Conference kaosws::canada

C'est facile,

 Dans la province de Quebec nous parlons francais.

In the other parts of canada, we are bilingual. 
    
That's what the government has decided, personally i prefer italiano.
    
    -carmelo

    When we visited Montreal, we ate in a Chinese resturant. The matre
    d greeted us in French, English, Mandrin (dialect of Chinese) and
    Catonese (another dialect of Chinese).
    
    Being Chinese, I replied in cantonese and had a very delightful
    evening talking to a fellow country man. 
    
    /cal

    In the southern part of Nova Scotia(Yarmouth County) it is also bilingual.
    
    In the town of Yarmouth I would guess that 50% of the people can speak
    both French and English. The people outside the town limits are
    bilingual. At one time(late 40's) only English was taught as the main
    language and French was an elective(in Yarmouth school district) Even now
    when my relatives overhear a conversation in "mainland Canadian french" 
    they typically remark "their speaking the good french"
    
    Canuck... 

      Any country seen from a distance falls prey to stereotyping.  One 
stereotype of Canada is it's always cold.  Another is that everybody has 
a Franco mother and and Anglo father, and slips back and forth between 
languages with ease. 

      I guess that the debate that caused the base note was probably
between someone who believed this stereotype, and somebody that knows it
"don't work that way"... If you ask somebody on the street in Toronto
"where's the city hall" in French, you will be looking for it a long
time.  Better try Italian or Chinese if you really want to get there...
(Toronto has more Italians than any other city in the world except
Rome!) 

      The rest of Canada works much the same, it all depends on who 
migrated to the locality and sent for all their relatives.  There are 
Dutch communities, Ukrainian, German, Jamaican, Portuguese, and lots
more.  The only place where language is really legislated is Quebec (as
well as in the federal government and related crown corporations)  In
Quebec, things have to be in French; fed gov't is bilingual.  Street 
signs in Toronto's chinatown are in Chinese and English, many store 
signs are in Chinese only... in Quebec signs legally must be French
ONLY!  Naturally, this outrageous law has provoked civil disobedience in
many parts of the province... 

      The nice thing about the French-ness in Canada is we have a
province that is truly different culture that is fun to experience -- a 
change from the rest of North America.  The bad thing is this 
bilingualism is a mess -- a monstrous waste of money and time, 
translating & printing everything in two languages, denying good people
who don't speak French federal public service jobs, etc.  It's a joke
that the Quebec politicos want to be able to speak French in Ontario,
but don't want to return the favour in Quebec.  

    re .0 , .4
    
    The official language of Canada is FRENCH AND ENGLISH as Richard
    correctly pointed out.  That is to say all federal government
    departments,agencies and crown corporations must conduct their business
    in both official languages and SERVE the publics' language preference.
    For example, Air Canada states that it is proud to serve you in
    either of the official languages of Canada.
    
    Quebec is officially a unilingual province as are the other 8
    provinces. Only New Brunswick is officially bilingual; French and
    English.  When a provincial government states its official language
    policy, it in fact refers to the language in which it deals with
    the public.  Therefore the province of Quebec is NOT OBLIGED to
    correspond with you in English.  The same is true in Manitoba. A
    man contested a parking ticket on the grounds that it was not in
    French. The court ruled that the municipality did not have to provide
    services in French and therefore the man had to pay the ticket.
    
    As for stereotypes, don't you know that the cold artic air mass
    really comes from Alaska!
    
    Carol
    

    As an ex-Montrealer I feel fairly qualified to speak for that area.
    The language debate is still VERY hotly contended there.  Yes, French
    is the official language, but most people do fluently coverse in
    both.  It is amazing to see how most can switch back in forth with
    ease in both.  So re: .4, in this case, it is NOT a stereotype.
    
    Problems have arisen, where the French government has insisted in
    changing English street signs to French, as for example, Montreal's
    famous smoked meat was renamed to boeuf fumee, but even the french
    speaking people still used the old english name.  Even though
    shop signs are required to be in French, many people have been defying
    this and posting signs in both.  I think there was some debate recently
    in the government to make both languages acceptable on signs, but
    I don't know the outcome of this.  The only area where this is
    different is where I use to live in Westmount, which everything
    is predominantly in English, and I think it has the highest rate
    of anglophones in the province.
    
    I think that the influence of the P.Q. is dying down (hopefully).
    Because of the French government's tight language control (and I'm
    sure of many other things as well), big businesses moved elsewhere.
    
    Most people will probably address you first in French, but if they
    see you having problems, they will switch to English, or get someone
    who can to help.
    
    Also, when I traveled to N.B., NS. and PEI I noticed many signs
    in French and also people who spoke it.  I also thought that someone
    said during the Olympics that Alberta was also bilingual province.
    Is this true?
    

    I was in Quebec City a few weeks ago (after 18 years away), and
    I noticed alot of people speaking English.  Of course, it was during
    the Carnaval and the city was loaded with tourists from all over
    the country.  However, I noticed that alot of French people started
    speaking English to me when I showed problems with understanding
    them.  Several made a good effort even when their English was not
    too strong.
    
    
    Benson in Boston
    

    I was in Sherbrooke, Quebec one weekend recently and I noticed that
    alot of the people were speaking English rather than French.  I
    naturally assumed that since the official language of the province
    was French that people would speak that primarily.  Also there was
    hardly any trace of French accent when they spoke.  The people I
    met were young between 18 and 25 so maybe the younger people are
    using French to a lessor extent these days.  Anybody agree or disagree?
    It was my first time in Canada and I was really impressed!  Its
    a beautiful country.  Hopefully I'll be back soon and make many
    more trips in the future.
    
    Bryan

    re .8
    
    	That part of the Eastern Townships of Quebec has traditionally
    been English ever since I can remember. Though now pretty much
    bilingual, there are a lot of English families around there. It's
    also very close to the border which is also another reason for the
    English being so widely spoken. If you had gone futher north, you
    would have noticed a big difference.
    
    Glenn (Who used to live in the Eastern Townships)

    Sherbrooke and many towns around it were originally
    founded by English speaking settlers, thus you'll
    find it to be bilingual.
    
    Also, after the civil war, many wealthy confederates
    from southern US settled around Quebec's Eastern Townships,
    building great mansions around its many lakes, spreading
    more English settlers into that region.
    
    -george

  I just read two articles in the U.S. English newsletter about the language
issue in Quebec province. U.S. English is promoting U.S. and state laws or
constitutional amendments to make English the official language of the U.S.
They also favor designating the most commonly used language as the official
language, or one of two official languages, of countries such as Canada. So
they are opposed to the French-only policy of Quebec. But what I read disturbed
me. The article said that last December the police ordered a shopkeeper to take
down a "Merry Christmas" sign because it violated the law requiring all signs
to be in French only. It said the law also prohibits use of English between
employees in workplaces such as fast-food restaurants. 
  This appears to contradict the belief commonly held by Americans that they
can easily get by in Quebec province without knowing French. In 3 weeks I am
going to a convention in Montreal that will draw over 500 Americans. I assume
they can handle the airport, transport, and convention hotel without knowing
French, but many of them are hoping to get off the beaten tourist path. They
won't have any trouble knowing that 'rue' means 'street' and 'gare' means
'station' but what if they want to go shopping? Is there any provision in the
French-sign law to allow English signs under the French ones in areas frequented
by American toruists? Are English restaurants allowed to use English menus in
addition to French ones? 
  I am also concerned about the fact that the language issue gets so little
coverage in the American press. I knew that French was the 'official' language
of Quebec province but I had no idea the language laws were so stringent.

< Note 52.11 by PLDVAX::MORRISON "Bob M. LMO2/P41 296-5357" >
           -< French-only law in Quebec Prov. >-

   
	No special cause for concern, Montreal still advertises heavily 
for US tourists... and the shopkeepers are not about to needlessly
antagonize anybody coming to leave some money in the till.

	As far as the "man on the street" attitude, my impression is 
that it is not any harder now getting by with English than ever in
Montreal.  Some of the radicals who believed "the French language was
doomed" might be friendlier, now that provincial policy protects
("overprotects") it.  But you might still run into one of the boneheads
who won't talk English although they may speak it well.  Don't tell them 
how the "US English group" doesn't approve of Quebec's policies ;-).

	The only thing is the lack of English signs, but that isn't 
usually a problem.  It's still one of the most fun cities in the world,
even for anglophones. 

	The English in Montreal recently rebelled themselves, staging 
demonstrations and making the news.  A group made a statemtent that the
Anglophones were being systematically "humiliated" by provincial
language policy etc. Seems to have died down lately, but it proved that
they are not just going to roll over and die... the minority within the
minority, this should be an interesting test for Quebec... 

        I've lived outside Quebec for so many years now that during my
        last trip in Montreal, I'd speak English, people would reply
        in French, or I'd start in French, and they'd answer in English.

        It's not confusing; it's fun.  Pretty much all visitors I know,
        from the US, here or Europe enjoy the place and have a good
        time.  But you always meet the one in a hundred that have a
        problem, that are shocked because some people in the place 
        don't speak his/her tongue.  You have about the same 1 in a 100
        (presumably the same) with the same problem with Italians speaking
        Italian in Italy, Japanese speaking Japanese in Japan, etc.
        
        I, like the U.S. English group and many others, would like 
        everyone in the whole wild world to speak my native tongue, but 
        I don't think that that's realitic.  Anyways, I always had much 
        more fun travelling and trying to meet and understand people on 
        their own ground, language, customs, etc.
        
        (And trying to learn some more Cantonese for the next business 
        trip in Hong-Kong.)
       
        Bon voyage au Quebec.
                 

I think that every Canadian should be required to learn both English and French 
in school, and be strongly encouraged to learn Spanish.  Similarly, I think 
U.S. citizens should be required to learn English and Spanish, with a strong 
encouragement to learn French.

I can't speak for Canada, but here in the U.S., a significant part of the 
population will be Spanish-speaking by the year 2000.  I believe learning the 
alternate languages of one's country and one's nearest neighbors is a 
responsible thing to do.

And there's a couple of side benefits:  These days, it isn't "cool" to study 
grammar much anymore.  I didn't REALLY learn English grammar until I studied 
Spanish.  Then I HAD to learn grammar so I could learn how that language 
worked.  It was then easy to apply those principles to my native English.  

Also, whether you're from the U.S. or Canada, it would be easy to tranfer 
learning between French and Spanish.  They are both Romance Langauges, and many 
people who know one can at least read the other.  (You have to be taught the 
spelling rules to write it, and pronunciation rules to speak it).

And, I don't know that much about <<the Canadian Personality>>, but I think we 
U.S. people tend to be a little bit egocentric (as far as our country goes).  
Learning another language forces you to learn about the culture from which it 
came.  When you read the literature, etc., you have to think in their terms (or 
at least "experience" their perspective), which gives you a greater 
appreciation for other cultures.

Russ Schwartz.

>    U.S. citizens should be required to learn English and Spanish, with a strong 
>encouragement to learn French.

>I can't speak for Canada, but here in the U.S., a significant part of the 
>population will be Spanish-speaking by the year 2000.  I believe learning the 
>alternate languages of one's country and one's nearest neighbors is a 
>responsible thing to do.

Wait a minute.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't English and French
    the *official* national languages.  The US apparently does not have
    an *official* national language, but tell me how in the hell it
    is going to do an Arkansas farmer a bit of good to be *required*
    to know Spanish.  The only places where Spanish is used frequently
    is in the NY metro area, California, and Florida.
    
    There is a difference between children learning the official national
    language(s), and children being forced to learn another language
    (Spanish) just because it is used in some parts of the country.
    
    Because I live in Los Angeles, should my children have to learn Chinese
    if I live in Chinatown, and Korea in Koreatown?  The national (whether
    official or not) language of the US is English, and it should be
    the responsibility of every US resident to know it.
    
    Ashley (Who speaks French and is learning Spanish, because I want
    to, not because it is my responsibility)

re: .15

Please read my note (.14).  I think I clearly stated why I thought learning 
these languages should be mandatory.  Yes, the Arkansas farmer will probably 
never have anyone to speak Spanish with.  I'm a Hoosier myself, and have only 
had such an opportunity when I took a vacation in Arizona.  I *SAID* it should 
be mandatory in order to better appreciate other cultures, and to gain a better 
understanding of English grammar.

Russ.

    re .15     
               
    and were have I heard this before...?
                                                    
    If you don't have it you cannot use it when you want it!!!        
                 
                 
    Bob (who grew up in Regina and took french for 1 year of public
    school, 4 years of high school, and 1 year of U., and can count
    to 10 in french, and now lives in Ottawa and wishes that he could
    NOW speak and understand french, but can not!!!)
    

	The only way to learn a language is to immerse oneself in it. I believe 
that here in Canada there are exchange programs by which one can become part of 
a French Canadian family for the summer. This is the only way to really learn a 
language as far as I'm concerned. I myself am bilingual but because I function 
so much in English, I find I'm losing the fluidity and control of the French 
language I once had. A couple of weeks of visiting some relatives on the North 
Shore of Quebec would do wonders though.
	What I'm basically saying is that you'll never learn another language in
a classroom copying notes from a blackboard. I've met a lot of Anglophones 
who've learned French that way, they would have been better off taking remedial 
sandbox or basketweaving. So much time is spent "conjugating" and no time is 
spent "comprehending".

Glenn Le fils de Richard

    ...besides...
    
    The French that I learned in 1st and 2nd grades in Quebec are ALOT
    different from the French that I learned in the 5th and 6th grades
    in Boston.  Maybe that's why I took German in high school :-)
    

        A fairly good, and certainly official, source of answers for 
        George's concerns in the base note is the publication from 
        External Affairs titled "The French fact in Canada", reference 
        series No. 65.  
        
        In english, 21 pages, sections are "Historical Background",
        "Demographics", "The Provinces", "The Federal Government Strides
        Forward", "Communications - Mirroring a Country's Culture", and
        "International Scene". 

        Can be obtained from all Canadian embassies, high commissions
        and consular offices, as well as from the Department ofExternal
        Affairs, Ottawa, Canada K1A 0G2.
                
        I'd summarize, but I don't entirely agree with the contents,
        and any summary is always biased anyways  :-).
        

re: .14 (Russ)

Sorry, Russ, but I can't agree with all of your reasoning.

.14>I can't speak for Canada, but here in the U.S., a significant part of the 
.14>population will be Spanish-speaking by the year 2000.  

Unfortunately, this may be true.  But rather than English-speaking people be
required to learn Spanish or any other foreign language, non-English-speaking
people - in a country where English is the predominant language - should be
required to learn English.  I don't want my tax dollars going toward a
school system that has only Spanish-speaking people enrolled because they
can't or won't learn English.  (I can imagine moving to another country where
English is not a common language nor taught in school, and requesting that my
children be taught English in school because it is their native tongue.  HA!,
they'd scoff.)

Besides, having more than one "official" language only serves to confuse
people.

Kip

> But rather than English-speaking people be
> required to learn Spanish or any other foreign language, non-English-speaking
> people - in a country where English is the predominant language - should be
> required to learn English.

I doubt the point made in that note was that all English-speaking people 
in the U.S. should be forced to learn Spanish.  I think it meant that
it'd be nice if the two 'groups' related to each other.  Idealistic.
        
I don't see why it has to be Spanish EXCLUSIVE OR English.  Yes of 
course English should and will remain the primary language, but that's 
no reason not to broaden one's scope.
        
After I mastered my mother tongue (I think :-)), I was keen to learn
and use English in Quebec and elsewhere, as it'd help me understand
and relate to a large portion of people in and surrounding my
French-Canadian context.  Trying to communicate with other people 
doesn't necessarily make me agree with them, but it makes me respect
their point of view.
        
My $0.02 anyways.
        

    re: .-2
    
> I don't want my tax dollars going toward a
>school system that has only Spanish-speaking people enrolled because they
>can't or won't learn English.  (I can imagine moving to another country where
>English is not a common language nor taught in school, and requesting that my
>children be taught English in school because it is their native tongue.  HA!,
>they'd scoff.)

	In Los Angeles, Elementary school classes are taught in English,
    Spanish, Korean, Chinese, Tagalog, and Vietnamese.  Many good teachers
    are not hired for the sole reason that they are mono-lingual.
    
    Ashley

re: .23 (Ashley)
>	In Los Angeles, Elementary school classes are taught in English,
>    Spanish, Korean, Chinese, Tagalog, and Vietnamese.  Many good teachers
>    are not hired for the sole reason that they are mono-lingual.
    
Do they *exclusively* teach only these languages, or are they taught along
with English?

My point is, simply, that having more than one "official" language in any
country only serves to promote confusion and separation.  While many such
countries with two or more "official" languages surely exist, this doesn't
necessarily mean that one that isn't as such should encourage the practice,
regardless of how many people there are living there for whom the "accepted"
language (read most-spoken & written) isn't their native tongue.

When in Rome, do as the Romans.  See?

Thanks,

Kip

   re .24
    
    The classes are taught in these, the mother tongue, languages of
    the students.  The students also learn English.  The majority of
    schools teach in English, of course; but there are many schools
    (and segregated classes) that teach in these languages.
    
    If the parents use the mother tongue in the home, they have the
    option of enrolling the child in an English class, or a native language
    class.
    
    I might also mention that the report where I got this info from
    mentioned that there is a considerable cost trying to find teachers
    to teach in these languages, and several mono-lingual (a.k.a. English
    only) teachers are rejected.

    A key point has been left out of some of these replies.  Throughout
    the world, English is increasingly becoming a world language.  In
    international business, transportation, communications, and a host
    of other areas, English is the ONLY language used.  For example,
    the European Free Trade Area which consists of Norway, Sweden, Austria
    and a few other countries, the official language is English, and
    yet English is not an official language of ANY of the member countries.
    I don't see why an English-speaking country like the U.S. shouldn't
    declare itself to have English as its official language, especially
    in a world where English is predominant.
    
    I hope I don't get replies to the effect that I am trying to suggegst
    everybody should learn English only; far from it.  Everybody should
    try to learn a second language for all the good reasons that have
    been mentioned here.  But I don't see the point in talking about
    forcing Americans to learn more languages in the United States, when 
    the trend in the rest of the world is towards English.
    
    Glenn

re: .26 (Glenn)

Thanks, Glenn.

re: .25 (Dirty Ashley - (sic))

OK, let's get back to Canada.  How do the Canadians who frequent this
Conference feel about Canada being a bi-lingual-ized country.  Do you
feel it's a hindrance, or a help?

Kip

    To add more to this note and since I'm FRENCH CANADIAN (notice I
    didn't say a Quebecer), I share my views on this issue.
    
    Canada has two official languages and included in this is many,
    many dialects of both languages. 
    
    I was born in Northen Ontario in a small town vertually 50/50
    French/English speaking. Most towns in Northern Ontario are like
    this. SOme are totally french others the oposite.
    
    My Grandmother was born in Manitoba in the red River valley. Also
    virtually all French. 
    
    There are French communities everywhere.
    
    Nova Scotia - Acadian French descedents of New Orleans people.
    New Brinswick - Fully Bilingual
    Quebec - French all the way with some communities English
    Ontario - North is a good percentage French.
    	    - Oshawa lots of french speaking people due to the Car
    	manufacturing.
    	    - North York, Scarborough in Toronto have French speaking
    	people.                                                 
    	    - Ottawa very much bilingual
    Manitoba -	Red River Valley, Winnipeg
    Alberta - Mainly due to the oil fields(JOBS) a lot of Quebec immigrants
    when to live there.          
    
    	The strangest thing I noticed was crossing the border in Quebec.
    French speaking people in Canada and as soon as you cross over,
    strickly English. Funny!
    
    Overall, the percentage is high of french speaking canadians

Some excerpts culled from an article in today's Boston Globe (page 3)
(reprinted without permission) - [kw]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

               Quebec's French sign law reversed

AP Toronto -  In a decision that could revive tensions between French and
English speakers in Quebec, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled yesterday
against a provincial law requiring commercial signs to be written in French.

In a 5-0 ruling, the court said Quebec can order French on signs but cannot
prevent other languages from being used as well.

Quebec's premier, Robert Bourassa, is expected to announce Sunday how the
provincial government will comply with the ruling.

The language law, known as Bill 101, was passed in 1977 when the separatist
Parti Quebecois held power.  Bourassa's Liberal Party platform has supported
multilingual signs.

The Ottawa court found that Section 58 of the law requiring commercial signs
to be written only in French violated guarantees of freedom of expression
provided in the Quebec charter.  However, the court said the Quebec
government's goal of providing a french "linquistic face" for the province
is valid.

Constitutional lawyers said Bourassa should be able to find a compromise on
the basis of the ruling.

"The judgment makes it consistent with civil liberties," lawyer Julius Grey
said in a television interview with the Canadian Broadcasting Corp.

The court rulings stemmed from two cases, one involving five companies that
used bilingual signs and the other from Allan Singer, a Montreal manufacturer
who insisted that he had the right to use signs written only in English.

"It's not a good decision for us," Singer told reporters in Montreal.  "We
wanted the English language in Quebec and in Canada, and we've been denied
it."

    re: .28
    
    The Acadians in the Maritimes are not descendants of the francophones
    in Louisiana.  The Cajuns are Acadians who were forcibly resettled
    by the English after the battle of Quebec.  At that time, Louisiana
    was the main French territory in North America.
    
    Also, the west coast of Newfoundland has an area that is predominantly
    francophone (the Port-aux-Port peninsula).  These people are also
    descended from the Acadians who settled New France (the Maritimes).
    
    Glenn

    As far as I am concerned, the "bi-lingual" status of Canada means
    that english will be spoken in all provinces and french will be
    tolerated (by the central governement and it's henchmen) until it
    is wiped out.  Already, french is reduced to folklore outside of
    my province, and Il'l be damned if Il'l let it become that way here!
    
    
    Jean
    

    re .31
    
    As far as I'm concerned, "BI-LINGUAL" means French and/or English
    can be spoken anywhere across the country.  
    
    If French has been reduced to nothing but 'folklore' outside of
    Quebec, I'll let you explain that to the French speaking people
    of New Brunswick, Winnipeg, Northern Ontario,...and other MAJOR
    French speaking centers  (and anyone else that speaks French, for
    that matter!)
    
    Yes, I've lived in Montreal, and other cities around Canada.  I
    find that French is commonly spoken (to a greater or lesser degree,
    but still exists) from coast to coast.  
    
    Fortunately, French language and heritage is part of the Canadian
    culture, and culture can NOT be legislated - no matter WHAT Premiere
    Bourassa thinks!	8-)
    
    
    Adieu!
    
    Dave

    I was born in Northern Ontario. I remember the days when The whole
    student body in l'Ecole secondaire Algonquin in North Bay were
    boycoting the Ontario school board, because Sturgent Falls and Cornwall
    wanted to have a French High School. It was a long battle, but we
    won at the end.
    
    Although my school was French, a lot of the classes had to be tought
    in English because there was no books. Most of the students spoke
    english outside the classrooms. Most of the students talked Franglais
    (French and English mixed up). Its still goes on today.
    
    A few months ago, some Sudbury people wanted the city to become
    strickly English. Their argument was that it cost to much to translate.
    
    The French vs. English scenario will probably continue for centuries.
    Quebec wants to make sure that the French language lives on.
    
    

    I also believe French is alive and well all over Canada. 
    
    I attended unilingual schools in both French and English because
    my father was in the armed forces and you went where you could.
    However, the best school I attended was in Pembroke, Ont which was
    bilingual. One week all teaching was done in French except for English
    grammar/literature and the next week the reverse was done. Granted
    most of the text books were in English but that didn't stop us.
    
    If you look at any school board in Ontario the majority of new students
    are being enrolled in intensive French curriculums. I believe this
    to be the case in other provinces as well. 
    
    I truly believe that people in the rest of the country are trying
    to ensure that their children become bilingual and grow up in a
    country that is bilingual. Only in Quebec is a government trying
    to legislate the future of their children to being second class.
    Any unilingual person in the future will not have the advantages
    a bilingual person will have.
    
    Do we have a Canadian SOAPBOX  :-)
    
    Roger

	How does the gov't figure that French is endangered in Quebec?
About 20 yr ago, my family spent many weekends in the Eastern Townships.
Historically, that area was primarily English, and it was very easy to
communicate in English.  When I went back for a weekend a few months
ago, I find that English is dying out! 

	Half the people you talk to still have names like Kelly,
McGregor, McEwen, Smith -- but don't expect them to understand English. 
Just by the weight of population, French is "winning" all the newer
generation. 

	It can only be the big city - Montreal - that they are worried
about losing, as far as French accessibility.  There, the pressure to
communicate outside Quebec is at the maximum. 

	But you can't REALLY legislate against natural trends: Montreal 
needs to be a bilingual city.  And, it will be less of a great city for
what Bill 101 signifies.  It was once known as one of North America's
most cosmopolitan cities, with all kinds of thriving cultural diversity
-- now Chinese signs are illegal in Chinatown!  The "provincial"
anti-English thinking will damage Montreal as a place to live and visit
in many more ways than Bill 101.  So long, Paris of North America... 

>>>    -- now Chinese signs are illegal in Chinatown!  The "provincial"
>>>

    	Now this is hilarious...Chinese is spoken by 25% of the world's
    	population, but does anyone REALLY think that Chinese will be
    	a threat to the longevity of the French language in Quebec?
    
    	Over here, there are alot of people who were brought over by
	their relatives but they don't know any other language except
    	for Chinese (or some other language).  The signs on the outside
    	of the ethnic stores are the only way that they have to get
	around on their own until they get a chance to learn the language.
    
	Imagine a visitor on a business trip to QUebec and this visitor
    	doesn't speak French.  It would be extremely hard to get around
    	(follow signs, find places, etc) without a guide.  This would
	tend to turn off out-of-town tourists.  I was away from Quebec
    	City for 18 years.  I didn't go back to Quebec City until this
    	year because I found a friend who could speak French fluently.
    	We stayed with her relatives who didn't speak ANY English. 
    	It would have been really tough to get around to see my old
    	stomping grounds alone.
    
    
    	Does anyone know if the Holland School is still a primarily-English
    	speaking school?  It's about 8 blocks west of where they build
    	the ice castle every winter in Quebec City.
    
    
    	B.
    

    	

    When a language is used by a minority, it is "cute" and it is accepted,
    when the minority becomes too large, the majority acts!.  Please
    reference the language bills in of all places the US of A.  California
    had a referendum to make ENGLISH the mandatory language as well
    as Florida, in both cases the "offending" language was spanish,
    it seems that the spanish speaking people WANTED to have schools
    in spanish and SERVICES in spanish, of course the english majority
    would have none of it, and I agree with them.  When you emigrate
    to the US, you choose the english language as your primary language,
    you adopt US culture and if you so choose, you still speak your
    "mother" tongue, and participate in "folkloric" events.
    
    	When Canada was formed, both languages and cultures were guaranteed
    a future, it is quite clear that the only keeper of the french culture
    is the province of Qu�bec, altough many people do speak french outside
    of my province, and thus are bilingual, they are NOT bi-cultural!
    
    	If for no other reason than to keep Canada bi-cultural, leave
    us our language, our culture, even if the transition is pronounced
    between the provinve of Qu�bec and the others.
    
    	I know it's hard to understand for a United-Stater (I live in
    north america, thus I am an American too ) that road signs could
    be in any other language than english, after all even aliens from
    alpha centauri speak english (altough I don't know if they have
    signs in english or if they have passed a bill 1100101)
    
    Jean
    
    

>    	If for no other reason than to keep Canada bi-cultural, leave
>    us our language, our culture, even if the transition is pronounced
>    between the provinve of Qu�bec and the others.    

Jean, 
	It isn't that anybody (well, anybody reasonable) wants to take
away the French lang and culture: we just see the current measures as
being excessive, and unfair.  Compared to Nazi Germany's treatment of
the Jews, it's just a difference in degree -- but the disregard for the
viewpoint and rights of others (the English minority) is there -- and it
is getting stronger.  When does it stop?

	Whenever any civilized society starts to justify disregard of
minority rights, in history it has always gone too far. 

	If it's okay for Quebec to stamp out English in their province,
why not okay for Alberta to stamp out French in their province?  The
trend in the rest of Canada is toward accepting bilingual services and
schools.  Where is the danger of French being extinguished?  Have any 
statistics been advanced?  Instead of an enlightened response, it looks
like an increasingly "redneck" and uncompromising trend coming in
Quebec. 

    Why then was it OK for a hundred years in Manitoba to outlaw french?
    The supreme court ruling then had NO effect because the cause was
    lost forever.  The laws (loi 101) are made to integrate the
    immigrants into the french system, the english minority see this
    as a threat to the survival of thier community, this is what the
    fight is all about.
    
    English schools are were closing down because they did not have
    enough students, so the PSBGM (Protestant school board of greater
    Montreal) made french "classes" in thier schools, in other words,
    they were capturing some of the immigrant population into thier
    community.  
    
    It should be stressed to future immigrants that living in the province
    of Qu�bec the language to be used would be french, if they wish
    to speak english (to facilitate thier entry into the US) then they
    will have to go elsewere!
    
    Jean
    

    French culture in Canada does not need such harse measures for its
    protection. Vindictive or vengeful acts to correct wrongs of one
    hundred or two hundred years ago are ludicrous. 
    
    Last weekend, I was in Toronto's Chinatown, and French and English
    are about the only languages you won't find there.  I just can't
    imagine Toronto with only English on its signs.
    
    Glenn

    
    I wonder if latin died as slowly and painfully as french seems
    to be.  
    
      Every year, there are less worldwide french speakers, and even
    in france itself "legislative action" is being taken to try to 
    halt the decline in the language.   Still, I can understand (and
    support) the concept of an "official language" for the transaction
    of official business, but deliberately thrusting french in the
    face of non_french speaking transients (such as road_signs in 
    areas of heavy tourist travel) seems a bit much.  If anything 
    it portrays a certain "closedness" against the very outsiders 
    they are seeking to introduce to the french culture.
    
    
      From my point of view, the french in quebec are engaging in the
    very xenophobia that they criticise in the English_speaking provinces.

    
    Canadians today are much more 'open-minded' as far as languages
    go.  
    
    With the current influx of peole from other nations, Canada is
    demonstrating it's Cultural Mosaic by allowing these people to retain
    many of their customs and their language.  In Toronto, you could
    live in Chinatown (as many do) and not know a word of English. 
    You could move here from Italy, live in the area called 'Little
    Italy', and not have a language barrier.
    
    Canada is GROWING culturally.  But this growth does NOT EXCLUDE 
    our present French or English culture.  These are growing as well.
    
    Again, in the Toronto area, there are many French schools.  As well,
    many English schools have recently given younger children the option
    of learning in a bi-lingual environment - and the number of children
    enrolled in these programs is staggering!  The school boards were
    not ready for such great numbers when these plans were put in place.
    
    The point of all this...?
    
    French is NOT dying a slow and painful death...rather, it is surviving,
    and quite well, thank you.  
    
    I'm truly sorry that Quebec feels as it does - that is must 'defend'
    the language.  
    
    I do hope that Quebec is willing to sign the constitution, though,
    before they decide they have had enough of this 'being Canadian'
    - and that might be next...
    
    
    Dave  
    

    re; .-1 (DG)
    >>                        -< French is very much alive and well! >-
                
    Horse-Puckie, Gendron.
    
    The French "Culture" (read 'Quebec') is attempting suicide once
    again.
    
    Nobody is really _sure_ whether seccession is bad or good for Quebec.
    Who knows, it *might* be better for them ! (twist the irony screws
    when ready ...).
    
    
    Scooter
    

    French culture in Qu�bec is not dying, in fact a lot of our
    entertainers pushed thier carrers outside the province and into
    the francophone nations (if any of you noticed, during the last
    olympic games, the results were anounced in korean, in french and
    in english.) 
    
    	Keeping a french "face" is NOT digging a hole, it is showing
    our difference.  When you go to chinatown, you are not looking for
    a McDonald's! when you come to Qu�bec, enjoy the difference, don't
    fight it, don't try to obliterate it, preserve it just as you would
    an endangered species or an old monument, it is the cultural heritage
    of Canada, it is what makes us different from the United-Staters!
    
    Jean
    

    To add to -.1
    
    	When you go to France, Spain, Italy, China, Japan; do you see
    English signs? NO! because the people don't talk english. Can you
    get arround?  Sure you can! So why is it important to have English
    signs in Quebec?
    
    DL

    
>>>    	When you go to France, Spain, Italy, China, Japan; do you see
>>>    English signs? NO! because the people don't talk english. Can you
>>>    get arround?  Sure you can! So why is it important to have English
>>>    signs in Quebec?

    	Not necessarily true...I can read a map as well as anyone because
    	the characters are the same.  However, I would have a bit of
    	trouble doing "simple" things like reading a French menu or
    	reading "simple" safety signs in the road.
    
    	My primary language was English while I was living in Quebec.
    	While living there, I learned to make do without having a good
    	understanding of the French language.  However, this was
	accomplished as a result of alot of patience and trial-and-error.
    	The province should not make it difficult for people like me
    	who would like to visit the homelands without a translator.
        I went to the winter carnaval last year for the first time in
        18 years and I had a hard time reading the road signs to tell
        me how to get somewhere.

    	In Boston, alot of public signs are also in Spanish.  The
	government recognizes that it has a SUBSTANTIAL Hispanic population
        and makes an effort to help them get around or get information
        easily and quickly.  Quebec has the same situation.  There are
        ALOT of Quebec people who speak English and the province gets ALOT
        of visitors from outside Quebec.  Most of the people that I
    	talked to during the last carnaval (YES, I WAS OUT THERE GETTING
        DRUNK WITH THE REST OF THE CITY!) spoke English as their primary
        language.

    	In Hong Kong (which I've never been to) there are alot of English
        signs...even with all the Chinese people there. Why? Because
        there are so many people who speak English.  Alot of the Chinese
        there are taught how to speak English and there are alot of
        foreign visitors.
    
        On the other hand, language requirements for public officials
    	who have to answer to the general public...that's a different
        issue.

    Why then, if Canada is "officially" a bi-lingual contry, are there
    no road sings in french outside Qu�bec?  
    
    Jean
    
    PS when travelling in europe, I had no trouble with road sings even
    though I do not speak Dutch, Flemmish, Spanish, Portugese or Italian.
    And even if I did make a mistake and take a wrong turn, I had an
    excuse ready to spew out in an instant.
    
    PS to a PS, You will find that almost ALL restaurants have menus
    in both french and english (except those yuppy restaurants in Boston,
    and they are in french!)
    

    "officially" means the Fed. Govt. must provide services in both
    official languages.
    
    Stop signs in France reading STOP, in Quebec - ARRETE ....
    
    
    In the western, democratic world, people like to say things like,
    "at least in the free world, you have the choice" when viewing things
    like bitter debates over abortion, language, religion, politics.
    
    It appears that in Quebec, with re: to languages, one democratic
    right you do not have is choice. (As in put up a "help wanted" sign
    in your window ...)
    
    Scooter

>>>        Stop signs in France reading STOP, in Quebec - ARRETE ....
>>>    

    	even with the red octagonal signs, it took me a while to make
    	the connection with the word "STOP".  I thought it was amusing.
        
>>>    It appears that in Quebec, with re: to languages, one democratic
>>>    right you do not have is choice. (As in put up a "help wanted" sign
>>>    in your window ...)

    	Oooooh....
    	ah...that's a good example.  if the hirer didn't care what language
    	the prospective employee spoke...

I'm all for esperanto, myself! 

Russ Schwartz.

    SOME stop signs in France (Northeast of Paris down to Strasbourg)
    MAY not have "STOP" on them.
    
    Most DID, for the 17 years I lived there
    
>    >>>    It appears that in Quebec, with re: to languages, one democratic
> >>>    right you do not have is choice. (As in put up a "help wanted" sign
> >>>    in your window ...)

>    	Oooooh....
>    	ah...that's a good example.  if the hirer didn't care what language
>    	the prospective employee spoke...
 
    Nice try. Most people are intelligent enough to recognize diversion
    of semantics when it happens. Pick your own example. "Batteries
    for sale" - "Milk - .99 per litre" - "Down with Upper Canada"
    If francophones can't read the sign, maybe the business or cause
    will suffer - BUT IT'S A CHOICE MADE FREELY BY THE ADVERTISER, you
    dolt. The rest of Canada has that right, and freedom. Quebecois
    do not. Their gov't obviously believes they are second class citizens.
    
    Scooter

    Then tell me how free I was when I had to get a job, I HAD to speak
    english even though they were hiring uni-lingual english personnel!
    The test I took were all in english! was this fair or was it just
    a means to keep the francophones at the bottom of the pile?  sounds
    more like racism if you ask me.
    
    Just look at what we are doing as closing the window to keep the
    cold out, we can still see outside, and the air vents keep enough
    coming in.
    
    Jean
    
     

    In the case of put out a sign of employment, if the advertiser wasn't
    ALLOWED to also put English on the sign, that would be unfair
    discrimination and unfair hiring practices.  If the hirer didn't
    need someone who spoke French, then someone who spoke only English
    could not get the job, because that person didn't know French.
    
    Doesn't Canada have ANY laws against unfair discrimination?  We
    have so many affirmative action and equal opportunity laws on this
    side of the border.

    There are many unfair discrimination laws in Canada as they apply
    to work. However I don't believe any of them relate to language.
    
    The federal government has listed each position in the public service
    as one of the following: uni-lingual French, uni-lingual English,
    or bi-lingual with gradations as to reading/writing/conversation.
    These are based on the percentage of the public to be served in
    an official language. The language rating is a minimum, so that
    bi-lingual can take any position. Also if a position supervises
    other positions which have both uni-linugual requirements, then the
    supervisor must be bi-lingual.
    
    re: -2 
    
    I will agree that in the past major businesses in Quebec effectively
    forced French employees to speak English. However I no longer believe
    this. I think some are going to the other extreme and saying if
    you don't speak French you can't get hired. This is just as bad.
    I see no objection to requiring a person to be bi-lingual to get
    a job, but I do object to one language being discriminated against,
    regardless of the language.
    
    Roger

    Notwithstanding the emotional & socio-political aspects of languages
    in the workplace, most places I've worked treated language as a
    SKILL-SET.
    
    Scooter

    
    When I was in Mexico, the only language I saw in the streets and
    in the stores was Spanish. The restaurants' menu were only in Spanish,
    I was dependent on the waiters/waitresses to pick out my meal. I didn't
    and couldn't complain, although i can speak four languanges fluently;
    l'espanole is not one of them. I didn't expect  the mexicans to speak
    any of them, they were very helpful, but... I was in their land, and thus
    I had to expect some difficulty. I encountered the same problem
    in Taipei. As soon as I was out of the hotel, I was on my own. I
    didn't drive cos' i don't understand chinese signs. If stop signs
    were my only problem, I would be home free, but it wasn't.
    
    
    During the free trade debates, we were all concerned about the loosing
    our Canadian identity. Mr. John Turner scored a lot of points by
    appealing to our national sovereignty.  On the national TV debate
    when he told Brian, "You sold out", the polls dramatically
    changed. 
    
    The reason was that we as Canadians are afraid of being over taken by
    the US, even though Canada and the US have the same language. Therefore
    a lot of Canadians were against free trade.
    
    Quebeckers on the other hand were for free trade. They didn't feel
    threatened culturaly, they looked at it for what it was, a buisiness
    deal. Two nations  working together. I am sure we would come up 
    with some "unwithstanding clause" should the Canadian identity be 
    threatened with the US. Yet, we "beat-up" Quebec for doing it.
        
  

I have enjoyed hearing the other side. For 13 years I've heard my husband
say that my cousins, aunts and uncles should learn to speak english if they
are to visit. None of them speak english yet they drive to N.H. and hit
hampton beach and some go as far as Florida for their vacation.
              They appear fully intact upon their return trip. Many that
have kids same age as mine can still have a good time and often get their
point across. Very funny to watch because at times they are having totaly
different conversations. But are fully entertained.
              On a trip to Canada for a wedding I meet up with A friend of
mine she is living in Conn. and her french is somewhat RUSTY. We all went
out to breakfast together and she ordered what she thought was some new 
exotic juice. " du jus de rasin" Raisin juice right!!!! nope grape juice is
what she got  Real red in the face and we got one hell of a laugh out of
it. I guess my point is All this depends on your sense of humor.

                           as you see my french is rusty also.
                                          Linda

    There seems to be some confusion over the implications of Bill 101
    (and its offspring, Bill 179).  People in Quebec are being denied
    basic human rights as defined by the Canadian Constitution.  If
    Quebec's non-francophones are being denied rights, the backlash
    in the rest of Canada will be severe.  Advances made in Ontario,
    New Brunswick, and Manitoba to provide services in both English
    and French will be threatened.  All minority language rights in
    Canada will be threatened, possibly leading to a breakdown in our
    Federal system.
    
    Discussing the implications to tourists is a side show, not the real
    issue.  I don't care if tourists can't read the signs in Quebec; but I
    do care that I can not place a non-French sign on my store. Didn't we
    learn from the 1970 imposition of the War Measures Act that we must
    protect our basic rights, no matter how reasonable the justification?
    
    Glenn

    Reading through all of these made me feel a little better.  My concern
    with the language barrier was this.  I planned to move to Canada
    trying all the "right" things first.  I could not get a job w/DEC
    in Montreal (where I wanted to be), so I went further west towards
    Ottawa (more English speaking).  What bothers me is this, being
    a secretary it would be critical for me to speak both languages
    in Montreal.  I do speak a little French and am more than willing
    to go to courses and class whatever, but of course that was not
    good enough.  I was wondering, is there any English companies located
    in Montreal?  If so what are they.  Thank you....L

    There are quite a few "english" compannies in Montr�al, of which
    DEC is a good example, but no company in it's right mind would hire
    a unilingual secretary, when 85% of the population is french speaking!
    (greater Montr�al stats).  Why not try the new Hull facility, they
    are even giving french lessons to all employees moving to Hull.
    
    Jean
    

    I'm sorry that I am opening a lot of 'old' topics, but I got a lot
    of catching up to do.
    
    I personally think that it is a good idea to be multilingual. When I
    lived in Quebec, I used to speak French. When me moved away, I forgot
    it all. I now wish I had worked harder at it in later years. I now
    speak a little German, and a little Spanish, aand come September, I'm
    off to night school to try and learn French.
    
    Now, I can remember that the stop signs had both 'stop' and 'arret'
    printed on them. Does antone know why this was done, when you realise
    that in France, their signs say only 'Stop'.
    
    I like Canadian pacakaging though, with both French and English writing
    on it. Is the written French in this case, real French, or a localised
    version ? I once had the pleasure of a trip to Stassbourg in France
    with my Father. and some people from Quebec. One of these ordered for
    us in a cafe at lunch time. The waiter pretended not to understand what
    the guy was saying, and asked my Father for the order, in Franglaise.
    Personally, I think the waiter was being rude, but is French Canadian
    really different from French French ?
    
    Wayne.                                                             
    
    P.S. Do they still show Chez Helen on T.V. ?

A friend of mine, from Acadia, travels to France on a regular
basis from Ottawa.  He has learned to cultivate a 'Parisien' accent
because of the 'up-turned noses' that he confronts whenever he speaks
French in his Acadian accent.  Apparently, the ultimate insult when
speaking French is to have them respond, "Oh, you must be Belgian".

Another friend of mine from Embrun in Eastern Ontario has had the
occasion to travel to Basel.  His accent is typical of this area
of French-speaking Ontario and West Quebec; however, the French-Swiss
apparently found him to be completely incomprehensible, so he had to
switch to English (which is barely comprehensible) on numerous occasions.

Beats me why there is little tolerance of strange accents when speaking
French, when broken English is almost a lingua franca.

    I dunno if I'm the best person to answer this since my French is good
    enough to get by, but not really fluent, but I'll give it a try.
    
    It seems to me that there are a lot of different colloquial and slang
    expressions, but the written and more formal language is pretty much the 
    same. In Belgium, you can notice the difference between the Parisan
    accent (belgians tend to speak a bit more slowly) and the Canadian
    accent is even more different. It seems that a European French speaker
    should have no trouble understanding someone from Quebec, but you
    never can tell for sure.  I liken it to the differences between North 
    American, English, Scottish, Irish, Australian and New Zeland speech 
    patterns. There's no trouble (usually) in understanding, but the accent 
    is different and you know the person isn't from your neck of the woods. 
    Granted this is a simplistic view, as anyone who has ever listened to a 
    conversation between a Valley Girl and a Scotsman will attest: 
    
    V: Oh, wow man! Like really gnarley skirt ya got there, dude!
    S: Awaywiye, lass! Arrre ye daft? Tha's mi kilt yoor tookin aboout!   

	Yorkshire: 	Eee, bye goom, lads. Shall we go down club.
	Oxford:  	Aooh, certainly myy good man.  Truly smashing idea, wot?
	Aussie: 	Crikey, mate. So's we're goin' for a f**king beer?
	Ottawa Valley:  It's a ter how the brew goes down when yer havin'
			fun, eh?
	Scot:		Arr, gwa daf ta glasgy toon, naw ta broon!
	Oxford:		I say, good chap.  Wot on earth did that kilted person
			say, haarrumpf.
	Aussie:		Look, mate.  'e wants a pint a f**king brown ale.  Now
			shut your f**king pommie gob or I'll set the dingos
			on yer billabong.
	German:		Und ver ist der grosse fraus mit der boomshin bums?
	Scot:		Grrr oota fit, yer gra blooooody kraut!
	Oxford:		Oooh, cawn't we have a smidgen of decorum, chaps?
	Aussie:		Roit!  Yer f**king for it pal!
	Dutch:		Dikky dunk, allo. Van der wijk der uit unt Mo Jo?
	Cockney:	Oi!  Not on moy whistle and flute.  Cor! Ain't 'e
			arf daf.  A proper copper's narc, 'e is.
	Ottawa Valley:	G'day lads.  I'm from the Valley, and did yer baaarrn
			burn doooon?
	Scot:		Ga arr ta toon, yer f**ooooking i oot da gwa herrrrrre!

...and so it was that 1 July 1992 was remembered as the day that Europe united
with Great Britain.

Hi,

re .62

>>Beats me why there is little tolerance of strange accents when speaking
>>French, when broken English is almost a lingua franca.

Reckon that much of the answer is in .63:  So many different dialects means 
so many different words that the Frenchman in Paris doesn't understand your
Acadian friend.  When I go to Qu�bec I have trouble understanding anything in
a conversation between two Francophone locals.

Same thing goes for English, too.  The Aussie english is easy enough to 
understand, but many of the terms are different.  Went to Scotland once and
understand much of what was said in Edinburgh.  More north we went, less we 
understood.  By the time we got to Inverness I didn't understand a word.

Thank God we didn't go to the Shetlands..

rick ellis

    The most important thing about the Quebec accent is that it has
    developed in relative isolation from the French of the late 1700s, when
    the British took over. An English dialect that had developed in a
    similar way would be just as incomprehensible...
    
    ...laura

    re .66
    
>    the British took over. An English dialect that had developed in a
>    similar way would be just as incomprehensible...
    
 	I think she's talking about American "English".
    
    Tony

    Re. 67
    
               Exactly !
    
     ...and also the kind of "silly english" they speak in B.C & NFld.
    
    By the way: Who made Laura.66 an expert on the French language ?
    
    FaZari

    Me? An expert? No. I speak enough French that I can usually make myself
    understood. I have studied a fair amount of linguistics. I am
    reasonably familiar with the history of Canada.
    
    By the way, I was born and raised in B.C. Our English is just as valid
    as anybody else's.
    
    ...laura

re: .69 by ...laura

�    By the way, I was born and raised in B.C. Our English is just as valid
�    as anybody else's.
    

    Of course, one presumes that one means anybody else who is not of the
    true English bloodline.
    				8-)

    If you try to judge acceptance of french spoken in Qu�bec by the
    Parisians, you may be waaaay off!  (some) inhabitants of Paris are well
    known for their rudeness, and it is like that in most large cities.
    
    In fact the further you are from Paris, the more our "accent" was
    ignored and what we were saying was listened to.  In Brittany and
    Normandy, some people had accents that sounded quite close to ours.
    
    Jean
    

    re .71
    
    Yes, I've heard that too. Supposedly Jacques Cartier & a lot of the
    people who first settled in Quebec were from Brittany and Normandy, so
    the speech pattern would be similar. Of course, the language would have
    had 300+ years to evolve.
    
    re. Parisians
    
    Paris is the New York of the French-speakig world, so EVERYWHERE else
    simply doesn't matter. Naturally, it is the ONLY place where proper
    French is spoken :-) Yes, I'v found that people in the countryside are
    MUCH more likeable than your average Parisan, yet I've also met nice
    people from Paris. Nonetheless there is a certain smugness about it,
    much like a New Yorker viewing nearby major cities like Boston and
    Philadelphia as cow-towns in Iowa.
    
    Tom

Sorry to wake up a dormant topic!


I'm currently working my way thru a book call 'La Parlure Quebecoise'
which, as the name implies, describes some of the Quebec dialect.

It's very funny in parts (which I gather is a distinguishing feature of that
variation).

One part that intrigues me is the frequent use of 'Anglicisms'. Mainly
because I don't recognize many of the original English expressions. One
example being your 'Forty Fives' (favorite clothes).

Does anyone know of an equivalent book for 'Canadian English'?

Thanks
Mark