborne troops.  I'm not
    convinced that the military is willing or able to clean up its mess in
    this situation.  Yes, they claim "it's all in the past" and say they
    want to put all this behind them, naturally, but I think an external
    inquiry is appropriate."
    
    Why don't we say the Somali kid was a victim of the media, and leave it
    at that ? ...Just good old time hazing... Certainly not the responsibility 
    of anybody related to the Airborne... an external inquiry is not 
    appropriate: how could lowly citizens/taxpayer understand the ideal of
    these Airborne supermen... the media would call Waffen SS sadistic killers..
    ...what do they know about military honour and tradition... it took a
    lot of gut to win the battle of Auschwitz...  

    The "leaker" has been quite public, he is the editor of a magazine
    called _Esprit'd Corp_ (spelling?) and his stated motive is to
    demonstrate that there is a general failure of command in the
    Airborne's. I would think it was probably quite easy to come by the
    tapes since as many as 200 dups were made of each.

    
>    	You must have been fairly sheltered I know MANY people in the
>    forces and all but those that went through ROTC went through some
>    kind of hazing. In addition the amount of "rough play" increases the 
>    further away from the office you get. By this I mean that the behavior
>    that is acceptable in the infantry is not acceptable in the HQ staff.
    
>    Brian V


	If you check my note, I did not say that hazing did not exist, rather
	that initiation rites are not common in the Forces. Certainly, when I
	was a young recruit, the amount of physical and mental pressure were
	severe, but nobody made me eat shit or any other the other shenanigans
	seen in the video. ROTC is American. What kind of hazing did they go
	thru, anything like the video, please clarify. 

	As for the fairly sheltered and HQ staff, I am currently in an Armoured
	Tank unit and am detailed as a Warrant Officer in charge of war plans.
	My past jobs have included tank driver, gunner, truck driver, clerk,
	recruit instructor, communicator and supply. Wanted to be a tank crew
	commander, but could no longer pass the medical, so I settled for 
	Operations.

	And remember, most HQ staff is still combat arms.

	Susan
	

    
    
     Heard defence minister Colenette disbanded the Airborne yesterday.
     Bet a few walls got punched at CFB Petawawa last night.

    can you say "cover-up" ?
    
    That's it - get rid of them and all your problems go away. 
    
    Terry

    
    Susan
    
>    	You must have been fairly sheltered I know MANY people in the
>    forces and all but those that went through ROTC went through some
                   ^^^^^^
>    kind of hazing. In addition the amount of "rough play" increases the 
>    further away from the office you get. By this I mean that the behavior
>    that is acceptable in the infantry is not acceptable in the HQ staff.
    

    I agree that initiation rites are unussual but hazing although not
    as structured is/can be just as crude. ROTC (royal officers training
    core) last I heard was still offered in Canada. This can be either
    through the university in Kingston or through civilian universities
    with the promise to serve afterward.
    
    Brian V
    
    Ps the physical and mental punishment during training is not hazing
       that is just training. By hazing I'm refering to the little
       impromptu things that happen at 2am in the barricks usually
       initiated by the junior NCO's. (totally off the record and
       unapproved)
    
                   

    >>ROTC (royal officers training core)
    
    I believe at one time there were three plans, this was before
    Integration:
    ROTP (Regular Officers Training Plan) was essentially RCAF oriented.
    UNTD (University Naval Training D?)   "       "       RCN    "
    COTC? (Commissioned Officers Training C?)     "       Army   "
    
    Susan,
    
    I used to do nuclear testing with the Leopard, both cast-turret and
    spaced-armour.  One individual who was a real character but an
    excellent mechanic was Corporal Boris (Bud) Olenikow.  Without him,
    some of our experiments would have been rather boring.
    
    We did most of our work at Aberdeen Proving Ground outside Baltimore,
    Maryland.
    
    Does any of this ring a bell?
    
    Pat (former nuclear radiation dosimetrist with the Defence Research
    Establishment Ottawa [DREO])

    
    Just curious, do our Leopards have spaced armour, or cast?
    
    I take it reactive was out of the question.  (Although there may be
    reactions to this rathole!)
    
    Marshall

>    as structured is/can be just as crude. ROTC (royal officers training
>    core) last I heard was still offered in Canada. This can be either
>    through the university in Kingston or through civilian universities
>    with the promise to serve afterward.

	See note .31, that is almost correct. It is called ROTP, Regular
	Officer Training Plan. There is also a RETP, Reserve Entry Training
	Plan. ROTC currently is an American term. You may be correct in a
	term used more than 30 years ago.    


>    Ps the physical and mental punishment during training is not hazing
>       that is just training. By hazing I'm refering to the little
>       impromptu things that happen at 2am in the barricks usually
>       initiated by the junior NCO's. (totally off the record and
>       unapproved)
 
	So am I. When I did my recruit training, physical punishment was
	deemed acceptable although not legal, ie turned a blind eye. And 2am
	parties in the showers were not unknown. That does not mean that the
	hazing was degrading and disgusting as the Airborne video. I never
	crawled around on my hands and knees, eating shit. Mind you, my 
	university freshman initiation rites had me running thru the manure
	pile. That was pretty gross.
	

	Susan

	Re: .32

	The last time I saw a Leopard was 1981 in Petawawa with the RCDs. 
	Sorry I am not trained on them, rather the Cougar AVGP. Reserves
	don't get to play with the "real" tanks. Now that our troops are
	back from Germany, the Leopards are in Gagetown, I beleive, but 
	they are pretty old now. We tried to buy Leopard 2 a couple of years
	back but the government stopped that due to costs. I would not be
	suprised if all tank regiments go to Cougars. The RCD and 12 RBC are
	on Cougars. I think only the 8th Hussars are on the Leopards.

	As for the armour, I think that it is cast. Certainly looked that way,
	I did think the Leopard 2 were supposed to have reactive armour, but 
	I am not sure. Have to check with Janes.

	Re: .31

	Sorry I don't know him but I am interested to hear about DREA 
	establishments and the work you did there, maybe we need a new note.
	

	As for the original topic, the Airborne will be disbanded and the
	troops sent back to their home units. The government did indicate that
	an Airborne capability would be maintained by having probably a company
	in each regiment be Airborne. Periodically the Airborne companies will
	get together to train, presumably separate from their "leg" companies.
	Does this address the command and control issue? I'm not sure but they
	will be under media watch.

	Susan

    Interesting that disbanding the Airborne will solve Collinet's
    problems.
     If I understand correctly, these Airborne members will simply be sent
    to various units around the country, so the problem with a$$holes in
    our military will be dispersed instead of in one unit. Yup, works for
    me. 
    
    
    I am currently in england doing some work, and it appears the Duke of
    York (Prince Andrew) is somewhat upset we colonials didn't consult him
    before the Airborne was disbanded. He is the honorary commander. Their
    was quite an extensive article in the Daily Telegram here on the
    Airborne and their problems. It showed the picture of Matchee (sp?)
    with his prisoner and also showed a picture of the initiation rights - 
    a black being paraded around like a dog.
    
    Terry
    

    I thought that I would add a few words of explanation regarding the
    Leopard 1s that Canada currently owns.  I'm currently a Lieutenant
    Colonel in the reserves (Armoured Corps).
    
    The Leopard 1 has cast armour as was the norm in the mid-70s when we
    bought them.  We can, and do, add "reactive armour" to the Leopards
    and, indeed, the Cougars currently doing duty in the former Yugoslavia. 
    Reactive armour is simply boxes of explosive hung on the side of the
    armour plate to dissapate the effects of chemical energy anti-tank
    weapons (ones that explode rather than solid rounds that penetrate).
    
    Spaced or ceramic armour (sometimes called Chobham because the Brits
    invented it there) is the bulky looking armour that you see on tanks
    like the Abrams, Merkava, Challenger, and Leopard 2.  It is desiged to
    again dissapate chemical energy as well as providing bulk against
    kinetic energy rounds (solid shot).
    
    I know this is a bit of a rathole but I wanted to try to clarify that
    you can hang reactive armour on virtually any armoured vehicle that can
    handle the extra weight.  It is especially useful against handheld
    anti-tank rockets.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tom.

    What about that peace-keeping mission in Bosnia ?
    Does not that make one feel proud of belonging and contributing to the
    United Nations ?
    If it was not for the UN peace-keeping effort, don't you think there
    could be a war there ?
    -- just kidding, so to say...--
    By the way, if one group aggress/attack an other, is peace-keeping really 
    what is called for ? Or should it rather be solidarity and support for
    the victim against the aggressor ?
    Was it peace-keeping that was missing when Hitler invaded, Austria,
    then Tchecoslovakia, then Poland ?
    Was a peace-keeping force needed in Auschwitz ?
    When the situation is a blatant aggression, an executioner-victim
    situation, are we still talking peace-keeping ?

    I certianly don't have any pat answers as to where to go from here but
    I for one feel a measure of pride over the fact that we've  had a hand
    in saving the lives of thousands of innocent civilians. As sloppy and
    ineffective as the effort has been in military terms its clear the only
    other choices lead to all out war. It will only be in hindsight that we
    know if it has all been for naught.

    Are we talking about the same thing ? The current situation in Bosnia.
    Where did you get the idea that any innocent civilian live (not to talk of
    thousand of them) there has been saved by the UN mission ?
    Civilians there are getting killed , day after day, same for the
    so-called "peace-keepers": their activity was to remain sitted on their
    thumbs until they became hostages of Karadic's minions. I feel sorry
    for them, and even more sorry for the thousands of innocent civilians
    who paid this inaction with their lives.