Conference 7.286::sports_90

    Even if the ratings per category is fair the total is meaningless.  Who
    is to say one category is as importance as another?  I am still not
    convinced a player granted physical and mobile and all that like
    Randall Cunningham is really as great as he is touted as all the time.
    
    Charles

    Yeah, somehow I knew that Randall Cunningham showing up as No. 3 on
    this list was going to spark some debate.
    
    The list is just the opinion of some person or some group.   A
    different list could easily be generated.  Remember, people use
    statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post.    They use them for support
    and *not* for illumination.
    
    And as for Randall Cunningham and his No. 3 rating on this list, you
    can argue all day long about whether or not he's overrated.   Just
    listen to an opposing team's coach a day or two before a game against
    the Eagles.   He won't mention his team's first defensive priority is
    stopping Keith Byars or Anthony Toney or Mike Quick or Keith Jackson. 
    On the contrary, opposing defenses worry quite a bit about Randall
    Cunningham.   Not by accident, either.
    
    He's got a long, long way to go to achieve greatness.  I wouldn't trade
    him for any other quarterback except maybe Montana in a total panic
    effort to reach for the top just once before he's gone.
    
    Bob Hunt

    I personally will disregard any list that doesn't have Tony Eason
    on it.
    
    On a serious note, Bob is right.  His quote "people use statistics
    like a drunk uses a lamp post.  They use them for support and *not*
    for illumination." points out the biggest fallacy with sports stats.
    Rather than using statistics to draw a conclusion, people (most
    notably, sportswriters) draw a conclusion first and then find the
    stats to support that conclusion.  We do it here in the endless
    debate between the Russell fans and the Chamberlain fans, and it's
    funny that fellow Celtics fans uses the same arguments that favor
    Russell and then turn around and use the same argument against Magic
    Johnson in the endless Magic vs Bird debates.
    
    Despite what Bill James has said, there are intangibles about any
    athlete that can't be measured but which are certainly there.
    
    Finally, remember an article like this is one person's opinion or
    a compilation of opinions, nothing more.  It isn't worth getting
    upset about.
    
    John

    Where was Aikman or Walsh?  It sure is dissapointing to see no Cowboys 
    represented.

    < Note 268.4 by FSHQA1::JRODOPOULOS >


>    Where was Aikman or Walsh?  It sure is dissapointing to see no Cowboys 
>    represented.

    Get used to it.
    
    Mark.

    I don't understand how John Elway can be given a 9 out of 10 for
    passing touch.  He has 1 speed and it's fast.  He has never in his life
    dropped a touch pass in over the linebackers.  It doesn't compute.
    
    Glenn

    RE:-1 Cunningham
    
    I actually had thoughts of Cunningham when I initially saw the rating
    in the Football Digest,but the ranking without any "objective" type
    information left me "cold". I think too that if you feel your Team's
    QB is rated high you have no "beef", otherwise you do. So other than
    to get some thoughts going the list is just that "just another list".
    
    They listed the "top" twenty only.
    
    Edwin
    

    
    Troy Aikman + 3 years = Superbowl.
    
    
    d.s.
    

    .9�    Troy Aikman + 3 years = Superbowl.
    
    	Troy Aikman + 3 years = Tolet-bowl!
    
    B.A. Get a grip Dave!

    Hey /Don, you're wrong. Of course, you usually are.
    
    OK Rappers, start practicing for Giantmania...
    
    
    "Kenny O is rated way too low"
    "Kenny O is rated way too low"
    "He's not real big, he's a little slow"
    "but YO, he's rated way too low"
    "we all just love to watch him throw"
    "down the sidelines go go go"
    "he tosses that touchdown to Jo Jo"
    "With Toon and Blair, he'll put on a show"
    "He's one of the best, y'all cain see"
    "Cuz he throws the ball for the long TD"
    
    Be ready to sing this /Don, cuz Kenny O is gonna pick apart those wimpy
    Giants. 
    
    JoJ

Here's the revised version:


    "Hey Homeboy!"
    
    "Kenny O is rated way too low"
    "Kenny O is rated way too low"
    "He's not real big, he's a little slow"
    "but YO, he's rated way too low"

    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"
    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"
    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"
    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"

    "we all just love to watch him throw"
    "down the sidelines go go go"
    "he tosses that touchdown to Jo Jo"
    "With Toon and Blair, he'll put on a show"

    "STOP...Wardle Time"

    "He's one of the best, y'all cain see"
    "Cuz he throws the ball for the long TD"
    
    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"
    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"
    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"
    "Pump it to the beat, pump it to the beat"



    JoJ (with a_assist from DJ Chainsaw)

    Thanks Frank....remember to bring a copy so that /Don cain sing it for
    us.
    
    JoJ

    
    HEY MAN....BE COOL DUDE.....DON'T CHA KNOW.....
    
    	Bernie Baby, he's our man...
    	He's bad, thats right, he's bad.
    
    	There's no doubt
    	Lets all shout....
    
    	The Browns are best
    	better than the rest....
    
    	Pump it up!  Pump it up!
    
    	We like, We like,  the Dawg house
    	where there is no mouse...
    
    	Lets all shout...
    
    
    	Pump it up!  Pump it up!
    
    	This is the year
    	so don't you fear....
    	
    	Lets hear it, 
    		WOOF, WOOF
    	Lets hear it.......
    
    	We'll get the ring
    	without a fling!
    
    
    
    	Signed......The leader of the pack......WOOF GANG!
    

Maybe we should change the title of this note to

		Rapping the NFL Quarterbacks


8^)

    This is my modified rating of the QB's in the basenote.
    
    (This ought to get people started ... heh heh heh ....)
    
    
    
    The Editors of Football Digest Magazine rate the quarterbacks in the
    NFL:

Category

Led=Leadership
Pas=Passing Accuracy
Tch=Passing Touch
Vsn=Field Vision
Spd=Speed
Agl=Agility
Clt=Clutch Play
Dur=Durability
Arm=Arm Strength
Rsh=Avoiding the Rush
Rank Player,Team                Led Pas Tch Vsn Spd Agl Clt Dur Arm Rsh  Total
                                   
 1. Joe Montana,49ers            10  10  10  10   8  10  10  8   8.5  10  95.5
 2. Randall Cunningham,Eagles   9.5  8.5 9   9  10  10  8.5 10   9   10   93.5
 3. Warren Moon, Oilers          10  8.5 9   9   9  9.5  9   9  10   10   93
 4. Boomer Esiason,Bengals       10  10  10  10   7  9    8 8.5  9.5  9   91
 5. Bernie Kosar,Browns           9  10  10   9   6   6  8.5  6  7.5  8   88
 6. John Elway, Broncos           9   7   6   8  10  10   9   9  10  10   87
 7. Dan Marino,Dolphins           9  10  10   9  6.5  7   9   9  10   7   86.5
 8. Jim Everett,Rams              8   9   9   9   8   8   8   9  10   8   86
 9. Don Majkowski,Packers        10   8   8   8   9   9   9   7  8.5  8   84.5 
10. Jim Kelly,Bills               6   8   8   7   8   8   8   9  10   8   80
10. Phil Simms,Giants             9   8   8   8   7   7   8   9   9   7   80
12. Mark Rypien,Redskins          8   8   8   8   7   7   8   7  9.5  8   78.5
14. Dave Kreig,Seahawks           8   8   8   8   7   8   7   9   7   7   77
17. Steve Young,49ers             7   8   6  6.5  9  10   7   7   7   9.5  77 
13. Wade Wilson,Vikings          6.5 7.5  7  6.5  9   8   7   7   8   9   75.5
15. Vinny Testaverde,Bucs         7   6   7   6   8   7   6   8  9.5  7.5  72
16. Chris Miller,Falcons          8   7   8   7   7   8   6   6   8   7   72
19. Buddy Brister,Steelers        8   7   7   7   7   7   7   6  8.5   7   71.5
18. Steve DeBerg,Chiefs           7   8   8   8   6   6   6   7   7   8   70
20. Ken O'Brien,Jets              6   8   8   7   7   6   6   7   8   6   69
    
    Edwin

    
    	ya gota rate Bernie above those guys.......he's beaten them
    every time....except Marino....the drug lord....what ever happened
    with that anyway???  
    
    

    
      >	Bernie Baby, 
      >	He's bad, thats right, he's bad.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       
      Now this part I wholeheartedly agree with.
                                       
      Dickster
    

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Rap THIS, FaKe ......

�    Rap THIS, FaKe ......


U Can't Rap this....8^)


Rap, like any other form of music, has something to offer.  I 
never used to listen to rap, and a lot of it still doesn't do
much for me, but, having always been extremely open minded
about most music, I gave it a real good listen.

There a few rap tunes out there I really like...


'Saw

   I'm sitting here trying to gag down my lunch, answer stoopid questions,
   and catch up on SPORTS..... so what happens? 

   The Incredible Cretins Of The Death Sun start a Rap contest!

   I think I'm gonna fwow up!

   Mike JN

�
�   The Incredible Cretins Of The Death Sun start a Rap contest!
�


Mike JN, you'd better TM that sucker or I'm gonna steal it.  What
a great name for a band.  That blows away "Frank Wave and the Ozone
Invaders", and makes mincemeat of "White Hot and Blue", the two
names of my most recently planned endeavours....

Too cool,
'Saw

    Hey, how about "Frank and the Sweaters"...I've seen you sweat. No one
    will know what the hell the name means.
    
    JoJ

   How `bout 

   	Ball Park Frank And The Sweater Bimbos??

   	or

   	Park The Sweaty Bimbo And Ball, Frank ?????? NAAAAHHH!

   Mike JN

Hey, I sweat alright.  I'd be perfect for a Gatorade ad.
But then I've always sweat a lot.

It started when I was a kid.  Always had to have some
paragoric when my stomach was upset.  From there it progressed
to cookin up spoonfuls behind the Jr High.

By the time I graduated first in my class I was nothing more
than a strung out junkie with a genius level IQ.

Then in college I discovered mushrooms.  To this day I can't
drive my car home without hallucinating.  It makes for a harrowing
day.   From time to time the three brain cells I have left let
me know they don't approve.

So, kids, there you have it.  Just say no.  Just say no to sweating!

'Saw

PS  Mike JN, since I saw Roy Orbison during my lunch time run today,
    I've decided to call the band "Adolf, Elvis and Roy"...whatta ya
    think?

   `Adolph, Elvis, and the Rookie of the Year'.... I like it
    King me Suckah
    Quietus Interruptus
    Staph Affection
    Tortured Squirrel
    Knight of the Loving Dead
    Snap, Popple and Crack
    Stray Nipples

    ...and so it goes
   Mike JN

    re: .25                                                        
    
   >>   or...   Park The Sweaty Bimbo And Ball, Frank ??????     <<
    
    I prefer.....
    
    		"Park, and Ball The Sweaty Bimbo, Frank!!"
    
    Woof,
    PJ

�    		"Park, and Ball The Sweaty Bimbo, Frank!!"
    

You guys are a hoot... Really.  

I'm gonna call my band Loinal Fire, and we'll play the hottest blues
this side of the Delta.  The pain from years and years of paying
dues will throb inside our music, and as the sweat pours out of
us so will the meanest riffs you've ever heard.  Mere mortals, we'll
transcend the bondage of our mortality, and reach for heaven through
our Pain.

We'll do a little testifyin...yeah, just a little testifyin...

As Muddy Waters used to say:  "I got it Johnny, I got it..."


'Saw, who needs a fix right about now...

    The RIGHT way the two Top Guns SHOULD be rated:
    
    1. Joe Montana [of course]
    2. Jim Everett [in the shadow of Joe]
    
       No one else comes close.

    Just a few LITTLE things I dont agree with......
    
    Joe Montana Rsh rating is 9 and Randall Cunningham's is 10.
    HMMMM.....Randall would never get sacked with all the protection
    and type of offense that Montana has.
    
    Montana's Arm and Cunningham's arm are both rated a 9.  Give me
    a break.  Cunningham's ability to throw on the run at HIGH speed
    should edge out Montana's rating.
    
    Joe Montana is one of the BEST QB'S to EVER play the game, but to
    say that last year.  Randall Cunningham was the 2nd best QB last
    year period.
    
    
    RUB_who_wishes_Randall_was_a_CHICAGO_BEAR!!!!

    Re:.30
    That would be way overrating Everett and this comes from the opinion of
    a true Everett fan.
    
    Charles

    I like Randall CUnningham.  I loathe when the Jints have to play
    him.  I also think that Randall Cunningham is perhaps the most
    overhyped, overrated QB in the game.  I start rolling when folks
    start comparing him to a Joe Montana.  Now that is RICH!  Montana
    is the greatest QB to ever play the game.  Randall is no where near
    his level.  Nor is anyone else except John Unitas.
    
    JD

    >> Montana is the greatest QB to ever play the game.  
    >> Randall is no where near his level.  Nor is anyone 
    >> else except John Unitas.
    
    >> JD
    
    What about Joe Namath??  [insert grand� smiley here]
    
    Bull~
    

    
    
    Otto Graham... the greatest winning QB of all time... PERIOD!

      Being a Packer fan, I hope Majkowski fares really well.
      I've seen it in print more than once that a few 49'ers
      were quoted as saying they think he's gonna be the next
      Joe Montana.
    
      As far as historical best...man, I really liked Sonny
      Jurgensen.  It seemed like when he was in his prime, the
      Cowboys/Redskins were always playing on national TV.  
      Poor Washington had little defense, no running, only an 
      awesome pass offense (which of course is never enough).
    
      But, could that guy thread the needle!  He was my
      favorite.
    
      In '67, the Redskins tore up the NFL passwise.  As far
      as total receptions are concerned, their 3 top receivers
      were (I think) 1, 2, and 4.  I believe the order was
      Charley Taylor, Jerry Smith, and Bobby Mitchell.
                   
                                         Tony

    >> Being a Packer fan, I hope Majkowski fares really well. I've seen it
    >> in print more than once that a few 49'ers were quoted as saying they
    >> think he's gonna be the next Joe Montana.
    
    Yeah, Don Majkowski from that noted football factory school in that
    noted major powerhouse football conference.
    
    Go Wahoos !!!   Go ACC !!!
    
    Bob Hunt

I've always liked Bart Starr.  The man had a very good work ethic,
and was part of an awesome team that was a dynasty...

Staubach, much as this Giants fan hates to admit it, was awesome in
his own right.  Never can I remember a QB, save Unitas or Starr,
that, when he crouched behind the center starting a two-minute drill,
was almost certain to win the game.  Mr. Clutch....

JMHO,
'Saw

    re .40
    
    I was reading a game program last year, and the main article discussed
    the top QB's of all time. And more than a few scouts picked Sonny.
    I'll never forget what one of them said, "Unitas was good ... but
    Sonny stood next to God as a passer, and God couldn't throw the
    deep out like Sonny could ...."
    
    When they speak of pure passers, I always hear his name. 
    
    Staubach was a bad a** so-and-so too - and I hate the Cowboys. But
    I've got to give the devil his due - if Staubach got the ball in
    the last two minutes, you had better have an 8 point lead - or he'd
    leave you for dead .....
    
    Fouts could slice apart a defense like few could, but he was useless
    under a inside rush ....

    >> Staubach was a bad a** so-and-so too - and I hate the Cowboys. But
    >> I've got to give the devil his due - if Staubach got the ball in the
    >> last two minutes, you had better have an 8 point lead - or he'd leave
    >> you for dead .....
    
    Make that a 15 point lead if you're the Redskins ...
    
    Bob Hunt

Bob --

You cain't leave the Giants out of that equation.

You don't know how many times Sunday dinner was spoiled by the
indigestion Roger created when he'd run his two minute drill
against my Giants.

Talk about relief and R-O-L-A-I-D-S, when Roger would start
the two minute drill, my dad would just reach for the Alka-Seltzer....

And I have to take my hat off to any man who's played pro sports
coming out of the military acadamies.  To serve your commitment,
and stay in good enough shape to play afterwards is certainly
an accomplishment...

'Saw

    Agree with the accolades for Roder The Dodger.  While not a fan
    of the Cowboys, I nevertheless always enjoyed watching him play.
    
    To this day, he's kept his profile very clean.  He is *certainly*
    a positive role model for America's youth.
    
    Lee

    
    	BER     NIE
    
    			BER   NIE
    
    					BER  NIE
    
    		BER NIE
    
    				BERNIE!!!
    
    	HIS DAY WILL COME.....
    
    		THIS YEAR!!!
    
    	WOOF!

    
    Heard somewhere in passing:
    
       "John Elway found God...
    
                   ...but he overthrew him for an interception."
    
    Dickster
    

    I knew you football whizzes would find at least one Cowboy player to be
    considered as among the best ever.  

    >>	HIS DAY WILL COME.....
    
    >>		THIS YEAR!!!
    
    >>	WOOF!

    
    Yeah, his day in the hospital after game 1!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
    

    
    This sounds like a winner to me... 10 years in professional football.
    10 years to the league championship game...  7 times league champion.

>You don't know how many times Sunday dinner was spoiled by the
>indigestion Roger created when he'd run his two minute drill
>against my Giants.
    
    I think that goes for every team that ever played against the Cowboys
    when Staubach was the QB.  But how many times did those teams fall into
    the "prevent" in the last two minutes?  The prevent was everything but. 
    I could never understand it.  I never saw one team exercise the prevent
    defense to their favor...and great quarterbacks always took
    advantage of the lack of rush.
    
    	--dan'l
    

    Just a little dastictic for all of you Cowboy "lovers"...
    
    Upon his retirement it was reported that Roger had come from behind to
    win 24 games in the last two minutes.
    
    FWIW...Your Giants/Redskins fans may have reached for the Rolaids in
    the last two minutes, but rest assured that the Cowboy fans reached for
    them also, because you could never be sure that he was going to make it
    this time.  After so many you just got to thinking that his time he
    won't be able to do it.  He gave all of us more thrills and upset
    stomachs than probably any other QB who has played.  Truly a remarkable
    athlete and human being.
    
    One of the greatest games ever played, IMO, was his very last regular
    season game against the Redskins.  Went somehting like Cowboys down by
    13, then up by 14, then down by 13 or 14, then won by 1 point in the
    last 2 minutes (again).  Riggins ran wild that day, but Roger refused
    to give up.  An absolute nail biter, the way football is supposed to be
    played.

    My wife hated Roger. We would tune in for "60 Minutes" at 7:00 PM
    EST every Sunday and there was Roger. The clock said 2:00 left and
    I'd tell my wife, "Just a few more minutes, dear." 
    
    But Roger milked those 2 minutes into 30 minutes of airtime every
    Sunday, it seemed.
    
    Roger wasn't the only guy famous for this, though. George Blanda
    made Curt Gowdy famous doing play-by-play for NBC when LaMonica
    was the starter. Ole George would come in with the Raiders down
    and pass them to a tie - then kick them to a win.
    
    Rich
    

      RE: .43
    
      All right!  Another person mentions Sonny Jurgenson!  Imagine,
      we are the only ones to even utter his name!  Surely he at least
      deserves mention.
    
      Lombardi was quoted as saying Starr was the best.  Then, when
      he coached the 'Skins, he said Sonny was the best.  He was
      then made aware of his past comments on Starr and he said
      something like Starr was mentally the best and Sonny was
      physically the best.   Certainly, it is highly possible that
      the main motivation of his comments were to instill the utmost
      confidence in his quarterback.
    
      I was going to mention Staubach.  Man, 24 come from behinds! 
      I had no idea it was that many.  The game I remember was the
      playoff come from behind against the 49'ers.  That was an
      incredible comeback.  The 49'ers thought they had it won and
      they were plenty cocky on the sidelines.  I was rooting for
      the 49'ers though as I always liked Brodie and his throws to
      the likes of Gene Washington and Ted Kwalick.  San Francisco
      might have been up by 20 (at least 13) in that one.
    
      I also remember the 'Hail Mary.'  I really wanted the Vikings
      and I think that was the year they would've won it.  That one
      wasn't so much the pass, it was just a goofed up play.  The
      Vikings seemed to have either Joe Kapp and a young defense or
      an old defense and Fran Tarkenton.  Never quite enough.
    
      By the way, speaking of Joe Kapp.  Certainly nobody's pick for
      best QB, but perhaps my favorite play of any quarterback I've
      ever seen.  It was '69 in the championship game (prior to the
      Super Bowl) against the Browns.  It was a broken play near the
      Browns endzone and so Kapp just lowered his head and BULLDOZED
      his way right into a Browns linebacker.  The guy was knocked out
      cold!  I doubt I'll ever again see a QB knock out a linebacker!
    
                                                    Tony     

    
    >      I was going to mention Staubach.  Man, 24 come from behinds! 

    Clearly, Bernie has the best shot at beating this record.
    
    Dickster
    

    George Blanda is my sentimental favorite only because my dad looks
    exactly like him; identical, to the T, spitting image, could be twins,
    etc.
    
    One time we were on the beach in NJ and this group of young guys was
    looking over at my dad for about � hour.  Finally, one of them gets up
    and walks over.  "Scuse me, sir.  My friends and I were wondering if
    you were George Blanda."
    
    He got questions like this all the time.  This time he decided to have
    some fun.  He said that he was.  The guys scrambled for any piece of
    paper they could find and my dad signed four autographs, "Best wishes,
    George Blanda."
    
    One of those guys wasn't you, was it Bob Hunt?  Would have really
    freaked them out had he signed his real name, "Best wishes, Nufrie
    Medvid."
    
    	--dan'l

    Nah, Dan'l, that had to be a "bennie".  Otherwise known as out-of-town
    tourists, "bennies" are those obnoxious sub-specie invaders that come
    down in waves from New York or North Jersey to invade the Jersey Shore
    beaches.   You know the kind ...  Plaid polyester Bermuda shorts, black
    socks and open-toed sandals, an old "I'm With Stupid ===>" T-shirt, and
    a floppy beach hat.   They drive old Ford Fairlanes and they never ever
    have the exact change at the Garden State Parkway toll booths.
    
    Wardle was a "bennie", no doubt.
    
    Me, I'm a tried-and-true, native Jersey Shore beach boy.  We would
    never have asked someone for an autograph.   We were way too cool. 
    *If* George Blanda were at the beach, we'd have asked him if he wanted
    to catch some bitchin' waves, dude.
    
    Bob Hunt

       Rank   Player              Years
       ----   ------              -----

         1.   Joe Montana  	  1979-
         2.   Sammy Baugh	  1937-52
         3.   Terry Bradshaw	  1970-83
         4.   Norm Van Brocklin   1949-60
         5.   Otto Graham         1946-55
         6.   Roger Staubach      1969-79
         7.   Ken Anderson        1971-84
         8.   Y.A. Tittle	  1948-64
         9.   Bobby Lane          1948-62
        10.   Fran Tarkenton	  1961-78
        11.   Sid Luckman         1939-50
        12.   Johnny Unitas	  1956-73
        13.   Dan Marino	  1983-
        14.   Dan Fouts		  1973-87
        15.   John Elway	  1983-
        16.   Sonny Jurgensen	  1957-74
        17.   Len Dawson	  1957-75
        18.   Joe Namath	  1965-77
        19.   Ken Stabler	  1970-84
        20.   John Brodie	  1957-73
      
        Edwin

    The true measure of a GREAT QB is the big games. There were many great
    names brought up in this note. Sonny, Johnny U., Buagh, Stabler,
    Stabauch, Montana, to name a few, I probably missed a couple. The point
    is that in no way can you compare the likes of Kosar, Elway, Everett,
    and the classic, choke the big game, Cunningham. A truly great QB
    raises his level of play and LEADS his team to the end. Everett and
    Cunningham have both been guilty of throwing in the towel near the end
    of the game and until they can prove that thay want to win more than
    the other guy when it counts, they will never deserve the title GREAT!
    
    RG

    RG,
    
    	I (liking the 'skins) am a big fan of Sonny.  But, did he
    	ever win an NFL champeenship?  Seriously, I don't know.
    
    	What do you define as a big game?  Is the AFC championship
    	game a big game?
    
    Claybone

    Redskins never won an NFL title under Sonny.  They went title-less
    between 1942 (when Sammy Baugh was the QB) and 1982 (when Joe Theismann
    was the QB).  They played in 1 Super Bowl during Sonny's career, the
    1973 Super Bowl, which they lost to Miami, and Billy Kilmer was the
    starter.
    
    John