Conference hydra::dejavu

    Hi Cindy,
    
    At the risk of being "jumped on," I'll make some comments on
    vegetarianism.  I did follow the previous, somewhat heated discussion
    in the "End of the World" topic.
    
    When I was 16 years old, my parents decided to raise a steer for the
    freezer.  We were all supposed to be out of the house the day the
    butcher came; unfortunately, I didn't get out in time.  As I was
    leaving, I looked out the window just in time to see the steer get shot
    between the eyes.  I didn't see the butcher, just heard the shot and
    saw the steer drop to the ground.  As I was driving away, the butcher
    had the steer hanging from a crane and blood was draining from it's
    slit throat.  I stopped eating meat that day.  
    
    This wasn't really a conscious moral decision, but more of a 16 year
    old girl's reaction to blood and guts and it's connection to hamburgers.  
    A few years later, I began eating fish and chicken again and gradually
    went beck to eating red meat as well.  From then on I yo-yo'd between
    being a vegetarian and being an omnivore.  My current mode is *almost*
    vegetarian; I still eat fish, eggs and milk once in a while.
    
    My reasons for trying to become a vegetarian have changed quite a bit
    over the years starting with the steer incident.  The latest attempt is
    a result of having stayed with a family, for four months, who had meat
    with every meal.  I know I could have chosen to not eat the meat, but I
    come from a family where it's rude not to eat what's put on your
    plate, and I'm just now breaking out of that mold.  So when I came
    home, I decided I wasn't going to eat meat anymore, mainly because I
    feel better when I don't.  I went "cold turkey" giving up red meat and
    poultry, but I'm still having a hard time giving up shrimp, crab, and fish.
    So my current round of trying to be vegetarian began because of health
    concerns, but then I became more aware of animal cruelty and it became
    a moral issue for me.  Now, I don't know whether "man" was "meant" to
    eat meat or not, and I don't really care.  All I know, is that I feel
    much better and don't catch colds or the flu as much when I don't eat
    meat.  And with the current issues concerning sanitation during the
    slaughter of food animals, I doubt that I will ever go back to eating
    red meat or poultry.
    
    If someone wants to eat steak or chicken or whatever, s/he can have it. 
    And, if s/he won't condemn my eating habits, I won't condemn his/hers.
    
    Best regards,
    Michelle

    I forgot to add that I used to think that it was just fine to eat beef
    or chicken because we raised them for our consumption, but these
    animals go through a lot of pain and suffering before they are finally
    slaughtered.  My personal sense of what's "right" and "good" will not
    allow me to overlook this suffering.  I'm not an activist, but I will
    show my disapproval by not supporting the industry.  
    
    For people who wish to eat meat, I would recommend free range chickens
    and/or kosher meats; however, I would still be a bit leary of the
    (un)sanitary conditions of butchers and meat packing plants.  I think
    we need to have a general re-structuring of our ideas of what's
    acceptable in the food department.  We need to put pressure on the
    companies/people who produce our food to get them to deliver fresh
    *healthy* foods rather than contaminated meat, genetically engineered
    vegetables, chemical covered fruit, products so old that most of the
    nutrition has leached out, etc., etc.  [Ooops, excuse me while I step
    down from this soapbox. :^]  Anyway, the food producing industry will
    dish out as much as the public will put up with even if it means the
    failing health of a nation.
    
    Best,
    Michelle

...ANOTHER ONE NOT FOR QUEEZY STOMACHS...BUT TRUE...

Well, this isn't exactly a positive reply (sorry Cindy), but I wanted to get my
two cents worth in (actually it's more since I won't have to pay for the medical
bills!) on meat consumption.

I just wanted to share with everyone one of the wonderful (few) programs I saw
on television (I was watching at my brother's place, not wanting a television in
my house is another issue). This was a 60 minutes program about the FDA and the
meat packing industry.

The most important details I can remember are that for one, since Reganomics
successfully and significantly decreased the regulation of meat inspections
(supposedly to increase sales to boost the industry), a number of FDA inspectors
were interviewed on what they saw and what the quality was of the meat which was
being put on supermarket shelves all over the nation.

From what I recall (and this is the part which makes me not want to eat meat any
more!) the FDA inspectors admitted that most of the meat was not being properly
handled and that many times entire racks of meat were being contaminated by
fecies and urine which was never cleaned up. They showed a number of videos which
showed this actually happening (full bladders bursting, entire carcasses falling
on the floor which was covered with fecies and urine, etc., and being put right
back up and pushed out the door!).

These meat processing plants are still in operation by the way, thanks to
Reganomics. It had also been reported that they had found buckshot and other
foreign materials in the meat (not to mention all the chemicals they pump in them
for preservatives and for coloring) and that some people have actually died from
meat contaminated in this way.

When the FDA inspectors were asked if they felt they would provide this quality
of meat which is going out on the national market to their families, all of them
replied that they absolutely would not.

So, for you meat eaters, eat away...but what you don't know you are eating might
hurt you, be careful!

Sergei
_who_also_only_goes_for_organic_vegetables!

    How can anyone survive on the veggies that are offered for
    sale in the supermarkets or in the health food stores?  I
    love vegetables but I can't deal with what's being sold on
    a regular basis.  Any good vegetable stands/sources around?  
    
    As I munch on some so-so pea pods,
    Joanne

                 
    Sergei,
    
    I have a friend who, several years ago, returned meat to a store in 
    Acton, Mass. because it had a large quantity of buckshot in it.
    
    Cindy

    re: .4
    
    Luckily for me, I live in California, so I can get fresh fruits and
    veggies almost year round.  I tend to buy organic produce and frequent
    the summer Farmer's Markets for fresh, organic, locally grown produce. 
    I can't stand veggies like styrafoam tomatoes and tasteless carrots
    from the regular grocery stores!
    
    Best,
    Michelle

    
RE:   <<< Note 1706.2 by JULIET::CANTONI_MI "That really ghasts my flabber!" >>>
    
>    I forgot to add that I used to think that it was just fine to eat beef
>    or chicken because we raised them for our consumption, but these
>    animals go through a lot of pain and suffering before they are finally
>    slaughtered.  
    
    	Ah, but it depends where you get your meat etc. I grew up on a
    farm where the meat animals received more attention than the pets! Just
    two weeks ago I was helping my father trim hooves on the sheep and
    "paint their feet" with a special disinfectant to keep them healthy and
    pain-free. 
    
    	When the ewes give birth in the spring, they sometimes reject the
    lambs if they are weak. My parents will take these lambs *in the house*
    and raise them from a bottle until they are old enough to go out in the
    fields. Then these bottle fed lambs will be given to a petting zoo, due
    to the fact that my parents get very attached to them when they hand
    raise them like that (it's like having a baby in the house!). My father
    for years would not "put down" (aka put-to-sleep) a sheep or other farm
    animal....he asked me to do it.
    
    	I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't come down on
    farmers everywhere. Sure, the big guys are screwing up and they should
    be made to conform to higher standards, but don't hurt the family
    farmer in the process. Most smaller farmers are doing it because they
    love it, not to make a buck......
    
    					jim s.

I notice all of the "meat-talk" is US-based. I wonder how standards differ in
the UK - I can not for the life of me imagine buckshot riddled meat being sold
for example! :-|

What's the background to the reduction-in-quality story, and who are the FDA?

Strange they should come up, next reply I will post a mail I received *just
today* about the FDA coming down hard on health food stores...

								- JIM CAD*

---------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 92 00:04:51 PDT
From: [email protected] (Ben Delisle)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: FDA still at large
Status: RO

From: Blanc Weber <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jul 16 92 08:26:47 PDT
Subject: FDA Still At-Large

I read this in the PCC July newsletter (Puget Sound food cooperative -
usually not an anti-authoritarian type, although pro-alternative health
method).  The article is by Carolyn Reeder, and this is an excerpt.
...................................................................... 
The FDA and state authorities continue actions against natural health
businesses.  In May, a chain of stores (Ye Seekers) was raided in
Texas, and many items confiscated.  On the home front, Dr. Wright has
still not been apprised of any charges from the Tahoma Clinic raid, a
similar situation experienced by other FDA-raided establishments.

Overhauling of the FDA seems in order.  It goes against one's sense of
justice that the FDA can so abuse the rights of natural health
establishments; that it can subject these businesses to searches and
seizures of items worth thousands of dollars, and neither be held to
any normal due process of law nor be required to bring charges against
the businesses for years afterward (Century Clinic in Reno and others);
that those who have the courage to sue the FDA risk additional raids
(Century Clinic and Tahoma Clinic in Kent, WA); or may risk, in the
case of nonmedical people, investigation by the IRS.  (A woman in
California reports that in her effort to obtain a lawyer to sue the
FDA, the 24 attorneys she contacted all refused the case because of
fear of retaliation via the IRS).

This brings to mind very serious questions few might dare propose:  in
the case of Dr. Wright's back taxes, did the IRS (under direction of
the FDA) push through the laws that created the back-tax assessment in
order to harm Dr. Wright specifically, since he is a successful
alternative physician.  Does collusion exist between these agencies,
and if so, to what extent?  Why is it that even if a seizure is
challenged successfully, the FDA is not required to reimburse the
raided company's expenses?  -  as in the case of Traco Labs of
Champaign, Illinois, that so far has paid over $180,000 in legal fees
to successfully challenge an FDA seizure and is still in court after
four years.

The FDA, rather than doing investigations, seems to be badly in need of
*being* investigated.
For more information read:
1) "History of a Crime" by Harvey W. Wiley, M.D. (the first head of the FDA)
      Harvey W. Wiley, M.D., Publisher
      506 Mills Building, WA, D.C., 1929

2) "The Healing of Cancer" (which exposes the efforts to suppress
      alternative cancer treatments by the FDA, the American Cancer
      Society, the National Cancer Institute, and the American Medical
      Association) by Barry Lynes

3) "The Dictocrats" published by Books for Today
     (recommended by Dr. Wright)
......................................................................


----------- End Forwarded Message -----------


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Re: .-2 (Jim)

The FDA is the United States Food and Drug Administration, and is an official
branch of the U.S. government.

It does not surprise me that the FDA would be involved with a "scam" to disrupt
or put out of business health food stores, because it is consistent with their
efforts to push more meat out the door (this, I will admit, I am sympathetic to
the family farmer, who in my opinion, is not significantly contributing to the
meat available in national food chain-supermarkets). Although I don't know all
the facts (not having done an in-depth research on this, and not likely to as
that 60 minutes program and my knowledge of activities of the U.S. govt. is
enough for me!) it is consistent because even though the inspectors would not
feed this meat to their families, the meat they are "approving" to be sold
to the general public is being regulated and pushed by the White House, and
the FDA is at their beck-and-call. The primary motivation being to boost the
financial gain of these major meat-producing companies (again, this is *not* for
the benefit of the family farmer) and protect their interests because they are
the heavies that the current administration in the White House is lobbying for
to get their campaign fund-raising. 

It therefore makes sense to me why they would be raiding natural health food 
stores because the White House sees this as a growing trend and as a threat to
the success of these businesses which they "contracted" to support, in return
for their big campaign donations. It all boils down to money and power (pardon
the tasteless pun).

In any event, to change the tone of this a little, because of this, it is
becoming more and more necessary, practical and health-conscious to support our
local farmers, buy the organically grown produce, or even have an organic garden
of our own (which IMHO is actually the best because you not only know more of
what you are getting, you gain the life experience in understanding what it took
to get it there and are a participating part in it). They need us, and we need
them. I for one no longer trust the U.S. govt. to put adequate regulations in
place to ensure the health and safety of the general public. When I saw that
they changed the standards on accepted mercury levels in the fish and water
every year to defer costs of protecting and improving the environment, that
trust went out the window. This example of the meat packing industry is yet
another aspect of the continuing degradation of proper regulations to
responsibly protect the health and safety of the general public.

So, this may detract a bit from the base note, but I thought I would share some
of my thoughts on the subject, and try to break this question of "to eat or not
to eat" meat down into a couple of parts, one being the spiritual aspects of
eating meat, and the other, the physical, or practical aspects. The spiritual
aspects of eating meat I must admit I agree with Cindy on whole-heartedly, but
this is not something I feel that someone can be convinced of. It is something
that is learned from experience, our one learns on one's own. For me, someone
who takes the time to raise the livestock, knows the experience of raising it,
then asking for and taking its life, then one really knows, and possibly can
still eat meat with a clear conscience. I believe that this was the main reason
why it was considered a sacrament in the days of old when an animal that was
raised and nurtured by you, and slaughtered by you, for sacrifice to the Gods.
Not that we do that any more, but I was just mentioning this to make a point of
how important the connection was to the whole-life experience of this being a
sacrifice. We've lost that connection because of the impersonality of everything
these days. Then of course there is the aspect that meat does not contain any
prana. Cindy, does this apply to fish too? I understand that meat from land
dwelling animals does not, but I wasn't sure if this applied to marine animals.

I do *not* agree though that plants experience the same thing when we chop them
up and consume them as animals do. This could be another topic of discussion on
its own, but suffice it to say, that I do not agree with that.

In any event, pardon my rambling, but it is a subject that I feel is so basic
that many times we, as a community, miss how important it really is to take a
long hard look at. There is more to it than meets the eye (again, pardon the
pun!)

Regards,

Sergei

    I can't believe how extreme things can get in the US, under the name
    of the Government! Raiding Health food shops, I can't believe it!!!
    
    >Spiritual aspect of fresh veg...
    
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					"Wisdom cannot be given,"
    					"It must be learnt"
    					  - Zen, "Liberator"'s ship-
    					    board computer, Blake's 7,
    					    (series 1)...
    
    I'd like to make a point, here. *All* my comments previously were
    directed at vegetarians who, on the whole, eat easily available veg,
    not true fresh, organic food - I really can't dispute that would be the
    best possible diet (but I would add that I don't believe real fresh
    meat would cock things up! :-) if you see what I mean).
    
    								- JIM CAD*

    You guys are very convincing..

    Re.10         
    
    Sergei,
    
    About fish and marine life - my own experience - just over two years
    ago while snorkeling on Cozumel, I'd pretty much given up eating meat
    by then, but still was eating fish and marine life.
    
    While snorkeling one day and literally playing with the fish for most
    of the day - I went out to dinner that night, ordered fish, and it was 
    very difficult for me to get it down.  Though I occasionally eat marine
    life that aren't fish now (shrimp, crab, scallops...but not lobster), 
    even that has fallen by the wayside for the most part.  
    
    Cindy

    re .7
    
    Sorry, Jim.  I *was* talking about big industry only (you know, the
    mass production kind in it for the money); I should have made myself
    more clear.  I was also talking more to the slaughtering process.  Your
    family may take great care of the animals while they're alive, but do
    you really know how they're handled at the slaughter house?
    
    Best,
    Michelle

    
    Sergei,
    
    Went back and read more of your points...
    
    About prana and marine life - it is my understanding that if anything
    is killed and begins to decay immediately, then there is no prana left
    in it.  On the other hand, regarding fruits and vegetables, they take a
    lot longer to decay...and will even continue to sprout for quite a
    while after being picked.  
    
    Leave out a fish and a piece of fruit for the same length of time, and 
    see which one begins to smell first.  (;^)
    
    Cindy                      

Re: .-1

Thanks for the clarification Cindy. Yes, I can understand the association you
make with the decaying process and prana. Generally then, I understand you to
say that if the animal (in this case fish) is caught and eaten in the same day,
or even within hours, then it will have some prana left, as opposed to meat on
the shelf for days. Of course, we haven't even touched on the cardiovascular
damage eating red meat causes, but I wanted to get more clarification on when
and where prana may be present in the food we eat.

Just as a side note, I am not saying that being vegetarian is easy, or that any
diet I may choose is good for anyone else, just that primarily eating
vegetables (and there are some excellent vegetarian cook books out there, I
highly recommend From a Monestary Kitchen, many recipes which hardly take any
time at all), organic ones, significantly decreases the risk factor of health
problems relating to regular consumption of processed, chemically treated,
contaminated or otherwise "pumped-up" foods, which we don't need.

I will admit though, that I feel *much* healthier and happier having cut-out
*all* red meat and poultry, and I am working on the fish (as you can probably
tell).

One thing I will share with everyone in my experience with eating vegetarian:
One of the most important things to making this work is *planning ahead*. That
is, taking the time to sit down for maybe an hour a week to plan out all your
meals for a week, which recipes you are going to use, and making a shopping list
from it. I have found this is the only way I can stick to my diet that way.
As far as nutrition goes, that has never been a problem for me because I always
make sure that every meal has something from the following:
	Green Vegetables
	Grain
	Protein (beans or bean curd, about once a week I eat fish for this just
		 for variety)

It takes a little more time, that is, you can't just stuff alot of things in
your grocery cart and figure out what you're going to eat day to day, but it is
worth it to take care of yourself, and of course, once you get into the habit
then it will be second nature. It can even be fun!

Regards,

Sergei

    boy is that the truth

    
    My goal is to grow all my own vegetables and herbs and fruit.  
    I want to have a green house and a root cellar.
    
    Carole

    me too

    
    Having your own garden is also a great stress reliever.  At the
    end of the day I'm usually pretty stressed out from work,  I go
    home and putter around the garden for about an hour and I  forget
    all about work.  It's like working meditation..
    
    Hi Sergei...
    
    Adele
    

    Have you ever seen a tiger eat carrots ?
    Have you ever seen an elephant eat meat ?
    Have you ever seen a snake eat apple ?
    
    I look at it this way - Each creature is made to be either a vegetarian
    or a non-vegetarian. It has been my personal observation that going
    against the laws laid down by mother nature do not always bring
    positive results.  
    
    I wonder what adam and eve were meant to be - Vegetarian or
    non-vegetarian ? 
    
    
    A STRICT vegetarian,
    
    TVS 

    
    All of this is so arcane and subjective that it has put me off
    from my food! ;-)
    
    How about something coming a little closer to a scientific study?
    
    Prana?  Decay rates?  What if I kill an animal and immediately 
    eat its raw flesh, does that absolve me of the prana problem?
    If there's no energy in it, then why do carnivores continue to
    survive?
    
    And plants have no consciousness, experience no pain?  I don't know
    if I believe yes or no on these questions, but I wouldn't even bother
    trying to judge.  You can't hear a plant scream when you cut it down,
    but you can hear an animal if you harm it.  
    
    By saying, "I don't *believe* a plant experiences pain (or really
    anything at all)" is really not saying anything.  You could just as
    well ignore an animals cries of pain and utter the same meaningless
    words.
    
    When someone enters the room and appears angry about something, do
    you automatically empathize with that anger and feel it yourself?
    You might decide that they are simply acting.  You could tell your-
    self their anger is not real.
    
    My point is there is no way to know what is really going on in 
    anothers consciousness.  And if plants have consciousness we may
    very well never realize it.
    
    The bottom line is that there is no justice.  Life has and always
    will feed on life.  It isn't fair.  It just is.
    
    Now where's that 'burger? ;-)
    
    guy

    I know what you mean, guy.

    Humans are omnivores, as are many other animals.  Most humans can
    live on a vegetarian diet, but a few can't -- even among those who
    have tried.
    
    Even a horse can eat meat, and derive energy from it!  (It has to be
    dried and ground small so that they'll take it into their mouths, but
    they'll eat it.)  Source:  _The_Castle_of_the_Otter_ by Gene Wolfe.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    re: .26
    
    The difference between us and monkeys/apes is evolution. ;-)
    
    
    guy

    and some monkeys are also omnivores.  A vegetarian I work with claims
    that our intestinal tract is so long that we're clearly meant to
    vegetarian, but I've also read that things move along usually within
    12 hours, so it doesn't matter.
    
    As far as the spirituality aspect, I always thank the Higher Power for
    my meal, whatever it is.  That's life in the food chain !
    
    karl

    Re: .22 (Adele)
    
    Hello Adele! Long time no hear/see...back from France?
    
    I will strongly agree that working a garden (or growing anything plant
    or animal) is definitely a meditation on what I call The Unconditional
    Forever Giving Earth Mother and all her blessed children!
    
    ...highly recommended (but hard to do in a city, which is where my
    situation is right now!).
    
    BTW, Re:Mayan info, etc. I am about to embark on a nice ten day
    vacation so unless I get the chance to enter something in before I
    leave (rather unlikely I think), it will be when I get back. As a
    related note to the Planetary Consciousness (Mary) the last Baktun we
    are in now (last time period before the end of the calendar) is the one
    of Transformation of Matter, within as well as without. Food for
    thought.

    I guess it's time to transform now.

RE: (a few back)

Guy,
	Thanks for entering that note, it kind of says what I feel, but I think
due to my previous notes I held back from saying those things again... the
discussion here did seem to me to be "arcane and subjective", seemingly trying
to uphold vegetarianism by use of abstract ideas that we can't prove.

	As for digestinal tracts etc... you could also say, why do we have
incisors then? (Claims of vestigial remnants of a bye-gone day pour in!) :-)
BUT, how's about considering that the length of the intestie is the remnant of
our old selves... the appendix has oft been cited as possibly being used to
help digest/ingest tough plant materials. It has now withered away, yet I'd
say our teeth are (pretty much) the same nowadays. It seems more logical to
me to assume we have evolved *to eat meat*, yet it seems in vogue to claim
the opposite to allow the "spritually-aware banner" to be hoisted by some
people as a shadow cover for their particular dietary idiosyncracies (sp?).

	The subject matter is prone to become entangled in argument however,
because "vegetarianism" covers too many areas (e.g. a few):

	o Cruelty to animals/plants
	o The case for sentience of plants vs. the moral issues raised by above
	o Nutritional aspect of vege diet vs. meat diet (ok, spiritual/physical)
	o The topic of additives to foodstuffs (maybe not just a vege issue)
	o Are we designed (biologically) to eat meat or veg ideally?

	... etc... etc ...

								- JIM CAD*

    
    Re.24
    
    Guy,
    
    About carnivores and the prana problem...there are other ways to take
    in prana - through the air, the water, etc.
    
    Cindy

    Hey Cindy, ... I was thinking about this over the weekend and I was
    just wondering....
    
    How much prana is there in a piranha?
    
    sorry... the devil made me do it. :-)
    
    mary

                                                      
    I'll get a good definition from my books and get back to you, Cliff.
    
    Mary - since they eat live flesh...well...[chomp!]
    
    Cindy

    Prana, as I understand it, is raw energy which can be assimilated into
    the human system through the proper manner of breathing and, to a lesser
    degree, through one's diet.
    
    But then, I could be wrong.
    
    Richard

    
    Okay, so from the standpoint of prana, how is the lack of it in your
    food (no matter what type: plant or meat) harmful?  Allowing that prana
    is necessary shouldn't preclude the ingestion of low/no prana foods.
    
    Beth

From: "Your Healing Hands - The Polarity Experience", by Richard Gordon

Life-Force

Life-force is a subtle fom of electromagnetic energy.  It is the 
animating current of life and a psysiological reality in the body.

Through the centuries, life-force has been called by different names by 
many people.  It is not a recent discovery.  

  - Christ called it 'light';  [a.k.a the Holy Spirit - CP]
  - the Russians in their psychic research have called it 'bioplasmic' energy; 
  - Wilhelm Reich referred to it as 'orgone energy'; 
  - East Indian yogis call it 'pran' or 'prana'; 
  - Reichenbach spoke of it as 'odic force'; 
  - to the Kahunas, it is 'mana'; 
  - Paracelsus called it 'munia'; 
  - the usual Chinese term is 'chi' or 'ki'; 
  - alchemists' manuscripts speak of 'vital fluid'; 
  - Eeman described it as 'x-force'; 
  - Bruner named it 'bio-cosmic' energy; 
  - Hippocrates called it 'vis mediactrix naturae' (nature's life force).

It also has other names like bio-energy, cosmic energy, vital force, 
ether of space, etc.  I'm sure there are numerous others. 

    Re.38
    
    Beth,
    
    You can eat food with low amounts of prana.  Will it harm you?
    Depends on how decayed it is, etc.  It's my experience that these
    go hand in hand.  
    
    The best foods for you contains high amounts of prana.  This is 
    the perspective I am coming from.  For me then, meat does not 
    fall into this category, so I choose not to injest it because 
    I don't feel very energetic after doing so.
    
    You can experiment for yourself.  Go for a week only eating meat and
    canned vegetables and fruits - do not eat anything that is fresh - 
    then the next week (have meat if you must, but) eat a lot of fresh 
    vegetables and fruits (along with the meat) and see how you feel.
    
    To use an analogy, you can burn anything if a fire is hot enough,
    however burning dry wood is much more efficient than burning wet wood.
    (Dry wood = fresh food, wet wood = not fresh food)
    
    Cindy

Cindy,

	Not meaning to sound malicious or mocking, but you seem to be taking
a normal physical effect (side-effect) to "spiritual level" IMHO.

	Your observations are probably correct and probably reproducible, but
I can't see why you attribute it to prana levels? If you eat canned fruit &
shop bought meat vs all fresh you are ingesting aluminium (aluminum) from the
can, colourants and preservatives and sweeteners etc., etc... There are many,
many health books citing numerous side effects of various noxious substances
in food, and also side effects due to lack of mineral essences that WOULD be
abundant in fresh food.

	I have done much reading on life-force/prana/whatever_you_want_to_call_it
and I have NEVER seen mention of ingesting it from food, because it is super-
physical in nature. I assumed you would naturally absorb it in some other
fashion (e.g. in your sleep, or relaxed states - which is why, I believe that
"quick sleep: techniques refresh you, you haven't eaten any fresh food then!)

	I really think that prana is not a relevent issue in diet, whereas of
course the level of additives etc... will be, and whatever you want to avoid
you WILL be by eating fresh foodstuffs.

								- JIM CAD*

�    i'd rather eat to the music of mozart than to the music of m.c. hammer.
 

Ha! Ha! I LIKE it! (especially since your reply was from HAMER:: :-) )

								- JIM CAD*

This has been an interesting discussion. Coming from the Native American 
perspective, I can't see how earlier it was discussed that killing animals 
was bad and killing plants was not. From this perspective, it is all 
related. Plants are living beings but so are two legged people, 4 leggeds, 
winged people, standing people(trees) and stone people. I don't see any 
added spiritual benefit from plants. All things were created by Great 
Spirit.
	Having said all that, I also see many of the good points about the 
meat industry in this country and all the bad things that come from eating a 
lot of meat. I beleive for myself that eating a diet closer to vegie is 
better. But, I don't see in terms of "more" energy or in a spiritual sense. 
I think that the life-force is present in everything, including meat. Native 
Americans of the plains ate almost all meat and they had a higher spiritual 
sense and life-energy than most anyone. The difference is that the meat was 
not processed, was fresh, and that Great Spirit and the spirit of the animal 
were thanked with offerings and prayers. I think that is a key difference. 
The meat of our times is heavily processed, the animals shot full of 
chemicals and that can rob the meat of it's life-energy.

Sam

                                      
    Re.42
    
    Jim,
    
    Can you sense/feel your own energy field or the energy fields of others? 
    I can, to some degree.
    
    Once you can do that, you will be able to experiment at the energetic
    level, and understand things from this perspective.  Until that happens, 
    you will continue to only view things from the physical perspective...
    which is not wrong, but limited.  
    
    It was only a short two years ago - this month in fact - that I first 
    began to sense my own energy field.  I've been experimenting with the
    energetic realm since then, and eating meat is one of those things that
    depletes my energy field.
    
    I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I'm just sharing my
    experiences and answering questions here that are asked of me.
    
    Cindy

    
    Re.42
    
    Jim,
    
    Additional - food is not the ONLY way one absorbs prana.  There are 
    other ways - air, water, earth, and one other which escapes me right
    now (ether, perhaps).
    
    Food, however, is an *important* way to absorb prana.  
    
    Cindy

    
    I think an important thing to note when choosing foods for yourself is
    what is your lifestyle.  The nutrition required, and the best form to
    absorb, is different given activety level and type, physical health
    goals, and, I believe, genetic/cultural history.  Also, everyone should
    go for fresher foods.
    
    A doctor pointed out to me this morning that eskimos living the "old" 
    lifestyle (hunting and fishing, eating their meats RAW) do NOT have the 
    cholesterol problems of others who injest processed/cooked meats.  And,
    as someone else pointed out, canned foods have additives, and in
    general less nutritive benefits than fresh.
    
    I am picky about my foods.  I prefer fresh fruits and vegetables, use
    very little sugar and saturated fats, but do injest meats.  I don't
    think I could ever go fully vegetarian.  And with the way I do watch my
    fat intake, I still have a cholesterol problem.  High cholesterol is
    NOT just the fats you injest, but the calories you injest: unused
    "food" gets turned into fat, which affect your cholesterol levels. 
    Even with a weight loss, my levels stayed high; this is my genetic
    inheritance.  I may never get levels below 200.
    
    What I am trying to get at is that good sense about food is right, but
    that there is no ONE correct set of foods for everybody.
    
    Beth

RE: .45, Sam

Thanks for entering that, that is exactly what I was trying to get at, but
put in a much clearer form.

RE: 48, Beth

Much of the same, I feel a *correct* diet does not exclude meat, and that the
false assumption that vegetarianism is the *correct* way due to the abstinence
from meat is misguided. People may have their own reasons, of course.

Cindy,

	I can feel my energy field in certain circumstances, e.g. when I am
trying to calm someone who is in pain... I think you are perhaps not missing,
but misinterpreting my words about prana/diet?

	As a simple statement I'd posit that you would not feel any detriment
by adding meat to your diet so long as it is PURE, FRESH meat? Maybe you would
not agree. I agree with your statments re: nasty side-effects and fatigue, but
think this is likely due in whole to being shot full of chemicals (I made a
rather amusing typo then that was perhaps another view [sh*t full of chemicals]
:-))) ).

	Energy fields etc... would you agree that these are affected by the
influence of the mind, i.e. controllable by mind? Maybe, therefore, because
in your view meat WILL cause detriment to your energy field, it DOES do so
due to the mind's play in the matter? A self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps? I 
can see no logical reason why eating meat would DEPLETE energy? If it has 
some life force this does not make sense, and yet if it even has none I wonder
how it can REDUCE the energy already present. I must ask, was this fresh meat
or processed? Have you had opportunity to observe the results of eating fresh?

	My words on ingestion on prana come from the fact that you are the
first person I have ever heard suggest that you ingest (any of) it via food.
I thought that it being a super-material substance would suggest it more
natural to absorb it from the ether (or whatever?), or IMHO, even more likely
that it is absorbed direct through the super-material body/bodies when these
are less strictly associated with the physical, i.e. in sleep/meditation etc...

	I must agree with Sam on this one, but feel free to add further comment
to the discussion, it is quite an interesting one!

								- JIM CAD*

    .45
    I agree with Sam too.

    Cindy,

    	When I was recently at Kripalu, there was a person there (Mark
    David - no longer a resident but still connected) who was holding a
    nutrition workshop supposedly touting the "way of Kripalu" who said
    that meat should be included in your daily diet with the following
    provisions:

    	No more than 10% of your calories should come from meat.
    	
    	A vegetarian diet should be used for health reasons (cleansings,
    return from illness) but that once you are in the "maintenance mode"
    you should go back to eating some meat.

    	He counsels some of the long term residents at Kripalu and for
    some of them who have been vegetarians for a very long time, he is
    seeing anemia, tooth decay, and fatigue - for those individuals he
    "prescribes" some meat.

    	I mention this because I am assuming that you are getting a lot of
    your information about prana and food and energy from the teachings at
    Kripalu.
    
    	I over heard some residents who had "the day off" and had gone
    into town and what did they do? Had pancakes at an IHOP and then ate
    food at a Chinese resturant. Kind of like an "anti-food-holiday".

    	One interesting thing to note about our individual energy
    emissions, I was in the midst of a balancing energy workshop and when
    the woman got to my lower abdomen, I "felt/saw" lots of glowing
    golden light emitting from that area. When I called my husband that
    night, I told him that I thought I was pregnant, sure enough, one and
    one half weeks later, we tested and I am gloriously pregnant again.

    	Don't know if it had anything to do with the outstanding food that
    I ate while there, the energy balancing workshop, or with my own
    abilities, but I don't care, just one more of those great little
    stories that comes out Kripaula.

    				Wendy

                                                                     

    Terrific news Wendy, congratulations on your wonderful announcement!!
    
    Best wishes to you and your family,
    
    Ro
    

    
    Congratulations Wendy!
    
    Cindy

    Re .43

    >why is an avocado an aphrodiac?
    >why is fish good for the brain?
    
    Actually they do not have these properties, these old wives tales have
    been proved wrong time after time.

    As has been pointed out animals come in various categories. A cat for
    example is an obligate carnivore. Feed a cat a continuous vegetable diet
    and it will die. A dog however is actually not an obligate carnivore
    and can live on vegetarian diet. This is why you should never feed your
    cat a proprietary brand of dog food, some of them are totally vegetable
    produce.

    The monkey that I once had as a pet was mainly vegetarian but would
    occasionally eat meat, hot dogs were a favourite. He was also a better
    mouser than some cats that I've seen, the mice went the same way as the
    hotdogs.

    As to my own eating habits. Well having spent a lot of my youth living
    on a farm which was overrun with rabbits, I learned at an early age
    how to kill, skin and gut rabbits. I never had any problems eating them
    afterwards.

    Currently my diet is mainly meat, I cannot stand the taste of most
    cooked vegetables. However the meat that I eat in not "factory farmed".
    We have butcher's shops which specialise in free range meat. Also as
    both of us like to cook, most of our meals are cooked from scratch,
    very little comes from packets and the can opener is only ever used for
    opening the cats' food.

    My coronary arteries had their annual check up at the beginning of the
    year and were found to be remarkably clean. Whether this is my eating
    habits or my habit of drinking red wine I would not like to speculate.

    Jamie.

                                                                           
    Back to this topic...I didn't forget.  (;^)  More to follow as time
    permits.
    
    From: "What's Wrong With Eating Meat?", published by PCAP Publications,
    a definition:
    
    "Actually, the word 'vegetarian' does not come vrom 'vegetable' but
    rather from the Latin word 'vegetare', which means 'to enliven'.  When
    the Romans used the term 'homo vegetus', they referred to a vigorous
    and dynamically healthy person'. ..."
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    However for the sake of this discussion, we can stay with the meaning
    that 'vegetarian' means 'not a meat eater'.
    
    Wendy - I've been more-or-less a vegetarian for well over 10 years now,
    and it has been at least 7 years since I've purchased and prepared a
    piece of meat myself, excluding fish occasionally.  I remember this
    because at age 25 I had my first and only manicure.  The manicurist
    looked at my nails and hands and said, "Your hands and nails are in
    great shape.  You must be a vegetarian."  I replied, "Not totally, but 
    close."  I've only been visiting Kripalu for 2 years.  During my first
    visit, I scarfed up at least 3 vegetarian cookbooks from the shop. (;^) 
    
    Cindy

I was at the Reading Festival last weekend, and noticed lots of emaciated,
anaemic bodies laying around the Vegetarian Food tent...


!!!ONLY JOKING!!!		:-))))

								- JIM CAD*

    >"Actually, the word 'vegetarian' does not come vrom 'vegetable' but
    >rather from the Latin word 'vegetare', which means 'to enliven'.

    Well I just looked vegetarian in my dictionary and found that it has
    the etymology of the word to be "vegetable + arian". I'll check tonight
    in the OED. Where was your source on that one Cindy?

    Jamie.
    

Jamie,
	Don't be silly, that doesn't imply any form of superiority over the
rest of us!

								- JIM CAD*

    The "emaciated body" example of vegetarianism is what turns so many
    people off the idea, and why the rain forests are still being ripped
    out ever faster to provide space for grain to feed to cattle ....
    
    I've been almost 100% veg for 5 years now (I eat fish sometimes) and
    have never been fitter, except perhaps when I was an athletic teenager
    - but then it depends on your definition of 'fitness'.
    
    My wife and most of our kids (we've 4 between us) are veg and we're
    pushing for more organic veg to be available.  Shop in a different
    store every week and ask for organic, then when the storekeepers get
    together to discuss trends (they do), they get a message that lots of
    people want organic produce.  It works.  Our local Safeway and Giant
    foodstores stock wholesome organic food now.  And we buy it to make
    sure they keep stocking it.
    
    If you don't understand someone's principles about not murdering
    animals, and serious concern for the future of this fragile planet,
    then at least have the common courtesy to not mock.
    
    Brian
    
    PS - I had to move a piano yesterday for a 20-something year old who
    *looked* pretty strong and fit.  He smelled strongly of Big Mac diet.

�    If you don't understand someone's principles about not murdering
�    animals, and serious concern for the future of this fragile planet,
�    then at least have the common courtesy to not mock.

Murder? They are ANIMALS. They taste good (mostly). I eat them. My eating them
with not affect "the future of this fragile planet". That is mere idealist
fancy.

I wasn't mocking anyway, as most people who will have known me in DEJAVU for
a while know, I tend to view some things in a whimsical way, depending on how
the mood takes me. Perhaps you failed to notice the electronic-neon
disclaimer that I was joking?

And as for filling my intestines with "putrifying flesh". As most of the
population know, that is what they were designed for. I wouldn't fill my ear
with putrifying flesh. My ear wasn't designed for that. It wouldn't be very
nice.

								- JIM CAD*

    The word vegetable itself comes from the Low Latin word vegetabilis,
    meaning full of life. Vegetate itself comes from the Latin verb vegeo
    meaning to be lively. This is because the real meaning of vegetate is
    not to become vegetable-like or stupid and inert, as is commonly
    thought, but to grow as plants, or to live a do-nothing life, one of
    leisure.
    
    Linking that to the "benefits" of vegetarianism is tenuous to say the
    least.
    
    Laurie.

                                                 
    Knew I cud count on you Laurie!
    
    Jamie - I listed the source.  However, for the more nit-picky, (;^),
    here is their address:  PCAP Publications, 97-38 42nd Avenue, Corona,
    NY, 11368, contact is Ananda Marga.  If you're so inclined, you can 
    write to them to find out where they got it from. 
    
    (Oh gawd, before you ask, here goes - 'PCAP' stands for "Prevention of 
    Cruelty to Animals and Plants.)
    
    Jim - cut that out.  That's disgusting!  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    Re .62
    
    >Jamie - I listed the source.  However, for the more nit-picky, (;^),
    >here is their address:  PCAP Publications, 97-38 42nd Avenue, Corona,
    >NY, 11368, contact is Ananda Marga.  If you're so inclined, you can 
    >write to them to find out where they got it from. 
    
    Sorry Cindy just because they say it is so doesn't mean it is true.
    
    However I did look it up in the OED and found it to be as I said. There
    was some further interesting information; although the word was already
    in use it came into common useage after the foundation of the Vegetarian
    Society in Richmond in 1847.
    
    Jamie.

Jamie,

	Your personal name brings horrible, horrible images to mind! 

	:-)))))))

								- JIM CAD*

    What filthy minds some people have.

    Jamie.

                                                                 
    Re.63
    
    Sorry too, Jamie, however because the OED says something, doesn't mean
    it's necessarily 100% true either.
    
    It too was written by humans and not by an OM-niscient Being.  
    
    Cindy

    >It too was written by humans and not by an OM-niscient Being.  
    
    True Cindy. However the OED was compiled by people are disinterested
    parties in the matter of vegetarianism. While the people you quote are
    most definitely pro vegetarianism and are most likely to present it in
    the most positive form. 

    However I checked in several other dictionaries and they all gave the
    same origin for the word. Thus the simplest answer that fits the facts
    is I am right and you are wrong. However there is just the tiniest
    possibility that there is a world wide conspiracy by the compilers of
    dictionaries against vegetarians desperately trying to show them in
    the worst possible light.

    Jamie.
                                                        

    .60> Murder? They are ANIMALS.
    
    So, it's OK for us to eat human animals,too?  Or do you class yourself
    as 'vegetable' or a pile of 'minerals'?
    
    > They taste good (mostly).
    
    After you've not eaten meat for some time, they actually don't taste
    good.  Surprised me, that one, as I thought I'd never lose the desire
    for a thick bleu filet steak ....  After about a year away from meat, I
    tried some barbequed meat, and felt ill for hours afterwards until
    it had "cleared my system".
    
    Incidentally, the bit about the putrifying flesh is true.  The average
    american, but the time they're 40, has about 14 lbs of flesh in various
    states of putrifaction in his/her intestine (American Medical Journal),
    and one can assume that most Europeans could manage about 8-10 lbs,
    too, as they don't eat as much (in general).  The flesh has to putrify
    for the enzymes to be able to digest it, other wise it just goes
    straight through ....  On the other hand, when correctly chewed, yer
    average vegetable is pretty easy for your enzymes to digest, the only
    waste product being fibre and cellulose.
    
    Now, who can tell me the etymologicala source for "vegan" ? :^)
    
    Brian

                                                                
    Cliff,
    
    Just passing that info. along.  Was afraid someone would ask.  (;^)  
    So it's probably best if you drop a line to the authors and ask them,
    since that doesn't appear in the book.  I'm not directly affiliated
    with that organization and have no idea what they mean by it.
    
    Jamie,
    
    Thanks for the info.  Btw, since you have a copy of the OED, would you
    be so kind to look up what they have to say on the origin of the word
    'skull' please? 
    
    Cindy

    
    Re.69
    
    Brian,
    
    Thanks for that reply.  
    
    For whoever asked me earlier if the way I felt after eating meat was 
    'all in my mind', I can assure you that it is not, for what Brian wrote
    is .69 was true for me as well when I ate some meat after not doing so
    for a long period of time. 
    
    Cindy 

    >BTW, since you have a copy of the OED, would you be so kind to look up
    >what they have to say on the origin of the word 'skull' please?       

    Ok I'll look it up tonight. For the moment my desk dictionary gives the
    etymology as Middle English "skulle" and that seems to have had a
    Scandinavian origin.

    BTW Cindy, Harry sends his regards.

    For those who are worrying about the word "Murder" its meaning is
    unlawful killing.

    And for the ones who are worrying about how one can be cruel to plants
    may I suggest eating them while they are still alive and placing live
    plants in water then bringing it to the boil, would be good contenders.
              
    Jamie.

�    And for the ones who are worrying about how one can be cruel to plants
�    may I suggest eating them while they are still alive and placing live
�   plants in water then bringing it to the boil, would be good contenders.


Exactly what I was thinking.

� Feeling ill eating meat etc...

Probably why I've avoided sprouts and boiled cabbage since I was a kid! :-)

BTW - I don't class humans as the same as "animals", however to explain my
reasoning will almost certainly be futile, it will merely spark a rathe
longwinded rathole at a guess. It is to do with our having a `spark' of Divinity
and various bits and pieces in the Bible that have given clues that we
possess a certain "element" that animals do not... another topic perhaps?

								- JIM CAD*

<<< Note 1706.69 by DCOPST::BRIANH::NAYLOR "Knowledge is naught without wisdom" >>>
                          -< 'semi-' humorously .... >-

[ ... ]
        
>    After you've not eaten meat for some time, they actually don't taste
>    good.  Surprised me, that one, as I thought I'd never lose the desire
>    for a thick bleu filet steak ....  After about a year away from meat, I
>    tried some barbequed meat, and felt ill for hours afterwards until
>    it had "cleared my system".

That hasn't been my experience. I was Vegetarian for 2� years, before I
visited America/Atlanta and my first real American/Mexican restuarant. One
Beef Fajitas and several Michelobs later, my Vegetarianism dissapeared. No
ill effects whatsover, except a bigger tummer.

I have no hangups about eating meat. I'd prefer to think that they were
treated humanely and getting slaughtered by being shot thru the head rather
than the unpleasant factory farming practices which now seem to be more
common. (I can sense a Jamie Anderson 'when I were a lad working in a
slaughterhouse in Embra' story coming on ...). 

Dougie

     <<< Note 1706.73 by FORTY2::CADWALLADER "Reaping time has come..." >>>
           -< But all this still doesn't mean it's RIGHT or BETTER! >-

[ ... ]

>BTW - I don't class humans as the same as "animals", 

I do. Civilization is a loosely structured mechanism for protecting the
majority. In many parts of the world human atrocities are clearly in
evidence where people resort to their basic instincts very rapidly; e.g
Hunger and Sexual Appetite and a capacity to hate.

There are thousands dying in the third world, yet yesterdays headlines
featured ONE very expensive transplant case in the UK, where a baby is in
danger of dying because of the lack of a donor. Who cares? I don't. I would
care if that baby was mine, and I would rather see thousands die in Somalia
rather than my child die. I'm not civilised, I'm an animal, and I know it.

Dougie

Dougie,

� human atrocities are clearly in
�evidence where people resort to their basic instincts very rapidly; e.g
�Hunger and Sexual Appetite and a capacity to hate.

Leave DECits out of this! :-))))

								- JIM CAD*

    .76
    
    I wonder sometimes .. if one gives up eating meat, does one then loose
    a certain fierceness in one's nature?
    
    I mean... animals eat other animals here on this planet... and there is
    a very fierce nature to existence sometimes.  
    
    If you give up eating meat, do you (in effect) remove yourself from 
    the competition of the food chain or do you set yourself up to be
    the prey of your other more fierce cousins?
    
    Just wondering and all...

    Put it this way, let's leave the dogs to eat other dogs.....
    
    :^)

    What if the dogs want to eat you? :-)  Vegetables don't put up much of
    a fight for life.  Life is worth fighting for... don't you think?
    
    I don't know... 

    I think you missed the subtlety of my misquote ....

    Oh :-)  That's because I pretty dense sometimes... 

    
    Re .78  (Mary)
    
    >        ... if one gives up eating meat, does one then loose a certain
    > fierceness in one's nature?
    
    Did you mean "loose" or "lose"? The way I read it, but I think that I'm
    wrong, means that we are unleashing (loosing) fierceness, but that
    seems to be contrary to what you're trying to say....
    
    Confused,
    
    Marilyn

    Re .69

    >Incidentally, the bit about the putrifying flesh is true.  The average
    >american, but the time they're 40, has about 14 lbs of flesh in various
    >states of putrifaction in his/her intestine (American Medical Journal),
    >and one can assume that most Europeans could manage about 8-10 lbs,
    >too, as they don't eat as much (in general).  The flesh has to putrify
    >for the enzymes to be able to digest it, other wise it just goes
    >straight through ....

    Well I think that your quote is grossly inaccurate. 
    
    Meat entering your system first reaches the stomach, there it sits for
    a while getting mixed with hydrochloric acid then it is off down into
    the gut as a liquid. In the first stages enzymes are added then the
    amino-acids are released and absorbed through the gut wall. By now the
    mixture can in no way be considered as putrifying meat. Next compounds
    that have to be disposed off are added to the mixture and finally
    excess water is removed to form a solid end result.

    Now the total end to end time is a bit less than 48 hours. This means
    that, if your figures are correct, the average American must by the age
    of 40 must be stuffing 7 pounds of meat a day into his system. I can
    assure you that the average European does not consume anything like 4
    to 5 pounds of meet per day.

    Meat can be eaten and digested fresh, however some things like game
    birds and steak are better when aged for a few days. The putrefaction
    process makes them tastier, more tender and easier to digest and,
    provided there are no bugs living on the meat it does you no harm. That
    being said, I would caution anyone against eating putrifying vegetables
    as it will make you very ill indeed.

    >On the other hand, when correctly chewed, yer average vegetable is
    >pretty easy for your enzymes to digest, the only waste product being
    >fibre and cellulose.
    
    Yes an interesting point that, about chewing, Unless the cell walls of
    plants have been broken you cannot digest it at all. So eating uncooked
    vegetables does require a lot of effort if you want to live off them.

    Re. Cindy and the etymology of the word "Skull" going back further than
    Middle English the path becomes rather hazy. There is an old Norwegian
    word "Skult" and the word "Scolle" did appear it South Western texts of
    the 13th - 14th centuries. But the origin appears to be rather
    obscure.

    Jamie's excellent description of the digestive process agrees with my
    memories from school biology lessons, and with the details I checked
    last night. However, let's just assume for a moment that the
    "putrefying flesh" part is true. Yes, I know it's difficult, but purely
    rhetorically, you understand.
    
    So what? If it is true, then surely it's what the 'gut' was designed to
    do. We are, after all equipped with the teeth of a carnivore, and a
    digestive system capable of dealing with both meat and vegetation. If
    that's the way it works, then that's the way it works.
    
    Laurie.

SWAM1::MILLS_MA 
    
    Yes Marilyn.. you're right... I ment lose.  
    
    I wonder if perhaps we need some of that fierceness in order to 
    survive here.

    Mary,
    
    I agree and not, after all, we survived as a species due, in part at
    least, to that fierceness. On the other hand, look at what we've
    become.
    
    Maybe we should go back to our roots (:^). (groan)
    
    Marilyn 

    Maybe we should, Marilyn... :-)
    
    We are what we are, I guess... 
    
    Do you think the future will require us to be any less fierce than the
    past?

    Do you think the future will require us to be any less fierce than the
    past?

I believe we may coming down to a phase where things may get a little rough. 
The people that I study with talk about this. The earth changes that are 
coming could make things rough for awhile. We may need to re-learn how to 
hunt again and provide for our families and to protect ourselves from the 
para-military types that will want to take instead of sharing with us.

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin
Sam

    I know, Sam... I know...  hopefully it won't come to that... but..
    prepare for the worst and hope for the best (as my Grandmother used to
    say).

    The only instrument capable of measuring the thickness of the veneer of
    civilisation, is a micrometer.

    Jamie.

    RE: -1
    
    My God, how true that is.
    
    Laurie.

    Oh oh... we all agree on something :-)
    
    Maybe this is one of those omens or something. :-)

From: "The Ayurvedic Cookbook", by Amadea Morningstar with Urmila Desai, p.286

About Meat, Wine, and Smoking

Alcohol, tobacco, red meat, and other items were not considered evil or 
inherently unhealthy by the ancient sages.  They were considered 
Tamasic.  [Definition of 'tamasic' to follow.]

Ayurveda has been a predominantly vegetarian form of healing for
centuries due to the religious practices and perspectives of the vast
majority of Hindu practitioners.  Yet originally it was not designed
strictly for vegetarians.  Fresh meat of young animals, fowl, and fishes
were considered nourishing, when the animals were found in their natural
surroundings and killed by non-poisonous means, such as arrows. 

And yet it is highly unlikely that the sages would recommend most meat, 
fish, and fowl as it is produced today, under artificial conditions with 
no concern for the animal or the violence used in its death.  
Non-violent methods of living in the world were considered the foremost 
factor in promoting longevity and abundant 'ojas' (energy), more important 
than any food or herb.  A return to this ancient wisdom is critical at this 
point for the longevity of all beings on the planet.  ...

Wine was used in ancient practice to dispel fatigue and enhance 
digestion.  There are detailed descriptions of alcoholic preparations 
for healing included in the classic texts.  Draksha is perhaps the best 
known example of an herbal wine for digestive stimulation.  A variety of 
recipes for herbal wines are given in Frawley's excellent "Ayurvedic 
Healing".

Smoking was also used medicinally, with precise discussion of how, when, 
and what to smoke.  Moderation and appropriateness was considered in 
each of these.  ...  

Like other substances, it is recommended if you use these items, that 
they be utilized with respect and awareness.

=======================================================================
p.289

Q:  What about sattvic, rajasic and tamasic foods?

A:  'Sattvic' foods are those which purify the body and calm the mind.
    They are fresh foods.  Pure milks, ghee (clarified butter), and
    asparagus are some examples.

    'Rajasic' foods stimulate the body and mind to action.  Coffee,
    garlic, onions, peppers, and hot spices would all fit into this
    category.

    'Tamasic' foods are those which dull the mind and incline the body
    toward inertia or disease.  Spoiled food, chemicals, fried foods,
    meat, cheeses, and heavy sweets are among these.  Alcohol can be
    both rajasic and tamasic for some people, as it first stimulates
    them to activity or rage then to sedation (or even stupor).


Q:  What about supplements?

    ...[talking about calcium and bones in prior paragraph]...about bones, 
    concern for osteoporosis is widespread.  And yet a number of studies
    have indicated that the balance of calcium to phosphorous is as
    important or more important than simply getting enough calcium 
    alone.  As a meat-eating nation, our calcium to phosphorous ratio is
    4:1.  For healthy bones, you need a ratio closer to 1:1. 

    One way to do this is to try and take lots of calcium supplements.
    But another way is to shift the ratio of foods you are eating.
    Seventh Day Adventists, vegetarians by practice, tend to have 
    substantially lower rates of osteoporosis than the average American.
    They eat no phosphorous-rich meat.  

    High phosphorous in meat, chicken, and most fish, can throw off our 
    calcium balance.  Dairy products, dark leafy greens and some fish 
    (salmon and sardines especially) have a better balance of calcium in 
    the bones.  These are especially prevalent in fruits, vegetables and 
    grains.  A healthy calcium-rich vegetarian diet is an important first 
    step in the prevention of osteoporosis.  That, and making sure that 
    you do absorb your minerals, whether from food or supplements, through
    good digestion.

    It's swings and roundabouts. When I was vegetarian my intake of dairy
    produce increased; I started eating more eggs, cheese and related dairy
    products. I put on weight, and had a fair bit of heartburn problems.
    
    You can have a healthy vegetarian diet, but simply switching from meat
    to meat free doesn't automatically make it so.
    
    I'm very sceptical of claims by food manufacturers such as "purifies
    the blood". This is meaningless and baloney.
    
    An excellent readable text on health food is "Health or Hoax" by
    Professor Arnold Bender. I read it cover to cover, not something I tend
    to do with factual books. I'll get an ISBN if anyone is interested.
    
    Dougie
    

          <<< Note 1706.94 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "worlds beyond this" >>>
                             -< 4u Jim C....(;^) >-


>And yet it is highly unlikely that the sages would recommend most meat, 
>fish, and fowl as it is produced today, under artificial conditions with 
>no concern for the animal or the violence used in its death.  
    
    A violent death is not necessarily a painful death. An overdose of
    parocetomal may not sound violent, but given the choice between a
    bullet through the head, and death by internal bleeding, I know what I
    would chose.
    
>Smoking was also used medicinally, with precise discussion of how, when, 
>and what to smoke.  Moderation and appropriateness was considered in 
>each of these.  ...  

    I would contest this. Unlike alcohol, any amount of smoking is bad for
    you. Smoking in moderation is a contradiciton in terms.
    
    Dougie
    

    Hmmm... depends on *what* you smoke I suppose....
    
    

    How anyone can take a book by someone called "A. Bender" seriously, I
    don't know.
    
    Laurie.

>    parocetomal may not sound violent, but given the choice between a

Parocetomal (paracetamol) is European for acetominophen, sold in the US under
the brand name of Tylenol.

I got all the vowels correct, but I just threw them in a random manner at
the consonants to see what would happen. I really miss DECspell.

Dougie

    re .98
    
    Laurie... you do have a certain charm.. no doubt about it. :-) ... that
    was a good one.

    Why, thank you, Mary.
    
    Laurie. ;^)

    You and I have a great deal in common actually. :-) ... and I rather
    like your attitude (and Jamie's).. it keeps the fluff down below 
    breathing level.

    
    Regarding calcium to phosphorus ratios:  I heard of this from someone
    else recently, although he explained it as meats introduce acids to the
    system, which causes the body to "use up" calcium (to restore some
    balance to the body/blood).  If you aren't ingesting the calcium, it is
    pulled from the bones (already known that this happens: if a pregnant
    woman does not ingest enough calcium to support bone growth of the
    fetus, it is pulled from her bones - the fetus gets what it needs one
    way or another).
    
    
    Still, all of this seems to point to a "proper/balanced" diet, but not
    necessarily a vegetarian one.  Perhaps it time to start raising my own
    meat ;-)
    
    Beth

    My neighbors would freak if I started keeping chickens in the back
    yard... but up in Maine I could do it. :-)

    Re .104

    >If you aren't ingesting the calcium, it is pulled from the bones
    >(already known that this happens: if a pregnant woman does not ingest
    >enough calcium to support bone growth of the fetus, it is pulled from
    >her bones - the fetus gets what it needs one way or another). 

    Well you have the end result correct but the reasoning is wrong.

    Bone is being constantly being absorbed and new bone formed, I should
    point out that this is happening at a very slow rate. Now the calcium
    that is released from this is up for grabs by the rest of the body.

    In the case of you being calcium deficient you will not be able to
    replace the calcium in the bones. In the case of the pregnant mother
    the baby gets first grab at almost everything and if the calcium levels
    are low it well use up all that is available and the mother will start
    to lose bone mass. But the baby cannot leach the calcium it needs from
    its mother's bones.

    I should also point out that calcium deficiency is seldom caused by
    lack of calcium in the diet. The most common causes hormonal unbalance
    which stops you absorbing calcium and vitamin deficiency which stops
    you from using it once you have absorbed it.

    Jamie.

    Jamie,
    
    >I should also point out that calcium deficiency is seldom caused by
    >lack of calcium in the diet. The most common causes hormonal unbalance
    >which stops you absorbing calcium and vitamin deficiency which stops
    >you from using it once you have absorbed it.
    
    Thanks for this info.  I've been trying to understand why it won't hurt
    me too much to cut the dairy products out of my diet (got some problems
    digesting the stuff), given the importance of calcium to a woman.
    
    Beth