Conference hydra::dejavu

  I believe there has been such investigations, at least on the placebo side.
It's been a while, but it seems much of the placebo effect is associated with
endomorphs and other such blocks. Most (not all) placebos essentially mask the
symptoms, they do not erase the cause. I'd have to dig a bit, but I believe you
can find much of this in the medical journals (JAMA is always a good source).

Better look up "endomorph".  I'll bet you meant "endorphins".

---Pete

re .2,.3: 

Upon occasions, I've been accused of being an endomorph; then I go on a diet.

Also:

	There are allied phenomena alluded to in other notes, such as hypnotic
suggestions reportedly causing physical injury (not a good thing to do);
additionally, the phenomenon of stigmata falls roughly into this area.
These *do* raise interesting questions.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

I think that what we are talking about here is the ability of the mind
to control the physical body.  I, too, have witnessed such things as
an ice cube raising a blister if I person under hypnosis is told that it
is something very hot - the mind tells the nerveous system that the touch
is hot and the physical body takes protective measures, ie. raises a blister.

I once spent an extended period flat on my back in a military hospital.  As
an exercise dreamed up to fight boredom, I decided to see if I could will
a change in my heartbeat rate.  After some practice when checking myself it
seemed to be working -- the final test was the reaction I got from a nurse
when I tried it while she was taking my pulse -- it worked!

But all of the is really a sideline discussion to the basic subject of
Psychic phenomena.

			Bill Williamson

    
      I seem to recall a field of medicine known as psychosomatics.
    No one knows why it works, but it does...

    My 'better half' becomes quite sombre whenever we run across those
    ads in the supermarket tabloids for dolls-as-devices (cf. Voudoun
    in whatever form): "Playing with dolls is deadly serious stuff."
    I'm (literally) afraid it is; now that THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK
    is in the theatres, I believe we'll be in for a rash of stuck
    dolls, etc. & not for the better. Please note, noters.
    
    - Boleslaw 

    do placebos work better on smarter people?

    It's more faith than intelligence.

RE: .8
    
    I would say "belief" or "hope" rather than "faith".  The last term
    is loaded with too many (inappropriate) associations.
    
RE: .7
    
    That's an interesting question for which I know no answer.  There
    is no *obvious* pattern (either way), and the placebo effect is
    one of those phenomena which, though acknowledged as real, are avoided
    as "not quite respectable" enough for scientific study.  In other
    words, very little scientific work has been done studying its
    characteristics.
    
    					Topher    

    A great deal of thought HAS been given to this subject by
    various mystical organizations.
    
    Voodoo, curses and mental poisioning all play on superstition.
    
    You may recall that ALL the archeologists associated with the
    Tutankhamen find died mysteriously or under unusual circumstances.
    They ALL suffered from mental poisoning after reading the curse
    found in Tut's tomb.
    
    By taking a suggestion, positive or negative, into your subconscious,
    you will act on it. This can be used for good, whether to lose
    weight, break bad habits, or to just achieve a better outlook on
    life.
    
    Likewise, it can be used for evil purposes, by those equally trained
    in the art of mental poisioning. But YOU have the choice to accept
    or reject theses thoughts.
    
    We have to work at not letting negative thoughts and attitudes
    creep into our subconscious. It is no easy task, indeed, living
    as we do surrounded by hate, fear, jealousy, war, prejudice .......
    
    

    Why, no, I don't recall that *all* the archaeologists associated
    with Tut's tomb died mysteriously.  Some lived to ripe old ages.
    What I do remember is that the archaeological team finally admitted
    to having made up the curse, so as to limit graverobbing problems.
    
    						Ann B.

    On the topic of Voodoo... I read a book lately (fictional) about
    an Anthropologist researching modern Voodoo as an extension of African
    religion in the city (New York).  The book was called "The Religion"
    and the treatment indicates that the religion discussed (Santeria)
    was actually practised.  I was wondering if anybody knew anything
    about it.
    
    			Just curious,
    				George
    

    Re .12 (George):
    
    >....................... The book was called "The Religion"
    >and the treatment indicates that the religion discussed (Santeria)
    >was actually practised.  I was wondering if anybody knew anything
    >about it.
                                      
    Santeria has voodoo aspects, but primarily is an admixture of ancient
    Mexican/Central_American worship with a Catholic overlay.  It is
    practiced in some barrios and is also called Brujeria (meaning,
    approximately, "witchcraft," "magic_practice," or "sorcery").  It
    has borrowed a lot from different traditions, most notably (recently)
    from different forms of spiritism.  Its interpretation of the Tarot
    cards is different from the usual in many cases (e.g., The Sun is
    considered a positive card in conventional Tarot and is negative
    to a practitioner of Santeria/Brujeria).  Some aspects of it are
    in evolution even as this is being written; currently, Santerian
    practitioners do use some voodoo practices, such as animal sacrifice
    (usually chickens).
    
    The movie, _The Believers_ isn't too accurate, I understand.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

>    Santeria has voodoo aspects, but primarily is an admixture of ancient
>    Mexican/Central_American worship with a Catholic overlay.  It is
>    practiced in some barrios 

...and in Denver, Colorado!

A friend of mine there had heard about a shop selling some of the best 
essential oils available, and I wanted some rose oil for my opal.  Rose oil 
represents the Virgin Mother Mary in this tradition.  The shop sold all sorts 
of magickal devices for any occasion and was closer to Five Points than anyone 
really wants to get.  Along with Santerian magick, some sort of South African 
magickal supplies were available.  What type of voodoo is practiced in South 
Africa?  (I suppose I should go back and read the previous stuff, which I did 
read but don't remember too well, so if that's the case, Never Mind).

Meredith

RE: .13, .14

�    Santeria has voodoo aspects, but primarily is an admixture of ancient
�    Mexican/Central_American worship with a Catholic overlay.  It is
�    practiced in some barrios 

> ...and in Denver, Colorado!

My folks live in Miami and tell me it's pretty frequent down there, dead
chickens and all.  Take a look at the movie 'Angel Heart'.

Terry

    
    
    Just curious, Meredith, but where in Denver was this shop?  What
    was the name?
    
    	Jayna

Get back with you on the name and whereabouts after this weekend...

I wasn't paying attention, except to know that it was in or near Five Points.

Movies, movies, mooovvviiieeesss.

Yeah, great stuff movies. Trouble is you can't tell the fiction from
the fact in movies.

Angle Heart was very entertaining. 

Santeria is recognized under the first
amendment. Too bad about all the chickens though. Some of them, them
special white spotless chickens, go for about $20,000 a piece. Think Jim
Bakker could run his bankrupt pleasure park on white chickens? maybe he
should go into the business of selling sacrifices... 

    	But one person's fact is another man's fiction.  This has
    	been repeatedly shown here in DEJAVU.
    
    						Carla
    

    
    RE: .19
    	
    	I wont argue with that but I will add another version.
    
    "One persons perceptual fact is another mans perceptual fiction"

                                                           
    Craig

My first and last entry to this topic:

(1) The movie "The Believers" is based on the book "The Religion". Steve is 
    correct in saying that the movie wasn't too accurate -- especially since 
    it really doesn't follow the book too closely (what else is new?).

(2) I must say, however, that Steve is not entirely correct about Santeria. 
    Santeria is NOT primarily Mexican/South American, but is African in 
    origin. He is correct in that it is practiced by spanish - speaking 
    people, and that it does have a catholic overlay. But if you look at
    the saints worshipped/prayed to/used in rituals, you will find that 
    they are actually African (Voudoun) Gods and Goddesses in "christianized" 
    form. Santeria is a unique magical/mystical system which started among 
    Spanish - speaking people, but it's origin and basic structure is 
    African.

   An off - the - wall comment: I am impressed by the vast knowledge of 
various "Dejavu related" subjects shown by contributers in this notesfile. 
In view of that I am equally saddened by the lack of understanding and/or 
serious interest shown here in the spirituality developed in Africa. It seems 
that people know a great deal about European (Wicca, Christianity, and others), 
Asian (Tao, Buddha, Yoga), Jewish (Kabalah), and "Native American" 
spirituality, but African spirituality is ignored, misrepresented, 
misinterpreted, or treated frivolously (as seen in many previous entries in 
this particular file). Considering the fact that some modern Wiccans have 
borrowed from Voudoun, Santeria is based on Voudoun, and that Voudoun gods 
and spirits are similar in many ways to early Christian saints and angelic 
heirarchies, I am dismayed by its poor treatment here. Even the title of 
this topic belittles it by mentioning "Voodoo" in conjunction with placebos.

   Of course, while I am dismayed, I am not really surprised. This is just 
another example of how anything and everything African has been trivialized 
by Western culture over the centuries.

                                                 -Robert Brown III
                                          (Who is also of African Origin)

    Re .21 (Robert):
    
>My first and last entry to this topic:

    Well, I do hope not of this Conference.  Maybe we can even get you
    to change your mind about the topic. :-)
    
>(2) I must say, however, that Steve is not entirely correct about Santeria. 
>    Santeria is NOT primarily Mexican/South American, but is African in 
>    origin. He is correct in that it is practiced by spanish - speaking 
>    people, and that it does have a catholic overlay. But if you look at
>    the saints worshipped/prayed to/used in rituals, you will find that 
>    they are actually African (Voudoun) Gods and Goddesses in "christianized" 
>    form.        
 
    My studies showed as much ancient Central American influence as
    anything.  However, there seem to be interesting parallels in some
    of the ancient worship schemes, so it's not impossible that there
    was cross-fertilization of the cultures (withouyt the necessity
    of an Atlantis, by the way).  Whatever else, one can consider Santerian
    "saints" something outside Catholicism.
    
    >Santeria is a unique magical/mystical system which started among 
    >Spanish - speaking people, but it's origin and basic structure is 
    >African.
     
    "Origin" I'm willing to leave open; "structure" could be African.
     A problem here is that Santeria is a very "eclectic" system, borrowing
    from everywhere.  As I understand it, the Santeria of today has
    evolved from the Santeria of a couple of decades ago.
    
    I'm willing to leave that part of the question open to further
    investigation.
    
>In view of that I am equally saddened by the lack of understanding and/or 
>serious interest shown here in the spirituality developed in Africa.
> ................... African spirituality is ignored, misrepresented, 
>misinterpreted, or treated frivolously (as seen in many previous entries in 
>this particular file). ... Santeria is based on Voudoun, and that Voudoun gods 
>and spirits are similar in many ways to early Christian saints and angelic 
>heirarchies, I am dismayed by its poor treatment here. Even the title of 
>this topic belittles it by mentioning "Voodoo" in conjunction with placebos.
 
    Two points (since I originated the base note).  1) The topic of
    the note _was_ suggestibility and the power of suggestion rather
    than the belief system.  If you might have noticed, in my othert
    discussions in this Conference, I've used the word "Voudoun" as
    opposed to the "Voodoo" of this note's title.  2) Rather than merely
    being saddened, why not provide some enlightenment?  One of the
    purposes if DEJAVU is to _share_ knowledge.
    
>   Of course, while I am dismayed, I am not really surprised. This is just 
>another example of how anything and everything African has been trivialized 
>by Western culture over the centuries.
 
    I again urge: _share knowledge_.  There are areas of the world where
    things have been trivialized as being "not of Western Culture";
    indeed, Alexander the Great was told by no less an authority than
    Aristotle that it was okay to destroy other cultures (conquer them
    and "civilize" them to Greek standards) because the Greek culture
    was superior.
    
    Robert, when you say you are of African origin, do you mean that
    you were born in an African country?  If so, the cultural spirituality
    you can share would be really appreciated in this Conference.  If
    you mean that your ancestors came from Africa -- well, every human's
    did, ultimately.  In either case, don't be shy: do start a note
    (or notes) on anything of paranormality in Africa, including traditions
    and derivitive traditions that you'd like to.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.   

    Robert,
    
    Thank you for providing more information on Santeria and its
    origin.  I can understand the feelings you have expressed 
    regarding the lack of understanding of African spirituality
    in this file.  Perhaps we were just waiting for someone to
    come along who has this knowledge and is willing to share it?
    Perhaps you?  Please, don't give up on us yet!  Each of us
    brings something to this file, and to the world for that
    matter.  I know very, very little of the African spiritual
    culture and I doubt that there will be much time in the future
    for me to acquire that knowledge.  However, your sharing here
    could provide me and others with a broader understanding and
    a clearer perspective on this belief system.
    
    Carole

         My comments on what Robert says would be to point out that
    his assertion is not "precisely" correct.  Since the great
    civilizations of Egypt had a major impact on the entire planet
    and Egypt lies within the continent of Africa, to say that we
    have ignored Africa is technically incorrect.  Where did the
    Egyptians get their impetus?  Perhaps much of it came from the
    more central parts of the continent, as well as from other
    civilizations near and far.  As Joseph Campbell has pointed out
    in his writings, there is clearly a "consensus mythology" [my
    words] that carries with it similar ideals, goals and stories.
    Be that as it may, we recognize Africa as one of the oldest if
    not the oldest "origins" of humankind...therefore it could be
    seen as natural to conclude that "eventual roots" could be traced
    there.  As the others have pointed out, do not get angry at "us"
    for our lack of information, etc.  Instead, as I have done whether
    well or poorly with Lazaris, offer yourself and what you have to
    give.  Otherwise your anger would seem to be misplaced.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Robert,
    
    I am very much interested in 'things African' and am reading about
    this particular continent right now, as a dear friend lived in Rhodesia
    (Zimbabwe) and in South Africa for many years (however he does not
    live there any longer).  I'm attempting to approach this topic from
    both the modern and the ancient perspectives, covering as many
    topics as possible...one of them being African religions and philosophy
    (from the book of the same name).  It's all quite fascinating, though
    I'm not nearly up to the point where I feel comfortable discussing
    anything, so I'll just sit back and read for now.
    
    Rather than be disappointed, please share what you know.  This is
    not a place for flames.  Nobody here claims to have the market 
    cornered on Truth here, which makes it a wonderful environment for 
    sharing, learning, discussing, learning more, etc.  Welcome.          
    
    Cindy
                                                    

Robert,

May I join the others in asking you to share your knowledge?  Although I
know little of them (if anything at all) I haven't exactly ignrored the belief 
systems you mention, but only because I've not encoutered them.  I read all I 
can, but the book stores and libraries have quite a few sources to select 
from, not to mention Dejavu.  Anyway, I'm certainly interested!

Terry

    Robert, I too (as the originator of the "Santeria" question) would
    like to hear more.  The book "The Religion" seemed fairly well
    researched and of course distorting things for its own plot.  But
    it has caught my interest and any information you relay about African
    religion/ritual is appeciate and enthausiastically read!
    
    George
    
    Ps: As a PS note I've never heard of the movie "The Belivers", but
    you (someone?) said its based (loosly) on "The Religion"?
    
    GAW
    

    

   There's no feeling like the feeling one gets when he is convinced of his 
moral supremacy, makes self - righteous statements in a powerful, well 
thought out manner -- and makes a total fool of himself.

   After reading your replies to my entry and rereading my entry, I am 
totally embarrassed. It never occurred to me that lack of knowledge of 
Voudoun might be caused not by a lack of interest but a lack of exposure. 
You all acted more mature than I did and I apologize.

   Some comments and clarifications:

1: I am not African, but have African ancestry. I am American, but speak of 
   my ancestry in much the same way as some other Americans speak of their 
   French, Dutch, or whatever ancestry.

2: My entry was not intended to be the last in DEJAVU, but the last in this
   particular topic. I don't often write to DEJAVU because I don't often
   have anything to say.

3: I intend, in the not - too distant future, to share my knowledge of both
   Santeria and Voudoun. I don't believe that this topic is the place to do
   it, though. I think that once I have organized what I know sufficiently
   I will start a new topic in DEJAVU and enter it there.


   Again: please accept my apologies and be assured that I will think twice 
before moralizing in the future.

                                                         -Robert Brown III

    
    
    I Traveled to Haiti twice in the early '80's doing charitable work.
    Voudoun was a pervasive part of the atmosphere.  It was an important
    part of community life.  When Catholic missionaries tried to convert
    practicioners, it only served to drive the movement partially 
    underground in the early part of this century.  Even today, images
    of Saints are understood to be actually voudoun dieties by the 
    faithful.  Impressions I have of their beliefs:
    
    	A taxi driver who had a sick little girl said that he wouldn't
    take her to a Doctor because the Witch Doctor had said that if
    the gods were willing she would live, if they were not, she 
    would die. 
    
    	A haitian friend who wouldn't join me for a swim in the Ocean
    because she feared that the spirits of the water would take her
    soul.
    
    	On a hot night, unable to sleep I heard a voudoun service.
    There was a calypso kind of beat, and hoarse unison singing.
    It raised the hairs on the back of my neck.
    
    	It would be easy to condemn the religion.  Haitians are 
    desperately poor and Voudoun fatalism could be blamed.  Yet it
    is their connection, however distorted and tenuous, to their
    history.  They are rich in their understanding of the unseen
    world.  They do have community and celebrations.  Two Creole
    sayings, superfluous to the topic come to mind:
    
    	Tiger urine is not beer.
    
    	If work were a good thing, the rich would have taken it
    all long ago.
          

    has anyone ever heard of this movie about an archeoogist who went
    to haiti to find some drug they were using that killed people, but
    they would be actually alive and their soul was controlled by a
    witch doctor?  I don't know all the details but I saw the movie
    and it said that it was infact a true story.  It was truly scasry
    because the voodoo witch doctor had control over all those souls
    he hd killed and had them bottled up.  He even killed the archeologist
    from the US.  He fought the power though because he returned back
    to the US with the power (drug) and went on 6o minutes with his
    story.  Kind of scary if you saw the picture.
    
    Has anyone?

    It was *based* on a true story -- but very, very loosely.  I recommend
    the book by the same name on which the movie was based.  The book and
    the research on which it is based (as detailed more technically in the
    author's PhD thesis) has been the center of quite a bit of controversy.
    Lot's of shouting about who tested what samples when, authenticity of
    samples, replication problems, etc., etc.
    
    Suffice it to say that it is good read, but the author's knowledge is
    not as broad as he seems to think (his brief forray into astronomy
    set me to gigling it was so misinformed).  His hypotheses about the
    role and psychopharacology of zombies are an interesting hypotheses but
    should not be considered demonstrated at the level he implies --
    basically he was more sloppy than his account would leave you to
    believe.
    
    I bought the hardcover on remainder, and I think that a softcover
    should be out.  Fun book, great "travelog" and real-life-adventure,
    interesting speculations which are not completely around the bend.
    (I liked the movie too, by the way, but there are only a few elements
    picked up from the book).
    
    					Topher

    Re: serpent and the rainbow:
    
    Thanks Topher for the response because I thought alot of it was
    true.  Maybe I need to read this book.  I wonder how come we have
    not yet heard about the powder nor the Dr. anymore since the interview
    

    Re .34:
    
    > ... Maybe I need to read this book.
    
    I also suggest it as a good read.  I both read the book and saw
    the film, which I commented on in a response to Note 1277 in the
    MOVIES conference.  There are significant differences.
    
    One thing that might have influenced you is that Wes Craven made
    this film seem almost documentary in tone.
    
    Many of your questions will be answered by perusing the book.
    
    Happy reading.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    	There was a talk show that had Voodoo witch doctors as their
    special guests.  They spoke about how a lot of the voodoo religion is
    based upon a knowledge of plant lifes special properties.  For
    instance, they were talking about that chemical that was used in the
    movie "The Serpent and the Rainbow."  The other half of the religion is
    based on a deep belief that if a person puts a hex on you, it will
    work.  
    	A little herb tea anyone?