Conference kaosws::canada

	As with everything, there is correct way and a fun way...but
	like being the PM of this country who would want to be
	the moderator of its notes conference.

	Charlie

    If you don't like teh moderation of this conference ...
    
    You have three options ...
    
    	a) don't participate ...
    	b) start your own conference ...
    	c) appeal to another modlerator
    
    And your specific complaints have been forwarded to a co-moderator
    for review ... so I  have initiated option 3 for for you already. 
    
    Stuart

    transfer the moderator to Sarnia???
    

    He keeps visiting Canada Customs in Sarnia ... nice people ...
    
    

    In case anyone was wondering this would be a good place for some Grand
    Canalizing...
    
    Take it away Korff...
    
    Now where was I, oh eah, gotta get back to putting away the snow bags
    for the summer. 

    RE. moving the moderation responsibility for this file to Sarnia:
    
    I knew it was coming, and that at some point Sarnia would be called in
    to rescue this conference.
    No doubt that that our Sarnia  office is the epitome of the art of
    combining free speach with the utmost respect of diversity.
    We value our differences and do not hesitate to claim them loud and
    clear. But really, although we feel honored, we will have to decline as
    more mercantile activities are presently occupying most of our time.
    You people will have to learn to behave of else...

    so let me see... I think the commands are
    
    
    NOTES> DELETE ENTRY CANADA
    NOTES> ADD ENTRY CANADA_SOAPBOX/FILE=?????
    
    
    							Derek

    As I have said "face-to-face" with one of the moderators of this
    conference, I think the moderators should be ashamed of banning
    subjects and should resign.  With the exception of disclosing
    proprietery information, I know of no conference that bans subjects
    that are clearly within the context of the conference.  Discussing
    nationalism and langauage is clearly within the context of this
    conference and does not contravene any information security standards.
    
    Nothing has been said in this conference that has not been said in
    similar fashion in many other conferences.  Certainly we should all
    stay away from attacking individuals, however the level of censorship
    in this conference is unwarranted.
    
    To the moderators, please clearly explain by what authourity you
    believe you can forbid the discussion of certain subjects.
    
    Regards,
    
    Garry
    
    other conferences 

    The people who cannot discuss the issues and stray into ad-hominem
    arguments are those who should bear the responsibility for these
    actions ... 
    
    There are many confernces where notes are routinely write-locked and
    notes deleted and subjects banned.  And just because confrences such 
    as SOAPBOX routinely violate just about every corporate policy with 
    regard to electronic communication does not make it right for this 
    conference and your two moderators intend to keep it that way.
    
    Now, if you, and others would like to start a Canadian Soapbox, you
    are perfectly free to do so.  You require a host VMS system to host
    the conference ... you require permission of the system manager to
    host the conference ... and you require 1 or more moderators to keep
    the rules of the conference.  The moderators are perfectly free to
    control the subject matter of the conference, as long as they ensure
    that the conference contents are within the rules of P&P and that
    they act within P&P.  The system manager is often a moderator, but not
    always, and doesn't have to be.  The new conference is then totally in 
    your hands.
    
    Regarding the rules of this conference, please re-read the introductory
    note ... it defines very clearly the conditions under which this
    decision was taken.  Note that these rules are not unique to this
    conference ... they can be found in numerous other conferences.
    
    Stuart

    I would recommend anyone complaining here, and anyone considering
    setting up a new notes conference, to read Orangebook Section 6.54
    "Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and Networks.
    
    The moderators of any conference are there to ensure that the
    conference contents do not require application of Section 6.21
    
    Stuart

    The conditions we moderators work under are spelled out quite clearly
    in the company's P&P policy. The memo posted here in 535.6 places the 
    responsibility for upholding these squarely on our shoulders. There are
    conferences where no moderator interference is the culture, these
    moderators are placing their careers and the company at risk with this
    policy and they know it. There are also conferences where much more
    interference goes on but it's not seen or talked about because that's
    the culture there. 
    
    We didn't introduce this restriction lightly, we've gone to extra
    effort to try to make this work within the rules for more than a year
    and it's simply not happening. Because few of you ever see the worst
    stuff that has to be pulled it looks like were being arbitrary. 
    
    We're restricted by our own policies from going into detail about some
    of the things that influenced us to make this difficult decision in
    this forum, but if you're really concerned give one of a call and we
    can try to explain it.
    
    Frankly I don't see a high degree of censorship here, there have been
    a number of incidents wrapped around one very difficult subject area,
    one exhortation not to use our customer's company names anymore in one
    of the humourous notes and a plea to reduce the Grand Canal and Sarnia
    sillinest to the point where it will remain funny rather than become
    tired and irritating since we took over. 

    Well, if you do not like things the way they are, we can just do the
    following....
    
    Set/moderator=complainer  
    
    Then the complainer takes the heat for the abuse of the notes file and
    the name calling.  
    
    8-)
    
    Dave
    Thanks MODS, I like the conference.
    
    

Y'all:

Isn't the title of this conference "true north strong and free"?  I am not a 
regular contributor, but I read regularly.  I fail to see what is wrong with 
Garry's questions as outlined in 678.0.  If issues such as Garry's can't be 
discussed in this conference, than why bother wasting valuable disk space for 
this forum.....

>================================================================================
>Note 678.0             Response to UN decision re: Canada?               1 reply
>KAOFS::LOCKYER "NO! (Tact Is For Weenies!!)"         12 lines   9-APR-1993 00:18
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    What are the consequences of a United Nations decision within Canada? 
    For example, the UN recently determined that Quebec's sign law violates
>    the UN's freedom of expression provision.
>    
>    What must Canada do as a result of such a determination or can it be
>    ignored with no consequence?  Can the determination be appealed?
>    
>    What are the facts or your opinion?
>    
>    Regards,
>    
>    Garry
>================================================================================
>Note 678.1             Response to UN decision re: Canada?                1 of 1
>CSC32::S_BROOK "I just passed myself going in the ot" 5 lines   9-APR-1993 08:45
>                               -< Write locked >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    This note is write locked in accordance with the moderators' decision
>    that topics related to Nationalism and Language Laws are no longer
>    permitted in this conference.
    
    
If those are to be the rules, then lets start a new conference.  Book burnings 
will start at CTH 17:00 tomorrow.

Fred

    In Qu�bec we had a similar "period", it was called "La grande
    noirceur", this period was the time Maurice Duplessis ruled the
    province and ALL the medias.  He imposed his views and the views of his
    party on the whole population until "La r�volution culturelle"
    overthrew his regime.
    
    Jean
    

    Jean, are your comments related to the moderators' unwarranted ban on the 
    discussion of language and nationalism, or to the UN's recent 
    (unmentionable) decision?
    
    Regards,
    
    Garry

    What does it take to make people realize that Digital's notes
    conferences are not forums for free speech?  It is very clearly
    defined in P&P under the "Proper Uses for Digital Computers"
    section.
    
    As long as notes such as these keep appearing, it becomes very
    clear that people here have NOT read the appropriate P&P, let alone
    the conference rules.
    
    Before anyone has the audacity to post anymore of these "test the 
    moderator" notes, please go read the appropriate sections ... read
    also the Nastygrams on the Easynet message in Livewire and then the
    conference rules.
    
    Stuart
    

	Well, I've had enough...remove entry canada....

    $SET OPINION/PERSONAL ON
    
    I've kept quiet long enough to weigh both sides of the issue(s) in my
    own mind re: recent moderator action.
    
    While this is a Digital Notes File, and therefore Digital property and
    subject to Policies and Procedures, it also involves the one element
    that is always variable: PEOPLE.
    
    By the very nature of the title, CANADA, I believe it needs to be a
    forum for all to air and discuss anything related to this country.
    
    It's a shame to see our government spending money on commercials that
    say "If we're ever going to understand each other, we need to talk",
    and then censoring that very opportunity to "talk" here.
    
    Let's consider this...
    
    $SET OPINION/PERSONAL OFF
    
    Otto.

    Ahhh,


    Nice to be home. Mr Moderator, it seems to me, you (by way of your
    moderator privs) have decidedly moulded this conference to your
    politically correct way of thinking.  I will have to reread the P&Ps
    over again carefully, and If I believe that I have not broken the
    rules, then I will continue to enter (or re-enter) a note I believe
    fit. Your self contained 'Kangaroo court' actions have been impressive
    to say the least.

    	
    
    	Mike

    Re Gary
    
    	My response was to the recent decision made to the contens of this
    note file.
    
    	As to the recent UN decision, I just wonder why we pay for these
    people, there are more pressing issues involving human life which are
    not even dealt by these "ambassadors".  War is raging in many parts of
    the world yet they take time to consider the poor anglo who can not put
    an english sign in Qu�bec (not quite true but... this is the perception
    of non residents).
    
    Jean
    
    
    

    Jean,
    
    Thanks for the clarification.
    
    Regards,
    
    Garry

    re .17
    
    I heard Charlie is heading over to the Brewer's notesfile via the Grand
    Canal.
    Lets give him a big Whirly Twirly SALUTE.
    
    Shawn

    Hey Mike, nice note.  One blast from you and a few minutes later, the
    silly language and nationalism ban is "relaxed"!  Wish you had
    displayed your moderator skills earlier.  But, in the end, I don't
    think it matters as the moderators aren't really listening - we ask for
    less/better moderation and we get "screens and screens" of more rules...
    
    When will they learn it's not the rules, it the poor application of the 
    rules that's the problem?
    
    Lockyer

    You don't think we aren't listening huh ?
    
    The relaxation was decided long before Mike's note. f.y.i.
    
    You talk about screens and screens of more rules ... there are no
    additional rules.  The poor application was maybe true ... the
    problem is that to allow for good discussion of controversial
    subjects, the rules have to be streched a bit.  Then when someone
    streches the limits too far, the crackdown looks like the mods are
    being biassed or unfair, supporting one side of an argument or
    the other ...
    
    So, now, it's simple ... notes obey p&p ... they stay ... they
    don't and they get hidden.  Too many hidings and the topic is
    write locked.
    
    Personal attacks got the conference into this mess ... bitching
    about it won't fix it ... 
    
    Stuart

    Seeing as how this notesfile is all about things Canadian, and rules
    seem to be sprouting out all over(much as the Canadian spring is), how 
    about a rule like:
    
    To be a moderator in the Canada notesfile, any moderator(s) must have
    both feet planted firmly on Canadian soil during their reign.
    
    I know, this notesfile(unlike our country) isn't a democracy, and my
    inputs regarding the direction of the conference don't mean a whit, but I
    thought I'd float the proverbial balloon and see what type of informed 
    discussion this would raise.
    
    Shawn
                    

    You are a very brave man Shawn.
    
    You could have really impressed me by mentioning the Grand Canal in
    some way, which is of course a very sensitive issue now days.
    
    Brace yourself for incoming wet blankets!
    
    Glenn

    One of your moderators most certainly has his feet and the rest of
    himself in Canada, the other is currently in Canada too.  (If I'd
    been doing this from a Canadian node you wouldn't have known the
    difference!)
    
    Anyway, it is a reasonable and valid question, and I asked it of
    myself, and others, and came to the conclusion that it didn't really 
    matter WHERE the moderator was.  After all, this is a worldwide network 
    and there are many conferences with mods in other places.  After all,
    a moderator's role isn't really defined by conference subject matter;
    it is defined by P&P.
    
    At one time, there was only one mod for this conference ... which I
    took on (foolhardily maybe ...) and at that time I was in Hull.  I
    was concerned and thought we needed one more mod (two additional
    mods would be overkill for the activity in here).  When the possibility
    of the transfer to CXO came up, I decided that to meet this very
    question of an "in Canada" mod, it was definitely time to look for
    an additional mod.  Advertised in here, got an applicant and that's
    we are now.
    
    Yes, I am working in the USA (or at least will be), but that certainly
    doesn't mean that I'm going to give up being a Canadian.  Grief, I was
    in England for 14 years as a child, and was determined to return to
    Canada, which I did, and certainly at some time in the future, I expect
    to return ... whether it's next year or 5 years from now.  After all,
    I've got to come back to sail the full length of the completed Grand
    Canal.
    
    Stuart

    
    If you guys are so concerned about the moderatorship, start your own
    notesfile.  Maybe you could put it on a floating ____ canal boat ann call it 
    the Grand_Notes_File.  Ah, pirate noting....  
    
    At the present rate Digital is 'changing' it won't take much for us to 
    lose employee interest noting completely.  Don't push it.  To me it's
    the last thing that separates Digital from the other outfits.
    
    Here's a vote for the present crew.  It's not always easy to be a
    moderator.  
    
    Marshall Who_is_tired_of_Seeing_his_conferences_turn_into_barfights
    
    
     

    Stuart, perhaps as you sail the length of Canada's famed Grand Canal
    you can keep a diary and then perhaps publish your memoirs in this
    conference! I am looking forward to hearing about your adventures of
    your trek across Canada and Alberta on the most monumental feet of human
    engineering, the Grand Canal.
    
    Glenn

   << "Anyway, it is a reasonable and valid question, and I asked it of
    <<myself..."
    
    Ah, arguing with himself, but do you lose?  ::S_BROOKS has been known
    to throw his hat on the ground...and miss!!

>    Ah, arguing with himself, but do you lose?  ::S_BROOKS has been known
>    to throw his hat on the ground...and miss!!

::S_BROOKS   ???  Who is this person ? 

Never heard of him !

Do I lose arguments with myself ?  Yeah ... frequently! :-)

Stuart  (CSC32::S_BROOK)