Conference 7.286::sports_90

    go whale!
    
    
    whalers over philly flyers  3-2..  martin the game winner  from
    ferraro and dinnen
    
    
    dinz
    
    
    CALGARY  8   NORGEEKS  2
    
    
    MINNY AND  PITT  TIED 4-4
    
    
    TONIGHT
    
    
    CHICAGO  AT ASHESWINGS
    
    LAKINGS  AT WARDLESDEVILS
    
    
    ISLES  AT  CHILDSCAPITALS
    
    DOH
    

Correction, Pope...

The winning goal was scored by Tomlak.  Martin's goal tied it at 2-2...

HTH,
Chainsaw

    .1
    
    Now they are back to 500....
    
    GO BRUINS BEAT BUFFALO AGIAN!! ANDY MOOG!!!!! DAVE CHRISTIAN will
    help the scoring on the right side.. NEELY-SWEENEY-CHRISTIAN!!!

    
    	flyers came outta the cellar.. blew it against hartford though,
    coulda grabbed first place!  go tocchet, kerr!!!

    FWIW
    
    Atlanta is trying to get an NHL Franchise.  Some local investors are
    getting some money to try to start one.  They figured around $25 to $30
    million dollars would be needed to start an NHL Team.  The NHL said...
    
    It will cost you $50 million!!!!!
    
    The most expensive club so far was the Whalers.  I believe FrankWa
    bough them.  8-)
    
    jab

    
    San Jose is supposed to be going after one, also.  I don't see any
    problem with them finding the money.  They want to get a hockey
    team so they can build a multi-purpose arena, and later entice the
    Worriers to move.  450 mil is the price they are talking here, also.
    
    Bruce

    Bruce,
    
    According to the article I read, San Jose and Milwaukee are virtually
    shoe-ins to receive a franchise, perhaps as early as 1992-1993.
    
    jab

    
    That's what they are saying here, also.  I wonder how well it would
    do.  The Bay Area hasn't seen hockey for a long time, and I wonder
    if it will get support.  There is some stirring from local fans
    for a hockey team, but not a lot.  I think all the NHL is trying
    to do is move into the 4th largest TV market (and the largest one
    they don't have a team in) so they can get a better cable contract.
    I really can't see much more than 8-10 K fans a night showing up.
    We'll see...
    
    Bruce

    They are saying the same thing up here in Seattle.  Both Seattle
    and Tacoma have minor league teams, and both have a good following.
    Seattle seems a logical place for it.
    
    JD

    Maybe DrJ will buy a hockey team insteaded?

       Bruce, I went to a few Golden Seals games out there in Oakland
    when I was in the Navy. What makes them think they'll get more support
    now than they did then?
                                  Denny

    
    I'm not sure they will get more support.  However, since you were
    in the Navy, the population here has increased dramatically.  Weren't
    you on one of the Navy fireboats that helped put out the fire during
    the '06 quake?  8^)  Seriously, this area, and especially the south
    Bay where San Jose is, has a population with a huge disposable income.
    
    Bruce 

Hey 'quake --

The name is okay for you to use.  I put my comments in the other
notes file (where you asked me), and you can put that one
in here if you'd like...

The KGP has spoken.

Chainsaw, Supreme Kommandant, KGP

       Gee thanx Bruce! Actually I was standin' righ next to old John
    Paul Jones when he...
                                                      Denny

    Last nites games
    
    Montreal 2    Nyrangers 0
    New Jersey 3  Boston 1
    Buffalo 4     Philly 3
    Edmonton 6    Chicago 5
    Quebec        Vancouver    late game can someone fill in the score on
                               this on for me thanks.
    
tonight we have one game. St.louis at Toronto

    Quebec 2 Vancouver 2
    
    pete

    
Hey Big Mac....DEVILS 3, Broons 1....haw haw haw

�Hey Big Mac....DEVILS 3, Broons 1....haw haw haw
    
    Yeah, I saw the game.  It was good hockey.  Why can't the Bs put the
    puck in the net?  Real good goal tending on both ends.
    
    To whoever said that Easterners are seeing an inferior brand of hockey
    compared to the Westerners, please explain how three of the top W/L
    records in hockey are in the Adams division (or were until last night).

    And, the DEVILS beat the Gretzky's a couple days ago.
    
    EAST COAST HOCKEY RULES THE NHL!

>    Yeah, I saw the game.  It was good hockey.  Why can't the Bs put the
>    puck in the net?  Real good goal tending on both ends.
 
	Yea, same old problem.  Loads of opurtunities but the B's can't 
put one in.  Hey Ralph, what happened to Cam?  

mc

    .20
    
    Nothing wrong with the 1st team all-star right wing Cam Neely!

    re:.21
       Let's keep Don, or is it Steve, Nelson out of this!
                                  Denny

I'm the one that said that Western NHL hockey was better than
the Eastern cities play. Both conferences have good and bad teams
but the West have more good teams and less bad ones than the East.
IE: The Good; (Cal, LA, Edm, Chi) vs (Buff, Bos, Mtl) 
    The Bad: (NJ, NYI, Que) vs (Det, Tor)

And another thing, one can only take so much of 'tight-checking'
hockey. The Patrick is weak but somewhat exciting but so is the 
Norris. The Adams is starting to change it's tune but their brand
of hockey is still boring. If you like the hard-hitting that they
provide, good, but they can't do it for 80 games and they always
seem to be 'protecting' a 1-goal lead. The Smythe, which is the class
of the league, is hard-hitting, fast skating, criss-crossing hockey.
As for the Adams they're still stuck w/ 60's style hockey. 
Most of the top 'individual' players in the NHL are in the West. 
People put down the sNorris, but after the 1st 2 months of hockey 
they had the best combined record for out of division games. Even 
Pat Burns wants to change his Habs, he said that some guys were 
coming off their shifts 'happy' that the other team didn't score, 
he wants that attitude to change. Even the fans in Mtl want the team
to go back to the '70s style of hockey and get away from what 
Lemaire and Perron instilled. Burns is their answer since he always
coached high-flying offensive hockey. The B's won't change for 2 
reasons: the Gahden and Milbury(he doesn't know how to go about putting
the puck in a net). 

If all you want is your team to win, then I'm sure you disagree.
If all you want is get your $25 worth of entertainment then you 
might agree w/ me. I'll go see Calgary-Edmonton any day before
I go see a Habs-B's up-and-down dump-it-in hockey game. 

Andy

	East vs West

	Nobody in the West plays defense!  Just becuase there are alot of goals
does not make it better hockey.  It can be exciting but it can also be pretty 
boering watching breakaways or 3 on 1's all night.  Hockey games arn't supposed
to be 8-7 or 6-5.  There is either no one back or these great offensive
teams end up trying one to many rink wide passes and it gets picked off for
a breakaway.  Give me hard hitting, smart hockey, with defense and offense.
You know the COMPLETE game.

mc

	

	I'm looking for an 'official'  Chicago Blackhawks sweater (aka jersey)
	for an XMAS gift.  I live in Metro West area of Boston.    Any 
        suggestions?   

	Perhaps the shop in the lobby of the Boston Garden?  If so,
	what's its name?   I'm willing to do mail order if I have to.

	Thanks,
	Daniel Holland
	LKG2, 226-5464

       The shop at the Garden is called 'Boston Bruins Pro Shop' I think.
    One of those 'sporting goods' stores at a yuppie type mall might
    have them too.
                                       Denny

The "actual jersies worn by the pros" are very difficult to come by.

I've seen them advertised on occasion in the NFL Proline catalog.

It's easier to get the NFL official jersies.

If I remember, I'll try and look in my catalog tonight to see.  It
might be a tad expensive too.

HTH,
Chainsaw

    daniel
    
    
    welcome to file, there are lovely green whaler joiseys available
    also :)
    
    
    go whale
    

	Boy the whale realy took it to the Peng's last night.  Barraso
stinks!

mc

Actually mc, his defense in front of him was pretty poor also.

Krygier got a couple, and I think Ronnie Francis did too.  The
replacement goalie, whose name I forget, didn't do such a hot
job.

I just wish someone (i.e. Coach Ley) would figure out why the
Whalers aren't winning at home, in time to beat the Broons tonight...

later,
chainsaw

>Actually mc, his defense in front of him was pretty poor also.
>

	True (but that a given for the Pengs) , but I just don't like 
Barraso, even though he's a local boy.

>I just wish someone (i.e. Coach Ley) would figure out why the
>Whalers aren't winning at home, in time to beat the Broons tonight...

	They realy played well against Pit and you'd think it would carry
over, we'll see.  As usual I'd like to see the B's lose.

mc

> Nobody in the West plays defense!  

Not entirely true. They do spend more time on the skating game as opposed to 
the checking game. But both Calgary and Vancouver played excellent defense 
last year. 

And even this year, Calgary, Winnipeg and Vancouver are all among the leaders 
in the least amount of shots allowed (a good indication of strong D).

Now I'm personally also prefer 'East' hockey. Checking teams like Boston, 
Montreal, Washington, and Philadelphia are all my favorites. But you can't say 
the West doesn't play defense.....

Just my $.02

Alan S.

    How about that #10 Miller from Washington, didn't he show 
    Samuelson (6'6") from Philly that being tall doesn't mean
    he's tough (Miller levelled him). A brawl broke out when
    Hatcher of the Caps speared Tocchett at the face off circle,
    Mike Bullard skated up to Hatcher and speared him 'intentionnally'
    in the FACE. Then, all hell broke lose. Samuelson started to
    pound on Miller who responded w/ a couple of rights to the
    jaw that sent the tall boy stumbling to his knees and onto his
    ass, what a sight. The Caps-Flyers rivalry is dirtier than ever.
    
    Andy

    What game was Fred and Derek watching last night?  Fred needs a 
    seeing eye dog.  Derek is no better.  On one occasion Liut stopped
    3, bang - bang - bang.  Great goaltending.  Derek says "Awesome
    flurry by the Bruins".  Ha ha...

Gretz 2-4-6 on Tuesday...
    
    
    NHL scoring 12/21/89

		gp  g   a   pts   �  pp  sh  gw  gt  sh   %
Gretzky, LA     34  17  56  73    6   5   2   1   0 113  15.0
Lemieux, Pgh    33  20  41  61  - 7   4   2   3   0 106  18.9
Nicholls, LA    34  24  33  57    4   7   0   1   0 132  18.2
Messier, Edm    35  20  34  54    1   6   0   2   2  90  22.2
Robitaille, LA  34  27  24  51    4  11   0   4   0  97  27.8
Turgeon, Buf    34  17  32  49   20   6   0   7   0  78  21.8
Hull, StL       33  26  20  46   12   8   0   4   0 152  17.1
Nieuwendyk, Cal 35  24  21  45   23   9   2   3   0  96  25.0
Oates, StL      33  11  34  45    8   5   0   2   0  75  14.7
Gartner, Min    35  22  21  43  - 1  11   2   2   0 128  17.2
Yzerman, Det    33  21  22  43  - 1   6   2   3   0 128  16.4
Francis, Har    35  16  27  43    0   7   1   1   1  70  22.9
    

You should have watched it on Sports Channel, Karen....;^)

Bruins almost took good advantage of a severe Whaler lapse in defense
last night in the third.  Coach Ley made good use of his timeout (almost
like a hoops coach) and got the Whale back on track.

Great article in the paper which interviewed Francis and Babych on
their cooperation on THE GOAL.  Francis wanted to get it to Young,
Babych was surprised that the puck wound up on his stick, but not
as surprised as Francis to get it back.

I do disagree with Milbury that it was a fluke goal.  Late in a game
a team tries to do those things....head to the net, make something happen.

Neely is playing well below his potential, is he injured?  

Good to see Janney back....

Chainsaw

    How about the nice pass that Borque gave away in his own zone?
    He really didnt put a wholle lot on that clearing attempt. With
    25 seconds left he should have blasted that puck off the boards
    into the center ice zone. He passed it like a wuss. The Bruins are
    now 10 pts. behind the Sabres and fading. The way their playing,
    the could inhale a hockey puck through a straw.
    				RICH
    

    What sums up the great play of the Redwings?
    
    Adam Oates is outscoring Yzerman...  sigh.. wasn't that a great
    trade....

    re -1
    
    How's Bernie Federko doing with the Wings?  He was my favorite St.
    Louis Blues player.  How can you not like I guy with a name like that?
    
    jab

    Pfffffft... ok, but certainly not worth trading Oates and McLean for...

�    Pfffffft... ok, but certainly not worth trading Oates and McLean for...
     ^^^^^^^^


Gee, Walt, that looks almost like the British word Poofta.  Could you
be saying that that hockey player is a poof ;^)?????

'Saw

Big win for the Whale.

Fred whines when the other team scores....

daryll

    Trivia::
    	Only 7 NHL players don't wear helmets.
    	Name them. Answer at noon.
    
    Andy

    Rod Langway
    Craig McTavish
    
    					Steve

    re -.1
    	McTavish started wearing a helmut this year.
    
    Andy

Lufleur
Duguay

mc

    re -.1
    	Duguay got cut by the KINGS before the season started.
    
    Andy

	What about Pudubny?  Does he wear one?

mc

    
    Brad Marsh?

    Marsh, the Flower, Al Secord, Langway, can't think of the other 3.

    
    	Rod Langway
    	Al Secord
    	Guy Lafleur
    	Doug Wilson
    	Brad Marsh
    	Harold Snepsts

	Didn't Marsh start wearing one after he got slamed his head on the
ice last year (or was that the year before)?  

mc

    re .51
    	You've got 6 out of 7. The other one is an ex-Norris
    trophy winner.
    
    Andy

    
    	I think he did, he got checked and his head nailed the
    	rail at the end of the bench. Not a pretty sight.
    
    	I put him down because I wasn't sure if he is still
    	wearing one. He's having a good year with Toronto
    	if that's possible.
    
    				Dave.

    
    
    	Randy Carlyle?? 
    
    		Dave.
    

    re -.1
    	You got it.
    	To recap, the 7 helmet-less NHL players are:
    	Wilson
    	Secord
    	Marsh
    	Lafleur
    	Snepts
    	Langway
    	Carlyle
    
    Andy 

    
    Marsh wore a helmet for some time after the injury, but then
    took it off. (talk about not getting the message)
    

    
     Can anyone give me some details on the Chicago and Toronto game ?
    
    I saw a few clips and could'nt believe it, old time hockey ! Between
    last nights period of the B's game Dave Shea interviewed Gary leehman,
    he was a mess. two black eyes and his nose was slightly misaligned, but
    he still managed to get a few points last nite, good solid player.
    
    thanks,
    
    -TH

    RE: .58...Real tough game.  A big fight broke out at the end of the
    first period with no time left on the clock.  I can't remember what 
    started it all but Leehman ended up being paired off with rough and 
    tough...Denis Savard.  The two of them waltzed around for several
    minutes making faces at each other before any punches were thrown.
    Harry Neale commented..."these two boys have done more skating in
    this shift than they've done all game long".  They did trade punches
    and both got kicked out of the game.  I'm surprised to hear that
    Leehamn ended up with black eyes.  
    
    Bernie.
    
    Oh yeah!! Almost forgot....Chicago won (7-5 I think).

    The only part of the fight that I saw was Doug Wilson jumping in
    as a third man in and pummelin someone with some vicious rights.
    
    It had to be Leeman.  The guy looked real bad last night.
    
    BTW :-) The Bruins played a good game last night.  I was surprised
    that there were not more fights in this one.  I thought for certain
    that Wendel Clark would go after Neely but he didn't.  The last
    time these two teams played Michael Thelven gave a cheap shot to
    Wendel Clark and paid for it the rest of the game at the hands of
    Kordic and Clark.  I am glad that Cam is making an effort to stay
    out of the penalty box this year.
    
    Craig Janney had a big night with two goals and two assists.
    Neely also chipped in with a pair of goals.  The chemistry that
    those two have is similar in some ways to that of Middleton and
    Barry Pederson in the olden (early 80's) days.
    
    Jeff

    Can anyone out there post the scores from last nights games please..
    I didn't get a chance to pick up a paper this morning..
    
    Mtl at Van       Nyr at Pit
    Wsh at N.j.      Phi at Edm
    Det at Tor       Cgy at La
    
    thanks
    Coach.......

    re -60
    
    	It was Dave Manson who jumped in for the 3rd man in. And it
    	was Leman as he was getting hit by both Savard and Manson.
    
    	Manson got a X game suspension yesterday. X = some number I
    	forgot. I think it was 6 games.
    
    				Dave.

    re .62:
    
    Manson got ten games, added to the three game suspension he already
    had.
    
    
    py

    X = 13 games

    Coach, Paul Yankowskas has been kind enough to set up a scoreboard
    note.  Do a DIR/TITLE=SCOREBOARD and you should find what you are
    looking for.

    THE SCORE BOARD NOTE I LIKE IT ..
    
    THANKS FOR THE INFO I WILL CHECK IT OUT DAILY....
    
    THANKS PAUL FOR TAKING THE TIME FOR DOING IT.
    
    COACH..

If anyone has a schedule, can you tell me if Vancouver is playing 
at home either night of the weekend of Jan 20-21?

Thanks,
Chainsaw

    
    
    Geez, 'saw, you do some serious travelin'.  Practicing up for
    lemming-time?
    
    Jan 20-21 is the All-Star weekend.  Thus, no regular games.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    Charlie

Thanks Charlie...

Nah, I'll be up in Seattle on a little vacation, and figure to
take a drive up to Vancouver(eh) for the weekend.  I'd forgotten
all about the All-Star game...

No lemmings this year.  While the Whalers aren't blowing anyone
out in the last several games, and with Luit hurt have me a little
worried, I'm pleased with the progress I've seen this year.

This team is going to take several years to mature, and will need
to acquire several "big-play" players before they can hope to be
top echelon competitive.  But, all-in-all the attitude *has* changed
in Hartford, and I for one am glad...


thnx again,
Chainsaw

    Go  W H A L E' S
    
    Gotta Love Them Whalers !!
    
    Big Game

    The Wales Conference announced the starters for their team.
    
    C - Mario Lemieux/Pittsburgh
    LW- Brian Propp/Philadelphia
    RW- Cam Neely/Boston
    D - Ray Bourque/Boston
    D - Paul Coffey/Pittsburgh
    G - Patrick Roy/Montreal
    
                         
    

NHL scoring 1/4/90
not including last night's games

		gp  g   a   pts   �  pp  sh  gw  gt  sh   %
Gretzky, LA     40  21  64  85    9   6   2   2   0 134  15.7
Lemieux, Pgh    39  26  52  78  - 6   4   2   4   0 138  18.8
Nicholls, LA    40  27  41  68    4   8   0   1   0 154  17.5
Messier, Edm    41  23  40  63    7   6   1   3   2 103  22.3
Robitaille, LA  40  31  30  61    6  12   0   5   0 113  27.4
Yzerman, Det    40  29  30  59    4   7   2   3   0 160  18.1
Hull, StL       40  35  21  56   11  12   0   5   0 196  17.9
LaFontaine, NYI 41  35  20  55  -15  10   2   4   0 158  22.2
Turgeon, Buf    41  19  36  55   16   7   0   7   0  89  21.3
Oates, StL      40  12  42  54    6   5   0   2   0  86  14.0
    

Two points:

	a)  The Whalers looked TERRIBLE in their loss last night to
	    Winnipeg.  I'm seriously starting to think about some
	    trades for that big-play player (i.e. a Gretzky, Neely,
	    Lemeiux, P. Turgeon) that is so badly needed by this team.
	    I'm peeved!

	b)  To settle a debate:

		Are � stats kept on the power play, or only for even
	 	strenght situations?

Chainsaw

>
>	b)  To settle a debate:
>
>		Are � stats kept on the power play, or only for even
>	 	strenght situations?
>


	Only at even strength.  (it also might only be 5-on-5 but I'm not
sure on that.)

mike

    
    re: -1
    
    Could someone enlighten me here... The previous note stated a sentence
    as "Are   stats kept on the ..", could you tell me what the character
            ^
    is here ! ,,, all I get (on my VT100) is a 'checkerboard' (error
    indicator)...
    
    	Thanks
    	Mike  8^#)

�    Could someone enlighten me here... The previous note stated a sentence
�    as "Are   stats kept on the ..", could you tell me what the character
�            ^
�    is here ! ,,, all I get (on my VT100) is a 'checkerboard' (error
�    indicator)...
�    
�    	Thanks
�    	Mike  8^#)

Sure, Mike.

On a VT330 (and probably a VT2xx series terminal as well) the Compose
Character key can be used to create 8-bit characters.  These are often
foreign language symbols (umlauts, accents etc) or math symbols.

My stats question was on plus-minus, and I used the math symbol for
plus-minus (Keystrokes: Compose/plus/minus).

HTH,
Chainsaw

    
    Thanks Chainsaw...
    
    That's been bothering me for a couple of weeks....
    
    I'll have to look into getting a VT2** or VT3** series terminal....
    
    Mike 8^#)

        I believe you hold down the "compose character" key, then
    type in the first character (in this case the _) then release
    the "compose character" key and hit the second character (the +)
                                                                    
    � Bull
    
    
    
    

Not wanting to digress too much, but I've found the combos
usually make sense.

If you want the micro character, use compose, then /, then u, and
you get �.

If you want the german scharfesse, use compose s, s, and you get �.

To get umlauts, it's usually the character and the " sign.  �, � etc.

To get the official word, look at the programming manual for you
particular terminal.

Hope this helped answer the question and enhance your abilities to
reply in sports notes.

Ch�in�aw

    Just what is the � stat anyway?
                     ^---  I didn't have to hold the compose key down, just
    			   hit it once.

Okay, here's something that's sure to spark some discussion:

	In his color commentary, Gerry Cheevers has often stated
	what he feels is a need to redetermine the way power play
	statistics (and correlated penalty-killing stats) are figured.

	His reasoning is that very often, a team will, due to penalties
	which occur during a power play, end up with a man-advantage for
	a very small amount of time, say 12 seconds.

	If that team doesn't score in twelve seconds, they are charged
	for a power play, and credited with no goals.

	Power play percentage is computed by dividing number of power
	plays where you score by total power plays....  Thus, that 12
	second power play will skew the statistics somewhat.

	
First, does anyone agree with this, and second, what solutions might you
have?

Chainsaw

    How about something like earned run average?
    
    I haven't thought it through yet, but the normal power play is 120
    seconds.  In the case of a 5 minute major, 300 seconds.
    
    Now, calculate the actual time a team spends with the man advantage.
    In the case you cited, Frank, it was 12 seconds.  Add up the number
    of seconds a team is on the power play and divide by 120 to get
    the actual power play minutes.  Then, you'll have an accurate number
    for calculating power play percentage.
    
    How's that for a start?
    
    John

    re: somewhere on �
    
    You get a + if you are on the ice when your team scores even-strength 
    OR SHORTHANDED.
    
    You get a - if you are on the ice when your team allows a goal when
    you are even-strength OR WHEN YOU ARE ON A POWERPLAY.
    
    I think...
    
    Charlie

    
      What about when your team gets or gives up an empty net goal?
    Are you charged with a �?
    
    Bull
     

re power play strength similar to ERA....

That sounds like a good idea.  It would certainly make a more equitable
forumla....  I was thinking along the same lines.


re plus-minus vis-a-vis the power play...

I was talking with my brother, and he said that those stats weren't kept
during power plays.  However, in looking at the Whaler stats, there 
seems to be a correlation of a high minus value to being penalty killers.

I still don't know....


'Saw

    My biggest gripe about hockey is the points given for a goal is the
    same as an assist, it should be 2-1 or something.
    
    John

Gee, John, I guess that 'Bama and Auburn aren't the only things we
disagree about ;^) ;^)

I think they should be 1 a piece, since so many times I'll see a 
phenomenal rush up the ice, which perhaps draws defensemen and
sucker the goalie.  The player then slides the puck over to
a player on the other side, who easily flips the puck into the open
side of the net.

In scoring the goal, the rusher did most of the work, will the goal
scoring just had to handle the pass....

JMHO,
Chainsaw

PS  Just wait till Bama-Auburn NEXTED year 8^)

    And how many points do you give the guy who gets credit for a goal
    because the puck went off his skate?

    or why are there 2 people allowed on assists? For each goal, there are
    more points awarded for the assists than the guy who puts the puck in
    the net (unless, of course it was unassisted). 
    
    re: .89
    
    Unfortunately, if he is the 3rd person to touch the puck before it
    went in the net, he gets as many points as the goal scorer, 1!!
    
    John
    

�    Unfortunately, if he is the 3rd person to touch the puck before it
�    went in the net, he gets as many points as the goal scorer, 1!!
    
    I know.  I made that as a comment to the suggestion of giving goal
    scorers 2 points and assistors 1.

    I think that if a team has a power play and ends up getting penalized
    during the PP, then that should count as a full PP.  They have
    essentially blown the chance themselves.  On the other hand, the team
    that goes from a 4-on-4 to a 5-on-4 shouldn't be charged with a full
    PP. (and the shorthanded team shouldn't get credit for defending vs
    a power play).
    
    Bill

    
    Giving equal points for both goals and assists is good, because
    it rewards the play maker as well as the play finisher. The problem
    is that they hand out those second assists so freely - it's almost
    automatic. I'd like to see them be a little more judicious with
    the second assists. Like, at least make the guy be outside of his
    own zone to get in on the official scoring, for Pete's sake.
    
    Gilly
    

    Saw a flimclip from last night's Kings-Devils game ...
    
    I know Gretzky has been doing this stuff for years and it's no big deal
    anymore but last night he deliberately *caromed* a pass off the outside
    of the goal and directly onto his teammate's stick for an easy shot and
    goal.
    
    Left the poor defenseman completely bewildered ...
    
    Unreal.
    
    Bob Hunt

Canada won the Worlds yesterday by beating the Czechs 2-1. They
also needed help from Sweden to win the tourney. For Canada to
win the gold, Sweden had to beat or tie the Soviets which they did 
(5-5) w/ the last goal scored w/ 1 second left in the game. Soviets
put a protest on the game, saying the game had ended, replays 
proved otherwise. Canada and the USSR ended the tourney w/ the same
record but Canada gets the gold by virtue of their win against
the Soviets Monday (6-4). 2 Canadians made the tourney's All-Star
team: Nordiques goalie Stephane Fiset and NYI forward Dave Chysowski.
It was also the first time we got to see the NHL's top 1991 prospect,
Eric Lindros, the 16 year old was one of the top Canadians forwards.

	In other news, the Habs will be making trade and cuts w/in
the next 2 weeks. Since they have Svoboda and C.Lemieux back from
injuries there's too many players in the stands. To be traded or
cut: J.Lemieux, Keane, Gilchrist, Dufresne, Lefebvre, Desjardins.
At least 3 of them will be off to new teams or down to Sherbrooke
where Andrew Cassels has already been sent. 
	Jari Kurri got his 1000th NHL point this week, he may
be leaving the Oilers next year, he and Pocklington want more money
so a trade for cash w/ the KINGS is possible. GM Gretzky is on the 
case. 
	Pat Burns, one of the All-Star game coaches, promised not
to forget his Habs when picking the rest of the A-Star team. He 
said if "O'Reilly got away w/ it last year, why couldn't I?". 

Andy

    	Hey James, it's not just a "Bruin thing"  every damn NHL coach
    stocks the roster with his players when he gets the chance.  Coaches
    shouldn't pick the alternates.
    
    				/Don

    Re. 95
    
    I was hoping the Habs wouldn't resort to that kind of Bruin thing.
    It does not reflect well on the organization.  Who ever belongs
    on the All-Star team should be chosen and Burns should not take
    advantage of his position as coach.  Who cares about O'Reilly
    stiffing the Habs last year; he's not even around anymore.
    
    Congrats to the Junior Canadians.  It's nice to know our Canadian kids
    are number 1.
                                                                          
    James

    ooops, I deleted my note to make a couple little changes but you responded
    too quickly.
    
    I know every coach does it to some extent but last year O'Reilly
    really gave it to the Habs.  He intentionally snubbed a couple
    Canadiens.  I don't remeber who off-hand but I could look that up.
    
    Perhaps coaches should not have the responsibility of completing
    the rosters but I can't think of any unbiased source that might.
                                                    
    James

    	Looking at it from a coach's point of view, most of the players
    have incentive clauses in their contract paying them more money
    if they make the All Star game.  The coach tries to accomodate as
    many as possible.  He's damned no matter what he does.  Even though
    some writers would stiff guys they didn't like, I think the hockey
    writers should pick the alternates.  Or maybe the 2nd and 3rd place
    finishers in the fan polling.  The whole reason behind having the
    fans vote the starters is because it's supposed to be "their" game.
    
    				/Don

I've got a question, and it's really serious, it's not meant to be
funny or anything, just something I've been wondering about....


The last Whalers game I went to (they beat NJ 7-4) I saw this blind
person (white cane, a friend escorting her) making her way to her
seat.

Now, I'm not being crass or anything, and while I've worked with deaf
people a lot, I don't know much about blind people.  What would a blind
person expect to get out of a hockey game?  I'm assuming she was totally
blind, since she was being escorted....

I'm not being facetious here, I'd really like to (perhaps) learn something.

Anyone have any idea?

thanks,
Chainsaw

    
    That was the ref you saw walking in.
    
    But seriously, I have seen blind people at football and baseball
    games, too.  I assume it would be simply to be in the company of
    their friends and family.  I would think it rather cold hearted
    to take the family to a game and not take 'Uncle Fred' for a drive
    to the city, a few hot dogs, and maybe dinner afterward.
    
    I would also think that in the case of a person who formerly had
    sight, he/she would feel entirely comfortable being a part of the
    crowd, and probably envision quite clearly the field and what was
    happening on it, especially when sitting with someone who could
    describe the action.
    
    Just imagine that you were blindfolded, and were brought to a game.
    Perhaps you have a radio with you.  In a crucial situation, the
    pitcher is glaring in.  Yaz is at the plate holding his bat high.
    The rhythmic clapping and cheering is resounding all around you.
    You hear the crack of the bat and the roar of the crowd.  Suddenly
    you're on your feet with everyone else.  See?  What do you need
    eyes for?  Being there is still twice the fun.
    
    -Dick
    
    

    Re: -1
    
    Good point. I'm sure that just being there and soaking in the 
    atmosphere would be quite stimulating. Besides how many times 
    ahve you listened to a game on the radio and been on the edge
    of your seat. Maybe she had a Walkman and was listening to the 
    radio braodcast as well as the cheers of the crowd.
    
    What I wouldn't give for a half a dozen real hot-dogs.
    
    Ted (in Ireland)

    Cam Neely (30) and Bobby Carpenter (13) scored and Reggie Lemelin
    stopped 26 of 27 shots as Boston moved into 1st place in the
    Adams division last night, in Buffalo.
    
    Stephan Richer (23) scored and had two assists in the Montreal win 
    over Vancouver.  Also scoring for the Canadiens were Stephan Lebeau,
    Mathieu Schneider, Russ Courtnall and Guy Carbonneau.  

       Broons now have the bested record in the NHL!!
                                           Denny

She didn't have a walkman, that I could see, but she did have a friend
with her, who more than likely gave her the play by play.  At 
any rate, she "experienced" a really good home game (and lately that's
been rare for the Whalers).

As for the hot dogs, the Civic Centers leave something to be desired...

'Saw

    Nobody's mentionned this: Wayne GreAtzky was named 'Sportsman of
    the DECADE' last week. He beat Joe Montana by a landslide.
    
    Rick Green wants to play in Italy but Savard won't let him. If
    Savard lets him play, then he's up for grabs by NHL teams. LA
    is still interested, and GreAtzky and McNall know they need 
    defense to win in the playoffs. 
    
    Habs are starting to clean house. J.Lemieux is gone to the Hawks
    for a 3rd round pick, Dufresne and Daigneault were sent down
    to Sherbrooke. Daigneault won't report, Savard offerred him through
    waivers and nobody answered. Keane and Gilchrist were told that
    they "weren't good enough to be regulars" by Pat Burns. C.Lemieux
    is back after missing 41 games. Naslund is being benched for being
    non-productive. 
    
    	Harold Ballard is in and out of coma in Miami. I think this
    is it Leaf fans: a Stanley Cup is the 90's would seem inevitable
    if he's gone. 
    	Nordique spare goalie Mylnikov said that his defense is awful,
    his coaches don't know anything, etc... To that, Bergeron said
    that he doesn't trade or fire players but he decides who plays 
    and when, and that he shouldn't expect to be playing in the near
    future. 
    
    Andy

    Watch out NHL:
    
    Mario Lemieux finally broke out of his "slump" last night against the
    Rangers with 4 goals - giving him 31.  And he got ejected with plenty
    of time left so he could have probably had more. Man he was flying.
    
    And the Pens made a big trade with the Canucks -- Dan Quinn and Andrew
    McBain for Tony Tanti, Barry Pederson, and Rod Buskiss (sp?).  I think
    Quinn is a big loss although he was having problems scoring this year. 
    McBain hadn't showed a thing since coming from Winnipeg (boy I miss
    Cunneyworth).  Tanti and Pederson certainly were good at one time so
    maybe they'll be rejuvenated.  Buskas is a waste in my view but
    evidently the Pens players all liked him and were really p.o.'ed when
    TonyO traded him away.
    
    Craig Patrick first real move as GM.  Hopefully a good one.  The Pens
    are getting hot -- Big games wednesday against the Devs and the Caps.
    
    -- Pens Fan

    re -1
    
    
    
    I think picking up Buskas was good. They need a "tuff" defenseman
    since Kyte is not doing the job. Good trade...hate to lose Quinn
    though.....McBain just could not get it together in Pittsburgh

    Canucks also got Dave Cappuone(sp?) in that trade. Looks like
    the Pens won in the trade but they have to be hoping that 
    Pederson can play like before and that Tanti's finally recovered
    from that tumor they removed from his arm (he's never been 
    the same). 
    	Leafs beat Caps 8-6 last night, Leeman had 3 goals.
    	Mario's point scoring streak hit 31 last night, the record
    is 51, held by you_know_who.
    	Guy Lafleur declined Pat Burns' invitation to the A-Star
    game. He wants to concentrate on the Nords' problems instead.
    He suggested Joe Sakic in his place.
    	Harold's in stable condition in a hospital in Miami but
    w/ multiple problems. He's not expected back, so much so that
    the executive committee of the Gardens are taking over. Their
    first decision was to ban Yolanda from the Gardens (an insider
    said...:*) ).
        Reggie Lemelin, player of the week, hasn't lost in his last
    7 starts.
    	Other than Makarov, ALL of the Soviets in the NHL have been
    major flops.....to be continued.
    
    Andy
    

Questions:

	a) why was Mario ejected?  Sticking?

	b) can someone fill me in on the major/ejection rule for
	   high sticking?  I know you get 5 anytime you draw blood,
	   but is there an ejection associated with blood now, or just
	   the sticking call?

Thanks,
Chainsaw

    Re .109
    
    I think that someone tried to remove a tumor from Andy's head and
    goofed.  
    
    The tumor was removed from Pederson's arm, not Tanti's.  There is nothing 
    wrong with Tanti.  I think that the trade was a steal for the Penquins.
    
    pete

    So, what caused the B's big turnaround?

    	RE: Big Mac
    
    		1.  Health
    		2.  Coaching
    		3.  Every other month the Bruins play awesome.
    
    				/Don

    
    
    Mario was ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct.  His 4th goal
    came seconds into a powerplay called against the Rangers for 
    high-sticking Mario.  Looked pretty deliberate on SportsCenter
    replay, but it is hard to be sure.  Wait, it was the Rangers, 
    so I guess it was deliberate.
    
    Scoring streaks:  	51 games (Gretzky)
    			39 games (Gretzky)
    			31 games (Mario) ... and still counting
    			30 games (Gretzky)
    			28 games (Mario, Yzerman, Gretzky, Lafleur, Coffey)
    
    Charlie
    

    
    'saw, you can get ejected for elbowing, if it draws blood.
    
    C
    

So, I guess that means that any offense that draws blood (which used
to just be the 5 minute major) is now a 5 and an ejection...

Is this rule new this year (I didn't see any of last season due to
being in Europe)?

Thanks.....
'Saw

       Hey /Don, they're playing better because JD's laying offa Cam.
    Wonder who told him?
                                            Denny

    Small nit.  It's "ebbo", not "elbow", here in SPORTS.
    
    HTH.
    
    Hawk

    The NHL seems to apply the rules differently every year depending
    on which infraction they want to control.  One thing is for sure,
    there is a lot of vicious hockey being played this year.  The
    unbalanced schedule has produced many vicious rivalries.  I don't
    know how the players can take it.
    
    Can anyone else think of a year when there were so many legitimate
    contenders for the Stanley Cup.   Think about it.  My list of teams
    that have a legitimate chance of making it to the final series includes:   
    
               Montreal, Boston, Buffalo
               Whoever makes it out of the Patrick (any of four)
               Whoever makes it out of the Norris (One series from finals)
               Edmonton, Calgary, L.A.
    
    I figure fourteen teams have a chance.  I believe that any of the
    teams that make the play-offs in both the Patrick and the Smythe
    have a chance to take the division.  From there, there is only one
    team to beat to get to the finals.
    
    Maybe I'm lookig too far ahead, but like a true Habs fan I'm
    concentrating on when the real season begins.
    
    James

    /Don, was there a coaching change in Boston?  I only get the scores and
    standings, with an occasional box in my paper.
    
    Re Mario and breaking out of his slump:  It was against the Rangers ~/~

    
    Mac, the recent upswing of the Bruins can be contributed to one source.
    Our infamous former ASABET::SPORTS. As soon as Sarge (aka JD) started
    bad mouthing Can Neely (girly-mon name) and Dinz started betting the
    WhalE would finish ahead of the Bruins, the boys started to play...
    
    Either Karen or Mark passed the file on....
    
    mike

    Pens' lost 6-3 to Devils last night, Lemieux got kicked out of
    the game w/ a 10min misconduct. This is the 2nd time w/in a week
    he gets kicked out of a game, but not before he got his point
    to keeps his point scoring streak alive at 32. This guy is so
    self-centered, he even had considered skipping the A-Star game
    pre-game activities but later decided he'd enter such activities
    as the skill testing contest. Also, Guy Lafleur still declined
    Pat Burns invitation to the A-Star game after Burns offerred him
    the 'C', Sakic will replace Guy. Burns finalized his picks for
    the game, his bringing Corson, Chelios and Richer among Habs, they
    will join Roy who was voted in. 
    
    Andy

    I thought it might be interesting to take a closer look at Gretzky's
    accomplishments in the 1980's.  Here is a list of the top two leading
    scorers for the past ten years:
    
                               
                                GP    G     A      Pts
    79/80     Marcel Dionne     80    53    84      137
              Wayne Gretzky     79    51    86      137
    
    80/81     Wayne Gretzky     80    55   109      164
              Marcel Dionne     80    58    77      135
    
    81/82     Wayne Gretzky     80    92   120      212
              Mike Bossy        80    64    83      147
    
    82/83     Wayne Gretzky     80    71   125      196
              Peter Statsny     75    47    77      124
    
    83/84     Wayne Gretzky     74    87   118      205
              Paul Coffey       80    40    86      126
    
    84/85     Wayne Gretzky     80    73   135      208
              Jari Kurri        73    71    64      135
    
    85/86     Wayne Gretzky     80    52   163      215
              Mario Lemieux     79    48    93      141
    
    86/87     Wayne Gretzky     79    62   121      183
              Jari Kurri        79    54    54      108
    
    87/88     Mario Lemieux     76    70    98      168
              Wayne Gretzky     64    40   109      149
    
    88/89     Mario Lemieux     76    85   114      199
              Wayne Gretzky     78    54   114      168
    
    James

    
    
    Early in the third, Fetisov pushed Mario's head into the boards, 
    ripping off his helmet.  Fetisov got 2 for elbowing.  Later,
    Fetisov took a shot at the back of Mario's head with his stick.
    After Fetisov returned to the ice, Mario was ejected for going
    after him, although I believe a linesman caught him before he 
    actually touched Fetisov.
    
    Charlie
    
    

NHL scoring 1/11/90
not including last night's games

		gp  g   a   pts   �  pp  sh  gw  gt  sh   %
Gretzky, LA     43  23  66  89    6   7   2   2   0 147  15.6
Lemieux, Pgh    42  31  55  86  - 5   5   3   4   0 151  20.5
Nicholls, LA    43  27  43  70  - 2   8   0   1   0 162  16.7
Messier, Edm    45  23  45  68    6   6   1   3   2 113  20.4
Yzerman, Det    43  30  36  66    3   7   3   3   0 167  18.0
Robitaille, LA  43  31  30  61  - 2  12   0   5   0 118  26.3
Hull, StL       43  37  23  60   11  12   0   6   0 206  18.0
Oates, StL      43  12  47  59    8   5   0   2   0  89  13.5
Turgeon, Buf    43  19  38  57   11   7   0   7   0  92  20.7
LaFontaine, NYI 42  36  20  56  -14  10   2   5   0 163  22.1
    
    
    
    Charlie
    

    Can anyone please explain the following statistical categories to me? 
    Thanks.
    
    pp  sh  sh   %
    

    I thought that a "shot on goal" was one that either scored or
    would have scored had not the goalie blocked it.
    
    That is, shots the miss everything and hit the boards are not
    counted as "shots on goal" and the same with those that hit the
    posts or crossbar.
    
    If it would have scored into an empty net, it's a shot on goal.
    
    N'est-ce pas ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    re: .127
    
    pp	=  Power Play Goals
    sh  =  Shorthanded Goals
    sh  =  Shots on Goal
    %   =  goal pct, or goals divided by shots on goal
    
    re: .128
    
    Bob, I believe a goal into an empty net is a shot on goal.
    
    John

    
    pp := power play goals
    
    sh := short-handed goals
        
    sh := shots on goal....last year we had a discussion around what
    	exactly constitutes a shot on goal.  I don't think we ever
    	resolved it.
    
    % (shooting percentage) := goals/shots on goal * 100%
    
    
    You can tell the difference between sh and sh by the fact that
    you don't get too many sh's (13 is the single-season record [held 
    by Mario Lemieux]) and you get lots of sh's (555 in a season?  
    by Espo?)
    
    HTH,
    Charlie
    

    
    
    Ooops, I deleted my note and then reposted it, which is why
    Flyer_Bob (long may his team writhe in agony) seems to answer
    a non-existent question.
    
    Bob, I think there are some subtleties there that someone 
    brought to my attention last year.  I don't remember what
    they are, but I don't believe it was as simple as you say.
    
    Could be/probably am wrong, tho'...
    
    Charlie
    

Charlie, in some publications, I've seen sh (shots on goal) listed
as sg...  That would help dispell some of the confusion.

I do agree, you'd never have a high a numer in sh as in sh, oui?  ;^)

Chainsaw

    Any scores from last lite ?
    
    Buffallo vs Calgary ?
    
    -TH

    Harold Ballard wants to kiss and make up w/ his sons while still
    in bed in Miami. As one radio announcer said: "That's what happens
    when you get a glimpse of HELL". 
    	In other news, Habs are trying to trade Rick Green and Russ
    Courtnall(big disappointment) to the KINGS for Robitaille. In
    late Oct-early Nov, the KINGS were said to be offerring that same
    deal to Savard, but Savard expected a great season from Courtnall.
    Also, at the time Robitaille was playing sporadically on a 3rd
    line. He then went on a tear and has some 31goals. Savard had his
    chance and screwed up...again. Serge Savard is the most overrated
    GM in the league.
    
    Andy

    Hey ANdy can you name any GM in hockey who's astute to any significant
    degree? I think the consummate hockey GM was Sam Pollack with Punch
    Imlach a close second. Anybody care to add some more names (remember
    we're talkin' hockey GMs). I can't think of anybody who's much good
    can you?
    
    Ted

    There's a whole lot of GMs that are...OK but some stand out
    more than others.
    Best: 
    Sather:(never lost in a trade...Gretzky was sold)
    Quinn: (bringing the ruskies was his only mistake, albeit it
    was a big one.
    Torrey: All his Cup stars aged at the same time, he's rebuilding
    w/ a lot of patience and it's paying off.
    EJ: Knows his hockey real well. 
    
    Worst:
    Madden: main reason why Nords are so low. Came to Quebec from the
    Flyers as a reknowned scout, his picks haven't done so well.
    His trading skills leave a lot to be desired. Laughing stock of
    NHL managers. Gone by next draft.
    Develanno: Doesn't know how to trade, owner Illitch will have to
    buy him a team.
    Leaf mngr: Any of them over the last 20 years.
    
    Andy

    How about Phil Esposito as the all time worst GM.  The guy would
    make all kinds of complicated trades for second rate players and
    then get bored and trade them two weeks later.  He acted on total
    impulse.  I feel sorry for whoever has taken over his mess.
    
    How about firing Bergeron just before the play-offs!
    
    James

    Thoughest job in any sport: Coach of the Habs. Pat Burns has
    received death threats even though the team is only some 6 or so
    points out of 1st overall. 
    	In other news, future NHL superstar Eric Lindros, 16, played
    his 1st game w/ the Oshawa Generals of the Ontario Jr League
    last night. He got 2 assists and gave a lot of bone-crushing 
    checks to the opponents (Ottawa 67's). 
    
    Andy

    re: -1
    
    Who is Eric Lindros? Is that the kid who just played for Team Canada?
    
    John

           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< SON OF SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 70.56                   The "Scoreboard" Topic                     56 of 57
RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "A hard rain is gonna fall"         6 lines  15-JAN-1990 09:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In the sparse NHL coverage we get, they had a few lines saying that
    the Bruins coach, Milbury, was pissed at the Rangers for playing
    dump in hockey?  Anyone care to eloborate?  What's the problem,
    other then the fack that the Broons lost?
    
    JD
================================================================================
Note 70.57                   The "Scoreboard" Topic                     57 of 57
SALEM::DODA "Mass qualifies Noriega for welfare"      3 lines  15-JAN-1990 09:54
                                -< They lost. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THAT is the problem, JD.

daryll
    

           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< SON OF SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 70.58                   The "Scoreboard" Topic                     58 of 58
FSHQA2::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 292-2170"          13 lines  15-JAN-1990 10:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    JD, for the whole game the Rangers were playing old Toronto Maple
    Leafs style of hockey.  They had 1 forward playing up, 2 defensemen
    and the other 2 forwards back, played very patient and boring hockey
    waiting for the Bruins to make a mistake and scored the winning
    goal with 34 seconds left.  It was dull.  Milbury watched the 3rd
    period from the press box and only told his assistant coaches. 
    Sinden didn't even know where he was.  Milbury's comment was that
    if teams are going to keep playing like this the NHL is going to
    lose all its fans.
    
    It was boring but effective.
    
    John
    

    Mac,
    
    Sorry for entering in the wrong note.  John - thanks for the info.
     The news was sketchy, at best, out here.
    
    Hell, the Rangers are like 2-12 in the last month or so...
    
    JD

    Andy, you mentioned that Savard is trying to deal Courtnall and
    Green to LA. Is Green playing or sitting on the sidelines waiting
    for a trade? Hav eyou heard anything further about the trade?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ted.

    Sorry Keith, I didn't think of where it was, I just replied.
    
    John

    Eric Lindros is 6'4", 215lbs and is 16. He's as big as Mario,
    has Wayne's heart and Wendel's guts. Don't be surprised to
    see some teams 'fight' for last next year. 
    
    	Savard is at the GMs meeting somewhere in the states and
    said he was going to try and make a deal. Green and Courtnall 
    are 2 players he's trying to unload. The Habs are letting Green
    play in Italy but I don't know for how long since some NHL
    team may try to pick him up or ask that he be placed on waivers.
    	
    	A buddy of mine from Toronto was telling that the word there
    as to why Courtnall got traded so cheaply was that he and Leeman
    were bopping Iafrate's wife. This is what was said, as to the
    truth of it....only Current Affairs or Geraldo really know.
    
    Andy

    Anyone have any info on the "Great One's" brother - Keith Gretzky?
    
    Don H.
    

    Keith Gretzky, age 22, began the season playing for the Phoenix
    Roadrunners but asked to be assigned to the Ayr Raiders in the 
    British Hockey League because he has problems "keeping up with
    the big boys because of his size."  He's 5'8" and 150 lbs.

    
    
    
    According to the Hockey notesfile, he has 8 goals in 2 games over
    there...  Sounds good to me!
    
    
    Jim

    Caps fired coach Bryan Murray and replaced him w/ brother Terry
    of the affiliate Baltimore Skipjacks.
    	Leafs do it again, 7-6 against the Hawks. One barn-burner
    after another for the Buds. Clark gets winner w/ few minutes
    remaining.
    	Habs win 4-3 against Stars, Ewen gets winner (also 1st).
    Pat Burns answering reporter in Mtl on why doesn't Richer play
    more often; "isn't 32 minutes/game enough?". Reporters in Mtl
    are looking to stir s**t w/ Burns since he hasn't been too 
    pleasant w/ them as of late.
    
    Andy

    Andy,
    
    Do you know who's coaching the Leafs these days?
    
    Ted.

    re -.1
    	Doug Carpenter. Finally the Leafs hired a good coach, not
    since Roger Nielson have they done so. Carpenter used to coach
    the Leafs farm team, then went on to coach the Devils, got ousted
    by Schoenfeld after 2years(?) and last year was coaching the 
    Nords farm team.
    
    Andy
    

    Ken Linesman has been traded to philly for dave poulin. both are
    31 and both of them are centers. Poulin was the flyers captain.
    
    how does this improve the Bruins/flyers??  
    
    milbury has already said that poulin will be taking the same amoun
    of minutes that linesman had been playing (which isn't alot)
    
    i'll miss the rat!
    
    d

       Did,'t Ken start his career in Philly?
                                    Denmny

    
    
    Another Brilliant move by sinden and co. The rat is gone Poulin may not
    report.  Where does the trade lead then.
    
    -TH
     

    	Ken Linesman was a HUGE playoff performer.  He was in Millbury's
    dog house this year.  Denny, he did start his career on Philadelphia.
    Questionable move by the Bruins.
    
    				/Don

    W/ his salary? Poulin will report. Millen tried the same w/
    the Nords and still showed up (after getting more $$$). 
    As far as the trade is concerned, IMO nobody LOSES. Both 
    are excellent forward and checkers. One is faster than the
    other but not as good w/ the puck. Not only that, they're
    both leaders on and off the ice. Too close to call. If there'd
    be an edge it would be to Philly since Linesman is a 
    clutch player, especially during playoffs. 
    
    Andy
    
    P.S. Imagine, Linesman and HAxtall on the same team!

       Why in the world would Poulin not report? The Flyers have a great
    shot at missing the playoffs this year. The B's have the best record
    in the league. It's not like he's being exiled to Vancouver or Quebec.
                                     Denny
    

    Linseman played for the Birmingham Bulls of the WHA before going
    to Philly.  He had something to do with challenging pro hockey's
    age requirement at that time.
    
    John

I'm not a big expert on free-agency, or player contract agreements etc,
but I'm seeing an awful lot of players "not reporting".  

I think the system used by the NHL is going to have to be overhauled
somewhere along the line, or they are forever going to be thought of
as a second class sporting venture...

'Saw

Did anyone see the fight between Dineen and Klusak(sp) on Tues night?

Man, did Kevin connect with a viscious left.  I thought I was watching
Tyson there for a second, the way Gord dropped like a sack of new
taters...

(For me it was the ONLY highlight of an otherwise tough to watch game...)

Chainsaw (go wHaLE!)

    Free agency is coming to the NHL w/in the next 3 years.
    The only reason Poulin would have for not reporting, other
    than a REnegociation tactic is that he knows Boston is 
    very cheap when it comes negociating  salaries. Only #77, 
    & #8 will get paid a lot. Remember, the B's have the smallest
    operating budget in the NHL
    
    Andy 

    Bruins fans, you are going to *love* Dave Poulin.  If you think
    The Rat is a clutch player, just watch Poulin.   
    
    Remember the 1987 Rendezvous All-Star games against the Soviets'
    All-Stars ???   Poulin scored the game winner in the first
    contest.   He also scored an overtime goal against Montreal in The
    Forum in last year's Wales finals.
    
    He plays hurt.  He's a better defender than Linseman.  He won the
    Selke Trophy as the top defensive forward in 1987.   And he's a
    pure leader.  He took the "C" off Bobby Clarke's chest which, in
    Philly, was a major event that everyone analyzed to death.
    
    One of the Philly writers this morning wrote "Gee, I started
    writing on the Flyers beat in 1980 when they had Pete Peeters,
    Brian Propp, and Ken Linseman.   Looks like 1990 isn't much
    different."
    
    I like having The Rat back.  He will put more points on the board
    then Poulin.  But Poulin is tough to give up.  He'll be missed and
    you'l love him.
    
    Bob Hunt

    RE:-1
    
    
     I hope so because the rat is a hard act to follow, Poulin is definetly
    a better 2 way player, but there's nothing like a rat when you need
    one.
    
    -TH

    This bit of trade news opened my eyes early this morning.  I was pretty
    shocked it happened, although it was obvious the Rat was getting less
    and less ice time.  Sure will miss that fiesty sucker.  I just wish
    that Poulin was as excited about coming to Boston as the Rat is in
    going to Philly.  I don't know how the moral is on the Flyers this year
    but it's very high right now in the Bruins locker room, so he should
    get a warm welcome if/when he reports.
    
    					Steve

    Frank, the NHL won't stop being a "second rate sport" until it can be
    successfully carried on national TV.  Free agency has nothing to do
    with it.  And free agency (like in MLB, NBA, and NFL) will not happen
    until there are TV dollars.
    
    What is considered to be the reason that NHL is "second rate"?  See
    your only comment on Tuesdays Whalers/Bruins game.

    I think your using the phrase "second rate" is really saying that
    it isn't very popular with Americans because it doesn't put up as many
    points as your other sports. But the word you should use is
    "unpopular". If I'm not mistaken the NHL had a player pension plan 
    and a union before any of your other sports i.e. baseball, football, 
    basketball.
    
    I doubt very much whether most Canadians think it's "second rate".
                                   
    I do agree though that unless they can get a major American TV contract
    they will never be seen in the same light as the BIG 3.
    
    Ted.

       NHL all-star game is on NBC this Sunday. Anyone know if it's
    going head-to-head with the Magic-Isiah hair pull?
                                         Denny

re the last couple:

Personally, I love hockey.  Most nights that the Whalers are on (excluding
perhaps the West Coast road trips, when I have to get up early for
work the next day)  I'm planted in front of the tube watching them.

I meant second rate in terms of no national TV coverage.

Yeah, my only comment was about Dineen's shattering left.  Rarely have
I seen one punch like that in a hockey fight.

[aside on fighting.  I was explaining hockey to a relative neophyte the
other evening, and as I was reminiscing on hockey fisticuff history -- in
particular the Rangers-Leafs brawl in the playoffs where the goalie
for the leafs skated the length of the ice to plow Eddie Giacommin -- I
realized that fighting is *way* **down** from that past....]

But anyway, I wish there was some way to get a national tv contract
for hockey.  It has some VERY exciting elements to it...much more
exciting than basketball IMO.

But, I do feel that the front office of hockey and the refs leave something
to be desired.  Ziegler is not, IMO, really sharp....  That might
have something to do with it...


Sign me an American fan who loves the game...
Chainsaw

    'Saw, your exactly right about the fighting being down in the NHL.
    The refs are tightening on the chippy stuff. The fans really dont
    want to see cheap hockey, but no one can turn away from a good 
    brawl on the ice. Forget those girly-mon basketball slap-fights.
    Try standing toe to toe with Cam Neely and punching away on SKATES.
    	Anyway, I dont think a national TV contract is on the horizon
    as long as SportsChannel and the local markets continue to show
    the games, IMO.
    				Rich
    

    Surprised there has been nothing mentioned about all the trouble
    brewing in LA-LA land.  Owner Bruce McNall has run out of patience with
    his sub-500 team and now says the only untouchable in Whine Gretzky.
    The players have started to bicker and point fingers at each other.
    
    There are very strong indications that a trade is in the works that
    would send Bernie Nichols to the Rangers for Tony Granato and Thomas
    Sandstrom.  This trade may be announced as early as today.
    
    Could Mr Hollywood - alias Andre Watters -  fill us in on the
    situation.
    
    pete

    Nichols for Granato and Sandstrom??? Get real will ya, Pete?
    #9 is going nowhere for that price. These cheap 2 for 1 deals
    are for B's fan looking to trade Byers and Markwart for a 
    star player. If Nichols goes, and he or Robitaille may go, it'll
    be for a very good defenseman (ie. Scott Stevens, Rick Green and
    another Hab or even Mike Ramsay). The KINGS will be a playoff
    team. Wayne and the boys had a meeting yesterday to talk about
    the teams goals and work ethics. That's too bad for their next
    opponent, Pete's DEAD Wings, 'cause they'll be fired up for this
    one. McNall and Vachon aren't denying the rumours so it can
    wake up a few slumping players (Robitaille, Makela). McNall won't
    touch the KINGS nucleus, just like Sather did for the Oilers in 
    the early 80's. Expect a trade, but it'll for a low key D, hopefully
    Rick Green.
    
    Andy_who_knows_when_the_real_season_is.

�    	Anyway, I dont think a national TV contract is on the horizon
�    as long as SportsChannel and the local markets continue to show
�    the games, IMO.
    
    They had a national contract with ESPN until they got greedy and
    accepted the SportsChannel contract.

If the Kings want to get rid of Hrudey, I'd take *him* quicker
than Grant took Richmond!

I like his agressive style of goaltending.  Too bad he doesn't have
some good defense in front of him....

BTW, the Whalers-Bruins game last night was one of the best I've
seen in a long time.  Van Helemond made a few non-calls late in the
game, but despite that, Hartford still tied it up with about 11 seconds
left!  Great game....

'Saw

    RE:-.172
    
       How True about tradind Byers and MarkWART for a superstar.
    
    I'm still rolling.
    
    -TH

    Frank,
    
    You might have thought it was a great game being a gOWhale fan, but I
    was downright pissed!  The 3rd and 5th goals for gOWhale were
    incredibly lucky.  The horseshoe was in place last night.
    
    					Steve

>    
>    What is considered to be the reason that NHL is "second rate"?  See
>    your only comment on Tuesdays Whalers/Bruins game.


	If you mean fighting, I think it might have something to do with it
but it's not the main issue.  The main reason the NHL is 'second rate" is
becuase it is not played recreationaly by alot of Americans (especialy
in the south.)  I don't think the NHL will ever be one of the big sports 
in this country.  Personaly that realy doesn't bother me, as long as
I can watch the games!  The people who don't are the ones missing out.  
The only problem in the NHL now is the playoff system (same as the NBA.) 


Mc

>[aside on fighting.  I was explaining hockey to a relative neophyte the
>other evening, and as I was reminiscing on hockey fisticuff history -- in
>particular the Rangers-Leafs brawl in the playoffs where the goalie
>for the leafs skated the length of the ice to plow Eddie Giacommin -- I
>realized that fighting is *way* **down** from that past....]

	or Stan Jonathan hitting upwards to destroy Pierie (?) Bouchard.
Wensyk chalenging the whole north stars bench....  boy...just thinking of
it makes you want to order one of those greatest fights vidieos from
the back of the Hockey News.  Hockey's the #2 sport behind Baseball in
my book!

	Ohh yea Frank, I wasn't to inmpressed with Dineen's bunch  
heck I coulda landed a one like that, Kluzac had his right down just
inviting a left to the noggin!

	Great comeback by the Whale last night they were just plain
out hustlin the B's to the puck for most of the 2nd and 3rd periods.  
Meanwhile MTL looses to the incredibly hot Isles.  BOS and Calg should
be a good one tonight!

	Again who cares about national TV and all that.  Long as I can see
the games.  Heck we could end up with mushberger anouncing them....  I
just wish I could get a Mtl station so I could see the Habs games...or pick
up Hockey Night in Canada.

mc

>    You might have thought it was a great game being a gOWhale fan, but I
>    was downright pissed!  The 3rd and 5th goals for gOWhale were
>    incredibly lucky.  The horseshoe was in place last night.
 
	yea, they were but hartford got to a position where they mattered 
by simply out hustling Boston.  They were beating the B's to the puck with
regularity late in the game.  The B's were lucky to escape with a tie!  They
were letting hartford skate all over them the last two periods.  

Mc

Also, as Cheevers mentioned (and he should know) Moog was not playing
particularly aggressively.  He was well inside the crease on several
of those goals, so I wouldn't call them lucky.

And even if they were lucky, all around it tends to even out.  In
the recent OT against Edmonton, Hartford outshot them 6-0 in OT, and
the game winner that never was came as close as the post.

In that final scramble *anything* can happen, and last night, it went
our way.  Besides, Boston was incredibly lucky to get the non-calls
of Van Helemond...especially on the Bourque trip of Verbeek.

Still, you have to admit it was an exciting game....

later,  I'm going on vacation!
'Saw

    
    Hey Frank, have a nice vacation.  And stay away from those relative
    neophytes you mentioned in .169.  They could land you in jail.
                                       
    -Dick
    
    

    
    Yeah, and Frank, stay off of Onan's path, willya?  :-)
    
    H'awk

    KINGS 9-4 over DEADWings last night, GreAtzky 2-2, Robitaille
    and Krushelnyski each 2, and so on. As mentionned before, 99
    gave the players a speech 2 days ago and again that LEADERship
    was felt in last night's game. 
    
    	Where are you Pete,...flying low? 
    
    Andy :*)

    kings were way over due, had lost like 3 in a row at home
    
    
    dinz_wh0_loves_janet_JONES
    

    Re .183
    
    Leadership has nothing to do with it.  All the players were scared at
    being traded away from their beach resort.  
    
    I guess that the Kings win last night makes them the team to beat this
    year ;-).  They are now playing .500 hockey (which is good for 4th in
    most divisions).  The Wings are 9 points behind LA's torrid pace.
    
    pete :-)

    STUPID! STUPID! STUPID! STUPID! STUPID!
    
    What were the KINGS thinking of last week when they decided
    to trade Nichols to NYR for Sandstrom and Granato. How can
    anyone trade one of the best goal scorers in the league
    for a good swede and an american who did good as an old-rookie
    last year and who's a flop this year? They even waited for
    the A-Star weekend to announce it, LA didn't need to publicize
    this STUPIDITY of a trade. Scott Stevens is said to be available,
    why didn't they try to get him and fill a big hole on D, but
    noooooo, STUPIDITY prevailed. LA players were in shock and so
    were their fans.
    
    Andy

All-Star game records held by Mario Lemieux:

	Most MVPs in a career: 3 (out of a possible 5!)
	Most hat tricks in a career: 2
	Most goals in a game: 4 (tied with Gretzky)
	Most points in a game: 6 (3-3-6)


Gretzky is 10-3-13 in 10 All-Star games.
Lemieux is 9-5-14 in 5 All-Star games.

    
    Charlie
    
    

>    Nichols for Granato and Sandstrom??? Get real will ya, Pete?
>    #9 is going nowhere for that price. These cheap 2 for 1 deals
>    are for B's fan looking to trade Byers and Markwart for a star player.
    
>    McNall won't touch the KINGS nucleus, just like Sather did for the Oilers 
     in the early 80's. Expect a trade, but it'll for a low key D, hopefully
>    Rick Green.
    
>    Andy_who_knows_when_the_real_season_is.
    
    
    Hey Andy, I guess Nicholls wasn't part of the King's nucleus. :-)  
    
    The rumour now is that both Sandstrom and Granato are on their way to
    Edmonton for Kurri so he can be reunited with Gretzky (who really
    showed his stuff yesterday ;-) ).   If that trade is made, LA will be giving
    up goals even faster.  Did you see the All-Star game?  Kurri and
    his linemate must have been on the ice for at least 6-7 goals against
    (and not too many for).
    
    pete

    Pete,
    	I knew you'd be in here, rubbing it in. Looks like McNall
    wants to be the next Steinbrenner and have a puppet as a GM.
    
    Andy

    You have to admit, though, that Lemieux had a much better team to
    work with, especially Cam Neely and Brian Propp. Was it me or did
    the goaltending stink. 19 goals in 1 hockey game!! I think that
    was needed if the NHL is ever going to get a national TV contract.
    			Raider_Rich
    

    	It's pretty hard playing goal when nobody's playing defense.
    
    				/Don

    Has anyone heard what the status is with Dave Poulin? He was given
    a deadline or all deals are out! 

    It was nice to see that Nichols was still given a spot on the All Star
    team even though he had switched conferences.  

    First I heard of the Nichols trade.  As you cain gather, the NHL
    doesn't get much coverage here.  The local Western Hockey team,
    the Seattle Thunderbirds, does get a lot of coverage, and last week,
    they outdrew the Sonics.  Thunderbirds are 31-13 on the season.
    Folks are lobbying for an NHL franchise....
    
    JD

    Poulin will play for the B's, most likely tonight against
    the Nords. BTW, Sinden gave in and Poulin gets an extension
    on his contract. 
    	Daniel Berthiaume was trade to the Stars from Winnipeg
    for 'a player to be named later'. 
    	Watch for another trade; Joe Cirella from the Nords
    to Winnipeg for Doug Smail.
    
    	A reporter talked to GreAtzky, Duchesne and Robitaille
    about the Nichols trade, all 3 were against it. Looks like
    the deal was all Vachon's idea. 
    
    Andy

    The report I heard said that Gretzky did have something to do with the
    Nichols trade.  Apparently he wants a European type player on the wing
    with him.
    
    pete

    RE -.1
    	Well you heard wrong. 99's best buddy on the team was 
    Bernie. Vachon and the KINGS got shafted and I hope Roggie
    is next. BTW, I saw the weekly NHL bloopers the other night,
    mainly involving the DEAd-Wings. :*)
    
    Andy
    

    Andy, you are getting most of your information from the Ottawa Sun
    which as we all know is a tabloid newspaper (like the Enquirer).  The
    only good thing about it is the Sunshine girl on page 3 (especially
    when they feature Angel).
    
    pete

    re -.1
    	Actually most of the information I get about the NHL is
    from TV Sports or a radio show from Montreal w/ Mario Tremblay
    every weekday from 5-7pm. For those who don't remember 
    Mario, he's the old #14 for the Habs. As far as the 99-9
    relationship, that was on TV. Funny they never mentionned
    Yzerman's name during the A-star game, but then again nobody
    cares about last place teams especially when they're 
    behind the Leafs. :*)
    
    Angel says: 'Hhhhiii.. ;*0 '
    
    Andy

    Life after Harold may be starting pretty soon. Ballard's in
    a Miami hospital and some reports are saying he'll be done
    w/ this life w/in 24hrs. The Hospital denies these reports.
    If he does die that would mean that the Leafs would have to
    be taken seriously again (not since '67). 
    
    	Mario's Pens lost AGAIN last night but he got his point 
    to extend the streak to 36.
    
    Andy

    re .200
    
    No, they sure didn't mention Yzerman's name as much as Gretzky.  All we
    kept hearing was how Gretzky hadn't done anything at all or gotten any 
    points...over and over again.  Meanwhile, Yzerman was quietly racking
    up a goal and 2 assists and together with Robitaille and Hull, made up
    the best line for the Campbell side.  Crisp should have put that line
    together before the 3rd period.  Not like your buddy 99 and his
    bum buddy Kurri, who were on the ice for at least 6 goals against.
    
    have a good day Andre :-)
    
    PS.. at least they can beat Vancouver.

    
>    	Mario's Pens lost AGAIN last night but he got his point 
>    to extend the streak to 36.
>    Andy
    
    Whaddya mean, AGAIN!?  Makes it sound like the Pens are in
    a Ranger-like slump...   They're 7-3-1 over the last 11
    (8 of those against Patrick teams) which I am quite satisfied
    with.
    
    Anyway, BURKE ALWAYS GIVES THE PENS FITS.  THEY'RE 1-3-1
    AGAINST HIM THIS YEAR.
    
    Charlie
    

    
    Buffalo beat the Flyers last night to move back into 2nd overall
    tied with Chicago at 58 pts.  Now comes a big HOME-N-HOME series
    with the Blackhawks starting tonight and finishing on Friday.  This
    could push one team ahead by 4 pts or just leave them tied after
    all is said and done.
    
    Here's hoping the Sabres have 62 pts after Friday.
    
    Newc

NHL scoring 1/25/90
not including last night's games

		gp  g   a   pts   �  pp  sh  gw  gt  sh   %
Gretzky, LA     48  27  71  98    7   7   3   2   1 167  16.2
Lemieux, Pgh    47  34  59  93  -10   6   3   4   1 172  19.8
Messier, Edm    49  27  49  76    8   8   1   3   2 127  21.3
Nicholls, LA-NYR48  27  48  75  - 6   8   0   1   0 176  15.3
Yzerman, Det    48  32  40  72  - 1   7   3   4   0 188  17.0
Hull, StL       48  44  26  70    7  17   0   7   0 230  19.1
LaFontaine, NYI 49  40  28  68  -10  10   2   7   0 188  21.3
Robitaille, LA  48  35  31  66  - 5  14   0   5   0 129  27.1
Savard, Chi     47  21  42  63   10   9   1   2   1 136  15.4
Turgeon, Buf    48  20  43  63   11   8   0   7   0  99  20.2
Francis, Hart   48  19  44  63  - 2   8   1   2   0  96  19.8
    

    Hi, I'm a Montreal fan and it really annoys me that whenever the
    leading scorers names are posted you always leave out the Montreal
    players!!!!
    
    
    
    Just fooling, I don't think we've had one since Guy.
    
    Ted. 

    There is a report that the recent LA-NYR trade also involved Edmonton
    at one time.  Supposedly those Ranger players were going to the Oilers
    instead with Jari Kurri going to LA.  It seems that if Kurri isn't
    playing in LA with Wayne next year, then he will accept a million $$
    contract to play in Switzerland.
    
    pete
    

    OK, I'm stumped.  How does one calculate the plus minus for each
    player.
    
    The Wizard

       I think a + is for being on the ice whan a goal is scored by
    your team and a - is for a goal by the other team.
                                         Denny

    Power play and shorthanded situations are not included in that stat.
    			Raider_Rich
    

Wayne Gretsky, commenting on the All-Star game:

On his poor performance - "When you look back on my career a few years down
the road, I don't think anyone's gonna say 'He had a bad game in Pittsburgh
one night'."

On the high score of the game: "A touchdown would have put us ahead!"

Alan S.

    How 'bout this for a scoop:
    	Last night on Mario Tremblay radio show, just before the
    Habs-Nords game, Mario said that a person 'very very close
    to the Nords organization' (aka 'an insider said') that Nords
    owner Mr. Aubut will clean house after the '90 draft and
    keep only Bergeron on. They tried to confirm this last night
    but nobody could. More to follow.....
    
    In other news, Denis Potvin's #7 will be retired from the 
    Ottawa 67's Friday night. Denis played for the Jr team from 
    the time he was 13 til he was 19. He's also an Ottawa native.
    
    Wendel Clark sent another player off the ice and to an hospital
    as he decked a 'Stars player and his team won another one.
    Leafs are blossoming as Harold is falling.
    
    Andy

Touching on what JD reported a while back,  I had the opportunity
to attend a Seattle Thunderbirds game a while back.  What a great
time!

The fans are more into the game than fans in Boston or Montreal.
The beer is cheap, and there is plenty of end to end action.
The checking is fierce, and it looks even better because the board
in the corners are kinda loose and the really move when the players
plow into them....

The score?  Seattle beat TriCities 10-6.  (last Saturday they
beat Victoris 17-3...  I think Denver was actually skating for
Victoria that night!)

Chainsaw

    NHL scoring, 1/30/90, last night's games not included.  
    
    		gp  g   a   pts
Lemieux, Pgh    50  36  64 100
Gretzky, LA     50  28  71  99
Messier, Edm    51  29  55  84
Nicholls, LA    50  30  48  78
Yzerman, Det	50  35  42  77
Hull, StL	50  45  29  74
LaFontaine, NYI 52  43  29  72
Robitaille, LA	50  35  34  69
Turgeon, Buff	51  24  44  68
Kurri, Edm	50  25  42  67
    

    -< aaaaaahhh, things are right in the NHL again... >-
    
    After last night's 4-2 Montreal win in Boston I couldn't agree more.
    After the back to backers against Boston the upcoming games against
    Buffalo pale on the Richter excitement scale.  Or should I say the
    Richer excitement scale.
    
    I think Kordic has been handed a two game suspension for jumping
    Modano from behind.  When asked, Brian O'Neil said that he didn't
    think there was a problem with pay-back type infractions in the
    NHL.  This guy lives under a rock.
    
    I still can't understand how both Pittsburgh and L.A. can be such
    mediocre teams.  They both seem to have enough talent and they are
    both armed with phenoms at center.  Anyone want to explain this?
    
    Anyone notice that Calgary has quietly climbed back into it.  There
    is no way that you can count them out.  Especially when they start
    getting hungry around play-off time.                              
    
    Any trade rumours out there?  Gretzky and Robitaille for a couple
    of defensive defencemen? 
    
    James

    I have looked in the scoreboard note #70 and I didn't seen any scores
    for Friday nights NHL games ..If someone knows them please post or send
    me mail please .ROYALT::COULOMBE
    
    THE GAMES WERE  WSH at NYI
                    EDM at Pit
                    Tor at Det
                    Van at Wpg
    
    Thanks..

    Pitt 6 Edm 3
    Det  5 Tor 2
    Wpg  9 Van 1 (may have been 8-1)
    NYI  5 Wash 3 ( or something like that)
    
    pete
    

    
    NYI  5  Wash 3
    Pitt 6  Edm  3
    Det  5  Tor  2
    Winn 8  Vanc 1
                
    Bull
    

    And the really big news today....
    
    Bob Probert is to be released today from prison in Minnesota.  Pending
    the appeal of his deportation order, he is eligible to return to the
    Red Wings on or around March 5.  
    
    pete

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

		gp  g   a   pts
Lemieux, Pgh    53  40  70 110
Gretzky, LA     53  29  76 105
Messier, Edm    55  31  60  91
Yzerman, Det	53  40  44  84
Nicholls, LA    53  31  52  83
Hull, StL	53  49  31  80
LaFontaine, NYI 55  44  31  75
Kurri, Edm	54  28  44  72
Turgeon, Buff	55  25  47  72
Robitaille, LA	54  36  35  71
.
.
Neely, Bos	53  38  29  67		(14th)
.
.
Coffey, Pgh	53  19  46  65		(17th)
.
.
Richer, Mon	56  32  31  63		(20th)
.
.
Bourque, Bos	55  14  49  63		(22nd)
    
    
    
    Charlie
    

   Mario Lemieux today leads the National Hockey League in career
goals per game scored, passing Wayne Gretzky on the all-time chart.
Ironically, he surpassed Gretzky with his 3-goal performance against
the Edmonton Oilers on Friday night.

		
	                     goals    games    gpg
	----------------------------------------------
	|  Mario Lemieux  |   340   |  421  | .8076  |
	----------------------------------------------
	|  Wayne Gretzky  |   666   |  827  | .8053  |
	----------------------------------------------
    
    
Much like Ryan and Carleton traded the career strikeout lead for a 
few weeks, Mario and Wayne will probably trade the career goals per
game lead for a while.  

    1 more/less goal -- would increase/decrease Mario's gpg by .0024
    1 more/less goal -- would increase/decrease Wayne's gpg by .0012


When both have retired, who will lead?

Mario will probably experience the same scoring decline Wayne is seeing as 
he heads toward the end of his career.  Mario's first four years in the league
were not as productive as Wayne's first four (due largely to the quality of 
his supporting cast).  However, I think that Mario's next five years will be
so great (I predict at least one 100-goal year) that he will end his career 
with a goals per game average over .850.  Mario Lemieux: the greatest goal-
scoring machine the National Hockey League has ever seen.

    
Charlie

    
    
    As JaKe pointed out a few ago, Mario's scoring streak now
    stands at 42 games.  The 52nd game of this streak will be 
    played against Montreal, which is also the last team to 
    shut him out.  (Recall that Gretzky's record streak is 51 
    games.)
    
    Tex and Coach, what do you think the odds are that Montreal
    can shut Mario out again?  What do you think the odds are if
    I go up there and shoot Roy during warmups?  :-) :-) :-)
    'Saw, what calibre weapon do I need for this type of game?  :-)
    
    
    Charlie

Gee Charlie....

You might ask one of the regular hunters (where's Lufay when ya need him???)
but I'd take one of those Sniper Specials, that breaks down into a few
smaller pieces.

Have a good scope, .30 caliber ammo should do you fine.

'Course you could always take the 'Saw's approach...stride brazenly in
with an M60 machine gun (a la Rambo) and mow down everything that moves.
Usually works...

HTH,
Chainsaw

    Well Pittsburgh is in Montreal and i think the Canadiens won't worry
    about Mario's streak if it reaches that far.
    
    If it happens then it happens let's just win the game 2 points is the
    name of the game.
    
    Mario's home town right.. old well what the heck good luck Mario hope
    it happens.
    
    Coach...

    How have the Penguins been doing while Mario's been streaking?
    
    Bernie.

    
    re: -.1
    
    Pens are 20-20-2 during Mario's streak; 3-6-2 before it started.
    
    More to the point, the Pens are 2-12 in last two years in games 
    in which Mario does not play due to injury or does not score.
    
    
    Charlie
    
    

    And for all personal glory, Mario will never be able to lead a team
    like Wayne has, Mario will retire never having played in a Stanley
    Cup final, and never having lifted the games of his fellow
    teammates above and beyond their normal talents, like Wayne has.
    
    Mario is a great hockey player, no doubt about.  A scoring machine.
    He just is lacking that ingredient to be a real winner, like Wayne.
    
    IMO
    
    JD

    I guess the Bruins are showing that a scroring machine isn't
    everything.  They have one of the best records in hockey and no point
    scorers in the top 10 (and only 1 barely in the top 20).

    re-1
    
    Very good point about defense and winning.  Look at the Bruins,
    Sabres and Canadiens...they have been 1-2-3 in defense almost all
    season and have been in the top 6 of all teams at the same time.
    
    Newc

    I agree with the last two. Having a big scorer is very exciting
    but winning is even more exciting. If the Bs or Cs or Sabres lose
    someone it's not as big a worry for the rest of the team because
    the dependancy isn't as great. 
    
    Thanks Charlie for giving us Neeley, Richer etc... in the points
    leaders even though they're not in the top ten. You still have Nicholls
    listed as playing for LA though.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Ted.

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    re: -.2  
    
    Right....fergot to change that.  Thanks.
    
    re: Devilin
    
    Pens lost to the Isles in an 8-7 shootout.  Barasso stopped 
    20 of 28 shots.  Gosh, wonder how good the Pens would be if 
    Grant Fuhr (in his prime) were playing goal?  Gosh, wonder if 
    that would have any effect at all on their Stanley Cup chances...  
    Nah...   
    
    Mario was 2-3-5 but he should have done more, damn it!  He should
    have played goalie, scored all 7 goals, and served all the penalties.
    Damn it, when is he going to step up and be a winner?
    
    Embittered by the BS,
    Charlie

    Charlie,
    
    Good players make those around him better - look at Bird and Magic,
    for instance.  They control the team.  They control the flow.
    
    Look at Gretzky - look at the year Kruzilinski (fromthe Broons)
    had when he was on Wayne's line.  Since Wayne is happy to set up
    the play, and not on a simple ego trip to score allthe goals himself,
    he builds a team around him.
    
    Hey Charlie, sorry if you caint accept any criticism of your idol.
    Tough.  I noticed you didn't start the season with your Mario updates
    since he was in a 'slump', and didn't start putting the stuff in
    until he was catching Wayne.  
    
    Like I said, he's a great player, to that you get no arguement.
    But I guess Mario and his adorers can fawn over All-Star game MVP's,
    while the true great one can admire Stanley Cups.
    
    I'd take a team oriented superstar like teh Great One over a Mario
    any day of the week.
    
    Mario's not a rookie anymore.  Why haven't the Pens consistently
    improved.  Why hasn't he lifted the other players up?
    
    JD

    Mario scores so much because he cherry_picks. He just hangs out in the
    oppositions zone waiting for the pass.
    
    I've seen him many times and this is what he's done.
    
    JoJ

    re .229-.231:
    
    I'll second what was said about the importance of good defense in
    hockey.  The second period of last Thursday's Bruins-Canadiens game was
    a perfect example.  Boston kept things in Montreal's end most of the
    period and controlled play, yet could only manage a 2-1 lead after two
    periods because of superb defense by Montreal.  This kept the Canadiens
    in the game until they were eventually able to score a couple of third
    period goals and win the game. 
    
    
    py

    
    
       Does anyone have Mario's +_ compared to Wayne's +- rating ?
    That  would be interesting to see.
    
    I heard that mario was on the ice for 2 shorthanded goals the other
    nite while on the power play, heard it from Buicik while listening 
    to B's . I have to agree with the latter response on leadership roles,
    Mario will never equal Greatski in that department, nor will they 
    have a cup with the defense that they have. Coffey as a defenseman is 
    the biggest joke I have ever seen. Great puck handler but defensive
    ability is almost non existant when comparing it to Housley, Bourque,
    Langway to name a few.
    
    -TH

>>Mario's not a rookie anymore.  Why haven't the Pens consistently
>>improved.  Why hasn't he lifted the other players up?
    
    I was under the impression they had improved.  No they haven't won the
    cup, but they have improved, no?
    
    RE: cherry picking
    
    If it gets the job done and the team wins, what's the deal?  A goal is
    a goal.  If the other team is stupid enough to let a player the
    calibre of Lemieux cherry pick, they deserve to be scored on.  
    
    And surely you're not saying that that's where even a majority of his
    goals come from.  Didn't see much cherry picking in the All-Star Game
    ('course didn't see much defense there either 8-)). Just jealous
    because you root for one of the aforesaid "stupid" teams who can't stop
    him?
    
    	--dan'l	
    
    

    Mario the cherry picker has a minus rating (something like -8).  Against 
    Toronto on Saturday he was BRUTAL defensively...but he did keep his
    steak alive.
    
    Bernie.

    
    
    Mario couldn't back-check his way out of a paper bag...unfortunately,
    he has never been asked to.  If he would just play SOME defense, this
    guy would be great...8')!
    
    
    Jim

    
JD,
>    Hey Charlie, sorry if you caint accept any criticism of your idol.

Not true at all.  Mario has his faults, but a lack of leadership isn't 
one of them.  I follow the Pens closely and I disagree.  Pick on his 
faults and I'll agree (or probably just not argue :-) ).  What I caint 
accept is people who are wrong. :-)

For example,
>    Since Wayne is happy to set up
>    the play, and not on a simple ego trip to score allthe goals himself,
>    he builds a team around him.

The implication is that Mario *is* on an ego trip.  Not true at all.  He
had 114 assists last year (same as Gretzky).   He has 73 assists this year
(3 fewer than Gretzky).  I've seen him play, I don't think he's selfish.  

>    Look at Gretzky - look at the year [Krushelnyski] (fromthe Broons)
>    had when he was on Wayne's line.  

Look at the year Robby Brown had last year (49-66-115) when he was on
Mario's line.  Vanbiesbrouck called him a "goal sucker" and said he
was riding on Mario's coattails.  Look at the year he's having now.
(Don't have the numbers in my haid, but he's under 20 goals.)

>    Tough.  I noticed you didn't start the season with your Mario updates
>    since he was in a 'slump', and didn't start putting the stuff in
>    until he was catching Wayne.  

Definitely not true.  About the only thing I put in OURGNG::LDUC is the 
scoring summaries.  And I've been putting them in every Tuesday and Thursday 
that they appear in the Globe since the beginning of the season.  And every
Tuesday and Thursday until last week, Mario was not leading.  I put in a 
note about Mario's All-Star game records after he set a few more last month.
I guess I should have put that one in at the beginning of the season?  I put 
in a note saying that Mario passed Gretzky in career ppg after he did that
last week.  I guess maybe I should have put that one in at the beginning of
the season too.  Sorry.
    

>    But I guess Mario and his adorers can fawn over All-Star game MVP's,
>    while the true great one can admire Stanley Cups.

Hey, that's a legitimate point.  Mario doesn't have a Stanley Cup.  WG has
four (4); Mario has zero (0).  No argument because that's no BS. 
    
>    Mario's not a rookie anymore.  Why haven't the Pens consistently
>    improved.  Why hasn't he lifted the other players up?

Because he has Robby Brown, not Jari Kurri.  Because he has John Cullen,
not Mark Messier.  Because he has Randy Hillier, not Kevin Lowe.  Because
he has Tom Barrasso, not Grant Fuhr.  

Charlie

    re: �
    First, IMHO, it's a garbage stat.  It's too goalie-dependent.  It 
    *is* useful for comparing lines within a team.  Secondly, the whole 
    damn Penguin team is negative.  Mario is too.

    Last year, Mario was +41.  Gretzky was +15, Yzerman was +17.
    See what I mean?  garbage, right?

    Mario can backcheck.  He does it quite well.  He ate the Rangers alive 
    backchecking in the playoffs last year.  And he must have picked 
    Gretzky's pocket 5 times in the All-Star Game.  HOWEVER, he does 
    not backcheck during the regular season.  That is a coaching decision, 
    not his.  (Although I'm sure he likes it.)  

    If you have the best offensive player in the game, do you want him 
    deep in the zone when there is a turnover?  Or do you want him in 
    open ice in the neutral zone where he can get the puck on a pass,
    carry it across the blue line, and dump it or take it to the net?
    Just asking...  FWIW, the Pens like to do it the latter way.
    
    Gots to get back to work..see yinz tomorrow,
    Charlie

    
    
    If in fact Mario was told not to back check then the Penguins are going
    nowhere.  if he is supposed to be such a leader, then he should play a 
    complete game, NOT just offense.  He is constantly leaving his team
    short handed on the defnesive zone as he waits for the long pass.  That 
    is not the sign of a leader, it is the sign of a Cherrypicker, when he
    starts playing a complete game, then he will truley lead by example,
    not just by putting the puck in the net.
    
    Jim

    re: .238
    
>>    And surely you're not saying that that's where even a majority of his
>>    goals come from.
    
    No, I'm not.
    
    >> Just jealous
    >>    because you root for one of the aforesaid "stupid" teams who
    >>can't stop  him?
    
    The last four times I saw him live, he had one goal, two assists, and
    was completely shut out once. So, apparently the team I root for
    doesn't fit your stupid "stupid" opinion.
    
    And why would I be jealous? I don't play in the NHL or own an NHL
    franchise. Ya know, if Mario set every record possible, it wouldn't 
    change my life any...geez, you sound like a Bronco fan.
    
    JoJ

NHL scoring 2/8/90
not including last night's games

		gp  g   a   pts   �  pp  sh  gw  gt  sh   %
Lemieux, Pgh    54  42  72 114  -18  12   3   4   1 209  20.1
Gretzky, LA     54  29  77 106    4   9   3   2   1 179  16.2
Messier, Edm    56  31  60  91   14   9   2   3   2 149  20.8
Yzerman, Det    54  40  44  84    2   8   4   5   0 228  17.5
Nicholls, NYR	53  31  52  83  - 5  11   0   1   0 201  15.4
Hull, StL       54  50  32  82   11  18   0  10   0 256  19.5
LaFontaine, NYI 56  47  34  81  - 6  11   2   7   0 215  21.9
Robitaille, LA  54  37  36  73    0  18   0   6   0 142  26.1
Kurri, Edm	55  29  44  73   18  14   1   1   1 151  19.2
Turgeon, Buf    55  25  47  72   11   9   0   8   0 126  19.8
Coffey, Pgh	54  20  50  70  -16  10   0   3   0 226   8.8
Oates, St.L	54  14  56  70   10   8   0   2   0 115  12.2
    
    
    Yo JD, this is the 17th update of the NHL scoring I've put in
    here this season dating back to November.  Want to see the first one?  
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Not including last night's games.  Gretzky was 3-3-6.  And Mario was 0-1-1.
		gp  g   a   pts
Nieuwendyk, Cal	13  11  13  24
Yzerman, Det    12   8  14  22
Makarov, Cal    13   3  18  21
Gretzky, LA     12   6  14  20
Kurri, Edm      12   9  10  19
Messier, Edm    12   8  11  19
Stastny, Que    11   6  12  18
Lemieux, Pgh    11   5  13  18
Reinhart, Van   12   5  13  18
Murray, Chi     14   9  8   17
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Want to see the second one?
    
NHL scoring 11/2/89, not including last night's games.
		gp  g   a   pts   �  pp  sh  gw  gt  sh   %
Gretzky, LA     13   9  17  26  - 1   3   1   1   0  41  22.0
Nieuwendyk, Cal	13  11  13  24   13   5   0   0   0  37  29.7
Yzerman, Det    12   8  14  22  - 1   3   2   1   0  47  17.0
Nicholls, LA    13  10  11  21    2   3   0   0   0  46  21.7
Makarov, Cal    13   3  18  21   15   1   0   0   0  23  13.0
Lemieux, Pgh    12   5  15  20  - 7   0   0   1   0  36  13.9
Murray, Chi     15  10   9  19    4   2   0   4   0  34  29.4
Kurri, Edm      12   9  10  19    7   2   1   0   1  27  33.3
Messier, Edm    12   8  11  19    0   3   0   0   0  26  30.8
Stastny, Que    11   6  12  18   -5   4   0   0   0  27  25.9
    
    Want to see the third one?  Or is that enough to demonstrate
    that I was putting these in whether Mario was doing well or
    not?
    
    Charlie
    
    

    
    
    Re.242
    
    +- stat, I believe is not a garbage stat, sure it is goalie dependant
    but if you look at the +- rating of Coffey and Lemuiex you can see that
    they give up more goals than they score. Garbage  ? They are also in
    the cellar of their division. Kind of says that they don't know what
    defense is all about.
    
      As far as being goalie dependent, take the adams division with the
    top goalies in the league (6) and check with some of the folks and you
    will see the likes of Ray Bourque (+20 something). So if it is a
    garbage stat then how do you explain that the leading teams and players
    have good plus minus ratings?
    
    
    
    -TH 

    
    Re -.1 (why isn't +- a good stat?):
    
    I think you've made the point perfectly.  It's a team-dependent stat, 
    not a personal stat.  Has anyone explained yet the difference between
    Lemieux' +- last year and this year?  Has he really fallen that far
    that fast?
    
    What we have here is more unsupported, count-the-title-rings, 100% 
    gratuitous SPORTS idol-bashing at its worst.  Wayne Gretzky may never
    even get the opportunitity for another Stanley Cup, and that won't make
    him any less a player than when he was with Edmonton.  A guy excels for
    one of the league's traditionally underachieving teams, therefore he's
    not a team player.  A guy excels in a well-run, well-designed
    organization and he's a saint.  Unbelievable.
    
    glenn
    

    
    Has anyone in Minnesota heard anything more about the Northstars
    moving to Oakland?  What is the story up there?
    
    Bruce

    
    
    Anyone of you WHale fans know the Injury status of Dave Babych?
    
    
    Jim

    Last year, you were in here mewing over Mario every single day,
    this year, it didn't seem to pick up til he started his little
    streak, and the Pens started winning.   
    
    Whatever.  I ain't arguing no more.  Mario will never win the
    cup.
    
    JD

    re .249
    
    About the North Stars move to Oakland:
    
    Apparently, the Minny owners want extensive renovations done to the Met
    Centre (including private boxes, etc) which would cost 15 million.  The
    group which oversees the operation of the Met Centre say that they only
    have about 1 million to put towards it.  The owners want some kind of
    guarantee for the rest of the $$$$ in the next few days or else
    they threaten to move the team to Oakland before next season.  The
    North Stars have already asked permission from the league to move and
    have been in contact with officials in Oakland.
    
    The Timberwolves of the NBA have offered some sort of a 3 year free
    rent deal if the North Stars want to share their building but the North
    Stars don't seem interested.
    
    A Minny newspaper did a survey and while it was reported that most
    Minnesotans felt it was important to have an NHL team in the state,
    they would not be too upset if the North Stars left.  However, they
    felt that if the North Stars did leave, then Minnesota should be
    `entitled' to one of the upcoming expansion teams. 
    
    I have seen a few games from Minnesota this year on TV and even though
    they have one of the best home records, there were many empty seats.
    
    pete

    Didn't Oakland get a team during the mid-60s NHL expansion?  The Seals
    wasn't it?  What became of them/who are they now?  Let's hope that if
    the North Stars move, they'll change the name too (to the Seals even).
    
    Though they are my favorite NBA team, the Utah Jazz is a stupid name. 
    They should have changed when they left New Orleans.  Calgary was OK
    for keeping the name from Atlanta.  It was still practical; but the
    Oakland North Stars just don't cut it with me.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .253:
    
    Yep, Oakland's NHL entry was called the California Golden Seals.
    
    Wouldn't mind seeing that name resurrected if the North Stars to
    Oakland rumor turns out to be true.
    
    
    py

    I believe that the California Golden Seals moved from the Bay Area
    to Cleveland and were known there as the Cleveland Barons.
    
    A few years later, I believe that the Barons merged their
    franchise with the current Minnesota North Stars.   
    
    The only player I remember from the Seals was goalie Gilles
    Meloche.  Didn't Meloche finish up with the North Stars ???
    
    Also, the Kansas City Scouts were a mid-1970s expansion team that
    moved to Denver and became the Colorado Rockies.   And the Rockies
    are now the New Jersey Devils where they have obviously prospered.
    
    Yes ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    There is still one ex-Seal playing somewhere in the NHL, I believe.
    "Seals" has been used in the Bay Area for a long time, back to the
    30's with the baseball SF Seals (can anyone name their star CF?)
    
    Bruce
      

    re .256:
    
    > "Seals" has been used in the Bay Area for a long time, back to the
    > 30's with the baseball SF Seals (can anyone name their star CF?)
   
    Joe DiMaggio?
    
    
    py

California Golder Seals started out as the Oakland Golden Seals.

I have a list of hockey history that someone put in an earlier
incarnation of this notesfile.  I'll see if I can find it and
post it...

later,
Chainsaw

    
    re: Meloche
    
    Although I don't want to mewl (or did you really mean 'mew', JD?
    Better go get help from T on your vocabulary lessons again.),
    Meloche ended his career with the Penguins.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Charlie

    A previous note said that the name Calgary Flames still made sense
    after they moved there from Atlanta. It sounds alright but for the
    life of me I don't see the connection between Calgary and the word
    Flames (maybe it's the flames from gas being burned off at the oil
    wells, Alberta ia an oil producer in Canada).
    
    As far as the name Golden Seals is concerned, if they do move I
    for one hope they change it. When I was still living at home in
    Montreal, many moons ago, I was listening to the Habs playing the
    Seals out on the coast. It was the French-speaking radio station
    in Montreal that was covering the game. Well, for you non-Francophones
    out there the word for "seal" in French is "phoque" which when said
    quickly and often sounds very much like a 4 letter, English swear
    word F**K. I think you can see why I personally don't think it's
    a great name. 
    
    I never knew that Utah was into Jazz, I suppose they moved from
    New Orleans, did they?
                                                
    
    Ted.

    	RE: Golden Seals
    
    	I liked the white skates.  They looked like sharp phoque(ers)
    in 'em.
    
    				/Don

    While you're all on the subject of team names, one of the hockey
    magazines had an article on stupid names and the Whalers were 
    right up near the top of the list.  If I can find the article
    I'll bring it in.
    

    	Karen, you sure the article just didn't mean stupid teams when
    they were talking about the Whalers?
    
    				/Don

    X-Seals: Reggie Leach, Carol Vadnais. Meloche is now goalie
    coach for the Pens since 'Tony O' got canned.
    The white skates were because the team owner was Charlie O.
    Finlay who also owned the A's and they were the 1st
    team to wear white spikes....I think!  Any body have their
    W/L record, and the life span of the team ('67-?). They
    would have to rank as the worst franchise in the history
    of the NHL (mind you they mind get some competition from the 
    KC Scouts).
    
    Andy
                                                 

    Yeah, I'm sure.  (-:  I did read how the Whalers will never win 
    anything as long as certain people are running the team but they
    will keep being invited to the playoffs as long as Quebec remains
    in the Adams division.  That's good news I guess.  

    RE: .260 and my previous note
    
    It's a stretch, I'll grant that, but Flames makes sense in Calgary
    because you need heat to keep warm.  My point was, it's not as dumb
    sounding as Utah Jazz or, heaven forbid, the Oakland North Stars.  Hey,
    how about the California Golden Stars?!  Or does that sound like
    something in Lucky Charms Cereal?
    
    Yes, the Jazz came from New Orleans in the 70s (?) NBA expansion. 
    While in New Orleans, they loaded the team with all these seasoned vets
    and won a good number of games out of the gate.  However, the other
    expansion teams' younger players began to gel while the vets just kept
    getting older.  New Orleans began losing tons of games and lost fan
    support.  They moved to Utah soon after (right?).
    
    So, I wonder when Charlotte will move to Pittsburgh?  Wow, the
    Pittsburgh Hornets!  Wasn't that the name of the first hockey team in
    the Steel City?  Didn't they used to play out in 'Sliberty?
    
    	--dan'l

    The Pens beat Washington last night 7-5.
    
    Mario extended his streak to 44 games with **1 goal**  and 
    
    4 assists.
    
    JaKe
    

In response to the question about this "history" of hockey teams,
here's a pretty comprehensive list, which should answer all questions.

Some of the teams names (i.e. Kansas City Scouts) stir some long
dormant memories of my youth...

Chainsaw

PS  This was sent to me by Coach Coulombe.  Many thanks, Coach!

                               -< NHL HISTORY  >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Franchise History
    
    LOCATION       CLUB NAME       NHL SEASONS       FRANCHISE ACTIVITY
    
    Atlanta        Flames          1973-80           trans to Calgary
    Boston         Bruins          1925-to date      
    Brooklyn       Americans       1942              formerly NY Americans 
    Buffalo        Sabers          1971 to date      
    California     Seals           1968              rename Oakland
    Calgary        Flames          1981 to date      trans from Atlanta
    Chicago        Black Hawks     1927 to date      
    Cleveland      Barons          1977-78           trans from Oakland
                                                     merged with Minnesota
    Colorado       Rockies         1977-82           trans from Kansas City
                                                     trans to New Jersey
    Detroit        Cougars         1927-30           rename Falcons 1931
                   Falcons         1931-33           rename Red Wings 1934
                   Red Wings       1934- to date
    Edmonton       Oilers          1980-to date      Former WHA Franchise
    Hamilton       Tigers          1921-25           sold to NY Americans
    Hartford       Whalers         1980-to date      Former WHA Franchise
    Kansas City    Scouts          1975-76           trans to Colorado
    Long Island    Ny Islanders    1973- to date     
    Los Angeles    Kings           1968-to date
    Minnesota      North Stars     1968 to date      merged with Cleveland
    Montreal       Canadiens       1918- to date
                   Wanderers       1918
                   Maroons         1925-38
    New Jersey     Devils          1982-to date      trans from Colorado
    New York       Americans       1926-41           moved to Brooklyn 1942
                   Rangers         1927 to date
    Oakland        Seals           1968-76           Formerly California
                                                     trans to Cleveland
    Ottawa         Senators        1918-31           did not play in 1932
                                   1933-34           trans to ST.Louis
    Philadelphia   Quakers         1931
                   Flyers          1968-to date
    Pittsburgh     Pirates         1926-30           trans to Philly
                   Penguins        1968 to date
    Quebec         Bulldogs        1920              trans to Hamilton
                   Nordiques       1980 to date      former WHA franchise
    ST.Louis       Eagles          1935              trans to Ottawa
                   Blues           1968 to date
    Toronto        Arenas          1918-19           rename ST.Patricks
                   St.Patricks     1920-26           rename Maple leafs
                   Maple Leafs     1927-to date
    Vancouver      Canucks         1971 to date
    Washington     Capitals        1975 to date
    Winnipeg       Jets            1980 to date      Former WHA Franchise   

    
      When I lived in Winnipeg, 70,71 , they had a Hockey team then.
    I believe they were called Jets (though my memory may be failing)
    They wern't in any kind of *major* league, but I seem to recall
    that Bobby Hull or Gordie Howe played/coached there for a while.
    
      Can anyone confirm this ? If so, then the previouse note is slightly
    incorrect.

    The World Hockey Association (WHA) was formed in the 1972-73 season.
    The 4 survivors from the league are the Hartford Whalers, the Quebec
    Nordiques, the Edmonton Oilers and the Winnipeg Jets.  Bobby Hull
    did play for the Jets in those days.  Among the other teams in the
    league were the New York Golden Blades, the Philadelphia Blazers
    (which Derek Sanderson played for, and which I believe was originally
    formed as the Miami Screaming Eagles), the Cleveland Crusaders (which
    Gerry Cheevers played for), the Toronto Toros (which became the
    Birmingham Bulls), the Los Angeles Sharks and the Chicago Cougars.
    There was a team in the league called the Indianapolis Racers which
    Wayne Gretzky broke in with before going to Edmonton and there was
    also a franchise in Cincinnati.
    
    John

Re the Whalers...

I guess certain people from Massachussets don't know much.

The Whalers started out as the New England Whalers.  Their original
logo featured a harpoon in a circle.  Later, I believe, the logo
changed to a W with a harpoon through it.  I'm not exactly sure
where they played early on, but they did win the Avco Trophy or
whatever the WHA's version of the Stanley Cup was called  in 72-73.

As to Whalers being a stupid name, with all due respect, if we're
following the nickname-geographic area formula, it makes a helluva
lot more sense than the Bruins!  When was the last time you found
a bear in the Bahston area??? (outside of a zoo!).

The Whalers are capable of winning the cup with the individuals that
are now running the club.  (Gee Karen, how old was that article?)
Johnston and Ley have had roughly 6-8 months with the club, which
is not enough time for any conclusions.

From my point of view, there are some players on the team that I would
keep, there are a lot I would trade away.  If the team could pick
up someone with the caliber of a Pat LaFontaine, it would go a long
way towards improving their cup chances.  Their D needs to tighten up
quite a bit too.  They have an excellent young goalie, who with seasoning
will approach greatness.  They also have a good goalie (Sid) who's okay.

FWIW,
'Saw

Yes, along with the Cincinnati Stingers.

The Howes played for Houston.  The very first pro hockey game I 
saw was the Whalers vs Houston.  To see the Howes play was a thrill.

Bobby Hull played for Winnepeg...

Gawd, this takes me back...

chainsaw

    Sorry, I forgot the Aeros.  How could I have forgotten?
    
    John

�The Whalers started out as the New England Whalers.  Their original
�logo featured a harpoon in a circle.  Later, I believe, the logo
�changed to a W with a harpoon through it.  I'm not exactly sure
�where they played early on, but they did win the Avco Trophy or
�whatever the WHA's version of the Stanley Cup was called  in 72-73.
    
    If I remember correctly, the New England Whalers started off playing in
    the Springfield Civic Center.  They then alternated between Hartford
    and Springfield before moving permanently to Hartford.  Springfield
    also has an AHL franchise (the Kings which became the Indians, or vice
    versa - it's been awhile).  The AHL team played in the Collesium on the
    Eastern States Exposition Grounds in West Springfield prior to the
    Springfield Civic Center being built.  The team then went to
    Springfield, but I think they went back to West Springfield for awhile
    when the Whalers were formed.

They are the Indians now...

They play mostly in the rink at the Eastern states exposition...

Metz

    Gee Frank.  I didn't write the articles.  And they were both recent.
    (within the last month)
    
    

Karen, you really shouldn't be reading the Weekly World News...it might
give you a complex ;^) ;^) ;^)

Chainsaw

    
    re Boston Bruins vs. Hartford Whalers:
    
    At least Boston Bruins is alliterative.  I'll bet there's been more
    bruins in Boston than whales in Hartford.  8^)
    
    re California Golden Stars:
    
    I think star in French is etoile.  When our friends listen to someone
    saying that quickly in French it may sound like California Golden
    toilets.  8^)
    
    
    re Springfield Indians:
    
    We used to go to there games all the time in the mid 70's.  There
    was this big old drunk guy who would line up all the empty beer
    cups he had (usually much > 15) in front of him, and make these
    sounds like 2 elephants mating.  Does he still go to the games?
    I used to caddy for one of the owners of the Indians when I was
    a kid.
    
    Bruce 

       Hey that guy sounds like Hawk! I didn't know he was a Springfield
    fan.
                              Denny
    
    Sorry Hawk, you knew somebody had to do it, dintcha?

    re .276 or so...minorNit.
    
    Beg to differ, but according to the ads which I see flashed on TV
    all the time, speak none the less of all those #@!$@! CARS which
    took up precious parking space on the street during the game (used
    to live in the apt. tower across the street), the Indians play all
    their home games at the Civic Center.  That's where their office
    is, too.
    
    ---kim  

    Denny, that was my other brother Hawk!  :-)

�    re Boston Bruins vs. Hartford Whalers:
�    
�    At least Boston Bruins is alliterative.  I'll bet there's been more
�    bruins in Boston than whales in Hartford.  8^)
    

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce...(sigh)

If you spent any time at all in New England, than you'd know that
New England used to be the whaling capital of this part of the
world...  Hence the name New England Whalers...

8^)

    	I thought they were named the Whalers because just like Ahab's
    quest for Moby, the Whalers quest for a Stanley Cup is an unattainable
    dream.
    
    				/Don

    1967-68 west division                 1968-69
        W  L  T  PTS  GF GA               W  L  T PTS  GF  GA
    PHI                               STL
    LA                                OAK 29 36 11 69  219  251
    STL                               PHI
    MIN                               LA
    PIT                               PIT
    OAK 15 42 17 47 153 219           MIN
    
    1969-70                           1970-71
           W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA              W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA
    STL                                  CHI
    PIT                                  STL
    MIN                                  PHI
    OAK  22  40  14  58  169  243        MIN
    PHI                                  LA
    LA                                   PIT
                                         CAL 20 53 5 45 199 320
    1971-72                          1972-73
           W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA             W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA
      CHI                              CHI
      MIN                              PHI
      STL                              MIN
      PIT                              STL
      PHI                              PIT
      CAL 21 39 18 60 216  288         LA
      LA                               ATLANTA
                                       CAL  16 46 16 48 213 323
    1973-74                               1974-75  ADAMS DIVISION
           W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA                  W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA
      PHI                                   BUF
      CHI                                   BOS
      LA                                    TOR
      ATL                                   CAL 19 48 13 51 212 316
      PIT
      STL
      MIN
      CAL  13 55 10 36  195 342
   1975-76                          
          W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA              
     BOS
     BUF
     TOR
     CAL 27  42 11 65 250 278
    
      THIS IS ALL I COULD COME UP WITH FOR THE SEALS STANDING IN THE NHL.
    
    COACH........
    
    
    

Okay, Slasher....you're cruisin' for a bruisin'   8^)

    In their initial season, 1972-73, the Whalers were based in Boston,
    splitting their time between the Boston Garden and Boston Arena,
    and sharing the Garden with the Bruins, Celtics and the Bruins then-AHL
    affiliate, the Boston Braves.  At the end of the 1973-74 season,
    they moved westward to play in the playoffs.  At that point, I believe
    they were using the Springfield Civic Center while waiting for the
    Hartford Civic Center to be built.  The Springfield Indians of the
    AHL used the Eastern States Coliseum.  The Whalers became the Hartford
    Whalers and moved to Hartford upon completion of the Hartford Civic
    Center.  The Whalers played in Springfield again after the HCC's
    roof collapsed while waiting for the HCC to be repaired.
    
    John

    
    
    	How's about the Hartfud Insurance Salesman!!
    
    
    
    
    	Steve

    Frank, I suppose the last time a bear was seen in Boston was about the
    same time New England was the whaling capital of the world.

bruin \br�-en\ n [D, the name of the bear in "Reynard the Fox"] (15c): bear


I would put forth the assumption, that since this word is of dutch origin,
and refers to a specific bear, that with the possible exception of the
hockey team, no one has ever seen a "bruin" in Boston ;^)


Here's a slight change of subject....

Who among you out there know what the Bruins insignia represents?

Chainsaw

    re WHA teams: Ottawa Nationals (move to Toronto), Vancouver
    Blazers (move to Philly), Milwaukee (trans from LA or Miami),
    Detroit Stags(?). 
    
    Andy

    The B at the center of a spoked wheel representing Boston's title
    as the "Hub of the Universe".
    
    John

    
    And there are fewer and fewer bares in Boston now that the Combat
    Zone is being forced out.
    
    -Dick
    

Combat zone is gone...

Last topless bar down there got shut down over 6 months ago. Unless they got
off somehow :-)...

Speaking of which..the latest SI swimsuit was very disappointing IMHO...

Metz

Metz...

Saw a special on how the issue is made on HBO the othe night...

Elle MacPherson makes me MELT!!!!

Chainsaw

    re .283
    
    
    Frank, Frank, Frank...(sigh)
    
    I betcha I've been to more Whalers games then you have.  I know
    all about New Englands whaling past, and can guarantee you that
    it had absolutely nothing to do with Hartford.  If they presently
    called themselves the N.E. Whalers, that'd be different. 
    
    
    Bruce

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce...(burp -- damn that pea soup)

I know that Hartford is not the whaling capital...however, when
they renamed them to Hartford, they kept the name.  Much as the 
Giants did when they moved to that town on the west coast...what
are they now, the San Francisco Giants?  hmmm.....;^)

    
    SF Giants makes as much sense as NY Giants.  Hartford Whalers makes
    as much sense as Utah Jazz.
                          8^)
    
    Bruce

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce --

What difference does any of it make?  Los Angeles Lakers has to be
the funniest one, but a rose by any other name...

The Vancouver Canucks...I may be wrong, but I though Cancuck was 
kind of a derogatory term.  Didn't Sen. Muskie get in trouble
one time for using that word?

At any rate, they usually try to pick a nickname for something
indigenous to the area (Seattle Thunderbirds, Maine Mariners,
etc etc etc) but then that might get a little streched when they
move...

Oh well....

later,
Chainsaw Chainsaw Chainsaw

    I expect that your spelling i.e. Cancuck was a typo. Canuck is the
    Canadian nickname much like Yankee is yours. 
    
    About the L.A. Lakers? If I'm not mistaken weren't they the Minnesota
    Lakers before they moved to L.A. Minnesota is just south of Manitoba
    in Canada and Mannitoba is well-known for the thousands of lakes
    in the province so I imagine there are quite a few in Minnesota
    as well.
    
    Ted.

    I've never thought of Canuck as derogatory. Just a term like Yank,
    or Limey. Do Americans find Yank derogatory ? I know that few Brits
    find Limey such.
    
    P.S.  I found Yank very derogatory when I came back to the U.K.
    from Canada.     ;-)
    
    					Wayne (an ex Pat Canuck )

    No, Wayne I never thought of Canuck as being derogatory. I do admit
    that the Brits say Yank in such a way as to make it sound quite
    derogatory. But then the Irish have a certain way of saying Brit
    that "don't sound none too friendly".
    
    Ted.

Yeah, you're right.  "Cancuck" was a typo...sometimes the fingers get
going too fast.

I don't find "Yank" a derogatory term.  Perhaps it's that fierce 
American pride (you know, that "I don't care what they think" attitude)
that we have sometimes, I don't know.  But, personally, I'm proud of the
term.

(I do know that my English friends hate the term "Roast Beef", and I don't
really blame them...)

Anyway, I guess the reason I thought "Canuck" was bad, was that during
one Presidential campaign a few years ago, I believe it was Edmund
Muskie (WARNING, I could be wrong about who it was) said something
about Canucks, and it caused quite an uproar...  From that, I assumed
that the term was derogatory.

Thanks for setting me straight...

Chainsaw

BTW, last month's National Geographic Magazine has an *excellent* article
on US-Canadian relations along the border...  I learned a lot from that.

    	Since the words dumb and canuck are usually synonymous I can
    see why some would think it a derogatory term.  The Bruins played
    poorly this weekend.  They had better get things together for the
    upcoming road trip.
    
    				/Don

    Hi Chainsaw,
    
    Thanks for the tip on the National Geographic, I'll pick it up.
    
    It's really hard to imagine Ed Muskie saying something that would
    cause an uproar, he always struck me as such placid creature. Are
    you sure it wasn't Spiro Agnew? Sounds more like something he might
    do?
    
    I read somewhere that the term Yankee came from the early Dutch
    settlers in the U.S. The Dutch word for "Johnnie" is "Yanke" and
    that got changed to "Yankee".
    
    I don't know the the derivation of "Canuck" perhaps a fellow Canadian
    can help me out here.
    
    Ted.    

    "Yankee" not derogatory?!?  You obviously haven't been in the south and
    been called that.  "Yankee" is, in no uncertain terms, a southern
    synonym for a$$hole.
    
    I had one southerner (whose neck was so red I needed sunglasses) say
    to me just a few weeks ago, "You're one o' dem yankees, ain'tche."  I
    proudly retorted, "Yes, and so was my mother.  Wanna make something of
    it?"
    
    Down here, they're still POed about us "yankees" kicking butt 100+
    years ago.  Unbelievable, but ain't that what makes America great!
    
    	--dan'l

    Maybe it was what the politician (who ever it was) said about the
    Canucks, and not just the term. Alternativley, I can relly imagine
    a Canadian politician referring to the as Yanks, so maybe it was
    an etiquette uproar.
    
    No, I don't know where the saying came from, but I can remember
    my father saying it since I was knee high. It may have originated
    in the military, sort of like Anzacs.
    
    Dumb synonomos with Canuck ? As Yank is synonomos to Damn and Go Home ?
    
    What did the National Geographical say. Not that good, I bet.
    
    					Regards,
    					Wayne.
                                              

        What node is BOSTON_BRUINS on now?

re a couple back:

Yeah, I've been down south a lot.  I've never had anything but hospitality
from them, except for one Okie who took exception to something I said.

True, the term Yankee down there is used in a derogatory sense.
But, the Yank I was referring to is the common English  (British??)
method of referring to someone from the US...

In speaking with English folks, Scottish folks, and Irish folks, I've
never sensed a deragotory tone in the term "Yank".  True, they think
some of our customs and habits a bit weird, but then the concept of
having a King or Queen is a bit weird to us here...

BTW, I'm known pretty much as being able to get along with almost anyone
so that might have something to do with it...

Chainsaw

    
    Snap to your BTW, Chainsaw. I too, am easy going.
    
    I did get a bit defensive though, when I was going through school
    here in the U.K. Both Teachers and students seemed to refer to Canada
    as the Fifty First state. One teacher actually refused to believe
    that we have our own Flag and National Anthem.
                                      
    On time at college, we had some U.S. woman doing a tour, and she
    gave a lecture to the whole college. A student asked if she was
    ever taken to be a Canadian. She said "Its the sane thing really.
    Most Canadians would give their eye-teeth to be part of the United
    States." Guess who got threatend with expulsion when He wouldn't
    apologise for walking out of her lecture.
    
    						Wayne.
    

    Wayne,
    
    The longer I've been away from home the less it bothers me.
    
    I used to be really insulted that someone thought I was American until
    I realized that we all sound nearly the same to Europeans.
    
    An observation:
    
    If we were having this conversation about any sort of so-called Ethnic
    group, we'd have all been shot ten times over in here.  I remember
    someone making the mistake of noting a quote in here a few weeks ago
    which referred to an Ethnic group and being bombarded with notes from
    do-gooders telling how offensive it was.
    
    Glad to see the Canucks/Yanks/Paddies/whoever don't seem to take
    themselves perhaps so seriously as some others and can have a good
    laugh at the same time.
    
    rick

�    Snap to your BTW, Chainsaw. I too, am easy going.

Wayne, I don't quite get what "snap" means, but I read you loud
and clear on the easy going.
    
�    I did get a bit defensive though, when I was going through school
�    here in the U.K. Both Teachers and students seemed to refer to Canada
�    as the Fifty First state. One teacher actually refused to believe
�    that we have our own Flag and National Anthem.
                                      
My trips to Canada have taught me that it is a place with a character
and charm all its own.  From the french speaking people in the
east, to the folks who append "eh" to every sentence farther west ;^)
I've found Canada to be a pretty hospitable place, with friendly
people, and some mighty breathtaking scenery.  (Your money is awfully
funny looking though [lotsa smilies!]

The Canadian flag, to me, is very pretty and poweful in its simplicity.
I had the photos I took on my recent trip to Vancouver (eh) developed
and one of my favorites is a photo of some mountains, snow covered but
predominantly gray (grey??) due to the cloudy day, with a flag pole 
in the foreground with the flag unfurled in the wind...  That red and
white certainly added power to the photo.


�    On time at college, we had some U.S. woman doing a tour, and she
�    gave a lecture to the whole college. A student asked if she was
�    ever taken to be a Canadian. She said "Its the sane thing really.
�    Most Canadians would give their eye-teeth to be part of the United
�    States." Guess who got threatend with expulsion when He wouldn't
�    apologise for walking out of her lecture.
    
I don't blame you for walking out....    


re ethnic stuff:


Yeah, I noticed that too.  I think on the whole everyone that you mentioned
is pretty easy going about the "nicknames".  It's been my experience that
when Canadians, Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotmans, and "Yanks" get together
they tend to talk about the different ways they do or say the same
thing...(For example, one of my English friends refers to 11:30 as
"half eleven", and we would refer to it as "half past eleven" ....)

Besides, we're all cultures that absolutely *love* beer! 8^)

Chainsaw

    When Bobby Orr was asked recently to compare Gretzky an Lemieux, he
    wasn't very complimentary to Mario.  He echoed many of the things that
    have been said in here.  Mario is a very good athlete and goal scorer
    but he tends to be lazy.

    Can you guys can it on the name-calling topic? It's getting
    stale, boring and all the other 'derogatory' words I can 
    find. 
    Saturday the Pens beat the Kings 7-6, 99 and 66 only a pt each.
    From watching highlights, it seems that the B's only score 
    when Neely gets a pass from Janney in the slot (reminds you
    of the way Espo would score), or Bourque getting one of his
    screen shots deflected. Habs have the same problem, it's Richer
    or bust for them. Therefore, it looks like Buffalo should take
    it in the boring-Adams. Meanwhile, in Buffalo Ruskie-defector
    Mogilny has quit the team. He finds the season too long and has
    a phobia about flying. Don Cherry says that the Nords should do
    what the Pens did a few years back, lose this year and MAKE SURE 
    they lose next year, this way they get the #1 pick of this year
    (Mike Ricci, Petr Nedven, or Owen Nolan) and next year 
    (Eric Lindros, who is better NOW than the other 3). The Pens 
    outlost the Devils for Mario and it kept the franchise in Pitt.
    
    Andy 
    

    At home I've got a California G.S. team picture and I'll bring 
    it in and post any names of interest.
    				Raider_Rich
    

    -1:
    
    Are you serious about Mogilny? Tell me what is going on.
    
    You think they give him a warm Welcome Back in Moskwa ... ?
    
    R.

Guten Tag Rainer!

Are you still looking for hockey magazine or programs from the 
NHL?  

I'll be going to the Whalers - Quebec game on 2/21, and if you're still
interested, I'll pick up a program (Goal Magazine) and drop it in 
Interoffice Mail for you....

What's your mail stop?


frank

>        What node is BOSTON_BRUINS on now?

JENEVR::BOSTON_BRUINS

Alan S.

    Frank,
    
    everything (Program, Hockey Magazine) is welcome. Mailstop is @UFC.
    Thanks very much!
    
    Rainer

    OH WHAT THE HECK IF THE SEASON WOULD END TODAY WHAT WOULD THE STANDING
    LOOK LIKE ?, I THINK SOMETHING LIKE THIS
    
               W  L  T  PTS  GF  GA
       1: BOS  34 20 5  73   208 164
       2: BUF  32 20 6  70   196 174
       3: EDM  28 19 11 67   231 200
       4: CGY  27 18 13 67   240 196
       5: MTL  30 22 6  66   190 166
       6: CHI  30 21 4  64   229 210
       7: TOR  30 26 2  62   260 253
       8: NYI  28 24 6  62   216 208
       9: STL  27 22 8  62   203 187
      10: WPG  26 24 7  59   212 214
      11: HFD  26 25 6  58   195 191
      12: NJ.  25 25 7  57   211 221
      13: PIT  26 27 4  56   241 258
      14: NYR  25 25 7  56   181 189
      15: WSH  25 30 4  54   221 218
      16: LA   24 27 6  54   247 240
      17: MIN  25 31 3  53   202 223
      18: PHI  22 27 8  52   205 199
      19: DET  20 30 7  47   207 229
      20: VAN  18 32 9  45   175 219
      21: QUE   9 41 6  24   172 283
    
    COACH
    

    We moved ahead of Vancouver?  Cool!
    
    We're not out of the playoffs yet!
    
    WoW (Walt on Wings)
    

    
    
    I was watching the flyers rangers game last nite and I did'nt see any
    traces of Ken Linseman. Anybody know his status ?
    
    The Flyers were playing like animals, it was 3-3 when I fell asleep in
    the 3rd.
    
    -TH
    

    Rangers win 4-3 on Johnny O's 2nd goal (33rd on season).
    Tocchet got his 30th. 
    Nords win for 1st time in 28 days (approx 12-13 games) 
    against Canucks (5-3?)
    Sabres were lost against Hawks (4-1 at some point). Mogilny
    took the train to Chicago, did the warm up, didn't dress
    for game.
    After dropping the gloves again, this time against Nords' Loiselle,
    Richer vowed to not fight again. He's the ONLY sparklug the Habs
    have. With only on player doing all the offense that's why the Habs
    won't go far in the playoffs, same goes for the B's except they've
    got 2.
    Is Brett Hull going to go to the new Global Hockey League next year?
    Hull is to meet w/ the league in 10 days to find out where they
    stand. The Blues are trying to sign him but he wants a $375K increase
    to $1/2M. The GHL wants him to do the same thing his dad did for
    the WHA in '72(?).
    Looking at the list of salaries in the NHL, if one would trade on 
    salaries alone the KINGS would trade Dave Taylor(950K) for Ray
    Bourque(500k), Cam Neely(350k) and Brett Hull or Pierre Turgeon
    (125k). Instead they trade Nichols...STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!
    
    Andy

    great deal for nichols if ya a ranger fan...
    
    right mr watters?
    

    	Rangers are going nowhere Dinz.  The Islanders are back to ruling
    the pack.  The Patrick pack that is.  Find any Samuel Adams on sale?
    
    				/Don

    GOAL MAGAZINE APRIL 1990 ( THE NHL MAGAZINE ) 
    They sent questionnaires to players,coaches,and general managers around
    the league, asking them to select the NHL best in 37 different
    categories. These 37 categories make up the fifth Goal poll.
    *****************************************************************
    1: SMARTEST PLAYER = 1 Wayne Gretzky LA, 2 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh, 
                         3 Steve Yzerman Detroit.
    
    2: FASTEST SKATER = 1 Paul Coffey Pittsburgh, 2 Denis Savard Chicago,
                        3 Mark Messier Edmonton
    
    3: BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER IN THE GOAL AREA = 1 Brad McCrimmon Calgary,
                                                2 Kevin Lowe Edmonton
                                                3 Rod langway washington
    
    4: TOUGHEST PLAYER ( ALL-AROUND )= 1 Mark Messier Oilers, 
                                       2 Rick Tocchet Philly
                                       3 Cam Neely Boston
    
    5: MOST UNDERRATED DEFENSEMAN = 1 Craig Muni Edmonton, 
                                    2 Brad McCrimmon Calgary
                                    3 Rick Zombo Detroit
    
    6: TOUGHEST ON BOARDS = 1 Cam Neely Boston, 2 Rick Tocchet Philly
                            3 Kevin Dineen Hartford
    
    7: BEST PENALTY KILLING FORWARD = 1 Guy Carbonneau Montreal
                                      2 Dave Tippett Philly
                                      3 Colin Patterson Calgary tie for 3rd
                                      3 Esa Tikkanen Edmonton   
    
    8: BEST SLAP SHOT = 1 Al MacInnis Calgary, 2 Brett Hull St.Louis
                        3 Stephen Richer Montreal
    
    9: BEST FORWARD ON THE POWER-PLAY = 1 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh
                                        2 Tim Kerr Philly
                                        3 Wayne Gretzky LA
    
    10: BEST COACH AS A MOTIVATOR = 1 Jacques Demars Detroit
                                    2 Al Arbour Ny Islanders
                                    3 Terry Crisp Calgary
    
    11: BEST COACH FOR MACTHING AND CHANGING LINES = 1 Glen Sather Edmonton
                                                     2 Demers Detroit
                                                     3 Burns Montreal
    
    12: BEST YOUNG PLAYER 22 YEARS AND UNDER = 1 Brian Leetch NY Rangers
                                               2 Trevor Linden Vancouver
                                               3 Jimmy Carson Detroit
    
    13: BEST BACK HAND = 1 Wayne Gretzky LA, 2 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh
                         3 Guy Carbonneau Montreal
    
    14: BEST PLAYER ON DEFLECTIONS = 1 Joe Nieuwendyk Calgary
                                     2 Tim Kerr Philly
                                     3 Tony Tanti Vancouver
    
    15: EXCLUDING GRETZKY,LEMIEUX, FIRST CHOICE TO START FRANCHISE =
        1 Steve Yzerman Detroit, 2 Grant Fuhr Edmonton, 3 Mark Messier
    Edmonton tie with Sean Burke NJ Devils
    
    16: MOST NATURAL TALENT = 1 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh, 2 Wayne Gretzky
                              3 Steve Yzerman Detroit
    
    17: BEST PASSER = 1 Gretzky LA, 2 M.Lemieux Pittsburgh, 
                      3 Doug Gilmour Calgary
    
    18:  BEST PENALTY KILLING DEFENSEMAN = 1 Kevin Lowe Edmonton
                                           2 Brad McCrimmon Calgary
                                           3 Ray Bourque Boston
    
    19: BEST DEFENSEMAN ON POWER-PLAY = 1  Paul Coffey Pittsburgh
                                        2 Al MacInnis Calgary
                                        3 Ray Bourque Boston
    
    20: BEST TEAM LEADER= 1 Gretzky LA, 2 Yzerman Detroit, 3 Messier Oilers
    
    21: BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER IN THE GOAL AREA = 1 Lemieux Pittsburgh
                                                 2 Tim Kerr Philly
                                                 3 Nieuwendyk Calgary
    
    22: BEST CORNER MAN = 1 Neely Boston, 2 Tocchet Philly, 
                          3 the Sutter Brothers many.
    
    23: MOST UNDERRATED FORWARD = 1 Joe Mullen Calgary, 
                                  2 Steve Larmer Chicago
                                  3 Jari Kurri Edmonton
    
    24: BEST STICK HANDLER = 1 Lemieux Pittsburgh, 2 Savard Chicago
                             3 Gretzky LA
    
    25: HARDEST HITTER = 1 Scott Stevens Washington, 2 Neely Boston
                         3 Luke Richardson Toronto
    
    26: BEST ON FACE-OFFS = 1 Messier Oilers, 2 Joel Otto Calgary
                            3 Bryan Trottier Islanders
    
    27: BEST WRIST SHOT = 1 Tom Fergus Toronto, 2 Messier Oilers
                          3 Wendel Clark Toronto
    
    28: BEST DEFENSEMAN = 1 Bourque Boston, 2 Coffey Pittsburgh
                          3 Chelios Montreal
    
    29: MOST TALKATIVE = 1 Claude Lemieux Montreal, 2 Keith Acton Philly
                         3 Ken Linseman Philly
    
    30: BEST DEFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN = 1 Lowe Oilers,2 McCrimmon Calgary
                                    3 Mike Ramsey Buffalo
    
    31: GOALIE WHO BEST PLAYS THE ANGLES = 1 Fuhr Oilers, 2 Lemelin Boston
                                           3 Peeters Philly
    
    32: BEST CLUTCH GOALTENDER : 1 Fuhr Oilers, 2 Smith Islanders
                                 3 -
    33: BEST GOALTENDER ALL AROUND = 1 Fuhr Oilers, 2 Hrudey LA
                                     3 Roy Montreal
    
    34: BEST PUCK HANDLER = 1 Hextall Philly, 2 Barrasso Pittsburgh
                            3 -
    35: BEST GLOVEHAND = 1 Fuhr Oilers, 2 Hrudey LA, 3 Veron Calgary
    
    36: BEST GOALIE ONE ON ONE = 1 Fuhr Oliers, 2 Hrudey LA,
                                 3 Vanbiesbrouck NY Rangers
    
    37: I can't find there 37 Categories all i find is 36.
    
    Coach....... 
    
                       

    
    38: WHACKIEST SHAKESPEAREAN SPORTS NOTER = 1 Francis Way CAM::
    
    
    :-)

Hawk, you slayeth me...

    One day if I get the time I'm going to sit down with some of you
    and teach the correct usage of:
    
    1. there - that place, opposite of here
    
    2. their - possessive, connoting ownership by the 3rd person plural
    
    3.  they're - the contraction of they are
    
    
Ted :-)   I can't wait for the abuse I'm going to get over this.

    -1:
    
    I noticed that myself, did not want to be a (foreign) wise guy.
    Was not sure also, whether or not some of those 'faults' were
    commonly accepted now-a-days.
    
    In our (german) language they are accepting incredible things these
    days. Modern times ruin our languages and cultures. Sometimes feel
    like a dinosaurus.
    
    Rainer
    

    And I alwayth thought that They'rth wath a department sthore.
    
    Lee

    Wow, Lee typth with a lithp, too much. Oh pith on it, who careth.
    
    Ted :-)

Ted, we'll appoint you to the new formed DEC Grammar Police (tm).
This is a conglomeration of two divisions:  The Apostrophe Police,
headed up by Chief Hendry, and the ThereTheirTher're Police, headed
up by you. 8^)

I am often guilty of the aforementioned offense, and no, Rainer, it's
really not accepted, at least in anything official.  There is a plethora
of grammatical errors that commonly occur these days.  One of the major
problems is people like newscasters, color commentators tend to proliferate
these problems.  (If I hear one more sport report that says "he played
good", I'm gonna scream).

My excuse is that I'm always trying to type fast, and sometimes the
fingers get ahead of the brain.  I do know the difference, but don't
take time to proofread replies, like I would a specification or something.

Another good is "its" vs "it's", which everybody messes up.

In hockey action last night, the Whalers had a Texas shootout, tying
Toronto 6-6....

Chainsaw

    
    Mario's streak came to an end at 46 games as he left the game
    with a back injury in the first period.  The Pens did manage
    to beat the Rangers 4-3 in overtime on a Troy Loney backhand.
    
    Mario has evidently been wearing a back brace 24 hours a day
    for some time now.  He says that the only time his back 
    doesn't hurt is when he's skating; guess that wasn't the
    case last night.  I have heard that he will probably have
    surgery on it after the season.  Does anyone have the real
    details?  It's tough to follow the Pens in Broonsland...
    
    Charlie
    

    re .336
    
    Mario has a herniated disc in his back.  This was discovered more than
    a month ago but he played with the pain in order to :
    a) help his team...even if he could only play the Power Play
    b) chase Gretzky's record of 51 straight games with at least 1 point
    If it wasn't for the streak, he says he likely would have sat out a few
    games.
    
    He often was given days off from practice in order to rest the back. 
    Surgery is likely after the season.  The doctors said when they
    discovered the problem that it wasn't career threatening and he could
    continue playing if he could withstand the pain.
    
    pete

    As a Pens fan, I'm kind of glad the streak is history.  It would have
    been fun to see him get 52 but 46 is pretty impressive.  
    
    When Mario went out last night I was real pleased to see Paul Coffey 
    pick up the slack with 2 goals and 2 assists.  If Mario has to sit out 
    a while it will be intersting to see if Paul can keep it up.  He's 
    always had a Wayne or Mario to take the pressure off him.  This would
    be a good chance to silence the critics.
    
    Also, John Cullen seems to be taking over as the best player after
    Mario and Paul on the Pens.  4 assists last night.  Not exactly Mark
    Messier yet but he's showing more than Dan Quinn did.
    
    --Pens Fan

    T'ed,
    
    They're their now Ted, there just having some fun over their, so
    don't get on they're cases, wouldn't want grammer to cause more
    folks to over excess they're systems, now, would we, cause there
    systems are their for a porpoise...
    
    JD ;-)

Where I come from, we use one word interchangeably....

	THAR


Chainsaw

	One I always wondered about was loose. An awful lot of people in here
say ` X team is going to loose!' instead of `they're going to lose'.

	I could never figure if people were saying loose as a SPORTS
`convention', as in troof, caint, nexted, axed, etc. , or if it meant, like
loooooose -  sort of to lose big time, or what. So I just kept quiet about it. 
Okay, `fess up! What is it!?  Or does it mean that particular team is too loose
to win, so they'll lose? Ahm cornfoosed. Whatammit dammit?!

MIKE JN

    LAtest news flash Harold Ballard is ruled menatly incompetant.
    
    The family is trying to get all the legal stuff put together. Looks
    like the Leafs  will finnaly turn things around with th=is bonehead out
    of the picture. Go Leafs !
    
    -TH
     

    Mario's doctor was quoted as saying that his back problems started
    getting worse after it became widely reported in the press.  He said he
    wouldn't call it psychosomatic, but if you keep reading about how badly
    your back was injured, wouldn't you start believing it too?

================================================================================
Note 9.342                     Official NHL topic                     342 of 343
DISCVR::MSAIA                                         8 lines  15-FEB-1990 13:43
                          -< And now back to the NHL >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    LAtest news flash Harold Ballard is ruled menatly incompetant.

	They could've done that 20 years ago and spared the Maple Leaf 
fans all those seasons of misery.

				/Don     
              

    If you want to see really bad grammar, spelling, apostrophe usage
    and general slaughter of the English language, read the BOSTON_BRUINS
    conference.  It makes me cringe to read it.
    
    John

    >If you want to see really bad grammar, spelling, apostrophe usage
    >and general slaughter of the English language, read the BOSTON_BRUINS
    >conference.  It makes me cringe to read it.
    
    Hockey fans?  Boston Fans?  Say no more.
    
    Dan

       It's just that Joisey fans caint read or type at ALL, that's why you
    never hear from them.
                                     Denny

    Listen I did put a :-) in their wen I did it. Okay I like well grammur
    butt I never thot youse guys would take it so personal, eh!!!!
    
    I's real sorry. Can we go back to like we was.
    
    Yors trooly,
    
    Ted.
    

    Gud jobb, Ted.  Its al in funn, write?
    
    LeE  Ps.  Two bade the ole sports flies are gone, yude have loved
    some of the klassik things from the Dinz!!  :*)

    This note is becoming more and more like a conversation between
    Norm and Cliff from Cheers: Stupid, unimportant, non-informational,
    going absolutely nowhere, nobody in his right mind would care of,
    hence a topic that has been beaten to death. 
    
    Lemieux's out for at least 2 games until the doctors figure
    out if he'll be out for 2-6 weeks or even the rest of the season.
    If that's the case, then GreAtzky will win the scoring title by
    the back door just like Mario did the 1st time he won it (99 missed
    14games that year). 
    
    Hull got 3 last night as the Blues trounced the Nords 9-2. Stastny
    is thinking about playing in Switzerland next year w/ brother Anton.
    He says he hasn't enjoyed the last 2 years. Another 'foreigner' 
    that's bitching again. 
    
    Andy (good luck to you all in English 101, I agree that some of you
          need it but what do you expect from a country who has 
          illiterate athletes coming out of Universities)--> :*)
    

    
    RE: .350
    
    Your statement should OF been:
    
        "Yude OF loved some of the..."
    
    -Dick
    

    Hey  Charlie,  Do you have a leading scorer update anywhere in here
    that is up to date ???
    
    Coach......

    I like Mike Childs' "tittle".  :-)
    
    H'wak

    Coach,
    Been sitting on my desk for a while...I think this is yesterday's...
    
		gp  g   a   pts
Lemieux, Pgh    57  44  77 121
Gretzky, LA     56  29  78 107
Messier, Edm    58  33  61  94
Yzerman, Det	56  42  45  87
Hull, StL	57  52  34  86
LaFontaine, NYI 58  47  39  86
Nicholls,LA-NYR 56  33  53  86
Kurri, Edm	57  30  47  77
Coffey, Pgh	57  21  55  76
Robitaille, LA	56  39  36  75

.
.
Neely, Bos	57  41  30  71		(14th)
.
.
Richer, Mon	58  35  31  66		(20th)
    

    One of the great things about being a Penguins fan is that they're
    games are broadcast on KDKA, which has one of the strongest signals in
    the country (1020 AM).  I can usually pick up the games way down here in
    Charlotte after dark.  And if they're playing late out on the west
    coast, it comes in clear as any local signal.
    
    Hockey on the radio has the potential to be as boring as stock car
    racing on the radio, but Mike Lange, the Pens' announcer has got to be
    the best in the business right now.  If he's not, I'll eat a puck.
    
    	--dan'l

    
      I agree that Mike Lange is great!  Back when I was lucky and lived
    in the 'burgh, we compiled some of the Langisms.  They sound better
    than they read...  You gotta hear Mike's enthusiasm, too.
    
    After a great goal:
	"Great balls o' fire!"
	"Michael Michael Motorcycle!"
	"You ain't nothing but a hound dog!"
	"I'll be cow-kicked!"
	"Buy Sam a drink, and get his little dog one too!"
	"Hallelujah Hollywood!"
	"Ohhhh, Mario beat Hextall like a rented mule!"
	"Get a phone, call Arnold Slick from Turtle Creek!"
    		[note: in a Pittsburgh accent, Creek rhymes with Slick]
	"Look out Loretta!"
	"Elvis has left the building!"
	"You would have to be here to believe it!"
	"Burke didn't know whether to cry or wind his watch!"
	"Heeeeeeeeee shoots and scores!"
	"The rebound....Theeere iiis no rebound!"
    
    After a great stop:
	"Barrasso says no!"
	"Barrasso takes the heat out of a hot kitchen!"
    
    After a flurry of shots (say, on a power play):
	"The turkey's on the table!"
	"...they're throwing everything in, including the kitchen sink!"
    
    And, after a shot off the post:
	"Big Ben struck one!"
    
    
    Any Lange-listeners got any new ones?...
    
    Charlie

    Re. last 2
    
    I too depend on KDKA to get my Penguin (and Pirate) updates down here
    in Baltimore/Washington.  Sometimes I have to go out and sit in the car
    to get the best reception though.  Mike Lange is the best.  The only
    sayings I think you missed in .-1 were:
    
    	At the start of the game:
    
    		It's a hockey night in Pittsburgh
    
    	During a good game (to people who didn't come to the game):
    
    		Shame on you for six weeks for missing this one
    
    I also love the Penguins theme music.  I believe it started during
    the "boys of winter" period.  Gets the juices flowing.
    
    Anybody know the lastest on Mario?  I think I'm getting back pains
    myself just thinking about him.
    
    --Pens Fan

    
    Re. Pens' broadcaster:
    
    Sounds like Bob Prince and Rosey Rosewell incarnate!
    
    glenn

    Have two questions:
    
    	1.) Does anyone know the schedule (home/away) for the Habs
            in March?
    
    	2.) Went to the Forum always very early in the season(s), so I
            never had to 'use' the 'scalpers(sp?)': How to deal with them,
            that is, what is generally acceptable (plus x%; x = ?)
    
    Thank's
    
    Rainer
    

    re -.1
    	If you want a Habs schedule, just give me you mail/stop
    	As far as scalpers are concerned, they're crooks. You 
    	really have to be on your guard w/ them. Before game time
    	be prepared to PAY a lot ($50+), after 8:05 you're in the
    	drivers seat ($25-35).
    
    	At home: Det/10, Edm/14, Chi/17, Que-18, Bos-31.
    	Away: Bos/1, Min/3, LA-7, NYI/13, Win-21, Was/23, Har/24, 
    	      Que/29
    
    

    MAR-01  Thursday   at Boston Bruins
  MAR-03  Saturday   at Minnesota North Stars
  MAR-07  Wednesday  at Los Angeles Kings
  MAR-10  Saturday      Detroit Red Wings
  MAR-13  Tuesday    at New York Islanders
  MAR-14  Wednesday     Edmonton Oilers
  MAR-17  Saturday      Chicago Blackhawks
  MAR-18  Sunday        Quebec Nordiques
  MAR-21  Wednesday  at Winnipeg Jets
  MAR-23  Friday     at Washington Capitals
  MAR-24  Saturday   at Hartford Whalers
  MAR-29  Thursday   at Quebec Nordiques
  MAR-31  Saturday      Boston Bruins
  APR-01  Sunday     at Hartford Whalers
    

    re -1,-2:
    
    Thank you very much!
    
    Rainer

    
    
    Anyone Know what is wrong with Stephan Richer?  He did not play against
    the Whale on Saturday...Is he hurt?
    
    
    Jim

    Tom Webster, coach of the KINGS, is to get operated on one
    of his ears that prevent him form flying. This is the same
    problem he had in the mid-80s that got him fired from the Rangers.
    
    Hextall played his 3rd game of the season yesterday and won 
    his 100th career game 3-2 against the Isles.
    
    It was a fight filled weekend in the NHL: McSorley vs McRae, Kordic
    vs Crowder, Ewen vs 2 Whalers, SabreS vs WhalerS and more....
    
    Richer is out w/ a sore left foot. He'll miss tonigth's game in 
    Detroit. He did skate yesterday.
    
    Mario is in LA to check w/ Montana's back doctor.
    
    Quebec's Michel Bergeron wants his new GM to do something w/
    Stastny, Goulet and Hrkac. Either trade them or demote them.
    Ftorek and Bergeron behind the Nords bench: The shit will eventually
    hit the fan since they keep bumping against each other and getting
    in each others way.
    
    Looks like the Stars move to Oakland might happen, committee chairman
    Bill Wirtz of the Hawks says most teams won't oppose it. This would
    mean no team in San Jose. Brian Bellows would prefer San Diego, to
    live on a boat.
    
    Andy

    Mario is in L A today getting some second opinions about his back
    problem.  One of the doctor's he's seeing is the guy that fixed Joe
    Montana's back a couple years back in the early part of the season.
    
    Mario has two problems in his back, one tis the herniated disc and the
    other is an arthritic condition.
    
    He is definitely out for this week.
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

    Mario will come back and throw for 3 touchdowns on 21 for 28 passing!
    
    :-)
    
    Haw'k

    re-.1
    
    Yeah, but how many yards????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The word here in Pittsburgh today is that Mario is out for 4 to 6
    weeks.  He will be resting his back and doing some therapy for the
    pain.
    
    The doctors say he may be back for the playoffs, that is, IF the Pens
    make the playoffs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey Jake,
    
    re: ^18 et al,
     shouldda used the ">" thingie
    
    K
    

    	Is Mogilny really afraid to fly?  Or does he really want to
    play in New York City where the partying is nonstop?
    
    				/Don

    Would anyone have the top ten leading scorers sp? list ?
    
    please post
    Thanks Coach....

    ./don
    
    he wants to play with a winner
    
    
    dinz
    

    	Dins, Buffalo has a better record than the Rangers.  But the
    Rangers play in a party town.
    
    				/Don

    KINGS beat Stars 4-2, 99 got 3 points, 2 behind 66.
    Wings tied Rangers 4-4, looks like the Stars aren't going to
    make the playoffs. It would be a nice going away gift to the
    worst NHL fans since they'll most likely be relocating next
    year to the West Coast.
    Habs brought up a defenseman that can score from Sherbrooke for 
    tonights game against the Nords. He plays a physical game and
    doesn't mind dropping them (20 fights this year). His offensive
    stats aren't bad either. He's 21.
    
    Andy

    -1:
    
    ... and the name of the guy is?
    
    R.

    re -.1
    	Sorry about that.  Len Oldelin, or is it Lee? Anyways he
    played his Jr hockey in Moose Jaw and got seasons of 50 and
    60 points w/ about 160pm/yr. This is the first year that he's
    fought so much and had some many pm (+200 so far in Sherbrooke).
    Should be a battle royale tonight. BTW, Buffalo lost 7-3 to 
    Edmonton last night.
    
    Top 3 Jrs for this year's draft:
    Owen Nolan (Cornwall Royals, OHL) 115pts, winger
    Petr Nedved (Seattle T-Birds, WHL) 121pts, winger (defected from Czech)
    Mike Ricci (Peterborough Petes, OHL) 95pts, center                      
    
    I've seen both #1 and #3 against Lindros, 16, and found that Lindros
    is a better player NOW than the 2 18yr olds.

    His name is Lyle Odelein.  He's 5'10" and was born in Saskatchewan.
    He was Mtl's 8th pick, 141st overall in the 1986 draft.  His junior
    stats give no indication of goal scoring ability but it does look
    like he is aggressive.  Maybe the Habs think this guy is going to
    add some much needed "punch" to their defence.  Burns has been looking
    for someone to play this role.  If this guy works out then all they
    will need is a center for the Richer line.  I say get Peter Statsny if
    he can be had cheaply but no one agrees.  The guy must have one
    great play-off left in him. 
    
    FWIW, Lyle Odelein's brother, Selmar (who would name their kid Selmar?)
    was Edmonton's 1st round pick in 1984.  This guy has never amounted
    to much.                   
    
    Oh ya, I know this contradicts my Statsny idea but hasn't it now
    been proven beyond a spec of doubt that Europeans just can't hold
    a candle to North American hockey players in the NHL.  The Russians
    are a complete flop - Mogilny is a head case who hasn't proven a
    thing.  Few Swedes can play this style and they all want to go
    home after a couple years anyway.  Can you believe that Quebec waisted
    their first pick over all on Mats Sundin.  The Finns and Chechs
    aint much better.  And not to leave anyone out - Who the hell
    is Uwe Krupp anyway?  I'm not trying to be Don Cherry - I'm just
    saying that if I were a GM I would never draft a European.
    
    enough said,
    James
    
    

    Hi Jim,
    
    Some of them haven't been so bad. Esa Tickle-me in Edmonton, the
    big geek in Philly, Borge Salami was very good with the Leafs. I
    knew the Russkies would have a hard time coping with the travelling,
    longer schedule, free life-style etc etc. They are very skillful
    hockey players but because they are molly-coddled and privileged
    at home I think they generally make poor professionals. This is
    not to say that our own aren't prima donnas. There are plenty of
    them but they know that they are going to get a poke if they don't
    put out so they're better used to coping with the pressure.
    
    Ted

    Not to forget Mats Naslund, who carried the Habs to some finals
    in the last years and to a Stanley Cup. In my opinion he used to
    be a key player for them (as is Petr Svoboda right now).
    
    As for the never-ending 'war' about Europeans in the NHL:
    It is the style of playing which makes the difference. Most of
    you say that most of the europ. players are very skillfull, but ....
    It's just a different skill set what is needed in the NHL.
    Enough has been said about that.
    Don't forget, though, that Soviet Teams, touring in North-America,
    have a positive (?) record against NHL Teams, that Canada won the Canada
    Cup, if they won it at all, in a very close way (mostly over-time
    games), that Team Canada gets trashed on and on during World Champ.,
    even with guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier and Yzerman occasionally
    in their teams, (not to speak about Team USA).
    Enough has been said also about the (non)-significance of such com-
    parisons. Many europ. hockey 'experts' say because of the above facts
    that North-American players are not that good. As such, this is the
    same non-sense as some of you saying that europ. players 'cannot hold
    a candle ...'.
    
    As long as the respective environments (and interests) are that
    different, comparisons can only be made with respect to those
    environments.
    
    Rainer
    
    

    I agree with you to some extent, yes it's environmental. I also
    think that the introduction Euuropean players is a good thing otherwise
    the style of hockey becomes one dimensional, as in the last few
    years where most teams have concentrated on defensive hockey to
    the degree that it's becoming negative. But i still think that the
    NHL is the best league in hockeyand that if the NHL played the
    Europeans on a regular basis they'd have them sussed out and their
    records would be better over the long haul. 
    
    Please don't be offended by my playing with their names it was meant
    in fun. My surname is Egri and except for my family most people
    seem to be unable to cope with it. Even my wife mis-spells it and
    we've been married for 15 years.
    
    Ted.

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    European hockey 'experts' saying that NHL'ers arent that good should
    look at the fact that many AHL and IHL players are wooed by the
    European teams. These players, ie Grant Martin, Keith Gretzky to
    name a few, didnt fit into NHL plans, yet they play regularly
    overseas. BTW, Uwe Krupp is a solid NHL player, in the mold of
    Kenny Linseman. You hate to play against him, but you LOVE to have
    guys like him on your team.
    				Rich
    

    
    
    Anyone have the goal scorers for calgary?
    
    
    Jim

    I know that Uwe is pretty good.  He's big too!
    
    It's true, Naslund was important to the Habs when they won their
    last cup but now he's my choice for Possum Queen.  He doesn't seem
    too interested in putting out but I'm sure he loves his North American
    paycheck.  Every year he seems to be threatening to go back to Europe.
    I'll buy his ticket. (Of course I'll be rooting for him come play-off
    time).
    
    Ya, like the NHL teams are real interested in beating those touring
    Soviets eh.  If those games counted the Ruskies would get thrashed.
    I can see Cam Neely lining one of them up right now.
    
    Hey, why don't they send over a couple of Swedish teams too.  That
    would be great.  Wendel Clark would have a field day.
    
    Can you believe Tretiak figures he can play in NHL too.  He could
    probably be Mlynikov's back up in Quebec.  Like, give me a major
    break - these guys are making a joke of the league.  Ziegler does
    a good enough job on his own so someone should tell the Soviets
    that he doesn't need their help.
    
    Just rambling,
    James
       
    
    

    At the risk of sounding chauvinistic
    
                    "I WISH THE HELL THEY'D STAY HOME!!!"
    
    Ted.

Here's some grist from the mill...

I attended the Whalers-Nordiques game last week which the Whalers
won 3-2 (whooppee!, he said sarcastically).

Anyway, I was lucky enough to sit next to this girl who works for the
Whalers (we were up near the press box).  Anyway, this girl told me
that the rumor is Dineen is trade bait.  He just hasn't been producing
and seems to have a prima dona attitude now that he's making all
them bucks.

Also, the players HATE that stoopid song, and also hate the organist.
They'd rather hear some recorded rock during play stoppage than
the tripe the organist puts out.  Also, they'd rather have a 
{siren, bell, air horn, you choose it} than to hear that song when
they score.  

Finally, the Whale is essentially mired in 4th in the Adams.  Mediocre
again.  There is some hope.  While Ley has still not made good on his
threat to can no performers, the front office is seeking some good
players to build this team.

(Anyone know where we can buy some good defensemen?????)

Chainsaw

    Watched the Vancouver station sports last night, and they said the
    Canuck players are using the play of the Russians on the team as
    an excuse for there poor playing.  They railed on the Canucks, saying
    the team is going throught the motions, and pointing the finger
    at teh SOviets, BLAMing them for everything.
    
    JD

    Take heart, 'Saw, the Whalers clinched a playoff spot.

why does the NHL even bother to have a regular season ?

Just put everybody in the playoffs and start it in January. That way you don't 
have Hockey games in the middle of May.


Metz

Gentlemen, she was HOT.  Short leather skirt, nice legs.

I was a bit intimidated however, in that she seemed to know quite
a few players personally.  Since she wasn't actively engaged in
sticking her tongue in my ear, I decided that the better part of
valor was discretion, and didn't ask her out....

Re the Whale:

	Yep, they backed in all right...  I figure it they go against
	Boston, it'll be 4-2 Boston.  If Buffalo, 4-1 or 4-0...

Re Playoffs:

	Hockey has to do that for the $$$ to survive.  Maybe when
	they get 7 new teams, things might improve....

later,
'Saw

    Rumours are now FLYING that Stastny is going to Buffalo. Stastny's
    asked the Nords if it's true or not. 
    A lot of teams are after Corson but Savard says NOWAY. Corson has
    been an untouchable even when he was playing below expectancy.
    He and Skrudland are playoff players and they're what teams are
    looking for.
    Edmonton and Chicago want Dineen.
    Rogie's made the NYR a first place team. What's their record
    since the Nicholls trade?
    Yzerman and Chiasson are out for a week. Too bad, they were only
    a point behind the Stars who are now at home for a few (they're very
    strong at home).
    Bester and Kordic are saying 'no comment' about their altercation
    in a Vancouver restaurant. Bester must've been shitting bricks.
    Pens' are the worst team in the league w/o Mario, (I saw both games
    in Mtl and Que and that was the worst display by an NHL team this
    year).
    
    Andy

Okay,

From what I've heard it's official:  The Whalers traded Mike Liut
to Washington today for a guy named Yvonne Corvo.

All I have on Corvo is a left winger, big (~ 200 pounds), young (1967),
and the following stats:

	last year:  33 games, 5 points, +/- = 0, 62 pm.

Anyone got anything on this guy?  On paper it looks like a REAL STUPID
trade, considering that Hartford is hurting big time for defensemen.

Is this guy any good?

Enquiring (and somewhat disgusted) Whaler fans want to know

Chainsaw

They traded a guy named MIKE 

for a GUY named Yvonne?!?!?!

Talk about Possession by the DEBIL!

That's like trading a guy named Cam for a guy named Sally.

Mike JN

    Heck Saw, what the heck are we gonna do wif Liut out here in
    Washington?We ain't got no pro hockey, so we don't need no
    steenking goalies.  Maybe he can drive a ferry or sumthang...
    
    JD

    Yesterday's trades:
    
    Yvon Corriveau, a good defensive winger, tough in corners, 
    young, goes to Hartford w/ all of his 15 points for the 
    goalie w/ the 2nd best GAA Mike Liut. This proves again that
    you don't get much in return for a player w/ a hefty salary.
    
    Quebec sends Michel Goulet (455 goals), Greg Millen and a 
    six-round pick to Chicago for Everett Sanipass, Dan Vincelette 
    and Mario Doyon. The 3 kids from Chicago are all 21, 22 and 
    couldn't break the lineup. Quebec did ok, w/Fiset and Tugnutt
    they didn't need Millen and Goulet's value had been going down.
    
    Flyers send defenseman Jay Wells to Buffalo for Kevin McGuire.
    Looks like an even up trade.
    
    Rumours:
    John Kordic will never play for the Leafs again, he didn't show
    up for their game on Saturday. His equipment's in a bag and his
    name is off his stall in the room.
    Michel Petit from the Nords to anywhere.
    Sabres luring Anton Stastny(bait) from the Sweden league and
    getting brother Petr from the Nords. The price: Darrin Shannon,
    Benoit Hogue and '90 1st pick. Sabres won't go for it.
    Sabres Mogilny to a Patrick Division team, so the kid will only
    need to fly for 24 games a season instead of 40.
    
    Andy

    What's Chicago going to do with all these goalies?
    
    They now got Millen, Chevrier, and Clouthier.  Jimmy Waite and Ed
    Balfour are also in the system.  And next year, Dominik Hasek is coming
    over from Czechoslovakia.
    
    pete

"Yvonne"....Shame on me and my ten years of French.  I should have made
it the masculine verions "Yvon", which roughly equates to the english
Ivan.

Now, supposedly the reason for the trade, from Hartford's point of view
is that with Liut getting older, and with his knee an unknown, they
wanted to deal him before he became a free agent, in which case no one
might pick him up.  Hartford also wants to get Whitmore some playing
time.  El Sid has been getting better in goal, slowly whittling away
at his GAA, so Liut became expendable.

The only plus I see about Corriveau is that he's BIG (and young).
It will be interesting to see how he fits into Hartford.

Personally, I wanted a DEFENSEMEN!!!!

more as I hear about it...
Chainsaw

    Yesterday's trades:
    
    Mike Gartner from Stars to NYR for Ulf Dahlen and a future pick.
    NYR are looking good for playoffs, Dahlen is just another young,
    23, fragile Swede (ie.chicken-shit). Gartner's a young 30.
    
    Rich Sutter and Harold Snepts from Vancouver to St.Louis for
    Plavsic (a young 18yrold D that played for Team Canada Jr.)
    and a 1990 1st rounder and 1991 2nd rounder. Vancouver wins
    hands down on this one.
    
    Edmonton sends Jeff Sharples (who they just got from the Carson
    trade) to NYR for Reijo R (he played for Edm on their last cup).
    Edmonton also picked up Jim Korn from NJ for a 6 rounder.
    
    Hartford gave tough jerk Mark Laforge to Edm (or Cal) for a future.
    
    Alain Chevrier from Chicago to Pittsburgh for a future. Chicago
    already had 5 goalies.
    
    The biggest trade: Petr Stastny to NJ for Craig Wolanin and a 
    future. Wolanin didn't want to report at first but then changed
    his mind. Another stupid player that doesn't know a thing about
    Quebec City other than what he reads in stupid american papers.
    
    Jyrke Lumme from the Habs to Vancouver for a 2nd rounder.
    Carbonneau questionned the logic of this trade since they need
    help NOW, to which Savard that he should shutup since he's already
    on the hot seat for breaking curfew.
    
    By the looks of it, it'll be the B's and the Oilers in the Finals.
    
    Dave Manson and Scott Stevens got 3 games each for their fight
    last week.
    replie
    

    Re: Lumme for a 1991 second round pick.
    
    Habs make blockbuster deal that will surely help them in the future.
    Most other NHL teams are foolishly trading just to make a run at
    this year's cup.
    
    The Rangers are looking better and better all the time.
    
    It will be interesting to see how Statsny impacts NJ.  I don't want
    to be too hard on him (cause I like him) but he's won dick so far.
    
    The NoDicks have reduced their payroll by about $1,500,000 over
    the past couple of days.  Not bad eh!  They have also increased
    their crop of young talent.  
    
    I agree, Boston should be there - Edmonton looks good but I like
    Chicago as well.  Can't wait.
    
    See Ya
    James

Fellas...don't count Calgary out.  The can handle Edmonton.  That
division's playoffs should be about the most interesting.

Laforge went for Cam someone-or-other from Seattle of the WHL.


Watched the Whale defeat NY Islanders last night.  Good game.
The Whale played with good intensity.  They must have killed off
about 7 minutes worth of penalty in the first 9 of the game.

Corriveau is going to be GOOD.  I have no worries about this trade.
This kid is big (~215) and he hits like a freight train.  His
first hit, he absolutely levelled Baumgartner.

Another thing I'm starting to see on this club is players sticking up
for each other.  I'm not a big advocate of pugilistics on the ice,
but after one of the Islanders tough guys rode Krygier's head  into 
the boards in a cheap fashion, leaving Krygier stunned, Kastelek
went after him, beat the crap outta him, and got tossed.  Nice to see
them sticking up for each other.

Oh yeah, Dineen got a hat trick.  El Sid was phenomenal...

later,
'Saw

	Bob Hunt.  You were absolutely right about Dave Poulin.  When the
trade was made for Linesman I thought the B's were losing a quality playoff
performer.  But Poulin is a leader, a great guy to have on and off the ice.
If the Bruins can continue and win the Cup that trade will be the reason
why.  

				/Don

       I was thinking about that last night /Don. He's a good candidate for
    the 7th player award if you ask me.
                                      Denny

    Re: Poulin
    
    Ever since Kasper got traded the B's haven't had anyone to pick up his
    role.  Enter Dave Poulin, who's played even better.
    
    Gotta get Klusak and/or Thelven back though for the playoffs.  Hawgood 
    scares the hell out of me when he's back on defense.
    
    					Steve

    
     
     Re:-1
    
    
     How can you say get Kluzak back for the playoffs ? The B's would be
    better off with a Pylon on Defense than him. Thelvin would be a
    definate plus though, considering Bourques injury.
    
    -TH 

    Re: -1
    
    Klusak has taken a regular shift in 5-6 games this year and each time
    has looked competent IMHO.  Certainly not 100%, but still a good
    defenseman.  I believe the Bruins have won every game he's played in
    this year too.  I think he'll try one more comeback this year.
    
    					Steve

Whatever there problem is, they put it aside, as the beat the
Whale lasted night 4-3.

Tough weekend for the the Whale, as two of their Adams Division rivals
said "In your face!".

The Whalers, like water seeking its own level, always seem to gravitate
back to .500.

Anyone out there have a solid defense they wanna sell me?  Looks like
my second favs (Flames) will be my biggest hope for the playoffs...

'Saw

>>Anyone out there have a solid defense they wanna sell me?  Looks like
>>my second favs (Flames) will be my biggest hope for the playoffs...

Jesus, Chainsaw, you're up early!  Fall out of bed???  Get lucky and not
bother going home??

Ya, take the Leaf defense - they've only let in about 300 goals this year!
And take them ALL!

BTW, gained a point on the Blues and Hawks Saturday!

rick

       The B's have now won more games on the road than at home! I wonder
    how rare an occurance that is in pro sports.
                                         Denny

    The Whalers are the only team with a above .500 record, with a
    sub .500 home record I think...

Think you're right Walt.

They couldn't buy a game at home earlier this season.... 8^(

'Saw

PS  I had a cow one ;^)

    RE: more games on the road than at home
    
    Boston, Hartford, NYIslanders (I think)	to name three off
    the top of my head.
    
    The Wizard

    From this morning's Globe:
    
    Boston is 22-12-4 on the road, Hartford is 18-13-3 on the road (and
    with 6 games to go on the road, can still have a winning road record),
    and the Blues at 16-16-4 and Buffalo at 16-16-6 were the only other
    NHL clubs at .500 outside their own buildings.
    
    John

    John
    
    Since you have the Globe, would you also enter the teams that have
    more road wins than home wins, since that was the original 
    statement/question.  Thanks in advance.
    
    The Wizard

    
    
    Boston has 21 wins at home 22 on the road!
    Hartford has 14 wins at home 18 wins on the road!
    The Islanders have 13 wins at home 15 wins on the road!
    
    Thats it!
    
    
    Jim

    DEVILS!

    Brian Leetch of the Rangers broke his left ankle last night in a game
    against Toronto.  He'll be gone for the year.
    
    pete

    Habs-Oilers tie at 3, Roy stops 39. Ranford stop 22. 
    KINGS beat Sabres at the Aud, 6-5 in OT. GreAtzky gets a goal
    and 2 assts. 
    Reggie Lemelin gets a game suspension for spearing a NYI player.
    
    Andy

    Hey Andy.  That was a nice goal that your GreAtzky got credit for last
    night.
    Somebody was passing to him from behind the net.  First, Puppa missed
    the passout and then his defenseman kicked it into the net.  Whine was
    the closest to it so he gets credit.
    
    pete

Boy amd I pissed off that Lemelin gets suspended!

Now, I'm not a Bruins fan, but this is ridiculous.  

All year, centers and wingers have been crashing the net like its
a (*&(*ing basketball backboard.  All of a sudden, the crease means
absolutely nothing anymore.  

What a play:  send your 200 pound center in to take a dive into the
crease, feed the puck to the point, and let the point man tee it off
into the net cause the goalies plowed under.

I don't blame Lemelin for spearing....


I think it's high time the NHL took a look at some of it's new rules,
and the way the rejects from Mansfield Training School who don the stripes
enforce them....  Between all the bogus high sticking penalties that
supposedly draw blood, and all the crease interference this year, I think
that they this game is going downhill fast....

I'm mad!
Chainsaw

    >Boy am I pissed off that Lemelin gets suspended!
    
    He should be, this is his second violation, however, if what you
    say about the crease violations are true then perhaps the instigator
    should get his violation (whatever number) also.
    
    The Wizard

Wiz...

Yeah, I know it was his second.  I guess I'm just peeved at the
fact that they'll toss him for spearing, which is wrong, but
do nothing about the fact that the crease has made Grand Central
look like a desert this year.

I was talking to that girl at the Whaler's game (she works for them)
and she said the the Goaltenders Assn is going to make a concerted
effort this offseason to get some kind of rules instituted.

I think it's hard enough to face some of the shots these days, never
mind having to deal with bodies flyin' at ya....

8^)
'Saw

Frank


	I think you'll see the NHL do something about it next year or the year
after.  It's just happening to much.  They'll put in some rule.  The easiest
way would be to get rid of the magnetic nets.  Make those nets imovable and 
then see who goes crashing towards the crease.  :-)

Mike

    re .427
    	Lemelin litterally skated up to NYI #10, and SPEARED him 
    in the gut w/ a 1/2 windup. Reggie deserved more because it 
    was FLAGRANT and INTENTIONAL. A typical cheap shot from a goalie
    w/ 2 defensemens on his side, what's a defender to do? Goalies
    are not only known to be flakes but also to be pretty tough
    when they've got big guys ready to defend their every move. 
    I'm surprised he didn't get more, Roy got 3 or 4 games last 
    year for skating up to a North Star and slashing him.
    
    Andy
     

I'm not condoning it, Andy, and as I've said I'm not a Bruins fan.

But I do know that forwards and defensemen at least have a chance
to get a return shot in on the next trip up the ice.  Give the guy
an extra hard check or something...

When you stand around in the next after taking a few cheap shots
(or cheap elbows like I get playing soccer) you get damn frustrated
and finally get to the point where you wanna murder the guy....
Most times you take it and shut up.  Every once in a while you 
do end up going after the guy....

JMHO,
Chainsaw

�(or cheap elbows like I get playing soccer) you get damn frustrated
                         ^^^

That should be GOT.  I'm not crazy enough to play in the nets anymore
when I play....

8^)

    Re a few back:
    	A Buffalo player had the puck in his hand behind the net,
    tossed it ahead to Puppa, who missed it, then it bounced off Scott
    Arniel's skate and into the net!! Gretzky was closest to the puck
    so he got the goal. Cheap, but us Bruins fans will take it!!
    Also, in the same game, in OT, Doug Bodger went to play the puck in the
    right face-off circle, the puck literally jumped over his stick. I
    mean, the puck was just sitting there, he took a swipe at it, then it
    hopped right over his stick!! Wild. Then Mike Krushelnyski fired a shot
    that Puppa saved, Housley mis-played Cudelski(sp) big time, and he
    swooped in and fired it by Puppa. 
    	Also, in other action, the Rochester Amerks (Buffalo's top farm)
    blew away Maine (Boston). My hometown boys got SEVEN goals in the first
    period!!! They stretched it to 9-0 before Maine scored. Final: 12-3.
    				Rich
    

    >	Also, in other action, the Rochester Amerks (Buffalo's top farm)
    >blew away Maine (Boston). My hometown boys got SEVEN goals in the first
    >period!!! They stretched it to 9-0 before Maine scored. Final: 12-3.
    >				Rich
    
	This is because all Maine's players are playing for the Bs right
	now.

    Lemelin's suspension:
    	Reggie should've waited til #10 came back in his crease
    again, and slash him on an ankle or calf. That's what other 
    goalies do...! Goalies are sissy's, somewhat like QBs, they're
    tough when their D is around.
    
    Andy

So, Reggie Lemelin spears an Islander and gets a one game suspension.  And 
poor Patrick Roy got 3 or 4 games for some other rough act.

Ron Hextall, on the other hand, flings his stick away and starts a fistfight
with Chris Chelios in last year's Cup semi-finals ...

And he gets *TWELVE* games ???

Now, we have people complaining about the trespassing in the crease this year
and they're saying that the goalies should hit back ...

Hextall did just that in the 1987 Cup finals against Kent Nilsson of Edmonton
and he got an *EIGHT* game suspension then.

I guess it's the color of your jersey and the timing that counts.  If it's a
regular season game and you play for Boston or Montreal, then you were a 
naughty boy and have to go sit in the corner until you can behave better.

But if you're a Flyer and you're playing for the Cup, then you're a hardened
criminal who needs rehabilitation and harsh punishment.

Tsk, tsk ...

Bob Hunt

    	Bob, after the Nilsson affair Hextall served his eight game
    suspension at the start of the next season.  The NHL could've started
    the suspension in the playoffs, effectively ending the Flyers Cup
    chances.  I think the tradeoff factor figured in the length of the
    suspension.  Also last year's 12 game suspension was probably a
    message that *repeat* offenders would be treated more harshly. 
    
    				/Don

I hardly think goalies are sissy's...  You're extremely vulnerable when
making a save, that's why they put the crease there to begin with.

In the old days before the "remain" in the crease rule during fights,
you'd see a lot more goalies venture out to engage in pugilistics,
whether their defense is there or not.

When the goalie is out of the crease during regular play, no one
hits him, even though he's fair game.  Why not?  Because it sets up
a perfect excuse for retaliation at the other end, and in the long
run becomes counter-productive.

I would hardly call a guy who can stand up to some of those slap
shots a sissy.

Used to be if a player was in the crease when a goal was scored it
was automatically a washout, unless the player was being held in
there.  The area involved was actually a 'box', extending
from the ice, up 4' to crossbar height....  I don't know why the
refs aren't calling this.

Re Hextall...I didn't see the plays in question so I can't comment, but
sometimes it seems to me that the commish's office is pretty inconsistent...

JMHO,
'Saw

    I was thinking the same thing Bob.  It should be consistent no matter
    the instigator...
    
    -Walt

    Re 437, Hextall dropped his stick and hit another player with the
    blocker. I've tasted those before and I'm not sure if I'd rather take
    a stick in the ribs, a slash in the ankles, or a pop with the blocker.
    None are too fun. 
    				Rich
    
    

    A "stick in the ribs" is called spearing and can cause severe
    internal damage.  Speared players have had emergency operations to
    remove lacerated organs.
    
    Lemelin spears a player and gets a stinking one game.  Hextall
    gets into a fistfight with Chelios and gets 12 games.   That's 15%
    of the entire regular season.
    
    And don't forget that Chelios in Game 1 had given Brian Propp a
    concussion and wasn't even penalized for roughing or boarding or
    whatever.  Propp didn't return until Game 3 and was marginally
    effective.
    
    So, the Flyers lost Propp, Chelios wasn't even penalized, Hextall
    picked a fistfight with him, and Hextall got 12 games.
    
    Lemelin spears someone and gets 1 game.
    
    Like I said.  You wear orange and black and you got one foot in
    jail already.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Bob,
    
    The flyers got boned in the playoffs.  No doubt about it.  However,
    hockey is like working in DEC, which is like most other institutions.
    Once you develop a reputation it follows you.  Hextall's rep was
    very bad while Reggie and Roy' were very good.  Should things be that
    way?  I dunno...  But that's the way people are.  
    
    Chelios is always going to be a marked man for what he did to Propp.
    If he does something that would draw a normal three game suspension,
    he'll probably get more than that now.
    
    I don't like to point any fingers, but the powers that be in
    the NHL are very poor at decision making.  They waffled on the Flyers
    goalie trading early in the year which violated the spirit of the rules 
    and then failed to set a league precedent after the incident was over.
    
    It goes both ways, but the broad street bullies have a rep.  It is up
    to them to change it.  Boston and Montreal are the two least penalized
    teams in the NHL.  And for good reason, they have traded away their
    goons and tried to play a more finesse brand of hockey.  If and when
    Philly follows suit, they will receive those benefits of doubt as
    well.  
    
    Jeff 	

The league office is pretty inconsistent.  The refs are inconsistent.
Hockey is probably my favorite sport, but often times I can't abide
all the b.s. that happens with suspensions, etc etc.

Oh well....


On a better note, I'm ecstatic that the Flames beat da debils lasted
night in OT.  Who got the winner?

    
    	re- /don
    
    	> The Broons had goons at one time?
    
    	Once upon a time there was one little Indian named Stan Jonathen
    	who pummelled Pierre Bouchard so badly that chunks of blood were
    	coming outta the man's face...  The most recent fight that reminded
    	me of that was a similar beating that Bobby Carpenter received last
    	week at the hands of Ulf Samuelson of the Whalers... not a pretty
    	sight.  Fred Cusick said, "There's no way that just fists could
    	cause that much blood..."  And Derek responded with "Yes, they
    	can!"...  
    
    	Ring any bells?  How about Wensink?  Miller?  They rang a few
    	bells...

    Hey, only Montreal gets preferential treatment from the league.
    Don't start including the Bruins as well.
    
    James

       The 'real' Big Bad Broons were circa 20 years ago. Back then they
    used to say the B's treated the puck like a 'hunk of meat someone threw
    on the ice'!
                                          Denny

    
    	Allright here's a question for you veteran fans out there-
    
    	Back before I was a gleam in my mom and dad's eye the B's
    	had a player named Eddie Shore.  His number is hanging up in the
    	rafters at the Gahden with Orr, Bucyk, Espo et al.  
    
    	What was it that he did to Ace Bailey to get booted from the
    	league.  I was drunk in a bar and some old guy from Montreal
    	starting telling stories about the good ole days and I couldn't
    	quite understand or remember just what he said had happened
    	but it seemed pretty heinous.
    
    	any help?

    He didn't get booted from the league but he did get suspended for
    a while.  Shore cleaned Bailey's clock one day I think by charging
    at him full speed while Bailey wasn't looking and the resultant
    injury forced Bailey to retire from the NHL.
    
    Shore is a Hall of Famer and owned the Springfield Indians of the
    AHL for many, many years.
    
    John

Question for anyone who knows:

	Is Mike Vernon hurt?  I've notice the Flames are playing
	Wamsley a lot, but they don't get super coverage in our
	newspaper...

	Anyone know???

'Saw

    Vernon's been having back problems.  Needs lots of rest.
    
    pete

Thanks Pete....

Okay, I'm going to start a controversial discussion.

Let me start by saying that I'm in favor of some of the new tighter rules
they've got about stick penalties, but last night, in the Whalers-Oilers
game I saw something that made me rethink the rule as it is.

Messier was circling the net.  Francis was behing him, and had his stick
on Messier's left arm.  Messier lifted his arm out, and as he did so,
Francis stick worked its way up Messier's arm, and ultimately clipped
him on the bridge of the nose.  None of this was intentional on
either Messier's or Francis part, in fact, I'd say it was part of the
game.

Now, I can understand the 5 minute major for blood, but I'm a little
peeved about the automatic ejection.

If it was an intentional act, I can see the ejection.  If it was a 
deliberate attempt to injure I can see the ejection.  But, Ronnie 
Francis is a pretty clean player, and intentionally doing stuff like
that is not his style.

I think the rule should be amended that there is no ejection if the
ref judges the act non-intentional.  What do you all think?

Also, I've seen some things like intentional boarding where a guy will
get two minutes.  I think boarding is a much more dangerous thing than
a small facial cut caused by inadvertant high sticks.  

Again, it shows me the gross inconsistencies of NHL rulemaking/officiating.

What do you all think????

Chainsaw

PS  A lot of this could be eliminated by requiring all players to be
    wearing full face shields/cages like in college hockey....

    
    
    Re.-1
    
    
         Alot of the stick penalty's are caused beacuase the stick is above
    the waist, at no time should your stick come above the waist if it does
    then you are reponsible for it, no matter what. As far as the Messier
    incident, it sounds like Messier had beaten him and was pulling away
    when Francis tried to slow him down by using his stick. Intentional or
    not Francis let his stick get away from him and he was solely
    reponsible for it. I did not see the incident so this is just my
    opinion.
    
      Granted there are alot of inconsistant calls made in regaurding stick
    penalties. That is the leagues fault, not the players.  If a stick is
    around someones head, what is it doing there ? Eyeballs and teeth now
    become the object and  not the puck.
     
    
      As far as going to full cages, it will cause more high
    sticking,IMHO. Look back 15 years ago when you did'nt have all the 
    stick to head injuries, sticks rarley came above the waist, except for
    the Wayne Maki, Ted Green incident. Now with all players wearing full
    head gear from midgets through college, the sticks are much higher. I
    don't  think that going to full cages is the answer, this is hockey not
    lacross.  It would make matters worse I believe, IMO.
    
    -TH

I don't think that Francis was trying to slow him down as much
as just harass him a little.  It goes on all the time.

I guess where I'm coming from is that I've seen intentional high sticks,
and I've seen accidentals.  5 minutes is a good penalty if you draw
blood.  If it's intentional, then you should get ejected.

As for the full shields/cages, I'd be for them, just for the fact that
the more protection you can get the better.  Football equipment has
improved tremendously in 20 years, hockey equipment should get better too,
and be used.

Changing the subject slightly, I caught the MASS (MIAA?) HS Hockey
Championships on Fri nite on NESN.  The game between BC High and
someone-or-other Catholic was a good game....

'Saw

Saw,

I never was a fan of shields, masks, and so on:  they cut down on your
vision and are hot as hell when you're skating around like mad.

As far as the stick goes, I would be in favour of a rule stating that a
stick going above the opposing player's shoulder is an auto two minutes -
no need to hit or anything.  The five minutes for blood has never made any
sense to me:  seems like 9 times out of 10 it's an accident and some guy
gets sent off who shouldn't.  A hell of a lot of hockey games have been
decided in that no-substitution five minutes, too...

rick

    Hi,
    As TH said, each player is RESPONSIBLE for the control of his stick,
    not the league, nor the refs nor the audience...etc.  I agree with
    -1, stick above shoulders, you're gone.
    
    				  Tom
    
    		JMHO

    < Note 9.455 by DISCVR::MSAIA >
                              -< Helmets yes, Cages no. >-

    >          As far as going to full cages, it will cause more high
    > sticking,IMHO. Look back 15 years ago when you did'nt have all the 
    > stick to head injuries, sticks rarley came above the waist, except for
    > the Wayne Maki, Ted Green incident. Now with all players wearing full
    > head gear from midgets through college, the sticks are much higher. I
    > don't  think that going to full cages is the answer, this is hockey not
    >lacross.  It would make matters worse I believe, IMO.
    
    	TOTAL B.S.
    
    	It's not the cages that cause the sticks to be up there, it's
    poor coaching and poor officiating.  The kids have to be taught
    that a stick above the shoulders will mean a trip to the box.
    
    Leo
    
    ps. nothing personal here, just tired of hearing the same line
    

    I'm not even going to get into this one . 
    
     All i can say is that Poor Coaching isn't any cause for your High
    Sticking.
    
    Coach......

    Re.-1
    
       I dont think that it's total B.S. Just go watch a junior game, H.S.
    or other games. The sticks are everywhere. True poor coaching and
    officiating is there, but people must be responsible for thier own
    sticks end of story. If you watch games of 15 years ago the sticks
    never came up that high, partly because noone wanted a stick in the
    chops.  I'm not saying that nobody ever got hit above the head, but 
    it was no way as frequent as it is now.
    
    
       Now its seems as almost anything  goes. Sure I think that the rule
    definetly needs to be evaluated, but then again we have a league
    president that is basically useless.
    
       Watch a colligiate level game, these guys kill each other, brutal
    hits, and most of the time the sticks are up nice and high too. I bet
    that it would'nt be half as rough without helmets on.
    
    
    -TH

RE. .460

Poor coaching.................When a youth/high school/college coach sees

his players carrying/using their sticks high and don't do anything about 

it or worse when they approve of it.  It is the coaches responsibility to

TEACH them to have control of their sticks, and it is up to the refs to

make sure that the rules are enforced.


Re. .461

I do watch hockey at different levels(coach peewees,go to H.S.and collegiate

games) and I still feel that it is not because of the masks but because the

kids have not felt enough retribution for their carelessness with the sticks.

THE RULES HAVE TO BE ENFORCED.

    
    I agree that the 'automatic' call is bogus.  When the ref is in
    doubt (didn't see the play) there is reason to make the call since
    some guys will try the rough stuff when they know they won't be
    seen, but when the high stick is purely accidental, the ref should
    have the chance to *not* make the call.  Many times the player taking
    the stick has caused it himself by lifting the stick of the guy
    he's covering.  If you lift a guy's stick and then knock him off
    balance chances are his stick could go anywhere. Another common
    occurance is in the corners where a player has to swing his stick
    around from one hand to the other while he's digging the puck out.
    
    Another case I remember was where an opposing player took a slapper
    to clear the puck in the zone when a Bruin stepped in front of him
    just as he let go.  The Bruin got clipped by the follow-through
    on the shot.  Clearly an accident, but under the current rules,
    the penalty ensued.
    
    The refs are asked to rule all the time on whether an icing is
    intentional or not, or whether a player could have prevented it.
    I think when a high stick is clearly incidental, he should have
    the same option to not make the call.
    
    -Dick
    

    
    	The automatic call is a poor rule.  Mark my words, a playoff
    	game will be decided this year because after getting clipped
    	in the face a player will bite his lip or something in order 
    	to get the 5 minute penalty and the other player ejected.
    
    	Hockey has come a LOOOONG way but still has quite a ways to
    	go.   

Already has happened.

I read an article in the paper about Ray Bourque.  (For the record,
I like Ray, and wished he played for gOwHAle).  Anyway, it stated
or he admitted, to using a blood cap in a playoff game lasted year.

Not cool...

Ziegler does have to go.  He proved to me how inept he was when
the "Have another donut you fat pig" Koharski incident happened...

Chainsaw

    
    
    re .465
    
    What paper was that in about Bourque?
    
    If it was indeed a true quote from Ray, it goes against what he 
    he stated in several interviews immediately after the accusations were
    publisized.
    
    Lou

>I read an article in the paper about Ray Bourque.  (For the record,
>I like Ray, and wished he played for gOwHAle).  Anyway, it stated
>or he admitted, to using a blood cap in a playoff game lasted year.

So you believe everything you read?  Personally, I think it is a load of
sh!t.  Was Ray skating around, playing all-out playoff hockey like only
he can, with a blood cap in his mouth, patiently waiting for the proper
moment to chop down on it?  I seriuosly doubt it and unless I see a clip
of Ray saying "I did it" then I won't believe it.  Not an attack, just MHO.

-Scott

Full face and cage shields are THE reason for the increase in high 
sticking in the last 10 years. The ones who don't believe that, 
are the ones w/'TOTAL BS'. In junior hockey the small guy all of 
a sudden is tougher and chippier than ever since he's protected 
behind that shield. An automatic penalty for having your stick 
above the shoulder? Get real. 5 or 6 years ago they were giving 
penalties for hitting the puck above the shoulders w/the stick, 
it lasted only 1 year. I like the rule the way it is now, it 
ain't perfect but it's better than anybody else suggested. Whoever
said that "you're responsible for your own stick" is right on.

Andy

Re Bourque:

Okay, dudes, no need to jump in the middle of my sh_t.  I was just
telling you what I read.  I didn't say I believed it, I didn't say
I took it to heart, I said I *read* it...

I like Ray Bourque.  If there was one guy I could steal from the Broons,
it would be him, closely followed by Janney.

If I'm not mistaken, it was the Hartford Courant.  Most days, because
I'm pressed for time, I skim/speed-read the paper.  It was a while back,
definitely.

Re the stick rules:

I think a lot of the stuff should be re-thought.  Some of the rules
they've added (ie hand pass in d-zone) I like.  Others, forget it.

Personally, I think that too many players get away with boarding
(intentional and unintentional), which in my mind is much more dangerous
that any sticking penalty save the intentional-fight-related-decapitation
attempt...

JMHO,
Chainsaw

	OK.   So the shields are the cause of the high sticks....


So what do you do about it?   Get rid of them?  Or work harder on teaching

kids that high sticks will get you a trip to the box or out of the game?


I'm for the latter and from what I have seen so aren't the people who are

involved in youth hockey.

Leo

	Shields and cages make high sticking not as dangerous.  This causes
the refs to call the high sticks less often, which cuaes more high sticks 
to occur.  I can't see why there is any question on how to stop it.  It 
easy, have the ref's call ALL high sticks.  From PeeWee to Juniors to the
NHL.

Mc

    
    	The only problem with calling ALL high sticks is that you
    	get players like Linseman who will play little tricks to
    	MAKE the other players stick go high.  
    
    	By having an automatic penalty for that you create a situation
    	where bogus penalties can change the complexion of a game.
    
    	

    
    
    As far as Bourque chomping on a blood capsule in the playoffs last
    year, that has to be the most wildest load of horse shit I've heard in
    a long time. Like a player of his quality or caliber would even think
    to stoop so low is unreal. The guy plays 60 minutes of hockey every
    time he playes.
    
      I believe it stated about 2 months ago in the Toronto/Montreal
    papers, it made its way to the Boston papers shortly after. He never
    admitted to biting a capsule, as a matter of fact he denied it the
    whole time it was in the press. As you can see it never really went
    far, it was such a stupid story. This came out when the B's were really
    flying and it seemed that the only way to slow them down is by some bad
    press. 
    
      It did'nt work and it goes back to the old saying believe 1/4 of what
    your read and 1/2 of what you hear and you will be fine.
    
      I love the press sometimes, they just print what they want,
    unsubstanciated, hearsay, or Joe Blow from EBF says..... it must be
    true print it. Gimmie a break.
    
     Re. Linseman, If he causes you to draw a penalty on him with your
    stick, thats what he wants to do. If you raise you stick to an opposing
    player accidental or otherwise YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, REGAURDLESS.
    If he can draw a penalty more power to him because he did exactly what
    he wanted to 2 minute PP, and you in the box for a sticking penalty
    with him laughing. Yes I'm pro KTRL.
    
    -TH

    Saw,
    
    See what you started.  You said you *READ* something - but it was
    about one of the sacred cows of Beantown. Doesn't thoust know that
    that stuff aint allowed.  Change the story to some other player,
    on some other team ;-), will ya!! Like GoWhALe!! ;-)
    
    JD

Yeah, JD, I see what you mean.

I used to be a Bruin fan years ago.  I still root for them on
occasion.  

The funny thing is that, while I never stated I believed what I read,
or that I took it to heart, the general climate is that I did.
Logically it's really pretty funny, since folks are reading more into
what I wrote than is really there.

Read:  to assimilate something in print.  No belief or assumption of
       correctness involved, save to the point of libelous material.

Bottom line, I still feel that boarding is a worse situation than
sticking.  As to face shields, I don't remember his name, but there
was a Philly player back in the mid-70s who's career (I think) was ended
by an errant puck to the face, on a clearing pass by his own player.
A shield might have prevented that injury....

As to whether or not Bourque did that, I don't really care...

'Saw

    	Hey 'Saw, you must be right.  I read the same thing about Bourque
    in this week's Enquirer.  It's just *gotta* be true if it's in there!
    
    				/Don

�The funny thing is that, while I never stated I believed what I read,
�or that I took it to heart, the general climate is that I did.
    
    Funny thing, I haven't seen anyone accuse you of believing it or of
    just stirring up trouble.

No one's accusing me, Mac, but I've gotten a few of these
"You can't believe everything you read" comments.  Perhaps the you
is intended as the generic you, more properly equated to "one" in 
the King's English (;^))...

But, I just mentioned what I read...no connotation of belief was intended.
I mentioned it to raise the possibility of what an unscrupulous player
might do...

re /Don:

	Dammit, you misread that article.  It was all about Ray Bourque
	being rescued from a Bigfoot female in heat, who was chasing 
	him.  He was rescued by some Aliens who were looking for Cher
	because they wanted her to give a lecture on cosmetic surgery.

	Get it right nexted time!

    
    	I thought that they had started using a five minute boarding
    	penalty... Didn't Bob Sweeney get called for that last year
    	against Les Habs in the playoffs?  
    
    	

    re .475
    
    Saw
    
    Didn't want it to sound like I came down on you. I heard the rumors
    and read articles that stated it ws true also. I also read articles
    and saw interviews that Bourque denied it.
    
    However players have been known to change their minds, and papers have
    been known to magnify the truth. 
    
    I wouldn't jump a fellow Giant fan anyway................. :-)
    
    
    Lou

No sweat Phantom...I've been a little testy lately, and I apologize
if I jumped anyone....

Better days are coming....8^)

All hockey players should strive to win the Lady Bing!

chainsaw

    
    
    The you that I was implying is a generic you and not ment towards
    anyone in the conference. You = Hockey player is what it meant.
    
    As far as that Lady Bing stuff I just can't relate :*)
    
    - TH

Seems to me that I read somewhere that Chainsaw believes everything he reads.

Now where the hell did I see that? [ picture of Mike JN scratching his haid]


                          HAHAHAHAHAHAHA (TM) GOTCHA FRANK!!!

                                        {E}
                                 {K} 
                         {I}     ____            {J}   {N}
                   {M}          | || |    ________        _________
                  _lL___n __n___r----j  ,' WOMENS `_,   ,' BOURBON `_
                `(______________L___;___L___________|___L____________|
                /o=o[]=-O-O-O-O `o=o     ooo    ooo   ooo      ooo

    
            

    
    Quick!  Get a large (TM) on that Choo-choo!
    

    	Say whay you will about hockey, but it's the only sport left
    where the players aren't pampered, spoiled, overinflated ego cases
    who have a very distorted view of the importance of what they do.
    The only *man's* sport left.
    
    				/Don

Wrongo, Slasher...

The manliest of sports is the Lumberjack Contest Circuit.

Manly men, sweaty men, men with beards and hairy chests reeking of
raw testosterone, perspiring profusely in the summer sun as they
cut and saw, log roll and climb timbers...

Ay, they just don't make men like that anymore...

Take a souped up power chainsaw and cut through a log, and see
if you don't feel manly....

Yep, World Champion Lumberjack es mui macho!

Chainsaw

    I heard a report last night saying that Bob Probert is practicing
    with the Red Wings now that they have returned from their road trip. 
    He is expected to begin playing again in Sunday's game in Chicago. 
    
    As of now, under conditions of his temporary work visa, he cannot 
    play any games in Canada.  If he does, he is said to have voluntarily
    deported and won't be allowed back in the US. 
    
    pete

	Alright...when do the B's and Wing's play again.  Probert and Neely
going at it would be quite a fight.

Mc

    Probert played last night against the Stars. Wings lost 5-1, Probie
    fought w/ Shane Curla on his 1st shift, he later scored the only
    Wing goal. W/ only 5 games left, the Wings are not looking good
    for the playoffs, (Pete: my KINGS got in a few weeks ago :*))
    
    Chelios is out for the remainder of the season but may be back 
    in a later series (ie. if Mtl beats Buffalo).
    
    GreAtzky hurt his back and may be out indefinitely, but the KINGS
    still hung on to beat the Isles 3-1.
    
    Dale Hawerchuck figures if the Jets stick to playing w/ 4 lines for
    the remainder of his career, he can play 'til 40 w/ a 2yr sabbatical.
    
    Neely gets 3 as Mylnikov the siv left 4 easy goals in the 1st 30 mins
    and the B's beat the Nords 7-3.
    
    Andy
    

re .489 by KAOFS::WATTERS                                       
<    Probert played last night against the Stars. Wings lost 5-1, Probie
<    fought w/ Shane Curla on his 1st shift, he later scored the only
<    Wing goal. W/ only 5 games left, the Wings are not looking good
<    for the playoffs, (Pete: my KINGS got in a few weeks ago :*))
    
 No Andy, your Kings BACKED in a few weeks ago!!!
    
    BTW, Probert didn't fight with anybody last night.  Churla tried to
    start something after the whistle then Probie gave him a tap and
    ignored him.  No penalties called.     Quit trying to give Bob a bad
    name. :-).   He's making the effort.
    
    pete

    re -.1
    	Give Bob a bad name? Hell, he scored 3 goals in 3 games this
    past week. Mind you they lost 2 out of 3 games. Wings will
    be flying South in another week, while the KINGS will rise from
    the South. :*)
    	Iafrate is out for the year, Thibodeau is another one that's
    out for the year. Therefore it looks like the Leafs won't last
    in the playoffs since the lost too much offense (if they would've
    lost on defense it couldn't of hurt too much).
    	Saw Habs on parts of Friday's and Saturday's games and I can
    honestly say that nobody is in a hurry to give Todd Ewen a good
    fight. Remember, he knocked down Probert last year (right Pete?)
    	Lafontaine and Richer got their 50ths on the weekend, they
    join Hull, Neely and Bellows (any others???)
    
    Andy

    While not in the NHL, this is a hockey subject.  Saturday night,
    The Seattle Thunderbirds opened their playoff series with the
    Tri-Cities somethingorothers at home (WHL playoffs).
    
    Anyways, there was a really gnarly fight - like some T-birds fans
    were razzing the Tri-Cities players, who were getting whipped by
    the T-birds, anyways, the tri-cities bench and the fans started
    a battle royal.  The fans got holded of some hockey sticks and were
    swinging and a chopping at the players, and the players were swinging
    and a chopping back. The Seattle police were called into action.
     It was unreal.  Three tri-cities players have been suspended. 
    There were many ejections of fans, about 5 fans were arrested, one
    policman was hospitalized (Stick to the mouth, ouch!).  The league
    and the team are going to look into it.  
    
    JD

JD

The Seattle/Tri-cities rivalry is very heated.  The game I went to, the
Tri-cities fans were there in force.  

Seattle beat them, like 10-5 or something, but everytime Tri would score,
their fans would jump up and ring cowbells and stuff.  The SEattle fans
would jump up and yell ____ you, and give them the bird.

It's no wonder that a riot broke out.

Nasty, nasty incident....

'Saw

    
    Saw the 'lowlights' of that one on the news...the most savage fight
    I have ever seen.  There was a crush of players up against the boards
    and on the bench swinging their sticks like battle-axes at the fans.
    I don't know why they didn't retreat, perhaps they couldn't with
    the crowd behind them.                   
    
    Some fans then managed to wrest a few sticks from the players and
    they in turn had the sticks flailing back at the players.  They
    were'nt fooling around either, with full over-the-top chops.
    
    I'm surprised someone isn't dead, or at least srewed up with permanent
    brain damage.  Man, that was ugly.
    
    -Dick
    

>    
>    Some fans then managed to wrest a few sticks from the players and
>    they in turn had the sticks flailing back at the players.  They
>    were'nt fooling around either, with full over-the-top chops.
		
	From what I saw there was plenty of room for the fans to retreat.
It just amazes me that someone would sit there and try to fight hockey players
in full uniform.  I woulda been heading for the exit.  Even if I grabbed a stick
I wouldn't want to exchange blows with someone in pads, cage and helemt while 
I was in street clothes.

Mc

    RE .491
    
    Andy, your favourite goon Ewen put Probert down a few years back, not
    last year.   
    
    pete
    

    re -.1: Semantics Pete, 1 or 2 years, who cares? I was still right.
    
    In non-NHL action on the weekend, Team Canada won the first ever
    Womens World Championship here in Ottawa. They beat the USA 5-2
    in the finals. A few of the Canadians are on scholarships in the
    States. Finland beat Sweden 6-3 for the bronze. Some girls can
    really motor, checking was legal at Swedens request (there's one
    for Don Cherry).
    
    Andy
    

> Lafontaine and Richer got their 50ths on the weekend, they
> join Hull, Neely and Bellows (any others???)

And Yzerman.....

Alan S.

    Yzerman has 60+...
    
    re:Seattle game... 
    The team could have "retreated" to the ice...

    Gary Leeman nets his 49th in a 5-4 loss to Minnesota.  The North
    Star victory pretty well seals the fate of the hapless Red Wings.
    Minnie has a five point lead and both teams have 3 games left. 
    I wonder what Probert is going to do with all his spare time! (?)
    
    James

>    re:Seattle game... 
>    The team could have "retreated" to the ice...

	Yes, it could and should have.  I wasn't trying to put blame solely on
the fans becuase they did not retreat.  The players should not have been 
up there.  It just realy amzed me that people would sit there exchanging
siwngs of a hockey with players in full uniform. Again, both parties 
were wrong, and maybe the players more so, but the fans were certainly 
not the smartest.

Mike

	Ranger Win or DEVIL Loss or ties by both teams clinches
Patrick Division for the Rangers!

	It's about time :^)

Jim M

    Modano's got 73pts and is 19. Makarov has 80 and is 33yrsold.
    If it wouldn't of been for the stupidity of Tony O and Gene
    Ubriaco in Pittsburgh, Mark Recchi would've won it. He was cut
    in October and returned when Craig Patrick came in. His stats
    are pretty good (can't remember).
    
    	Some NHL managers are suggesting to have a pool for the 
    5 teams that don't make the playoffs, starting in 1991. The draft
    would stay the same except instead of the 5 non-playoff teams
    picking in order of least points to highest, they'll randomly pick
    them out of a hat. Why in 1991? Eric Lindros. Some teams are afraid
    others will throw away the last month of the season, like some
    NBA teams used to do before they started using this pool scheme.
    
    	Chris Chelios starts skating this week, Craig Ludwig's out
    til the playoffs, Mario Lemieux is skating. Also, my newspaper
    says that the B's are 5 goals ahead of the Habs for the Jennings
    (225-230).
    
    Andy

    Rangers will get eliminated in round one. Too bad those losers managed
    to win the division.
    
    GO DEVILS!!!!!!

Mc --

You weren't no girly-mon.  Even us toofless mountain man types, while
we'll wrassle a grizz on occasion, tend to shy away from lumber swinging
hockey players in full regalia...

It's called being smart 8^)

'Saw

    re Seattle,
    
    The quote from the Tri-Cities Coach "They (security folks) should
    have kicked the fans out after the first time they showered us with
    beer."   I guess the fans behind the bench were throwing beer at
    the players, and taunting them all night long.  Coupled wif the
    fack that Tri-Cities was getting smoked again, the players lost
    their cool.
    
    Re WARDLE
    
    HOW NICE OF YOU TO SHOW UP AT THE LASTED MOMENT - WHERE WERE YOU
    ALL SEASON BUB, WHEN THE DEBILS WERE GETTING BLOWN OUT.  THEY ARE
    TO BLAM, RANGERS ROOOOLLLLZZZ.
    
    JD

>    Rangers will get eliminated in round one. Too bad those losers managed
>    to win the division.
    
 	I don't know Jim.. Got to like the Rangers chances. The Garden will 
be rockin' and if the B's come through the Adams Division - well, the Rangers
have actually played VERY well against them this year.

	Could be the year for the Broadway Blueshirts!

	Go Raaaaangers :^)

	Jim M

    Jim, how long *has* it beeen since the Rangers won their division?

>    Jim, how long *has* it beeen since the Rangers won their division?

	You ask with the tone of one who knows, Big Mac :^)

	I have heard 48 years as the figure that has been bandied about.
	Like I said, it's about time :^)

	Jim M

�	You ask with the tone of one who knows, Big Mac :^)
    
    Actually I did hear it on Sports Center the other night, but I forgot. 
    I just remembered that it had been a *long* time.

    Mac, it's close to the last time the Red Sox won a champeeenship.
    
    JoJ

> 	I don't know Jim.. Got to like the Rangers chances. The Garden will 
>be rockin' and if the B's come through the Adams Division - well, the Rangers
>have actually played VERY well against them this year.
>
>	Could be the year for the Broadway Blueshirts!
>
>	Go Raaaaangers :^)
>
>	Jim M
    
    Careful there, Jim.  You sound like that zipperhead who has a column 
    in the Hockey News...  Stan Fishsomethingorother.  No one compares to the
    Rangers, according to him. 

    
    	The Rangers upset the Islanders for the division title in
    	1978-79.  That was the year that the Canadiens squeeked past
    	the B's in seven games, largely helped by a dubious too many
    	men on the ice penalty in the Forum...
    
    	Les Habs went on to roll over the Rangers in five 

    
    	So, are the flyers gonna steal the last playoff spot in the
    Patrick or wot?  Here's the deal:
    
    Pitt	71 points	3 games left
    Fly		69 points	4 games left
    Isle	69 points	3 games left
    
    	Inquiring minds want to know!
    
    sean

Karen, I'm surprised at you.  YOu call yourself a hockey fan
and you don't know Stan Fischler?   He's one of the premier
writers on the game.  

In fact, Stan's been covering the game since Jesus threw the
second to the last lunch....

He musta said somethin' bad about the broons, eh?  8^)

latered,
'Saw

    I know who he is.  I didn't know how to spell his last name.  (-;
    He might be a "premier writer" but I think he's a dork.  Rangers
    this, Rangers that.... and.....
    
    he said that Ray Bourque is far and away a better player than 
    Bobby Orr ever was.  That ain't a quote but it comes close.
     

Geez, Karen....Dork is a might strong word...

It might help to know that Stan is from New York.  He's about as
pro-Rangers as you are Pro-Bruins...8^)


latered 8^)
Chainsaw

    
    	Fischler is weak.  He didn't even so much as mention Raymond
    	Bourque in his column when he was discussing the Hart Trophy.
    
    	Everybody in hockey knows that Bourque has been the inspiration
    	behind the Bruins and without him we'd be fighting for a playoff
    	spot.  With him we have the best record in the league...

        
    this in todays Globe....
    
    HART Trophy leaders
    
    				GP	G	A	Pts.	+/-
    Ray Bourque			72	19	62	81	29
    Wayne Gretzky, LA		73	40     102     142	 8
    Mark Messier, Edmon		77	44	82     126	18
    Brett Hull, SL		77	70	40     110	 6
    Pat LaFontaine, NYI		71	51	47	98     -14
    
    If you're going by points, the last 4 have 'em, but only Messier
    has a strong +/-.  I still think Bourque should get it though :^)
    
    NORRIS Trophy leaders
    
    Ray Bourque			72	19	62	81	29
    Al MacInnis, Calg		76	27	59	86	21
    Paul Coffey, Pitts		77	28	72	100    -23
    Phil Housley, Buff		76	21	56	77	 9
    Doug Wilson, Chi		68	21	50	71	14
    
    The only one (IMO) that has a shot (other than Bourque who I think
    is a lock) is Al MacInnis.  He's the closest in the numbers anywy.
    Paul Coffey??? COME ON!!!  This is for best DEFENSEMAN....who are
    supposed to DEFEND first.  How the hell can a guy with a +/- of
    -23 even be in the running???  What a joke!  The guy obviously
    does NOT play defense!! (Even if that's where he lines up)
    
    Ralph
    
    

    
    				W	L	T	Pts	GF	GA
    
    	1. Boston Bruins	44	25	 7	95	278	255
    	2. Calgary Flames	39	23	15	93	330	257
    	3. Buffalo Sabres	41	27	 8	90	268	237
    	4. Montreal Canadians	40	28	 9	89	280	229
    	5. Edmonton Oilers	36	27	14	86	305	274
    		.
    		.
    	9. Hartford Whalers	37	32	 7	81	266	259
    

    RE: .520,
    
    Minor correction:
    
    The Bruins have only given up 225 goals....not 255.
    
    
    Nelly

    	'Saw, Fishler is the gossip columnist of the NHL.  He sips!
    
    				/Don

Well, I like him.  

But let me explain that I can read a writer with whom I *totally*
disagree, and still like him for his style of writing, his expository
skills, and various other intangibles.

I am not a New York fan, but I've been exposed to Fishler for years,
and have always liked his style.

Then again, I like Shakespeare, and a lot of people don't, so maybe
I'm weird....(yeah, that's it...like the Weird Sisters...)

JMHO,
Chainsaw

PS  But, he can't hold a candle to the guys on the Sportswriters.  He
    couldn't even carry their jocks....8^)

			    Wales Conference -               
    
             Adams Division                   Patrick Division 
                         W  L  T Pts                         W  L  T Pts
x-Boston Bruins         44 25  7  95  x-New York Rangers    35 28 13  83
x-Buffalo Sabres        41 27  8  90  x-New Jersey Devils   34 34  8  76
x-Montreal Canadiens    40 28  9  89    Washington Capitals 34 37  5  73
x-Hartford Whalers      37 32  7  81    Pittsburg Penguins  32 38  7  71
  Quebec Nordiques      12 57  7  31    Philadelphia Flyers 30 38  9  69
                                        New York Islanders  29 37 11  69
     
           		Campbell Conference -
            
            Norris Division                   Smythe Division
x-Chicago Blackhawks    39 32  6  84  x-Calgary Flames      39 23 15  93
x-St. Louis Blues       36 32  9  81  x-Edmonton Oilers     36 27 14  86
x-Toronto Maple Leafs   37 36  4  78  x-Winnipeg Jets       36 31 10  82
  Minnesota North Stars 35 38  4  74  x-Los Angeles Kings   34 36  6  74
  Detroit Red Wings     28 36 13  69    Vancouver Canucks   24 40 14  62
   x - clinched playoff berth

    DEVILS!

	Rangers clinch Patrick - coming back from a 4-1 defecit to
win 7-4....


	Jim M

    
    way to go rangers!!!!!!!!!!
    
    dinz
    

       First one in 48 years for da Rangers.
                                         Denny

    
    
    B's win tommorrow night and they clinch the Adams division and The
    Best Record....
    
    
    Jim

    Alright.  Way to go Rangers.  I be happy.
    
    JD

Congrats to the Rangers....

And while I'm at it, I'd like to say what a good deal I think getting
Corriveau was for the Whale.  This guy is starting to feel at home
and has scored 4 goals in three games...

Nothing against Liut, but I'm getting really ticked at all the
Whaler's fans who keep putting down the general management for this
trade.

Quite simply, Corriveau is becoming a force.  He is not afraid to
take the body, and will mix it up in the corners.  He took a viscious
two handed slash from a Pens defensmen last night as he scored the
goal which brought the Whale within one...

Also, Randy Ladouceur's playing has improved a lot too...

so, all I can say is gOwHAle...

Chainsaw

    Congrats to the rangers, Nielson and the GM must look like hero's in
    the N.Y. papers after last years fiasco. How does that Nichols trade
    look now ?
    
    -TH

    
    	Congrats to the Rangers... but I feel sorry for them
    	low life Lemmings... err Whale-splooge-thingys because
    	they are gonna get rocked in the first round by the 
    	Big, Bad, Broons.

	Was dat da DinZ I just saw in here?!?! Or is ma eyebones givin' me 
        Hallugeons (tm)

Mike JN

Re Bruins Whalers playoff:

	I don't make predictions, but I'll tell you, the Whale would
	rather face the B's than the Sabres to start.

	Tonight's game is the deciding game in the season series, and
	the Whale has played well against the Bruins...

	I can't wait.  It'll probably be one of the BEST playoff series
	this year.

Chainsaw

AND, if the Whale should happen to beat the Bruins, we'll see if
Q has the Cojones (see, spelled it right thised time) to come in
here and eat some crow....

'Saw

    'Saw, I'm a Broon fan and I agree wif you. The Adams has 4 of the top 9
    teams OVERALL. Hartford has the 9th best record in the NHL, and
    if they didnt have to play the B's,Sabres and Habs so many times they
    might be even higher.
    				Rich
    	       BTW, I think Fischler is dork, too :-)
    
    

    	The Whalers would've been contenders for 1st place in the Patrick
    or Norris divisions.  And when you look at Hartford's division record
    what Rich says makes sense.
    
    				/Don  

    re .537, .538:
    
    Points well taken, but don't forget that Boston/Montreal/Buffalo/Hartford  
    got to play the undisputed worst team in hockey (Quebec) more often
    than teams from the other divisions...that helped them in accruing high
    point totals in comparison with Patrick/Smythe/Norris teams.
    
    
    py

Yeah, but that doesn't skew it that much.

Division wise, the Whale has their best record against Boston, I believe.

At any rate, with the Mass Pike rivalry, this is going to be one of the
best series in a long time.  I'm excited because, whether the Whale
wins or loses, we're gonna get to see some GOOOD games.

'Saw

�At any rate, with the Mass Pike rivalry, 
    
    Shouldn't that be the I84/Mass Pike rivalry, or perhaps the I91/Mass
    Pike rivalry ;^)

Technically yes.

But, because about the only way to get to Boston from where I live
is I-84 to Mass Pike, everyone just says "Well, first, you get on
the Mass Pike..."

So, from force of habit, I just used that one.

To be specific, one would have to say I84/I90....8^)

It will be a fun series, nonetheless...

'Saw

    
    	Anybody else going to tonight's Broons- Whale game?

    Yeah, I'll be at the Lasting Room in Haverhill, about 4 bar stools back
    fron the wide-screen, tossing down a few cold ones......
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk

Well, I might as well have my helping of Crow this morning.

I heard the last period of the Bruins Whalers game on the radio.
From what I heard the Whale took it to them until it counted most.
Then they folded.

I don't care how good El Sid is, if you bang on the door long enough,
you're gonna get it sooner or later.  

That's my Whalers, when the going gets tough, stick one's haid up one's
anus and hope for the best.  Let the goalie try to stonewall the rest
of the other team...

Oh well, when a season series comes down to a goal, I guess I shouldn't
complain...

Chainsaw

BOSTON BRUINS HAVE CLINCHED FIRST PLACE IN THE ADAMS DIVISION AS WELL
AS THE BEST RECORD IN THE NHL FOR 1989-90.

YES I KNOW I' SHOUTING BUT I'M EXCITED DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scott

YES I KNOW WE ALL WANT THE CUP BUT SHEEEESH CAN'T I ENJOY THE MOMENT ;^)


I'M GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS ON SATURDAY 4/7, ANYONE ELSE?  I'LL BE HEADING
IN EARLY TO PREPARE IN ONE OF THE LOCAL ESTABLISHMENTS, THE MORE THE 
MERRIER.  BTW, IS IT AN AFTERNOON OR NIGHT GAME (I KNOW WHICH I'D PREFER).  


Scott

    
    
    congrats to the bruins... my whalers will definitely   give the
    
    bruins  all they can handle..
    
    
    
    Dinz
    

    	Your Whalers?  When did you buy the team Dinz?  8^)
    
    				/Don

    I'll be there Thursday, /Don.  
    
    Re: last night
    
    40 shots on goal for the B's, 22 for the Whale.  The Whale didn't take
    the play to anyone in last night's game.  Their shot breakdown went 
    8-7-7.  Someone tell Burt that the next time he chooses to spar with 
    Neely, don't pull a Carpenter and bury his head in his chest.
    
    					Steve

       Got some tickets /Don?
                                      Denny

    	Yeah but Steve, Burt did what most teams are going to try to
    do to Neely during the playoffs, get him off the ice.  Cam's got
    to control his temper, at least until the Bruins get a comfortable
    lead  8^).  I'll be there Thursday too Steve.  Section 86.
    
    				/Don

    Ya, Neely was lacking a bit of discipline last night.  I think our
    seats are in Section 101 (it's directly behind the goal, balcony).  
    Section 86, eh?  Good seats, right around the blue line aren't they?
    
    Is Moog going to get any playing time before the playoffs?  I would
    guess Lemelin will be in net Saturday, and Moog Sunday.
    
    					Steve

    I saw some highlights from the Bs/Whale game last night.  The Whalers
    goalie made some awesome saves - he needed to make 2 more, though.
    
    Well, here's hoping I can see some Bs hockey playoffs on our
    SportsChannel affiliate.  They'll probably only show the Devils games
    though.  I don't think they even carried the Stanley Cup finals last
    year.

    
    	I watched the Flyers/Caps game.  Peters had some INCREDULOUS
    saves!  Everyone was booing when he was introduced but when things
    started heating up it was GREAT!
    
    sean

Re Sidorkewicz...

El Sid made some great saves in the third, according to the radio 
call.

Analysts are starting to say that he might be the best one-on-one
goalie in hockey, the reason being is that he only comes out about
10 feet, and knows where his crease and the center of the net are.

I can't remember the last time I saw Sid get beat on a one-on-one.

If the Whalers had played some defense last night, then they might
have won the game.  From what I heard the Bruins only lead was the
last one...

Playoff predictions?  I've got to be realistic.  B's 4-2.

'Saw

    
    Good ole Pete "I choke in the playoffs" Peters. Alays has choked and
    always will. He did make some good saves last nite though, if the
    Flyers do make it, I'll bet he'll choke.
    
    Habs Beefalo series should be a bruiser of a series.
    
    -TH

   	Is Hextall ever going to return?   If they *do* make it to the
    'offs I definitely want the Hex back!!!!!!!!
    
    	So's they can CRUSH the Jellystone Rangers...  yabba dabba do... 

    
    Hextall has pulled a groin muscle for the third time this year, and
    from what I hear, he won't return this season. Paul Holmgren said
    something like ther is no way in hell that Hextall will play again this
    year.
    
    The general feeling around here in Philadelphia is that Hextall's
    problems are a result of his missing training camp, and never getting
    in shape.
    
    DenniS
    

	GoWhaLe es muy macho

		+  mucho awesometivit�

			A win and a tie for the weekend!

				I can live with that!

Mike JN

Well Folks, time for the NHL's real season to begin:


			Adams Division

		Boston harpoons Whalers in 6.
		Canadiens sheath Sabers in 6.

	GoWhale will battle Boston but if Neely stays out of the penalty box
and Janney comes back, Broons should prevail.  Montreal is playing good
hockey right now and has the edge in goaltending.  Should be tons of fights
in this series.


			Patrick Division

		Isles knock Rangers off Broadway in 7
		Devils possess the Caps in 5

	Just a feeling about the Islanders.  Stasny will lead Joisey
over the Capitals.


			Norris Divsion

		Blackhawks scalp North Stars in 5
		St. Louis makes the Maple Leafs sing the blues in 6

	Keenan's henchman will mug the North Stars out of the playoffs.
Without Iafrate, I'm afraid the Leafs will fall.


			Smythe Division

		Flames crown Kings in 4
		Oilers drill Jets in 6

	Without a healthy Great One the Kings are just a bunch of
mediocre millionaires.  The Jets are good, but the Oilers are better.


				/Don
              

    re /Don:
    
    WBZ reported this morning that Janney will likely not be back until
    Monday's Game 3.
    
    
    py     

Well, I posted my predictions in BOSTON_BRUINS and HOCKEY, but I may as well 
through it in here too....

Adams Division
--------------
Boston over Whalers in 5. B's want to win it at home, and the Whalers 
goaltending is too suspect to stand up to them.

Buffalo over Montreal in 7. Tough series, but Buffalo will take it to seven 
games, then win at the Aud. Chelios being out is the key factor.

Patrick Division
----------------
Rangers over NYI in 7. This would be easy win for the Rangers on paper, but 
the cross-town rivarly screws up everything. I'll still go with the NYR, but 
the loss of Leetch will hurt them and make it tough.

Caps over Devils in 6. With Stevens and Langway back now (they've been out a 
lot of the season), and the addition of Liut, the Caps look *very* strong 
going into the playoffs. Devils will be tough, but they don't stand a chance
against the tandem of Liut and Beaupre.

Norris Divsion
--------------
Blackhawks over Minnesota in 6. Chicago is having a good year, and the 
addition of Millen and Goulet make them look like Cup contenders this year.
Minnesota has a bunch of talent (Modano, Bellows, etc.), but needs another 
year to get it together.

St. Louis over Toronto. Iafrate getting injured and lack of goaltending will 
be the Leafs downfall. Hull should run amuck with the weak D.

Smythe Division
---------------
Calgary over LA in 4. LA doesn't stand a chance, Great One or no Great One 
(sorry Andy!).

Edmonton over Winnipeg in 5. Messier leads the Oilers to an easy series win. 
Winnipeg has a couple good players (Steen, Hawercheck), but its not enough for 
a team like Edmonton.


The rest? Well, I gotta pick the Bruins over Buffalo, Washington over the 
Rangers (the upset), Chicago over St. Louis, and Calgary over Edmonton (Fuhr 
being out is the death-knell). 

Next: Bruins over Washington
      Calgary over Chicago (although the Hawks could upset here!)

Final: Bruins over Calgary

Alan S.

    When do the playoffs actually start?  Was it last night?
    
    Ted.