Conference hydra::dejavu

I once took a course in "Mind Dimensions and Controls" that was 
basically this concept.  A big part of the "exercises" were based around 
what was called "white framing" things.  I suspect a lot of voodoo and 
witchcraft is based around the same ideas.

"When you wish upon a star.."

Tom

Re. 5.0:
>As I read all this I drew analogies from my past and it seems that whenever
>I really wanted something bad enough I would consume myself with the thoughts
>of it and it would eventually come to be.

	I seem to experience this all ths time!
	Never really thought of it as "POSITIVE THINKING" before though.
	I always assumed it to be the "strong drive for success" common
	to some people.

	[Just as an aside, relating to someone's thinking on WHY there's
	this drive.....Note: Not My Thinking!

	An article I once read stated that this drive was more prominent
	in left-handed people.  Not sure where I read this but the explanation
	went something like:

	"The part of the brain responsible for controlling the right-hand side
	 of the body was in continual struggle for domination over the part
	 responsible for the left-side,  and visa-versa; thus the STRONG
	 DRIVE FOR SUCCESS."]


--Martin.  [Left_Handed_Non_Engineering_Person].

There are, though, other things to consider.  First, with regards to people
being brought up in wealth being able to attract wealth, there's a fairly
straightforward alternative to "positive thinking"; it's that someone growing
up in *any* environment has a tendency to ape, even if unconsciously, its
elders.  Therefore, although the person might not be getting formal training
on "how to handle money," there is every liklihood that he or she will obtain
clues from remarks exchenged between parents and their associates.  A demon-
stration of this difference is to see how someone from an "old wealthy" fam-
ily (e.g., Carnegies, Rockefellers, etc.) handles cash versus, say, an athlete
who suddenly acquires wealth (e.g., Joe Louis).

Another point: although we may work unconsciously towards some goals, we also
tend to censor out those things that *don't* happen.  Most of us have many
things we'd like; some happen, others don't.  If we only remember the positivw
things, then we're possibly deluding ourselves into thinking we had a larger
hand in it than we actually did.

This is *not* to knock some aspects of the paranormal.  But it's easy to 
fall into a trap of believing something because we'd like to.

It's good, even proper to keep an open mind.  The dangetr is, if we open
it too far, our brains might fall out.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

	
	My note on positive thinking should have been more appropriately called
"THINKING".  As well as positive thoughts coming into being there are negative
thoughts as well.  I worked in the medical field for about ten years and saw
people think themselves into being sick as well as being healthy.  There is
the case of a hypocondriac (sp?) who believes he's ill wether he has physical
evidence of it or not.  In these cases the people will display symptoms but
there will be no supporting evidence, like, swelling, itching, redness like
an infection but no bacterial cause is found.  

	Some people can worry about something into it happening.  They would
say, "I just know it's not going to work." and it doesn't work.  I know the
idea of suggestion is a more palatable explanation of why this happens but I
have seen it in cases like, "I know my car isn't going to start." or "It would
be just my luck that this machine will break at the worst time." and low and 
behold the prediction comes true reguardless of how healthy the machines are.

	People that are brought into deep hypnotic trances can be convinced of
things mentally to the point of displaying physical effects.  Like taking a
pencil and telling the hypnotized person that it is a branding iron and 
touching them with it, it leaves a burn mark on their skin.  This idea reaches
into people that walk on hot coals, drink acid, and sleep on beds of nails.
There is a mental connection dealing with acceptance and belief that determines
wether something happens or not.

	I'd like to make a personal comment on this in my attempts to steer my
destiny by my thinking alone.  I think Steve is right about the trap of believ-
ing something because you'd like to.  It can be very dangerous in the sence of
blind faith and surrendering yourself to it without being logically convinced
of it's truth.

	I decided to try it.  I made an effort to only think positively, forc-
ing all negative thoughts away.  I would, at night as i go to sleep, recite the
26th psalm and put in my requests for good to happen the next day.  Well it
appeared to work.  It seemed that everyone I delt with were bending over back-
wards to help me.  I mean everyone, people i never met, people I met in a store
and would never see again.  It seemed that I would always get that great park-
ing spot and find what I wanted on sale.  I have to admit it was great.  But
as I noticed it working for me I couldn't resist the temptation to question and
examine it and try to analyze it in detail.  With this it all stopped and I was
back to my old ways.

	I'm sorry if I have been long-winded on this but I am fasinated by it
and will continue to persue more rational explanations.  Please comment!

							Jorge'

    
      I just realized that the process of subconscious problem solving
    I tried to describe in 4.7 starts with two basic positive assumptions:
   
       (1) There IS a good solution to the problem, and
    
       (2) That solution WILL come to me if I leave the problem alone.
     
      Some people are positive thinkers by nature (image: a guy chained
    at wrists and ankles halfway up a dungeon wall thinking "Hmmmm-
    how can I turn this situation to my advantage?") and some people
    are negative thinkers by nature ("There's no point in trying this
    because I know I'll fail...").  Each type person tends to seek out
    its own kind as friends, coworkers, etc.  
    
      Some wit (?) also pointed out that each type tends to marry a
    specimen of the other type.  I don't think I'd care to comment on
    that.
    
      Jorge's comment in 5.4 also may be an explanation for the non-
    religious of the power of prayer, but I'd rather stay off religion
    in this note...
    
                                        -- Herb Devins
    

    From the practice of Aikido I would liken positive thinking to
    maintaining "plus Ki".
    
    There are no problems without solutions. After all we created the
    problems.  Year ago I did concentrated studies in physics. I worked
    sets of problems each night before going to sleep and chose a difficult
    one to keep my mind on throughout the day. Within in three months
    I was waking up in the morning knowing how to solve problems I could
    not solve the day before.  Like the saying attributed to the Buddha:
    "You are what you think", positive thought or affirmation can have
    a tremendous impact on our lives.  John Diamond in his book
    "Life Energy" describes how to use muscle testing to learn about
    your state of mind and emotion, and to use affrirmation or positive
    thinking to change or prevent dis"ease", and to make good decisions
    in our lives.                                   
    
    --Tim
    

    RE NOTE 5.4 ETC.
    
    ANYONE WISHING TO HAVE ANY FURTHER INFORMATION CONCERNING THE
    POWER OF POSITIVE THOUGHT SHOULD CONTACT THE FOLLOWING PERSON
    IN THE UNITED KINGDOM (PERHAPS A DECMAIL??? OR PHONE CALL DTN
    7-830-4934):-
    
    MARIE HUGGINS - INFORMATION SERVICES - APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT GRP
    
    MARIE ACTUALLY ACTS AS THE FACILITATOR FOR NEW AGE THINKING WITHIN
    THE READING AREA.   SHE IS ALSO AN EXCELLENT "LIVING" EXAMPLE OF
    WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH POSITIVE THOUGHT.
    
    THE PROGRAM WHICH FIRST RAISED HER CONSCIOUSNESS WAS "INVESTMENT
    IN EXCELLENCE".  SINCE THEN SHE HAS TAKEN HER ROLE AS FACILITATOR
    FOR "NEW AGE THINKING".  NEEDLESS TO SAY THESE PROGRAMS ORIGINATED
    IN THE UNITED STATES IN SEATTLE (LOUIS TICE - THE PACIFIC INSTITUTE).
    
    MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT IT WAS HEAVILY USED BY DEC USA AND FEEL
    A CERTAIN SURPISE NOT TO HAVE SEEN ANY MENTION OF IT SO FAR IN NOTES.
    I BELIEVE A GOOD CONTACT WOULD BE ROD GULDENSTEIN.
    
    HOPE TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON YOUR ONLY A PHONE CALL AWAY FROM FURTHER
    ENLIGHTENMENT AND UNTAPPED RESOURCES WITHIN YOURSELF.
    
    
    TAKE CARE
    
    
    

    
    I just discovered this notesfile so there is a chance I am going
    to repeat things people have already mentioned. I have never read
    up on or studied the Power of Positive Thinking, but I am a firm
    believer in it.
    
    When I began my college career about 4 years ago (I just graduated
    this past May), I was little better than an average student (by
    average I mean a B student in high school with average SAT scores).
    I began college with a strong desire to achieve. Although I can't
    say we were poor, but my family wasn't particularly well off either.
    I believed that if I worked hard in college and got good grades
    I could get a good paying job after graduation and starting living
    a little better.
    
    During my first semester I hit the books harder than I ever imagined
    I could...probably harder than any of the semesters that followed.
    My grade point average that semester was 3.25 (on a 4.00 scale).
    I began to wonder why I was still little better than a B (3.00)
    student after working so hard. The answer was that I had learned
    to think of myself as a B student. I started the next semester
    believing that if I could get B's, there was no reason I couldn't
    get B+'s or even A-'s. My grade point average that semester was
    3.66 (an A- at my school was worth 3.67 points).
    
    After that semester I started believing that there was no reason
    why I couldn't be an A student. My grades over the rest of my college
    career went like this: 16 A's, 5 A-'s, 1 B+, 1 B, and 1 B-. I graduated
    with a 3.70 grade point average, in the upper 3% of my graduating
    class (of over 2,000). During my last semester of school I agreed
    to a job here at DEC with a starting salary that ranked in the top
    10 of my graduating class. 
    
    This is just one example of how I have learned to use the Power
    of Positive Thinking to succeed in my life. Another example has
    to do with health. Over the past 5 years, I convinced myself that
    I CAN'T get sick. During that period, I haven't had so much as a
    head cold. I lived in an apartment with 3 other roommates for the
    last 2 years and every semester I was the only one in the apartment
    that didn't catch the flu.
    
    I'm sorry if I was a little long-winded in this response but as
    I mentioned earlier I am new to this notesfile and this is a subject
    that fascinates me. I plan on reading all of the books mentioned
    in earlier responses and if anyone can refer me to any more
    literature on this topic I would appreciate it. By the way, in
    reference to an earlier response, I am lefthanded.
    
    Looking forward to future responses...
    
    Mike

    Re .8
    	You won't get enlightened going on Lou Tice's 'NAT' course.
    I took it about 3 years ago as part of an Introduction to AI course
    in Boston. Jeeez, that guy LT really can get up your nose. The weeks
    course involves n video tapes of him where n is a large number.
    
    I find a problem with 'Positive Thinking' as a discipline. Certainly
    I don't belive in negative thinking, but the lack of positive thought
    should be treated as a symptom of something out of balance in the
    general psyche, and it's that deeper problem that needs to be faced,
    not just forcing yourself into positive thinking exercises that
    only address the symtom, not the cause.
    
    PS a large (statistically) number of people on the AI course(s)
    were left handed....

    Re: .10
    
    I, too, have found that focusing on the disciplines of positive
    thinking only works when I've "done my homework" beforehand, so
    to speak.  I have indeed had instances where faulty habits were
    the culprit and an equal number of instances where no amount of
    focusing on changing habits would produce a deep-down change.  In
    those cases I have had to "go underground" and ferret out the reasons
    my inner self had different goals from my outer self.  Always a
    worthwhile exercise.
    
    Marcia

	Another side effect of positive thinking is the effect on body
    language.  A person thinking positive, will send positive signals
    to whoever they are dealing with, but without going into bl too
    deeply, everyone reads the bl of others (99% of the time it is at
    a sub-consious level).

	Another point I came across is the development of negative thoughts
    in other people, a method that I have heard is actively used by
    salesmen (esp car salesmen), it worls as follows...

	A customer walks into a car yard, wanting to trade in his old car
    for a new one.  The salesperson and the customer talk over the trade
    in price, the salesman um's and ah's over the price and then says
    something like "I will just see the manager about that price", and
    then dissapears into the office.  The customer who is left alone for
    quite some time (while or saleman has a cup of coffee) will think that
    he is possibly asking a bit too much.  The salesman will spot when the
    customer starts getting figety, give it a couple more minutes, and then
    emerge with (supposedly) the managers top offer which is invariably a
    bit less than the customers last _final_ offer, but often the customer
    will now accept this offer.

    I am sorry you feel so strongly about New Age Thinking.  We have
    so far received a mainly positive response from the individuals
    who have attended Louis Tice.
    
    Perhaps it has given us (me) a greater awareness of my potential
    as a human being?  I do know that Marie (Facilitator) has most
    certainly gained in the last 12 months and is a far more productive/
    caring person.
    
    Perhaps our approach was far more positive from the outset, and
    I must add that as a general rule we (British) tend to be very
    suspicious of such ideas which are usually generated from the
    USA.  Which makes it's acceptance/popularity even more striking.
    
    Thank you for responding.
    
    

    < Note 5.5 by BURREN::HANSEN >
                            -< WORLD PEACE>-
    
    Anyone who remotely believes in visulization, positive thinking
    or other related topics, please join us!  We are organizing a session
    to "meditate" on WORLD PEACE on December 31 from 7:15 to 7:45 am.
     At precisely this hour people from all over the world are gathering
    together to do this, in fact an estimated 50 million people.  What
    could be more important?  Please join us if you can!

    FORGOT TO MENTION THE WORLD PEACE MEDITATION IS IN MERRIMACK IN
    MK01-2 IN THE MERRIMACK ROOM.  PLEASE JOIN US 7:15-7:45 AM
    

    Hello,
    
    	I am new to this notes file as of last Thursday.  I'm enjoying
    it tremendously, but the greatest discovery is this particular area
    of interest.  I have come into this realm of thought about 8 months
    ago.  I have found a number of teachers but the latest equates his
    thinking with 'metaphysics'.  Could someone explain the difference,
    if there be any, to this novice, or . . . are we just putting different
    labels on the same thing?
    
    						- - Sandra
    

    "Metaphysics," as it happens, is a term that has vague and elastic
    uses.  In its most rigid use, it's an area of philosophy that attempts
    to develop a coherent model of "reality," however one perceives
    this.  However, it's also been used as a term relating to various
    aspects of the paranormal.
    
    I would avoid using this second way of defining it and leave it
    as a philosophical discipline.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE: .16, .17
    
    Originally, "Physics" dealt with that which could be measured/observed
    while "Metaphysics" dealt with that which was beyond physics --
    the philosophy behind what is observable, knowable -- the philosophy
    of first principles.
    
    Some radical materialists, claiming that nothing which could not
    be measured was rational, equated metaphysics with nonesense; seemingly
    unaware that this was a strong *metaphysical* stance.  Metaphysics
    became attached to anything whose authenticity was challenged by
    pure pramatists and radical materialists.  In this sense, it is
    a derogatory term; which hasn't prevented some occultists from adopting
    it in self description.  As a word, its much better reserved to
    mean an area of philosophical enquirery.
    
    				Topher

    RE: Discussions on the Lou Tice "Investment in Excellence"
    
    I once heard a DIGITAL facilitator comment that if management knew
    the power available in a course like this, they would make it a
    standard offering.   It is one of the most comprehensive offerings
    that goes beneath the surface of  Dale Carnegie/Napoleon Hill/N.V.Peale
    wtitings (all excellent primers though) to touch at the core of
    the power of "positive thinking".  It takes us all the way from
    understanding the impact individuals' value systems have on their
    behavior to providing practical approaches to goal setting and making
    career changes.  It was a BIG, BIG part of the smooth, radical
    transformation I experienced from a technical (Software Services
    manager) to super happy sales exec.
    
    There are a series of books by Dr. Maxwell Maltz on PSYCHOCYBERNETICS
    that give the foundation of much off the current phenomena of
    "self-talk", "subliminal tape recordings", etc.  They can all help
    solve practical problems.  [I plan to descibe some of these in some
    soon to be published articles in a Guide To Whole Brain Selling
    (i.e. using both the logical left brain and the creative right brain�
    YIN/YANG).
    
    If others have had some metaphysical experiences and are also searching
    for some ways to learn how we can harness all this Energy of the
    Universal Consciousness for practical, everyday, on-the-job, LIVING;
    let's share it.
    
    still searching...
    

    Not to sound like a book-seller (I work in a bookstore Sundays),
    but the Seth books by Jane Roberts inevitably cover all this
    in session-after-session. You might just browse any 10 pp. any
    time you're in any store & (hopefully) experience what Thomas
    Merton described in SEEDS OF CONTEMPLATION: "Once the thoughts
    come, wherever you may be reading, put the book down. Reading
    is now beginning. " (approx. paraphrase). We already know 
    quite a lot. It just takes running across a 'flag' to 'access' it.
    I imagine taking courses is a formal 'attention-fixing' device,
    largely behavioral in effect. 
    
    - Boleslaw
    

    Thought an experience along different lines might be appropriate
    here.  My first experience with "positive thinking" was when I was
    a teenager.  I was out with a group of girls on our way to attending
    a dance or party.  As you know from the cliques of that age group,
    girls could be very catty.  There was one girl in the group who
    evidently didn't like me and wasn't too thrilled I was included.
    She kept making comments (from the front seat of the car) in a very
    negative and sarcastic way.  I was getting extremely angry about
    the situation.  We got our of the car and were walking towards the
    dance location (split into two groups).  She continued with her
    verbal sarcasm and my anger built.  I thought over and over again
    "I wish she'd fall and hit her head".  SHE DID!!  I felt so guilty
    about this incident, I never used my "NEGATIVE positive thinking"
    again!!

                <<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 1.13                         Introduction                          13 of 15
BORIKN::ESPOSITO                                     12 lines  28-APR-1988 22:55
                             -< A Word of Caution >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Power of Positive Thinking, Visualization, and Sympathetic Magic
    are all terms that are used today to label inexplicable intervention's
    into the lives of people by other's to alter and influence events.
    You'll find documented account's of such activities dating back
    to the most ancient of times. The malevolent manifestation
    manifestation'sof the aforementioned terms can be seen in the practice
    of Witchcraft, Voodoo, Conjuring practices, and the like.
    
    I would caution those who dabble in such things, innocently, ignorantly
    or with a deliberate intent to actually impose, ones will upon another
    for either perceived good motives or otherwise; that you are treading
    upon dangerous ground. 

                <<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 1.14                         Introduction                          14 of 15
MCIS2::SHURSKY                                        5 lines  29-APR-1988 10:12
                 -< I have my own guardian angel, thank you! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We get the idea.  You have cautioned everybody a number of times.  
    We have taken your cautions and done with them as each of us will.  
    Thank you for your concern.
    
    Stan

                <<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 1.15                         Introduction                          15 of 15
ULTRA::LARU "peace, love, and the blues"             19 lines  29-APR-1988 10:46
                    -< kindly don't kibbitz with my karma >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    
�    I would caution those who dabble in such things, innocently, ignorantly
�    or with a deliberate intent to actually impose, ones will upon another
�    for either perceived good motives or otherwise; that you are treading
�    upon dangerous ground. 

    
    I agree with the above, primarily on ethical grounds.  One is
    responsible for oneself.  Don't meddle in other lives unless
    you are requested to do so.  Personally, I have enough trouble
    running my own life; it seems to me it would be the height of folly
    and arrogance to assume that i know what's best for someone else.

    And please, let's not talk about snipers and falling off cliffs
    here, ok?  The issue here is spiritual meddling.
    
    	bruce

                <<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 1.1                          Introduction                           1 of 12
SNICKR::FIELD                                        20 lines  23-SEP-1985 09:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Dave

	I have been searching for a notes file that would discuss this subject.
I tried to fit it into other notes files but it wasn't quite right.  I was
turned onto this subject by my "mother-in-law".  She claims that she brought
my wife and I together by practicing the "power of positive thinking".  By
this she means that rather than thinking of what the future holds you can
control what the future holds in every way by thinking it up the way you
want it to be.

	Since that time I have been reading dozens of books dealing with it.
There are many charlatans out there who tell you how to be rich by just
thinking rich.  What they really mean is to get rich just write a book about
how to get rich.  I have developed a bit of a cold attitude about people's
motives in writing this kind of stuff.  Anyway, now that there is a notes file
where we can openly discuss it, I feel we all can get more valid contributions
toward the feasability of psychic phenomena.

						Predictably Yours,
						    Jorge'

                <<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 1.2                          Introduction                           2 of 12
PEN::KALLIS                                           5 lines  26-SEP-1985 13:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, I also like the thought of approaching anything like this carefully.
Psychic phenomena are certainly worthy of study, but one should keep an open
mind about getting false "information" as well as true.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

re; BORIKN::ESPOSITO                                    

>                             -< A Word of Caution >-
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    The Power of Positive Thinking, Visualization, and Sympathetic Magic
>    are all terms that are used today to label inexplicable intervention's
>    into the lives of people by other's to alter and influence events.

(Note; ESPOSITO's note first appeared in the INTRODUCTION, topic #1.)

I am concerned that you wanted to put this in the INTRODUCTION to this file, 
which is now write-locked, by the way.  The three terms which you mention above 
can be taken any number of ways, including the way in which you defined them, 
which I consider to be, to their negative extreme.  To put those terms in an 
INTRODUCTION says to me that you are taking responsibility for warning any 
noters new to DEJAVU; the problem being, many different viewpoints and opinions 
are expressed here; some which are untraditional; and I, for one, do not want 
for new noters to get the impression that this is the Voo-Doo file.  On the 
contrary, I find that most members here speak from a Light perspective; are 
trying to make their lives, as well as the lives of those around them, better 
in a way that is Good.  We cannot make another's life change.  The person 
involved must decide from material presented, what is right for him or her.  We 
can try and help, and we can give a map, but no one is required to follow that 
map.

Power of Positive Thinking

Perhaps the reason that you think it is solely used in Witchcraft, Voodoo and 
Conjuring Practices is because you've not tried it yourself, nor have you 
witnessed what a wonderful, happy turn a life can take when it is applied.  I 
know this myself.  When I wake in the morning and think "Oh no, I have to go to 
work; what a bummer, I wish I could just stay in bed," I usually come in with a 
grumpy attitude, negligent of the beauty of the day, forgetting the value of 
having a job and being a productive citizen.  When I wake in the morning and 
think, "Wow, it's (weather) outside, which means (whatever I like about that 
type of weather)...I know what I need to do today, and that's not so bad, and 
I'm looking forward to breaking with NOTES", I come in with a happy attitude 
and smile, appreciating the good that is around me, feeling good that I am 
employed rather than twiddling my thumbs.  The difference is all in my mind, 
and it makes a difference in my life.  The Power of Positive Thinking.

Visualization

Heavens, take that away from me, and I'm going to whine! ;-)  I'm a very visual 
person, and I find that visualizing an upcoming situation in my mind helps me 
in dealing with it when it does happen.  I get very nervous in interviews, but 
if I visualize the interview first; the questions that might be asked, how I 
will respond, my posture, etc, I find that I will be much  better prepared, and 
therefore, less nervous on the actual interview.  Visualization often keeps me 
from saying, "Oh, if only I'd thought of x,y,z before I got in here!" because, 
in a sense, I've already been there, enough to rectify a potential mistake.

Sympathetic Magic

Of course, I think magic is nothing more, nothing less, than personal 
realization. "I realize who I am, what I can do, where and how I fit in to this 
world; I know my True Purpose, True Will, and because of this, I can help to 
manifest a better world." If I can bring more light, love to the planet through 
realizing who am I, then I will, and if you think that's witchcraft, voodoo and 
conjuring, then I'm just going to shrug my shoulders and say "OK for you".

>    The malevolent manifestation
>    of the aforementioned terms can be seen in the practice
>    of Witchcraft, Voodoo, Conjuring practices, and the like.

I think that anything can have a malevolent manifestation.  I also see very 
little encouragement of such manifestation anywhere in these files.  People who 
don't understand what the New Age hopes are, often condemn the practices around 
it because they fear it is evil.  Their fear adds fuel to evil.
    
>    I would caution those who dabble in such things, innocently, 

Malevolent manifestation is hardly innocent.

>ignorantly

However, it is ignorant.

>    or with a deliberate intent to actually impose, ones will upon another
>    for either perceived good motives or otherwise; that you are treading
>    upon dangerous ground. 

A will cannot be "imposed".  One can attempt to impose that will. If another 
agrees to abide by the "imposers" will, then it is not an imposition, but 
rather, an agreement.

    I think you might have confused two different notes.
    
    One was decrying various techniques for self improvement and the other
    was protesting the use of religious imagery/propaganda as a negative
    paint brush. 
    
    I too would like to say that to attempt to program another individual
    through religious propaganda is not very moral or ethical. Dicussion
    is appropriate but propaganda is not.
    
    (Gee, do I wanna' get into this??) 
    

re; < Note 5.29 by NEXUS::MORGAN "Human Reality Engineering, Inc." >

>    I think you might have confused two different notes.
    
I'm no longer sure if I did or not... ;-)

    whatever the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve
    
    napoleon hill   "think and grow rich'
    

    RE:  .31
    
    >Whatever the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve <
    
    >napoleon hill   "think and grow rich" <
                                                                
    
    Gee, I could have _sworn_ that it sounded just like Jesse Jackson!
    
    
    
    Mairon

    .32
    
    sure does...maybe he read TGR...
    

    I notice from the date that no one has been in here for a while..
    but I will give it a shot anyway.
    I think I am a very positive person but what do you do when
    everyone you care about and that are close to you are all
    negative and put you down constantly. You can tell I am
    at my wits end on this one...this is family so I don't
    want to give up on them  but it is a real drain
    Carole

    re: .34 (Carole)
    
         There are lots of answers.  The ultimate answer, though,
    is that you must change, in order to change the perceived behaviors.
    That is, they cannot change unless you do.  This is not easy
    to respond to in just a few sentences, or even in a few sessions, 
    for that matter.  There are lots of points that could be responded
    to.  There are lots of beliefs (yours) that need to be addressed
    (like the importance of family...in the past and in the present
    and for the future.  There are core feelings involved (why are
    you angry?  what are you angry at?  are you taking a payoff here
    in feeling suffocated...i.e. victimized, martyred? or are you
    simply getting into self-pity?  Is there a basis for shame here
    [probably, but how significant...]?)  You see, there is a whole
    life-full of stuff in this.  You might start asking yourself a
    bunch of questions, starting with what you really want.  Keep
    on processing (for it's processing that keeps us apart from 
    insanity.)
    
    Frederick
    

    
    That is basicly what I am "trying to do" stay positive and
    believe me I don't have to go far to see the negative...
    You are right there is alot involved. I quess there are no
    easy answers to anything....Praying helps a lot.
    Maybe I should not have written what I did because it is
    not an easy problem with an easy solution. I just thought
    maybe someone who has had a similar experience could maybe
    have a suggestion.. And I might add a few good people did.
    Thanks for caring.... and as always I will think positive...:-)
    
    

    Carole,
    	Your note was very touching to me, I empathize with
    it.   At least as far as you might be trying to find our own way, and 
    having positive visions of the future, but seemingly being bombarded 
    with other people's fears and imagined limitations.   
    
    Unfortunately, all I can offer is a description of an approach that
    helps me.  I hope some aspect of this is of some value.
    
    	One important realization for me 
    was that the extent to which people's "mental poisoning" affects me 
    usually depends on the extent to which it reflects negativity I *already 
    had*, but wasn't admitting to myself because I wanted to "keep positive."  
    
    	For that reason, I have found it usually more helpful to work on
    myself, not gloss over my negativity but probe it.  I assume that the 
    source of the fears and negativity is not just coming from others, but 
    also from within me, and I seek to understand and deal with each fear 
    individually, not to dwell on it, but insofar as it surfaces in my daily 
    life.  This works more easily with my responses to strangers than with 
    those to family, though, where the associations are much deeper and more 
    complicated.  It also seems to get better with practice.  For example, 
    typically I need to deal with negativity toward people 
    resulting from anger that arises inappropriately due to some past 
    situation where I felt I was not assertive enough and resented my own
    inaction.   Everyone's own world will be composed differently.
    
    	With FAMILY, I usually need to physically remove myself from the 
    *worst* sources of negative energy I encounter, so that I stop reacting 
    to it long enough to deal with it, and then (importantly, to avoid running 
    away from reality) I need to go back and build a new relationship with
    the family member whose negativity I was running from, with the new
    implicit understanding that they will be unconsciously trying to
    gain sympathy and validation for the miserable world they've sadly built 
    around themself.  
    
    	Then, I can even start to help them see where they are
    limiting themselves  ---  rather than being dragged down and given their
    limitations.   Helping someone else out of their own arbitrary limitations
    is a very satisfying experience, and worth the pain of destroying
    the original relationship (to me, at least).
    
    	Remember a basic rule of human nature, it is initially incredibly 
    painful to take responsibility for creating and adapting your own belief 
    system, but once you do it right, you can adapt to any new situation with
    joy for living, which is really what the goal of "Positive Thinking"
    is.   If I build a fragile belief system, based on shallow affirmations
    that don't deal with my own repressed fears and traumas, it will
    eventually come crashing down on me, even more pain.   Also
    unneccessary pain if I *dwell* on the fears and traumas, and forget that 
    their only importance to me is their effect on my life right now.
    
    	warm regards,
    
    	>Todd>

    Carole,
    
    	I have a very similar situation in my life so my heart goes out to
    you.  For what it's worth, I just finished reading a book that I found
    quite useful and fascinating.  The title is Creative Visualization and
    it's written by Shakti Gawain.  There are some ideas covered in that
    book that seem as though they'd come to bear on your situation.
    
    
    				My thoughts and prayers are with you.
    
    
    						Ron Matthews
    
    P.S.  Hi Todd!  Fancy meetin' you here!  ;')

    well thank you all. I will read and reread everything carefully
    and see what I can do to make things better. This has been
    very enlightening in many ways and all of you have had many
    good suggestions. I certainly feel differently then I did
    this am when I wrote that original note. I I certainly will
    try a little harder. there is so much more I could say but
    I don't want to beat this thing to death. also thank you seems
    so inadequate but I really don't know what else to say.

    re: .38, Ron,
    	I just blew my book budget for the rest of the year,
    I'd be very interested to hear more about the main ideas in the Shakti 
    Gawain book that you felt were useful and unique in this area.
    
    	>Todd>

    
    Hi Carole,
    
    You might be interested in topics 668 on Adult Children, and 398 on
    Scott Peck's works. 
    
    I've been there too.  But I'm not anymore.  Contact me offline if you'd
    like to.  
    
    Sending you good thoughts,
    
    Cindy

>	398 on Scott Peck's works. 
    
    Hi Cindy,
    	I also enjoy John Bradshaw's presentations and books on the
    	subject ("Healing the Shame that binds you," "Bradshaw on:
    	The Family").  They seem to give a very ecclectic, well-rounded,
    	and compassionate view of the human spiritual condition, although
    	they are not "upbeat" for the most part, but seem to carry an empathetic
    	touch of anger that dysfunctional psychological conditions are so 
    	prevalent.   
    
    re: general
    
    	When someone fails at these techniques, I think the main problem 
    	is usually that they aren't congruent in their thoughts
    	at the time.  Clearing out our multiple conflicting intentions
    	is, IMO, a prerequisite for seeing any true results from imaging
    	and affirmation techniques.   That's what focuses them and makes
    	them something other than wishful thinking, and it seems for me
    	to be a lifetime's work to do it.   Part of me wants to say more, but
    	my family part is calling me home to the clan, so I must
    	refocus in that direction ... :-)
    
    	warm regards,
    
    	>Todd>

    Speaking of congruent intentions :-), a very good experiential
    type book on the subject is _Empowerment_ by David Gershon and
    Gail Straub.  I highly recommend it, and their workshops which
    they frequently hold in the New England area.
    
    Good luck Carole.
    
    Karen

    
    Re.42
    
    Hi Todd,
    
    I agree with you on your comment re: anger in Bradshaw's works.  I
    don't see this as a bad thing though, since it was my own experience 
    in which I first had to get (to use the phrase from "Networks") 
    "Mad as hell and decide to take it anymore."...speaking of those who
    were treating me as those who are treating Carole today.
    
    Two statements which impeded my growth more than anything else because
    I believed them were, "You can't get angry." and "You've got to
    forgive."  Why?  Because these two phrases instill feelings of guilt in
    the person who believes in them - not normal guilt, but deep guilt,
    since the person being criticized isn't the one treating others poorly, 
    and they are also being made to feel bad for 'causing' the reactions 
    in others - to *make them* treat the person like they are.  Crazymaking.
    
    The first time I got angry about the way I was being treated was about
    4 years ago - someone told me that my anger in a particular situation
    was justified.  Now, it has been 4 years, and I don't get angry
    anymore...I just get even.  (;^)  (;^)  Truly though, I've kicked those
    people who've treated me poorly out of my life, and it's nice to have
    in my current reality those people who would never even think of
    treating me as others have in the past - who treat me well and
    genuinely care for me. [Thanks to many of you here in this conference, 
    in fact.]  What a difference!
    
    Cindy
    

    good work Cindy :-)

    
    Thank you too, Mary.

    Anothewr very powerful (albeit small) book on thinking is
    `The Power of Affirmations' by Jerry Fankhauser, MSW.
    
    His book covers the correct way to phrase something positive, how to
    instill it into your life and gives you a few really nice little
    training excersises in 50 or so pages.
    
    The book has been invaluable to me since I purchased it.
    
    Blessed be,
    Janet