Conference 7.286::sports_90

       Hey DOck, you put the wrong title on your .0. We all know this
    is the 'joke note'.
                                   denny

    
    Rumor has it that the Oilers were so worried about the Browns game
    next week that they decided to take two weeks to prepare for the
    season finale.  Oiler management sent the Houston Cougars to
    Cincinnati, which could explain the 61-7 final score.  I think the
    Bengals were favored by 85 against the Oilers.  The Cougars are 
    currently the highest rated football team in Houston.
    
    The Oilers have never won an AFC Central title... last years loss
    to the Browns in the season finale, cost them the title.
    
    Cleveland plays Houston for the title next week.  BTW, the Oilers
    can still end up in a tie for last place...
    
    Cleveland  9-6-1
    Cincinnati 9-7
    Pittsburgh 9-7
    Houston    9-7 (last place)
    
    Go Oilers, what a team.  1.5 games up with 2 games left and they
    are on the verge of matching DrM great CHOKE feat in the Nashua
    Touch Football league.

    
    
    talk about a "blowout"...61-7 OUCH!!!!!!!  could not of happened
    to a nicer team
    
    
    re -1
    
    If Houston loses and Pittsburgh wins, Houston would still be in
    3rd place since it owns 2 victories over Pittsburgh

    Someone offered me the Oilers and 52 and I took it! How did I do?
    

    
    Wyche rubbed it in... and I love it.  Up 45-0 and having just scored
    a TD, the Bengals executed and recovered an on-side kick!
    
    GO OILER SCUM!  What a team.

    
    How can a team be so scary at home..  and so terrible on the road?  
    
    Interesting how NBC said that Wyche was running up the score for 
    potential tie breaker advantages...  then Wyche turns around and says
    it was because he can't stand the team.. ha ha.  
    
    Liked that quote from Sam..  "Send me a note if you find anyone who
    likes Gerry Glanville.."   or something like that.
    
    Another classic from one of the many pre-game shows...:  
    Gerry Glanville:  "I knew Sam Wyche when he was a player, 
    he's no hero of mine" .. interviewer: "and why is that Gerry?"  ..
    Gerry: "Because of what he said about the great fans of Cleveland"..  
    
    HAHA was he serious?  You make the call!          
    

    Excuse me, but who is in first place in the AFC Central today ?

    
    Excuse me, but who's gotten blown out more times than Pittsburgh this 
    year?  

    Houston 9 6 0
    
    
    Clevscum 8 6 1
                                                                
    Out of the playoffs ...
    
    Cincy 8 7 0 (Oh yes, but they did blow out Houston ....) :-)
    
    Pitt.
    
    
    You know "Prime Time Paul" (your choke jobs, are the stuff of legend),
    you demonstrate the utter stupidity of a Clowns fan.
    
    Sam Wyche pulled a stupid move in running up the score. That was
    the worse thing that could have ever happened to the Browns. 
    
    Now your coming to the House Of Pain on Saturday, to face a fired
    up Oiler team, 60,000 pumped-up fans (hopefully, I'll be one of
    them), with that pathetic football team.
    
    Yup, keep on drooling GROAN-owski .... and enjoy Xmas at home in
    the City Of Pain (Clevescum) !!!!!
    
    HAHHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!
    
    Yup, 61-7 was one hell of a beating, but it adds up the same as
    21-20 - 1 loss in the standings. Houston still clinches the division
    with a win or tie on Saturday. 
    
    And home field in at least the first round game too ....
    
    Keep laughing Pauline - I can look at the standings for consolation.
    
    What can you do ?
       
    heh heh heh
    
    DrM        
    

    I have a feeling Wyche made a mistake yesterday if he despises the
    Oilers as much as it appears.  By badmouthing them, and questioning
    their desire, he's thrown gasoline on whatever spark they may have had
    left.  If he had just shut up, praised his team, and not knocked the
    Oilers, the humiliation of the slaughter would have been more
    demoralizing.
    
    					Steve

    
    	Yeah, Wyche is really starting to irritate me too.  Minnesota
    will put Cincinatti where they belong.  Out of the playoff picture.

    
    	nice note, care to translate it for me?  i forgot my cap'n crunch
    invisible decoder marker set  :)
    
    sean

    Hey Doc 12am, you didn't like the 61 points the bengals scored
    yesterday?
    
    Seems to me you thought it was great when Andre Ware and co. scored
    90 some pts....that was funny, but yesterday wasn't, right?
    
    Well, this one's for you....HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW, Houston got freakin'
    humiliated. I loved it, Wyche loved it, and every Brown fan probably
    loved it too. 
    
    Houston will not win next week. Bernie and Co. will beat them. Also,
    we AFC fans should all pray that Houston doesn't make the playoffs
    because if they should get to the soooper bowl, it will be humiliating
    for all AFC fans.
    
    JoJ

    Actually yesterday's humiliation and Wyche's remarks were probably the
    best thing that could have happened to Houston.  Houston just doesn't
    play well unless their backs are to the wall.  The Cincy blowout will
    help motivate the Oilers for their game against the Browns in the House
    of Pain.  If Houston had clinched the division yesterday, they would
    have been "fat and happy" at home next week just ripe for the Browns to
    win and upset the Oilers momentum going into the playoffs.  Now, with
    the AFC Central title on the line and a bitter defeats in the back of
    their minds, the Oilers are going to come out smokin'.
    
    Wyche had the right idea going into the game, beat Houston badly so
    they would be too beat up to play the Browns, thus keeping Cincy's
    playoff hopes alive.  The plan backfired as Houston, while humiliated
    on the scoreboard, was not beatup on the field.  The loss should help
    motivate Houston against Cleveland.

    RE -1
    
    
    Yea just like  the Oilers HAD to win against Cleveland last year....
    
    like the Oilers HAD to win in those games in the late 70's against
    Pittsburgh....
    
    history proves when Houstom HAS to win they CHOKE.  If Houston was
    not
    motivated against Cinci yesterday then there is something wrong
    with that team

    Actually, I had little problems with Cincy passing and scoring.
    The way the NFL playoff tiebreakers are set up, it was in their
    best interests to score when they had the chance. 
    
    Onside kicks when your up by 45 points ? Yeah, reeeel good taste
    Sam. 
    
    It's a shame, because Wyche was a coach I could respect, however
    Mac was right a couple of notes ago. Cleveland would have been a
    lot better off if Cincy had lost, or at least beat Houston and shut
    up.
    
    All of the sudden, I read how Houston rubbed Cincy's nose in it
    last year, and how Wyche couldn't stand Glanville. 
    
    Where was all of this a year ago ? Sounds like a SoB (Sam on Bandwagon)
    to me .....
    
    Cincy is better off not making the playoffs - eventually they'll
    come across Houston in the HoP...and they had better have the bodybags
    ready for the Bungles ....
    
    DrM
    
    p.s. I noticed that .18 by Paul The Small is still being written.
    
    How much you guys want to bet that he has nothing of value to say about
    anything ?

    
    It doesn't matter!
    
    Houston
    
    Cleveland
    
    Either team would fold at Mile-Hi anyway, so enjoy worrying about it
    while you can, because it will all be over by mid-January.
    
    You gotta love Wyche blowing out 'Gland'ville.
    
    Glandville needs to reevaluate how he deals with these young players of
    his.  He has one of the most talented group of guys to work with in the
    league, yet he continues to blow the big games.  This 'we bad'
    mentality doesn't work with over-enthused players.  They get so
    excited, they forget their talents in the locker room.  If he doesn't
    turn it around, he'll be yelling out orders at a Mcdonalds next year.
    
    
    Russ

    
    re: .16
    
    Houston lost on the scoreboard 61-7 but not on the field?  Wake up
    pal.  A 61-7 loss is humiliation... is a beating...! AS IN NO WAY
    THEY WERE EVER IN THE BALL GAME.  AS IN HA HA HA... a taste of
    Houston's own medicine a la Houston Cougars style.
    
    DrM, enjoy the standings while you can, because with Mack back,
    Cleveland will roll over Houston.
    
    For those who believe the 61-7 loss will only fire up the team,
    what a joke!  The team must be seriously questioning their abilities
    now... 61-7 this week and 34-0 a couple of weeks ago...
    
    p.s. DOC claim to fame... "chokes in Nashua Touch Football, but not
         when he's with the boys!"

    
    	hahaa.. .18 has mysteriously disappeared.  guess you were right.
    
    	The Onside kick at 45-0 is truly the most tasteless play of
    the season  (i did not see it).  My respect for Wyche in the past
    2 games has gone from uninterested to hatred.  What's his problem
    anyways?  not getting enough *** lately?

    I thoroughly enjoyed that on-sides kick with a 45-0 lead.
    
    I hope the Browns score 70 points on the Glanvilles.
    
    JoJ

    Boy Prime Time Paul (whose Clutch pitching would make Marylin Chambers
    green with envy), you are really reaching now.
    
    61-7, the Oilers must be devastated ... HHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA !!!!!!!!
    
    I'm certain now that you're sweating out this Saturday !
    
    Oh yeah, the Browns have their savior Kevin "Big Nose" Mack back
    in the lineup. The second comin of a back who either :
    
    1) Caint keep his weight down.
    2) Get's busted for drugs.
    3) Caint run N-S.
    4) Is a walking muscle pull.
    
    I'm really trembling. .... Just like I tremble when you walk out
    on a football field.
    
    Rotator cuff my a$$ .... you geek ... why don't you bring your sorry
    carcass on out to the field soemtimes, instead of moaning about
    me ? Let's settle this like a couple of men (assuming of course
    that you are a man) .....
    
    Prediction :
    
    Oilers 34
    Clowns 17
    
    DrM
    
    p.s. Keith, being in PATSland (tm), we didn't see the game. What
    in the hell happened ?
    
    p.p.s. I understand that Dishman was back in form again ... is there
    any chance that he'll be traded ?

    
    I don't want to get into the petty bickering, but I don't see how
    the loss could help Houston at all.  I don't believe a humiliating
    loss like that is going to help a team get up for a game that is
    going to decide the AFC Central champion.  If they can't get up
    for a Championship game, whatever happened the previous week doesn't
    mean squat.
    
    Bruce
    

�    re: .16
�    
�    Houston lost on the scoreboard 61-7 but not on the field?  Wake up
�    pal.  A 61-7 loss is humiliation... is a beating...! 
    
    Paul, read that note again.  I said that Houston was humiliated, but
    they were not beatUP.  As in no major injuries.  Wyche said that he not
    only wanted to beat Houston, he wanted to put the hurt on them.  He
    beat them, but the Oilers are still healthy and looking forward to
    Cleveland.
    
    And Mr. Schramm, I was not talking ancient history.  I made those
    comments based on the way the Oilers have played this season.  They
    could have run away with the AFC Central, but kept losing the games
    they shouldn't have.  They also could have been the doormats of the AFC
    Central, but were able to win the games they had to to stay in the
    hunt.  As Dr.M said, check the standings.  The Oilers are still in
    first and in control of their own destiny.

    Why would the Oilers not get up for the game against Cincy???
    
    If the SOilers would have beaten the Bengals, this week's game would
    have meant nothing, zero, zip!
    
    They HAD to have been pumped for the game, and look what happened.  The
    same thing will happen to the SOilers this week, except Carson might go
    easy on you.
    
    CHOKE OF THE YEAR:  Houscum SOilers!
    
    AFC CENTRAL CHAMPS:  Cleveland Browns!
    
    BERNIE BERNIE, WHOOOA
    SUPER BOWL, YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH
    
    jab

Here are some of Sam's comments after the game:
   "It's like playing against the bully in your high school, you finally
reach up and slug him in the teeth and he runs away."
   "We don't like this team. We don't like their people. When you get a 
chance to do it (run up the score), you do it. I wish today was a five-quarter
game. Our only real regret is that Lee Johnson missed that extra point (after
a 4th quarter TD). I must say it can't happen to a nicer team."
   "We were going right for their jugular. We just destroyed a good football
team, a team that if they didn't make so many dump mistakes really would
win a lot more games. I mean, really, you can only be so stupid, but they
have exceeded the limits here somehow."
   He also called Jerry Glanville "the biggest phony in professinal football."
                                                   Denny

    re:
    
    Boy, Wyche is going to get it next year.  I suggest that he should stay
    home when his team plays in Houston and Cleveland.  Can't wait to hear
    what he says about the Vikings this week.  8-)
    
    I am also surprised Wyche didn't complain about the officials.  Isn't
    this the first time all year he hasn't complained about the refs? 
    Amazing.
    
    jab

    
    	wow, can i change my vote from dan quayle to sam wyche for bimbo
    of the 80's?
    	he's just asking for it.  i *can't* wait until the minnesota
    game.
    	my only regret is that sam didn't start making those comments
    last year when s.f. handily put cinci's ego in it's right place.
    
    sean_who_was_previously_indifferent_to_sam

    Doc, be glad you got to see the Pats.  The game wasn't pretty and it
    went on forever (almost 3� hours).  Moon fumbled the snap on the
    opening drive of the game, Cincy recovered, and it was downhill from
    there.  Boomer was hot, Moon was not.  Five turnovers by the Oilers
    didn't help either.  Rozier was benched for the remainder of the game
    after he coughed one up on the 1 foot line trying for a TD.  Moon was
    under pressure the whole time he was in there (he was pulled in the 3rd
    quarter when the game was obviously out of reach).  I guess the Oilers
    missed Childress because Boomer had all day to throw.  Even Zendejas
    had a bad day, missing a gimme-field goal on his only attempt.
    
    No word on Dishman in the papers.  They didn't single anyone out, just
    pointed out that Houston never likes to do things the easy way as
    evidenced by losing to KC and then Cincy when they could have locked up
    the AFC central.

S.F. scores with less than 2 minutes in the game and they Handily put
Cinci in their place ? Which Super Bowl did you watch ?

I used to like Houston. They had a lot of talent and played tough. They have
excellent skill players. Unfortunately they decided to try and be the Pistons
of Football. I don't know who decided that they were going to call the Dome 
the House of Pain but it was a stupid idea. When you put yourself on a pedestal
the way the oilers did with the House of Pain crap you are asking to get
knocked off of it onto your butt.

When you throw In gerry Glanville whyning (more than Wyche) and trying to be
the big force in black you've come up with a team that had better put up or 
shut up.

MIx in a few idiots like Chris Dishman (who's influence cancels out the players
like Moon, Givens and Hill) and you've got a team that other teams love to hate.

Granted they are atop their division in the AFC but nobody is mistaking them 
for a Super Bowl team. IMHO they should can Glanville and get a coach that will
use all the talent that team is laden with. Wade Phillips would be a good choice.

Get rid of the Crap,get rid of Glanville and they would stand a much better
chance of becoming a dominant team. Keep up with the crap and I'll cheer comments
like the ones Wyche made every time I see them in the paper.


Metz the Ex-oiler fan...

    
    	I doubt if the actual players or members of the houston
    organization came up with the name house of pain.  the media has
    it's ways of creating false images of teams.  i must have missed
    the comments by houston throughout this season that made them come
    off as being so high and mighty.  i must be wrong in viewing this
    thing as being purely one sided (cincinatti organization attacking
    houston organization).  if houston did deserve it, could someone
    please explain why?  (not a real big fan of either team..) thanks,
    
    sean
    	

	The only thing I can figure is that someone extracted a bunch of stuff
from the SPORTS Notesfile and sent it to Sam to study up on how you are
supposed to talk to and about an opponent. Evidently, he's a quick study.

Mike JN

    How did the Oilers do yesterday?
    
    Mike

    
    re: .35
    
    Wrong, Sam can't read!
    

    FWIW, the House Of Pain is nothing more than a PR gimmick, and I
    can't see that as such a big deal. The Raiders had a nastier image
    for much longer ....
    
    The problem comes when you have, as one noter pointed out, idiots
    like Dishman (who even many teammates have condemmed) who go out
    of their way to antagonize people. That's not intimidation.
    
    Intimidation is knocking the jock of your opponent (like I do to
    Gronowski) every single play - LEGALLY. Not jumping on a man when
    the play is over spouting off at the mouth.
    
    In addition, this rep of the Oilers is a bandwagon effect, IMO.
    It is popular to bash all the Oilers, and let the stupidity of a
    few tar the many. Look at the Eagles for instance. Andre Waters
    is one of the dirtiest players in the NFL, and there have been a
    few incidents with other players. Buddy Ryan isn't on the Xmas list
    of several of his peers. But does anybody go around claiming that
    the Eagles as a team are dirty ? No. 
    
    The VAST majority of the Oilers are not dirty. But Noll and Wyche know
    that they can deflect a lot of heat on themselves by pumping up
    the Oiler 'image'. Noll did it a couple of years ago (in fact he's
    the man most responsible for the issue) when the Pittsburgh media
    was all over him. Wyche probably isn't exactly living the life of
    Riley right now either. So why not throw a little oil into the waters
    and keep things stirred up ? Oiler-bashing for perceived 'dirtiness'
    is pretty popular.
    
    Finally, we have Jerry Glanville. He's funny, a cutup, and pretty
    inspirational. He designs big-play defenses that fans can love.
    He encourages defenders to get the most out of their fumbles and
    pickoffs by constantly lateraling (which the local media tried to
    deride until the TD's started coming), making the game more fun.
    
    Kinda like a certain Philly coach eh ?
    
    However Glanville is also stubborn, volitile, and does not always
    recognize is limitations. Witness his attempts to be an offensive
    coordinator his first year in Houston (he nearly got Moon killed
    in 86), and some of his playoff calls. Glanville is a fighter by
    nature, and has rabbit ears, which has resulted in media battles
    with many of Houston's journalists. 
    
    Most of all Glanville is a man who is trying to escape (believe
    it or not) the shadow of Bum Phillips, who is still seen as a folk
    hero by many. Hence the determined attempt to forge his own image,
    and the flack that has resulted.
    
    It's a shame too - these Oilers are man for man a superior team
    to the 1978-81 Oilers. And if Glanville would relax, he could prove
    himself a superior coach to Bum.
    
    But he won't. Most noters (with a few exceptions, but we mon't mention
    any silly Clowns fans whose initials are PG will we ? :-) know that
    I've been critical of Glanville for awhile. But I'll give credit
    where it's due. He has shown the ability to grow (albiet slowly),
    and like his team he matures from the defeats. The Oilers bounced
    back from the KC game, they'll bounce back from Cincy.
        
    What worries me is that defense is Glanville's speciality, and only
    the Falcons and Jets have given up more points than Houston. This
    is a man who put together the "Grits Blitz" defense in Atlanta that
    set a 14-game NFL record one year. Did Plan B hurt the Oilers that
    badly ? Or perhaps Jerry has set up too many distractions ?
    
    From things I've seen recently (as far as I can tell here in NE)
    over the last 6-8 weeks, the Oilers are toning down the offenders
    act, and making an effort to dispose of this dirty image.
             
    Well, that's a few thoughts for now, and here is one last one :
    
    Pity the Browns on Saturday - Oilers are going to roll.
    
    The Doctor

    Doc,
    
    Good note.  The parrallels between the Oilers and Eagles are pretty
    good.  Buddy Ryan is rude, crude, and it rubs off on the team. 
    Notice the Eagles (and Randall, esp.) silly bickering with the media.
    
    And all it takes is one player to step over the line and get a 'dirty'
    player rep, and viola, the whole team is condemned.  Notice how
    Dishman is the only Oiler ever mentioned.  And tell me the rep isn't
    noticed by the Refs, who I'm sure call games close on the Oilers
    then on say, the 49ers.  It's like the old Raiders, they had a rep
    for dirty play, but after George Atkinson, yo didn't have dirty
    players, but aggresive hitters and of course, cast offs - renegades,
    which the NFL establishment couldn't stomach.
    
    The House of Pain - it's a gimmick, and the Dome sells out, so it's
    a good one, just like the Dawg pound, and all the other gimmicks
    or nicknames, like the New York Sack Exchange, the Orange Crush,
    the Steel Curtain......
    
    Jerry Glanville - he's playing up to image he created.  And it comes
    back to haunt him.  The funny thing is who deemed that Sam Wyche
    would be the conscience of the NFL the last two weeks?  I've always
    thought Same was a ****bag.
    
    JD

    
    Doc,
    The one thing that kills me is Chuck Noll being the biggest complainer
    about dirty play. His Steelers teams of the '70s have to be the
    dirtiest teams in recent times. He even had the filberts to file
    assault charges against a couple of RAIDERS, Tatum and Atkinson if my
    memory is correct. Needless to say that was laughed out of court. 
    I won't even mention that slimeball that tried to break Kenny
    Anderson's neck on a Monday night game a couple of years ago. Noll is
    the biggest hypocrite in the NFL.
    
                                                    HOOT
    

    HOOT, we finally are in full and total agreement.
    
    The Tatum deal happened back in 1977 (?) when an Atkinson hit away
    from the ball KOed Swann (BTW, Tatum recounts this in his book,
    and I'll tell you, that part about Swann was funny !), and Noll
    goes to the media and says that there were "criminal elements" in
    pro football. He named Atkinson and Tatum (who got a bogus fine
    for hitting girly-mon Franco Harris, the league admitted as much)
    on the lawsuit.
    
    So off to court Noll goes, and it turns out that under oath, that
    Noll has to name *SOME OF HIS OWN PLAYERS* as being part of that
    so-called "criminal element".
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA !!!!!!
    
    Mind you, I admired several of the Steelers, but I also remember
    Joe Greene punching a Bronco in the filberts. Mike Wagner taking
    out Mike Barber of the Oilers with a shot to the knees in the 80
    AFC Title game, and Lambert and Blount doing a little head-hunting
    too.
    
    Yep Hoot, Noll is a crybaby, and a hyporcrite. I enjoy it every
    time Glanville lays it on him.
                   
    But you have to admit, that was one hell of a rivialy, we ought
    to thank Noll for helping it out.
    
    DrM

    
    Dishman has been singled out several times about being "dirty" and
    probably a lot of that has to do with the obvious, cheap-shot dead
    ball foul that occured on a Monday Night (I believe against the
    Bengals in the House of Pain).  Maybe he has had other incidents
    during the season.  The point I wanted to make, was that ESPN had
    a real nice piece on him during it's PrimeTime program prior to
    Sunday's games.  It was really a nice segment and showed another
    side to Dishman's life.  Apparently he spends a lot of his free
    time during off days with children in a hospital about an hour from
    Houston as well as spending time with inner-city kids.  He stated
    that he didn't do this type of work for the publicity, but solely
    for his own self-satisfaction and also to give something back to
    the city.  I don't know all of his incidents on the field, but the
    type of activities that he does for the kids off of the field are 
    never lauded enough.
    
    I agree with DrM concerning the outcome of this weekend's game.
    Glanville will have his troops prepared and will definitely come
    out on fire this weekend.  I see them putting up at least 30 points
    on the scoreboard and shutting down the Brown's offensive attack.
    I believe the Browns shortcoming will be their inability to generate
    any type of ground game, which will allow the defense to really
    tee-up on Kosar in obvious passing situations.  Look for 4-5 sacks
    and a couple of interceptions.  All in all, it should be a great game 
    to watch on Saturday night, with a lot at stake!  The winner should
    get to the AFC Championship game in Mile High.
    
    Harold
                                                  

    Rumor has it that Childress will play this weekend.

    Re:.43
    Dishman was a real nice kid when he was at Purdue (around my time
    there).  Somehow he got caught on with this Glanville mentality and his
    mouth simply gets bigger and bigger day by day.  Like Glanville he may
    be a class guy off the field, but on the field, neither of them are.
           
    Charles

    re .40
    
    The Steelers of the 70's were not as dirty as much as intimidating.
    One thing they were that the Oilers are definetly not is....they
    were WINNERS                              
    
    p.s. I thought Lynn Swann was the one filing the charges
    
    p.s.  I beleive that shot on Ken Anderson on Monday night football
    came because the meeting before with Cinci-Pitt one of the Cinci
    players tried to drive Bradshaw's head into the ground. I guess
    you forgot to mention that.
                                                              

    re .40 & .41
    
    Sounds like some sour grapes to me.  When another team is as aggressive
    and intimidating as the Steelers of the 70's were, AND, when they
    regularly beat the sh*t out of your team, the "dirty team" label
    seems to get applied.
    
    
    JaKe
    
    P.S.  I thought that Tatum and Atkinson tried to sue Noll for the
    "criminal element" label he applied to them!!
    
    

    re.46
    
>    The Steelers of the 70's were not as dirty as much as intimidating.
>    One thing they were that the Oilers are definetly not is....they
>    were WINNERS                              
 
    Suuuurre they were squeaky-clean .... what has Pissburgh done in
    the last 5 years ?
    
>    p.s.  I beleive that shot on Ken Anderson on Monday night football
>    came because the meeting before with Cinci-Pitt one of the Cinci
>    players tried to drive Bradshaw's head into the ground. I guess
>    you forgot to mention that.
 
    No. The reason why it wasn't mention is because your were wrong,
    by at least 5 or 10 years.
    
    The incident with Bradshaw occured against *Cleveland*, and the
    offender was Turkey Joe Jones.
    
    Anderson was cheapshotted by Keith Gary.
    
    Please get the facts straight .....
    
    DrM

    re .47    
    
>        Sounds like some sour grapes to me.  When another team is as aggressive
>    and intimidating as the Steelers of the 70's were, AND, when they
>    regularly beat the sh*t out of your team, the "dirty team" label
>    seems to get applied.
 
    Hey JoKe (note the spelling), that could be a form letter :   
                
    Sounds like some sour grapes to me JoKe.  When another team is as
    aggressive and intimidating as the Oilers of the 80's and 90's are, 
    AND when they regularly beat the sh*t out of the Steelers <or insert
    your team>, the "dirty team" label seems to get applied.
                
>    P.S.  I thought that Tatum and Atkinson tried to sue Noll for the
>    "criminal element" label he applied to them!!
 
    Don't think so much ... it's bad for you ..... :-)
    
    re Dishman,
    
    I saw the ESPN special too. I never knew that side of Dishman. Like
    people said, he does not go out of his way to invite publicity for
    his community service off the field.
    
    Why he chooses to be a jerk on the field, I don't know. As for some
    of his more infamous incidents :
    
    1) In the opener against the Vikes, he taunted Carl Hilton while
    Hilton was on the ground in pain.
    
    2) Aganist the Chargers, he committed a stupid, unprovoked dead-ball
    foul after the Oilers had stopped the Chargers on 3rd and 25. 1st
    and 10 S.D. as a result.
    
    Next play, MacMahon to Miller, 74 yards and a TD.
    
    3) Incidents in the per-season, and in the Buffalo game.
    
    4) Incidents in both Cincy games.
    
    To me, Dishman is trying to bulid a rep as an intimidator. Instead
    he's making a fool of himself, and a target for refs.
    
    He also provides WR's with a lot of incentive to work on their
    downfield blocking ....
    
                           
    Dr Midnight - 1990 NoTY and Guardian of The Truth

    re .48
    
    
    sure the Steelers have done anything in the last 5 years BUT what hve
    the Oilers done in their HISTORY (including this year?)
    
    when you finally win something talk to me then

    
    Amazing, wouldn't you say, Doc? I guess if the Steelers fans can't
    remember the facts they just make up stories.
    
    You have my curiosity up, what's Kwanza?
    
                                                HOOT
    

    If Cleveland is smart they will expect a very fired up Oiler Defense.
    and design some short passes to the flats, Shovel passes to eliminate
    the outside rush. Houston will over play on every down early in the
    game. 
    
    Defensively Cleveland has to put pressure on Moon. It looks like
    Glanville can't find a running game. All that talent is wasting in the
    HoP. 
    
    Jeff

    
    It is interesting that the people knocking the '70's Steeler teams
    are fans of the Raiders and Oilers, the two teams that the Steelers
    regularly knocked off on their way to the Super Bowl.
    
    Local radio had one of the Oiler announcers on his show last night.
    He asked the guy about the Oiler's reputation as dirty players.
    The announcer said that Glanville does try to get his team to play
    'in the gray area between clean and dirty.'  He went on to say that
    there is a reason for it.  The Oilers defense is not very good.
     He pointed to the fact that the Oilers are second to last in the
    NFL in yards given up by the defense.  They are behind the Jets
    and Cowboys!  He believes that the Oilers use intimidating tactics
    to try to make the other teams believe they are tough.  This is
    where all the House of Pain brahma feces comes from.  Coming from
    someone who watches the Oilers closely, it made sense.
    
    Bruce 
    

    
    Oilers lead the league in penalties this year... I think the
    Raiders are second... Atleast the Oilers are winning something,
    along with the Raiders, they've dominated this catagory for
    years.
    
    Doc, if the Oilers are so awesome, how come they lost to the
    Browns?
    
    Browns 1  Oilers 0.  Repeat of 1988, Browns cost Oilers AFC 
                         Central.
    

    Hopefully, the Oilers will come out fired up and over-play every play
    again.  And, they will get burned with flea-flickers, halfback passes,
    etc.  I expect to see a very timid defense from the Oilers.
    
    CLEVELAND BROWNS  1989 AFC CENTRAL DIVISION CHAMPS
    
    jab

    Hoot, Kwanza is a holiday celebration that traces it's origins in
    Africa. It lasts for 7 days (something like Hanukkah) starting on
    December 26. Each day is dedicated to a different principle Faith,
    Community Involvement, Purpose, Investing in the Community, ect.
    
    For more info, I'll refer you to OPHION::BLACKNOTES.
    
    DrM

    
    Thanks Doc. Going by the spelling, I thought it was an African holiday
    but had never heard of it.

    It's been gaining in attention over the last decade ... you'll probably
    hear more in the future.
    
    The Doc - With-his-Valuing-Differences-Public-Service-Hat-On :-)

Not wanting to start a radical tangent (when was the last time *I*
said that!) and totally removing myself from any religious intent,
isn't it amazing that so many cultures' holidays fall around this
time...

Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanza, Tet...  I wonder if somewhere down
the line there is a common denominator....

Just cogitatin',
Chainsaw

    Yeah it is a rathole but I doubt if you would find a common denominator
    by removing the religious aspects.
    
    Mike

Alien influence?  ;^)

I guess I was just wondering...  You know, like sometime I wonder
why I'm here, or why coca-cola takes rust off nail....

8^)

    Coca-cola is great for cleaning oil off your driveway too!

�or why coca-cola takes rust off nail....
    
    Must be something to do with the phosphoric acid contained in Coke(TM).
    
    The timing of the holidays mentioned has been linked to the seasons. 
    Around this time of year the amount of daylight has decreased (reaching
    a minimum at about Dec. 21 - the winter solstice).  Many celebrations
    were in place to either ward off the continuing decrease in the
    daylight hours or to celebrate the increase in daylight.  It has been
    proposed that the Christmas holiday was chosen to coincide with pagan
    holidays which were already celebrated at the winter solstice.

    
    According to religio-socio-historical sources, the coincidence of
    events at this time of year, from ancient history to the present,
    is a foreshadowing of the Super Bowl.
    
    HTH
    
    -Dick

� Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanza, Tet...  I wonder if somewhere down
� the line there is a common denominator....

	I think Winter Solstice would be the common demoninator. At or around
this time of year, even cultures with poor astronomical calculating abilities
could tell that the shortest day had arrived, and they were headed for Spring.

Re: Winter Solstice Festivities:::

                          GOTTA LOVE THEM PAGANS!!!

MIKE JN

    Heard on the radio this A.M. that Moon will be the starter in the
    Pro-Bowl this year. Okoye, Brooks (not DrM:-)), Andre Reed are also
    starters for the AFC. Montana, Barry Sanders, Neal Anderson in the
    NFC are the only names I've heard so far.
    			Raider_Rich
    

    The full Pro-Bowl rosters are in the NFL topic. 
    
    Houston's two offensive guards will be guarding Moon in the pro-Bowl. 
    Houston's punter, despite being the best in the AFC and second best in
    the NFL will not be going.  He lost out to Reggie Roby of the Dolphins. 
    Houston didn't not place any defensive players on the AFC squad,
    despite a monster year for one of their cornerbacks and another good
    performance from Childress.

    Givens should go based solely on the TD flip he did against Buffalo.
    Ouch, that hurts :-)
    				Raider_Rich
    

    So much for DrM's fearless prediction.  The Oilers lost despite the
    absence of Eric Metcalf for much of the game and a defense that put
    constant pressure on Kosar.  The almost constant blitzing by both teams
    gave somewhat of an advantage to Moon, a much more mobile quarterback,
    but he failed to effectively exploit his chances.
    
    The Browns defense held when it needed to, and the Oilers offensive
    line seemed intent on undermining Moon, the receivers and running backs
    by committing a number of rally-killing holding fouls.
    
    The House of Shame (House of Sham?) did little to get the Oilers fired
    up (as if a 61-7 pasting at the hands of the Bengals shouldn't have
    gotten them fired up...)  It all boiled down to who wanted it more.
    The Browns answered that one in a pretty decisive fashion.
    
    -- FooBear

    supvax::kermit:==ptomv6::jacob
    My system is down this week so I'll be in thru here.
    
    
    Houscum Oilslicks to fall  to the Steelers Sunday in the house of
    the Brainless.
    
    
    JaKe
    

       How bout them 'AFC Central Champeen' Houston Soilers!!
At least they kept the 'proud' tradition of Houston sports alive!
                                    Denny

    
    	Here's the teams Houston has beaten this season:
    
    	San Diego, Miami, Chicago, Pitt(2), Detroit, Tampa, Raiders,
    	Cincinatti
    
    	Here's Houston's losses:
    
    	Minnesota, Buffalo, New England, Cleveland (2), Cincinatti,
    	Kansas City
    
    
    	Don't expect much from this team (wildcard win tops).  imo.
    
    
    sean

    
    
    
    I LOVE IT DR M..... CHOKE CITY in Houston again.....The tradition
    remains for Houston
    
    p.s. even if Houston beats Pittsburgh (I doubt it) who cares? I
    never expected Pittsburgh to be in the playoffs so just getting
    there is accompilshment enough
                                  

    
    Dock,
    
    My good friend IceMan asked me to pass this along....
    
    
     the dawgs pounded the erlers into submission....
    
     erlers choke again!!!
    
     nothing new....
    
    outta here!!!!
    
    Cleveland Browns 1989 AFC Central Champs AGAIN!!!!!!!!!
    
    

    where's dock?  vacation?  i wonder if houston won the other night
    would he have found time to write a note....just wondering....

    Went back to Houston to get out of the cold.  What was it Sunday down
    there?  9 degrees or something like that?

    Walt, we had a record low of 4 deg.F here in Austin on Sunday. 
    Christmas Day it was back up in the 70s.  Because of the record low
    temperatures throughout the state they saying there was about $200
    million in water damage due to pipes freezing and then bursting and at
    least $3 million in crop damage.

    BROWNIE SWEEP! BROWNIE SWEEP!
    
    Poor Doc, first his team gets drilled and he flies south so he can
    freeze his butt off.
    
    It was 73� in Phoenix all Christmas weekend.  I love watching you guys
    freeze on the national weather reports!
    
    Mike

    
    
    Good morning Dr M.....did you enjoy that game this past Sunday?.....
    
    history does prove itself right again as the Oilers CHOKE in style...
    
    After Houston went ahead with a few minutes left in the game it was a
    great sight to see Pittsburgh RUN the ball down their throats for the 
    score....
    
    to rub more salt in your wounds here is some earlier notes that you
    composed about the Oilers....
    
Note 37.0
    The Oilers are the AFC's only hope in 1989 for a Super Bowl victory,
    due to their talent edge and explosive offense. They should match
    up very well with the Niners, Eagles, or Vikes.
    
    Dr Midnight
    
    
Note 37.10
    
    note: please read that line about Pittsburgh being out of the playoffs
    
    Houston 9 6 0
    
    
    Clevscum 8 6 1
                                                                
    Out of the playoffs ...
    
    Cincy 8 7 0 (Oh yes, but they did blow out Houston ....) :-)
    
    Pitt.
    
    
    You know "Prime Time Paul" (your choke jobs, are the stuff of legend),
    you demonstrate the utter stupidity of a Clowns fan.
    
    Sam Wyche pulled a stupid move in running up the score. That was
    the worse thing that could have ever happened to the Browns. 
    
    Now your coming to the House Of Pain on Saturday, to face a fired
    up Oiler team, 60,000 pumped-up fans (hopefully, I'll be one of
    them), with that pathetic football team.
    
    Yup, keep on drooling GROAN-owski .... and enjoy Xmas at home in
    the City Of Pain (Clevescum) !!!!!
    
    HAHHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!
    
    Yup, 61-7 was one hell of a beating, but it adds up the same as
    21-20 - 1 loss in the standings. Houston still clinches the division
    with a win or tie on Saturday. 
    
    And home field in at least the first round game too ....
    
    Keep laughing Pauline - I can look at the standings for consolation.
    
    What can you do ?
       
    heh heh heh
    
    DrM        
    
    
    p.s. funny how those "heh heh heh" come back to haunt you? Even if
    Pittsburgh gets blown out against Denver ... the plesure feeling is
    still there that Pittsburgh knocked Houston out in the House of
    painless
    
    have a nice day
 

    
    Houston Oilers...
    Houston Oilers...
    Houston Oilers really bite the big one!
    Houston Oilers..
    Houston Oilers...
    Houston Oilers jerry glanville sure is scum!!
    
    HA HA HA!!! Couldn't have happened to a better guy!!
    
    
    Steve

    *****           N E W S F L A S H             ************
    
    Steelers clean up Oilslick, stash it in House of the Braindead.
    
    
    Dr. Midwife contemplating Suicide after Oilslicks pretend they are
    Brown(spot)s and choke on the big one.
    
    Hey Midwife, what's your address???????  I'm thinking of hiring some
    violinists to play "My Heart Bleeds for You"!!!!!!!
    
    How was YOUR new years "celebration".  Drowning your SORROWS???
    
    Mine was surely enjoyable..
    
    JaKe
    

       The 'tradition' continues!
                                       Deny

    wait 'til nexted year!

    Have the Oilers ever won a playoff game against Pittsburgh. 0-3
    according to my calculations. Glanville should be fired for that
    stupid playcalling at the end of regulation. 
    
    He shouldn't be blamed for White's fumble. 
   

    
    Seem the end of your season in Ulitmate Handicapper parallels the
    Oilers end of the season, hey Dock?  ;^)
    
    mike
    

    
    	Shame, shame, shame!
    
    	How discusting!
    
    	How humiliating!
    
    	lose to Pittsburg???  What a slap in the face!
    
    	Why bother even showing up???
    
    	ARF! ARF! ARF!
    

    RE -1
    
    HMM.....i remeber Cleveland losing to Pittsburgh a few weeks ago...
    
    YAP YAP YAP!!!!!!!

    
    
    
    Hm.... I wonder if Houston won... would these notes be filled with
    Dr M words of wisdom?...... funny when they lose we dont here from
    him

    
    Dr M must be hiding.  Do't cry too loud Doc.  The Oilers didn't choke!
    Unlike you in the Nashua Touch Football league, the Oilers were beaten
    by better teams.
    
    Did anyone expect the Oilers to beat the Bengals?  I didn't.
    
    Did anyone expect the Oilers to beat the Browns?  I didn't.  Why?
        Cleveland has now won 4 of their last 5 games in Houston.  So
        much for the house of pain.  Moon is 2-10 lifetime v.s. the 
        Browns... as in HE CAN'T BEAT THEM.  AS IN SEE YA.  He has
        an impressive 11 TDs and 20 INTs in those 12 games.  FELIX
        WRIGHT carries his birth certificate in his back pocket.
    
    Did anyone expect the Oilers to beat the Steelers?  I didn't.
    
    
    So, the Oilers didn't choke.  They were beaten by better teams.
    My predicition...  DrM will hide until next week and then get
    back into dumping on all the other remaining teams.  His Oilers
    and Eagles (he likes them because he drove within 300 miles of
    Philadelphia once) are both gone... he'll probably jump on the
    Bills or Donks and 9ers bandwagon (claiming now that he's from
    the bay area).  Your a real clASS act doc...  get lost and save
    face.  Leave the company!
    

    Rumors are flying about Jerry Glanville's fate.  Christmas Eve Jerry's
    son came to see him and ask him why he was being fired.  Apparently a
    pre-game show said that Jerry was history.  A report later in the week
    said that Glanville would be fired if he didn't take the Oilers to the
    Super Bowl.  Jerry called the reporter and asked where he got that
    information.  He was told that it was from someone in Oiler management
    but wouldn't name names.  Glanville said the reporter must have better
    sources than he did because the subject of Glanville being fired has
    not come up.  
    
    Rumors have really heated up lately since Schilling, former Texas A&M
    coach has been seen at the last three games in the Astrodome.  Other
    rumors have named the University of Houston coach as a possible
    replacement for Glanville.
    
    re .93:  FWIW, in Houston's 24-20 loss to Cleveland to end the regular
    season, Moon had one of the best games of his career.

       The 'reporter' that Gland-ville was pissed at is Bobby Beathard
    of NBC's 'insiders'. He's about as accurate as the Dock himself!
                                         Denny

    
    re: .94
    
    FWIW, Moon lost to the Browns again.  Bottom line.  The Oilers offense
    didn't even show up until the 2nd half...  great game Warren,
    Browns fans are disappointed they won't have another shot at you
    guys again this year (READ, guarenteed trip to Super Bowl for the
    Browns if they had a chance to play the Oilers in the AFC title 
    game!)
    

    Doc decided to take the day off...
    
    -Walt

    
    Doc has taken his whole life off... when is he going to show up
    and face life?

    Soilers Suck

    
    Doc still a no show - can't face REALITY!
    
    Dawgs dump OILERS, Steelers eliminate unlikely spOILERS!

    Since nobody seems to know where the Doc is, why don't you continue the
    harrassment in MAIL, Paul where everyone else doesn't have to read it.

    
    MAIL, what's that... Doc is in today, still not facing reality though.
    
    Oilers bow to dawgs in house of pain... 

    Hello people ( excluding MOAN-nowski and Spam (Schramm)),
    
    Yup Houston was COLD. 1st night back, it was 11 degrees. Second
    night, it was SEVEN. Yes 7 degress above F. (So they said.) To top
    it off, my plane stopped in Clevescum, and many passangers (including
    me), didn't get their luggage until the next day.
    
    Any y'all wonder why I hate Cleveland.
                             
    Now to the real stuff :
    
    Houston vs Clowns :
    
    It was nice reading the papers in Houston for a change. Glanville
    has been getting broiled by the press all year, and the players,
    including Moon and Steve Brown, have been less than happy with the
    man. Moon has been all over Glanville for his play calling (too
    conservaive. When the Oilers line up in a one-back set, they run
    on 1st down 90% of the time - set your watch by it.)
    
    Moon was quoted as saying that he hoped the Oilers would come out
    agressive on offense.
    
    No such luck. They came out conservative, and the Clowns got a quick
    17-0 lead. Then Glanville gets desparate (or Moon pulled a gun on
    him), and the Oilers go to their Red Gun offense. 
    
    And lo and behold, the Clowns are reduced to rubble. Alleged All-Pro
    and man to man expert FRank Minnefield got burned repeatedly by
    Curtis Duncan (8 catches). Rememebr Duncan is the number FOUR receiver
    of the Oilers. The Browns NEVER stopped the Oilers offense from
    the second quarter onward. 17-0 became 20-17 Oilers, thanks in large
    part to a typical Browns CHOKE by Clay Matthews.
    
    (Notice how Paul The Small never mentioned Matthews all-time Deep
    Throat on The Lateral ? Figures ....)
    
    The Clowns gave up 483 yards, and a career-high 414 from Moon.
    
    Then of course, Glanville begins "coaching".
    
    Cee Ya !
    
    1) With 4 minutes left and the ball, even a dunce like Joe Thesimann
    pointed out that the Oilers would be better served if they stayed
    in the Red Gun, (which the Browns have yet to figure out) and ate
    up the clock.
    
    But nooooooo, what does Glanville do ? He brings back the two-back
    set, which had been ineffective the whole game. The rest was history.
    
    And the defense has had problems the last two years containing 2
    minute offenses. Teams need a FG, they get the TD. Sickening .....
    
    And defense is supposed to be Glanville's area ....
    
    Simply put, the Boys had the AFC Central title, and let it get away
    to an inferior team.
    
    As for the Steelers game, I was at 35,000 feet, and fortunately,
    the pilot wouldn't tell me the final score .... :-)
    
    But I saw wnough of the lowlights to know what had happened. The
    Stelelrs shouldn't have been within 10 points of Houston.
    
    Ugh ....
    
    Oh well, hopefully this is probably for the best.
    
    DrM
    

    
    Bottom line dic, I mean Doc, who won?  WHO CHOKED?  What NFL QB is 2-10
    lifetime v.s. the Browns.
    
    The Browns have won the AFC Central 4 of the past 5 years... the
    Oilers have never won it!  Wake up and smell the coffee... do your
    typical bandwagon jumping now... 
    
    my prediction... doc will predict a big bills win on sunday...
    
    Last 5 games in the house of pain v.s. the Browns has netted one
    victory... what a joke.  CLEVELAND OWNS Houston...!
    

    Thoughts :
    
    First, with (a lack of) regards to waterGIRL, and the front-runner
    Spam, I still hold to what I've said : The Oilers are the AFC's
    best hope for the Super Bowl. They match up well on both sides of
    the ball, especially on offense with the NFC's top teams.
    
    The Donks and Bills, and especially the Clowns will get killed in
    the Super Bowl by the SF/Minn winner, IMO.
    
    If you don't like that, TFB.
    ==================================================
    
    Glanville : You all have heard my opinions on Jerry. After the last
    two weeks, I'm convinced - he has to go.
    
    Not because of his relations with Wyche or Noll (I could care less),
    or his personality - the NFL needs flavor, and Glanville can a be 
    refreshing change.
    
    My reasoning is simple : He is holding this team back from reaching
    it's full potential.
             
    Glanville made his reputation as a defensive coordinator, and a
    damned good one. But since he has become head coach, he has deluded
    himself into thinking he is a offensive genius. It is no accident
    that Warren Moon audiblizes better and more than any QB in the NFL.
    It's because Glanville's calls stink. And after 4 years on the job,
    he should know better. But his ego continues to get in the way.
    
    His reluctance to make mid-game adjustments, and let his offense
    play their style is starting to split the team. 
    
    And the secondary's play has reached incredibly bad levels. Steve
    Brown, despite what you hear, probably did not deserve to go to
    the Pro Bowl. He just looked that way in comparison to Dishman,
    Allen, and Donaldson. Bubba McDowell was excellent.
    
    While the loss of Ray Childress and Byrd were big reasons for the
    defensive collaspe, there is no excuse for the fact that the Oilers
    gave up over 400 points this year.
    
    Which bring me to the most depressing part of this post-mortem :
    The Front Office.
    
    Firing Glanville is only part of the solution. I gur-ran-tee you
    this : If Sherrill is hired as coach, the Oilers will only go backward.
    I hope I'm wrong, but look at Jimmy Johnson this year, look at Lou
    Holtz with the Jets, and you will see Sherrill.  
    
    In the Houston Post, former RB Butch Woolfolk (Gints fans will remember
    him), wrote an excellent column. It really slammed the Oilers
    organization - without even mentioning the team. 
    
    How did he manage that ? Simple. He talked about the Niners front
    office.
    
    And he's right. The more I watch the Oilers, the more I admire the
    Niners, redskins and Raiders.
    
    The Niners will probably never lose 15 players to Plan B. 
    
    The Skins would never had let a key player like Jamie Williams get
    away. The running game has yet to recover from his loss. And the
    49ers are very happy to have him.
    
    The Raiders wouldn't have Drew Hill and Rozier holding out every
    year because the front office is screwing them around.
                 
    The Niners pay their players well. The go the extra mile for the
    players, and the players do it for them.     
    
    The Niners hire good people, and stay the hell out of their way.
    
    The Niners have the foresight to hire Dr. Harry Edwards to help
    minority players off the field.
    
    Would the Oilers ? No.
    
    So while ditching Glanville is a step in the right direction, I
    don't know how much that would help the situation.
    
    Do I sould bitter ? Teed off ? I suppose. But it's easy to watch
    on field stuff from a distance. Being in Houston allows one to see
    the whole picture, and it ain't pretty.
    
    The Oilers still have the talent to win a couple of Super Bowls,
    but it could all go to waste.
    
    First, they need to trade Rozier and/or Pinkett, along with a draft
    pick, and land an impact DL or LB.
    
    Then they need to load up on DB's in the draft.
    
    And I would hit Plan B hard this year, and try to trade back for
    Jamie Williams.
    
    DrM

    re .105
    
    Moon choked huh ?
    
    You never have let a fact stand in the way of your pesudo-noting
    have you waterGIRL ?
    
    The dday, you can discuss football KNOWLEDGEABLY, is the day I may
    say something good about the Browns.
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. You are a female feline, you've never played in a noters football
    game in Maynard, refuses to be on the same field with me ... don't
    even try to talk about choking until you show up !
    
    p.p.s. Change your pants - you're embarrassing.
    
    p**3.s. Dan Schenider - SCHEUDLE ANOTHER FOOTBALL GAME !

    Can we please keep the personal attacks on other noters to a minimum?
    
    Thanks,
    
    MtFM

    
    Nice try Doc, the Browns defeated the Vikings this year... en route to
    the AFC Central Championship.  I think it was the same week that
    Houston showed their true colors... (61-7 loss to Cincinnati)...
    
    When it counts... HOUSTON LOSSES... 3 straight losses... what a 
    powerhouse!  Go spOILERS, that's all they'll ever be.
    
    1989 Football Choke of the year... is it the Oilers or DrM's loss
    in the Nashua Touch Football League... coin toss...  DrM gets the
    prize!

    Mac, I leave well enough alone, but we all see MOANowski's true
    colors.
    
    He simply isn't classy enough or knowledgeable enough to do anything
    but attack incessantly.
    
    What else do expect from a nerd who can't even play football ?
    
    Doc

       Oilers choked BIGTIME!
    'nuff said
                                       Denny

    Glanville's problem is how he attempts to control the entire team both
    offense and defense just like Shottenhiemer in Cleveland last yr. I can
    not see a coach with at most 6 days to prepare for a team prepare 2
    game plans 1 offense and 1 defense. If Adams was a smart owner(which he
    is not) he would hire a OC and force Glanville to work with an OC. 
    
    Jeff

    
    Docs true colors...
    
        #1           3-JAN-1990 12:34:01.94                          
    From:   EARRTH::BROOKS       "The Doc is Back On The Block ...."
    To:     ROCK::GRONOWSKI
    CC:     BROOKS
    Subj:   Look wimp ...
    
    If you don't play football, I don't play you one on one ...
    
    ***********************************************************************
    
    Doc, you already committed to playing one-on-one hoop... this is
    a great excuse to get out of the game.  See you Jan 10th... I'm
    sure you'll be there... be ready...!
    

    Ladies and Gents, I'd thought you'd like to know that Mr Gronowksi
    is threatening to take me to personel for defending myself against
    his stupid attacks, which I didn't take personally.
    
    Since this could have a definite effect on this conference, I thought
    that you guys would like to talk some sense into him.
    
    Until you can act your age, I'll ignore you from now on ....
    
    Doc

>        <<< Note 37.100 by CSC32::GL_JOHNSON "She's Stone Cold Bush!" >>>
>                             -< Congrats Mike H.! >-
    
    Thanks!

    Yawn...

    doc...... did you enjoy eating your words this past weekend? Im
    still smiling reading all those notes you put in ealier.
    
    
    
    

     I second that....   I really enjoyed watching Glanvile (sp?)
    walking off the field in defeat !!!!  What A Country !!!!
    
    
    Big Game

    Glanville was the only AFC coach to take his team to the playoffs for
    the past three years straight.  Admittedly, he lost in the first round
    every time.
    
    Glanville is reportedly interviewing for the Falcons head coaching job. 
    Jerry used to the special teams/DB coach and later the defensive
    coordinator for the Falcons before he took the Oiler head job. 
    Glanville is also rumored to be making inquiries with the Jets and (I
    think) the Cards.  Jerry had a big meeting with Adams yesterday.  The
    only thing that has been reported out of those talks was the Jerry was
    given permission to talk to Atlanta.

    
    Cleveland has been to the playoffs 5 straight years...even when
    they were on their 3rd string QB!!!
    
    ARF!
    

    Re.120
    
    Says something for luck, huh??????
    
    JaKe
    

    re .119:
    
    >   Glanville was the only AFC coach to take his team to the playoffs for
    >	the past three years straight.  Admittedly, he lost in the first round
    >	every time.
    
    My "Sporting News Pro Football Yearbook" lists Glanville as having a
    2-2 playoff record going into this year.  Unless "first round" is being
    defined as conference semifinals, the part about losing in the first
    round every time is incorrect.  Houston won the AFC wildcard game last
    year (24-23 over Cleveland) before losing to Buffalo 17-10 in the AFC
    semifinals; don't know about previous years.
    
    
    py

    I have discoverd that my wife has been switching in decaffenated coffee
    in the morning on me.

    re .122
    
    The Oilers beat Seattle 23-20 (OT) in the '86 wild card game., then
    lost to Denver 27-10 in the next round. Last year the beat the BROWNS
    then lost to the Bills. This year, they bit the dust vs. the Steelers.
    
    Hence Glanville is 2-3. 
    
    Re. Schram
    
    For a good laugh I think SPORTS should catalog your notes by date.
    
    You are the biggest front-runner/wagon-jumper in history. It's a
    fair bet that even Jim Wardle's stomach turns when he reads your
    notes.
    
    Nobody in this file had even heard of you while the Clowns were
    getting slapped around. Not last year, not this year. Heck, I'll
    give Groan-owski and LiteLocks that much credit.
    
    Now in the last month, you are the "Voice Of Cleveland". 
    
    Yawn.
    
    I've (and most noters in here) have no respect for your brand of
    front-running.
    
    However, I expect to be rid of you either this week or the next,
    when the Browns return to their natural level.
    
    Enough said.
    
    =========================
    
    Glanville :
    
    Atlanta really wants the guy, he ought to generate a lot of interest,
    and perhaps the players will respond. But if he goes there thinking
    he can coach an offense, he'll be lucky to last 2 years.
    
    Later for you Jerry.
    
    DrM

    Hey Doc, no one has ever seen Glanville and Walton together....think
    they are one in the same?
    
    They sure coach alike.
    
    JoJ

>LUNER::BROOKS "Everybody needs an ocassional push.." 43 lines   4-JAN-1990 10:06
    
>    Re. Schram
>    You are the biggest front-runner/wagon-jumper in history. It's a
>    fair bet that even Jim Wardle's stomach turns when he reads your
>    notes.
>    Nobody in this file had even heard of you while the Clowns were
>    getting slapped around. Not last year, not this year. Heck, I'll
>    give Groan-owski and LiteLocks that much credit.
>    Now in the last month, you are the "Voice Of Cleveland". 
    
    
    DrM, I'd heard of him before I heard of you!  And anyway, he's
    a Pittsburgh fan...
    
    
    HTH,
    Charlie

    Charlie, that's what I mean ! All of the sudden, he's an instant
    Browns fan, take a look at the notes.
    
    Disgusting.
    
    Re wardle,
    
    You have a point, but you have to admit, it proves why Moon is so
    much better than K-K-Kenny, in that he can audiblize out of Glanville's
    more inane calls, and make it pay off.
    
    And I must correct your p-name. As crazy as he may dress, I haven't
    noticed much polyester in Glanville's wardrobe ...

    
    
    
    
    re dr m
    
    
    Browns fan??? indeed!!! what notes relates to me a browns fan.
    
    could it be your a little pissed about last weeks game and everyone is 
    rubbing it in your face? could be.....
    
    
    look at the pirates, steelers , pens old notes and youll see my name
    there
    
    bandwagon jumper.....boy your digging deep in trying to get back at
    me..
    
    
    re .127  thanks charlie.... lets cheer the pens out of last place

    re again on Doc M
    
    I started dumping notes in the Oiler conference when they beat
    Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh on that 4th time out and that out of bounds
    catch.
    
    that you can look up.  
    
    enuff said

    That's right ... you showed up at the end of the season .... and
    that's a fact. Not last year, not in the first 13 weeks of this
    season.
    
    You bore me ....
    
    re Steven-boy
    
    I dunno Stevie, but it was good enough to get Moon to the Pro-Bowl.
    I guess Mr Ed lets Treadway have a little too much fun. :-)

    Doc, you and I will never agree on Moon .vs. O'Brien, but in all
    honesty, I feel that Glanville has done nothing with alot of talent,
    much the way that Walton took the likes of
    Toon,Walker,McNeil,Shuler,O'brien, and Hector nowhere. The Jets made the
    playoffs 4 times under Walton and went nowhere.....
    
    So, even though I'm poking a little fun your way, that's the trooth(tm)
    regarding my opinion of Glanville.
    
    JoJ
    

    I heard on SportsChannel at lunch that Glanville was talking to the
    Falcons about their head coaching position, FWIW

    re .133
    
    JoJ, as it happens, I agree with you on Glanville. I thought that
    he ahd learned to stay within himself as a coach.
    
    I wuz wrong.
    
    I hope Floyd Peters gets the job in Houston, and that he has the
    good sense to let the offense play ball.
    
    And I hope that Holovak stops impersonating a GM, and begins to
    act like a real one. (Pay your players !)

    
    Mac,
    
    You were correct about your comment that Glainville was the only AFC 
    coach to take his team to the playoffs the last three years..  
    
    Marty's in Kansas City now.. 
    
    Helping of hope...
    
    /Jeff

    re .132
    
    Showed up at the end of the season?...maybe in the Oilers note but my
    name is in alot of notes (san Diego etc....). if your going to make a
    point make sure it is correct. Obviously all the assininie things you
    say are starting to effect your brain and cannot figure out what is and
    what is not a fact.
                         
    

    Thanks, Jeff.  I didn't think I was that bad first thing in the
    morning.  How about an apology, Mr. Whitehair?  And to think it was a
    fellow moderator who was questioning my FACKS (tm).  

     I can't beleive that someone would question anything
    you said Big Mac.  You, Steven and the Metz have to 
    be the most intelligent, informed and classest noters
    in this entire file.  You guys are the greatest,  keep
    up the good work.
    
    Big Game
    
    You Got it, another exciting round of noting with Big Game.
    
    Thats right, I'm Puking again !!!

    
    Doc,
    Who is Floyd Peters? The name sounds familiar.
    
    
    RE: Moon...AFC Pro Bowl
    
    Moon and Boomer were elected to the Pro Bowl. Quite frankly, there
    weren't any QBs in the AFC that had a Pro Bowl type year. Those two
    won by default. They had good years, not great by any means. But most
    of the teams in the conference didn't play the same QB all year. I
    think DeBerg started every game for KC and he was terrible early in the
    year. That is the only team in the west that the same QB started every
    game. Both Pro Bowl QBs are from the Central division. I think Brister
    and Kosar both started every game. Kosar had a stretch of 4 games or so
    where he played poorly. Brister? Pro Bowl? Ha ha ha ha. In the East,
    Kelly missed a few games and played very good one week and absolutely
    horrible the next. Marino didn't put up his usual numbers but I think I
    only saw him once. Going from reports he had an off year. The rest of
    the East teams don't have a mediocre Qb between them. Elway had one
    very good half, against an incredibly horrible defensive effort by the
    Steelers. For the most of the season, he sucked. The rest of the west
    was QB derby. Now that Boomer has pulled out, I suggest they just pull
    a name out of a hat to take his place.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Vikes Defensive coordinator

      Oilers can match up on both sides of the line???  Is that 
    why they lost to Cinnci 61-7??
    
      Boomers is a good QB because he has one of the biggest off-lines
    blocking for him.  That goes for Moon too.
    
      Broncos rule AFC during the 80's.  Glanville should retire!
    
    		Tj

    I'd like to see Stallings go to Houston.  He's a native Texan and a
    natural fit.
    
    Mike

    Not another Stallings Fan....  JoJ, did you brain wash this guy ?
    
    
    A Kinder&Gentler(tm) Big Game
    

    No Jack, that way Doc's team will never win :-)
    
    Mike

    	You know Doc, a couple of years ago I thought the Oilers were
    a team on the rise.  Now they are very reminiscent of the Patriot
    teams of the late 70's.  The Oilers lost a lot of depth to Plan
    B, the Pats after a very good 1976 season traded or released some
    veteran leadership (Webster, Bob Howard and Jesse Phillips come
    to mind) for younger, cheaper players.  They were never the same
    after.  
    
    				/Don

    
    Going with the K & G promotion...
    
    	Mac...I didn't say you were wrong in stating the deal about
    	3 years...I said "Cleveland made the playoffs 5 years in a
    	row!"...thats it.  That is a FACT!
    
    	ARF!
    

    
    Hoot, Bubby missed three or four games early on in the season. The
    team lost without him except against the Browns. Maybe not now but
    within the next few years Bubby will be a pro-bowl QB and I'll have
    the last laugh....
    
    mike

    RE the Bronco fan on the Cincy blowout:  Houston was 1-1 against Cincy
    this year.
    
    So, ARF!, what did you mean by "Sorry Bub!" in .120?
    
    I deleted this to make a correction, but not until after Steve
    commented on it, so .150 is a comment on this:
    
    Latest Glanville News:  Jerry was in Atlanta interviewing with the
    Falcons.  Atlanta has said they aren't interested.  The Jets and the
    Cards admitted they were contacted by Glanville but also said they
    aren't interested.  Adams (owner) and Holovac (sp? - GM) will not state
    publicly what they will do about Glanville, but it is rumored Adams
    gave Jerry a no-confidence vote and at the least will not extend his
    contract beyond next year.  Rumor also has it that Glanville has been
    told to hire an offensive coordinator or else.  Jackie Schiller, former
    head coach of Texas A&M is still the rumored front runner for the Oiler
    job if Glanville gets canned.  Schiller and Adams are good buddies and
    Jackie has been Adams' guest for the last three Oiler home games. 
    UHouston's coach, Pardee, is also mentioned in rumors, but it is said
    there is still bad blood between he and Adams left over from when
    Pardee coached the USFL gamblers.
    

    I think you mean Jackie Sherill, the former Pitt and Texas A&M coach,
    don't you, Mac ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    Thanks, Bob, that's the one.  Just a typo you know :^}

    re .146
    
    Slasher, you have a point. Plan B killed the Oiler's in the depth
    department, but they still should have had enough to win the division.
    But there is no denying that the loss of Keith Bostic, Robert Banks
    and especially Jamie Williams really hurt Houston. Williams is the
    best blocking TE in the NFL, IMO, and was a solid, if underused
    receiver. A lareg part of the dropoff this year in the running game
    is due to the loss of Williams.
    
    Watch the 49er's running game go into overdrive with Jamie in the
    lineup pancaking LB's and linemen. I'm quite serious when I say
    that the Oilers need to swing a deal to get Williams back in Houston.
    
    Banks was a good players for the Browns this year, and would have
    certainly helped cushion the loss of Ray Childress. The defene never
    really recovered from his loss.
    
    But if it wasn't for the chicken-s**t Oiler front office, jerking
    players around when it came around to contract time, they never
    would have lost this many players.
    
    re .151
    
    Keith, the only reason why Glanville is still around even now, is
    because Bud Adams remembers the last time he fired a coach who took
    the Oilers to 3 straight playoff appearances (Bum Phillips).
    
    As for the Falcon's and Jets giving Jerry the brushoff, I'm not
    suprised. I remember on article in Inside Sports, where an NFL
    coach/official, said, "If he [Glanville] gets fired, I doubt like
    hell if he'll ever get another head job .... he's pi--ed too many
    people off."
    
    Once again, Jackie Sherrill is the worse possible coach for the
    Oilers. It will be another Lou Holtz/Jimmy Johnson experience, IMO.
    Sherrill has a huge ego, and being coach/AD allows you to flex your
    muscles. That college stuff won't work in the NFL. 
    
    And as Buddy Ryan would say, there are no Rice Universities in the
    NFL. Sherrill didn't really impress me for the first few years of
    his Aggie tenure. In fact, Kevin Murray saved his butt from the
    alumni by leading A&M to 3 straight Cotton Bowls. I will give Sherrill
    gredit for hiring some good assistants.
    
    All in all, given a choice, I'd sooner see Jack Pardee at the helm
    of the Oilers. He'll get the defense in shape, and having experience
    with the run and shoot, will give the offense all of the latitude
    it needs.
    
    Somehow, I expect Bud to do exactly the wrong thing ....
    
    DrM

    re: -1
    
    Buddy said that there are no East Carolina's in the NFL
    
    Dennis
    

    Glanville's history.  Submitted his resignation today.  Big teary-eyed
    press conference.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    I heard Marion Campbell was high on the list as a replacement.
    

     I wonder.....   Was it one of those "Resign or be prosecuted"
    deals or has he just had enough !!
    
    Big Game

    Current rumors on Glanville's replacements:
    
    Sherill is no longer high on the list.  He reportedly only wants
    managerial responsibility and Holovak (sp) the current GM is not going
    anywhere.  Jack Pardee has supposedly moved up to #1 candidate.  Pardee
    has pro experience.  The UofH has said that the Oilers haven't
    contacted Pardee and he is very happy with the Cougars.  Other
    possiblities now being mentioned are the defensive coordinator with the
    Broncos and the assistant head coach of the Redskins.
    
    They say that Glanville went into the meetings with Adams looking for
    an extension and more say in the Oilers personnel, particularly in the
    draft.  It is rumored that Glanville tried to get the Oilers to trade
    up in last year's draft so they could get Metcalf.  Glanville was also
    one of the lowest paid head coaches in the NFL.  Adams allegedly told
    Glanville to get an offensive coordinator or get lost.  Apparently
    Oilers managment wasn't too happy with some of the remarks Glanville
    made to the Atlanta press while he was interviewing for the Falcons
    job.  As you know, they reached a mutual agreement.  Glanville will get
    paid to NOT coach the Oilers next year (he still had one year left on
    his contract).
    
    Player reaction:  Moon has publicly stated that he was just happy that
    a decision was made.  Rumors are that he hasn't been very happy with
    Jerry's playcalling.  Jeffires is very upset.  He said it was the
    players' own fault they didn't perform well this season.  Other players
    who refused to be identified are very happy Jerry is gone.
    
    Atlanta has now said that they are very interested in Jerry for their
    head coach position.

    One noter referred to the Oilers losing "15 players to Plan B".
    Could someone please explain the significance of Plan B?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ted.

    Doc - Get rid of Mike (I used to coach the Patriots) Holovak and
    you may have a front office with some brains.
    
    Rich
    

    Thanks Keith for the info ... I've been tempted to have the Houston
    Chronicle delivered to my door in Shrewsbury ... :-)
    
    I'm glad Sherrill is out of the picture. I would like to see
    Peters of the Vikes interviewed (yesterday's performace
    notwithstanding). 
    
    Whatever happens, please not Wade Phillips. Bum is a demi-God to
    this day in Houston, mostly because of his good-ole-boy personna,
    that captivated many of the good-ole-boys in Houston.
    
    Sure, the Oilers went to they playoffs 3 years in a row, but so
    did Jerry right ?
    
    In fact, I will say that Bum was not that great a field coach. A
    good defensive coach (the Oilers had one of the best 5 defenses
    in the league while he was there), and a great motivator (players
    liked him), but he was questionable with some of his personnel moves.
    
    Anyhow, Houston has longed for Phillips, and it would highly unfair
    to all if Wade came into this situation. 
    
    As for the players : I think Moon has had problems with Glanville
    from Day 1. Glanville believes in 'smash-mouth' football, if he
    had his way, Moon would throw 15-20 passes a game. You can guess
    how that made Moon feel. (Aside : Glanville also had a few dispaging
    things to say about the man who he replaced, Hugh Campbell. Campbell
    coached Moon in Canada, and Moon has a lot of respect and regard
    for Campbell. I cn't be sure that Moon was not affected by that
    either.)
    
    The running backs wanted more carries this year, Mike Rozier said
    little, but was a very frustrated man this year. If Alonzo Highsmith
    had 20 carries a game, the whole league will know why only Roger
    Craig can be considered in his class.
    
    I know Ernest Givens felt that Glanville was not the problem.
    
    Whatever the case, the new coach had better :
    
    1) Get along with Adams and Holovak, and be on the same wavelength
    with the GM.
    
    2) Convince the GM (Holovax) to pay his players.
    
    3) Mend any possible rifts with the Oiler players who were/are
    pro/anti-Glanville. 
    
    4) Keep the offense wide-open, but make full use of Rozier, Highsmith,
    et al ...
    
    re Metcalf 
    
    Glanville doesn't have enough time or footballs to keep the backs
    he does have happy. How's he going to use Metcalf ? (I still would
    have liked the move, at least it would have weakened Cleveland.)  
    
    This should be interesting .... I'd like to see if Dennis Green
    of Stanford is interviewed ...

    re .161
    
    I agree Rich. If Holovak doesn't start paying players, it won't
    matter if Lombardi or Halas is the coach. I'm sick of seeing unhappy
    players, and holdout draft picks. What has happened to Drew Hill
    is criminal, and the Oilers really didn't want to pay Moon what
    he was worth, but they had no choice.
    
    If the penny-pinching keeps up, we'll lose everybody to free-agency.
    
    Another thing : I'd like to see Richard Johnson get a chance. Glanville
    and him never hit it off, and Johnson was buried down the bench
    for a coupleof Glanville favorites Jeff Donaldson, and Patrick
    (Microwave) Allen.
    
    

    Any truth to the rumor that Houston's front office wanted Glanville to
    stay?
    
    Mike

    Bud Adams interviewed Jack Pardee over the phone yesterday for the
    Oilers head coaching job.  Pardee said he is interested.  He wants a
    decision made soon so he knows what to do about recruiting at UofH. 
    The AD at UofH said they will try to put something together to entice
    Pardee to stay but admitted that it would be tough to compete with a
    pro franchise in the same city.  Rumor has it that if Pardee does
    get/take the job, the QB coach from Detroit would try to come to
    Houston as well.

    
    Big Mac,
    Would that be Mouse Davis, originator of the run and shoot, or is he
    Detroit's offensive coordinator?

Mouse davis is the offensive coordinator for the Lions....

Metz

    It's not him, Hoot.  The QB coach's name is something like June Jones
    or James June or...

Just heard that Jack Pardee has been named new head coach for the Oilers.

jack has been the head coach for the University of Houston Cougars.

		Ed^2

�                      -< It's "Pardee" Time in Houston! >-
    
    The headline in today's Austin American Statesman was "It's Pardee Time
    for the Oilers".
    
    The offensive coordinator for the Cougars turned down Pardee's offer to
    join him and took the head coaching job at UofH instead.  Pardee will
    probably bring along his defensive coordinator, though.  The QB coach
    for Detroit (June Jones?) is still rumored to be coming to the Oilers
    to take his old job back.
    
    Pardee said his first priorty with the Oilers will be to eliminate the
    stupid penalties.
    

    
    Thanks, Mac. I remember June Jones. He was a reserve QB for a couple of
    NFL teams.

Where did June Jones (real *manly* name there, eh Ward and Beav?)
play his college ball and when?

The name sounds familiar, and I cain't figure out why...

Chainsaw

    June played at orgeon I think, and was a R&S QB himself. Played
    for the Falcons for awhile.
    
    That's good news, having Pardee as coach. A good guy, and a solid
    coach. He seems like he can put together a good defense, which is
    a higher priority than the O right now. Having Jones come in doesn't
    necessarily mean anything. Jones was in Houston 2 years ago as the
    QB coach under Glanville. I do believe we will see more of the "Red
    Gun" offense (love that name), and a more aggressive offense (no
    more run, run, run on 1st down in 2-back sets). 
    
    But don't expect to see a pure run and shoot, like Detriot. Houston
    has too many good backs to use a one back set all of the time, and
    I believe that it would be counterproductive.
    
    But Jack, get that secondary together - PLEASE !

    
    Yeah Dock, Pardee did wonders for the Skins......
    
    mike

    re -1
       He started 6-0 his first year. He drafted Art Monk. His last
    season as coach he finished 10-6. His three season record is .500.
    That is better than any coach in the history of the Jets. ;'}
    
                            Steve J.

    Amen Steve, especially since he had to take over a team that didn't have
    a decent draft pick comming (except for Monk) for a decade, thanks
    to George "How about that 60 year old tackle for my 1st round pick"
    Allen. 
    
    And the Skins played good football. I think he'll do well, but once
    again, I stress the madhouse that passes for a front office in Houston.
    They'll screw up a good thing every single time.

    June has been given permission by Detroit to talk to the Oilers.  Other
    coaches that may come along with Pardee from UH include the offensive
    line coach, and the defensive back coach.  It sounds like all of
    Jerry's coaches will be looking for jobs along with Jerry.

       Sounds like another guy bringing college coaches with him to
    the NFL. Meyer did it at NE and JJ did it at Dallas. It doesn't
    work.
                                      Denny

>>    June has been given permission by Detroit to talk to the Oilers.

June who?  June Lockhart, former mother on _Lost in Space_?  People don't know
what a football master mind she really is.

Or did I miss something by Nexted Unseening through the conference?

j.

C'mon Jeff, get with the program....

Surely you can figure out that they're talking about June Cleaver.
Why even her name stirs images of football teams rushing the ball
through the center of the line, cleaving, as it were, the defense
in two.

(Not to be confused with "Cleaving Unto", which is something football
players like to do after the game with cheerleaders and/or groupies)

There you have it...

Chainsaw

   Hey, there's a guy from Leominster Ma coaching for the Oilers. I can't
   think of his name now. I pretty sure he was the running back coach.
   Any word if he'll get the boot too?

Chuck

    Frank Novak I believe is the name of the coach.
    
    John

    I wish the paper would wait until they get the whole story.  They are
    making me look bad.
    
    Today the paper said that the Lions DENIED June Jones permission to
    talk to the Oilers about the OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR post.
    
    Pardee stated that he will not neccesarily clean house with regard to
    the rest of the Oiler coaching staff.  He is going to talk with each of
    Glanville's coaches individually and make a decision on whether or not
    to stay with them.

    I believe June Jones played his college ball at Georgia.
    
    Rich
    

    Hey, Doc.  How did you miss this:
    
    Warren Moon was named the NFL's Man of the Year.  

    He was also the Traveler's man of the year (or are they the same
    thing?)
    
    JD

    I guess there's no NFL Man of the Year so you guys are just talking of
    the same thing.  Am I correct?
    
    Charles
    

    Charles, I'm pretty sure it is the NFL Man of the Year (although it
    might be sponsored by Traveller's).  I believe the award is based
    mainly on off-field/community service type actions.

    re.191
    
    I guess Bernie "Fudge" Kosar will get woman of the year, then.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Thanks Keith, I didn't miss it, but SPORTS was out the few times
    I've had a chance to enter a note.
    
    Doc

    BTW, the Oilers for all of their 'dirty play' rep lead the league
    in this catagory :
    
    
    Most money given as a team to chairtiable causes.
    
    For all of Glanville's faults, I feel that he deserves a fair amount
    of credit for this stat as well, as he set a great example with
    his work with the Children's Hospital in Houston.
    
    DrM

    Oiler's tackle Doug Smith was shot in the knee after an altercation
    near his parents' home.  He was shot while trying to run away from the
    guy.  He is apparently doing OK, but no prognosis  is available yet on
    how it will affect his career.  The police caught the guy who shot him
    and he has been freed on $10,000 bail.

    I understand that the Oilers have signed Gerald McNeil WR/KR off
    the Plan B line.
    
    McNeil is a decent receiver, but I look forward to his kick returning.
    He should give the Oilers their best return man since Carl Roaches
    in the early 80's.
    
    I hope this is the first of many signings of Plan B agents  for
    Houston to make up for last years debacle.
    
    Doc

    
    McNeil has not yet signed with the oilers...
    

    
    The media around here is claiming he is coming to Denver.

    
    Yeah, but in Cleveland they're all laughing because he's already
    resigned with the Browns... but they can't announce it until 
    april 1st.
    

    Funny, this was in the Sat. Globe, McNeil had signed a two year
    contact. While it wouldn't be a bad acqusition, we need DB's more
    than anything else ...

    
    April 1st..   great day to allow re-signing by the original team.  
    
    Hey guy, you know we were gonna sign you for big money, like we said, 
    but April Fools!
    What about all those offers you turned down.. well, we're sorry!  
    
    Plan B, what a joke!  

    The Oiler's are going to honor RB White's request to be traded.
    
    I suppose they would have to trade a couple of their RB's anyway since
    they are going to a run and shoot under Pardee which is a 1 back
    offense.
    

    
    Any word on interested parties?  I know the Browns are interested
    in White, but its highly unlikely that the Oilers would trade within
    the division.  They haven't been able able to beat the Browns, so
    why help them.

    Oiler tidbits :
    
    Don MacPherson looked *really* good in his stint against the Giants. 
    
    Cody Carlson had better get into camp soon, or he might find himself
    Number 3 on the depth chart.
    
    Tony Jones, formerly of UT, has impressed the heck out of everyone with
    his 4.2 speed (IN PADS no less) in camp. If his hands are half as good
    as his speed, he could be frightening.
    
    Lamar Lathon seems to be coming along fairly well, but Terry Kinard
    (a projected starter at FS) twisted a knee, and may not be back until
    the season opener. Ouch.
    
    Question : Where did Lorenzo White get traded to ?
    
    FWIW, the Oilers will struggle for the first 5-7 weeks, IMO. While the
    Run and Shoot and Red Gun have their simularties, there are some major
    adjustments that muct be made in any case. If the Lions took 8 weeks to
    get it down pat, I see the Oilers doing it in 5 ....
    
    Of more concern is the conversion to a 4-3 front. That may take longer,
    and a lot will depend on how well Lathon can play the outside. The
    Oilers desperately need his play-play ability.
    
    Finally, how about this for a fantasy trade :
    
    Mike Rozier and a Number 1 next year for Eric Dickerson ?
    
    Doc
    

    I see nobody mentioned that the Falcolns blasted the Bengals 34-17, as
    Chris Miller threw 3 TD's two to Andre Rison.
    
    Even though it was a preseason game, you can't convince me that
    Glanville and Wyche weren't fired up for this one !
    
    BTW, the NFL scheudle make certainly has a sense of humor eh ?
    
    The Oliers play the Falcons this year, as do the Bengals. And of course
    I'm looking forward to both Cinncinati-Houston wars ....

    Last item :
    
    I'd like to cast my vote to the Falcons for The NFL's Sharpest Home
    Uniforms. The black helmets and jerseys are too hype !!!!!

  <<< Note 37.204 by EARRTH::BROOKS "A radical thinker on a musical level" >>>

   > Oiler tidbits :
   > 
   > Cody Carlson had better get into camp soon, or he might find himself
   > Number 3 on the depth chart.
   > 
   > Question : Where did Lorenzo White get traded to ?
    
    Hey Doc, I saw Carlson play at least a set or two against the Giants
    this weekend, and White was mentioned prominently in the ESPN Oilers
    preview late last week.
    
    Dan

    Thanks Dan, I only saw parts of the 2nd (?) and 3rd quarter. I still
    think there may be a battle for the #2 job.
    
    And I could have sworn that White had been traded. Oh well, now is the
    time to get some value for him.

re the Falcons uniforms:

(I know, this should probably be in the NFL topic) but WHEN did they
change?  This season?

At first, I thought my color was off on my TV set?

Do they think the color change will change their losing ways?

ACC Chris, you live in Hotlanta...what of this????

'Saw

    
    Have the Oilers won yet this preseason?
    
    

    Here's what gets me.  For years Glanville wore black on the sidelines
    at Houston "so his players could identify and find him quickly among
    all the personnel."  He looked dumb over there among all that crybaby
    blue, but I thought it was a good idea.
    
    So he goes to Atlanta, where he wouldn't look so dumb on the sidelines
    because black is in their color scheme.  And what do you know, ALL of
    Glanville's coaches are wearing black just like he is.  I just don't
    understand.
    
    Line of the year has got to go to Bob Hunt at the Redskin/Falcon
    preseason game a few weeks back.  Redskins ran back the opening kickoff
    and Bob yells: "Hey Jerry, welcome to Atlanta!"

    RE: Black Uniforms;
    
    It is something like the 25th anniversary of the Falcons, who wore
    black uniforms and/or helmets when they first came into existance.
    
    Coupled with the fact that Glanville has an ego the size of William
    Perry, he talked Falcons' management into a uniform change for the '90
    season!!
    
    
    Help this hopes,
    
    Nelly

    i have miller and  rison in ffl, comon guys, have a big yr!
    
    
    dinz
    

       <<< Note 37.214 by COBRA::DINSMORE "brooklyn lager.. and vimen" >>>

   > i have miller and  rison in ffl, comon guys, have a big yr!
    

    There you have it. If this isn't a warning for every 
    rotisserie owner to dump these two...

    daryll

    re .215 
    
    
    HAHAHAHA !!!!!
    
    re Last few,
    
    You guys are as mental as Glanville. Granted he's a nut, but the
    discussion was on the black uniforms. They look great, and all you guys
    can do is BLAM9tm) him ..... I wonder who is jealous ....
    
    FWIW, Glanville should be able to improve this team. Altanta is not
    without some quality, and the George trade has really helped Atlanta by
    adding Rison, Hinton, and of course a #1 for nexted year. 
    
    However, I believe that Atlanta will hit a plateau, just like the
    Oilers did, unless Glanville shows the ability to learn from his
    mistakes.
    
    DrM

>    You guys are as mental as Glanville. Granted he's a nut, but the
>    discussion was on the black uniforms. They look great, and all you guys
>    can do is BLAM9tm) him ..... I wonder who is jealous ....
    
    Never said the unies looked bad.  In fact, I think they're the coolest
    in the NFL right now.  I was in Atlanta the day they were debuted and
    took a liking to them right away.
    
    But as I commented to Bob Hunt during the preseason game againt the
    Skins when the Falcons 1st string was getting destroyed, "You can dress
    'em up, but..."
    
    I'll be jealous when Atlanta has five Super Bowl rings.  Until then,
    the real guys in black live in Pittsburgh and LA.
    
    	--dan'l
    
    

    There was another "cheer" we had for ol' Jerry the night of that Skins
    game in Chapel Hill.
    
    During the first quarter when Chris Miller looked like Chris Evert, we
    encouraged Jerry to "Go ahead, give Warren a call, Jer ..."
    
    Of course, being a true Eagles fan and rooting against *both* teams, I
    made sure we got a "Bring back Doug" chant going when Rypien started to
    struggle.
    
    Bob Hunt

    I'm suprised nobody mentioned the Highsmith Highway robbery .....
    
    The Cowgirls ripped off the Oilers, end of story.

>>    I'm suprised nobody mentioned the Highsmith Highway robbery .....
    
>>    The Cowgirls ripped off the Oilers, end of story.


    Doc, I haven't heard the details of the trade, do you know them???

    Oilers are still loaded at the tailback spot.

Chuck

    Even though highsmith is an incredible player I still feel he was not a
    perfect match for the run-'n-shoot.  he probably would have been
    released so they traded for conditional picks.  Sound good to me, by
    the way Im a big Cowboy fan.:):)
    
    John R.

    Ha. Highsmith, as i said before is the best all-purpose back east of
    that Craig fellow in SF. He blocks (and I mean he puts guys on their
    butts), he is a solid inside runner, and is an above-average reciever
    with speed. Rozier is a fine runner, and so is White, but Rozier won't
    even be a starter in 2 years, tops. White and Rozier are so-so out of
    the backfield, and Pinkett is a good player, but isn't a dominate
    runner.
    
    You'll never convince me that it was a good deal for Houston, first
    they trade him, then to Dallas ! Moreover, the Oilers could have gotten
    some great help on defense for Highsmith, but they didn't  ...
    
    Holovak is a moron.
    
    Doc

 Doc, while I like Highsmith he's nothing compare to Neal Anderson as a
 matter of fact neither is Craig....

 mike

    Mike, Anderson is a halfback - I'm talking fullbacks for the most part.
    Even so, Anderson is nowhere near the blocker that Highsmith is, and
    doesn't hold much (if any) of a lead as a receiver. As a runner, well
    ....
    
    In any case, the Cowboys got the better of the deal as long as they
    didn't give up a #1 or very high #2 pick - which they didn't.

>    Ha. Highsmith, as i said before is the best all-purpose back east of
>    that Craig fellow in SF. He blocks (and I mean he puts guys on their
>    butts), he is a solid inside runner, and is an above-average reciever
>    with speed.    
   
 Doc, doesn't look to me like you were saying as fullbacks go Highsmith is
 the best by these statements. I'll agree that Anderson is not the blocker
 that Alonzo is but as a runner he's got it over him because he can go
 inside and outside. As receivers I still think you have to give the edge to
 Anderson. Of course Highsmith is a good receiver but how often did the
 Oilers throw to him? Also I would say that on a pass pattern after the catch
 Anderson is more dangerous....

 mike

    I think you hit it in the head when you pointed out that the Oilers
    don't throw him the ball. In fact, Houston saw Alonzo as nothing more
    than a blocker who would get the ball about 10-12 times a game.
    Apparantly, Pardee didn't feel the need to change that ... :-(

    Highsmith is also coming off an knee injury, while anderson is healthy
    and well rested from a year out of football.  If we are talking about
    good fullbacks don't forget Williams in Seattle.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    I must say I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the game down in
    Grits Country.
    
    47-27. 
    
    Ouch.
    
    The Oilers turned the ball over 6 times, Atlanta cashed in for 4 TD's
    as a result, two fumble recoverys, and a back-breaking 80 yd TD return
    by Neon Deion. (With a great world-class endzone dance to boot.)
    
    Moon had a mixed day 32-52 for 398 yards and 4 TD's (He could throw for
    40 this year). But he tossed two INTs, and fumbled twice.
    
    Speaking of which, where the hell were the real refs ? At least two
    fumbles should have been dead balls, and players on both sides reacted
    that way ... next thing I knew ... TD Atlanta.
    
    The Oilers made a pretty good comeback from 27-0 in the first half to
    37-27 with about 5 minutes remaining. Then Greg Davis' 51 yard FG,
    followed by  Sanders' INT return ended matters.
    
    Of course, all of this was a mere prelude to what happened AFTER the
    final gun. Glanville did not shake Pardee's hand, and later blasted him
    in the press confernce, calling Pardee a "total jerk", and dedicating
    the game ball to Forrest Gregg and the SMU team, after the 95-21
    blowout by Pardee's Cougars last year.
    
    Jerry, you've been tasteless before, but you've hit rock-bottom. That
    was straight from the Wyche school of tackiness.... :-(
    
    It would be nice if the Oilers could meet Atlanta in the SB, but
    Atlanta won't make it. Oh well ....
    
    

    
    I see houston for  3rd doc, behind  brownies
    
    dinz
    

       send him mail dock
    

    /Don, what does Dan think about dock sending dinz mail?
    

    	Dan, send me mail about what you think about Doc sending Dinz
    mail.  And Doc, quit your whining about the REFS�!  Your starting
    to sound like the Raving One.
    
    				/Don

    
    whats this mail stuff?
    
    

    	Dinz, send me mail about it...

       Mebbe you better mail him the hat slasher!!
                                                 Denny

    
    jesus.. i need this abuse...
    

    
    No blasphemy please. Cripes did I spell that right? 8^)
    
    
    
    Steve

    Dinz, send me mail and I'll mail you a send.  I mean, I'll explain.
    
    That is, of course, as long as Digger keeps his mail to himself.
    
    Lee

And you can handle any mail you want as long as it's your own mail.
I mean you wouldn't want to be handling anyone else's mail, but if
you did want to handle someone else's mail I wouldn't want you
handling my mail, because I'm not into handling someone else's mail
or having someone else handle my mail if that person is into handling
someone else's mail.

Didn't you know that?
'Saw

    'Saw, I knew that you knew that we knew that.
    
    dinz send jeff needle mail  :-)
    

    Will you *ssh*les stop with the damn mail.

/Don, send Dinz mail about Hawk knowing that I knew that he knew that.

Lee, send mail to Dock to explain Dinz sending mail to Jeff and Mac.

Everybody send mail to everybody else to remind them not to drink bottled
water.

'Saw

    'Saw, send your *ssh*le mail.  I know I will.  :-)
    

Okay, I'll send my *ssh*le mail.  What should I explain?

'Saw

    Why don't you guys set up a conference call via VAXphone and spare the
    rest of us?
    
    Please!

    
    What mail? By the way the Soilers will stink this season without
    Glanville. He definitely gave them an edge, even tho' I detest the man.
    
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    Glanville's "edge" was offset by his poor in-game coaching decisions in
    big games.
    
    Moreover, the Oiler defense regressed bigtime last year.

    
    	I Think the Oiler's will miss Glanville more than you think.
    "The Edge" was a large part of there successfull turn around and
    Glanville had alot to do with that. He may have not brought the 
    true sportsmanship out in his players but he got them to play 
    a tough, hard-nose, "in your face", brand of football that brought 
    the Oilers some success.
    
    
    
    Steve

HEY!!!!!! Get this Oiler/Glanville stuff out of here!!!!!  This topic is
about MAIL.  and there ain't one male on the oilers team anyway :-)

	Ed^2

    It's patently obvious that Friday came early this week!  :-)
    
    Send me mail if you need an explanation.
    
    A&W
    

    Well, jerry Glanviile apologized to Jack Pardee yesterday for calling
    him a "total jerk", and said he was not referring to the state of Texas
    when he said, "Texas can kiss my butt."
    
    Sez Glanville (in Wednesday's Houston Post),
    
    "I'm a jerk for calling him (Pardee) a jerk....I apologize to Jack. I
    lead America in making mistakes, I'm No. 1 in making mistakes. And I'm
    not sure anybody is a close second."
    
    It was nice to apologize Jerry, but I think it's a damned shame when
    you tarnish what should have been a great moment for you personally with 
    a thoughtless outburst in the first place.
    ========================
    
    The Oilers have resigned Don MacPherson for a third time. What in the
    hell is going on ????
    
    =====================
    
    Richard Johnson led the Oilers last week with nine total tackles seven
    of them solo.
    ====================
    
    In Glanville's new autobiography, USA Today pointed out that there were
    67 references to Elvis. How many references of Moon ?
    
    Zero.
    
    hmmmm ......
    
    ========================
    
    Sunday night ;
    
    The Run and Shoot may get a chance to get fine-tuned against a Steelers
    team that will be missing Thomas Everett, Rod Woodson, and Delton Hall.
    This could be a seriosu blowout except for the fact that the Oilers D
    is still a long ways away, and Brister could make some big plays
    against the Oilers if the pass rush isn't there.  Look for Moon to have
    a big day, and for the Oiler running game (just 21 total yards last
    week) to stumble early, but come on late as the pass sets up the run.
    Steelers usually have a habit of getting up for the Oilers, but without
    3/4 of their starting backfield, the D is in trouble unless they can gt
    to Moon with a strong rush. they might, but not nearly enough.
    
    Houston 41
    Steelers 21

>>    
>    In Glanville's new autobiography, USA Today pointed out that there were
>    67 references to Elvis. How many references of Moon ?
>    
>    Zero.
>    
>    hmmmm ......


Worn Moon(tm) couldn't carry Elvis' jock ;^)    

�...couldn't carry Elvis' jock ;^)    
    
    The thing'd have to be huge just to fit around his regal waist.

    Doc,
    
    Butt there were 45 reference's to Elvis' Moon, but none to Warren's
    Elvis (tm)......
    
    JD

    Well JD, when Elvis decided to Moon somebody, he could generate one
    hell of an eclipse ....

    Well the Oilers can't be too happy about the outcome of the NL West
    division race.  Since the Reds won, the next game between the Oilers
    and the Bengals will have to be played in Houston.  This means that the
    Oilers will have to play Cincy in Cincy in late December.

    They'll be okay Mac, the Oilers are used to playing Pittsburg and
    Cleveland in late December, so it won't be a total shock.
    
    As a side note, the Oilers were number 1 in both offense and defense in
    the AFC going into the Charger game. Of course, they haven't seen a
    top-level offense yet this year.
    
    But they will Sunday .....

    >I just hope these idiots in NE will televise the game
       What game is that? And WHY should they televise it here just because
    it involves the Oilers?
                                      Denny

    Because it shapes up to be a good game Denny .... I know you like and
    enjoy mediocrity, but some football fans like to see a good game.
    
    In other words, skip the Giants-Cowboys, Clevland-KC, NE-Jests, and
    Green Bay - Slippery Rock "matchups".
    
    Even Ray Charles could see that this region of the country got some
    stinko games (both on paper and on the field) the last three weeks.
    
    (Most of the nation saw the Raiders and Bears - but not us !)

       They DID skip NE-Jest it was blacked out. Sometimes the stations
    don't have a choice of what games they show. It's in the TV contract.
                                       Denny

    The Oilers have waived Mike Rozier.  Holovak said that they could not
    work a trade for him, so they just gave him his walking papers.  He
    said money was not an issue (Rozier was the highest paid back on the
    team).  They will probably replace him with a rookie running back who
    can play special teams.

       Will Mcdonough predicted this last weekend. He thinks Glandville
    will pick him up.
                                         Denny

    Doc,
    
    I was wild last week when the Raiders/Bears wasn't televised in N.E.
    Best matchup of the week and it wasn't shown.  There had to be a reason
    for it (large Giants following in the area or whatever).
    
    					Steve

    You're probably right, Denny.  The paper did mention that Atlanta and
    the Rams were two teams that expressed an interest in Rozier.
    
    Steve, I'll bet you're right about the Giants following swaying the
    local TV stations into which game to cover.  By why they would want to
    listen to anyone like Dinz or Mike C. is beyond me ;^)

    RE not getting the Bears last week.
    
    I was also seriously bummed at not getting that game.  And I think we
    coulda gotten both.  Weren't the Giants the early game and the Bears
    the late game?  Or am I dipping into Frank's 'shrooms?
    
    A&W

 But it was NBC's doubleheader week so CBS could a. televise the 1:00 clock
 game or b. televise the 4:00 game. They sent Madden and Summerall to the
 Meadowlands so it figures that they felt and rightfully so that the Giants/
 Cowboys would be the biggest drawing game on. NBC could have shown it but
 for some reason beyond me actually expected the KC/Browns to be a contest
 so they went with that as their 4:00 national game I guess. Unless of course
 the Pats/Jets was the national 4:00 game but I doubt it because mr. Oh My
 and mr. well with the 49 ers we did this were in KC.......

 mike

       The Giants are on here as much as possible. Can't blame CBS a bit
    for that!$$ Only one of the Networks cain show a double header, and
    they alternate for that. 
                                           Denny

    
    But, why oh why, did the NBC affiliates outside of Boston show the 
    Miami-Pitts. game instead of the Buffalo-Denver game..  This choice 
    really confused me.  
    
    /Jeff   

Because I personally request it Jeff. Do you think I wanted to hear some
announcers drone on about Intys Elway?  ;^) I would guess that if NBC sets
priorities on their games Miami/Pitt had a higher priority due to both teams
being on the east coast more of their fans would be up available and ready to
watch the game. Denver fans would have to start watching at what 11:00am so
less of their fans would be available at that time to view the game because
of church, sunday dinner etc...

mike  

    The reason you get the Giants games in New England instead of the
    Bears games is simple geography.  Everyone get out a rand McNally.
    Locate New England.  Now, locate the NY Metro area.  Locate the
    Chicago area.  Which is closer?
    
    Out here in Seattle we get the San Francisco games and not the Giants
    games.  Guess why?  Get out the Rand McNally.....
    
    JD

       Sheesh JD, that's too logical! Did they teach you that in school?
                                      Denny

    I think Pittsburgh should pick up Rozier.  Then Walton can have another
    quality back that he doesn't use.  Then we could sign Montana as
    Brister's backup.
    
    	--dan'l

    Hey  Guys,
    
    i watched the raiders  and Bears on channel 6 last week..
    
    
    
    dinz
    

       As Mcdonough predicted, Glandville picked up Rozier.
                                            Denny

    Let's here it for Oiler management ....
    
    This time last year the Oilers had 4, count 'em FOUR quality running
    backs ... Rozier, Highsmith, Pinkett, and White.
    
    Mistake #1 : Pardee announces off the bat that Houston will go to the
    Run and Shoot. 
    
    Instantly, the Oilers lose fair market value on at least two of their
    backs, because everyone knows that you can't keep for backs happy in a
    one-back offense. Stupid.
    
    Mistake #2 : The Oilers trade Highsmith, who is the most complete back
    on the roster - you better believe that Moon will miss the blitz
    blocking of Highsmith. And no, they didn't get fair value for him.
    
    Mistake #3 : As a result of M #1, the Oilers can't get decent value for
    Rozier, and give him away to Atlanta.
    
    Holovak and Pardee need to be horsewhipped ......

Hey doc,

Word in Cowboy camp is the Highsmith is damaged goods. He's got an injured 
ankle that is limiting his practice time. I don't know if it is a chronic
problem or just a this season injury.

While they didn't get good value for either back they at least got rid of the
right guys and kept Pinkett and White. These are the two best R&S backs that
they have....

Oilers have a tough schedule this year.....


Metz

    >Instantly, the Oilers lose fair market value on at least two of their
    >backs, because everyone knows that you can't keep for backs happy in a
    >one-back offense. Stupid.
    
    Compared to what?  The Oilers hadn't been that successful at keeping
    their 4 backs happy before the run and shoot either.  There was no
    discernable change in that pattern other than a front office and staff
    willing to thin them out.
    
    If they had followed your formula, I have my doubts whether they would
    have landed better returns.  Rozier is 29.  Both have had injury
    problems which increase the risk for their acquirers.  No NFL team
    pulls off much in trades anymore accept for the occasional rare deal,
    and it's never been for gimpy veteran running backs since OJ Simpson.
    
    Dan
       

    Yeah Dan, but there was the chance that they could make a solid deal
    for at least one of the backs, but once they went a one back O, other
    teams bascially sat back and waited for the Oilers to come to them.
    
    As fro Pinkett and White, neither man is a true breakway threat.
    Pinkett is probably the better all-around back (super-strong for a man
    his size, good hands), White the better pure runner, but only a fair
    receiver and even less of a blocker. And you like a Run And Shoot back
    to be strong enough to run through an arm tackle of a DB, that's what
    makes Barry Sanders so special. White is a great slasher, but I'm not
    sure if he's the man to punish a DB ....
    
    And every blitz-backer on the Oilers' scheudle breathed a big sigh of
    relief when Highsmith got traded.
    
    re Metz,
    
    I believe that the ankle happened this year. His problem before was the
    knees ....

    Highsmiths knee problem was from his college days at Miami. The knee
    has been fine thru out his NFL career. He wasn't runnning that well 
    in the pre-season and rumors where his knee was acting up. The real 
    problem is a tender ankle that needs a few weeks off to completely 
    recover. One of those injuries that will slow a player down but not 
    enough to make him sit until it heals. Playing nicked makes for a 
    long season. Highsmith claims he sprain the ankle in early August while
    in the Houston camp.

    I think the Oilers could have gott'en more for Highsmith but Rozier
    has lost a big step. Nobody trades for an aging running back with a
    big contract.

Chuck

    	Doc, the biggest problem with the Oilers is...
    
    	THEY SIP!!

    Should be an interesting game in HOuston this sunday. The Oilers
    offense is 2nd in the NFL (1st passing, 27th rushing - what balance !
    :-) .... guess who's first ?
    
    However, SF has had a week off to help them prepare for the Run And
    Shoot, and that may be crucial. Other teams on different levels have
    managed to cook up suprises for R&S teams (ie. Texas A&M with their
    1-5-5 masterpiece), since they rely on read-on-the-run. 
    
    Moreover, it will be a great test, the 49er secondary vs the NFL's
    deepest receiving corps. While I think all of the attention will be
    paid to Givens and Hill, Haywood Jeffries could loom large - literally.
    at 6'3", he's the closest thing that the Oilers have to a TE.
    
    And keep an eye out for Curtis Duncan (a overacheiver, and highly
    underrated - probably has the best hands on the team), and especially
    rookie Tony Jones out of UT, a 5'6" guy with 4.2 speed.
    
    On the other side of theball, the Oiler defense is highly rated - 3rd
    in the NFL (7th against the run, 3rd against the pass), but they have
    played Pittsburgh, so we'd better put an asterik on that :-).
    
    Seriously, they haven't really faced an offense on the level of the
    Niners (2nd passing, 23rd rushing), and it's important for the Oilers
    to come out an shut down one of the Niners weapons early. Franlky I see
    Rice and Taylor getting loose against Houston. SF is 4th aganist the
    run, and Houston hasn't come close to running the ball the way they did
    in 89, let alone '88.
    
    I forsee a lot of passing, with at least 85 attempts between the two
    QB's.
    
    When the Oilers have had trouble in big games, it was due to early
    turnovers putting them in a hole, rather than that team blowing them
    off the line (Atlanta this year, Cinncinnati and KC last year). If SF
    walks away from Houston, it's probably because of 2 or 3 turnovers in
    the 1st period. SF has had trouble running the ball themselves, and
    Houston can't let them start now ....
    
    All in all, I think the off week the Niners had will prove to be really
    important, even if they might show some rust. Pardee will have the
    Oilers ready, hopefully with a minimum of silly mistakes.
    
    My heart says Houston, but my head tells me that they're still
    adjusting, and an experienced 49ers team will jump on their mistakes.
    Behind Moon, they will stage a hell of a rally, and Moon will throw for
    about 400+ yards (BTW, he's on a 5,000 yd pace), and outplay the
    Niners, but SF will probably set a NFL record for consecutive road wins
    - but without a war.
    
    Niners 38
    Oilers 35
    (Needless to say, I'm hoping I'm wrong, but the Oilers will have to
    have 2 or less turnovers to do it.)

    re-1
    
      One question. Do you live down in Montrose, around St Thomas maybe?
    
    Cadzilla 

    re .283
    
    I used to live off Bellfort, by Hobby Airport ...

    
    
    
    
    mY but it is sooooo quiet iun here.
    
    Lasted year, noters who were never seen before showed up to bash
    Houston.
    
    Bono, Gronowski, Rieu, et al ...
    
    Now, there's no one ...
    
    Gee, I wonder why ?
    
    48-17 ... HAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Moon 5 TD passes in 3 quarters. To 5 different receivers ! The run and
    shoot rolls up 520 yards.
    
    Remember Sam's comments from last year :
    
    Read below :
    
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some of Sam's comments after the game:
   "It's like playing against the bully in your high school, you finally
reach up and slug him in the teeth and he runs away."
   "We don't like this team. We don't like their people. When you get a 
chance to do it (run up the score), you do it. I wish today was a five-quarter
game. Our only real regret is that Lee Johnson missed that extra point (after
a 4th quarter TD). I must say it can't happen to a nicer team."
   "We were going right for their jugular. We just destroyed a good football
team, a team that if they didn't make so many dump mistakes really would
win a lot more games. I mean, really, you can only be so stupid, but they
have exceeded the limits here somehow."
   He also called Jerry Glanville "the biggest phony in professinal football."
    
    
    I wonder what he had to say after SUnday ?
    
    The Oilers showed considerably more class than Cincy did in those
    circumstances, since they could have run the score into the 50's with
    ease, but didn't.
    
    And Wyche isn't done yet. The Bungles play Atlanta, and Houston agian
    ... my guess is that he will be considerably more silent in the future, 
    eh ?
    
    heh heh heh ...
    
    Doc

    I don't care one way or the other about either the Oilers or the
    Bengals, but I was hardly sorry to see Sunday's outcome...
    
    
    py

    Didn't Wyche run up the score in response to Glanville running up the
    score the previous year?

    Nope .... allegedly, Glanville and the Oilers talked too much trash for
    the Bungles taste, so they ran it up on them.
    
    Fack is, Wyche made his bed HARD, and the Oilers are going to make him
    sleep in it for a long time.

So now that sucker Moon has rifled more than 20,000 yards in both the CFL and
now the NFL.

I can't believe the miniscule, teeny-weeny trajectory on passes longer than
50 yards.  They go so fast I caint believe the receivers can catch 'em.

rick ellis

       Sorry I didn't get your permission first Dock, but I was on
    vacation. Anyway, the Soilers still sip and won't make the playofffs.
                                       Denny

    Well, I said earlier that if the Oilers got to Week 8 at 4-3, the NFL
    had better look out below.... 
    
    And will you look at it - they ARE 4-3, which could have been 5-2, if
    not for a ultra-pathetic performance at Pittsburgh. More importantly,
    the defense is looking better than it has for a long time. While the
    Run and Shoot got all of the attention, Pardee installed the 4-3
    defense, and brought in Jim Eddy as the defensive coordinator. 
    
    The Oilers are now 6th in the NFL in total defense, and held the Saints
    to 61 yards rushing last week - 40 below their average. 
    
    I think that the 4 man line has really helped to make Ray Childress an
    even more dominating player than before, since it's a lot harder to
    double team a lineman in the 4-3. From the little I've seen, William
    Fuller and Sean Jones are playing great, and Glen Montgomery has been a
    pleasant suprise at DT.
    
    In the secondary, Glanville outcast Richard Johnson (a former number 1
    pick) has become a solid starter under Pardee, and his versitility has
    given the Oilers and added dimension. Terry Kinard's leadership and
    experience (not to mention an occasional hard knock) can not be
    underestimated, and Bubba McDowell is going to be a fixture in the Pro
    Bowl before too long.
    
    The linebacking has been steady, if unspectacular. I was sorry to hear
    the Robert Lyles had been waived - but it looks like Al Smith and JOhn
    Grimsley have been doing the job inside. Lamar Lathon, this year's top
    draft pick, is a fantastic athlete who just came off IR. Can't wait to
    see how he does ....
    
    On offense, Warren Moon is having another All-Pro year 60% completions,
    and 17TD's - all that despite at least 25 drops (this was thru Game 5,
    and counted by his O.C.) due to R&S adjustements. Based on the last two
    weeks, the Oilers are looking more and more like they're getting the
    hang of the offense. However, I've my concerns about the run. No Oiler
    back has been within screaming distance of a 100-yard game all year,
    and White and Pinkett are averaging a mediocre 3.5 yards per rush. That
    will have to improve.
    
    DrM

    The Oilers will be 4-4 after this Sunday...
    
    so the NFL better look out...below!
    
    Dan

    Dan, you sweat waaaaay tooo much .....

    Yep, shall we put some mon- er, I mean some 'points' on it ????

    >                  -< Care to back up what you say ? >-
    
    The last time the Jets and Oilers clashed was in 1988 under very
    similar circumstances (expect the Jets had Walton and were destructing,
    not rebuilding).  Oilers were heavy favorites.  
    
    Jets won 45-3.
    
    Remember that game, Doc?
    
    Dan

    Hey Dr. Midwife-hair
    
    I added the -hair cause your Houscum Oilscum lost the the Jests this
    week and your as quiet as a one cheek sneak in church, sort of like a
    certain Clevescum fan we know, Eh??
    
    JaKe
    

    Hardly FaKe ... I was out of the office ... but as long as J e Walton
    
                                                                o
    is in charge - I'm not worried, the Bungles are still the team to
    catch.
    
    But will somebody tell me how a team can generate 425 yards of offense
    and score 12 points ?
    
    And why the Oilers would pick up a stiff like Garcia ?

    >But will somebody tell me how a team can generate 425 yards of offense
    >and score 12 points ?
    
    Moon's stats are puffed up by the run and shoot to the detriment of the
    team.  The Jets outsmarted the Oilers by giving them the underneath all
    day long, but as you can see, they only reached the end zone once. 
    Moon also got sacked 5 times.
    
    Dan

    	Ha, ha, ha.  Dan with that kind of reasoning you should be coach
    at Notre Dame!  The Oilers blew that game.  They dropped more balls
    than an army doctor doing a short arm inspection.
    
    				/Don

Dan,

I don't recall Moon ever asking to play the run and shoot. He plays the offense
that the coach decides he should play. Moon is not puffing up his stats to 
the detriment of the team...He's running the offense he is told to.

Sometimes the R&S puts up huge numbers without resulting in points. The Jets
Bent but did not break on defense. The Oilers have to find some way to punch 
in the ball from inside the 20. The coaches should have made some sort of
adjustment to find a way to get the ball into the end zone.

It was a good defensive effort by the Jets who look to be improving this year.

Metz

    Metz, I didn't say Moon was doing this to Boggs-like.  It just is. 
    He's accumulating the best stats of his career, yet the team is only at
    .500.  They only scored 12 points against the Jets who gave Moon the run
    and shoot all day.  It wasn't fine or brilliant defense either.
    
    The result is that the total yards and Moon's stats are very misleading
    creatures when examining a team playing that style of football.
    
    Dan

oh...You said he was puffing up his stats at the expense of the team...

To me that implied that you were saying that he had some conscious decision
to make over puffing up his stats or helping the team. I see that was not 
your intention.

I think that the R&S is a viable NFL offense but you can't run it 100% of the
time. Atlanta seems to be the team that can best run the Spread offense at 
selected times and also switch to power 2 TE offense when it is needed.

I agree that you can't look at the offensive stats and determine the outcome
of the game. The only true way is too look at the score....otherwise you end
up sounding like Hal's ranting and ravings on what coulda and shoulda been..


Metz

 Drew Hill dropped a sure TD when he was five yard behind the guy on
 the Jets' 10. Moon made an awful pitch to White inside the 5 that
 White lost and the Jets recovered. Please Dan while the Jets did
 play a decent defensive game they certainly got plenty of help from
 the Oilers themself......

 mike

    Mike, those were probably the first dropped pass and fumbled pitch in
    the history of the NFL!  Thanks to those breaks the Jets won the game.
    
    BTW, they both happened in the first quarter.  The Oilers didn't score
    a TD until the beginning of the 4th quarter.  Obviously a lot more went
    on in that game than you can tell from the highlight show.
    
    The key point of the game was a 6-minute drive engineered by the Jets
    in the 4th quarter which ended up in a FG and a 5-point lead and more
    importantly only 40 seconds left on the clock.  Key plays was a 3rd
    down bootleg by O'Brien and a 3 and 14, 28 yard pass to Toon to keep it
    alive.
    
    Dan

    Dan is pointing out what many of the R&S critics have been saying for a
    while now.  The R&S gains alot of yards, but also gives up alot of
    sacks and turnovers.  The trouble the Oilers have in scoring may be
    that when the R&S gets down inside the 20, there just isn't alot of
    room to be making the neccessary reads and adjustments.

 hahahaa Dan good retort but the bottom line is the Jets defense wasn't
 as super as you wish, I was just providing some balance. I agree the
 key was the big drive and Toon's catch. I'm just trying to prevent you
 from having a big fall when the Jets crash and burn....

 OBJECTIVITY, remember?

 MIKE

    Outsmarted ? HAHHAHAHAHHAAAAA !!!!!!!!!
    
    Sorry Dan, but I managed to get the real scoop from the National, and
    SI a few hours later.
    
    White tried to catch a Moon pitchout on his facemask, and fumbled on
    the Jests 1 yard line. Garcia missed two FG's. And Drew Hill dropped a
    perfectly thrown Moon bomb (so much for giving up the underneath eh ?)
    that cost the Oilers another score.
    
    Dan, have you considered a life in politics ?
    
    On a more honest note, the Oiler defense once again acquitted itself
    well, allowing just 10 points to the Jests. 
    
    The Oilers are 4-4, but just a game out of first, and travel to meet
    the Rams in LA. LA is best when their backs are against the wall, and
    if this isn't a must game for the Lambs (2-5), what is ? It should make
    a good yardstick of how the Oilers have progressed as a road team.
    
    Moreover, the Oilers play 5 of their last 8 on the road, 4 within the
    conference, and 2 within the division .....
    
    Now the Oilers
    

    re .309
    
    Mike, there now ... you know that Dan is the true objective noter in
    this file, as long as we agree with him on ND, Joe ("King of The
    Overrated") Namath, and his beloved Jets ....
    
    As far as the numbers are concerned, yes Moon is rolling up awesome
    figures (he's on a pace to wipe out Marino's records for attempts and
    completions, and may top 5,000 yards and 35 TD's), as for production
    inside the 20, it comes back to the Oilers' running game. 
    
    It stinks. White is averaging perhaps 3.5 yards a carry, and the most
    consistently effective running play for Houston is Moon on the
    scramble. I agree that the Oilers will have to rediscover their
    drive-blocking skills in order to make that next step up. But don't kid
    yourselves, the R&S is here to stay. However, I expected the hardest
    phase to have passed by now. When you see sure-handed vets like Hill
    and Givens still dropping balls, something tells me that the Oilers
    haven't adjusted yet. Moreover, I don't see the variaty in the running
    offense that I see in Detroit with Sanders on the short screens,
    counters, and sprint draws. The running game looks bland, and the
    results are disappointing, especially when you consider that the Oilers
    had one of the league's best rushing teams only two years ago.
    
    Doc

    >Sorry Dan, but I managed to get the real scoop from the National, and
    >SI a few hours later.
    
    Oh did SI write about it too?  Good.  What the National had to say
    concurs with my recounting of events.
    
    Every team makes mistakes, and the Jets capitalized on some of the
    Oilers.  It's nothing to be embarrassed about.
    
    Dan

    Doc, don't ya feel kind of dopey first thinking the the Oilers were
    going to role all over the Jets, then making mealy-mouthed excuses why
    they didn't.  Just face facts.  The Jets dominate the Oilers
    routinely.  They've won 4 of the last 5 games the 2 teams have played.
    
    And Moon's stats don't mean squat compared to Marino's.  Again, the R&S
    distorts the stats.  You might think it's here to stay, but it's not
    here to win.
    
    BTW, you got the guts to show up this weekend?
    
    Dan

    Dan, if you're asking me to bail out your rag arm and John Elway
    football, the answer is no. 
    
    If you want a real QB to show you how to move the football, you might
    see me there ...
    
    Doc 

    And Dan don't go arund here trying to graft your twisted "park effects"
    arguments onto Moon and the Run And Shoot. There is no distortion here.
    Moon is shattering Marino's records, and he's doing it the old
    fashioned way : By throwing the hell out of the football.
    
    Now if only his receivers would hang onto the football....

    Hey Dan:
    
    Notice that Dr. Midmightbetheremeanshewon't used the statement "might
    be there"!!!  Remember last year when he gauranteed he'd be there and
    throw massive quantities of TD's and NEVER SHOWED HIS FACE!!!
    Now he says he "might be there".  Take it to the bank that there will
    be one Houscum Oilslick fan missing from the game.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    JaKe, Dock was probably busy trying to grow taller.  :-)
    
    Hawk

    Now, now Jake.  Doc finally did show up one weekend.  Naturally he
    wasn't as good as his mouth, and he was a downright embarrasment as a
    teammate a couple of times, but he's certainly welcome to try and
    redeem himself on the field.  Notes is a helpless cause.
    
    Dan

    Look FaKe ... you can't or won't even play tackle ....you've a hell of
    a nerve telling saying anything.
    
    Of course, it is real easy for a Kosar-lover like you to hide behind a
    terminal 500 miles away and talk trash.
    
    Chuck Noll would be proud of you.
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. I'm suppose to go to work Saturday ... if y'all want to take up a
    collection, and offset lost wages, I'll be there ...

    re .318
    
    
    Dan, I never thought you would stoop to an out and out lie, but you've
    done it for sure .... MrT's worst fears about you have been proven
    true.
    
    I seem to remember my team beating your team into a state of utter
    boredom, remember oh Glass Arm ????

    >I seem to remember my team beating your team into a state of utter
    >boredom, remember oh Glass Arm ????
    
    Dumb Doc, real dumb.  Your memory is not unlike a sieve.  We were on
    the same team...
    
    Dan

    	That would be just like Doc to help his own team get slaughtered!

    
    HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Good memory there Dock! HAHA!!
    or should I say..heh heh heh..
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    I gotta give Doc some credit though.  He had the best set of football
    gloves I ever did see.  They were coated with this knobby rubbery stuff
    that really seemed to have an excellent grip.
    
    Of course, this doesn't explain why the ball kept slipping through his
    hands...
    
    Dan

    No Dan, I would have intercepted your floaters, except that the cruel
    hand of gravity would drag that plastic football of yours to Earth
    after 20 yards.
    
    I've seen farts go upwind farther than most of your passes ....
                                      

Actually, as someone who has defended against a Dan Schneider bomb,
I can say that they usually tend to be vastly beyond anything 
approaching the normal agreed upon field of play.

I've never seen Dan float the ball either.  Actually, Dan throws
quite well, which explains his prediliction for the game of
football, and his avoidance of it's simple yet elegant ancestor.

However, I digress. 

Dan was able to take my Wilson Duke and propell it a vast distance.
No matter what the outcome (incomplete, ob, past the end zone) he
still threw it well.

HTH,
'Saw

PS  On a good night after a drinkup, if I've had a hot pastrami and
    pepperoni with a few Newcastles, I can not only fart upwind,
    but the wind hates it so much it'll change direction! 8^)
                                      

�                                       I can not only fart upwind,
�          but the wind hates it so much it'll change direction! 8^)

	NOW  I believe you're a mountainman!!

	I once cut one one during a snow camping trip. It immediately
	froze completely solid. Another group accidently set up a tent on
	top of it. Evidently their lantern in the tent warmed it up
	sufficiently, because suddenly it blew up, tearing down the tent,
	shredding sleeping bags, blowing out the glass on the lantern, and
	causing minor injury to two campers and a very startled sheep!

	Mike JN

    Frank, I'm content with letting Doc dream his little dreams...
    
    Dan

    re .326
    How do you SEE farts go upwind?

    
    A lady in a fancy restaurant let's go a real loud one, and in order to
    cover up her indiscretion says to the waiter standing nearby "Young
    man, I insist you stop that at once!"
      The waiter replies, "Certainly, madam, which way was it headed?"
    
    Dickster
    

    re .325
    
    Saw, he threw it out of the end zone ?
    
    From where, the 2-inch line ?
    
    heh heh heh ...

    re .329
    
    Translation : You conceed my point .....
    
    
    See y'all on the field of battle 11/24 (the first Sat. I'll be back in
    MASS) ......

    
    	Having seen Dan's arm in action, I can say with authority
    	that I've seen better arms on a chair.  Hail, the friggin'
    	altitude couldn't even help those wounded ducks!
    
    	Claybone

We were playing parking lot ball in Giants Stadium parking lot,
two years ago... that was the only time I've played against
Dan.

He was throwing pretty well that day.

Personally, I've never been able to throw a football really well.
My hands are kind of small, and while I get a decent spiral, I 
never get much distance on the thang.

But, I really found that rugby must be my sport.  I've got the knack
of passing that ball really well (yes there is an art to it) and 
know a football feels really tiny to me...


I would say Dan has a decent arm.  Not the best I've ever seen,
but decent.....

'Saw

    re somewhere in the past
    
    Hey Midsomething or other
    
    I'll play tackle flag or any other kind of football you want.
    As for Kosar, go have a glass of Kosar Tea and get your head out of
    your rectum.  Kosar is rapidly showing that he is the most overrated QB
    in the NFL.
    
    BTW, I see your Oilscum are now 1 game BEHIND the STEELERS!!!
    Get used to the view and pray the Oilscum can get a wildcard berth!!
    
    JaKe
    

>>Personally, I've never been able to throw a football really well.
>>My hands are kind of small, and while I get a decent spiral, I
>>never get much distance on the thang.

  'Saw, is it true what they say about guys with small hands?

BIG_hands_chuck.

>  'Saw, is it true what they say about guys with small hands?
    
    Small hands, small...
    
    
    
    ...gloves.
    
    

No, Chuck, quite the opposite....

All the extra protoplasm from my hands went into my BIG


butt 8^)


Seriously, my hands are medium sized I'd guess.  They get the
job done, and I've never noticed a problem, but I just cain't
throw a football really well....  

And as to rugby, well, they may be smaller, but they are good
hands.....

'Saw

    Can you say "frustrating" ?
    
    The Oilers snatch defeat from the wide jaws of victory again. 
    
    What else can you call it when a team gets inside the opponent's 20
    yard line FIVE times, and comes away with two FG's to show for it ?
    
    Or how Curtis Duncan can drop a sure TD pass, and leave the Oilers
    settling for a FG ? Or How Givens can drop a pass on 3rd down with :47
    left in the game ? Then see how Moon doesn't pick up a wide open Allen
    Pinkett until it's too late on the next play ?
    
    AAAAAAARRRRRGGGUHHHH !!!!!!!
    
    The Oiler rushing 'attack' has surrendered, yesterday gaining a measly
    33 yards in 12 carries (2.8 average). The Oiler running game has become
    an embarrasment, and the rushing game - on paper anyway - should be
    much improved (look at the Lions' ability to run in their run and
    shoot) - instead, it is now an embarrasment. And it's beginning to cost
    the Oilers ballgames. 
    
    The defense once again acquitted itself pretty well. With the exception
    of the Rams' first TD drive (helped by 3 defensive penalities), the D
    was great, giving up just over 300 yards of offense, 3 sacks, and only
    17 points.
    
    But right now it is the offense that should have people bothered. White
    was quoted as saying that "We need to stop making excuses for not
    scoring ....." I agree.
    
    Next week, the Oilers have the week off.
    
    DrM

    Dr 00:00 -
    
    Sounds like the Oilers might be able to use the bye next week.
    
    P.S.  C.Hall is doing very well at left guard for SD.
    
    Glenn

    
    
    THE FACKS SPEAK LOUD AND CLEAR.
    
                             W-L   ATT   COMP   PCT   TD   INT
    Kosar v.s. the Oilers    7-2   228    112  49.1   13     6
                                                     5.7%   2.6%
    
    Moon  v.s. the Browns    2-9   327    174  53.2    9    16
      58.1% if you count completions to browns...^   2.8%   4.9%
    
    
    Of course, DrM will probably come up with some great excuse like:
    	1- the browns have had better receivers
    	2- Moon has been hurt during all of the losses
    	3- the browns have had a better supporting cast for kosar,
           but not a better team...
    
    The only problem is... the BOTTOM LINE!  The Browns OWN Warren
    Moon and that means over the past 6 years, they OWN the Oilers...
    

    BOTTOM LINE !!!
    
    OILERS 35 CLOWNS 23
    
    FACK !
    
    MOON 24-33 332 YARDS .... **5** THAT'S RIGHT *FIVE* TOUCHDOWNS !
    
    FACK !
    
    **ZERO** INTERCEPTIONS
    
    FACK !
    
    CLOWNS ARE 2-8.
    
    FACK ! 
    
    GRONOWSKI WILL SPOUT ANCIENT HISTORY AND B.S. TO HIDE FROM HIS SHAME !
    
    FACK !
    
    WARREN MOON IS THE PREMIRE QB IN THE AFC !!!!!
    
    BOTTOM LINE :
    
    THE OILERS KICKED CLEVESCUMS A** IN **CLEVESCUM** !!!!
    
    END OF STORY.
    
    PERIOD.
    
    Dr. Midnight

    
    Bottom LINE -  Browns 9  Moon 3...
    
    

    
    Bottom LINE - the Oilers have never won and AFC Central Title.
    

    
    Bottom LINE - the Bronws have never lost to the Oilers in the playoffs.
    

    re the last few replies by Groaner
    
    Bottom Line-WHO GIVES A RATS A$$ ABOUT THE AINCIENT BULLSH!T!!!! THE
    BROWN(SPOT)S ARE 2-8 AND GOT PASTED YESTERDAY HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!
    
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    re .346
        
>    Bottom LINE - the Bronws have never lost to the Oilers in the playoffs.
 
    WRONG.
    
    1988 WIld Card Game - Houston 23 Clowns 21 - In Clevescum no less.
    
    BOTTOM LINE - You as much about football as Bo does about Hockey !   

    Uh Mr. Moderator, do we really need references to men and showers in
    here?  No offense, but it's getting kind of old...

    
    
    Bottom Line-WHO GIVES A RATS A$$ ABOUT THE AINCIENT BULLSH!T!!!! THE
    SQUEALERS ARE MEDIOCRE AND GOT PASTED YESTERDAY HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The browns may have one more central division titles but what did they
    do with them ?????  Houston still has to catch and pass cinncy whch
    will not be easy seeing that they play buffalo this week.  Its a much
    needed win for the Oilers and Miami would be gratefull if the oilers
    could hand buffalo there 2nd loss.....Im hoping for an Oilers victory
    Houston has blown too many close ones they should be a game ahead of
    cinncy....

    Don't worry, the Oilers will take the Bills - the key is Houston doing
    something with their running game, and scoring inside the 20.
    
    As for the Browns, let's ignore them okay ? I mean, they aren't going
    anywhere, anytime soon - right ?
    
    HAHAHHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!

    
    re: .353
    
    "The browns may have one more central division titles"...
    
    ???????????????
    
    One more division title?  Better go back and check the books.

    The Browns also have more Un-Excellent Losses (ie. Blowouts and
    pastings) in the NFL playoffs than any team in history.
    
    And for all of those Ancient Historians :
    
    
    
    The Oilers have won more titles since 1960 than the Browns.
    
    (If you are into A.H., then read it and weep, otherwise, it shouldn't
    bother you.)

    re. 342
    
    The best part of the 10 minute ticker was seeing the Oilers score over
    and over again, after reading the FACTS( Ancient History) friday
    afternoon.
    
    Does this mean that browns will release Moon's birth certificate from 
    the bank vault??
    
    Do you think that maybe just maybe that history does not repeat itself
    
    Just wondering

    Doc,
    
    So nice to have you back now that the Oilers actually beat someone.
    You are purty funny in your Worn Moon as the best QB in the AFC
    (or was it the league - oh no, that's Randall C., or is Andre Ware??)
    
    Moon is a good QB, but stats don't tell the whole story.  Warren
    is in the upper echelon, but to tell ya the troof, he's really on
    the same level as Bernie Kosar.  I've never figured out why som
    many so called football 'experts' in here have railed against Kosar.
    
    The Oilers will go nowhere, because the run and shoot is not a
    professional offense. 
    
    JD

    JD, you've swapped so many fluids with Schneider that you're now noting
    like him. Tell me, who can challange Moon for AFC supremacy ?
    
    As for the NFC, only a fool would dare challange Montana for his perch,
    at least until the Oilers take out the Niners in SB XXV.
    
    As for the Run and Shoot not being a professional offense, please take
    your Flat Earth beliefs to another note, and sit back and enjoy
    Seahawks "football".
    
    After all, if the R&S isn't a pro offense, then what does that say for
    the defenses that can't stop it ?
    
    Doc

�    After all, if the R&S isn't a pro offense, then what does that say for
�    the defenses that can't stop it ?
    
    Someone have the cumulative W-L records for the Lions, the Oilers, and
    the Falcons (did I leave off any R&Sers?)?

    Let's be fair Keith. The Falcons are not a true R&S team. They use the
    Red Gun from 30-65% of the time. And the Lions have some pitful
    receivers (as anyone watching the Giants game would have noticed).
    
    To me the bottom line is simple - if you don't have talent, it doesn't
    matter if you're playing Run and Shoot or whatever - you'll get waxed.

    Doc,
    
    Look at what the Giants did last week to Detroit,.  20-0.  That's
    a shutout Doc.  Run and Shoot did NOTHING.
    
    Are you enamored to stats, Doc?  Is that why you love Moon so much?
    Why aren't you on the Klingler bandwagon like you were the Ware
    bandwagon?  Moon is no better than Boomer, Marino, Kelley, and that's
    for dang sure.  He happens to play for an offense that lets him
    chuck the ball a zillion times a game.  
    
    The only way the Oilers will get to the Super Bowl is if they scalp
    tickets.  They don't have a chance, Doc.  They may not even win
    the weak sister Central.  We KNOW how bad that division is by listening
    to your rantings - the Brows SUCK, the Steelers SUCK, the Bengals
    SUCK--so it can't be too tough...
    
    Worn Moon will retire with inflated Run and Shoot stats and no
    champeenship ring.
    
    HJD

    re .362, first paragraph:
    
    This year's Giants have shut down a lot of teams with "conventional"
    offenses too...
    
    
    py

    JD, Warren has quite a few "champeenship" rings already.

    
    
    
    re .362

>    Look at what the Giants did last week to Detroit,.  20-0.  That's
>    a shutout Doc.  Run and Shoot did NOTHING.
 
    Yep. And the Lions looked awful. A lack of talent at wideout and
    offensive line will do that to ya.
    
    BTW, I noticed that Tampa Bay got 7 points Sunday. Pittsburgh got 3.
    New England got NOTHING. Hell, even your beloved Jints got only 20
    points at home against a less than awesome Detroit defense.
    
    Conventional offenses did VERY LITTLE.
       
>    Are you enamored to stats, Doc?  Is that why you love Moon so much?
   
    My JD, I guess I must have really scored points on you huh ? That
    objective facade of yours is falling apart faster than Micheal
    Jackson's nose.
    
>    Why aren't you on the Klingler bandwagon like you were the Ware
>    bandwagon?  
    
    Jealous because I correctly predicted that Andre would win the Heisman
    trophy ? Grow up JD. Andre had a monster season and was rewarded well.
    
    BTW, Andre stats aside, he also had a W-L stat of 9-2 his senior
    season, and a 10-3 and Aloha Bowl appearance the year before that.
    
    Impressed ?
    
    BTW, I've watched Andre perform since high school, and know both
    teammates and opponents of his. A pity you can't say that.
    
>    Moon is no better than Boomer, Marino, Kelley, and that's
>    for dang sure.  
    
    Not a bad crowd to be in. Of course Moon has been to the Pro Bowl for
    the last three years. NONE of the above-mentioned QB's can say that.
    
>    He happens to play for an offense that lets him chuck the ball a zillion 
>    times a game.  
 
    He also happens to be good enough to be *allowed* to chuck the ball a
    zillion times a game.   
    
    I know that life with Dave Kreig and Kelly Stoffer has you down JD, but
    you must overcome that. Try conseling.
    
>    We KNOW how bad that division is by listening
>    to your rantings - the Brows SUCK, the Steelers SUCK, the Bengals
>    SUCK--so it can't be too tough...
 
    No, I don't rant that. Your twin brother Gronowski spouts that
    nonsense. Fack is, the only AFC rep that has been competetive in a
    Super Bowl since the Raiders is the Bengals. So I guess the AFC Cental
    ain't all bad.
       
>    Worn Moon will retire with inflated Run and Shoot stats and no
>    champeenship ring.
 
    Is that what you really want JD ? Heh heh heh ... dream on.
    
    Dr M
    
    p.s. JD, you MUST do better than you have been. You're not dealing with
    Schneider anymore. That juvanile attempt to emulate Gronowski is doomed
    to fail. Come on, I know you can do better than that ....   
    HJD

    How could I forget.... Warren has 5 Grey Cup rings. 1978-82.
    
    Five championships in a row. 
    
    And let's not forget the Rose Bowl he won in 78, and was selected MVP
    to boot.
    
    JD, go do some let work .... you're losing definition.

    Q: How can a 5-5 team be 2 point favorites over a 9-1 team ????
    
    A: When the odds makers think that the Moon will be as fortunate 
       against the Bills.
    
    
    - B. Smith and C. Bennet will have Moon seein' stars.
    - As of last week, Jim Kelly had the highest rating in the AFC.
    - Buffalo 31 - Houston 17. YHIF!!
    
    

    Doc,
    
    Big Deal, five Grey Cup championships.  That's RICH. R*I*C*H*
    HawHawHaw.  That and six bucks can get Warren into the movie theatre.
    
    Doc, the Oilers are 5-5.  Now, I'm not a math wiz, but I pretty
    sure that .500.  And they are going to the Super Bowl?  Rich, simply
    rich.
    
    Now Doc - I wouldn't be getting on anyone's case about being objective
    if I was you, now would i?  Can you say Celtics?  Browns?  Steelers?
    Major Harris?  Not very objective track record you have Doc.
    
    Now, did Andre go 9-2, or did Houston go 9-2?  Isn't Klingler 9-1??
    Hmmmmmmm.
    
    I don't care if Ware won or not.  I think he was a creation of inflated
    stats, picked up in classless pilings on like against SMU.  Big
    deal, Doug Flutie, Pat Sullivan, Gary Beban and John Huarte are
    also inflated stat passers who won the 'coveted' Heisman.
    
    The run and shoot won't win any super bowls, of that I'm sure. 
    It will result in a lot of 35-31 games that stress only one discipline
    - offense (esp. passing) instead of a balanced offense,defense and
    special teams.   
    
    Bills will beat the Oilers, and mighty Houston will be under .500
    again.   
    
    JD

�    Big Deal, five Grey Cup championships.  That's RICH. R*I*C*H*
�    HawHawHaw.  That and six bucks can get Warren into the movie theatre.
    
    I think it may get Warren into the Hall of Fame, complete with all the
    trimmings.  Are any CFL'ers in the HoF?
    
    Don't take it so hard, Doc.  JD will probably be here at the end of the
    season saying that he really likes Houston and Moon and he was only
    tryin' to yank your chain (see notes on ND) ;^).

    Doc's Soilers have been going to the Stupor Bowl for the last 4 years.
    Coincidentally, he's been participating in here about the same number
    of years.
    
    Mike

    Forget the raw stats-- Moon was second in the AFC quarterback rating
    system before last Sunday's fantastic game-- and that system doesn't
    reward for extra attempts and yardage.  Without question, Moon is 
    having a very fine season, while some of the old AFC standbys (Kosar, 
    Elway, Esiason, and to an extent Marino) have fallen by the wayside.  
    
    In the college rating system, Klingler isn't even in the top five 
    while facing some very weak competition, while I believe Ware was at 
    or near the top last year.  
    
    In my opinion, there's nothing the run-and-shoot can't accomplish if
    there's a defense for the team on the other side of the ball, just as 
    has been true throughout the history of football.  (This is the major 
    problem I pointed out with the Houston Cougars, by the way, not the 
    run-and-shoot.  Other than a bush-league coach, that is...)  It'd be 
    nice if some of these teams could call off the dogs and go to a 
    two-back set with some basic running plays when they get a big lead, 
    though.  I don't understand what's so complicated about that, and even 
    if it does get in the way of a few coaches' egos, it would win more 
    games (like that one Detroit blew to Washington a week ago).
    
    glenn
    

    Mac,
    
    I've never rooted for Houston and I never will. IF CFL stats count,
    then perhaps Doug Flutie will have a chance at gettng into the Hall
    of Fame.
    
    Doc,
    
    Oh yeah - I don't root for the Seahawks, never have.  Just because
    I live here makes me a fan?  Well, applying that logic, then you
    MUST be a Pats fan, a Broons fan, and of course, a Celtics fan.
    
    Glenn,
    
    Moon is a good QB.  I just don't feel he's the best in the world.
    Simms is the top rated QB in the league - I'm a Giants fan, and
    I feel Phil has been underrated his whole career, but I don't feel
    that mere stats and ratings make him the best.   
    
    Not to worry, the Oilers will lose a game, Doc will disaspper, and
    then show up when they win again...
    
    JD

    
    Joe Montana is the best QB in the league today, bar none.
    
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    re Moon:
    
    Another way of looking at it -- how many QBs who finished college in
    1978 are even still active in the NFL, never mind at or near the top in
    every statistical category?  
    
    
    py

    This is an exciting notes file as far as Det,Atl and Houston being
    run and shoot teams there records are 11-19 and for traditional
    offenses New England, Cleveland and Phoenix are 5-25.......You cant
    group teams together like that and say that theres a problem with the
    type of offense they run.  As far as the AFC CENTRAL Division they 
    do anything but S#$K.  They have 3 teams at .500 the only other
    division with this much competition is the NFC East.  Cinncy Houston
    Pitt and cleveland have the capability to beat anyteam on any givin
    day.....Id rate them as the 2nd toughest division in the league...
    If you look at the other division each one has 2 teams that are basic
    jokes...As far As Warren Moon his team sits at .500 right now, they
    lost SF on Oct 7 24-21 in a game that they should have won...too many
    dropped passes and turnovers.  And this was against the best...They
    then lost too the jets 17-12 and they should have been in the end zone
    three times and they had alot of dropped passes, and a week later they
    lost to the rams 17-13.....They should easily be at at least 7-3 with
    no fault going to the QB.....!!!!! Houston should take the central and
    go on to meet Buffalo in the AFC Championship Game...
    								Mike

    re .369
    
    Thanks Keith, and I know that JD is suffering from terminal boredom. I
    think JD has problems with Moon being considered a superior QB to Phil 
    Simms, and the fack that the Giants put people to sleep when watching
    them play (thank God for John Madden).
    
    Anyhow, JD'd facade as an objective noter is being blown out of the
    water. I never piously said that I held all teams in equal esteem. Only
    JD would prostitute himself in that fashion.
    
    Now go pay the pimp willya ?
    

    re .373
    
    Nope Steve, I said that Moon was the premire QB in the **AFC**, and I
    also said that Montana was Top Dog until someone knocked him and the
    Niners off in the SB.

    Yo DoC
    
    I don't hold every team in pious esteem. Prove it, if you can, but
    you can't.  Doc,  Simms is as good a QB as Moon, IMO.  He's passed
    for 4,000 yards in a season, he's passed for over 500 yards in a
    game.  He was MVP of the Super Bowl, in one of the greatest
    performances a QB ever had - the type of performance that Warren
    Moon dreams about.  However, Ol Warren's days in champeenship games
    ended when he slipped south of the border.   Now Doc, the Jints
    are 10-0 by playing hellacious defense and special teams, and solid
    offense.  If the Oilers were 10-0, you'd be absolutely unbearable.
    
    And remember, I never said Warren is a bad QB.  You, as usual, can't
    handle a slight taste of your own medicine.   
    
    As for Mike Brooks - thanks for the laugh.  The AFC central the
    2nd toughest division in the league?  Hawhawhawhawhaw.   
    
    Paul - Moon is one year older than Simms. (who was drafted in the
    1979 draft).
    
    Doc, you are funny.  
    
    JD

>>     <<< Note 37.366 by EARRTH::BROOKS "Detroit - no place for wimps !" >>>
>>                         -< Warren "The Winner" Moon >-

>>    How could I forget.... Warren has 5 Grey Cup rings. 1978-82.
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    Five championships in a row. 
    
>>    And let's not forget the Rose Bowl he won in 78, and was selected MVP
>>    to boot.                           ^^
                                         ^^
    
    Hey Doc,
    
    I think there were other individuals involved in both instances above
    or is Warren Spoon just superman and played these games all by
    himself??
    
    JaKe
    
    JD, go do some let work .... you're losing definition.

    

    JD
    
    Disregard that last line in -.1
    
    Just fouled up using the editor!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    re: 37.366 by LOWIQ::BROOKS "I'm a bandwagon jumper!"
    
    Grey Cup???   What is that, a big time wrestling trophy?  1982?
    8 seasons ago?  What...  living in the past?  Moon has never
    won anything of significance in this country.  
    
    Hey, has he ever won a football championship in Japan?  Romania?
    
    
    

    Well another week has passed and the afc central still has 3 teams over
    .500, the only other division is nfc east....I dont know how anyone
    with any knowledge of football cant agree that the AFC Central isnt
    one of the Toughest divisions,  The worst team in the Division is
    CLEVELAND.  What other Entire Division do you consider to be all tough
    teams (Thats entire division)  NFC Central has Tampa Bay and Detriot,
    2 powerhouses right and the AFC West has New Orleans and Atlanta,
    although atlanta should have a better record (They dont).  With 2
    SH#$ teams in your division you can almost count on at least 3-4 W..
    Who in the central can you count on for a Win...???  No use arguing,
    Hopefully Moon will through for 4 TD's tonight that with 2 rushing TDs
    and a field goal will make it Houston 45  Buffalo 34  Go Oilers....
    (Not a buffalo fan as you can proberbly tell)...
    
    								Mike

    The Oilers have to win tonight to be over .500.  When they lose,
    they'll be 5-6.
    
    	--dan'l

    But they are at .500 right now....Which is all I stated, They are not
    below .500 right now are they ? I didnt think so.....And I wouldnt put
    money on Buffalo if I was you. .....

    Re: Grey Cup
    
    Rock, I think that's something catcher's wear.
    
    hope this helps,
    Mike

    Hey JD, when praising the Jints record - you should make note of da
    fack that they play Dallas twice, the Cards twice, and Detroit to boot.
    
    I hear that they played a real team yesterday - what happened to them ?
    
    BTW, how 'bout that Run and Shoot on Thanksgiving Day ???
    
    Heh heh heh ....

    
    The savior has come...  Can anyone tell me what the Oilers record
    is since Moon arrived...  How many division titles they have won...
    and what their playoff record is...  I know they were 3-13 and 5-11
    during his first two seasons...  IMPRESSIVE....
    
    

    Cant you just agree that Moon is one of the Premeir QB's in the League
    The 2 top AFC QB's go Head to Head tonight.....Run and Shoot VS
    Standard offense...Im looking forward to it, I usally dont watch the
    full monday night games but tonights is a must see......

>But they are at .500 right now....Which is all I stated, 
    
    
�Note 37.382             The Official Houston Oiler Topic              382 of 388
�VLNVAX::MBROOKS                                      15 lines  26-NOV-1990 07:14
�                  -< AFC Central 3 teams over .500 ??? STILL >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�    Well another week has passed and the afc central still has 3 teams over
    �    .500, the only other division is nfc east                      ^^^^
    
    
    With this kind of logic I can see why you're a Houston fan.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    re: -1
    
    He's a houston fan because he's one of the Brooksie Twins (TM).
    I wonder what its like being related to George Wallace... er
    I mean George Brooks.
    

    I guess I do have to go back to 1st grade math, I didnt know that
    being at .500 was less then .500, but if both of you very inteligent
    people say that .500 is less then .500 then I must be wrong...Ill
    sign up for that math class when Denver gets a winning record, or
    when the 3 run and shoot teams have a worse record than the patriots
    clevland and denver which ever comes first...Houston is still in the
    playoff picture, and I perfer a QB that doesnt choke in the SB 3 times
    

    OK, Mike, I was wrong.  You seem to demonstrate your math knowledge. 
    Instead, go back to kindergarten and learn the meaning of the word
    "over."
    
    	--dan'l

    Id rather have you explain the word Under....This is getting boring,
    by the way what teams do you root for (Obviously not Houston).......
    Or are you just a overall basher (Just Curious)

    Oh, I'm quite well armed, sir.  As most everyone in here knows, I don't
    blindly 'root' for anyone.  Instead, I worship the team that spanked
    your Fumble-and-Squirt team 20-9 back on September 16.
    
    Looking forward to a good game tonight. 
    
    	--dan'l

    < Note 37.393 by VLNVAX::MBROOKS >
    	      -< Getting Bored Arguing with an UnArmed Apponent >-
    
    
    This is truely amazing.  In note 37.282, you made a statement that
    three (that is the number after 2) teams from the AFC Central were
    "over .500."  Some nice person points out your error and you then
    state that you previously said "not less than .500," contrary to
    the written word in your previous reply.  That same person gets
    defensive and, through the magic of words, states your ineptness
    of the obvious.  You come back with the above subject line, thus
    firmly establishing in the minds of this noter, that you don't have
    a clue as to what is an "UnArmed Apponent."
    
    Have a nice day 8^)
    
    The Wizard

    
    re: .395
    
    What do you expect from a guy related to DrM?
    

    Pittsburg is a very good team and with any luck they will be in a
    3-way tie after tonight, although they are 1-2 in the division and
    have to play cinncy next week (A must win)  I enjoy watching pitt
    play as much as I enjoy Houston but you cant compare the 2 QB's 
    maybe 5 years from now if buddy can keep improving...But right now
    its more exciting watching a Moon in the Pocket then buddy.  Id like
    to see pitt and houston in the playoffs although I dont think pitt
    would go as far...

I don't think Buffalo is as good as their record might lead you to 
believe. If the Soilers (tm) don't spank the Bills in the House Of Pain,
Worn Moon can forget about anything in the way of a Div Title, let alone
a SuperBowel appearance.

Mike JN

    I dont usally spend too much time reply to notes (Now I remember why)
    but this one is fun, but to make some people out there happy (and to
    get them to stop replying) I will restate my Statement here we go
    (Please correct grammer and spelling if necessary thank professors)
    
    The AFC Central Division Has 3 teams that records are > or = to .500
    The only other division that has this much competition is the NFC
    east.
    
    I hope to god that I have not made any spelling/grammer/math errors
    Im sure Ill find out.  Have a nice day :-) ...
    
    (houston is still going to be in the playoffs and moon is still one
    of the best)....

                     Sorry.... Couldn't resist ;'D

                                Mike JN

    re .390
    
    Another day ... another a** kicking for the Browns .....
    
    How was the game yesterday Paul ?
    
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHHAHAAAAAAA !!!!!!

    re .398
    
    You're right. Cincy is cooperating by losing another home game they
    shoulda won, so Houston had better make a move.
    
    This game is a good benchmark for both teams. Buffalo has not played or
    beaten a team with a winning record since getting hammered back in Week
    2. Houston is playing a top defense, and a tough, balanced offense.
    Kelly and Moon are both hotter than hell right now.
    
    To me, the problem is simple - if Houston can score inside the 20,
    they'll win this game. If not, theyll have another frustrating loss
    where they outgain their opponent by a signfigant margin.
    
    The Oilers' rushing game looked it's best in 4 weeks last week, but
    they have yet to even coming within shouting distance of a 100 yard
    game from a running back. Tonight would be a great time to start.
    
    Doc

    What a game, what a QB....The score was a little closer than I expected
    Maybe the Oilers were holding the score down, no I have to give Buff
    credit thay played a good game, had to love the 40+ yrd pass to drew
    hill in the 3rd qtr, I think they spotted it on the 5 inch line.....
    
    Great Win by the Oilers and we now have a 3-way tie in the central
    and Miami now claims 1st place in the AFC East.  
    
    Houston Plays Seattle next week, regreatable its at seattle, not a gift
    by any means but a win would put them in a 2-way tie for the division
    title seeing that Cinncy and Pittsburg play this week at pitt, I hope
    its Pitt and Houston tied for 1st in th central...
    
    								Mike

    The AFC Central is going to go down to the last week of the season. 
    And I don't have any idea who is in the driver's seat.  Here are the
    remaining schedules:
    
    Houston		Pittsburgh		Cincinnati
    =======		==========		==========
    at Seattle		Cincinnati		at Pittsburgh
    Cleveland		New England		San Francisco
    at Kansas City	at New Orleans		at L.A. Raiders
    at Cincinnati	Cleveland		Houston
    Pittsburgh		at Houston		Cleveland
    
    All three teams have some tough games ahead of them.  It looks like
    Pittsburgh has the easiest road, but if the offense doesn't show up
    that could be a different story.  Cincinnati continues to ride the
    win/loss roller coaster.  Houston has some really tough away games.
    
    It's going to be fun.
    
    	--dan'l

    Id say Houston has to win the next 2 weeks to stay in the race,
    they have to play KC, Cinncy and Pitt to close out the season.
    Nothing easy about any of those games, the central is going to
    be the hot race down the stretch (As far as divsion champs go)
    
    Sundays Hot games	Philly VS Buff	+   Cinncy VS Pitt

    Hey Mike, are you so enamored with Moon that you're not even going to
    mention Lorenzo White's contribution?  What a great game he had. 
    Buffalo's defense was bewildered with all that running.
    
    The run and shoot looked terrific in action last night mainly because
    of the RUN part of it.  Someone's gonna figure out how to stop that
    offensive abomination sometime soon.  If I had my guess, it will be 
    Mr. Wyche.  
    
    One thing I did note, however, is that Houston just ain't as much fun
    to hate now that Jerry's gone.  When White and Moon were moving up and
    down the field I just admired it rather than screaming and shouting
    like I used to when Ol' Glanville was there.
    
    	--dan'l

Good game. I knew Houston could pull it off.

Now I'm fully expecting Houston, Pittsburgh, and Cincinatti to all end
up 8-8
	........ bring on the tie-breakers!

Mike JN

    re .406
    
    White had 125 yards on 22 carries, and caught 85 yards worth of passes.
    Easily the best game of his young carrer, and a very well-timed
    performance, given the hue and cry in Houston forWhite's benching in
    favor of Allen Pinkett.
    
    But I'm not suprised, that is the way the R&S is supposed to work. If
    The Lions with their medoicre WR's can open the field for Barry
    Sanders, then there is no reason why Houston can't give their backs big
    holes to run in. Buffalo never, and I mean NEVER came close to stopping
    Houston on offense. 
    
    A very big win for Houston, moreso than the Cincy win, because of
    Buffalo's defense, which is certainly much better than the Bungles.
    
    And Dan'l, don't think of the R&S as a gimmick ofense. It is NOT
    scattershot, and it is NOT easy to figure, and it IS a basically sound
    offense.
    
    To stop it you must :
    
    1) Have a good pass rush. No passing offense, I don't care what scheme
    you use, can stand up to a strong rush.
    
    2) Have 4 Db's who can cover receivers. Last night Leonard Smith had to
    cover people like Ernest Givens. No contest. And the Oilers have not 2,
    or 3, but FIVE wideouts who can start for almost any other NFL team.
    
    And that's it. Plain and simple.
    
    More later ....
    
    The Doc

    Man, the only person more silent in this topic than Whitehair and
    Gronowski HAS to be Mr Football Expert, John Devlin.
    
    He must be at the butcher shop, trying to get a good deal on crow.
    
    
    HAHHAHAHA  !!

    Hey, Dock, how 'bout those Septicks?
    
    Heh heh heh heh.......
    
    Hawk

    
    Doc, funny how you just ignored my request of posting the following:
    
    	Houston's regular season record since Moon arrived
        Houston's playoff record since Moon arrived
    
    	While you're at it, you might as well do the same for Kosar.
    
    Bottom line... you keep saying how awesome Moon is, lets look at 
    his record.  I figure, if everyone in here believe Kosar sucks and
    is to blame for Cleveland's demise, he must have been responsible
    for the 5 playoff appearances and the division titles... I mean,
    this will be the first year in Bernie's career that he hasn't made
    the playoffs...
    
    Bottom line #2 - you sip at hoop!  You got faced three straight
    times last night on D!  Pick it up buddy!

    What has New England done that Houston and Cleveland have never done?
    
    FACT: Make it to the Super Bowl.
    
    � courtesy of MNF's stat last night showing all teams that have never
    played in a Super Bowl.

    You cant just look at a Teams Record and Determine how good a QB is
    what if Joe Montana Had the New England Patriots O-line and Defense.
    Then he would su$% right.   Who has more Yrd per Year on there career
    as well as completions Td's and those stats.  And when looking at
    these stats you have to also look at his stats from the CFL.  You may
    say that the competition is less in the cfl, that means that the
    recievers catch less passes and fumble more and the O-line gives a
    QB less time to throw.  And with all that Moon could still win 5 rings
    and thros for 20,000+ yrds....I dont follow the CFL and dont know 
    exactly what moon was capable when he played there but from what I
    read he was awsome there as well as the NFL.....Did he reach the
    300+yrds last night.  Last I heard in the 3rd he had something like
    180+yrds......
    							Mike

    Anyone hear about Moon's possible bonus last night?  It is in his
    contract that if he finishes as one of the top 3 QB's, his bonus is the
    average of the 3's salary/2.  We're talking >$1M right now since he's
    3rd.
    
    Mike

    Actually, what I heard was:
    
    His bonus is the average of the 3 top QB's salaries minus his own.  
    
    Al Michaels said it a little too fast for me to follow.  When he said
    it was over one million though, that sounded odd...or else Moon doesn't
    make that much.
    
    But I was an English major in college so me and numbers don't get along
    so well anyway.
    
    	--dan'l

2 things happened to make this contract clause worthwhile to Moon and
possibly expesnive to the Oilers. The first is that salaries have gone up
a lot very recently. Houston did not expect a $3 million contract when
they signed Moon. The second is that they never expected him to be one of
the top 3 rated QBs. He finished 4th, a fractional percentage behind
Everett last year so the Oilers could see this coming. Last night's
effort, coupled with Sims and Joe not doing well really helped Moon's
cause.

TTom

    Moon finished 17-22 for exactly 300 yards, and no picks.
    
    BTW, Moon has topped 300 yards passing for the 4th straight game, just
    one short of the NFL record, held by Marino.
    
    As for the bonus, .415 had it right. The Oilers never expected Moon to
    get into the top three - especially if you're throwing the ball 30
    times a game. But Moon has been phenomanal this year. And if yu throw
    out the 5 drops a game Oiler receivers were averaging in the first 8
    weeks .... wow .....

    Moon has been having a very nice year, no doubt.
    
    But the Oilers sealed their fate on this bonus deal with Moon when they
    hired Pardee and allowed him to install the run-and-shoot.
    
    If ever an offense was designed for the rotis freaks, it was this one.
    
    I'll bet Marino wishes he, too, had four wideouts to throw to.
    
    Bob Hunt

Just in case poeple didn't notice...

Jim Kelly running a conventional offense threw over 35 times last night...

Moon running the R & S threw only around 25 times last I looked. He had only 9
Pass attempts in the first half. 

Unless the defenses of the NFL start keeping players on their rosters that can
defend the little WR's one on one the R & S will be a formidable weapon for
quite some time. When you run it to perfection as the Oilers did last night 
against a team that doesn't have the speed to keep up it is virtually 
unstoppable.

Although I was hoping the bills would cover last night I watched the Oiler
offense in awe of what they were doing to a good defense. It was a total 
mismatch. Lucky for the Bills their offense was up to the task of matching the
Oilers with time consuming drives. 

John Elway should have taken notes last night watching two QB's who can both
steam the ball into receivers and also throw the touch passes when they were
required. 

all in all a great game....


Metz

    Still haven't heard from the Mouse Davis of SPORTS JD ......
    

    If you know and understand the game, you'll also understand that Dan
    Marino is the premeire QB in the AFC.
    
    Dan

    
    Dan, in order for a qb to be "premier", wouldn't he/she(who knows?)
    have to posses good mobility? I would consider Marino, the premier
    passer of the AFC. He has little mobility and is in-effective when
    flushed out of the pocket, but as a pure passer there have been
    few better.
    
    
    
    Steve 

    I agree that Marino is far from nimble in the pocket, but his passing
    ability (quick drop, quick release, deadly accuracy, excellent touch)
    has effectively eliminated the need about 99% of the time.  If he was
    mobile too, the game wouldn't be fair.
    
    Dan

And if Dan Marino played for the Jets, Dan would be sporting a woodie.

8^)

    I hate him, but I appreciate him at the same time.  Not really hate,
    but I'm sick of his whining about calls all the time (the Shula
    influence) and his amazing effectiveness.
    
    Dan

    Re: -1
    
    Kinda like Magic Johnson!

    
    Dan, I wouldn't go as far as saying 99% of the time. Marino
    is lucky he has a short drop, and a quick release not to mention
    a good pass blocking offensive line. Could you imagine Marino
    on the Pats? He'd be a pretzel by now! Actually I'm glad the 
    Pats passed him by in the draft, we all got to see how good the
    man is and one of the main reasons is because he's playing for 
    a coach and an organization that has a clue.
    
    
    Steve

    The pacakge on Moon :
    
    Effective in the pocket, can throw on the run. Can run when he has to.
    Audibles more than any QB in league (that tends to happen with a dunce
    like Glanville), tough, fantastic arm. Can throw any type of pass.
    
    In other words, Moon can do anything Marino can, and do it on the run as
    well.

>    In other words, Moon can do anything Marino can, and do it on the run as
>    well.
    
    You're four months and a few days early for April Fools Day.  Or
    did you mean to put that in the Sports Jokes topic?
    
    	--dan'l

    >In other words, Moon can do anything Marino can, and do it on the run as
    >well.
    
    Doc, I prefaced my remark that the reviewer would need to know and
    understand the game.  Your remarks above leave you out.
    
    Relative to Marino, Moon is scatter-armed, misreads the defense much
    more often, has nowhere near the quick release.  These qualities are
    each much more important than his only advantage, which is mobility.
    
    Dan

    >Dan, I wouldn't go as far as saying 99% of the time. Marino
    >is lucky he has a short drop, and a quick release not to mention
    >a good pass blocking offensive line.
    
    Lucky?  It's pure skill.  Marino has made his offensive line effective,
    not the other way round.  They only have to hold their blocks a split
    second, and then a pass goes whizzing by their heads.
    
    >Could you imagine Marino on the Pats?
    
    Nightmare-city for me.  They'd have a Superbowl win, and be a perenial
    AFC East powerhouse unless the Sullivan clan could have destroyed
    everything.  Given the deep talent of the mid-'80s Pats, particularly
    on defense, Marino's effect on the Pats would be a lot like Bird's on
    the Celtics.
    
    Dan

    Doc,
    
    I haven't read through  everything, however I've been away on business
    - still am, in fact, without access to a terminal.  Anyway, you of all
    people should never accuse someone of disappearing or ducking from
    notes.  You generally are seen when one of your myriad of favorite
    teams does something big.  Doc, I'll tell ya, the run and shoot is
    fruit cake football and will never get a team a Super Bowl champeenship
    - unless the whole NFL turns into a bunch of numbnut ballerinas like
    Houston and Detroit.   Houston still almost blew the game (at home, I
    might add) and won't be found playing at the end of January.  Like I've
    said before, I don't consider Moon a bad QB, but not a GOD either (like
    you tend to believe).  
    
    Houston plays in a creampuff division, plays a wimpy brand of ball that
    is better suited to flag football or touch football, and is coached by
    a guy  slimier than Jimmy Johnson and Lou Holtz, a guy who runs up
    scores in college against hapless opponents, so that his overhyped QB
    can get the stats to win a trophy.  
    
    Moon has thrown the ball a couple of hundred times more than most other
    QBs - I certainly hope that he's got more completions and TD's then the
    others.  The run and shoot is perfectly suited for Houston - baby blue
    uniforms playing in a frigging dome on carpet, with a nifty fight song
    and wimply fans with pom  poms.  
    
    While Detroit is no place for wimps, it seems that Houston is ground
    zero for WUPPIES!.
    
    Expecting a woof woof arf arf reply from ya Doc....
    Have a good one...
    
    JD

    So JD, how DO you like your crow ?????
    
    
    re .431
    
    Don't worry about Dan, this is the man who tried (pathetically) to
    convince SPORTS that Joe Namath was God with a football helmet ...

    
    
    Still waiting for Houston's overall record since Moon arrived...
    Since I'm sure it's well below .500, I'm sure it will never
    get posted.
    

    Do c,
    
    What crow?   Heck, if you ate all the crow backlogged from the inane 
    diatribes you've put forward, you'd rid the world of the species.
    
    Doc, like I've said before, you'll disappear when the Oilers lose and
    don't win the champeenship, and suddenly become a fan of whoever is in
    first.
    
    The run and shoot is girly  mon football.  Heck, it even cheapens Barry
    Sanders IMO (and I'm a Sanders fan bigtime) because he never runs real
    running plays, just wimply draws and stuff....
    
    JD

    >Don't worry about Dan, this is the man who tried (pathetically) to
    >convince SPORTS that Joe Namath was God with a football helmet ...
    
    I didn't try to convince anyone of anything.  But when it comes to some
    topics I don't mind letting experts try to.  Guys like John Madden,
    Bear Bryant, Bill Walsh and Vince Lombardi agree with my opinions about
    Joe Namath.  On the other side of the ledger, we have guys like, um,
    George Brooks.
    
    And that's about all I need to say.
    
    Dan

    I sort of se a pattern here, Doc.  A certain Brown(spot)s(tm) fan whose
    name will remain unmentioned has been missing from these files during
    most of the 'Spots 2-9 debacle of a season.
    
    You, in his absence, are starting to sound VERY VERY much like him when
    you talk of Wormedand Mooned, only he talked about Bernice.
    
    Next thing you know, you'll be in his fan club and he'll be sending you
    his soiled jocks as souvineers.  
    
    What's up, so you miss <name withheld to protect the innocent> so you
    feel you have to make up for him?????
    
    Moon is a decent QB but he's never shown greatness.  My Grandmother
    threw for tons of yards in the Run & Shoot once.  When the Oilscum can
    put points on the board, give me a wake-up call.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Run & Shoot is a gimmick.  Teams utilizing this offense will win
    games, but not the BIG one.  And, if more teams convert to this style,
    then the overall performance will drop because defenses will be geared
    more towards stopping it, and will have more experience against it.
    
    Ya gotta have a running game to win the BIG one.  Maybe not to get into
    the SB, but to capture the title.  Even great passing teams can't go
    all the way without the run.  And, I mean really running, not glitzy
    plays, or a wishbone type.
    
    Maybe it is an OLD adage, but it still holds true for the most part.
    Establishing a running game opens up the passing game.  Remember, three
    things can happen in a pass play, and two of them are BAD.
    
    Lee

    Re: Doc sounding like Hal
    
    Has anyone ever seen them at the same time in the same place?
    
    Mike

    
    If Moon is such a great QB, the rest of the team must really SIP!
    They are 6-5...  Hardly a great team...

    You can't use team records to determine whether a QB is great or
    not.  Houston is 6-5, LA Rams are 4-7, Cincinatti is 6-5, while
    both KC Chiefs and LA Raiders are 7-4.  Would *YOU* say that Shroeder
    and [insert KC QB name here] are better than Moon, Everett or Esiason.
    I sure as h*ll won't.
    
    You can be the greatest QB in history.  Always on target with the
    passes, whether touch or rocket, be able to scramble with the best,
    but if your team stinks, then you will lose more than you win. 
    Period, no question about it.
    
    The Wizard

    Speaking of the greatest quarterback in history...Joe Montana is the Qb
    that all other quarterbacks want to be when they grow up.
    
    
    Fan of the World Champion SF Forty Niners
    

>    You can be the greatest QB in history.  Always on target with the
>    passes, whether touch or rocket, be able to scramble with the best,
>    but if your team stinks, then you will lose more than you win. 
>    Period, no question about it.
    
    Exactly!  Someone still has to catch those passes!  Someone has to run
    with the ball after getting the handoff.
    
    It starts with the QB, but doesn't end there.
    
    Mike
    

    
    Otto Graham - 10 seasons... 10 times leading his team to the league
    championship game - 7 times winning the league championship.  The
    greatest winner at the QB position of all-time.  When he retired,
    the Browns dropped.

    Did that make Tony Rice the best college QB last year?

    What happen to the Oilers recievers, did not get to see the game but
    the Highlights where terible....  Moon played about average he was
    24-38 for 232yrds 1td and 1int, Krieg was 16-27 for 168yrd and 1int.
    In terms of which QB played the best game there no contest.  I saw
    2 plays in the highlights where the Oilers recievers handed the ball
    to the seattle defense....Either one would have won this game for
    Houston.....Typical example of when the ball is bouncing against you
    
    They still hold the last wildcard spot, the only team I was more
    dissapointed in was The Colts.....
    
    							Mike

    Is it a coincidence that R&S teams usually have a high number of
    turnovers and sacks?

    >Is it a coincidence that R&S teams usually have a high number of
    >turnovers and sacks?
    
    Not in my opinion.  If you throw 1 interception with every 20 passes
    and throw and extra 160 passes on the season (10 per game) than
    the NFL average, I would expect 8 more interceptions.  You would
    also expect to see a lot of sacks, because there are a larger
    percentage of pass plays and it is VERY difficult to achieve a sack
    on a run play.
    
    The Wizard

    
    Also, the lack of a 2nd back for blocking will allow additional sacks 
    with the R&S.
    
    /Jeff

    Well, a few weeks ago Doc was chastising me about how all I had
    was Seattle to root for (even though I am not a 'hawks fan).  And
    how terrible Krieg and company are.  Hey Doc - 13-10 Seahawks in
    OT - haw haw haw.  Boy, you certainly must love shoe leather, you
    chew on it enough.
    
    jd

    The raiders won 23-20 ?????   Houston knocked themselves out of the
    playoff picture,,,Could be a hard climb back in....
    
    Hate to say it but it doesnt look good, Ill have to check out the
    remanding schedule's but Miami and either LA or KC have the # 1,2
    wildcard spots pretty much locked....The fight for the 3rd is
    getting wild....
    								Mike

    Nice end-of-regulation-time use of the clock by the best AFC QB 
    yesterday.  Moon lost the game for them.
    
    Not much left to fight for in Houston or Pittsburgh with the AFC West
    starting its charge.  
    
    But Cleveland still lost, so it wasn't a totally bad day.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    re: .452
    
    Atleast the Browns will have one of the top 3 picks to show for not
    making the playoffs...  What will the Steelers have to show for not
    making the playoffs (AGAIN)!  You'd figure with all those low finishes
    (and the high picks and easy schedules that come with them), the Steelers
    would be able to put something together already.

    re .453
    Geez Paul, you're really stretching, aren't you?  

>    What will the Steelers have to show for not
>    making the playoffs (AGAIN)!  You'd figure with all those low finishes
>    (and the high picks and easy schedules that come with them), the Steelers
>    would be able to put something together already.
    
    Excuse me?  I remember Pittsburgh WINNING in the playoffs last year.
    
    As for low finishes, I don't think so.  There were many teams lower
    than Pittsburgh in the 80's with the Steelers picking somewhere in the
    middle of the draft a majority of those years.
    
    But, succumbing to your reasoning, you'd think that with as much as the
    Browns sucked in the 70's and early 80's and all those great draft
    picks they had, Cleveland would have won at least an AFC championship
    by now.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .450
    
    It is amazing how :
    
    1) JD now claims the SeaChickens as his own.
    
    2) JD finds the time to show up in the conference after an Oilers loss,
    although he was "buried with work" after the double-helping of crow he
    ingested lasted week ....
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!

    re .435
    
    JD you are hardly, shall we say, a poster child for American Manhood.
    
    No more so than MrT is a spokesman for Plate Reduction.
    
    So pleeeeeese stop this ranting about how 'girly mon' the Run and Shoot
    is ....... you're killing me !

    re .447-.449
    
    Rember this too, in the R&S, the QB seldom takes a deep drop, therefor,
    and sacks will be for less yardage than normal. I remember when Jim
    Kelly played for the Gamblers, and he was sacked 75 times. But the
    average yards lost was about 4-5, as opposed to 7-8 for a conventional
    offense.
    
    I'll talk more about the R&S at a reasonable hour, but I think there
    are several misconceptions in this note about the offense.
    
    Doc

    re .452
    
    I was wondering about that play. I heard that the last play of
    regulation took 13 seconds to get off. What the hell happened ?
    
    I managed to see a little of the 2nd quarter, and it looked to me that
    Moon was not nearly as sharp as he could have been. He was missing
    reads all over the place.
    
    Definitely a disappointing loss. And it might be a killer one. Houston
    plays Cleveland at home, but has road games against Cincy and KC, and a
    home brawl against the Steelers. 
    
    The Oilers have hoed themselves one hell of a long row .... :-(
    
    Not only will we see the R&S tested in cold weather, but we will see if
    Pardee's coaching has had a positive impact on the team. Houston once
    again lost a game it should have won, and the losses to Pitt, Sea. and
    the Jets will haunt this team for a long time.
    
    It's time for them to suck it up on offense. The defense allowed just
    280 yards of offense to Seattle, so theycan't be blamed. 
    
    The fault once agian rests with the lack of a running game.
    
    Lorenzo White rushed (if you can call it that) for 16yards on 6
    carries. The team had 50 yards on the ground.
    
    Pathetic.

�    <<< Note 37.458 by EARRTH::BROOKS "Rice U - The REAL National Champs" >>>
    
    Did Texas handle Rice pretty easily, Doc?
    
�    I'll talk more about the R&S at a reasonable hour, but I think there
�    are several misconceptions in this note about the offense.
    
    Well Doc, this misconceptions are shared with the majority of people in
    the NFL, including the statisticians.  The stuff I have been saying
    about the R&S has been pointed out many times by the "people in the
    know".

    Doc,

    please
    

    reply
    

    in

    one

    note

    Doc,
    
    Never claimed the Sawhawks as my own.  First, you claimed I was
    a Seahawk fan, since I live in Seattle.  OF course, that makes you
    a Pats and Celtics fan, using Doc_Logic (TM).  Second, I merely
    called you to the carpet, since you badmouthed the Hawks and played
    up your pathetic Oilers - who lost to those "pathetic Seachickens
    lead by those girly-mons Kreig and Kelly Stouffer" - I cracked up
    when I heard that the mighty Worn Moon led Oilers manged 10 points
    against the Sea Chickens.  HAWHAWHAWHAW.  You constantly stick your
    foot in it Doc.  HAWHAW HAW HAW
    
    JD

    Doc_Logic = Random Noise!

    So Groaner .... I hope you have a prediction for Sunday's game, eh ?

    
    I predict that the Browns will lose.  Lose big to help them out in
    getting the #1 pick in the draft should they catch NE.
    

    Well Houston Clobbered the Browns yesturday, I think they had 45 in the
    1st half and then added 13 in the 2nd half.  I was looking at some of 
    the stats on QB's,  Moon has a 64% completion average, 3800+yrds,
    25td's and 12ints....Now im not familiar with how they rate the QB's
    but I cant find another QB with a 64% completeion average, 3800yrs or
    25 td's.....??????  Who is the #1 QB right now in the league (stat wise
    not win)  Just curious.....
    								Mike

    re .470
    
    A little late with that "prediction" eh ?????

    No JD or Whitehair either ???
    
    Hmmmm .......

    I wonder what the score would have been if Glanville was still at the
    helm.

The Top ranked QB before Sunday was 
Steve DeBerg
Joe Montana


Jeff


This just shows to go ya that the QB rating system is fixed. 

    Hell, Glanville would have found a way to let Cleveland win it.
    
    BTW, this the first sweep of the Browns since '81, and the Oilers set a
    team record for points in this one.
    
    Lorenzo White tied the team record for rushing TD's in a game with 4
    (Earl Campbell did it on a memorable Monday night game in '78), and
    Moon now has 29 TD passes on the year. The team record is 36 by George
    Blanda.
    
    Oh yes, Moon has now thrown for 3,874 yards on the season. He'll have
    to go some to break the 5,000 yard barrier.
    
    Now comes a MAJOR test. 
    
    The Oilers play a red-hot KC team.
    
    In Kansas City. Outdoors. It will probabaly be cold. And windy.
    
    Big test for the Oilers, their heart, and the run and shoot.
    
    DrM

    Doc, Whatta ya mean, no JD??  Remember there's a time difference,
    coupled with iffy system availabilty.  So, am I supposed to be
    impressed?  The Browns aren't the worst team in the NFL simply because
    the Pats are around.  And what about consistency?  The Oilers are
    about as consistent as you are Doc.  That't why they score a whopping
    10 points against (in your own words) 'the hapless Seachickens'
    and then pour it on.  68 points in two games, Doc, and ya know what?
    The Oilers are 1-1 in that game, and a mighty impressive 7-6.  Ho
    hum.  That's the same record, BTW, as the hapless Seachickens.
    
    Of course, the JInts are 11-2, but that's another story.
    
    Houston has to prove it can win on the road.
    
    JD

    Ya know JD ... it is entirely TOO easy to get a rise outta ya .... ;-)

    Doc,
    
    Hah, you ain't getting no rise from me DOC - but it easy ranking
    on ya.   Trade Eric Davis yet?
    
    Oh, and to all - the p_name says it all.
    
    JD

    JD, you make Schineider look knowledable about football.
    
    heh heh heh

    re Metz and JD
    
    Metz, I agree with much that you've said. JD's brain-lock has put in
    the position of defending the run and shoot. Fact of the matter is (and
    people can read my old notes in the Oiler note, or ask Le-Fay, Walt, or
    Hendry), I *opposed* the Oilers going to the R&S. Why ? They didn't need
    it. They had 4 great running backs, the best 4 receivers in the league,
    and a great QB. All they needed to do was get rid of Glanville (he was
    killing the Oilers' offense) and tighten up the defense.
    
    There is no doubt in my mind that adjusting to the R&S has cost this
    team some ball games - the Jets game in particular. Quite possibly the
    Niners, Rams , and Seattle game as well. 
    
    On the other hand, the defense has done quite well - and vast
    improvement over past years. In fact, I'll go so far as to say the
    Oiler defense hasn't played this well since the late 70's.
    
    Anyhow, I believe that the R&S can work, and that people are mostly
    shocked by the *difference* of the offense. While it's an interesting
    offense, my favorite offensive team to watch are the Redskins. I find
    it amazing (and a tribute to Joe Gibbs) that a team can take the one
    back offense from a power running club (Riggins, Rogers) to the top
    passing club in the NFL in 1988-89 (with Williams, Rypian, and The
    Posse). I admire SF, and Cincy for their innovations. But I digress.
    
    All of these "arguments" that JD has against the R&S comes back to macho. 
    
    And we all know that JD is a real expert on the topic. :-)
    
    On a more serious note, Detroit is a much more dangerous team with the
    R&S. JD, what is your excuse now ? The Raiders are certainly a better
    team than Denver, and the Lions were moving the ball at will. Barry
    Sanders ran for 176 yards (8 yard avg.) against one of the NFL's top
    teams against the rush. I dare say that if the Lions ever get some real
    WR's (Jason Phillips' had two HUGE drops last night), they'll have a
    really hard offense to stop.
    
    [BTW JD, that was a nice evasion on your part after the Houston -
    Buffalo game a couple of weeks ago.]
    Oh yes, as to your comments about how Barry Sanders would benefit from
    a conventional offense - Barry would laugh in your face. Sanders has
    said on more than one occasion that the R&S is the best thing that has
    ever happened to him, and is perfectly suited to his running style.
    
    And in a conventional offense, the Raiders would have killed Sanders.
    
    Last thing for now : Please remember that the "fatal" shortcommings of
    the R&S are nothing new. So-called experts said the same thing about
    the "conventional" offenses that you're so in love with now. Paul Brown
    was called a "basketball" coach, because his teams passed so much. The
    straight-T was rejected as being too radical by many. Then the Bears
    wiped out the Redskins 73-0 with it, and changed a lot of minds.
    
    I submit that you guys look at a little football history first.
    
    Yes, I see some shortcomings in the R&S - but there are shortcomings in
    ANY offensive scheme. Bottom line is this - if have good enough talent
    in your offensive scheme, and you execute well, you will be sucessful
    on offense. If you play good defense, you'll win championships.
    
    DrM

    
    The best 4 recievers in the leaugue!! HARDEE HARDEE HAW! WHo are you
    trying to kid? What about Jerry Rice, Anthony Carter, Mark Duper,
    Andre Reed just to name a few. Be real.
    
    
    
    
    Steve 

 I'd take Givins and Hill over Duper, and Carter. I'd be happy with either
 Givins or Reed. Rice is naturally in a class by himself but given some of
 the near shutouts teams have been pitching against him I'm starting to 
 question his heart. Certainly can't question his talent though. I'd love
 to see Al Toon on a real team....

 mike  

    Doc,
    
    First, I like Barry Sanders.  And of course the R&S benefits him,
    it lets him run lots of draws and against defenses loaded with
    defensive backs.  I think he'd be a great running back in a
    conventional offense.  He's just plum good.
    
    Doc, last I looked, the Lions LOST last night.  LOST - as in not
    win.  So your arguement for the R&S sounds like its good because
    it produces excellent_losses.    Doc, Houston's win vs. Buffalo
    was negated by losing to those hapless seachickens.
    
    I have an opinion that hte R&S won't work, and that its a wimpy
    offense.  So far, I'm right.  The Oilers are impressively 1 game
    over .500 in a a weak conference.  The Lions are piling up excellent
    losses and streaking towards the cellar.   Pretty impressive offense.
    
    Meanwhile, Buffalo continues to score more points than anyone, playing
    a conventional offense and smash-mouth defense.   Doc, as YOU said,
    defense wins champeenships, not wimpy gimmickry on offense.   And
    that's a fack (tm).
    
    
    JD

    Well, yeah, they lost.  (No comment on that fumble batted back into
    play)...
    
    But, they lost to LA by 7 (should have been 4) and took Chicago and
    Washington in OT and maybe should have won both of those.  I'll take
    that for now, all 3 are bonifide playoff contenders and we played
    them all tough.  It certainly wasn't the defense that did that.
    
    -Walt

    
    I read in yesterday's paper than even before Houston's romp over
    Cleveland, they led the AFC in both first downs and third-down
    conversion percentage.  Beyond raw points scored (I think Houston is
    third there), this means that the run-and-shoot is providing the ball
    control I was referring to yesterday, something normally associated
    with more balanced offenses.  It does say that Houston's offense is
    *not* a three-plays-and-punt or three-plays-and-score type offense.
    
    glenn
    

    re .482
    
    Steve, take a cold shower.
    
    AS A GROUP, the Oilers have the best quartlet (sp) in football.
    
    Miami has Clayton and Duper, and then a dropoff. The best trio has to
    be The Posse in Washington. But for sheer talented depth, the Oilers
    foursome of Givins, Hill, Jeffries, and Duncan can't be touched.

    Well I'm sure glad the Jets have Toon and Moore rather than any pair of
    Oiler receivers, and Mathis is already as good as Jeffires or Duncan.
    
    49ers probably aren't crying over their "weakness" here either.
    
    Dan

    Glenn, don't ruin JD' "facks" with logic !!!!! :-)
    
    Gee JD, the Lions put up 31 points against a top defensive team, and
    it's the Run And Shoot offense that was responsible for allowing 38
    according to you.
    
    Boy is that weak or what ????
                
    You know, even Whitehair uses more logic than you do ...

    Doc,
    
    All the R&S does is make excellent_losses, and inflate QB nd WR
    stats.  Betcha neither the Erlers or Lions win achampeenship with
    it.  All it does is make for 'exxciting' pinball type action, not
    real football.  
    
    JD

    > Betcha neither the Erlers or Lions win achampeenship with
    > it.  All it does is make for 'exxciting' pinball type action, not
    > real football.  
    
    I agree; they probably won't, at least not in the immediate future. 
    That puts them in the company of some of the greatest offensive teams
    in history, including the Chargers of the late 70's and the Dolphins 
    of the 80's.  There's more to the game than offense, which has never 
    been denied by advocates of the run-and-shoot.
    
    glenn
    

    
    Doc, you didn't say quartet, you said the best 4 reciever's in
    footsball. So there.thhhhppptttttttt. Oiler's do have a talented
    foursome of reciever's I aint denying that, so why don't you 
    take a cold shower. From what I hear you note like you play basketball
    crummy. 8^))))
    
    
    
    Steve

    >>You know, even Whitehair uses more logic than you do ...
                               ^^^^
    
    Doc,
    
    Shouldn't that be "used" instead of "uses" seeing his abscence in here
    since the Brown(spot)s(tm) have lost a gazillion in a row???????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    I read an article where someone showed a correlation between the
    giveaway/takeaway stat and winning percentage.  Winning teams were well
    in the positive on this stat.  It was also shown that the R&S leads to
    alot of turnovers.

    > I read an article where someone showed a correlation between the
    > giveaway/takeaway stat and winning percentage.  Winning teams were well
    > in the positive on this stat.  It was also shown that the R&S leads to
    > alot of turnovers.
    
    I admit that this is my one remaining doubt on the run-and-shoot, not
    the subjectives on its "wimpiness" that purportedly carry over to the
    defense.  However, I don't know how anything has been proven regarding
    turnovers based on a couple of seasons of use by two teams, especially
    when one of the teams (the Lions) has been historically bad for the
    past three decades now and has just started breaking in its
    quarterbacks.  Warren Moon hasn't thrown a particularly outrageous 
    number of interceptions and has a great TD/INT ratio.  Turnover ratio 
    also has a good correlation with points scored/allowed, I'll bet, and 
    that's another category the Oilers aren't hurting at. 
    
    I guess where I differ from JD's opinion is that I would not have
    expected instant miracles from a change of offense.  It's simply not
    fair at this point to compare the Oilers or Lions with the Giants,
    Bills, 49'ers, etc., without taking many more circumstances into
    account.  But I do see enough absolutely hideous conventional 
    offenses in the league to tell me that the run-and-shoot in both
    locales hasn't exactly been a complete bust.
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn, the articles I've read on the R&S realize the offense isn't used
    that much in the NFL and has drawn on college and the USFL to provide
    more info on this such as turnovers.
    
    In the case of Detroit it appears that the R&S has made a bad team
    better (although the flip side maybe that it's just better personnel). 
    In Houston it was almost a case of "it wasn't broke, so why fix it",
    although Moon seems to have what it takes to QB a R&S offense.

    
    re: .492
    
    Steve, DrM doesn't even show up to DEC games anymore... he knows
    he won't play... he claims to be a defensive specialist... the
    problem is... true story... one game, he was playing defense 
    while we were on offense.  He hung around down on the defensive
    end of the court several times in a row, so we had to play 4-on-5
    on offense... not that he would have helped much had he came down
    on offense... of course, he got subbed out... I think he's just out
    of shape and can't run... after every game I offer a rematch of
    the 1-on-1, but he ALWAYS comes up with a lame excuse.

    re .497
    
    What was the score of last weeks Browns game ?
    
    And where were you last Sunday for football ?
    
    Can you say "wimp" boys and girls ? I knew you could ...

    Re. Chuck Weatherspoon:
    
    Doc, I didn't say Weatherspoon didn't rush for 1000 yards.  I was
    acknowledging that the run-and-shoot can be an excellent 
    avg.-per-carry rushing offense, too, simply because the run is the 
    change of pace and the defense doesn't prioritize stopping it.  It's 
    my opinion that any number of backs could have rolled up that yardage 
    in the Cougar offense, which is not a knock on the offense or
    necessarily Weatherspoon.
    
    Re. Greg Pruitt:
    
    Somehow you managed to place at least 10 patsies from the Big-8 in 
    Oklahoma's 1971 schedule.  But the fact is that Oklahoma's schedule 
    was in no way comparable to Houston's of the past few years.  
    Nebraska, OU, and Colorado finished 1, 2, and 3 in the country from 
    the Big-8 that year, the first and last time a conference has ever 
    done that.  Kansas wasn't the slouch that they are now, and Oklahoma 
    also had Texas and USC on the docket in 1971.  It was very tough
    competition, against which Pruitt excelled.  Pruitt didn't even play 
    in the second half of most of the other games, which is why he ended 
    up with under 200 carries (but still amassed almost 1700 yards). 
    
    But, to answer the question, what was Weatherspoon's average last year?
    I didn't hear anything about it coming in the wake of Ware's Heisman.
    Did he break the magic 10.0?
    
    glenn
    

    
    DrM, no show again... I guess you can't squeeze hoop into that busy
    social schedule of yours (ha ha ha)!
    

    re .500
    
    35-23 and 58-14 .....
    
    re .499
    
    I think Weatherspoon averaged 9.8 a carry, but no, he didn't nail the
    magic 10 ypc.

    
    re: .501
    
    DrM, no show again... I guess you can't squeeze hoop into that busy
    social schedule of yours (ha ha ha)!

    Must be nice to be able to play Paul...
    
    -Walt (stuck in waiting list land)

    I guess KC really shut down the Run and Shoot, moon threw for 527yrds
    3td and no int.  He threw somewhere around 60% and has a record 536
    passes this year.  What paper post the QB ratings, NBC had moon listed
    as #2 before this game, just curious were he will stand now. Houston
    can seal there fate with a win next week against cinncy and the
    following week against pitt, so basically the AFC central and the last
    wildcard spot are in Houston's control.  Like to see Houston take the
    division and Pitt get the last wildcard spot but Houston needs to beat
    cinncy next week to clinch a spot.....Texas may have 2 teams in the
    playoffs after next week....
    								Mike

    The AFC Central is a madhouse.  Even if the Steelers win their
    remaining two games, everything depends on what happens next week in
    the Oilers Bengals game.
    
    Moon was great yesterday.  Regardless of what you think of the Oilers
    and their ugly uniforms, you really have to admire Warren.
    
    I can't believe Jack "Mr. run up the NCAA scores" wouldn't go for
    a record-breaking pass at the end of the game!  The pass that the
    replay ruled out of bounds was obviously inbounds and would have given
    Moon 33 additional yards.  
    
    	--dan'l
    

    RE: .503
    
    Stuck on the waiting list... take DrMs slot on our roster.  He never
    shows up anyways...

          
    Even if the run-and-shoot is somewhat inconsistent, yesterday's games 
    went a long way towards disproving that it can't work against the 
    "tough" defenses.  Kansas City was second in the AFC in points allowed;
    Chicago third in the NFC.  I can't remember the last time I saw so many
    long pass plays so wide open as in the Bears-Lions game (but then again
    I didn't see the Oilers-Chiefs, either).  The Bears were completely and
    utterly at a loss as to how to stop the Lions' offense.  They tried
    concentrating on Barry Sanders, apparently, and were burned badly.
    
    Looking at the records, it appears as if both Houston and Detroit have
    performed better overall against their tougher opponents than the easy
    ones.  Houston has beat Buffalo, Kansas City, Cincinnati, and lost by
    three to San Francisco (their other five losses are to more mediocre 
    Atlanta, Pittsburgh, NY Jets, LA Rams, and Seattle).  Detroit hasn't 
    fared as well, but have beat Chicago and Minnesota and given scares in 
    other games to Green Bay, Chicago, Washington, and the LA Raiders.  If
    Detroit goes through with the rumored firing of Mouse Davis and company
    (retaining Fontes), I think they're taking a big step backwards and a
    making a major mistake.  Rodney Peete may just be coming into his
    own...
    
    glenn
    

    League rules don't allow it Paul, talk to Dan Schneider about that...

    
    
    We just played Dan's team last week.  Dan was hoping to post up
    DrM and take him to school... but DrM didn't show.
    
    Walt, maybe next year.  

    Earth to JD .... come in JD Whitehair .....
    
    heh heh heh ...

    Ah .... the sweet smell of vindication ....
    
    Against one of the better defenses in football, and in lousy weather,
    the Run and Shoot had its finest hour.
    
    Houston blows away the Chiefs 27-10, Warren Moon went 27-45-0 for an
    incredible *527* yards and 3 TD's. Only Norm Van Brocklin threw for
    more yards, 40 years ago. And if not for a bad call by a replay
    official on a 33 yard pass to Jeffires, he may had very well had the
    record.
    
    Jeffries had a career day with 9 catches and 245 yards, including a
    spectacular 84 yard pass and run from Moon that broke the Chiefs' back.
    
    Without a doubt, this is the biggest road win for Houston since the
    wild card win over CLEVESCUM back in 88.
    
    Another amazing fact - Moon completed 11 passes of 20 yards or more.
    
    The Oilers are now in charge of their own destiny at 8-6. If they win
    their last two, they go in as AFC Central champs. Next week, the
    Bengals host Houston. About a year ago, the Oilers had a shot to take
    the Central, and they came into Cincy and got demolished.
    
    Suffice to say that the Oilers remember ...
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Between Houston's wipeout of KC, and the number that the Lions did
    on the Bears, it seems that a lot of R&S critics have been silenced.
    
    Right JD ?

    Why is it that everyone, including the media, dwells on that bad replay
    call that "would've given Moon the record"?  Heck, that play happened
    way in the 1st half (1st quarter?) when the record wasn't even being
    thought of.  If it happened in the last 2 minutes of the game, then I
    can see bitchin' about it........
    
    Speaking of the record, I saw a list of the record holders and
    according to my paper, it said that Norm Van Brocklin got his record
    against the NY Yankees.  Either that's a typo (my guess) or there
    really was a pro football team way before my time called the Yankees.
    Maybe Lee can straighten this out for me?  :-)
    
    One other interesting fact about "the record" is that Joe Willie is
    somewhere around 5th with just under 500 yards (497, I think).  What's 
    amazing about his stats is he got those yards in far fewer catches that
    all the rest, including Warren :-), by a long shot.  Namath completed
    *only* 15 of his passes, and I'm pretty sure he even attempted less
    than what Warren wound up completing.......
    
    Hawk

    That was no typo, Hawk.  There was once a NFL team called the New York
    Yankees.  It was brought over to the NFL when the AAFC merged in, I
    believe, but it never survived.  There was also once a NFL team called
    the Brooklyn Dodgers.  There was also a baseball team called the New
    York Giants, that was around before the football Giants were formed.
    
    The name of the St Louis Football Cardinals had nothing to do with the
    St Louis Baseball Cardinals, however, since the football Cardinals
    moved to St Louis from Chicago.
    
    John

    Well, I stand corrected then, thanks John.  But I betcha LeE remembers
    the NY football Yankees very well!  :-)
    
    Hawk

    I'm really not btchng about Moon not getting the record because of the
    replay.  It's just that the replay once again was not used properly. 
    The receiver without a doubt had the ball in bounds and dropped it when
    he landed on his butt out of bounds.  If the replay is used properly,
    Moon has the record.
    
    This brings up an interesting point.  Were there any replay reversals
    of on-the-field calls that helped Moon's passing yardage.  Remember,
    most of these other QB's didn't have that luxury.   Were they using
    replay the year Marino had his 500+ game?
    
    	--dan'l

    re .512 and .513
    
    The New York Yankees later became the Dallas Texans (yes there was one
    before the AFL francheise that moved to KC), which then became the
    modern-day Baltimore/Indy Colts (I'm 80% sure).
    
    Yeah, Hawk I noticed that about Namath (but do we really want to set
    Schneider off ????) - 15-27 for 496 yards, an average of over **30**
    yards a completion !
    
    Extra note, Moon threw once for 6 yards in the last two series that the
    Oilers had the ball. The record was there for the taking ... sigh ....
    
    (Moon holds the all-time pro record with a 555 yard game when he was an
    Edmonton Eskimo, FWIW)
    
    BTW, Moon now hs 4,401 yards on the season, and tied Marino's record of
    9 300+ yard games this year. Marino's record of 5,081 yards is still in
    reach.
    
    The Oilers may have finally hit their stride, but play the Bengals will
    not be a gimme game ... no way .....

    re .515
    
    Probably not Dan'l, but the way Marino was throwing the ball around
    that season, I doubt if there were many reversals anyway ....

    Not quite on the Texans to Colts, Doc.  They did become the Colts,
    folded after a year and then a new Colts franchise was started.
    
    John

    re 516
    I had always heard that the Baltimore Colts evolved from a team called
    the Miami Seahawks, around 1950-51. There used to be a lot of football
    teams with the same name as the city's baseball team. In the 1930s (?) 
    The Boston Braves played a few seasons of football at Braves Field, but
    one year decided to move to Fenway Park. They COULDN'T keep the Braves
    name, but they were too cheap to buy new uniforms. (They had a logo of 
    an indian head.) Soooo, the re-named the team the Boston Redskins. The
    team lasted a year or 2 and then moved to DC, where the rest is history.
      

    >One other interesting fact about "the record" is that Joe Willie is
    >somewhere around 5th with just under 500 yards (497, I think).  What's 
    >amazing about his stats is he got those yards in far fewer catches that
    >all the rest, including Warren :-), by a long shot.  Namath completed
    >*only* 15 of his passes, and I'm pretty sure he even attempted less
    >than what Warren wound up completing.......
    
    I remember that game well.  Johnny U went for over 500 in the same
    game, that the Jets ended up winning.  On consecutive offensive plays
    for the Jets, Namath hit Richard Caster for 80 yards and 81 yards TD
    bombs.
    
    Remember that in the 14th game of the season, Warren Moon, a fine
    second-tier-to-Marino-in-the-AFC quarterback, just went over 4000
    yards, certainly a worthy achievement, playing the gimmick,
    stats-bloated offense known as the run and shoot in this pass-happy era
    of the NFL with relaxed defensive rules and legal offensive holding,
    etc.  In 1967, playing a conventional offense in a league with none of 
    the pass-happy rules in place, Joe Namath became the first quarterback
    ever to throw for 4000 yards in a year.  No one was ever close before.
    
    
    Dan

    The Miami Seahawks never survived the merger of the AAFC with the NFL. 
    The only long-term survivors from that league were the Browns and
    Niners.
    
    John

                 
    > I remember that game well.  Johnny U went for over 500 in the same
    > game, that the Jets ended up winning.  On consecutive offensive plays
    > for the Jets, Namath hit Richard Caster for 80 yards and 81 yards TD
    > bombs.
    
    Johnny U never passed for over 500 yards.  Only six guys have ever done
    it.  The thing about 400+ yard games, though, is that a large percentage 
    of them have come in losing efforts, which is not too surprising unless 
    passing is almost the entire offense, like with the run-and-shoot.
    
    > In 1967, playing a conventional offense in a league with none of 
    > the pass-happy rules in place, Joe Namath became the first quarterback
    > ever to throw for 4000 yards in a year.  No one was ever close before.
      
    Stats inflation is a fact of life in comparing passing numbers through
    the years.  AFL passing stats were inflated above NFL stats of the same 
    era.  Opportunity is obviously a critical variable.  Moon's quarterback
    rating compared against his peers' is impressive even in spite of his 
    inflated opportunities.
    
    glenn
    

    On the news this morning they had asked moon why he didnt go for the
    record..He said records wernt important to him right now, just wins.
    He also said that records can come back and haunt you, they may have
    to play KC again in the playoffs and the would definatly remember if
    a record was set against them.....:-) ..So Moon needs 681yrds to pass
    marinos single season passing record, a mare 340yrds in each of his
    last 2 games, I hope he can throw for over 400yrds this week and put
    the record within reaching distance....
    							Mike

    >Johnny U never passed for over 500 yards. 
    
    I could have sworn he did.  I thought I recalled how ironic it was that
    Unitas passed for over 500 that day, and outpassed Namath with Joe
    having such a brilliant game and the Jets winning.  I don't remember
    the final score, but it wasn't obscenely high, something like 28-24. 
    Do you have any recollection of this game and what Unitas did?  I'm
    certain at the time, they set the combined passing yardage record,
    probably still unbroken.
    
    >The thing about 400+ yard games, though, is that a large percentage 
    >of them have come in losing efforts, which is not too surprising unless 
    >passing is almost the entire offense, like with the run-and-shoot.
    
    True enough, but not the case here.  Marino's 500+ effort came in a
    loss to the Jets which included a slew of interceptions (5 I think)
    including 3 by rookie Eric MacMillan.
    
    As for the AFC being a gimmick, it was, and because of Namath it was
    legitimized.  We'll see if the run and shoot will fare as well.
    
    >Moon's quarterback
    >rating compared against his peers' is impressive even in spite of his 
    >inflated opportunities.                                   
    
    Impressive, yes, but not significantly more than last year.  Moon's a
    good QB.  Given that his stats are inflated by an opportunity many of
    his peers  don't enjoy, I realize that there are better ones out there. 
    
    Dan

    You don't think KC is going to remember this game since there was no
    record set?  Believe me, with all the media hype (i.e. Moon Moon Moon),
    the Chiefs will have little trouble remembering those passes.
    
    Houston was very sportsmanlike in that game, I must admit.  Very little
    taunting or showboating.  I liked that.  
    
    	--dan'l

    
>    I remember that game well.  Johnny U went for over 500 in the same
>    game, that the Jets ended up winning.  

As a matter of fack, your memory is faulty. Unitas NEVER threw for 500+ in a
game. The only members of the 500 yard club are Van Brocklin, Moon, YA Tittle
(he threw for 7 TD's in that game), Simms, Marino, and Vince Ferragamo.

Johnny U was somewhere in the high 300's, still a great game. No need for you
to embellish on the truth.

(Stat fact/Trivia : What was the only NFL game to have TWO QB's throw for over
400 yards ?)

> On consecutive offensive plays for the Jets, Namath hit Richard Caster for 
> 80 yards and 81 yards TD bombs.

True. Caster, BTW, was one of my favorite players growing up. I've always felt
that he and Ray Chester were the forerunners to the Winslows and JAcksons, but
never got the credit. :-(

Oh yes, you blew it with the game score. It WAS a high scoring game. The Jets
won something like 45-35.
    
>    Remember that in the 14th game of the season, Warren Moon, a fine
>    second-tier-to-Marino-in-the-AFC quarterback, just went over 4000
>    yards, certainly a worthy achievement, playing the gimmick,
>    stats-bloated offense known as the run and shoot in this pass-happy era
>    of the NFL with relaxed defensive rules and legal offensive holding,
>    etc.  In 1967, playing a conventional offense in a league with none of 
>    the pass-happy rules in place, Joe Namath became the first quarterback
>    ever to throw for 4000 yards in a year.  No one was ever close before.
 
First :

1) Sonny Jurgenson threw for over 3,700 yards playing in the NFL, which had
better defenses than the AFL did in 1967. (No I'm not a NFL bigot, even many
AFL coaches said the same thing. Top to bottom, the NFL had more quality D's
than the AFL.) Several AFL QB's came closer than you are willing to admit.

2) Yeah, linemen can get away with more, and DB's with less. But Namath never
saw the multiple defenses that they have today. Namath barely saw a "nickle"
package, and he NEVER saw a "dime" or 7 DB package. Namath never saw a 46 or
Eagle defense. 

And I wonder if he would have been able to handle the coverages of today. Many
of his peers noted that Joe Willie would force a pass into the teeth of a zone,
rather than take the shorter open pass. Result : Namath ahs more career INTs
than TD's. 

3) AFL defenses were no match for NFL D's. Even YOu would have rolled up some
serious numbers against some of the 2nd tier AFL secondaries.
    
    The AFL was pass-happy without special rules, due in part to the
    disparity in talent between DB's and WR's.
    
DrM

Didn't Joe Willy have the first 400 yard game, as well?

Mike JN

PS - I think it is really futile to try to compare athletes across
     decades. Too many variables, changes, etc.
	All you can say is that Joe Namath was THE premier quarterback
	of his day. He was head and shoulders above his peers.
	That cannot be said about Worn Moon (though I do not deny that
	Worn is a very good quarterback).

    re .526:
    
    > (Stat fact/Trivia : What was the only NFL game to have TWO QB's throw
    > for over 400 yards ?)
    
    The 1981(?) AFC playoff game between San Diego and Miami?
    
    
    py

>True. Caster, BTW, was one of my favorite players growing up. I've always felt
>that he and Ray Chester were the forerunners to the Winslows and JAcksons, but
>never got the credit. :-(
    
    I'm not sure what you mean by that.  I delighted in the recognition
    Caster got because I felt sure he was overrated.  He was moved from TE
    to WR because he wasn't a tight end in any way.  Rich was a big target
    who could occasionally get deep, but had suspect hands.  Namath made
    him an All-Pro by getting two passes into his hands deep for every one
    Caster hung on to.  Caster moved to WR because he was a pathetic
    blocker and wasn't much good for the short, over the middle stuff that
    Namath prefered to use the tight end for, and made room for Jerome
    Barkum, really not that much better an alternative.
    
    So you see, Caster did not do much to further define or revolutionize
    the tight end position, which is what I think you were implying.  It
    was more of a case of a misplaced good, but not great wide receiver.
    
>1) Sonny Jurgenson threw for over 3,700 yards playing in the NFL, which had
>better defenses than the AFL did in 1967. (No I'm not a NFL bigot, even many
>AFL coaches said the same thing. Top to bottom, the NFL had more quality D's
>than the AFL.) Several AFL QB's came closer than you are willing to admit.
    
    You're influenced by the early years of the AFL.  By the time of '67
    and on, the AFL was much more than what you've implied.  It was the
    fight for the respect of the league which included misguided arguments
    such as your own.  Although the Packers were historically a great team
    in those years, the AFL believed they could compete in all phases with
    the NFL those years.  The NFL refused to beleive until Namath and the
    Jets opened their eyes.  And believe it or not, it was defense first
    and foremost which was perhaps the biggest surprise, because everyone
    already knew how great Namath was.
    
>But Namath never
>saw the multiple defenses that they have today. Namath barely saw a "nickle"
>package, and he NEVER saw a "dime" or 7 DB package. Namath never saw a 46 or
>Eagle defense.                                               
    
    Agreed it was a simpler age, but that doesn't explain any difference. 
    Not only did Namath call his own plays, but he was the Jets de facto
    offensive coordinator as well.  He is commonly praised as the best
    reader of defenses in the history of the game, for calling audibles at
    the line which were scarily accurate in exploiting the D far more than
    any of his peers.  I don't think, if we could project him into today's
    game, that the multiple defenses would phase a man who was head and
    shoulders above the competition then.  He'd be there now as well,
    except perhaps for Montana and Marino. 
    
>Many                                                                     
>of his peers noted that Joe Willie would force a pass into the teeth of a zone,
>rather than take the shorter open pass. Result : Namath ahs more career INTs
>than TD's.                                                               
    
    Yeah, this is what happened last time.  You fell back on these bogus
    "many of his peers" arguments.  FOrced passes and INTs were a result of
    playing on pathetic Jets teams which needed high risk for their few
    wins.  Premeire football experts such as John Madden, Bill Walsh, Vince
    Lombardi, etc (notice the difference relative to the unnamed peers)
    praise his reading of defenses before almost anything else.  There's
    something to learn here.
    
>3) AFL defenses were no match for NFL D's. Even YOu would have rolled up some
>serious numbers against some of the 2nd tier AFL secondaries.
    
    3 sounds suspiciously like 1, and is equally wrong.  But I accept your
    praise of my passing game, especially coming off your embarassing
    performance of two weeks ago.  If you were on my team, we'd have never
    benched you from the QB spot.  Of course, we'd have never let you get
    there in the first place.
    
    
    Dan
                                           

    For all of SPORTS noters :
    
    DAn had over 1 hour (about 5 or 6 series) to work on CB Dr Midnight.
    
    Dan threw THREE passes in my area.
    
    His stats read : 1 completion (to JaKe) for 3 yards, and TWO INTS.
    
    John Hendry, could you please compute Dan-O's QB rating based on that ?
    
    Now why would Dan throw only three passes against me ? 
    
    Coul it have something to do with the fact that the ultimate tribute to
    a defensive back is to never throw in his area ?
    
    If so, I salute you DAn for bowing to the obvious.
    
    DrM

    re .531
    
    Caster - No, I would not rate him as a top TE. But he unique in the
    area of his deep speed, which few TE's had. Ray Chester was another
    such TE, but he was a more complete player. Those two players were the
    earlier version of Kellen Winslow, the best TE of his era, and one of
    the best of all time. Winslow is the decendant of the above named
    players in that you could line him up outside, and he could overpower a
    CB or outrun a safety.
    
    ================
    
    BTW, Dan when are you going to play REAL football ?
    
    You're the only joker I know who plays "grasp and control" !
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!

    re .530
    
    Good answer Paul. Fouts threw for 430+ yards, and Strock threw for over
    400 (and remeber, he didn't enter the game until the 2nd quarter)in the
    playoff game won by SD 41-38 in OT. One of the best games I've ever
    seen.

    >DAn had over 1 hour (about 5 or 6 series) to work on CB Dr Midnight.    
    >Dan threw THREE passes in my area.
    >His stats read : 1 completion (to JaKe) for 3 yards, and TWO INTS.
    
    So say your fantasies, but there were 11 other people on the field who
    know different.  When Doc showed up, his team was ahead 2 TDs to 1. 
    Another hour later and they were behind 6 to 3.  Cause and effect.
    
    Dan
    

    
    
>    You're influenced by the early years of the AFL.  By the time of '67
>    and on, the AFL was much more than what you've implied.  It was the
>    fight for the respect of the league which included misguided arguments
>    such as your own. 
    
    Bulltwinky. While teams such as the Raiders, Chiefs, and Jets had good
    D's (hence their stranglehold on the AFL), the other teams had a sharp
    dropoff of talent. There wasn't a real "middle-tier" so to speak.

>But Namath never
>saw the multiple defenses that they have today. Namath barely saw a "nickle"
>package, and he NEVER saw a "dime" or 7 DB package. Namath never saw a 46 or
>Eagle defense.                                               
    
>>    Agreed it was a simpler age, but that doesn't explain any difference. 
    
    It explains most of the difference. Dan, you caint have your cake and
    eat it too. You claim that Moon plays by easier rules than Namath did.
    I say that Moon sees at least 5 times as many defensive looks as Namath
    ever did.
    
>>   Not only did Namath call his own plays, but he was the Jets de facto
>>    offensive coordinator as well.  
    
    Gasp and swoon, I have the vapors ! :-) Dan the only QB's that didn't
    call their plays in that era was Meridith (Cowboys), and whover QB'ed
    in Cincy (Paul Brown). BFD. 
    
>>    He is commonly praised as the best reader of defenses in the history 
>>    of the game, 
    
    "Commonly" is pretty fuzzy. I've many a opponent claim that Bart Starr
    did a better job of that than Joe Willie. Toss in Johnny U.
    
>    I don't think, if we could project him into today's
>    game, that the multiple defenses would phase a man who was head and
>    shoulders above the competition then.
    
    You obviously haven't heard this man try to analyize a game huh ?

>    Yeah, this is what happened last time.  You fell back on these bogus
>    "many of his peers" arguments.
    
    Oh I see, when you can't come up with a reasoned counter, you disclaim
    the sources. Weak.
    
>    FOrced passes and INTs were a result of
>    playing on pathetic Jets teams which needed high risk for their few
>    wins.  
    
    Look up Namath's records. He was throwing picks (by the bushel) when
    the Jets had winners.

>    3 sounds suspiciously like 1, and is equally wrong.  But I accept your
>    praise of my passing game, especially coming off your embarassing
>    performance of two weeks ago. 
    
    I seem to remember YOU as being the one so embarrassed by my picking
    you off in the endzone that you REFUSED to look me in the eye.
    
    And there are witnesses to that. 
    
    I laid off you out of mercy, but I can play this little farce of yours
    any way you want. Your call.
    
> Of course, we'd have never let you get there in the first place.
    
    Until you play football by real rules (eg Sending out more tan 2
    recievers, and allowing the QB to run), instead of the Schnieder
    Girly-Mon rules, you honestly can't call yourself a QB.
    
    Namath would be ashamed of your 'style' of football.
    
    If this was the comedy show In Living Color, you'd be the guest star in 
    "Men On Football" ....
    
    DrM
    
    Dan
                                           

    You managed to change the score, and ask 11 people to support your lie.
    
    SOunds like an act of a desperate man to me. 
    
    Don't worry, when I get back in January, we'll scrape up a camcorder,
    and end this little issue for once and for all.

>>    He is commonly praised as the best reader of defenses in the history 
>>    of the game, 
    
>    "Commonly" is pretty fuzzy. I've many a opponent claim that Bart Starr
>    did a better job of that than Joe Willie. Toss in Johnny U.
    
    I'll go with Johnny U, the man Paul Zimmerman considers the greatest
    quarterback of the pre-rules change era (he wouldn't pull the trigger
    on a decision between Montana and Unitas for this very reason), and
    probably the consensus pick from the "experts" for this same honor.
    I'd say Dr. Z has put in the years and homework to make as an educated
    decision as anyone can, and one I agree with.
    
    Whatever Namath was able to do over a few years in the AFL while at his
    peak, regardless of that league's quality, Unitas did for over a decade 
    in the NFL.  Only man ever to win all of the various NFL Player of the 
    Year awards (UPI/Bert Bell/AP/PFWA) in one year *three* times (1959,
    1964, 1967)...
    
    glenn
      

    Hey Midcouldntthrowapassnearanybodysoyoubecamea(mediocre)receiver:
    
    I beg to differ with ya,  Dan threw 2 my way that went for completions
    in front of you.  One for about 3 yds and one for about 10.  I think he
    just didn't want to make you look bad by teaming up with all 255 lbs of
    me and burning your posterior all day.  
    
    Also, you throw the wildest lame duck I've ever seen!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    JaKe, don't feel bad... DrMs scoring average in the DEC league is
    0.45.  Of course he's averaging 0.17 rebounds per game too!

    
    Gee do you think you guy's could autograph a football for my
    little neighbor Billy? What a prized possesion that would make.
    It would really make his christmas!
    
    
    
    
    Steve 8^)
    

    FaKe, we don't count delay patterns in the flat. 
    
    Since I was covering a real wideout about 20 yards down the field, you
    should have been "open" against me .... :-)
    
    BTW, what was the name of the lineman you overpowered on defense ? :-)

    I go by the policy of kill first and then ask names, so's I didn't get
    the name!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    It's AWFULLY quiet in here isn't it ?
    
    JD has pulled a Whitehair after the triple-whipping he took this week
    (Giants lost, and Houston and Detroit scoring big wins with their R&S
    offenses doind a number on good defensive teams.), and of course with
    the Oilers plastering the Clowns twice, and then Clevscum winning their
    way out of a number 1 pick - I must say, it is too peaceful in here.
    
    tee he he
    
    Doc

    Is this the Houston Oilers note or the wanna be a football star
    notes file....
    
    If JK is such a great QB then why was Moon picked to start for the
    AFC ?????  
    								MB

    
    Have the Oilers ever won a division title?
    

    Have the Browns beat Houston this year ?
    
    Have the Browns even made Houston break a sweat this year ?
    
    Have the Browns even held Houston to under 30 points this year ?
    
    Will Groaner ever stick to the subject ?
    
    

DrM, I would guess that JD is still trying to dig himself out of a snowbank
out in Seattle.  He's never been one to hide {even when wrong ;-)}

    Say what ???? Seattle had a snowstorm ?
    
    DrM - Slightly disappointed with the lack of snow in NE.

    I'd say JD is laying on a beach recovering from the night before....
    
    He's on his honeymoon right now and believe me, Dr. Midnight and
    the Oilers is the last thing on his mind....:-)
    
    Cap who'll be doing the wedding thang in less than 4 months...

    Somebody should do the responsible thing here and call JD to tell him
    to hide his toothbrush when he leaves his hotel room......  :-)
    
    Hawk

    >Dan threw 2 my way that went for completions in front of you.
    
    Certainly did.  Doc was "covering" Jake, just like he was "covering"
    Chuck or Dan Claybrook, who both enjoyed toasting him a few times.
    
    Of course, Doc will say he wasn't covering these guys, and from my view
    as QB, it's hard to argue with him.
    
    Dan

    Dan, you're sinking a little lower each time.
    
    I suggest you change toothbrushes.
    
    doc
    
    p.s. I didn't know JD was jumping the broom, Congrats to The Lats !

    
    JD is down under (the land of Oz not under a snowbank) and he got out
    just in time. Took me 8 hours to travel the 20 or so miles to my house
    tuesday night. We're closed down until after xmas pretty much. You've
    never seen people with such stupid pea sized brains in your life until
    you've seen the people in cars like Mustang GT's try and drive in the
    snow around here.
    
    abandoned cars all over the freeways....It's a trip....
    
    
    Metz who has no idea when he's going to do his xmas shopping now.
    

    Hey Metz, I drive a Mustang GT and when the precip in NC even has a
    hint of white to it, that car doesn't hit the road.  It's not because
    of me or my car, but rather what others and there cars would do while
    sliding into it.
    
    Hope you all have a nice long Christmas vacation.  Looks like Denver
    might be out today too, no?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Nurse, you missed the DEC game last night... did you have a big date?
    (don't lie... because I know better... ha ha ha).

    Just who is Cody Carlson and what are his stats?????
    
    I must admit that I don't like it when any QB is hurt but, seeing as
    the winner Sunday nite goes to the playoffs, I DID smile from ear to
    ear when I heard that Moon(ed) ain't gonna play!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Texas was devestated this sunday losing Troy and Moon, both there
    teams the Oilers and Cowboys rely on there starting QB's.  Both
    teams were effected more than NY, Chic or Buff.  These are the 2
    biggest loses of the season for any team.  What effects does it
    have, while it knocks Houston out of the Playoffs and well never
    know just how good the RUn and SHoot is and for dallas they will
    still make the playoffs but any chance they had of being a spoiler
    is gone.......It does however greatly increase some other teams
    chances, this keeps cinccy and seattle alive another week.  Will
    have to wait to next year I dont see this Cody Carlson guy caring
    them thru the playoffs....How many weeks is Moon out ???
    
    	I guess moon should have gone for that record 2 weeks ago
    	then this year wouldnt be such a bust....He would have beat
    	Marinos single season record also if he hadnt been hurt...
    
    								Mike

What was Moon doing in there 20 pts down late in the game?

daryll

�What was Moon doing in there 20 pts down late in the game?
    
    Trying to win?

    Moon is out at least three weeks.  Kind of gross here: he dislocated
    his thumb and the joint popped out of the skin.  Ouch! Yuck!  I think
    the same thing happened to DeBerg but it was the pinky on his
    non-throwing hand.
    
    Moon wasn't playing well on Sunday.  He was off on a lot of his throws.
    
    Cody Carlson?  Heard of him, but that's about it.  It took Moon about
    five weeks to get the run and shoot to work for him.  Carlson has a
    week.  It doesn't look good for Houston, but don't forget that they are
    playing a Jekyll and Hyde Pittsburgh team.  
    
    This, however, is bad news for Cinci since they need Houston to win. 
    They may have won the proverbial battle Sunday, but lost the war when
    they broke Moon's thumb in the final minutes.
    
    	--dan'l

    If Pitt beats Houston and Seattle wins and cinncy loses will Seattle
    get that last Playoff spot ??????

    What I ment to ask is who gets it if seattle and Cinncy end up with
    the same record ???

    Due to head to head:
    
    WEEK4 10-01-90 21:00 Cincinnati      SEATTLE          Seattle 31-16 
                                                                  
    Seattle wins the last spot.
    
    The Wizard

    Pittsburgh is only favored by 1� this Sunday.  That's surpising
    considering Moon is out.
    
    	--dan'l

>    Just who is Cody Carlson and what are his stats?????
    
    Steelers Digest says Cody Carlson is a fourth-year player out of
    Baylor.  He has only played in mop-up duty this season.
    
    Games like this are strange.  Houston could get totally blown out or
    the other 21 guys on the field can tighten their belts and give a
    little extra and the Steelers could get blown out.  That's probably the
    reason for the marginal point spread.
    
    	--dan'l

    As mediocre as the Steelers have been this year, 9-0 vs teams with a
    losing record (at gametime), and 0-6 vs teams with a winning record, I
    find it suprising that they are favored in the A$$holedome this Sunday.
    I realize that Warmand Mooned ain't playing but, as Dan'l said, the
    other 21 could pump it up a bit and squash the Steelers, or the
    Oilslicks could fall flat on their face and get squashed.
    
    I can only hope that the Steeler defense confuses the rat turds out of
    Cody Carlson and that the Steeler Offense decides to take in the game
    rather than watch "Murder She Wrote".
    
    My confidence is reflected in the P-name though.
    
    
    JaKe