Conference kaosws::canada

    About time some kind of stance was taken by the government concerning
    lax immigration laws.
    Sean
    

         I think its about time Canada is more selective with the
    immigrants that arrive into this country year after year.
    We should choose immigrants who can contribute by either their
    education or investments.  It's time to stop immigration
    for the sole purpose of reuniting families.
    
    Blair. 
    
    
                 

    re .2  After all the queen need more money...

    
    re.-1 
    
    What's she got to do with it? No money goes back that way over the
    Atlantic.  
    
    It's not her that wants all Hong Kong cash.  Hint: He works in Ottawa
    and wears awful loud shirts on the national news.......
    
    
    
    
    
       
    
    

         You guys are right.  How silly of me to forget the Queen.
    I should be taken out and given 20 lashings with the broken end
    of her teacup!  After all, who do you think is paying for the
    restoration after that nasty fire over there a couple of years ago?
    
         There is, after all a federal fund set up to send over 
    $100,000,000 each year to her majesty.  Who do you think pays 
    for her visits to Canada?  
    
         I'm sorry...I'd better stop.  The bile is starting to rise!!!
    
    
         Your local fed-up Canadian taxpayer,
    
         Blair.       
    
     

    Some information gleaned from "Canada's Changing Immigrant Population",
    a Statistics Canada report released this past July, based upon census 
    information up to and including 1991:

    - In 1991, a greater portion of adult immigrants held university
      degrees (14%) than those born in Canada (11%).  The most recent
      batch of immigrants (who arrived between '81 and '91) were degreed
      at a rate of 17%.

    - 15% of immigrant adult males held management positions and 17.1%
      were professionals, compared with 13.6% for Canadian-born men in
      both categories.

    - 66.2% of immigrants were married, compared to 51.9% of Canadian-
      born.  4.9% of immigrants were currently divorced versus 6.3% of
      Canadian-born.

    - The median number of years of schooling for immigrants was 12.8,
      compared to 12.5 for Canadian-born.

    - 65.2% of all immigrants aged 15 and older were employed.  Canadian-
      born rate was 68.7%.  For immigrants arriving since 1961, the 
      employment rates were higher, at 77.8% for the most recent batch.

    - Immigrants working are more likely to be working full-time than 
      Canadian-born.  Male rates are 92% vs. 89%; female rates are 77%
      vs. 72%

    - Immigrant men from Africa, Southern Asia, the Caribbean, and
      Central and South America had the highest rates of labour force
      participation.

    - Immigrant population of Canada has remained stable at 16% since
      1951.

     
    re.-1
    
    You mean to say that the ration of Immigrant to native-born has been 
    *constant* at 16% since 1951??!!!
    
    I can't buy that. If nothing else it should be an erratic curve.
    Especially with changing death rates, emmigration, refugees, and large
    changes to the immigration ceilings.  Nothing is that consistent.
    
    
    Marshall

    
    I was simply passing on the conclusions of Stats Can. When discussing
    an issue such as immigration, it helps to have some facts to put the
    issue into perspective.
    
    Do you believe their data to be in error?  I have not read the entire
    report, so I currently am in no position to dispute their conclusions.
    

    An additional fact is that on average each immigrant creates 3 (or was
    it 6) jobs. This means that for each "family member" who comes in and
    does not create a job there is another who comes in and crates 6 (or it
    could be 12). Canada's immigration policy is quite well balanced in my
    opinion. We are accepting both poor and rich, but in a way that has a
    net benifit for Canada. I don't think I could justify taking only the
    rich since my ancestors were not rich, and I think they and their
    decendants have contributed to the country.
    
     now if you want to talk about letting criminals in, or the wives of
    murdering thugs (like that dork in Somallia), or not deporting people
    who have standing orders.... Feel free. I think the Reform Party has
    latched onto immigrants, and the country has followed along without the
    benifit of any real data as to the important role immigrants play in
    this country.
    
    							Derek.

         Speaking of data, could you briefly explain how each immigrant
    creates 3-6 jobs?  Excuse my ignorance with statistics, but I
    fail to see why this happens.  I'm one who believes immigration
    enriches our country both culturally and financially, but I've 
    never heard of facts stating such numbers.
    
         Blair.

    sure...
    
     If immigrant 1 comes to Canada with about $13,000,000 and starts a
    company that creates 60 jobs. Then 9 more can come in and the net result
    would be 10 new Canadians and 60 new jobs. Statistically that would
    represented as for each new immigrant Canada gets 6 new jobs. I saw an
    in depth report on CBC about immigration about 8 months ago, and that
    is where I got the info.
    
    
     The current idea for immigration is that the rich pay the way for the
    poor. Fair if you ask me.
    
    
    							Derek.

Under the new rules will Mr Bobbit be able to enter Canada to promote his
movie John Wayne Bobbit UNCUT? He was scheduled to perform his promotional 
ballet in Toronto.

It seems that Mr Bobbit was turned down for entry into the country due to
an assult charge.

	Ouch!

	Derek and "not..." Collins,

	Thanks for some thought-provoking tid-bits (not as in donuts) on a 
	topic that often results in polarized impasses (sp), certainly due in 
	part to lack of information.

	It's tough for me to get clarity on this subject, when what I often see 
	in the media is a two-sided affair, usually with one side running some 
	subtle and/or not so subtle racism and the other side running a 
	victimization/helpless role. I'm sure a lot of other people share this 
	confusion.

	I believe that there are a lot of positions between the two, just not
	a lot of data available (which can also be attributable in part to
	laziness on mine and other people's parts not researching it). 

	Information such as the data you provided can't help but dispel
	some of the haze in this area for a lot of people.


	Richard

    How about puting the imigration,statistics etc.........issues at the
    side for now.Why not one of us standup like the Australians_____
    {self rule}Ifigure that way we shall even increase the number of
    investors.
                  
                        mike.

    
    Derek,
    
     Nice of you to mention that each immigrant creates 3-6 job
    opportunities for other Canadians, but these immigrants are in a
    very small minority.
     The bulk of our immigrants, unfortunately, are poor and oppressed 
    people who have next to no skills, and within short order resort
    to social assistance.
    
     I think that it this class of immigrants which tend to upset 
    long-standing Canadaians.
     I'm sure you'll reason that previous waves of immigrants were
    for the most part poor, but don't forget that social assistance was
    non-existant then, and the emigree had to struggle and work his
    way up the ladder.
      In my opinion, this worked out much better in the long run, as
    each immigrant learned that not everything here was paved in gold
    and nothing was free for the asking.
    
    
      What I'm getting at is I feel that we are much too generous
    and should maybe scrutinize immigrant applications more thoroughly
    and possibly allow a different calibre of folks in ....
    
    
    

    Note 871.16
 
    >The bulk of our immigrants, unfortunately, are poor and oppressed 
    >people who have next to no skills, and within short order resort
    >to social assistance.
    
    Statistics Canada disagrees with you, but I'm assuming you can refer
    to some documentation that will back up this claim.  Perhaps you've
    confused `illegal immigrants' with the much larger group, `legal
    immigrants'?
    
    jc
    

    KAOFS::N_PIROLLO
    
    >>Nice of you to mention that each immigrant creates 3-6 job
    >>opportunities for other Canadians, but these immigrants are in a
    >>very small minority.
    
     Do the math Norm. If on ***average*** each immigrant creates 3-6 new
    jobs, it is not a "small minority" but each and every one. As the last
    noter says, you are contradicting information made available publicly,
    and an indication of where you got this opinion would be helpful.
    
    								Derek.

    
     re 871.17
        871.18
    
      Sorry, I  haven't much in the way of supportive documents.
    All you need to do is read the news and note that our own
     Immigration Minister has decided to clamp down on immigration,
    basically reiterating what I've said. There must be some cold hard
    facts
    to back up this decision.
    
     I relaize that this is a touchy subject where one can  easily
    be wrongly interpreted and be accused of possibly racism, etc..
    and I can't mention that al I need to do is drive through some parts of
    cities to determine what type of folks we've let in. Of course,
    I then am accused of targeting visible minorities.
    
     I fully support having the enterprising class of immigrant enter
    Canada, along with the average person. But why do I along with
    many others feel that the immigration process is out of control and
    almost anyone is allowed in, regardless of possible contribution.
    
     Everyone might have their convenient set of numbers to dispute
    this claim, but I havea good friend in a social service function
    within this city. They themselves have time and time again mentioned
    that too many people are showing up at their door expecting to
    be handed everything from social assistance cheques to , beleive it or
    not,
    everything that isn't bolted down in the office. They have been somehow
    led to believe that anything is theirs' for the asking.
    
     This is just a small microcosm of what is actually happening
    out there, I believe, and very reflective of the warped immigration
    process in this country.
    
    
    Daggers Away,
    Norm
    

    
    Re: Note 871.19, Norm:
    
    >All you need to do is read the news and note that our own
    >Immigration Minister has decided to clamp down on immigration,
    >basically reiterating what I've said. There must be some cold hard
    >facts to back up this decision.

    As you probably know, the news media don't always portray a
    representative slice of life's pie.  For every bad thing that
    happens, a hundred good things happen which never make it past
    the editor.  As far as Marchi is concerned...I don't take his
    actions to be indicative of a problem...I see them as being
    crowd-pleasers designed to dampen public fears of immigration
    mismanagement; and I see those public fears as being based to
    a large extent on media reports of the actions of certain
    ILLEGAL immigrants.  I'm still waiting for someone to illustrate
    exactly what the LEGAL immigrants are doing wrong, or at least,
    MORE wrong than what Canadian-born people are guilty of.
    
    >I relaize that this is a touchy subject where one can  easily
    >be wrongly interpreted and be accused of possibly racism, etc..
    >and I can't mention that al I need to do is drive through some parts 
    >of cities to determine what type of folks we've let in. Of course,
    >I then am accused of targeting visible minorities.

    This is correct, and is indicative of one of the problems I have
    with the current debate.  You see, my mother, my paternal grand-
    father, and my cousin all belong to a group I refer to as 
    `invisible immigrants'.  They are white, anglo-saxon, speak
    fluent english, and generally fit right in.  If we allowed a
    million of these types in annually, no-one would care.  But once
    the immigrants start to seem strange to the Canadian-born, 
    people start to get uncomfortable, and I am always suspicious of
    this reaction.  Especially so in tough economic times, when those
    who feel powerless to better their situations in life tend to look
    for an "other" to blame.
    
    >I fully support having the enterprising class of immigrant enter
    >Canada, along with the average person. But why do I along with
    >many others feel that the immigration process is out of control and
    >almost anyone is allowed in, regardless of possible contribution?

    The fallacy of negative instances?  I know plenty of people who
    had a *hell* of a time getting in.  It's not quite the cakewalk the
    media has portrayed. 
    
    >Everyone might have their convenient set of numbers to dispute
    >this claim, but I havea good friend in a social service function
    >within this city. They themselves have time and time again mentioned
    >that too many people are showing up at their door expecting to
    >be handed everything from social assistance cheques to , beleive it or
    >not, everything that isn't bolted down in the office. They have been 
    >somehow led to believe that anything is theirs' for the asking.
    
    I appreciate that you have anecdotal evidence for your position.
    I also have such evidence.  But a discussion of issues has to be 
    based on overall trends, statistics, and facts.  So far, I have
    not seen any evidence that legal immigration is causing a problem
    in this country.  Stats Can, and (if I recall correctly) the C.D.
    Howe Institute believe that immigration is an economic necessity
    for Canada.
    
    >This is just a small microcosm of what is actually happening
    >out there, I believe, and very reflective of the warped immigration
    >process in this country.
    
    Someone much sharper than I once said that a problem well stated is
    a problem half solved.  With this in mind, I would like to know just
    exactly what the problem really is, because so far, all I have seen is
    a public swept along by news reports of the slayings of Vivi Leomonis
    (sp?) and Todd Baylis.

    And...of course...let me add the obvious cliche that Canada is a 
    nation of immigrants.  We have all been the benefactors of Canada's
    immigration policy, and the country has held itself to the world as
    a model of `Quality Of Life'.  It should come as no surprise that
    people wish to move here, and I know full well that if I had been
    born in Somalia, India, Vietnam or Cambodia, I'd probably bust a gut
    to get here, too.  Closing the door now that we have `arrived' has
    always struck me as smug, as if one had spent one's time prior to 
    birth weighing the pros and cons before finally coming to the wise
    and hard-won decision to be born in Canada.  I didn't.  I was *lucky*
    to be born here, and I admire the spirit of those capable of leaving
    a homeland to build a new life in another country.  If you think it's
    easy, try moving to Japan (that is, assuming you're not Japanese :*).

    Those of us born here have never known HALF of what people in some
    parts of the world face on a daily basis.  I say we can afford to
    be generous with the `breaks'.

    John

        re .16
    
        Let's don't mix diffent kinds of immigrants
        
        1. Those who have money (investment immigrant)
           They will submit their investment plan with their 
        application. Normally the plan will indicate how much money 
        they are going to invest here and how many jobs will be 
        created.
        
        2. Those who have skills (independent immigrant)
           They normally finished at least high school and can speak 
        either English or French and have skills that Canada needs. 
        They are able to find a job here within a reasonable period of 
        time. They may have some money but the wealth is not a 
        determining factor in granting the immigtation visa.
        
        3. Those who have close relative in Canada (family reunion)
           They may have some skills but not the skills that we need. 
        They may have some money but not enough to become an 
        investment immigrant. They have a close relative in Canada who 
        is either a landed immigrant or a citizen who is willing to 
        undertake the responsibility for their living for at least 10 
        years.
        
        4. Refugees
           They arrive Canada by tourist visa or other method and they 
        will face inhumane treatment due to their political or 
        religion viewpoint, They are granted to stay due to 
        humanitarian reasons.
        
        
        
        Type 1 would create more jobs and type 2 will make us more 
        competitive in the global market. They are never a burden to 
        our social system and are more likely to work hard rather than 
        abuse the system. We should not just let them in but rather 
        attract them in. I am neutral to type 3 but would see this as 
        an attraction to potential type 1 and 2 immigrants.
        
        There are people that come here and claim that they are 
        refugees. They got a tourist visa and board the plane to come 
        here. During the journey they destroy their passport and when 
        they arrive they claim that they are refugees. We listen to 
        their story and grant them refugee status. We have no way to 
        verify their name or story or criminal record. They are given 
        social welfare when they are waiting for their case to be 
        listen. They are given free provincial health plan + drugs. 
        They are not allowed to look for jobs because of their status.
        
        Our government is resposible to make sure that refugee 
        claimant meet the criteria set forth by our law, They are 
        responsible to enforce the deportation orders for those whom 
        we let in but broke our criminal codes. They are resposible to 
        help those legit claimants to establish themselves in Canada, 
        to encourage them to earn their living and to discourage them 
        to rely on our social security system. Obviously our 
        government is not doing a good job int these aspects. I am not 
        saying that we should stop refugees coming in but we should 
        develop a more sensible way of deciding who is a refugee and 
        who is not.
        
        We should not close our door to immigrants, we should fix our 
        system first.
        
        David-Cheng-a-type-2-immigrant
        (who and his family never collect UI nor socail benefit nor 
        committe any crime)

                    

     re 871.19
>>   Sorry, I  haven't much in the way of supportive documents.

	Glad to hear you recognized that your comments are not 
        based on any relevant documentation.

>>  All you need to do is read the news and note that our own
    Immigration Minister has decided to clamp down on immigration,
    basically reiterating what I've said. There must be some cold hard
    facts to back up this decision.

	Glad to hear that you think that if a politician said it, it must
	be true...     

>>     I relaize that this is a touchy subject where one can  easily
    be wrongly interpreted and be accused of possibly racism, etc..

	Rightly so. How else would you  qualify someone who makes
	disparaging and unfounded comments about immigrants.

>>    and I can't mention that al I need to do is drive through some parts of
    cities to determine what type of folks we've let in. Of course,
    I then am accused of targeting visible minorities.
  
	Rightly so again. To prove the case in point, would you care to
	elaborate on the "type of folks we've let in" while driving around ?
	Do they look, smell  or sound special? or different ? or both ?
	Would that be a sure sign of anti-social behavior ?
	If it is the case, perhaps we have here the beginning of a solution:
	putting you in an RCMP cruiser, in charge of pointing out to the 
	officer the folks they should deport.
 
>>     I fully support having the enterprising class of immigrant enter
    Canada, along with the average person.

	Very nice of you. But think twice: your line of arguments usually 
	goes on with the theory that those enterprising emigrants aspire 
	and conspire to take over: the world, Canada, banking, the medias, 
	the good jobs,etc.  

>>	But why do I along with many others feel that the immigration process 
	is out of control and almost anyone is allowed in, regardless of 
	possible contribution.

	Because you and the alleged "many others" do not care to base your
	"feelings" on any proven fact. It's much easier to just point out
	a scapegoat for whatever your problem is.
    
>>     Everyone might have their convenient set of numbers to dispute
    this claim, but I havea good friend in a social service function
    within this city. They themselves have time and time again mentioned
    that too many people are showing up at their door expecting to
    be handed everything from social assistance cheques to , beleive it or
    not, everything that isn't bolted down in the office. They have been 
    somehow led to believe that anything is theirs' for the asking.

	Did he mention if "they" were immigrants ?
	This "type of folks" could as well be Canadian Citizens in good 
	standing (a friend of mine told me so). 
    
>>     This is just a small microcosm of what is actually happening
    out there, I believe, and very reflective of the warped immigration
    process in this country.

	How's life in the twilight zone ?
    

    re:.21
    David you are ABSOLUTELY correct in your definitions.
    
    It's the failure to comprehend these differences that create statements
    like Norm's about the 'poor and oppressed immigrants'. 
    It's unlikely the poor (in any significant numbers) can emigrate under 
    the point system that Canada uses. 
    
    
    richard

    I've set the previous note hidden and mailed to the authour. I've tried
    to keep hands off here much more than Stuart but I felt it had the
    potential to be taken very much the wrong way leading to consequenses
    none of us wants. I've exchanged mail with the authour, he clearly
    meant no offense and I hope he will re-enter his message with some of
    the explainations he gave me.  

    Interesting reading back over these notes, and relating it to my
    experiences... Getting into to Canada is a complete NIGHTMARE! My
    Canadian wife came to England last year, filled in one form, paid $40,
    then had to wait three months but that was it, here we go, have this
    stamp in your passport, stay as long as ya like, have FREE healthcare
    etc. etc. etc. Now we are trying to do the same thing with me going to
    Canada... The forms themselves were enormous (why does Canada need to
    know all my Aunts and Uncles birth dates????? I didn't even know them!).
    I'm bringing some $20,000 with me, and yet my wife has to provide
    assurances she can earn a certain amount, I've NEVER been out of work,
    and would hope to find work in Canada easily enough. I had the doctor
    prodding and poking me yesterday to check I'm OK (I can understand
    this), and the whole process now has to be delayed again to ensure I'm
    not a raging convict!!! Sheeze, they make it hard enough, and the worst
    of it is how inpersonal it all is, the Canadian embassy in London
    REFUSE to talk to anyone about it, they'll do it in letters (thus
    delaying things more so) but not over the phone OR in person...
    
    Damn, all this so I can just come and scrounge off your social
    system!!! NOT. I could stay here if I wanted to do that!!!
    
    Alen.

    I'm sorry to hear this. But we've been so generous in the past and got
    screwed by abusers of the system and now you're paying for it. Maybe
    we're being too careful now, sounds like it anyway. I would think
    Canada would be encouraging an immigrant like you. We need more proven
    tax payers in this country.

    
    I am glad it is not easy to get in. Sounds like you will have no
    problem proving yourself to the authorities. It will be well worth it
    when you get here! You only have to do it once. We are an elite 'club'
    here so some patience and perseverance on your part is necessary.
    You will have to get used to big government here also, maybe you are being
    put through a test for tolerence to useless paperwork?
    
    good luck!

    They should go back to a points system and ditch a lot of the
    bureaucracy.

    You had to mention taxes Glenn, what are you trying to do, scare him
    off?
    
    
    
    
    joan

    er, he's from the U.K right?
    
    8)

    
    If you think Canada is bad, try Switzerland or Australia.
    
    8*)
    /Pat

    One of the questions on the Australian application is:
    
    Mind if we call you Bruce?

    
    
   / If you think Canada is bad, try Switzerland or Australia
    
    Try Manitoba

    they're trying to stop a flood of immigration?

    
    Water you talking about? The pool of applications to emigrate?