Conference 7.286::sports_90

    Anyone out there love gymnastics like I do? I am not a gymnast but
    I love watching it. I first got into it back in 1984 during the
    summer Olympics, and have been following it ever since. Any comments?

    I like gymnastics, also.   The Olympic competitions are intense.
    
    *BUT* I don't like the long-term direction of the sport mistakenly
    named "women's" gymnastics.
    
    It should be renamed "Pre-Pubescent Little Girls Who Can Fly, Run, and
    Smile".   I think Bela Karolyi is a genius in what he can get a little
    girl to accomplish but I think it is extremely sad to see a so-called
    world-class sport where the contestants are washed up and out at age 16
    or so.
    
    Have you ever seen a college gymnastics meet ???  Like Penn State vs
    Ohio State or something like that ???  Extremely intense competition
    with very good athletes.  Will any of these college ladies make the
    1992 Olympics  ???    Hell, no.   They're at least 10 years past
    puberty and don't have the speed and aerodynamics of a 12 year old.
    
    Not to mention the loss of these children's best years spent far away
    from home in gymnastics boot camps.
    
    Sad state ...  I wish it were different.  I like what Karolyi can do
    but I don't like the system that's been built up around it.  I'd rather
    see Karolyi work his coaching magic with true athletes and not just
    with the Tinker Bells.
    
    Bob Hunt

    >>                   <<< Note 394.1 by BLKWDO::SPITZ >>>
    >>                        -< I love gymnastics! >-
    
    
    Now your first name isn't Mark, is it???????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    I happen to agree 100% with Bob Hunt.  Somewhere in here there's a
    topic on "Girls in 'Women's' Sports" or something like that which
    started with the age phenomena in "Women's" gymnastics.
    
    I sometimes wonder what would happen if men's floor exercise got a
    musical accompaniment, or if women got into parallel bars rather than
    unevens.  I'd like to see more common events between the two sexes -
    can you imagine women on pommel horse?
    
    Hmmmm - I wonder if encouraging women to compete in some events which
    require more strength would be a way of forcing the "Tinkerbelles" to
    grow up some before reaching the point that they *could* compete at an
    international level?
    
    A&W

    Re .3: No, my first name is Sheryl. I'm not related to Mark, I've been
    asked that question almost all my life.
    
    I follow men's gymnastics more than "womens". Their strength and power
    is just incredible. My favorite event is the high bar and parallel
    bars. In 1988, the Soviet national team came to Phoenix to compete
    with the U.S. national team. That was very exciting. That has become 
    a yearly thing but the one I went to was the first, I believe.
    I'm really glad to see it.
    This past August, the Soviets were in San Jose and they stayed for
    about two weeks. They trained with the Americans, and even went around
    California with them. I see a difference in the Soviets during
    competitions, now as compared to a few years ago. They smile more
    and they seem to enjoy what they are doing. They are still very
    intense. I love watching them "perform".
    
    Our national team is looking very good. We were very competitive at
    the Goodwill Games. Seeing Lance Ringnald win a gold medal on the
    high bar was definitely a highlight. Well, I could go on and on ......
    
    
    
    
    Sheryl
    

    Men's gymnastics is a great sport.  
    
    It's got somewhat of a "sissy" reputation from the traditional
    football/basketball/baseball/hockey crowd but there is very little that
    is "sissy" about some of the studs who compete in gymnastics.   Anybody
    tried an "Iron Cross" on the rings lately ???
    
    I enjoyed the 1984 Olympics men's team competition despite the absence
    of the Russians.
    
    Bob Hunt

�    is "sissy" about some of the studs who compete in gymnastics.   Anybody
�    tried an "Iron Cross" on the rings lately ???

	Yes Bob, I have, but since the Aids scare it's not safe to do
anymore.

				/Don

    Don- Please explain what is not safe to do because of the Aids scare.
    I'm at a loss. I can't figure out what you could be refering to.
    Thank you.
    
    
    Sheryl
    
    

    
    Like any sport, it's really hard to get into if you don't know what the
    hell is going on technically.  Appreciate for its beauty, yes, but to
    follow and understand, no (at least for me).
    
    glenn
    

    Yeah /Don, explain yourself.  I can understand how you may relate the
    "pike" position in diving to the AIDS scare, but the Iron Cross just 
    goes beyond me.  
    
    Hawk

    
    394.7 may be obliquely explained by 393.2.
    
    You have to be sick and/or dirty to appreciate /Don.  I know I always
    do. 8^))
    
    Dickster
    

Just buy the 

	"/Don How to Enhance Your Sex Life with Gymnastics Equipment in
	 the Bedroom"

video.  You'll learn everything you need to know in there.  It's
costs $29.95 and comes with a free pamphlet describing other videos
available in the /Don series.


And /Don, the Iron Cross is easy, it's the damned Blue Max that's harder!

'Saw

      Hi,
    
        I did gymnastics in high school and college.  I have to admit,
        I sort of thought it was "fairyish" when I was about 12 or 13, 
        but I ended up trying it after my older brother did it.
    
        All I did competitively was horizontal bar.  It was intense.
        I just loved going around that bar!   And I'll tell you...
        I never did more things that were so scary than some of
        those moves on the high bar.  For example, I did a double
        twisting back layout off the high bar in high school.  That
        first time without a spotting belt, IT WAS SCARY.
    
        My friend did up a double back.  When he did it out of the
        belt, he 'psyched out.'  He let go late and didn't throw
        the bar back (to go 'away' from the bar).  One time, on the
        second somersault, his shoulder blades landed right on top 
        of the bar!  The other time his head missed the bar by about
        a couple inches!  He could'a died.
    
        I don't know...I think it's a really cool sport.
    
        After doing high bar, I could go on any amusement park ride
        and read a book during the 'scariest' parts!
    
        Here's to double Germans and a stalder chute in eagle grip!
    
                                                 Tony
                                                         

    Re. 13: Hi Tony. Which world-class gymnasts do you like?
    
    Have you seen Valeri Liukin(Soviet) on the high bar? Incredible.
    Actually he's terrific all around.
    
    Sheryl
    
    

    
    Personally, I'm in awe of gymnastics.  The height that they gain and
    the mid-air twists, turns, and tumbles they do in the floor exercises
    almost looks beyond the laws of physics.
    
    And the balance beam!  I can't imagine doing a backflip on a railroad
    track raised five feet from the floor.  The image of what might happen
    with a slight miscue sends shivers down my spine.  Must be mighty
    painful for both men and women!
    
    Dickster
    

      Re: .14
    
      Hi Sheryl,
    
        Man, I don't know.  I haven't seen them in awhile.  This goes
        back a few years, but I really liked Tkatchev (sp?).  He had
        an awesome p-bar routine.  Isn't someone out there doing a
        Deltchev with an extra twist?
    
        Historically, I still think for the women Nadia was the best.
        When Olga Korbut was big, I always liked Tourischeva because
        I think she was better, but she never complained even though
        Korbut got all the fans.  I thought she was a classic lady.
        (Thought she was pretty too!)
    
        Do you remember Eberhard Geinger?  He was a West German and
        he competed through his 30's.  I remember (and he was ~30
        or more at the time) he did that stalder in eagle grip.  I
        couldn't believe it.  That must have been over 10 years ago
        and I have yet to see anyone else do that move.  Incredible.
        I mentioned double Germans because I like the move.  I tried
        them (had a single German) but never got the timing for the
        double.  I'd cast out early or late and it would be like doing
        an ellipse.  I would bottom out and be hanging there.  I really
        massacred my shoulders.  Pretty move though.
    
        With my high bar experiences, I am amazed that women are doing
        high bar type moves on that thicker (and not circular) pair
        of uneven bars.
    
        Sheryl...please mention some of your thoughts.  Favorite 
        gymnasts, moves, etc.
    
                                                     Tony
                  

    
    Hello ,
    
     Its nice to see that the air has cleared and the conversations are
    getting towards more to the topic. Besides Kurt Thomas is great and
    everybody thought so when he won all those gold medals during the 
    National Championships, especially since the Japanese dominated the 
    sport. 
    
    
    
                                       Ted

    I was always a fan of the Japanese Men's team - awesome performers.
    I remember seeing  one of those Bud Greenspan documentary's a few
    month's ago - it's story line was the battle between the Russians
    and Japanese for the Men's Team title in one of the Olympics (Munich?)
    
    It was great.  One of the Japanese stars hurt his leg and could
    hardly stand - yet in order for them to win the team competition,
    he had to keep competing.   What a performance - especially on the
    bars when he had to dismount and land on the leg - if he falls,
    he'll get a real low score and the Japanese willlose.  Well gosh
    darn it, the guy does a great dismount and lands, biting his lip.
    Gets the score, the Japanese win!!
    
    Good stuff.
    
    I caint stand women's gymnastics.  Nadia (and her friggin theme)
    and Mary Lou Retchon just soured me to the max!
    
    JD

    
    Give that man a "(tm)" for "Mary Lou Retchon."
    

    JD, unless I'm mistaken (and unlike Dan, I'm not), that gymnist from
    Japan had a *broken* leg.
    
    Mark.

    Lufay, go do some work!
    
    Since I'm *never* mistaken, just like Dan, I know that that Japanese
    gymnast had a broken leg from a previous competition.
    
    He toured the US a few years ago and was well-remembered.
    
    Dan

    Dan give Lufay a break. 
    
    His velour shorts must be too tight.

    Tony,
    
    I've been an avid spectator since the '84  Olympics, I got really 
    caught up in the excitement when the men won the gold. Following that,
    I had a chance to meet Mitch Gaylord and Peter Vidmar. I went to
    an Olympic exhibition also. I have to say that the gymnast I admire
    the most is Tim Daggett, for his dedication and perserverence. He's
    got quite a story.
    
    Tim was on the '84 team. He won a medal on the pommel horse and also
    got a 10 on the high bar which clinched the U.S. team gold.
    Following the games, he was one of the few that continued to compete.
    In late 1987, at the World Championships, he shattered his leg doing
    the vault. If he didn't have emergency surgery oversees, he would
    have lost his leg. He was told he would never do gymnastics again
    (competitive), and 9 months before he could work out.
    The Olympic trials were coming up and about 6 months later he was at
    the trials trying for a spot on the team. He was not completely out
    of it, but halfway through the trials he had to withdraw himself
    because of the intense pain. They interviewed him later and it
    was heartbreaking. I've never seen such a display of courage and
    dedication in my life. Incidently, he was commentating at the
    1990 Goodwill Games.
    
    The terminology is kind of confusing to me since I'm used to watching
    while I hear the different moves. I love the release moves on 
    high bar, and you should see the Soviets doing triples on
    everything! More later.
    
    
    Sheryl
    
    

    I remember that Japanese performer - whatever happened to him ?
    
    I couldn't believe that dismount - on a broken leg - I was in awe ....

    � Its nice to see that the air has cleared and the conversations are
    � getting towards more to the topic.
    
    That would be a first in *this* conference.
    
    Bob Hunt

   � Tim was on the '84 team. He won a medal on the pommel horse and also
   � got a 10 on the high bar which clinched the U.S. team gold.
    
    Daggett was a stud.  He was one of the most exciting athletes of the
    entire 1984 Olympics.
    
    *BUT*, as a matter of principle, I believe *NO* routine should be
    awarded a score of "10.0".   A score of "9.95" should be the highest. 
    "Tens" cheapen the sport and lead to even worse political games off the
    mat as coaches and other team officials run around like jerks
    complaining about the scoring.
    
    Actually, I'm not crazy about *any* sport that is scored by so-called
    impartial judges and that includes figure skating as well as
    gymnastics.
    
    Bob Hunt

    I agree with Bob Hunt in his feelings towards sports like gymnastics
    and figure skating.
    
    The events in mens gymnastics are floor exercise (no music), vault
    (with the vaulting box turned so they have to vault it lengthwise),
    pommel horse, rings, parallel bars and horizontal bar.  Womens
    gymnastics has floor exercise (to music, often becoming bastardized to
    dancing), vault (with the vaulting box turned so they have to jump it
    widthwise), uneven parallel bars and balance beam.
    
    John

    	Off the topic, but...
    
    	My daughter is a member of Nashua's Spartans Drum and Bugle
    	Corps. Last summer, the consistently came in second to 
    	the Ventures, usually a point or two behind.
    
    	Both the Spartans and the Ventures go to the Finals in
    	Buffalo, NY. In their class, the Ventures came in 1st,
    	the Spartans came in 7th. My daughter said that many,
    	many people came up and said they could not believe
    	that the Spartans came in 7th.
    
    	The coaches and instructors for the Spartans said there
    	were new judges for that competition. These judges had
    	never seen the Spartans, and judged accordingly. (I don't
    	know what "never seen the Spartans" has to do with it.)
    
    	I told her my daughter to do something that was not judged.
    	Look at the fiasco as the summer olympics with the boxers.
    
    	Scott

      Hi Sheryl,
    
        The only time I ever saw Tim Dagget 'live' was at UMass/Amherst.
        I was on the team there and I went to practice.  I see this
        kid doing double back layouts off the high bar.  (Lay out
        means his body is straight all the way).  He did other awesome
        stuff.
    
        I asked another guy on the team "Who IS That guy?"
    
        "Oh, that's Tim Dagget, he lives in Westfield.  He's a freshman
         in high school and he just came here to practice."
    
        Yeah, he was something.  (Incredible...just a freshman!)
    
        I gotta explain the stalder in eagle grip.  Eagle grip is like
        say you have a broom and you're holding it behind your back
        with both hands.  The hands are faced palm forward.  Now take
        that broom and raise it.  Then let your head back and dislocate
        your shoulders (keep holding onto that broom!).  THAT'S eagle
        grip.  It's like if you have your arms raised and your palms
        are facing away from you.  Rotate eah arm 180 degrees to the
        outside.  That's eagle grip.
    
        Now a stalder is a move where you're going around the bar and
        at the top you bring your legs down (usually spread).  You
        rotate around the bar and your legs come back out after one
        rotation and you're back at a handstand position.
    
        Now, plenty of people have done stalders (thousands).  Plenty
        have done eagle giants (going around the bar in eagle grip).
        But only ONE has done a stalder in eagle grip - Eberhard Geinger.
    
        That was many years ago.  Hundreds of international competitors
        have had the chance to do it.  I've yet to see a single other
        person do it.
    
        Sheryl, I'd have gotten back to you sooner, but I just got
        into this Conference for the first time in a few days.
    
                                               So Long,
                                                                
                                               Tony

Gee, that Eagle grip stuff sounds kinda like when the other
team wheels a scrum and it collapses all at the same time.
Joints are poppin' out all over the place, and guys are
yelling a word that begins with "F", that is if they can
do more than just grunt....

I'm impressed....

'Saw

    Hi Tony,
    
    I'm glad you wrote back. I can't believe you saw Tim Daggett when
    he was a freshman in high school! I think these days he's about
    29. Where is Westfield? I know that he was on the UCLA team and I
    believe he is still involved in coaching. Like I said before, he
    is my idol and I think I would give anything to meet him and talk
    to him.
    
    Anyway, I understand the two moves you described, but not done
    together. I guess it's because I've never actually seen it done.
    I do know who Eberhart Geinger(sp.) is, he's still judging at
    the international level.
    
    In the past few years since I've "acquired this hobby", I've never
    actually met a gymnast. It's really great to hear about these things
    firsthand from someone who's actually done them. 
    
    The world championships are coming up this month, I'm really looking
    forward to that. You should check out the current Soviet team. Talk
    about incredible! I keep checking the TV Guide, if you see it coming
    on TV, please let me know.
    
    Well gotta run, thanks for getting back.
    
                                        Sheryl
    

Hans:  Franz, haf you noticed how tight Tim Dagget's buttocks is,
       und how it cuts up so nicely

Franz: Ya, Hans, I haf noticed that [to himself:  Why do I keep thinking
       about Tim Dagget's buttocks?]

Hans:  But Franz, haf you noticed how shapely it is, und how cut up
       it is, und how flex-ible Tim Dagget is?

Franz: [To himself: Why am I haf-ing these thoughts?]  [Cut to
        Time Dagget riding a horse, wind blowing through his hair]

Hans:  Franz?  Franz?.......



With apologies to Saturday Night Live 8^)
'Saw

    
    re: -2/ Dagget
    
    	Tim Dagget is a graduate of West Springfield High School, not
    Westfield which is the next town over heading west.  
    
    	If you want to meet Tim, he has a gym in Agawam which is only
    a stones throw from Springfield/West Springfield where he teaches
    the little ones.  I don't know its exact location or the name of
    the place, but there was an article in the paper this week showing
    one of his prized pupils that will be attending UCLA.
    
    								bill..g.
    

      Hi Sheryl,
    
        Hey...I did some neat stuff, but there's light years from
        what I did and what they did!  Still, those were some fun
        times.  High bar was cool.  Tough on the hands though.
    
        That move of Geinger's I was explaining must be absolute
        hell on the shoulders.  Man, the tension on the shoulders.
    
        Please let me knoiw about those world games if you find
        out when they are too, ok?
    
                                        Tony

    Hi Tony,
    
    I've been keeping a close eye on the TV Guide. The competition is 
    usually late October but I've been noticing that these things aren't
    shown on television till later on,  I'll keep watching for it.
    Nothing else is really new.
    
    
                                   Sheryl
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Hi,
    
    I found this topic just a few minutes ago.
    
    Yup, I train gymnastics. I don't know how many of you do that.
    My favourites are rings, because they have such balance and
    strength requirements that others don't. I train often not with
    only other gymnasts but also some fellows that do balancing
    stunts in circus: one-arm handstands on top of five rolls etc.
    I like that is thrilling too.
    
    Bob, about those things you said about little girls considered as
    'women'. I mostly agree with you. But that is the fact in all
    sports. To be in top you have to train a lot. Not only in
    gymnastics but in all sports, ice hockey, swimming, athletics...
    And I think gymnastics is still a better choice than for example
    basketball.
    
    Tero

      Hi Sheryl,
    
        I'm sorry I didn't find out sooner, but last week they had
        some good competition; it might have been the World Games.
        The highlight for me was one of the competitor's (I thing
        Li Jing is the name) did a straight-legged Gaylord which is
        a release from the high bar from giants and a front flip and
        a half regrasp back into front giants.
    
        High bar is IT for me!
    
        Re: .37
    
        Hi,
    
        I don't know...it seems to me rings just aren't versatile
        enough.  It's basically, do up your cross or planche, do a
        few giants, and hopefully have a real nice dismount like 
        maybe a laid out full-in.  Rings look too much the same
        for me.
    
        BUT, some guy on the TV (like I said thought it might have
        been the world games) did up swing moves and did HALF turns.
        This was something I never saw before.  (I have no handle on
        how difficult it is.)
    
                                             Tony

    Hi Tony,
    
    I did see it!! I saw it in the tv guide last minute. It wasn't
    World Championships though. It was some all-around by invitation
    only. Only 2 competitors from each country. The straight-legged
    Gaylord WAS fabulous to say the least. The move on the rings was
    a Yamawaki with a half turn, crossing the rings. First time I
    saw that. Also, flips over the parallel bars in the middle of 
    the routines are starting to pop up. What did you think of the
    two Soviets? Valeri Belenki and Vitali Scherbo. Too bad there
    was only two. Valeri Liukin is my favorite. (Silver all-around
    medalist, several individual medals in Seoul--Gold all-around
    medalist at the Goodwill Games,etc...) He is not the most
    consistant and precise, but he is without a doubt, the most
    daring.
    
    Catch the commentator? None other than Tim Daggett.
    
    Sheryl
    
    

    Hi all,
    
    Liukin is one of my favourites, too. He is the only one I have
    seen doing a triple-back somersault in floor.
    .38, yes, in rings when you just do one cross and planche and
    some giants, it becomes boring. But when you look for example
    Juri Chechi from Italy or Germanys Andreas Wecker, I think
    you, too, will find those stregth movements fabulous.
    
    Tero

    .40
    
    A few years ago I had the thrill of seeing Luikin attempt the
    triple on floor at a meet in Phoenix. Since then, he has executed
    the move successfully. His high bar routines are the most fun
    to watch. Nice to see them smiling now.
    
    Sheryl