Conference kaosws::canada

    
    Let's not.  I don't like where your're leading to.  
    
    Lets get Quebec to vote, and get the economic disaster over with.
    It's gonna get ugly, but it has to be peaceful.   
    
    
    Marshall
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    RE: .0
    
    It's people like you whot cause unrest.
    
    Glenn

    Don't let the reactionary seperatists bias you against all Quebecers. I
    for one, am also sick and tired of the MINORITY of Quebecers being seen
    as representing the MAJORITY. What really galls me is the attitude
    these seperatists have that if they loose the referendum, they get to
    try again and again. If they win, it's all over. It goes against the
    premise of democracy. But then again, I am starting to think they are
    facists. I also think Canada HAS had enough of this seperatist crap,
    and I hope the fence sitters in Quebec realize that. A vote for the PQ
    is a vote for anarchy
    
    							Derek.

    POLAR::RICHARDSON
    
    >>It's people like you whot cause unrest.
    
     And Lucy's trip abroad was meant to calm the waters ? How about the
    scare tactics being used against anyone with the nerve to say that
    seperation could have undesireable results. As we were talking about at
    lunch today. The seperatists can make all the noise and false
    statements they want, but if someone stands up to them they are
    "causing unrest". You have the tail wagging the dog on that one I
    think.
    
    							Derek.

    
         Believe me, I certainly am not biased against ALL Qu�becers.
    I am merely stating that the seperatists in Qu�bec(if not stopped)
    will destroy Qu�bec and Canada along with it.  
         Canadians are known to sit back and wait for troubles to blow
    over.  This problem will not go away unless we stand up as a nation
    against these seperatists.  This most certainly includes the MAJORITY
    of Qu�becers who want to stay with Canada.
    
         How do we do this?  Well, as Derek stated, referendums don't work!
    The seperatist movement will just simply try again until their goal is
    reached.  I myself don't have the answer, but I do know this...
    We can't simply just sit back and watch the drama unfold as our country
    is being destroyed.  People like Lucy and Parizeau are only interested
    in one thing: placing their names in the history books as the men who
    were able to tear a country apart!  The people of Qu�bec have to see
    beyond these men and concentrate on the welfare of their province and
    the welfare of Canada.  
    
         The sad thing is it may already be too late because of bitterness
    in the rest of Canada.
    
    

    
    And just how do you suggest we do that ???
    
    Any vocallization by the ROC is just used by the seperatist movement
    to further stir Quebecers against the ROC.
    
    I'd prefer a Canada with Quebec but I'm sick of the constant
    complaining, and government consesions...
    
    
    Brian V
    
    Personally...the Bloc should have lost all their seats with they would
    not re-affirm their oath of allegience.
    
    
    

Just curious...if Quebec ever voted to seperate how long do you think it would
take before there was talk of a referendum to rejoin Canada?

Ben

    POLAR::MCNALLY
    
    >>Asked if their commitment to Canada was to the nation or just to the
    >>area you actually live in, 78% said to Canada.  Eighty three of
    >>Quebec respondents agreed.
    
     Lends credence to the theory that seperation has been an empty
    blackmail threat all along, and that Canada has been a big sucker for
    falling for it.
    
    							Derek.
    

From what I can see Lucien Bouchard's trips accross Canada promoting the
separation of Quebec has the sole purpose of getting the ROC angry and to the 
point where they will seem to be revolting against Quebec.  The point of 
this is to further the cause of separatists.  We've already seen some 
comments coming from the likes of Ralph Klein and other premiers.  The only 
result of this is that Quebeckers who are borderline fedaralist may be 
tempted to say enough is enough and join the separatist movement.  It's a 
well thought out hypocritical plan which I think the media is giving too much 
attention to.

According to the last polls separatists in Quebec are still a minority.  The 
only problem is that they're a vocal minority which the federalist majority 
is not.  I'll make my voice heard at the next election, the only 
demonstration that counts.

Questions is if there's a referendum, will it be a "once and for all" 
referendum?  It may be until we start talking about the constitution again.
That constitution has put us in a real mess.

/Mario

    You are right, lets kick those $%?&* Kebeckers out of Canada, everyone
    will be happier for it, we won't have to read all this trash french on
    our cereal boxes and bread loaves, not to mention Newfoundland will be
    that much closer to Toronto when Qu�bec leaves.
    
    John
    

	How many referendums or should I say, how many Quebec politicians
	must we put in the history books, must we endure before enough
	is said to be enough.

	It's too bad that a couple of glory seeking politicians
	give the good people of Quebec a bad name to the rest
	of Canada.

	Charlie

	ps Did anyone know that Quebec, Qu�bec, KEHBEC [whatever] is an
	indian word...

    	I don't care what anybody says, as long as you have different
    languages you will never have real unity. Interesting that when Europe
    is trying to unite, we are trying to separate.

    	Yes, the vocal minority in Qu�bec rant and rave, and the vocal
    English minority in the ROC rant and rave. Have you ever met a Western
    separatist? Believe me, it's a real treat. I'll take a Qu�bec separatist
    any day.

    	There's unrest being caused on both sides. If everyone would stay
    calm and try to hash out a deal that can't be thwarted by political
    grand standing, then Canada would have a chance.

    	As for you Derek, you seem to be an open wound surrounded by a
    world of iodine.

    Hope this helps,

    Glenn

	re .16

>    	I don't care what anybody says, as long as you have different
>    languages you will never have real unity.

	Do we have any Welsh readers who might want to comment on that?

	Tony

Questions:

If the separatists of Quebec are a minority within Quebec how is it that
the Bloc Quebecois are now the official opposition?

Are federalist Quebecers greedy enough to want what the threat of separation
can give them without actually wanting to separate?

Ben

    re .0
    I find it of great amusment that you are mad at Quebecers for booing
    your "National Anthem".  I understand it is their national anthem also.
    
    What's your stance on the booing of the official (bilingual) Anthem in 
    Toronto's sporting arenas( SKYdome or Maple Leaf gardens).
    ...Are you equally upset?
    
    I think it hardly worth the press (ink).
    
    I'd be with you though if it was another nationality (ie, Americians not
    to single them out) booing our national anthem.
    
    
    I heard a predition from CBC that if the PQ wins the election
    expect the referendum call to be +/- a few days around next year's
    StJeanBapiste day.
    So if you don't want Quebec to leave, you have a year to move here
    qualify for the ballot, vote no, then leave. :-)
    
    But as we are reminded that the separatist movement only needs one
    victory, you can't leave or they win.
    
    So if you want to make a difference, 
    1. move here,
     
    2. vote federal politicans that won't give the provinces so much
       control of the national agenda of keeping this country together.
    
    3. on referendum day buy a separatist a few beers until the voting
       booth closes. :-)))
      Anybody want to keep Jean busy? :-) I can't do it I have to vote.
    
    
    richard
    give me an anthem with no lyrics. I'll hum along just fine.
    
    
    
    

    The attitude of "screw you" is why we as a nation are in this mess.

    The Expos organization did what they had to do so that there would be
    peace. If they had taken the "screw you" attitude, they may have had a
    riot on their hands or at least several fights in the stands. However I
    think their reasons were less noble, it's about fans and ticket sales.

    Glenn

    re .20 if you are referring to my reply.
        No I'm not missing the boat on the issue.
    
    The note's title and the discussion thread  in .0 
    talks of "booing the anthem".
    
    The issue (or boat as you prefer) is the booing. No booing
    no controversy.  No controversy, no potential media feeding frenzy.
    No media feeding frenzy, no sustained controversy.
    
    
    The Expos's didn't boo the anthem and it was played. So where's
    your "boat" heading then.
    OH! you wanted it a game time, so it can be boo'ed so the ROC as say see
    Quebecer's boo'ed OUR anthem.  We can't boo theirs (since their's is
    ours) so lets rag on them some more.   Why?  
    
    Understand that being a Quebec company offering a service to
    a mainly Quebec audience it was being respectful to it's clients
    cultural identity (on THEIR day of profond cultural awareness).  
    Do you think this would happen *if* they played on St Patrick's day?
    
    
    They correctly chose the route least likely to **prolong** a controversy.
    And it's the media on either side of this issue that would prolong it
    not the fans or non-paying customers. Well the media and a few
    who think this is a big deal.
    
    They avoided turning this into another national circus.
    Like this country really needs more polarization.
    
    I think your boat is pilotless.
    
    
    > who cares if a bunch of morons want to boo the anthem.
    
    Well actually we should all care, if it's a foreign moron.
    It's not like a national anthem is a team's fight song.
    This is call national pride. I'm not saying you don't have it so 
    don't infer that. From your comment you obviously care some.
    
    If it's local moron, who cares...not I. It's ok for Canadians to dump
    on Canada, not ok for others. IMO.
    
    
    
    richard
    
    
    
    
    richard
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    you all could have Roseanne Barr squeal out your National
    Anthem...that'll be something to complain about!

    Speaking of things musical...
    
    It was reported by the Moose Creek Daily Screech that "a serious head
    injury occured at the Russian Rhythm Symposium, or in other words,
    there was a concussion at the Russian percussion discussion".
    
    Korff O'Barbunk

    Exactly!! We haven't had the "screw you" attitude as a country.
    But contrary to you, I see that as a strength not a weakness.
    
    The reason we are on this separatist parley is because of a growing
    screw you attitude. Why do you think we went from 3 major political
    parties to 5 (well actually still 3 with 2 also ran).
    Looks like screw 'em lets do it (or go it) our way to me.
    Sounds like your "screw you" is their "screw 'em" retort.
    
    Yes the shit disturbers are a minority. More correctly, militants of
    any agenda are usually in the minority.
    But if stamping them out is so easy and successful.  Why after
    calling out the FLQ do we have a PQ and a BQ following.
    
    So now the BQ is upfront and calling on Canada do something about us.
    So now the PQ posied to win another provincial election is calling
    it's citizen out...do something about us.
    
    What do you proposed? Another FLQ solution, kick them out of the
    country. Gee isn't that what they want.
    
    I agree with your one line this is a beautiful country.
    It's tempered response to internal and external adversities is why we
    are not now an Ireland, or Korea, or China or India
    or Yemen or Pakistan or Isreal or Lebanon or Iraq or Iran or Germany
    or France or UK. Gee when was the last time we had to worry about
    a bomb in a train station..( bad example we are eliminating VIA).
    
    Anyway we are a long way off from the booing the anthem basenote.
    But I still think the Expo's response was a tempered one in keeping
    with the makeup of the country.
    They beat the Braves the last two games, and nothing in the news 
    (I've seen) is distracting from that.
    
    
    
    richard
       
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I think Korff O'Barbunk has made a very, very, very, extremely unique 
    point.
    
    Glenn

    Sean,
    
    	I think you are confused.
    
    	Preston is the only party who's main goal is deficit reduction.
    How you can get the economy going when 40% of all tax dollars is going
    to pay the debt is a mystery to me.
    
    	Preston is the only one up there with enough integrity to stand
    up to Q and let them know they have to play by the same rules as
    everyone else or hit the road.
    
    Brian V
    
    PS can you tell I'm a Reform supporter ?
    

    re -.1

    |Preston is the only one up there with enough integrity to stand
    |up to Q and

    Well, the only other person I've seen stand up to Q with any sort of
    results is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, a man of French descent. So, that
    sort of blows your silly little theory all to pieces doesn't it?

    Glenn

    RE .-1
    
         You ARE sick in an UNbalanced sort of way!
    
         Blair.

	Glen(n)

	How true, but Tasha stood up to Q as well and look what it got her;
	time in the penalty box.

	Charlie

    
    sean,
    I partially agree with your statemnet.
    ..."all national anthems should be banned from all sporting events".
    
    In that the playing of, do belong at the events like the Commonwealth
    games, the Olympic games, such venues whereby the athletes are
    representing their country or nation.
    But yes in professional, purely commericial house leagues...naw.
    I always like the FLYER for playing GOD BLESS AMERICA (Kate Smith days).
    
    
    But as your the rest of .28 ..I guess it depends on who your WE is.
    IN "WE have never really implemented the "Screw you".
    
    I take we to mean gov't, then the P.E.T. actions (re FLQ crisis) 
    was definitely within that context. 
    Harrassment and detainment was exactly what was happenning inside 
    the province. 
    Look at Brian Mul-RUIN-ME's behaviour during the Meech.
    Look at HARPER's voting...those all look like the gov't following your
    agenda to me.
    
    If your we is for the general populus, then how would you implement
    this mind set and still remain within the bound of the legal system 
    we support. It doesn't take much to incite a riot. Win a hockey game
    lose a hockey game same behaviour. Looked like the I don't care
    about you attitude to me there as well. :-)  I know not the same,
    different class of idiots. :-)  But this is the mind set you want
    unleashed.
    
    
    Also I think you mean Canadians are INfamous for being non threatening.
    I imply that they are famous for such behaviour.
    
    
    The election will certainly decide the immediate course. 
    And this issue will remain alive. There will always be a small minority
    stiring this brew.  Calling them out only validates their agenda.
    You have to ignore them and educate the populus as to the benefits of
    leaving or staying.  
    Given the proper information, the right decision usually follows.
    Give them incomplete (or scare mongering) and you end up with 
    the BQ's existance.
    
    Like it or not the PQ is a good party for the province of Quebec (IMO).
    But I'd NEVER vote for them as long as separation is their platform.
    Like the DNP in Ontario, nice party just can't afford them Price is too
    high.  :--)
    
    richard
    
     
    Re: Q
    	charlie ..Woopie's character (never could spell that name)
       She stood up to Q (even stabbed him)...it got her a bad hair day.
       (for her that meant washed and styled)
    

    Not intended as an reply to this, only to ask a personal question?
    I knew a Richard Harper  - from Cornwall - any relation?

    >>              Could you please give me some concrete facts as to
    >> what atrocities or large scale "provincial disorders " occurred
    >> during the FLQ crisis in the early seventies.  My one remaining
    
    
    	Well you're wrong. Hundreds of thousands of Quebecois were 
    interrogated, incarcerated, spied on for no reason at all. The 
    military just took advantage of their position to do whatever they
    wanted to (no physical abuse though). I believe that's when the
    PQ party (w/ Rene Levesque not the born liar Parizeau) really took off.
    
    Andy
    PS. You can now go back to your Globe N Mail

    Whenever one talks about the FLQ crisis, one should always remember
    that the War Measures Act was invoked and federal troops activated in
    Quebec at the DIRECT REQUEST of the Premiere of Quebec.  If Bourassa
    hadn't asked, the tropps would not have been activated and all those
    "hundreds of thousands" of Quebecois would never have been
    interrogated, incarcerated etc. ...

    Passing the buck eh Garry? :*)
    
    Bourassa asked for the CDN troops to come in while Trudeau elected
    to wait. Problem is, the CDN federalists took advantage of it (and
    I believe the Cdn federalist were governed out of Ottawa back then no?)
    
    At least you agree when you say that "hundreds of thousands" of
    Quebecois were indeed interrogated, incarcerated etc. ...
    Some rednecks still haven't realized that part.
    
    Andy

    Isn't "hundreds of thousands" a little bit of an exaggeration?
    
    -Stephen

    re -.1
    	Yeah, it should be hundreds OR thousands.
    
    Andy

	If by 'interrogation' you mean, the military went on a house
	by house interviewing process, then hundreds of thousands
	might be correct.

	I remember when the soldier came to our house. He simply
	asked a couple of questions (basically wondering if anything
	out of the ordinary had been noticed.

	Charlie

    re: .36
    I've been to Cornwall only because Digital sent me their to fix
    computers. So, no I'm not from Cornwall, nor do I have any family
    living there. However if he's rich, I can be adopted...but it's a
    package deal.
    
    re: FLQ crisis etc.
    The War Measures act was an overreaction. The military was needed 
    because of the events at the time, kidnapping, random bombing etc.
    But the war measures act allowed the QPP (now SQ) and civil police 
    to conduct arrest, detainment and, searches without warrants. 
    And this was exactly what was done.  
    For that period of time, the civil rights of Quebecers were suspended.
    So no it just wasn't soldiers standing on corner keeping an eye on
    things.
    
    re: Sean
    
    How can tolerant people be against something?  The very definition of
    the word precludes this.  Someone post this in voganball please.
    
    Since you can't affect the separatist platform inside Quebec (ie PQ),
    as they are a provincial party.  And the BQ won't run outside Quebec
    (another provincial party IMO)
    how do you and your tolerant people plan on to affect Quebec's separatist
    platform?   It's a Quebec problem not an ROC one. We are the idiots
    that voted them in and we have to vote them out.  You standing there
    ranting and raving just makes that more difficult. Even if you are not
    standing but jumping up and down blue in the face....
    
    If you consider Reform a separatist party then, sic em, go get 'em.
    If you don't well...move to Quebec and vote NO.
    
    >The Preoccupation with Quebec issues while ignoring the floundering
    >economy.
    The only people who shouldn't be preoccupied this Quebec issue(s) are
    non-quebecers, your ROC.  Quebecers had better be thinking about this.
    And this is affecting your economy. The economy is only slightly
    affecting the Quebec issues.  Don't assume it's the poor,or unemployed,
    or under-educated that will for vote separation. It's not that
    simplistic a problem. Fixing the ecomonmy will not resolve this at best
    it will delay this. But that's moot. The time nears.
    
    I don't follow your Chinese proverb string.
    
    You are right though the only solution is a referendum with
    constitutional strings attach.  But that would mean the ROC have to be
    preoccupied with the Quebec issue and you're against that.
    But lets say they are, as their faces were ram into it :-)
    
    It can't be a provinicial referendum, it has to be a country wide vote.
    Everybody gets the same chance to leave at the same time.  Keeps all
    the spin doctors busy, nobody meddling in another province's
    issues.
    
    Questions.
    1. Do you wish your province to leave confederation. Yes or NO.
    2. If NO, when should another referendum be conducted? 100 years or
       Never. IF any one province votes for 100 years, then it's a 100
       hundred years for all.
    3. Should all federal parties run candiates in all provinces to 
       before being granted federal party status.? Yes or No.
    If NO then write something into the constitution whereby each party
    must be represent by x number of ridings in y (as a minimum) 
    number of provinces.
    So no more BQ parties.
    That takes care to this either forever or for a darn long time.
    
    Then we get on with being Canadian again. Right after we take care of the
    Native issues, and the Elected Senate issues, and the selling Hydro to
    upstate NY issue, and the BC logging issues, and the east coast lack of
    a fishing industry issues, and the Ontario Hydro buying land in Brazil and
    Peru issues.....we'll be right back with the singing of our National
    Anthem :-) :-)  
    
    And we should definitly never allow another American to sing our
    Anthem. I want that in the constitution too. :--)
    
    
    richard
                                              

    
    Re: -.1
    Bravo.
    
    Never allow them to sing the anthem *OR* fly the flag...
    
    Pat

    Re: -2
    	Richard, overall you sound like a resonable guy who wants to see
    the PQ thrown out once an for all from the Quebec constituent.  Can't
    argue with common sense.  Let us hope the people of Quebec vote for
    Canada and not for a party that wants to break it up.  I am sure
    that smarter heads will prevails, but we'll all keep our fingers
    crossed in the meantime.
    BTW, it is possible to be tolerant and against something at the
    same time.  Check out your local Webster's.  I guess I am trying
    to liken the Canadian psyche to a man sitting on a nail without
    getting off of it, while he is yelling OUCH!!!!  Tolerance can
    be defined as non physical acts.  Intolerance is what you see going
    on in Rwanda.
    Talk to you soon.
    Sean

>    BTW, it is possible to be tolerant and against something at the
>    same time.  Check out your local Webster's.  I guess I am trying

Yes, it is possible ... but the grammar is to be "tolerant of" ... which
inherently means you are not "for" whatever ...

To be "tolerant" essentially means that you are "tolerant of" most things
you may disagree with.

Stuart