Conference kaosws::canada

I should also mention that I'm a freelancer, so I'm not just restricting the
choice to Digital sites.

ciao

Wonko

    Personally, I think Ottawa is one of the best places to live in Eastern
    Canada. You can enjoy Quebec, the big city environment of Ottawa/Hull,
    the country side and the lack of congestion that the Toronto area is
    plagued with. Oh, and you can skate on the Grand Canal.

    Glenn

As far as high tech industry goes there's plenty of it in the Ottawa area.
sounds like a logical choice.

Ben

 .0
 >> Ottawa, probably on the Quebec side, because of the European life-style.
    
    Please check out the Language laws in Quebec. Your children may not be
    able to study in English school.
    
 >> to know where the best (that means most highly populated)
     place for high tech.
    
    Basically most metro areas. What field are you in?
    
    David 

>>probably on the Quebec side, because of the European life-style.
    
    That lifestyle doesn't exist.  In parts of Montr�al and Ottawa it
    exists, but not around Hull, Aylmer, and Gatineau.

    Got to agree with Glenn.
    The Ottawa/Hull area is a nice place to bring up the family.
    
    I'm an anglophone living on the Quebec side of the river.
    If neither you nor wife speak french *AND* your kids are beyond
    grade 3...I wouldn't recommend putting them into the french school
    system.  You won't have a choice either coming in from outside the
    province. Unless one parent was educated in the province in English,
    french it is. Least lasted I checked the law.
     If your kids are to be placed into the lower grades, they
    can get additional tutoring (for free instead of english classes).
    
    European life-style...I dunno what that means. Is living on the Quebec
    side different than the Ontario side of the river? Yep!!
    Which is better???
    Oh boy..let start another separation topic :)
    
    richard                   

Thanks to all for the quick replies.

Re. .4  - what field am I in?

I'm a Software Engineer - CV (Resum�) available on request ;^)

Re. .5: - European lifestyle

Yeah, I fell into the same trap that I can't abide in others. i.e. Like the 
US traveller crossing the border into Canada and loudly inquiring "Where's the
snow??" 
I shouldn't really expect a river or provincial boundary to make such a
difference in culture. 
However, as a lover of wines, I hope that the regulations governing the sale of
liquor, are more relaxed on the Quebec side than the horrendously restrictive
monopoly exercised by the OLLB.

Re. .4, .5, & .6  - French Language in school etc

We don't speak French well, but have no objection to learning. My wife spent
about six years of her childhood in Ladysmith, Quebec, which is an english
speaking community and was, therefore, educated in Quebec in English. But that
was some time ago.

all the best

Peter

    Although things are still not exactly laissez-faire with regard to the
    LCBO, you will be suprised at how much better things are now than they
    were a few years ago. 
    
    Canadian wineries can run their own standalone stores, opening hours
    are much better. (I'm not sure 'cause I haven't needed it recently but 
    I think the Cooper Street LCBO in Toronto is even open Sundays). 
    
    Although there are many downsides to the LCBO monopoly there are some
    upsides because of it's sheer size, the LCBO is the world's largest
    single wine purchaser. Prices are not that bad on vintage product (I
    recently bought some California wines in the LCBO that were cheaper
    than buying them at the Lucky in Napa) although they remain somewhat
    inflated at the lower end. LCBO runs a service called Vintages, that
    operates boutiques in some of their locations also does mail order
    catalogs. 

    
    Re -.1
    
    Mike Harris in the Ontario legislature has proposed privatization of
    liquor sales in the province. There are radio adverts on right now
    by the employees unions stating that since Alberta privatized this
    has been nothing but disaster. Stay tuned for more. As far as Ontario
    goes, I'll believe it when I see it, this province is far too uptight
    to let go the liquor leash.
    
    Pat

    So, what's the disaster in Alberta? Do most of the bottles get broken or
    what? Humph, Albertans, they love to wine.

    Glenn

    I heard it was pricing.  Somewhere in the area of 20-30% more.
    
    The story states that the ALCB got out of retailing only and
    still acts as the sole distributor in the province to retailers.
    Apparently the ALCB that formally sold a bottle of whiskey for
    $20 to the end user now sells the same bottle at the same $20
    price to the retailer who has to add his/her markup making the
    end cost now in the $24-$26 range.
    
    Any Albertans care to comment?  Is the above rumour told to me
    by an LCBO employee true?
    
    
    Robin

    re. .0
    Have you though of settling in Sarnia ? For complete information, check
    53.*

    As comprehensive as 53.* is you just can't convey Sarnia completely in
    this cold electronic media. No matter how I try a Bunsen Burner
    breakfast just gets the keys gooey and wont go into the notes.

    
    
    	re the LCBO - I heard* that it exists primarily to protect
    Ontario's wine industry.  Other provinces don't have to consider
    this and therefore privatization has gone forth.....
    
    (*from a radio interview with a employee union spokesperson, extoling
    the virtues of the LCBO)

    Once upon a time that was partly true but in the modern GATT/NAFTA
    context no longer so. It exists, and is run by the government because
    it's one of the few things they do that make money on it's own accord. 
    
    Niagra no longer needs, nor does it get the kind of government support
    that was there in the late 70's. The farmers wisely invested their
    money in planting quality french vinefera vines and we now have an 
    industry that stands on it's own, desparately needed in an area where 
    the 'traditional' industrial employment has dried up. 

    re.-1
                                                      " ... we now have an 
    industry that stands on it's own, desparately needed in an area where 
    the 'traditional' industrial employment has dried up"
    
    It is not fair to the unemployed.
    They are having enough hard luck. 
    Why inflict Ontario wine upon them? 

    OK I was asking for that. Of course I meant that the wine industry is
    employing people not that the unemployed were turning to drink.
    
    Plonk is plonk French, Califonian or Canadian, all wine regions create
    more than their fair share of it. In the last decade the quality of
    Niagra wine being made by the small producers has developed to be world
    class, especially in the aperitif and dessert wine field. 

    
    Your wording was fine.  
    
    Ontario has a government LCBO because originally they wanted to keep
    tight control of all liquor sales in a 'puritan' atmosphere.
    
    That reason faded years ago. Now it is huge monopoly money machine.
    I don't think Ontario wines make up more than a very small share of the
    total.  They pump them, but it's a sidelight.  They can't compete with
    a Gallo or B & G for mass-market volume.   It's a niche market.
    
      
    Marshall
    Marshall
    
    
     

    
        LCBO -
    
    	Is it really a money making machine? I thought I heard
    that it lost an obnoxious amount of money per year (millions)
    ???  
    
    	Candace
    
    	

    Well, I hope they don't get rid of brewers retail.

    When you go there you can chose between a hundred beers, all kinds of
    micro brew stuff. You can't find that kind of selection in Quebec
    corner stores. I hope they keep it this way. For me, selection is more
    important than availability.

    Glenn

Wow, the standard deviation of this note is great!!

Re.(-1):
I agree Brewers Retail do have a great selection of beers, but it is still a
monopoly.

Re. (-3):
I also think that the LCBO got their monopoly for "puritanical" reasons. The
name would even suggest that "Liquor CONTROL Board"!!

Re.(-5)
I know that Ontario wines are generally.. er.. well how do I put this..
"interesting" 8^P. But I've heard that Pealey Island (spelling??) wines are
supposed to be ok.

I am really looking forward to moving to Canada, and I guess I just want the
best of both worlds. In Europe, you can buy all your food and booze at the local
supermarket, and they have a wide range too. In Ontario, or to be exact in
Kitchener-Waterloo where I spend most of my time when in Canada, it is
invariably the case that the supermarket, the LCBO and the Brewers Retail stores
are car rides away from each other. And the choice of wine is really quite
limited in most LCBO stores.

Thanks again for the responses

Peter

    The Brewer's Retail is not exactly a monopoly. It's owned by the
    brewers and by law they are obligated to sell shares to anyone in
    Ontario who makes beer. Locations are not regulated and legally they
    can open 'til 1AM 6 days a week if they wanted to. Oh, yah and
    breweries can run their own store if they wish and, gasp, open Sundays.

    
    re. 20
    
    Yeah, those Brewers retails have a lot going for them.  A hundred
    beers, 94 of them from Labatts and Molson's, made from three recipies.  
    Far apart stores, virtually no imports, very few micros, especially in 
    most towns, surly staff, line-ups, crappy decor, no pop, snacks, etc.,
    no sales, some of the world's highest prices, no sunday service, a
    lovely loading dock atmosphere, away from the main malls, a customer
    orientation of "our way, or forget it", a silly name, a magnet for
    chocolate bar pests, untrained staff who beer knowledge is zilch, 
    (try asking them what happened to XX brand), freezing stores, a policy
    of freezing out micros by making them pay a grand a store just to
    stock their beer, etc. 
    
    Other than those minor points, they are definitely a fine example of
    customer marketing, say 1953 Moscow style.
    
    Quebec corner stores aren't the alternative.  US west coast stores are.
    
    
    Marshall 
    
    
    

    
    re .22
    
    Brewer's retail *is* a monopoly.  Besides stores in actual
    breweries, and LCBO's, they have a monoply on selling beer and
    virtually set the price.  LCBO regulates imports, they have a very
    short list of what *they* think we should drink. 
    
    Molson's and Labatt's have virtual control due to the number of shares
    they hold.  Try telling a micro or importer that they aren't a monoply.
    This system sucks and isn't needed.
    
    
    Marshall
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
     

    Well, I brew my own beer at those you brew it places. After drinking my
    own stuff which is 1/2 the price and to me, better tasting, I rarely go
    to the retail outlet.

    The system they have in BC really sucks. Guess that's what made me
    appreciate Brewers Retail.

    If I were allowed to open a brew store, it would be all micro brew
    products and some imports.

    Glenn

    
    Is there anywhere in Canada that has a good, widespread selection of
    beer and/or wine?  Price aside, it doesn't sound like anything has really
    worked to improve the situation much.  (i.e. does Quebec have a wine
    selection now?)
    
    Marshall stepping_of_his_soap_box_for_a_second_to_grab_a_beer
    
    
    
    

    Quebec is ok on wines for sure. Beer? I dunno. It's nearly impossible
    to get micro brewed stuff in Quebec. In fact, I can't even name one
    small Quebec brewer.

    Glenn

    In Montreal at least it's fairly easy to find McAusland brews (St.
    Ambroise and Griffon) Belle Guelle and a couple others. 
    
    Where I live there are three In/Outs within walking distance, although
    I admit I wouldn't care to lug a whole square home from the furthest
    one. I know folks in the micro business, they hate the Brewers fo rthe
    reasons stated but they love it too, for despite it's pitfalls it's the
    best and cheapest distribution channel they've got. Have you checked
    out the listing fees the groceries charge, they charge up to
    $5,000 per location. 

Well, today is my last day at DEC, so I just want to thank you for all the
replies to this note, and to say good bye. Maybe I'll meet some of you when we
do eventually arrive in Canada, the Hi-tech world is amazingly small sometimes.

Have a good Christmas and a very happy new year.

ciao

Peter