Conference 7.286::sports_90

    According to an article in yesterday's Globe, no.
    
    A horse cannot be kept lying down for as long as it takes for a break
    to heal because its internal organs move around which causes other
    health problems.  The horse must be kept upright while waiting for the
    leg to heal, usually by a sling of some sort.  The leg is usually too
    badly shattered for repairs to do any good, from what I've read.
    
    John

    This is true, according to the Lexington (Ky) Herald Leader, the
    horse would (probably) soon die of Pneumonia, or its leg/ankle
    muscles would athrophe.
    
    It's a shame, Go for Wand would have been good for many millions
    after she retired.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

>    It's a shame, Go for Wand would have been good for many millions
>    after she retired.
    
    Real nice way to reduce an animal's life to a dollar value. 
    Horse racing is a cruel exploitation of animals and the above statement
    only goes to enforce the greedy mentallity of the owners, the people
    involved, and those who support the "sport."
    
    	--dan'l

    
    But on the other hand, there may be no more beautiful sight in sports
    than a thoroughbred horse in full stride.  And that has nothing to do
    with money.
    
    glenn (who doesn't gamble but likes to watch them run)
    

    
    How do you think I feel? I had Go For Wand on the nose and also as
    part of a trifecta, that would've won! Steenkin horse has to break 
    it's fargin leg! Oh well I picked both daily doubles anyhoo.
    
    
    But seriously, it was an awful sight, I feel bad for the owners of
    the animal who were in tears. I'm sure they could care less about
    the money Go For Wand would've made in the years to come, just like
    I could've cared less about the money I would've one. Very sad day
    at the track.
    
    
    Steve

    Of course it's too bad for the horse.  But gimme a break, these
    animals are franchised investments that run into the megabucks.
    
    And I'm getting really sick of the "Horses that went out and put his
    life on the line" crap.  The horse ran, broke her leg, and had to be
    put to sleep.  A horrible sight to be sure, but I don't see noters
    piling in about some skunk that was run down by a car.  
    
    On the other hand, it made sick (at the Keenland race course) to hear
    the crowd (that didn't bet "Wand") cheer when she went down.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach  
    

    People don't make money off of hitting skunks on the road.  That's an
    accident as much a bug hitting your windshield...unless the skunk is
    purposely run over.
    
    People pay money (and bet) to see these horses run around a track, being
    beaten by a jockey's whip.  Oh how beautiful.  Yeah, it's beautiful so
    that justifies the exploitation.  Right?
    
    I know I'm in a losing battle in this conference so I'm not going to
    get into any LDUCs.  You have your right to your opinion and I have a
    right to mine...and the horses and greyhounds have no rights whatsoever.
    
    	--dan'l

    And don't forget about all those Nauga's out there only to wind up
    making a couch's and mini skirts...
    
    Regards,
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

       As one of the trainers said Saturday. "When you have a 1000 pound
    animal running 45 mph on ankles no bigger than a mans, these things
    are going to happen." 
                                            Denny

    
    
    Re: 7
    
    Heck, back in the hills where I come from, folks bet on skunks crossing
    the interstate all the time.  Bug stomping is great sport, too.  
    
    Jethro

    
    Mr. Medvid is right .... horse racing, dog racing, bull fighting...are
    not too far removed from cock fights or dog fights (which horridly
    still go on) in the sense that they exploit parties that are powerless
    to defend themselves.  I'm reminded of an incident that occurred
    several years ago at an Alligator farm - some misbehaved (or
    unattended) child fell into the alligator pit, and was fatally
    victimized.  The immediate response was to destroy the "offending"
    animal, a response that I have always questioned. 
    
    When I look at the hierarchy in the evolutionary scale, I say 
    
    "It's all a matter of perspective..."  

    
    I humbly disagree-- in the entire scheme of things, animals *and* many
    humans included, I think that thoroughbred horses are very well
    treated.  Yes, technically there is exploitation in that the animal
    consents to nothing, but that's true with *any* pet, too.  Without
    getting too philosophical about what humans have done to the earth and
    trying to turn back the clock thousands of years, I'd go so far as to
    say that the sport may have saved this beautiful breed of animal from
    extinction.  For what other purpose would the thoroughbred be allowed
    or able to exist on its own in today's environment?
    
    I abhor abuse of animals, too, but I think there are many far worse
    examples of mistreatment of animals and humans than what a race horse
    receives.  In more cases than not, it appears to me that there is
    actually a love of these animals by their owners, as if they were part
    of a family.  There are also very tough laws concerning the treatment
    of these horses, too, maybe the toughest in the country for a
    non-endangered species.  The animals may not bred and raised for 
    completely noble reasons, but nor are they wantonly exploited, either.
    
    glenn
      

    re .11
    
    Perspective ...... why I enjoy eating shark.  If the tables were
    turned, he/she wouldn't think twice.
    
    
    Greg

>    Mr. Medvid is right .... horse racing, dog racing, bull fighting...are
>    not too far removed from cock fights or dog fights (which horridly
>    still go on) in the sense that they exploit parties that are powerless
    
    Exploitation not unlike what women experience in jello/mud wrestling,
    strip joints, nude magazines, etc.
    
    Mike

    Hey Mike H., nexted time you're back east, we'll have to have a noter
    get-together and bring ya to the Banana on Marina night.  Whaddya
    think, Slasher?  :-)
    
    Hawk

�    Exploitation not unlike what women experience in jello/mud wrestling,
�    strip joints, nude magazines, etc.


   I assume you mean women exploiting men's sex drive in order to separate
   us from our hard earned cash! Good point Mike! I agree.... they should
   do it for free!

   Mike JN

    
    We all have been wantonly victimized by other creatures for their
    benefit, and without our consent, and often to our detriment, even to
    the point of death.  Mosquitoes, harmful bacteria and viruses come to
    mind.
    
    Dickster
    

    Should mosquitos, harmful bacteria and viruses be allowed to compete
    in parimutuel events?

       Sure /Don, but where would they find jockeys that small?
                                               Denny

 I don't know Denny but you get bet your butt if they did someone would
 bet em....

 mike

    
    
    "This week on "Monday Night on /Don's Chest Hairs" features microscopic
    mayhem in a match pitting the NY Gnats and the San Diego Chiggers.
    
    "The Gnats put the bite on the Chiggers in their previous meeting,
    winning in the last seconds on a flea-flicker/fly pattern combination.
    The Chiggers felt the play should have been nullified when an offensive
    linebug was seen on replay holding the defense with at least three of
    his arms.  Looks to be a real battle of bad blood.  We'll be back with
    the kickoff, right after this word from RAID."
    
    Dickster
    

 Cmon Dickster cut it out it ain't even friday.........

 hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!11

 mike

    you guys crack me up! ;-)
    
    Only in SPORTS can a serious discussion turn out like this ;-)
    
    Mike

    Mike, you want serious, go to WOMANNOTES!  :-)
    
    Hawk

    There is stable near my moms house, that keeps show horses from what I
    have been told when I went there once was that they have the
    Southeastern Champ there and that the horse is worth over $350,000.00
    Anyway's these horses have it made. Air-condition/Heated Stable,
    Automatic feeders, Automatic water, all set up on a timer. An electric
    walker inside the stable. Heck, not bad if you ask me!!! I don't know
    about race horses, but I'm sure they are well taken care of and it is a
    tragedy when one has to be put to sleep.
    
    Whats bad is when I was in Spain, I watched a bull-fight and nomatter
    what the Bull gets killed. If the Bull gets the best of the matador,
    other matador's come out and stab it and if the Bull is losing, he
    still gets stabbed. This is cruelty and if you ever go to one of these,
    take it from me, DON'T pull for the Bull!!!!! The locals were VERY
    upset with us and we had to be escorted out of the arena. Boy, it scary
    there for alittle while.
    
                                              M.J.

    
    Yeah, bullfighting is not exactly what you'd call your average American-
    style pick-sides-and-root team sport.  It's supposedly more of an 
    appreciation sport or art form, although I don't see it.
    
    But while people don't go to the stadium to see the matador gored, they
    don't go easy on them either.  My father lived over there for a few
    years recently and says that if the crowd senses that the bullfighter
    is scared and won't get close to the bull, they'll let him have it,
    shower him with trash and verbal abuse upon exit, etc.  I guess they 
    know their bullfighting in Madrid.
    
    glenn
    

    I've seen bullfights, too.   On the island of Majorca off the coast of
    Spain about 17 or 18 years ago.
    
    I was horrified.  I had *no* idea that the bulls were killed each and
    every time.  Pretty brutal stuff.   We did understand, though, that the
    bull carcasses were cut up into steaks and sold at market later that
    day.  Small consolation.
    
    I do recall the crowd giving one of the matadors a hard time.  The
    stadium had cement benches and they sold foam cushions to sit on.  
    They made great "frisbees" to let a matador know he wasn't putting on a
    good enough show.
    
    Great pageantry and theatrics.  Lots of color and noise but incredibly
    bloody and brutal.   I had no desires to go back.
    
    Bob Hunt

       Ah, Majorca, my favorite place in all of Europe!
                                                  Denny

    Anybody ever have a nice horsemeat steak?
    
    Tender, slightly less flavorful than beef.  Much cheaper.
    
    The only thing that bothered me was that I was kinda young the first
    time we had it, and I worried that maybe it was Champion or Trigger!
    
    Lee

   When I was in Okinawa, I was invited to a bull fight. I'd  never been
   to one, so I thought it'd be pretty neat. I wasn't sure what to expect,
   but it turned out that Okinawan bullfights are between two bulls... and
   they don't fight. It's like a tug of war. The strongest bull wins. 
   Meanwhile, the Okinawans were going nuts! They're screaming and yelling
   and waving money in the air... bets are flying around, they're throwing
   rocks at their favorite bull to make it pull harder, people are
   climbing on top of each other to see better, little dudes are zooming
   around selling Sake, and Shirasagi, and fried lizards, fights are
   breaking out, people start running out with branches and sticks to
   whack the bull they want to win, and they're getting beaned by rocks 
   that other people are throwing, a whole bunch of kids on motorcycles
   show up and start buzzing the crowd and the bulls, people started
   throwing rocks and fried lizards at the motorcycle dudes. The
   motorcyclists attack the crowd, everybody is milling around trying to
   get a punch in, the bulls are still pulling and bellowing, their
   trainers are hollering like crazy, dust and dirt are flying in the air,
   men are yelling, women are screaming, a motorcycle got set on fire, the
   cops showed up and started bopping people... I was yelling all the
   Japanese words I knew, and swinging at people and laughing so hard I
   almost threw up...... It was wonderful.

   Mike JN
   PS- Also saw a Habu/Mongoose fight a couple times.. those are fun, too!

       How come John Elway has his own note? I say we move this to the Donk
    obituary note.
                                          Denny

    
    Sounds like the next best thing to a Broons game, Mike.
    
    Dickster
    

    Lemme git this (George) strait...
    
    All ya gotta do is run one mile every couple of months, do it
    for a couple of years, then go get put out to stud?!?!?
    
	Where do I sign up?
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach
    
    P.S.  I used to date a girl (in kentucky) whose mom owned world class
    standard bred (Donna Moore Farms, for the equine enthu.) and those
    babies had it made!!!

    
    The heated/cooled stalls, piped in music, etc (have youe ever seen a
    horse swimming pool?) sound nice.  However, the reality of the
    situation is that these horses spend 20-22 hours a day in 12X12 foot
    stalls, so that the owner's investment can be protected.  That is not
    kind to animals who need to run free.
    
    The situation gets very bad when the breeding of the animals takes
    place.  If a valuable sire or mare has a foal who is determined to be a
    detriment to the lineage (this is determined at birth) because it is
    not up to "standards" the foal will either be destroyed on the spot or
    secretly shipped out to a farm (without any papers).  The owners of the
    parents need to do this in order to preserve their investment.  If
    you've ever seen a prospectus on an "investment" horse, one of the most
    important things is the status of its offspring.
    
    The owners of these horses are far and away business people first, and
    horse lovers second.
    
    
    Bruce  

    I used to work for Peter Fuller, owner of Kentucky Derby winner
    Dancer's Image.  Although I had nothing to do with his horses (I drove
    cars and did odd jobs at his car dealership in Boston), I used to run
    errands to his farm on rt. 101D in No. Hampton, NH where he stabled
    and trained his horses.  The farm is stiil there, as is the huge sign
    on the road with a picture of Dancer's Image........
    
    BTW, was Dancer's Image stripped of the Kentucky Derby Crown because of
    drugs?  I seem to recall that an illegal stimulant was found during the
    post-race blood test, but I don't remember what was done about it.....
    
    Hawk

    Hawk, Fuller's Farm is right near a nice deer yard I "frequent" each
    November.
    
    Mark.

       I think he was DQ'd for Butazoladin (sp?) which was a banned drug
    in Kentuck back then.
     
                                              Denny

    
    Yep, and Forward Pass was declared the winner (1968).
    
    glenn
    

  I'm glad to see that drugs were finally brought up in this
conversation.  Stimulants, pain killers, preventatives from internal
bleeding sound like we are doing these horses a favor!


 One of the most corrupt sports in the world

    > I'm glad to see that drugs were finally brought up.......
    
    Thanks!  Just leave it to me!  :-)
    
    Regarding Dancer's Image being stripped of the Crown, that huge sign
    outside of Peter Fuller's farm has always said something like "Dancer's
    Image, Winner of the 19xx Kentucky Derby", even today (well, as of a
    couple weeks ago when I drove by it!).
    
    Hawk

Is that the same Peter Fuller of Mom's Command fame??
    
Greg

    No, it's the Peter Fuller as in Peter Fuller Oldsmobile in Watertown,
    MA.
    
    Mark.

       Yes, Peter Fuller did own Mom's Command. As well as the Olds and
    Cadillac dealerships. And Abby is his daughter.
                                                Denny

    Is Abby normal?
    
    Mark.

    Yup, Abby is normal!  *I* happened to be a chauffer at Abby's normal
    wedding at Petey's mansion (chapel included!) in No. Hampton overlooking 
    the Atlantic.  One of Abby's abnormal aunts (Pete's sister) noticed us
    "peasants" eating wedding banquet leftovers, and came out with an
    armful of ice cold champagne!  I wound up driving Abbynormal Auntie
    back home to Boston while she sipped herself into lala land in the way
    back then, having the limo all to myself and no return deadline and a
    half a tank of gas and 2 bottles of bubbly that Abby's auntie left for
    me, I had one helluva 4 hour joyride throughout Boston!
    
    Ahhhhhh, to be 18 again!
    
    Hawk

    is it Friday yet?

    There is no Dancer's Image listed as a Derby winner. Northern Dancer
    won in 1964. I believe he won the triple crown as well. 
    
    BoB

    Northern Dancer, one of the all-time great horses between the sheets,
    never won the Triple Crown.
    
    Citation won it in 1948 and then no other horse won it until
    Secretariat in 1973.  I believe Secretariat's daddy was Northern
    Dancer.  If not, then it was Bold Ruler.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Majorca was nice and I had a great time there, but the best place over
    there to me was Torremolines(sp?), Spain. The ships dock in Malaga, and
    you take a taxi over to Torremolines. Great place, nice women and alot
    of fun. The Island of Ibiza was my 2nd favorite.
    
    Anyways we were in Madrid when we saw this bullfight and after we got
    thrown out. The tour guide told us we should not pull for the bull
    cause they(citizens) want the bull killed. I said.....Oh,EXXXXXcuse
    me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-) 
    
                                            M.J.

       Bold Ruler was indeed Big Red's daddy. Dancer's Image isn't listed
    as a Derby winner because he was disqualified the nexted day.
                                         Denny

    
    Denny, did everyone have to return thier winnings, or in this case
    show up to collect their winnings? I know I'd be pissed either
    way! 
    
    
    
    Steve

    Hawk,  Didnt Abby marry Jorge Vargas?? Is Abby normal??  Well as a
    jockey she sucks!!  Anybody could have rode Mom's Command. That's all
    she had to do was hold on. 
    
    Greg  
    

       I know I would have returned MY winnings Digger! ;^)
    Actually, everyone who collected theirmoney kept it. I'm not sure how
    they work it if you didn't cash your ticket that day. I imagine they
    still have to pay since the race was declared 'official'.
                                Denny

    Greg, being of peasant stock, working class, and all that, I didn't get 
    near any of the festivities.  I only got a glimpse or 2 of the bride. 
    I was, however, honored to chauffer Mr. and Mrs. Fuller all of 200
    yards from the mansion to the chapel and back.  I think I made the shit
    list for not genuflecting as I opened the limo door for King Pete and
    the Mrs.......  :-)
    
    Hawk

    I was reading the Racing Form the other day and passed over many
    articles on Go for Wand.  NBC did not show it but Go for Wand did
    finish the race.  After breaking down, she got up and on bascially
    three legs ran from the 16th pole to the finish line.  She than tried
    to make to the winners circle, she collapsed 10 feet from the winners 
    circle.  A tribute to her heart and determination.
    
    
    Greg
    

    Did anyone see the photos in SI that showed Go for Wand?  They were
    sickening.  You could clearly see that the foreleg was bent into an
    upward position!  
    
    According to a report I heard, she supposedly suffered the initial
    injury some 20 paces or so before she fell.  She gamely went on after
    the first break, but each additional step just compounded the injury.
    No telling how she might have fared if she pulled up at the first time
    of injury.
    
    One comment in SI was about how she got up and ran around on 3 legs:
    "She ran like she was running from the source of the pain".  The poor
    thing must have been in tremendous pain.
    
    Lee

Lee, 

I saw the photos.

I used to be an EMT and a firefighter, and have seen some things
that were unbelievably grizzly, but those photos turned my stomach.

I've always had a soft spot in my heart for animals, especially
dogs and horses, and those photos just made me turn the page
really quick.

Such a magnificent animal, such a terrible injury.  It's good 
that they put her down as quickly as they did.  And kudos to
the outrider (the dude in the red in the photos) who knew just
what to do.....

'Saw

    
    ...A soft spot in your heart for dogs and horses, and a hard spot in
    your loins for sheep and heiffers.  An animal lover through and
    through. 8^))))))
    
    Dickster
    

>    ...A soft spot in your heart for dogs and horses, and a hard spot in
>    your loins for sheep and heiffers.  An animal lover through and
>    through. 8^))))))


More commonly referred to Dickster, as LoinalFire(tm).....8^)

But seriously, I've like horses since I was a little kid.  My cousin
(who's much older) was a riding instructor for Deerfield Academy for
a long time, and owns a horse farm up in Vermont.  When I was little
she used to let me ride her horses.

Nowadays I only get to ride once in a while, usually friends horses...    

Dogs, well, they are man's best friend...after Jack Daniels of course.

'Saw

    Somehow I thought this note would be about John Elway...:-)
    
    Carlos