Conference kaosws::canada

Pickering is quite pleasant ...

Good bus service to GO train station where commuter trains can take you
right downtown, or 401 to DVP to downtown (yuchh ... but better than
some journeys)

Stuart

    
    - Why do you ask?  The answer may determine our responses.
    
    - For renting, generally first and last month's rent is the norm.
    
    - for a 'small house' expect 600-900 depending on features.  
    
    - Are you stuck on the suburbs? Why not look for a place within the
    city so that you can avoid the commute?
    
    Doug
    

    In pickering, you don't have to turn on the lights to see in the dark.
    
    

    I think I must be missing some vital information about Pickering. Is it
    anything like Cumbria in England where farmers hang a fresh sheep from
    the ceiling every night instead of a light bulb?
    
    I hadn't considered close to downtown because we'd like to live 
    somewhere relatively quiet - never having been city folks before...
    I've only seen downtown Toronto so far and although it's a great place
    (especially watching the Blue Jays hammer the Mariners) I would
    fancy something a little bit more rural. These comments wouldn't apply
    to Vancouver of course, which seems to be the most laid back city 
    possible! Even the cars wait patiently at intersections for the 
    pedestrians to pass - in London (England) you'd expect to survive
    approximately 30 minutes if you took the same attitude to traffic!
    
    
    Thanks for the info so far.....
    Regards
    
    Andrew
    (Basingstoke, England)
    

Well, I moved from England back in '81 and moved to Ottawa, which I far
prefer to Toronto in terms of lifestyle ... I found that I could not take
advantage of the things Toronto had to offer because of cost and commute
times ... 

For example, a concert starts at say 8.  You leave work at 5 to go home.
Home by say 6 - 6:15, change, grab food and head back downtown and you're
lucky to be there for 8.

That said, it still is a great place for a large city.

As to Pickering ... it has a large nuclear power facility ... to be sure,
but in the 18 months I lived there, I sure didn't hear of anyone glowing
in the dark.  Moreover, I actually felt more comfortable there than I
did when I lived about 6 miles away in Scarboroough.  Pickering is about
15 miles as the crow flies from Downtown Toronto.  People in Metro Toronto
hardly have a clue about the plant that sits on their very doorstep.  When
you live in Pickering, you are aware of it ... there is a town evacuation
plan ... there are plans to distribute iodine tablets in emergency.  A few 
miles away in Scarborough, there are no such plans, they are totally
oblivious of the reactors.

Still a good place to live though.

Stuart

    As much as Scarborough is slagged it is UPWIND from Pickering, and that
    perhaps explains the difference in attitude.
    
    An important note, Pickering in general is far from being rural.  What
    little farm land left is nothing like English countryside (all rustic
    and stuff), and will likely be developed into a new community (I forget
    the name, starts with an 'S' I think) in a few years.  Pickering is
    similar to Ottawa in development.  
    
    If you are looking for real rural, you may wish to look north to
    Richmond Hill/Newmarket.  These places are on the GO line (train) and
    are also developing fairly fast.  
    
    Doug

But Doug, nowhere will you find the same idea as English rural in
Ontario ...  Just doesn't exist.  The closest you get to English rural
is down in New England, and even that is still vrey different.

Parts of Pickering are still more small town ... but the new parts
are decidedly urban.  And then renting in an Ontario rural area is
difficult aroudn Toronto ... you've got to get out towards Barrie
or Orillia , or maybe Cheltenham ... although that area is developing
heavily too.

It's hard to escape Toronto's urban sprawl, because the because the
people who dislike the urban sprawl move out of town, and take the 
sprawl with them!

Stuart

    I guess my use of the word 'rural' was a little misguided!
    
    Maybe I could characterise the sort of place we're looking for
    as one where building goes on more in two dimensions than three.
    
    Andrew
    

    A lot depends on where you'll be working. Its generally a bad thing to
    have to drive all the way though the city on a commute, so If you going
    to be working, for example near Pearson Airport, Pickering would be a
    poor choice. 
    
    1.5 hours commuting time gives you a fair range unless you're working
    right downtown. Keep in mind that things stay pretty dense east and
    west from Toronto along the lake, it might get more suburban but hardly
    rural unless you also head northeast or northwest. There are several
    areas of Metro Toronto that are practically as quiet and suburban as 
    anything you're going to get in the bedroom communities, Leaside or old
    East York Township (where I live), South Etobicoke for example or if
    you really want rural head for the area around Cambridge or Guelph

    
    Newmarket is more affordable, and still has a small town atmosphere.
    
    It's about as far north as you can go and still commute in reasonably
    well.  As for rural, that's a matter of opinion, but the wildlife
    around it are starting to convince me that this ain't Scarborough.
     
    Yesterday I was stuck in a traffic jam on 404 while they lifted a dead
    moose off the road.  A weeks back a black bear was hit about the same
    spot.  I'm not sure what's next, but the cats need a self-defense
    course.  
    
    Rentals can be had in most outlying spots, few towns don't have
    apartments these days.  Most though go for the vast tracts of
    Mississaga and Brampton in the west, or Oshawa and Pickering, etc in
    the east.
    
    Marshall

	My brother and sister-in-law live in Schomberg, RR3, they think it's
	pretty rural. I think RR3 means "rural" route 3. My brother works in 
	different places in Toronto, fixing apartments, and my sister-in-law 
	works in Toronto General in the middle of Toronto.
	My sister-in-law uses the Go-train, my brother drives his van.

	However, when I last visted, they were in an apartment in Toronto,
	I haven't seen Schomburg.

	Heather	

    For best location in the 'burbs around T.O., it's got to be Oakville. 
    
    Easy access to Downtown and close to the Lake - which in my view (when
    I went from the UK to Canada, and now back in the UK), makes a
    difference.
    
    It's nicer nearer the Lake.
    
    I always used to find it interesting that if you lived West of Yonge
    Street you never ventured or knew much about the City East of Yonge
    Street, and vice versa....
    
    
    CJ

    
    Hi,,
    
    Be patient with me this is my first time writing in notes.
    
    My husband and I really like the City of Toronto last summer, that we
    are interested in moving there, we are so sick of the crime in the
    states, That we would like to raise our daughter (who is 2) in a nice
    area.  We are looking North of Toronto, near the lake.  We are not that
    familiar with the area, Is there anyone who can tell me the price range
    of houses, and some nice "countryish" towns north of Toronto will be 
    appreciated.  I know crime is everywhere but at least Canada has
    a strick gun control, (at least that's what I hear.) I think the U.S.
    has too much freedom and not enough justice!  Well enough with my harsh
    words, any information will be great!
    
    Thanks for your help!
    
    Carrie
    (A parent who is concerned about raising her childs safety)
     

    
    
    If you liked Toronto, You're going to Love Ottawa!

    re: .14
    
    Yes Ottawa .... nice city in the middle of nowhere designed to keep all
    our federal politician and the infrastructure that supports it as far
    away as possible ;-)
    
    
    re: .13
    
    There are many fine communities within Toronto itself and what is known
    as Metropolitan Toronto.  Outside of Toronto, there are a large number
    of cities that are to a large extent bedroom communities of Toronto.
    For example:
    
    West: Mississauga, Oakville 
    East: Pickering, Ajax, Whitby
    North: Richmond Hill, Thornhill
    South:  None unless you like living in a boat on Lake Ontario  8-)
    
    Not sure from your note what you mean by "near the lake north of
    Toronto"??  Toronto sits on the north side of Lake Ontario.  The next
    large lake to the north is Lake Simcoe with communities like Barrie on
    its shores.  It is , a bit of a long commute to Toronto.
    
    Home prices tend to get cheaper the further you get from Toronto and
    have been dropping during the current recession.  It would help if you
    could indicate what size/type of home you're looking for.  I'm most
    familiar with the Mississauga area.  There you can get a 2400 square
    foot new home (4 bedroom, double garage, family room, etc) in the $230K
    Cdn range.  The lot sizes at this price are usually 40x110 feet (not
    large once the house is put on the site.
    
    Hope this helps....

    Upon rereading .13 I realized you're looking for "countryish" towns. 
    You'll need to go further afield then the bedroom communities
    (suburbia).

	If you are looking for a lowered rate of violence, I am not
	sure that Toronto is the place to move to, big city, big city
	crime. [although probably not at the same level as an American
	town]

	As well, in order to live in rural Toronto one must travel
	a brutal distance everyday if you work in downtown Toronto.

	Now Ottawa is different, low crime, clean and you can live rural
	and only have to commute half, to a quarter, as far as you would
	in T.O.

	Charlie

    Before you set your heart on coming North, make sure that you
    will be allowed to ...  check with the Canadian Embassy nearest to
    you if there are any work visas or  whether you must immigrate etc.
    
    Note that usually when on a work visa, only one member of the family
    can get a work visa, unless you both meet the necessary criteria.
    
    Stuart

    
    I, too, would not consider Toronto "safe".  And, as recent events
    have proven in Canada, UK and the US, strict gun laws do not
    necessarily mean less violent crime. People get shot stabbed and
    beaten (and get their noses bitten off too, even in Ottawa!)
    
    I would suspect that only a small fraction of what goes on actually
    makes the papers, but that's off the subject.
    
    Safety is largely made up of common sense, with a dash of luck.
    
    Pat

	The name of guy who had a taste for proboscis was Benoit Robillard,
	haven't I seen his name in this notes conference...I heard he
	is a rowdy on the ice but this is ridiculous. ;-)

	Charlie

    >> And, as recent events
    >>have proven in Canada, UK and the US, strict gun laws do not
    >>necessarily mean less violent crime
    
     I seriously doubt you could get a statistic to prove Canada has as
    much violent crime per capita as the US. Feel free to prove me wrong.
    
    							Derek.
    

    
    Re: Derek..
    
    Not suggesting for a minute that the violent crime rates are
    comparable.
    
    California, New York City, Detroit, Boston and D.C. all have
    stricter firearms legislation than Canada's. Would you walk the
    streets alone in any of these places?  The base noter commented
    on strict gun control, and my response was to be careful about
    equating gun control to low crime rates. It's ALOT more complicated
    than that. Perhaps our prisons are more comfortable, so criminals
    like to stay longer 8*).
    
    
    Heck, my wife won't even walk from the local school to home (about
    3 blocks) after dark..and this is in Kanata. A person was recently
    stabbed in the back while making a night deposit at the Hazeldean
    Mall. We regularly (monthly) get "visitors" in our backyard, which
    is gated and hedged. Up to now, the infrared triggered lights have
    scared them off, but what if it's more than kids someday?
    
    
    Last year I personally caught someone in my garage, believe me
    both of us were VERY surprised. Turned out he was a 40 year old
    derelict on welfare looking to supplement his income from what
    he could scrounge off my workbench. He had a long list of unanswered
    B&E charges from Alberta and B.C., but the local OPP said it wasn't
    worth shipping him back to face them, so they gave him a ticket for
    trespassing and let him go. Before I phoned the cops, he told me he
    was a law student...ya sure.
    
    Even now, we have a mysterious white van circling our neighborhoods
    looking for young children.
    
    I just wanted to make sure the base noter moved to Canada for the 
    right reasons. We can always use more taxpayers.
    
    Pat 

    POLAR::ROBINSONP
    
    >>California, New York City, Detroit, Boston and D.C. all have strict
    >>gun laws.
    
     I see this one in SOAPBOX all the time, I won't watse my electrons
    trying to explain to the gun loving Americans that there are sooooo
    many guns available in the US that they are beyond solving the problem
    with "anti-gun laws". They seem to assume that people are not able to
    freely go to an area that has no such restrictions, get a gun, and go
    back to the city/state with the anti-gun laws. So they state that gun
    laws don't work. I suggest it is their logic processors that are not
    working. If you already have guns everywhere, then stopping additional
    guns is not going to help alot. But hey, to them it is a right to shoot
    the guy trying to steal your car, even though there is no death penalty
    for car theft.
    
    							Derek.
    

    Derek:
    
    Uh, um...I think we agree. Except maybe for the gun loving Americans
    part. Canada has comparable per capita gun ownership rates to the US,
    unfortunately it's not possible to compare per capita criminal
    gun ownership rates. They just won't come forward and be counted,
    just as the knife wielding ones won't either. Have you ever read
    about the prohibition? Then you know how sucessfully inanimate
    objects can be controlled, and how behaviors will adjust to
    compensate. I think alot of tax money is spent on enforcing things
    that cannot be controlled (did someone mention cigarettes?)
    
    Pat

    |          <<< Note 747.23 by KAOFS::D_STREET "Virtue is relative." >>>
    |
    |     I see this one in SOAPBOX all the time, I won't watse my electrons
    |    trying to explain to the gun loving Americans that there are sooooo

    I'd be more worried about wasting neurons if I were you.

    Glenn

    In response to the comment about crime rates in the US of A and Canada,
    I have collected some replies from Note # 198.  Although the Macleans
    article is based on research done about 6 years ago, I doubt much has
    changed when comparing both countries.
    
    Cheers,
    Pat
    
                  <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< True North Strong & Free >-
================================================================================
Note 198.20          Canada as 51st U.S. state - Aye or Nay?            20 of 68
KAOM25::RUSHTON "Inspired lunacy"                   112 lines  28-JUN-1989 10:00
                       -< Right from the horse's mouth! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Since the base note has stirred up quite a bit of interest and
verbiage on this subject, I thought that I might as well pick up a copy of the
'offending' magazine.  It's the July 3, 1989 edition of Maclean's and the
entire copy is devoted to 'a portrait of two nations'.  Also, to try and
answer an earlier query about the actual questions posed in the poll, I've
pulled the following from the magazine:

*******************************************************************************
	1000 Canadians and 1000 Americans were polled, the results are accurate
to within 3.3 percentage points 19 times out of 20.

	"Would you strongly favor, favor, oppose or strongly oppose Canada
	 becoming the 51st state of the United States with full congressional
	 representation and rights of American citizenship?"

					Canada           United States

		Strongly oppose          54%                  10%
		Oppose			 31%		      22%
		Favor			 12%		      54%
		Strongly favor		  2%                  12%
		No opinion		  1%                   3%
*******************************************************************************

	Here are some additional statistics that may be of interest:


		(To Canadians)Which one of these words, in your view best
		describes the ideal Canadian?

			Tolerant 38%
			Independant-minded 27%
			Peaceful 26%
			Aggressive 3%
			Clean 3%
			Sexy 1%
			No opinion 1%

	The same question was posed to Americans to describe the ideal
American with the following results:

			Independant-minded 52%
			Tolerant 21%
			Aggressive 12%
			Peaceful 12%
			Clean 3%
			Sexy 1%
			No opinion 1%

	To outsiders, the distinctions between Canadians and Americans often
appear so subtle as to be almost meaningless.  But the following comparisons
show that while there are numerous similarities between the two countries,
there are also some startling differences:

		       The Justice System

	Crime Rates
					Canada            United States
	(per 100,000 population)
	
	Homicide                          2.5                   8.3
	Violent sexual crime     	  5.3		       37.4
	Burglary		      1,245.1		    1,329.6
	Robbery				 87.9		      212.7
	Motor vehicle theft	        399.7		      529.4

			******************************
	Law enforcement
					Canada            United States

	Number of police per	          2		         2.1
	100,000 population

	% of police assaulted            11		        16.8

	Police officers killed            3			73
	in line of duty in 1987

	Drug arrests in 1987		169		       385
	(per 100,000 population)

			*********************************

	Firearms
					Canada		  United States

	Homicides by firearms		  31.2                  59.1
	(as % of total homicides)

	Homicides by handgun		   8.9		        43.7
	(as % of total homicides)

	Homicides by rifle		   9.7			 4.3
	(as % of total homicides)

	Homicides by shotgun		   7.2			 6.1
	(as % of total homicides)

	Estimated number of guns	no estimate		200 million
	in the country					(incl. 60 million
							 handguns)

	Number of registered		923,125		    no registration
	restricted weapons

 *****************************************************************************
              <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< True North Strong & Free >-
================================================================================
Note 198.23          Canada as 51st U.S. state - Aye or Nay?            23 of 68
KAOM25::TOMKINS "This MIND left blank INTENTIONALLY" 10 lines  28-JUN-1989 16:40
              -< Stats are fun, eh? What's your interpretation? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     According to Mr. Rushton, Canada's 4th largest city is Los Angeles.
     Apparently more than 1 million Canadians call LA their home.
    
     Probably the reason the rifle homicide percentage is higher here
    in Canada, than in the US is that we don't arm our citizens with
    Handguns (A weapon of convenience for settling arguments). I too
    would think twice about running down the street with Mr. Rifle in
    hand, it's so obvious, I'd probably get nicked. On the other hand,
    if I owned a Handgun that was under my shirt, well, Blow him away
    Johny.
              <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< True North Strong & Free >-
================================================================================
Note 198.24          Canada as 51st U.S. state - Aye or Nay?            24 of 68
KAOM25::RUSHTON "Inspired lunacy"                    49 lines  28-JUN-1989 17:36
                        -< More from the horse's mouth >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Well, furry creatures, here are a few more to warm the cockles:

	"Do you own a handgun?"
		Canada             United States
	Yes       3%			24%
	No	 97%			75%


	"Would you send your children to the other country to attend 
	 university?"
		Canada		   United States
	Yes	  41%		        58%
	No	  58%			39%



	Comments about Canada from well-known Americans:

	"I don't even know what street Canada is on."  - Al Capone

	"Take Canada, and wipe out her commerce."  - President Ulysses S. Grant

	"...that great Republic of Canada."  - repeated twice by President
					       Dwight Eisenhower

	**********************************************************

	"Would you like to live in the other country?"
		Canadians		Americans	
	Yes	  27%			     42%
	No	  73%			     56%
	No opinion			      2%

	***********************************************************
	Quotes from Allan Fotheringham:
		"Americans think medicare is a socialist menace.  Canadians
		 think the lack of an American medicare system is barbaric."

		"Canadians think that American beer is lemonade.  Americans
		 think that our drinking laws came from Ulan Bator.  Both are
		 right."

		"Americans think that professional hockey is a vulgar form
		 of roller derby, demeaned by violence.  Canadians point out
		 that a dozen or so American high school football players die
		 in action each year whereas in the history of the National
		 Hockey League only one man, Bill Masterton, has ever been
		 killed."

              <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< True North Strong & Free >-
================================================================================
Note 198.26          Canada as 51st U.S. state - Aye or Nay?            26 of 68
GERBIL::BOHLIG                                       12 lines  19-JUL-1989 13:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    The Maclean's poll issue is quite interesting reading. 
    
    Having lived in both countries, I saw a lot of truth in the statistics.
    Sure the numbers may be off here and there but the attitudes reflected
    seem genuine. 

    I think the best quote in the magazine is from Margaret Atwood,
    she said that the 49th parallel is not the world's longest undefended
    border but rather "the world's longest one-way mirror."
    
    Mike. 
              <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< True North Strong & Free >-
================================================================================
Note 198.38          Canada as 51st U.S. state - Aye or Nay?            38 of 68
MURP::HINXMAN "Figments of a deranged imagination"   18 lines  26-JUL-1989 17:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Re .37

> So, let me ask this:  IS Canada ALREADY the 51st state?  If not, what did I 
> fail to observe during my visit?  When I return to Canada in the future 

	Well, I'm not a Canadian either, but the most obvious answer must
	be the streets were safer. Then there was the customs man checking
	that you were not bringing in any firearms, as there is gun control
	in Canada.
	The murder rate for Canada is much (an order of magnitude?) lower
	than that for the U.S.
	Another cultural difference, which I think was mentioned earlier in
	this note is the Canadian perception that universal health care is a
	good thing.
	Is Canadian culture different? Well, they have three major political
	parties, all to the left of the U.S. Democrats.

	Tony

    
    Re: Firearms ownership..
    
    My comments were drawn from David B. Kopel's "the Samurai, The
    Mountie and the Cowboy: Should America adopt the Gun Controls of other
    Democracies" Prometheus Books,1992.
    
    The other Pat