Conference 7.286::sports_90

    
    MrT, do you have any ideas what the NL can do after their embarassing
    performance in the World Series?  I'll admit that losing 4-1 in '88 was
    slightly disheartening for the A's, but at least they didn't get
    swept!  You've gotta give credit to the best team in the best division-
    the Oakland A's sure made amends.
    
    Bruce  

    The Dodgers will be back on top in the West this year. With everyone
    looking healthy so far this off-season, I can't see how anyone can beat
    them. Look out A's!!! The Big-Blue_Wrecking-Crew is gonna be back. 
    
    the devil dog

ITEM:  Braves trade Gerald Perry to KC for Starter Charlie Leibrandt
and Reliever Rick Lueckens.

	So, the Braves get even MORE pitching for a batter. Clears up Esasky
situation, but still leaves them lacking in the OF, not to mention C and
3B. Must have a trade of some pitching for one or more of the holes in
the everday lineup, or they can see the same record as last year.
Luecken clouds up the Stanton/Boever picture. Leibrandt gets thrown
in the pot with about 10 other potetnial starters.

	This will have been a really weird move unless they deal further..

	Jim M

    anyone out there have Dennis Cook's stats from lasted year???
    
    JD

    Read in the International-Herald Tribune that the Braves traded
    a minor league pitcher to the Blue Jays for catcher Ernie Whitt
    and another pitcher.

    Just read in the Red Sox conference that according to SportsPhone, the
    Mets will be holding a news conference at 4:30 PM today to announce a
    major trade.  Anyone have a clue as to what might be up?
    
    
    py 

    Paul -
    
    Ralph had it right - the Mets sent Juan Samuel to the Dodgers for
    Mike Marshall and Alajandro (sp?) Pena.
    
    -- FooBear

METS DEAL SAMUEL TO DODGERS FOR MARSHALL, PENA
----------------------------------------------

The New York Mets today traded unhappy center fielder Juan 
Samuel to the Los Angeles Dodgers for outfielder Mike Marshall
and pitcher Alejandro Pena.

Samuel batted just .228 with three homers and 28 R-B-I after
being acquired from Philadelphia last June for pitcher Roger
McDowell and outfielder Len Dykstra.  Samuel, who turned 29
earlier this month, said he did not enjoy playing in New York
and had asked to be traded.  He batted .235 overall in 1989
with 11 homers, 48 R-B-I and 52 stolen bases.  Samuel is
expected to fill the Dodgers' need for a leadoff batter.

The 29-year-old Marshall, who has been bothered by a bad back 
throughout his career, batted .260 in 1989 with 11 homers and
42 R-B-I in 105 games. He hit .293 in 1985 with career highs
in homers (28) and R-B-I (95).

The 30-year-old Pena was 4-3 with a 2.15 earned run average 
and five saves in 53 appearances last season.  

Both Marshall and Pena made their major league debuts with 
the Dodgers in 1981.  

    	With all this pitching I don't think the Mets are done trading.
    
    				/Don

    I hear Dykstra is beign shopped around.  Sounds like that trade didn't
    work out to well for either team.

    The Dodgers signed Shelby yesterday... they have Randolph...
    Sounds like another trade coming here too?

    Excuse me for interupting, but what has happen to the atlanta_braves
    not conference. Does anybody know? 
    
    Thanks

    re .14
    
    I'm entering this for the now waivered Moderator of the defunct
    Atlanta_Braves notesfile.
    
    
    The Conference has been discontinued. Just like the Braves.
    
    Parade in October 2023
    
    Paul

Unfortunately, the conference got deleted without having the opportunity to
move to another location.  If anyone wants to house it, it will have to be
started from scratch.  It wasn't very active anyway so maybe an Atlanta Braves
note here will suffice.  I'll start one.

j.

    
    Dodgers sign Hubie Brooks to a 3yr 6.3 million dollar contract.
    
    Bull
    

Oh, my -- even Hubie can get $2.1 million from these crazy owners.....

-- dg

    Dodgers have a backlog everywhere. They have Daniels, Samuel, Gibson,
    and Samuel in the OF. If Samuel plays 2B they have a problem with
    Randolph.
    
    Samuel was quoted in the LA papers that he could very well do the free
    agent gig after 1990. 
    
    
    Of course that is assuming there will be baseball
    in 1990 - with the owners and players getting along so well (Heavy
    sarcasm) you never know.

    
    A's are supposed to be interested in Randolph to fill the 2b/utility
    infielder role.  They are also talking about Tommy Herr.
    
    Bruce 
    
    

    Yoseff, I'm not so sure that there's really a backlog in LA...For one,
    no one really knows whether Gibson is going to be able to play
    regularly...Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Dodgers try Brooks
    at 3rd...Hamilton certainly isn't the answer...Unless they don't want
    Samuel playing in the OF...
    
    
    -Mike

    
    The Dodgers will be the first to field a team using nothing other than
    left fielders and second basemen.
    
    - snopes
    

           <<< Note 3.0 by CSC32::J_WARDLE "Member: Namath_Jihad" >>>
                      -< Official National League topic >-

    This topic is for the discussion of Baseball's National League

	Someone a few days ago was asking what the issues were regarding the
baseball strike which looks imminent. I was kind of swamped that day, but if it
hasn't been answered, here are some of the issues:

	The union says the owners will be receiving revenues in 1990 in excess
of 1.3 billion, and the union wants its piece of the action.

	The owners say they are paying out 48% of all monies received in
salaries and benfits. This is not counting all the other overhead which goes
into maintaining a baseball team.

	The owners want the players to eliminate salary arbitration, put some
restrictions on free agency, and impose salary caps.

	The players want to go back to a 25 man roster, boost the minimum
salary from $68,500 to $100,000, restore salary arbitration eligibility to two
years, increase their benefits, and provide collusion protection (I'm not  sure
what the hell they mean by this, I know what it means, but I'm not sure what
they mean by saying they want protection in this matter).

	The way things are looking, if the players don't walk, the owners will
probably lock them out.

	I know there's probably legitimate complaints on both sides, but I
always seem to have difficulty generating sympathy for people who are being
paid $100,000 - $3,000,000 a year to play a game for PART of the year.

Mike JN

For all the NL supremists out there, USA Today had an interesting little
graph yesterday re: the AVE OF distances in the MLs:

	Left	left-center	center	right-center	right
	----	-----------	------	------------	-----
NL	333	375		404	375		333	symetrical ?
AL	327	380		406	379		322
	---	---		---	---		---
NL-AL	+6	-5		-2	-4		+11


Realistically, we're talking NO DIFFERENCE over-all.  But specifically,
the NL parks are longer down the lines, but shorter in the middle.

So much for the "smallness" of the AL parks.


Joe

    The new Topps Dan Schneider baseball card is here!  The new Topps 
    Dan Schneider baseball card is here!  Now Dan is somebody!  :-)
    
    Oh, you mean he's not "our" Dan Schneider?
    
    Nevermind.
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk

    You mean Dan isn't that old?

I thought Dan was so old he was the waiter at the Last Supper....

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!���  Remember the waiter at the Grotto, Dan?!

    	Frankie Viola pitched a shutout yesterday.  I wonder if that
    butcher is still giving out free sausages whenever Frankie blanks
    a team?
    
    				/Don

    Mine just came....
    
    Anyone notice how ugly Schneider is in that picture, nice crew-cut.
    What do you think the card's worth?????
    
    Cap :-)

Probably about 35� until his new book comes out:

	"Jesus, As I Knew Him", by Dan Schneider, Waiter at the Last Supper.

hTH,
'saw

Are you guys telling me there's another Dan Schneider Major 
Leaguer?? Hmmm, that makes the second one who's trying to
horn in on my fame.  There was a Dan Schneider, Houston
Astros' reliever in the late-'60s.

Dan, the original

�Dan, the original

So, Dan...now the troof finally comes out.  This *clearly* explains
your flaws.  Originals more than likely are flawed, which is why
new editions keep coming out.

Thank you for enlightening us. 8^)

Chainsaw

OK, I get it now.  If someone is sending these cards out to
many of our SPORTS noters, they must be spending untold
hundreds of Dollars.  I am truly honered by such ceremony.
It befits an experienced contest winner such as myself.

Dan, the original masterpiece

Well, Dan (serial number 0000001), I'm glad to see you have ammended
your appellation so adroitly afixed to you name.

Clearly, the true intent of your meaning has now been devined...

Chainsaw_the_lowly_irregular

     Re "Dan, the original masterpiece"
    
    And all the time I thought you were "Dan, the original mastur-----,
    awww, you know what I mean!!11  :*)
    
    Lee

    And 'Saw, I resent your "low Lee irregular"  I ain't that short,
    and I was Regular Navy!
    
    Lee
    

    I guees that was before the era of saves came in, eh?
    
    Arizona Athlete of the Year - Mike Heiser, how could you live there?
    
    ;-0
    
    JD

>      <<< Note 3.39 by HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Arizona Athete of the Year!" >>>
    
    Dan, what's an "Athete" and what do you have to do with Arizona?

    So Dan, you was a waiter at the Last Supper ???
    
    tell me,
    
    
    
    
    How did you like the tip that I left ?
    
    :-) :-)
    
    Doc

    Doc, what was your tip?  Deny Christ 3 times?
    
    Mike

    You were Judas, right Dock. He was the first of the 'wagon jumpers ya
    know!
                                      Denny  ;^)

       Dang Hawk!
    

    Dang Mike!
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHA Denny!
    
    :-)

    Hawk, Denny,
    
    Isn't this great?!  We don't even have to try, Doc sets himself up!
    
    Mike

       Just like hitin' a change-up when ya know it's coming, eh Mike?
                                         Denny 

    Like one of George Foreman's comeback opponents- they lead with their
    face!  :-)
    
    H�wk

JudasVane...that's great!  I love it.

You guys've got me rollward today.  I'll tell ya.  After the Gang Green
debacle lasted night, I need it...

Tonight, I'll save a few Sam Adams Double Bocks and listen to
some Hendrix....(yeah!!!)

'Saw

    Methinks that we're moving close to thin ice .....
    
    Not to mention a reach .....
    
    But do expect anything less from the hard-up Jihad ?
    
    Nah ....

Huh?

    How'd ya know it was me?  Found it in my old card collection - one
    of those cards of players no one ever heard of....
    
    Hey T - get yours' yet??? ;-)
    
    JD

>      <<< Note 3.59 by HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Arizona Athlete of the Year!" >>>
>                           -< ...and proud of it!! >-
    
    Everyone in Arizona must've been out of state that year!

    JD, where's mine?  Or should I just substitute Jeff Reardon?
    
    Mark.

    MaRk,
    
    I sent you one, but perhaps I wrote your name in the wrong
    pronunciation, and someone else got it!  ;-)
    
    I'd imagine you should get it soon.  If not, let me know and I'll
    send another out nexted week.  ANy other notes who would like a
    genuine copy of Dan Schneider's baseball card - send me mail or
    reply here.  Wat a keepsake.
    
    So T and Spud - did the card make it to Minnesota????
    
    (Also Mark, are you still in Tewksbury?)
    
    JD
    

    APO1-2/C15 (Bendover, MA)
    
    Mark.

I would like to Congratulate Dan on his stellar career wif
de Astros.

Clearly, he will forever hold the post of Most Mediocre of the Mediocre.

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it....

Congrats, Dan, no flies on you....

Chainsaw

Hey Dan, 

You've been sooo many places.

Can you tell me what it was like in Atlanta and Richmond in 1966?
How bout Louisville in 1962?

Enlighten us!
'saw

PS  How does it feel to have a lifetime ERA of greater than 4?  Are you
    in the HoF?

    And Dan, how was Oklahoma City in the Spring of 1969 - were there
    flowers in teh air?  Free love (wif bovines, of course!)?
    
    JD

Dan, I have a question:

	Your card says you were "Strictly a relief specialist".

	Now, why doesn't it say "Clearly, a relief specialist".
	
	Also, does this mean that you were sponsored by Ex-Lax?


Thank you in advance,
Chainsaw

    And boy do the cards lie! 6'3"??? No way 170 lbs???? Hah!
    
    He was undefeated in 1963 !!!
    JD

Dan,

I have carefully examined your card under our special laser digitizing
and enhancing system here at BMF, and I have to ask you something.

Your likeness on the card, clearly, shows signs of steriod abuse.
Were you using the juice to improve your athletic performance?
If so, are you experiencing any side-affects(tm) all these years
later?

Finally, do you particularly and *clearly* remember any one of
your 83 K's as special?


Chainsaw

    > He was undefeated in 1963 !!!
    
    '64 too!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

	"Onan" Dan Schneider....clearly a relief specialist and
	contest winner....

	Truly a Renaissance Man...

    Dan,
    
    The only time I've seen an uglier picture on a baseball card was
    when George Foster was in his hey-day.  But you do give him a run
    for his money. :-)
    
    Cap

    
    I think Yogi Berra still holds the record for "Most Ugly Baseball
    Cards - Career."
    
    -Dick
    
    p.s.  And Jose Santiago (Sox '67) bore an amazing resemblance to
          the old Pineapple Head, Gen. Noriega.  I mean this guy had
          a face that looked like a bag full of melted carmels.
    
    

that's because as a kid he had to teach himself to eat with a fork....

    	Josi Santigio hitted a homerunn of Bob Gibson Dick!  Did Maneul
    Noreega evr do that???  Did he evr playe in a World Sereis?  Huh?
    
    				/Donn

< Note 3.80 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Dusting...It's not sujt a bojo" >

    Attention Please!  Attention Please!  There will be a Dan Schneider
    autograph session Tuesday, April 24.  You can bring your Dan Schneider
    baseball cards in for Dan to sign personally.  Originally, this great
    event was to be held in the Boston Garden, but security was worried
    about the throngs of card-toting fans the legendary Arizona Athlete of
    the Year would bring in, so it was switched to the Hines Auditorium.
    
    Come early so you can receive special tips about how to be a relief
    specialist!
    
    Dan, the original masterpiece

    Free autographs.  Sports noters are strongly encouraged to bring me a
    beer, and in return, I also sign my middle name.
    
    Dan, original masterpiece with really cool signature

    Do  you guys always waste computers, networks and time like this
    or are you jsut going through menopause?
    
    TE

    
       Do you always waste computers, networks and time responding
    to notes like this with replies like your's?
    
    Bull~
    

re .-2:

	CRAP...  Is that like in the steaming loaf of feces mode
	or are we talking what's on the dinner table?

Deen to wonk(tm)    

    	HNN this morning is reporting that Pete Rose is plea bargaining
    with the IRS.  Could face a jail sentence but I highly doubt it.
    
    				/Don

    He's pleading guilty on tax evasion (memorabilia, autographs, etc).
    He could face up to 6 years in jail.
    
    The plea bargain will prevent the gummint from pressing more serious
    felony tax charges.
    
    Mark.

He picked a good time to do this.

Much as I hate the IRS for the inefficient, theivin' revnoors that
they are, wif all this attention on Rose, they won't look twice
at my return!!!!

'Saw

    The S.F. Giants Kevin Mitchell hit his 7th homer last night and	
    the Giants lost the game 4-1 to the Mets. That was there third straight
    loss. They have the worst record in the league. Thats pretty sad for
    a team that went to the World Series last year. They better start
    thinking about trading a player for young pitcher's.
    
    HUMM-BABY
    
                                                       WILL THE THRILL
    

    It's official, the Mets just fired Davey Johnson as manager.
    
    As a fan, I'm happier than a pig in poop.  I've been lobbying for
    Davey to be canned since 1986.  He's good with youngsters, but
    horrible when they get seasoned.  He hasn't been able to motivate
    anybody on the team for a a few years now.  Good bye Davey, and
    good riddance.
    
    The Mets also announced that ex-met and current coach Bud Harrelson
    would take over the managerial duties...
    
    JD

    Hi Ted,
    
    Esasky has been on the disabled list with back spasms and vertigo since
    the first week of May.  Don't know when he's expected back.
    
    
    py

    oh, i though he was at night
    
    dinz
    

    	Even I can't decode that one Dins...
    
    				/Don

    nick at night.. get it?
    

    	Got it.  I read where Oil Can had to leave the game he was pitching
    in the other night because of an injury.  To bad.  Is it serious?
    
    				/Don

    re /Don,
    
    I read in the BASEBALL conference this morning that Boyd is expected to
    miss one start.
    
    
    py

    	Thanks Paul.  Glad to hear it's not his shoulder.
    
    				/Don

    /Don,
    
    Boyd pulled a muscle in his hip when he was batting. (BTW Boyd and Rich
    Gedman have the same number of base hits this year, one.)
    
    py

Can anyone tell me why the umps changed the call the other day in
the Cubs game?

They were playing someone (I forget who -- too many drugs) and anyway
one of the Cubs dings a homer.  The umps call it fair.  Then the
opposing manager (who's name, like his team escapes me, but will come
back as soon as one of you folks tell me who it is, I'm sure) comes
running out of the dugout and p*sses and moans bloody murder.  So
the umps change their call (CLEMSON umps perhaps?) and next thing
you know the Gerbil is out and screaming so bad that I thought that
plate was gonna pop right outta his haid...

He got tossed, another coach got tossed, but the Cubs won...
Anyone know why the call was *changed*????

'Saw

    
    	It was against the San Fran Giants.. Roger Craig is
    	the manager for SF. Then when the ump reversed the call, Zimmer
    	went crazy. Cubs won anyway but you don't see ump's reversing
    	calls often. 
    
    		Dave

Gee, it just came to me... 

The team they were playing was the Giants, and their manager
is Roger Craig...  Gee I knew it would come to me.....

;^) ;^) ;^)


(thanks dude)

    
    We knew you knew that.  You think that we thought you didn't know
    that?  We knew you knew that.
    

    
    Take a good look at yourself.  When was the last time you took a good
    look at yourself?  Take a good look at yourself.

I did.  You know I did.  I know you know I did.  You know I know you know
I did.  I know that you know that I know that you know I did.
You know that I know that you know that I know that you know I did...

Help my id.

'Saw

   Hello! Anybody Home?
   Giants are boogers. Gerbils rool!!!
   Flip up your zy (or is that zip up your fly?) and ack like a mon

   Phoe shit shlep
   Mike JN

    Geez, I hate to break in here, but can anyone answer Saw's question,
    WHY the call was reversed?
    
    And now, back to our normally scheduled looney-tunes.  :*)
    
    Lee

    	Can the crew chief and/or home plate umpire overrule another
    umpire?
    
    				/Don

I'll be in San Diego Nexted week and I'm thinking about catching a Padre's game
Can anybody tell me if they will be at home ?

    The way I understand it, one umpire signalled Home Run and the other
    Umps were in agreement that the ball was foul, therefore, reversal.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    	The dinger being fair was in question by the announcers, the Giants
    	3rd baseman (Williams), the other umps, and Ryne Sandberg who hit
    	the *foul ball*.  Sandberg watched it fly and started heading back
    	to the batter's box.  When the 3rd base ump called it fair, Ryne
    	immediately threw down his bat and rounded the bases and went to
    	the dugout (as he should).  Craig came out and argued the call.
    	The other umps gathered around the one who made the call and they
    	had a meeting of the minds.  It was then ruled a foul ball.   The
    	ump who made the call is fairly young (not that this matters).  It
    	appeared the crew chief persuaded him to change his mind.  The
    	Gerbil went berserk (as he should).
    
    	Judging from the reactions of everyone (except the 3rd base ump)
    	the ball was foul.  It was tough to tell on the replay whether
    	it was fair or foul.  Zim was justified in being upset but *I*
    	think the right call was made.
    
    	I don't think I answered FrankWa's question!  I'll take a stab.
    	I would bet that the crew chief can strongly urge a call to be
    	changed but it is very rare and the ump in question must be
    	willing to change it.  Schlepped?
    
    Claybone

    	So umpiring is actually a democratic endeavor.  Majority rules.
    
    				/Don

    My understanding has always been that one umpire can only overrule
    another umpire if asked.  For example, on the check swing strike,
    the base umpire (who often has a better view than the plate umpire)
    will only make the call if the plate umpire asks him to.  I could
    be wrong though.
    
    San Diego is home 5/31-6/3 vs Atlanta, 6/4-6/6 vs Houston, is off
    6/7 and is home 6/8 - 6/10 vs Los Angeles.  Does that cover your
    days out there?
    
    John

    I heard that the angle on ESPN clearly showed that the ball was fair. 
    Zimmer went apeshit because it was the agreement of the 2nd and 1st
    base umps that made the decision, and if you think about it, what kind
    of angle do they have on the left field line?
    
    Dan

    < Note 3.112 by RSST6::RIGGEN "Burley from biking" >
                         -< If I ever leave the BEACH >-

>I'll be in San Diego Nexted week and I'm thinking about catching a Padre's game
>Can anybody tell me if they will be at home ?

    Jeff, I don't know about Murphy Stadium, but you gotta check out
    Foggy's Notion.  And buy one of the "And How's Your Bush" (Anheiser
    Busch) t-shirts.
    
    Mark.

�    My understanding has always been that one umpire can only overrule
�    another umpire if asked.  For example, on the check swing strike,
�    the base umpire (who often has a better view than the plate umpire)
�    will only make the call if the plate umpire asks him to.  I could
�    be wrong though.

   Michaelangelo'

   It s'eem's like it is' often the batter who point's to the 1s't or 3rd
   ba'se umpire's for a ruling they di'sagree with????

   Struggling Apo'strophe Polee's cadet
   Mike JN

Leonardo.

Actually, Mike, what they are doing is asking the home plate ump
to check.  Most times the catcher will do this, or the batter if
he feels he didn't go around.

I believe the crew chief can overrule if he is asked.

Zim did the right thing by arguing and getting tossed.  I think that
probably inspired the team to win the game.  Least ways I think that's
the general idea behind going apeshit on a call like that...

FrankWa

    Geez, I saw the ESPN replays (ESPN was broadcasting the game) and
    ya just couldn't tell.  Maybe they showed another angle after the
    game was over?  The 1B ump probably would have a fairly good view
    taking into account the ball was hooking wicked bad.
    
    Clay_an_unbiased_Reds_fan   ;^)

    
    re .122
    
    Tommy Lasorda lost another pound guzzling Ultra Slim Fast(tm), and
    it rained in Bumfuq, Egypt yesterday.  Clearly, this proves that
    the National League is better than the 'Merican League.
    

    That sequence during the Reds/Dodgers game last night with Charlton
    was unreal.  For those of you that missed it, picture the following
    scenario:
    
    - Reds trail 4-2 and then bust the game wide open against Fernando
      with a mega-run inning.
    
    - Reds "Nasty Boy" Charlton (relieving Rick Mahler) gets hit with
      a slider on the leg.  He didn't even try to get outa the way,
      but it obviously hurt like h*ll and he made it known he was POed.
    
    - Reds catcher Joe Olver drills a 2-bagger down the LF line.  One
      run scores, 3rd base coach frantically signals for Charlton to
      stop at 3rd.  Uh-uh, says Norm.
    
    - Charlton dead-eyes Dodgers catcher.  Ball arrives at approximately
      the same time as POed pitcher.  POed pitcher *LEVELS* helpless 
      catcher, ball popping loose.  (Safe!)
    
    Give this was the Reds/Dodgers I figured a bench-clearing brawl was
    in the cards.  The only reason I think it *didn't* happen was that the 
    Dodgers were so shocked at the sequence of events.  I certainly was!
    Watch out next time around though ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    re: .122
    
    Bad data... Stewart said OTHER THAN Kittle, Fisk and Calderon,
    none of the other white sox could carry his jock.

    Mr. T has given us bad data ???
    
    I am shocked, I tell you, shocked.
    
    What is this world coming to ???
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    P.S.  I agree with him on the NL superiority over the AL, though.

    re .125
    
    Oh.  Sorry, Groaner.  Guess I misunderstood Dave's speech what with
    the high pitched squeaking and all.
    
    In light of Dave's admitted homosexuality, what do you suppose he
    meant by implying that Pudge, Ron, and Ivan could "carry his jock?"
    
    re 1
    
    Nyah shaddap.  The minor error was the direct result of Stewart's 
    hormonal imbalance and anyway was only tangential to the point being
    made.  Don't cast stones, Human Hunt, for it was *you* who got caught
    red handed fudging statistics in our little tourney strength analysis
    awhile back.
    
    Big11 Tom 

   >> Nyah shaddap.  The minor error was the direct result of Stewart's 
   >> hormonal imbalance and anyway was only tangential to the point being
   >> made.  Don't cast stones, Human Hunt, for it was *you* who got caught
   >> red handed fudging statistics in our little tourney strength analysis
   >> awhile back.
    
    Relax, T-ster.  Cain't you take a semi-friendly josh or two now and
    then ???   I wouldn't want you to take another powder on us.
    
    And I fudged no statistics of any sort, my man.  Never have, never
    will.  I don't even recall what the hail you're babbling about anyway.
    
    And if you noticed at all, I'm on your side of the "NL is better"
    debate so don't go shooting the guys wearing the same colored jerseys,
    will ya ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    >I fudged no statistics... Never have.  Never will.
    
    Falsehood!  
    
    You ground out some number about percent of conference teams in 
    the Sweet 16, conveniently "forgetting" that the Minnesota Golden
    Gophers were at that very moment flying down to Virginia to play
    in the regional semifinals (where they lost a nailbiter to Duke).
    
    >same jerseys
    
    Objectivity forces me to trim my sails to the benign winds only,
    no matter how much I wanna gang up.  Btw, you must certainly be happy
    with Nails.  Check it out: The Mets have two good players at center,
    both unhappy.  They ship on to Toronto where he's doing well.  They
    ship the other to the Phillies, where he's tearing the league up now
    that he's finally able to play everyday.  Worst of all, the Phillies
    unload their Mr. Overrated - Juan Samuel - on the unwitting Mets in the
    process.  Even this guy, after batting .230 or whatever on top of all
    the errors, isn't happy in the Mets' center field.  So then *he* 
    forces a deal and the Mets end up with a total stiff!  
    
    So, the Mets go from 1 CF with great potential and 1 CF who's
    a_excellent role player to 1 injury prone stiff.  Go figure.
    
    MrT

   >> You ground out some number about percent of conference teams in 
   >> the Sweet 16, conveniently "forgetting" that the Minnesota Golden
   >> Gophers were at that very moment flying down to Virginia to play
   >> in the regional semifinals (where they lost a nailbiter to Duke).
    
    That was the 1989 NCAA tournament, over a full year ago.   I
    immediately retracted the *honest* mistake and retallied all the
    numbers.  And the mistake didn't make a difference in the final result
    anyway.
    
    Oh, and your geography slip is showing again, T.   The 1989 NCAA East
    Region was not played in Virginia.  It was played, like all Duke
    regional wins, in the East Rutherford Meadowlands "deep in the swamps
    of Jersey".   First you think New Orleans is Norfolk and now East
    Rutherford is also in the Old Dominion according to your maps.  What is
    this fixation of yours on the state with the "Bonny Blue Flag".
    
    Oh, and Lenny Dykstra is God.   Let's consider the poor ol' Metros
    these days.  They got squat for Dykstra and McDowell, even less for
    Kevin Mitchell.  Keith is gone, Carter is gone.  Daryll wants out and
    so does McReynolds.   HoJo is one-dimensional, Doc is inconsistent,
    Kevin Elster might as well just mail in his at-bats, and Darling's in
    the bullpen.
    
    Gotta love those Mets.  Underachievers par excellence.  Frank Cashen
    for MLB Executive Of The Year.  No other GM has made so many teams look
    so good.  Too bad they weren't his own club.
    
    Bob Hunt

    You mean to tail me that a Regional Final was actually NOT played
    in North Carolina?  Whoa.  No *wonder* ol' Reverend Underachievement
    has been sagging even more than usual of late.
    
    re: mistake
    
    So let me make sure I've got this straight: It's ok for you to make
    honest mistakes and retract them; but it's not ok for me to the same.
    Sorta like, "I'm ok you're not ok," huh?  A little TV evangelist-style
    hypocrisy from Bob Hunt, perhaps?
    
    Btw, Frank Cashen has dished out his share of screwings, it's just that
    his luck has turned on him is all.  That and the fack that he let the
    New Yawk media influence his decisions.  He shoulda shipped Mookie out
    asap.  He shoulda told fired Dave 2 years ago.  Then Davey wouldn't've
    let Doc stay in to pitch to Sciosia, and then they woulda won 2 Series
    instead a just the one.  He shoulda...  woulda... coulda...
    
    Big12 Tom                                                  

    >> You mean to tail me that a Regional Final was actually NOT played in
    >> North Carolina?  Whoa.  No *wonder* ol' Reverend Underachievement has
    >> been sagging even more than usual of late.
    
    Oh, but his losses are so sublimely excellent, aren't they ???
    
    >> So let me make sure I've got this straight: It's ok for you to make
    >> honest mistakes and retract them; but it's not ok for me to the same.
    >> Sorta like, "I'm ok you're not ok," huh?  A little TV evangelist-style
    >> hypocrisy from Bob Hunt, perhaps?
    
    Drop it, T.  I've already told you once that I was teasing you.  If you
    can't stand the heat, then delete all your notes again and take another
    powder.   If you want to feel superior because you remembered some
    obscure faux pas I made over a year ago, fine.   I'll just keep on
    reminding you not to open up your own travel agency.  Because
    eventually all your customers would wind up lost in Virginia somewhere.
    
    Chill, baby ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    >Oh, but his losses are so sublimely excellent, aren't they ???
    
    Yes they are.  So excellent that I was embarrassed by him once.  
    Don't know if you remember the Regional Semi against Michael Jordan
    & Co. or not, but a slow-footed 6-4 white guy named Dan Dakich 
    checked him and SHUT HIM DOWN.  Now, this was cuz of Bob's excellent
    system and genius level game coaching.  Wail, anyway, I was watching
    the game with a group of Big10 men, and as the clock wound down my
    pleasure was *so* sublime that a_episode of uncontrolled
    thigh-shuddering overtook my very being.  911 was dialed, and as the
    celebration started I was carried on a litter out to the MediVac,
    cursing Dean Smif' for his wretched coaching and what it had done to
    me!
    
    MrT

    T, you oughta know better than to recount the 1984 East Regional for
    me of all people
    
    My thighs were fairly quivering during that UNC-IU game as well.
    
    But two days later, they were virtually apoplectic.  Surely you
    remember *that* game, T  That was the one where the Indiana Hoosiers
    were were still tasting and savoring their once-in-a-lifetime
    devastating upset over the Jordan-aires of UNC from two nights before.
    
    But the Hoosiers on Saturday didn't play like the Hoosiers of Thursday
    night, did they ???   No, they were spanked most insultingly by a group
    in Orange and Blue if I do recall.  And I do, I do.  Yes, I most
    certainly do.
    
    50-48.  Kenton Edelin stole the ball from your Jordan breaker, Mr.
    Dakich.  And Othell Wilson tied the Hoosier guards up in knots.
    
    Surely one of Sir Terry's most sublime moments.  And one of The
    General's most anti-climatic.   You were probably hosing down your
    thighs for weeks still to "come".
    
    Bob Hunt

       <<< Note 3.135 by MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY "Big10: For Members Only" >>>
                      -< hot hand + bad day = pure luck >-


 Unbelievable Bob, you left him speechless.... ;^)

 mike    

    Ain't speechless.  Jest when it cain be succintly summed up that's
    what I tend to do.  He knows it's true.  I ain't a sore loser, but
    let's face tha fack that poor Bob's minions were physically and 
    emotionally exhausted from pulling off the Greatest Upset of All-Time
    against the "best college basketball team ever."
    
    MrT

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

>                 -< weren't this note about baseball ONCE???? >-

	try ASABET::BASEBALL...

	

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

>                             -< picky picky picky >-

	Jake,

	I wasn't trying to be picky.  I was just pointing out that there is
a conference out there dedicated to Baseball.  If you want to read/discuss
baseball without the various tangents that you find here then try 
ASABET::BASEBALL.   

Mc

    Mc
    
    I was just pulling chains.  Not really serious.
    
    
    JaKe
    

Lenny Dykstra getting $3M/yr ???  You've got to be kidding !
Talk about cashing-in on recent success.  If the Phils give him
this kinda money, then ML baseball is totally outta control,
and the owners can't cry about escalating salaries, or non-superstars
making millions.


Joe

       According to AP News Pete Rose has been sentenced to 5 months in the
    can. He must also spent 3 months in a half-way house when his sentence
    is done, and 1000 hrs of community service with inner-city youths.
                                             Denny

�    is done, and 1000 hrs of community service with inner-city youths.


Hell, ol Pete'll probably start his own numbers racket 8^)


Seriously, I wonder if I'd have been brought up on Tax Evasion
charges if I'd 've gotten only 5 months.  I mean, hell, I'd probably
get 5 years, in a prison cell with a large humanoid named Bubba
who loves to drop the soap in the shower....

Oh well,
'saw

    
    I heard he got 1,000 months in the can, 5 hours with inner-city
    youths, and 3 minutes of half-way community service.
    
    The community service will be performed with Zsa-Zsa, as the gambler
    and the slut take to the road giving lectures and selling snake
    oil in a tent by the river, and preaching the evils of gambling
    and cop-slapping.
    
    Dickster
    

 Quote of the day stolen from USA today>:

 "Maybe we can get him for the playoffs"....

   Rob Auerbach, and inmate at the federal correctional institution at
   Ashland KY., where Rose is supposed to go to serve his time....

mike

    Did anyone else see the brawl that broke out last night during the
    Mets/Phillies game?   Seven players ejected.....even the ump got
    involved!

    In the NL you have fights; in the ALmost League ya got guys scratching
    their chimichanga and picking their noses and yawning wondering when
    this game is gonna end and whether Lolita is gonna show up at the
    Marriott lounge later that night.
    
    Why the difference?
    
    Simple: Cuz the pitcher bats in real baseball.  This is called a
    feedback loop.  A check that keeps the balance.  It's the Natural Order
    kept in place.  It's the food chain instead of the gold chain.  Total
    athlete victorious over the grey flannel specialist with no heart.
    
    Baseball is a game that cain use all the emotion it cain muster. 
    Tension flows from concern which in turn flows from pressure which in 
    turn flows from no easy way out.  
    
    Not only has the regrettable cross-eyed sloped-brow thick-skulled 
    hare-brained stooped-posture waddle-footed dumb-bunny Desgignated Geek
    robbed baseball of its interest; its robbed it of its heart as well.
    
    MrT

   �    Not only has the regrettable cross-eyed sloped-brow thick-skulled 
   �    hare-brained stooped-posture waddle-footed dumb-bunny Desgignated Geek
   �    robbed baseball of its interest; its robbed it of its heart as well.

   `N thass the troof!

   Even if the pitcher is a poor hitter (usually the case, but shouldn't
   be), it adds excitement to have him hit. Also, the manager has the
   option of removing him from the game to have someone pinch hit... so
   you have situations in the Major League where the dilemma involves
   removing a hot pitcher, or facing a probable out. In the American
   League it's `sure greaseball... we'll have somebody hit for ya...
   wouldn't want ya gettin a blister, or gettin outta breath runnin roun
   dem bases'.

   W I M P S !!

   Mike `puttin the game under a mikerscope' JN

>================================================================================
>Note 3.151               Official National League topic               151 of 151
>MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY "Congrat's, Marion"              21 lines  15-AUG-1990 08:51
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    In the NL you have fights; in the ALmost League ya got guys scratching
>    their chimichanga and picking their noses and yawning wondering when
>    this game is gonna end and whether Lolita is gonna show up at the
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    Marriott lounge later that night.
    
    Tom, you keep bringing this Lolita thing up in regard to a certain AL
    pitcher (actually you seem to have developed such a fetish about it
    that it causes one to wonder...) but keep forgetting to mention the
    fact that the pitching hero for your favortite team, Doc Gooden, has
    also been caught in a case of mister/miss-taken identity.  I'm sure
    that someone like you, who prides himself on the accuracy and
    completeness of remarks will refrain from making it look like this has
    only happened to AL pitchers.
    
    Bruce

    re: .151  
    
    Another momentary victory for style over substance.
    
    "In the NL you have fights..."
    
    "Checks and balances..."
    
    One of the basic tenets of the anti-DH propoganda is that in the NL
    fights are avoided (like the "old" days) because of the check of having
    the pitcher hit.  In reality, the issue of pitching inside has changed
    since the old days, NOT because of the DH, and plunking batters and a
    little chin music turns out fights in both leagues, and the check of
    the pitcher batting is almost negligible.
    
    So now, when there is one of those "mistakes", i.e. one of those AL
    fights that the anti-DHers once pointed to  in order to further
    criticize the DH, but instead it occurs in the blessed NL, MorT twists
    his famous T-illogic over to this new issue and hails it as a victory.
    
    There once was a time when the pitcher hitting did form a check of a
    sort, and this represented one of the 2 substantive issues which DH
    critics could use.  That time has passed though, as the issue of inside
    pitching has transcended and other checks have formed.  And yes, the
    fights occur in both leagues.
    
    So MorT, not only is your logic bad, but your timing is lousy, and your
    historical context lacking.
    
    Dan

I think the reference to "scratching one's chimichanga" could be
disparaging to those who like mexican food.

With the plethora of food types out there, why was chimichanga singled
out.  Why couldn't the term "moo goo gai pan" or "pasta fazool" or
"peirogie" have been used?

I think the proper term to be used would be  "scratching one's
non-ethnic-multi-generic-entree"

HTH,
'Saw

    >basic tenet of anti-DH propoganda [sic]
    
    Since when?  The basic tenet of pro-baseball theory is perhaps 
    best encapsulated in glenn's note stomping you to dust on the
    substance of how it guts the game - and involves fighting not at
    all.
    
    Face it: There are a lot more fights in the NL, they involve
    something important to the game: how a batter is pitched, and 
    they take place cuz NL players care a lot more about what's going
    on in the field.
    
    Fact this too: You obfuscate and skirt cuz you got stomped twice
    on the nuts and bolts issues of the DG and are fearful about ever
    entering into any substantive intercourse on that complex subject
    again.
    
    >Lolita
    
    How does this relate to Dave Stewart's inveterate homosexuality?
    Did *I* mention his homosexuality?  *NooOOOooOOOoo* !!  YOU brought
    Dave Stewart's homosexuality up, not me.  As far as *I* am concerned,
    if Dave wants to have sex with men that's strictly his business, and
    he's shouldn't be discriminated against in the least for being a 
    practicing homosexual.  Homosexuals have rights too, you know.
    
    The only way I cain see Dave Stewart's homosexuality entering into
    this note is that it could be theorized that by having sex with men
    dressed up as women he's acknowledging, screaming out from inside,
    really, that he has sold himself to a perversion of our manly Nation's
    Pasttime that's gussied up in effeminate garb.

    
    Tom,
    
    I never mentioned Dave Stewart.  I just mentioned that Doc Gooden had sex
    with a man, twice, as a matter of fact.  Didn't bother me though, since
    I'm a valuing differences kind of guy.  Of course, I'm sure your
    mid-Western set of values were all messed up by the incident, so messed
    up by it that you can't even admit that it happened.
    
    Bruce 
    
    

    
    Thanks 'Saw, for both the laugh and the valuable information.  Without
    the plethora of info you provide, many of us would go through life
    never knowing what a chimichanga was, and being too afraid to ask.
    
    Dickster
    

    >Since when?  The basic tenet of pro-baseball theory is perhaps 
    >best encapsulated in glenn's note stomping you to dust on the
    >substance of how it guts the game - and involves fighting not at
    >all.
    
    It's abundantly obvious that you didn't understand my issues or Glenn's
    response to them.
    
    >Face it: There are a lot more fights in the NL, they involve
    >something important to the game: how a batter is pitched, and 
    >they take place cuz NL players care a lot more about what's going
    >on in the field.
 
    The typical MorT response to substance coming back and kicking his
    style's ass all over notes.  Make something up.  Such as:
    
    "a lot more fights in the NL"......document it!
    
    "NL players care a lot more".......document it!
    
    Next will come some phony (but stylistic) excuse as to why he doesn't
    have to document these things, but the real reason is because he just
    made 'em up.

    >It's abundantly obvious that...
    
    You've made a career out of side stepping subjects simply by 
    stating how "obvious" something is or how "typical" something
    is of another (not just me, you've used this ruse on dozens of
    people.
    
    >"Document it!"
    >
    >"Document it!"  
    
    Yeah, *right*.  Btw, I'm still waiting for you to "document" this
    famous pre-1973 business lag of yours.  Haw haw haw...
    
    Dan Schneider, the argumentative sould too skeert to argue.  Haw haw
    haw...
    
    MrT

    >You've made a career out of side stepping subjects simply by 
    >stating how "obvious" something is or how "typical" something...
    
    Gee, why are you writing a note about me, instead of about the note
    topic (The National League)?  Weren't you just accusing someone of that
    in another note, and now you're here practicing the same evil deeds? 
    (Yes.)
    
    >>"Document it!"  
    
    >Yeah, *right*.  
    
    As I predicted,. MorT can't and won't document his accusations, because
    he just made 'em up.  No congrats necessary; this was an easy one.
    
    >Btw, I'm still waiting for you to "document" this
    >famous pre-1973 business lag of yours.  Haw haw haw...
    
    
    That was the one which destroyed your entire fantasy about why the DH
    came into existence.  That was the one where you doubted this fact, and
    offered to document it as a challange to you, in return one of us would
    cave in on the Bob Knight/Dean Smith thing.  That was the one you have
    forever been too chicken to take me up on, and almost wisely so.  
    
    So congrats on being such a chicken and for so long too!
    
    Now, listen, I'll gladly document this and watch all your theories
    against the DH collapse like the house of cards it is.  You can just
    tell me, Dan, I refuse to accept your challange.  I mean, I wouldn't
    want this open-ended challange sticking out there like Bob Knight's
    red-clad belly embarrassing you for being afraid of it.  MorT, this is
    your old pal Dan talking. I understand.
    
    Dan

    Now that's a good one - NL baseball is better because there are more
    fights.  Why not take this a step futher and just let NHL'ers into the
    NL and we can watch real fights instead of a bunch of slap happy hissy
    fits.

re .158:

	Thanks Dickster.  Not wanting to tread too far onto the
	thin ice of this issue, what with the points of homosexuality
	being brought up, and the reference to a chimichanga as something
	a ball player scratches a lot, but --

	When I go to a Mexican restaurante, chimis are one of the things
	I usually like to order...chicken if they have them, beef
	otherwise, with a side of refried beans...YUM....

	(Actually, there's no Mexican food that I don't like...)

re hissy fits!

	Here, here!  I'd much rather see a big NHL player knockin'
	the other guy's block off, than a spindly-legged pitcher
	running out from the batter's box to try and slap the
	other pitcher who threw at him...

	These ball players make Danny Ainge's scalp massages seems
	like Arnold's hits in the Terminator!

'Saw

    Don't expect to see Roger Clemens in the NHL....read a quote from him
    saying as much as likes the game of hockey he doubts if he could play
    it, stating he doesn't think he would like being beaten up for 20
    minutes!

   He oughta be real used to the hockey net, though.
   It's exactly the same size as the strike zone they give him.
   (Although I understand he's negotiating to have the vertical parameters
   extend from the batter's shoe laces to the bill of his cap. [ inasmuch
   as this accommodation would only result in an additional four inches,
   everyone's pretty sure he'll get it ]).

   Mike JN

    >Now that's a good one - NL baseball is better because there are
    >more fights.
    
    While I agree that there are more fights, Mac, I cain't agree with
    your assertion that their (real) brand of the game is better than
    that of the ALmost for that reason.  
    
    Much more important than any stupid fights is the threat of them: If 
    it is understood that a little chin music will lead to full-scale
    orchestral renditions in response, then pitchers cain pitch inside 
    only with the understanding that if there's any funny business he'll
    pay.  If not him personally, then the team.  This leads the manager
    and the pitching coach to do some thinking (while at that very moment
    across town the ALmost manager is on the phone to the hotel porter
    arranging for the luggage to the airport).
    
    This leads to balance, depth, tension, and interest.  Like a scab on
    a sore, the fights are only a necessary evil to keep the system 
    running.  Ain't purty, no; but necessary to any good running system.
    
    MrT 

    	Bill White is a man's man.  No sissy suspensions for him!  Bravo!
    
    				/Don

    Following the MorT malarky...
    
    >Much more important than any stupid fights is the threat of them: If 
    >it is understood that a little chin music will lead to full-scale
    >orchestral renditions in response, then pitchers cain pitch inside 
    >only with the understanding that if there's any funny business he'll
    >pay.  If not him personally, then the team.  This leads the manager
    >and the pitching coach to do some thinking (while at that very moment
    >across town the ALmost manager is on the phone to the hotel porter
    >arranging for the luggage to the airport).
    
    >This leads to balance, depth, tension, and interest...
    
    Here is painted a seemingly important difference between AL and NL,
    based on the "threat of" fights and retribution "if there's any funny
    business". 
    
    "If not him personally, then the team."  Exactly.  But unfortunately,
    it spells out your error, because it underlines the *lack* of
    difference between the AL and NL in this entire matter.  Both leagues
    make the other team pay, whether the opposing pitcher is hitting or
    not.  In the AL, for years they've been playing tit for tat: you throw
    at my All Star and I'll throw out yours.
    
    All of the same instigations, threats and retributions are present in
    the AL.  All the same fights unfortunately occur.  All the same
    managerial thinking.
    
    Dan
    

    >it underlines the *lack* of difference
    
    Funny, I thought you said that batting pitchers were so much
    different than other batters.  Now, all of a sudden, they're
    the same.
    
    Here's some differences for you to value:
    
    1) It's a helluva lot harder to convince a player to plunk someone
       if he knows that he's gonna get personally re-plunked himself.
    
    2) Teams *really* have a protective attitude towards their pitchers
       when they're in the box.  Little bit different from some fat
       waddling slowfooted old geek who if he were in a *real* league
       woulda been retired years ago being plunked, now ain't it.
    
    No diff a-tall, schneid.  You're always right.  Tony Kubek and 
    Vin Scully and Peter Gammons and MrT and Castellano and Lupica and
    Red Smith and all the rest of us are wrong...
    
    MrT

    >Funny, I thought you said that batting pitchers were so much
    >different than other batters. 
    
    Gee, ya got me there, MorT.  Hitting a batter with a pitched ball is
    accomplished on a professional almost as easy as an incompetent.  If
    that's what you pay to see...
    
    >1) It's a helluva lot harder to convince a player to plunk someone
    >   if he knows that he's gonna get personally re-plunked himself.
    
    Ah, didn't we just go over how it comes back to bite you when you make
    stuff up like this?  Are there materially less HBPs in the NL?  Are
    there materially less fights in the NL?  Those are the questions which
    would be ansered positively if what you claim is true.  Which further
    illuminates the absurdity of your praising a fight in the NL.
    
    >2) Teams *really* have a protective attitude towards their pitchers
    >   when they're in the box.
    
    In the days of Maglie, Drysdale and Gibson, yes.  But the game has
    changed.  Pitching inside has changed, and the retribution for pitching
    inside has found a home even if it isn't the opposing pitcher.  
    
    It really doesn't change the complexion of either league in this case.
    
    MorT's claims are quite misplaced.
    
    Dan

Here's the race for NL Cy Young... {placed in order of how I see it right now}
This might be a closer race than the AL.  This is thru last Thursday, so it
doesn't include Drabek's recent good outing and Martinez's lousy one.

		    W   L  CG   IP    H   BB  SO     E.R.A
Doug Drabek         15  5  5   165.2 142  46  89     2.87
Ramon Martinez      15  5  8   165.2 133  48 176     3.09
Frank Viola         15  7  6   168.1 151  40 123     3.04
Tom Browning        12  6  2   176.0 171  38  78     3.01

    re .171:
    
    Doug, could you please also post Dennis Martinez' numbers?  
    
    
    Thanks,
    py

                     W  L  CG   IP     H   BB  K     ERA
Dennis Martinez      9  8  6    181.2 155  38 129    2.92  

A contender, but he'd have to win at least 16 to be a serious contender
in my book.   Viola and Martinez will get too many votes.

    Thanks Doug (I didn't think Dennis' win total was up there with the
    others).
    
    
    py

    tha ptizberg paruts one tunite, thaa bete tha redz 4-3.
    
    razamataz
    

    	Eric Davis looked like he was auditioning for a part on Dance
    Fever.

It bothers me that the official scorere can award an error to a shortstop who
has ranged far from his position to make an incredible stop and then throws
the ball a few feet off of the bag allwing the runner to be safe....

In the meantime...He can't award an error to the play of Eric Davis last night..

I know they can't award an error under the rules unless the ball is touched, but
to me it stinks....


Metz

    Speaking of the Davis error...
    
    
    A long, long time ago, "The Gunner" (those who are Pirates fans will
    remember him, and probably this story) explained to the Pirates fans
    the difference between a "Ground Rule Double" and a "Book Rule Double".
    
    I've never heard anyone else but the Gunner make this distinction, but
    again last night the Davis error (which, by the way, I agree with you
    .177) was called "Ground Rule".  According to Prince, Ground rules only
    apply to things specific to the park in which you're playing, like if
    the ball got caught in the ivy on Forbes Field.  Book rules apply to
    every park, and bouncing over the fence is a Book Rule Double.
    
    
    Am I mistaken, or is this really true?
    
    
    -bill

    
    Technically, that's correct, but "ground rule" has now become such 
    accepted terminology I think it's understood, even amongst umpires.
    
    glenn
     

    Anyone got an NLCS Game 3 update?

    Reds lead 5-2 in the 5th.  Mariano Duncan just hit a 3-run shot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Reds beat the Pirates 6-3, dammit.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    RE: .179
    
    So, if it's technically correct, and these bozo announcers keep
    screwing it up, let's start a letter writing camapaign!
    
    -milt
    Who's always had that "book rule" and "ground rule" talk by the Gunner
    in the back of his mind.  It usually started something like 
    
    "and for you ladies who are just getting into this great game of
    baseball..." (remember, this was in thelate 60's, early 70's)
    
    
    

    RE: .182
    
    
    Right, dammit.
    
    
    It should have been 5-3, but who really cares.  When the 3-run homer
    was hit in the 5th, the guy on first (I can't remember who) shouldn't
    have been there since he was clearly out at first on the prior play!
    
    
    Game 4, tomorrow.  Game 1 pitchers go at it again in Three Rivers
    
    
    -milt
    

    The Bucs NEED to take the next 2 games in 3 Rivers to have a realistic
    chance at winning the NL.  If they go back to Cincy down 3-2, they'll
    have a tough time winning both games in Riverfront.
    
    The Bucs outfield has let them down so far in the NLCS.
    Combined, VanSlyke Bonilla and Bonds are something like 6-39.  The Bucs
    will have to get some production out of these 3 to have any chance at
    taking the NL title.
    
    JaKe
    

USA Today polled players and coaches from each league - to choose the winners
of this years awards.  According to their peers, the following won:

American League: (Total Votes in Parentheis)

MVP:

Cecil Fielder 145 1/2
Rickey Henderson  67 1/2
Kelly Gruber   3
Bobby Thigpen  3

Cy Young:

Bob Welch 143
Roger Clemens 40
Dave Stewert 24

Comeback Player of Year:

George Brett   67
Cecil Fielder  63
Alan Trammall  31

Rookie of Year:

Sand Alomar  157
Kevin Maas    30
Kevin Appier  24

Manager of Year:

Jeff Torborg:  170 1/2
Tony La Russa  46
Joe Morgan      6 1/2

National League:

MVP:

Barry Bonds   113 1/2
Bobby Bonilla  48 1/2
Ryne Sandberg  22

Cy Young:

Doug Drabek 156 1/2
Ramon Martinez  41 1/2
Frank Viola  11

Comeback Player:

Ron Gant   127
John Tudor  23
Dennis Boyd  15

Rookie of Year:

Dave Justice 173
Delino DeSheilds 26
John Burkett  6

Manager of Year:

Jim Leyland   158 1/2
Lou Piniella   23
Buck Rodgers   18

    
    	So who's winning the WORLD SERIES?
    
    B.A.
    

    The Reds are winning 7-zippo in the 6th inning.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    I only got to see the the first 5 innings and being that I predicted
    the A's in 6, I might be in trouble!!!! The A's looked all tore up and
    Stewart...I don't know what happened to him. Walked 4 batters in 3
    innings. Well, thats only one game!!!! I still say the A's will take
    it, they were just alittle nervous and that 1st inning really shook
    them up!!!!!! Davis SLAMMED that ball!!!!!!
    
    Tonight.............A's 7  Cinci 3
    
                                                          M.J.

    Nice win for the Reds last night, no question.  Eric Davis, sore
    shoulder and all, set the tone by delivering one of those crushing
    2-out, 2-run homers, something the Red Flops only dreamed about against
    Oakland.
    
    Don't get me wrong, I'm a Flops fan.  But comparing them to Cincinnati
    is like comparing a Renoir to my 3-year olds water colors pictures. 
    (She's pretty good though.)  The Reds can:
    
    o Hit home runs.
    o Steal bases.
    o Play defense.
    o Have a bullpen.
    
    The fact that they busted Stewart open sets a nice psychological tone
    for this Series, but there's still a *long* way to go ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

>    is like comparing a Renoir to my 3-year olds water colors pictures. 

Chris, are they predominately baby blue?  [big 8^)]


Glad to see that Stewart is mortal.  After Davis' homer, he was trying
to put on his "I'm pissed off" game face, but I've seen that on the
rugby pitch, and most times it's a lot of bravado.

Should be an interesting, well fought series.  Even as Flops fan,
I wouldn't mind seeing Sweet Lou cop a managerial Series ring....

'Saw

> Chris, are they predominately baby blue?

Yea, for some reason that *does* seem to be her favorite color.  Must've
picked it up from my genes ...

BTW, she's already committed to Carolina.  After Dean blessed her at my
infamous meeting with the man I took her straight down to the admissions
office and signed her up.  Once my 2nd pops in January we'll head back
up and get him/her enrolled too!


- ACC Chris

Chris --

You're too funny..... Although if they let you pay her tuition now,
you'd probably save a bundle...

fw

    Since this appears to be the note where last night's World Series game
    is being discussed, I was pretty amazed at how handily the Reds won,
    considering the power and might of the A's that we all hear about.  A
    lot of people commented on how the A's took Boston without having to
    display any power.  While that is true, I don't think the A's did that
    purposely.  I think that they're in a power slump.  Look at Canseco's
    home run stat for instance, something like only 3 since early August.
    And yes, it's only 1 game, but if the A's don't hit some long balls
    that they're noted for, they may just surprise everyone, except the
    Reds, that is.......
    
    I think tonight's game will tell the tale of the rest of the series. 
    It's a must game for the A's, not just the W, but they must hit at
    least 2 homers to re-establish their power.
    
    This sort of reminds me of the '69 World Series, featuring the mighty
    Orioles against the Cinderella Mets.  Cincinatti may not be a
    Cinderella, but the A's certainly are the almighty ones.  We'll see.
    
    Hawk

    
    Random thoughts:
    
    - You'd think Schotzie would have better taste than to show up on
    national TV with a dog like Marge.
    
    - I was waiting for Marge to mention her car dealership or something. 
    I can't ever remember an owner wasting so much time before a WS game
    before.  Even George had more taste than that.
    
    - Did anyone else seem to notice A LOT more old ladies in the stands
    when they scanned the seats?  What does Marge do, invite her bridge
    club?
    
    - I thought from the beginning that this would be the easiest game for
    the Reds to win-- they were pitching their only starter righty and
    Stewart is notoriously bad on 5 days rest, nmever mind 6. 
    
    - I was surprised LaRussa pulled Stew as early as he did.  If he is
    going to start him in game 4, as planned, I'd think he wants him
    slightly tired.  I don't know what his pitch count was, but I don't
    think it even got up to 75.  I wonder if LaRussa is thinking of
    bringing him back in Game 3.
    
    - The A's didn't seem to have that much trouble hitting the ball, and
    they were getting around on the fastballs, which are good signs.  The
    biggest problem was that they seemed to get all their men on (except
    once) with 1 or 2 outs.  They need to start getting the leadoff hitter
    on.
    
    - I thought Piniella made a mistake by bringhin in 2 of the nasty boys
    in for the 8th and 9th.  The heart of the A's lineup now has seen them
    once, in meaningless situations.  LaRussa did a similar thing, but it
    was the bottom of the Reds order, and was only 3 batters.  I wouyld
    like to keep the element of surprise with the relievers, and let them
    get the work they need in the pen.
    
    
    Bruce  

    Hawk, did you have to bring up 1969? :-(
    
    Re Bruce:
    
    >	- You'd think Schotzie would have better taste than to show up on
    >	national TV with a dog like Marge.
    
    great line!

    Sorry, Paul!  :-)
    
    Another comment that I forgot in my previous reply......  Does anyone
    else think Stewart got jobbed on lots of ball calls that appeared to be
    strikes?  I dunno, but a lot of the same pitches that Rijo threw the
    ump called strikes.  Stewart definitely didn't have complete control of
    his stuff, but a lot of those balls were strikes, I thought......
    
    Hawk 

    
    > This sort of reminds me of the '69 World Series, featuring the mighty
    > Orioles against the Cinderella Mets.  Cincinatti may not be a
    > Cinderella, but the A's certainly are the almighty ones.  We'll see.
    
    It reminds me more of 1971, when the Orioles' "dynasty" suffered its
    second WS loss in three years, a fate identical to the one this great
    A's team may suffer.  I think the A's and Reds are much more closely
    matched than people think given some extenuating circumstances (Reds
    are coming together nicely for a short series, A's are slumping 
    offensively), just as was with the Orioles and Pirates in 1971.
    
    The Dodgers were the Athletics' Mets; now they know that anything can
    happen. 
    
    Those Series losses overshadowed the Orioles' 109, 108, and 101-win
    regular seasons, not to mention their perfect 9-0 playoff record.
    
    glenn

    Well, over in he Mets conference, I said Reds in 6.  Pressure is
    on the A's.  There's more at stake than just a WS victory - this
    series determines if the A's are a dynasty, as I read every day,
    or simply one of the most overrated teams in history.
    
    If the Reds beat on Welch tonight, which I can see happening, the
    collars could tighten.  Then again, the A's have the talent to take
    the nexted 4.
    
    JD

    Totally disagree with your Stewart comment Hawk.  The guy was all over
    the place last night.  Most of his balls weren't even close.  Now it's
    true that an ump will give the benefit of the doubt to a pitcher who's
    around the plate (which Stewart wasn't), but I still don't recall many
    borderline calls.  Simply put, Stewart just had a bad game.
    
    The A's seemed to hit alot of balls hard last night that were right at
    people.  I can recall several line drives to RF that were caught. 
    There's definitely a long way to go in this series but even throwing
    out last nights game I still feel the Reds are not overmatched by the
    A's, as the press would have us believe, especially in a short series
    as glenn points out.  (Reds have some problems with starting pitching
    depth with Armstrong hurt.  That problem gets covered up in a short
    series.  Good analogy with the O's in '71 who had *loads* of starting 
    pitching depth, a good deal of which is worthless when you go with a 
    3-man rotation.)
    
    Does anybody know what Danny Jackson's success rate against Oakland was
    when he pitched in the AL?  The A's hit better against lefties, but
    Jackson's been pitching pretty well lately.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    > There's more at stake than just a WS victory - this
    > series determines if the A's are a dynasty, as I read every day,
    > or simply one of the most overrated teams in history.
      
    Unfortunately, this probably will be the common perception, although I
    feel that it's unfair.  Unlike say the Mets, the A's will have gotten 
    there three straight years, something that if they lose history will 
    fault them more for than just getting there one year and winning it.
               
    Dynasties should be rated primarily on consistent, dominant performance 
    in the regular season, secondly on pennants (pre-1969 this was the same 
    as criteria #1), and thirdly on World Series victories.  I would regard
    the Brooklyn Dodgers of 1947-56 as a "dynasty", even though they won it
    all only once.
    
    Baseball is funny in that even in a 7-game series more can happen than
    in a one-game championship in football, where talent and physical
    dominance usually always win out.
    
    glenn
    

    Actually, I think one clear perception that might emerge is how
    completely inferior the ALEast and the Flops were this year compared to
    everyone else in baseball...
    
>    Baseball is funny in that even in a 7-game series more can happen than
>    in a one-game championship in football, where talent and physical
>    dominance usually always win out.
    
    I disagree.  One bad bounce, call, or slip can cost your team 7 points
    and the Super Bowl (even though most of the last few years have been
    lopsided).  Witness the 'parity', and the inability of most pre-season
    mags to pick 5/8 post-season contenders.
    
    I would think that 7 games should be enough to establish superiority,
    and is one of the things I've always liked about the non-football
    sports...  'Course, the same applies in the seventh game, but...
    
    ML

    
>>    Baseball is funny in that even in a 7-game series more can happen than
>>    in a one-game championship in football, where talent and physical
>>    dominance usually always win out.
    
   > I disagree.  One bad bounce, call, or slip can cost your team 7 points
   > and the Super Bowl (even though most of the last few years have been
   > lopsided).  Witness the 'parity', and the inability of most pre-season
   > mags to pick 5/8 post-season contenders.
    
    Most of the last few years?  How many Super Bowls have left any doubt
    as to which team was better?  Parity is a different story.  I'm only
    referring to separating a single champion from the rest of the pack,
    not establishing who the best of the rest are.
    
    Look at the percentages.  In baseball, the difference between a .600
    team and a .550 team is huge and proves out over a 162-game season.  In 
    football, it's less than one game over a 16-game schedule, much too
    small to tell you anything, really.  Apply those well-separated
    baseball percentages over a seven-game series, and the probability of 
    upset is still fairly large (for example, applying the A's percentage 
    versus the Red Sox' resulted in a 30% chance of victory for the Sox, 
    pretty significant considering the perceived mismatch.  The Reds' 
    chances were much better, which is why that 3-to-1 Vegas betting line 
    was set way too high if you're into that kind of thing).  In the NFL, a 
    .600 team is not a serious championship contender.  Even with the 
    scheduling-rigging employed to give great teams tough schedules and 
    poor teams easy ones (making all the teams look like they're closer 
    together than they really are), the difference between the best team 
    and the average team in football is still far greater than in baseball.
    That's not to say that two very evenly matched teams (even as well
    matched as the A's and Reds) can't meet up in the Super Bowl, but
    it hasn't been borne out in general in the game's results over the
    years. 
    
    In another example, is there any doubt that baseball championships are
    much more unpredictable than basketball's over a seven-game series, where
    again in a higher-scoring game where physical talent takes over out the 
    best team almost always wins?
    
    glenn
       

    Word has it that the Cincinnati Reds are going to retire Pete Rose's
    number which is:
    
    1214957
    the one he's wearing now that is!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Marge CheapSchott has got to be the worst owner in baseball.  First she
    puts the Pirates' families up near the clouds.  Then she puts the
    Oakland team officials on the mezzanine.  Then she sings in public.
    
    OK, that last one was stretching it, but get a load of this:
    
    Eric Davis says she never visited or called him in the Oakland
    hospital.  Then he had to charter a flight home because Marge wouldn't
    pay for him to come home.
    
    Marge's comment: "This feud has ruined my world series celebration."
    
    	--dan'l

    � Marge CheapSchott has got to be the worst owner in baseball.  
    
    Now that Steinbrenner is history, that is.
    
    � Then he had to charter a flight home because Marge wouldn't pay for
    � him to come home.
    
    He had to "charter" a flight ???  What the hell does that mean ???  
    How does *one* person "charter" a flight ???  Last time I flew on my
    own, I didn't "charter" it, that's for sure.  I *PAID* for it.
    
    Hey, I'm sorry that Eric Davis got hurt.  I wish him well.  I
    sympathize with his pain.  But I am *NOT* going to feel bad for him
    because he had to pay for a seat or two on an Oakland-Cincy flight. 
    Eric Davis can afford airplane tickets, believe me.
    
    This sounds like it's soon gonna be contract renegotiation time for
    Eric and the Reds.
    
    � Marge's comment: "This feud has ruined my world series celebration."
    
    Then go give Schottzie a kiss, Marge.
    
    Bob Hunt

    If a player gets hurt on any road trip, be it in college or the pros,
    the team, at least out of decency, is required to pay that player's
    expenses to get home.  Eric Davis probably didn't need to charter a
    plane to get home (unless he had to come home on a stretcher) but paid
    for his transportation and I feel the Reds should have.  Affordability
    isn't the issue - "the right thing to do" is.
    
    UMass got Gary Wilkos back to campus from Delaware as well.
    
    I'll admit the cases aren't similar, but the Patriots left a club
    official behind when Darryl Stingley got hurt and several club
    officials went out to visit him before the team flew him home.  John
    and Virginia Madden went to visit Darryl regularly.  Marge could have
    at least called and Marge should have paid for Davis to get back to
    Cincy.
    
    John

    Davis had to charter a flight because his kidney condition requires
    him to remain on his back.  Don't think commercial flights can
    accomodate this kind of thing.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    John,
    
    I'm not on Marge's side and I'm not on Eric's side.   I agree with you
    that the Reds organization could have and should have paid closer
    attention to his medical condition and they should have paid for all
    his expenses incurred as a result of his injury.  Just like any
    employer/employee relationship.
    
    But it's real hard to work up any tears for a guy making a few million
    dollars a year who has to pay for a stupid plane ticket.
    
    In this one, you're forced to support either Mr. Prima Donna *OR* Mrs.
    Daddy Warbucks and I think they *both* are a lot of hot air.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Davis took out a full page ad in the Cincinnati paper thanking the fans
    for all their cards and letters while he was in the hospital.  Said
    this really made him feel at home in Cinci.
    
    My cynical mind sez this was a slick move on Davis' agents part ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

       According to the nooze last night, it cost Eric $15,000 for that
    'plane ticket'.
                                       Denny

>    My cynical mind sez this was a slick move on Davis' agents part ...
    
And I guess I must be the opposite Chris.  

We sometimes forget that these guys are people too, and no matter
how much of a prima donna, it's entirely possible that he was
touched by the outpouring of well wishes.

What would Dan say about all this?  8^)

'Saw

    
    Yeah, I got the impression that Davis was still hooked up to IV's and
    stuff on his flight home and required the special charter.  Marge
    claimed that the doctors said he shouldn't even have left.  Why should
    Marge care?  Probably because Davis is going to require further medical 
    treatment whether in Cincy or Oakland, and she's out the charter costs
    because Davis might like to come home sometime.
    
    If Marge really is going to try to stick Davis with the bill, she's
    cheaper than I thought.  And I don't care how much money he's making.
    The guy sustained a very serious injury in a World-Series winning
    effort and deserves to be treated with a little dignity (Davis' quote:
    "If I were a dog, I'd have been taken care of.  And I'm serious.").
    The episode has ruined Marge's memories of the Series?  Wonderful.
    That'll leave them with the players, who deserve them, not some stingy
    old b***h who has done her best to tear down a franchise that some
    intelligent, hard-working people (since long gone) helped to build.
    
    glenn
                                                   

    Dan would most likely check to see what college Eric went to before
    saying anything.  If he discovers that Eric went to Notre Dame, clearly,
    it'd be a miracle if the Danster would say anything nice about saintly
    Eric.....  :-)
    
    Hawk

    Bob,  do you still feel the same way now that it wasn't just a matter
    of a plane ticket, rather, it required a charter plane in order for him
    to get home?  (I'm not bashing you, I'm asking)
    
    John

    � Bob,  do you still feel the same way now that it wasn't just a matter
    � of a plane ticket, rather, it required a charter plane in order for him
    � to get home?  
    
    Yes, it becomes a different matter altogether if Eric Davis (or any
    other player) needs special medical arrangements in order to fly home.
    
    In this case, the word "charter" then becomes appropriate.
    
    Let's chalk this one up to the "Cry Wolf" syndrome.   Over the years,
    we've all heard Eric Davis and numerous other superstars bellyache
    about all kinds of supposed injustices.   Now when something is
    legitimately out of whack like this, it is hard to rally to his cause,
    wouldn't you agree ???
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    P.S.  He can afford the $15,000, too.  And if he can't, I'm sure there
    are any number of sheep in Cincy willing to "donate" to his cause.  
    Hell, they were willing to pay Sam Wyche's fines for him, fer cryin'
    out loud.
    
    Sorry, I'm in a cynical mood these days.

>What would Dan say about all this?  8^)
    
    Marge Schott is insurance against this Reds team from every being
    dynastic.  She's one of the most vulgar people in sports.
    
    Dan

       Ah, Dan's just mad cause she wouldn't let him on the team with his
    beard!
                                   Denny ;^)	

    Dan, who is more repulsive, Marge or Lou?  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    Hawk, I heard Lou and Marge were lovers. No aint that an awful site
    to behold! UGH! 8^)
    
    
    
    Steve

    Lou Holtz is noble!  Did you axtually say that, Danster?!
    
    Sorry, I meant Lou Holtz.  I realize you meant Lou Pinacollada(tm)!
    
    Hawk

    Marge Schott is to the Cincinnati Reds as Dan Schneider is to
    OURGNG::SPORTS  8^)

    Marge Schitt makes Rosanne Barr look like Kelly Bundy!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    re .211
    
    Bob, a punctured kidney is not a lot of hot air. It hurts, and was
    serious as hell. I won't get into the charter thing, but basic decency
    says to give the man a call. And Marge didn't .... what crass ....

    I listened to more information on this incident last night on the
    Mizlou Sports New Network.
    
    According to their reports, it was a $15,000 hospital bill *and* a
    plane ticket that Marge Schott refused to pay.   The plane ticket did
    *not* cost 15 grand.
    
    Where's the emergency room and hospitalization insurance coverage ???  
    Doesn't Eric carry Blue Cross and Blue Shield or something ???   Don't
    the Reds pay their Workmen's  Comp premiums ???   Something's not right
    here.
    
    Once again, let me repeat, I'm not on Marge's side.  She's a tight
    cheap owner and I'm sure her players were not playing to win the World
    Series for *her* sake.   She's handles public relations about as well
    as Bob Knight does.
    
    But there's too much being made of this incident and methinks more and
    more that Eric Davis is just "sharpening his knives" in preparation for
    a nasty contract battle.   Which will make me yawn ...
    
    Bob Hunt

       From what I heard it was a special medical flight and it DID cost
    $15,000!
                                                      Denny

    
    Eric Davis settled his contract differences with the Reds at the
    beginning of this past year, dropping his complaints about playing on
    artificial turf and his stated desire to play with buddy Darryl
    Strawberry in LA.  He's signed for at least two more years.  I
    seriously doubt that there are any kind of negotiating motives involved
    here, especially given the kind of off year Davis had in 1990
    immediately after signing the contract.  I wouldn't read anything more
    into the situation than that.
    
    glenn
     

    Bob buddy.  What if you went to Oakland on a business trip and got hurt
    while you were there, had to stay an extra week, and then Digital
    didn't pay for your trip home.  Any one of us would bitch to high
    heaven.  But some homeless person might say, "Awwww, Bob Hunt makes
    $XX,000 per year.  You mean he can't afford an $800 plane fair home?"
    
    Perspective is relative, no?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    re: 15K plane ticket
    
    	If it was an emergency, that figure is not that far out of line.
    
    	Last year, my father-in-law had to be medi-vac'd from Harford
    Conn. to Houston Texas for surgery that was undoable on the east
    coast.  The doctor came in the room and told us that it would cost
    10.2K to fly him there (corp. lear jet) and that the company that
    set up the flight wanted a personal check backed by a credit card!!
    I tell you, this is no joke, I was there.  No money, no save your
    life!  They wouldn't take insurance, no medicare, no nothing, only
    a personal check backed by a credit card.  Luckily, my brother-in-law
    had an equity accout on his business and could write the check,
    but we still couldn't cover it with a credit card.  I did hear the
    doctor persuade them that "we" were good for it and that he would
    personally back it.  So, my father-in-law went to Houston and the
    surgery saved his life.
    
    	Just goes to show you that if you can't pay, you die...
    
    	So, if it was an emergency, it might of cost the Reds a lot
    of money.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    � Eric was wronged, "plane" and simple
    
    I know that. I've said that Marge Schott was wrong.   There's not one
    thing she did right in this case.  Zip.
    
    Eric Davis has just cried "Wolf" one too many times.  Now when he has
    an entirely legitimate complaint, I don't feel *terrible* for him.
    
    Perhaps, Eric should re-evaluate *his* perspectives, no ???  And maybe
    then he can separate the true complaints from the minor annoyances of
    his rather charmed life.
    
    Bob Hunt

    re .218
    
    No I don't Bob. Please exlain where Eric has been "bellyaching". The
    guy should donate his body to science at the end of his career - and
    has never been accused of loafing. 
    
    I don't care how much a year you make, the type of abuse that Davis
    takes playing the game (not to mention the long-term damage) - you
    can't put a dollar tag on. I see no Cry Wolf, and if someone thinks so,
    then I humbly submit that the person in question has not looked at the
    facts, and/or they've been caught up in this "He's making X million a
    year, he ought to be able to take it ..." (il)logic.
    
    I saw the same illogic used in Houston with J.R. Richard, and I was
    revolted then, and now.
    
    DrM

    Sounds like you've got an axe to grind to me, too, Bob.  You jumped to
    a bad conclusion.  I'm not aware of any crying of wolf.  I think Davis
    has every right to be pissed off at Schott.
    
    Dan

Any of you guys read The National??  Check out page 6 and then try to tell me 
that Marge and George (our Prez) aren't just MADE for each other!!!  ;^>

Scott

    For a little change of pase here
    
    Jim Leyland was named National League Manager of the Year by the
    Sportswriters Association of America today.  He got 17 of the 24 first
    place votes.
    
    JaKe
    

    � Sounds like you've got an axe to grind to me, too, Bob.
    
    Honestly, I don't, although I could probably go for an anti-cynical
    pill these days.  I just wistfully wonder what ever happened to those
    "good ol' days" where people settled their differences in private
    without microscopic media manipulation.
    
    Eric got the shaft, no doubt.  Marge is a tightwad, no doubt.  What
    will probably happen is that both their lawyers will get a little
    richer.
    
    Sigh.
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    P.S.   And I *still* want to find out why some form of insurance didn't
    cover all these expenses.

    Bob, you're spolied .... do you really think that DEc would let a Marge
    Schott run an organization ? :-) :-)

    >P.S.   And I *still* want to find out why some form of insurance didn't
    >cover all these expenses.
    
    The standard player contract provides for a 1st class ticket in the
    case of an injury.  The doctors told Davis he couldn't sit up for the
    extended period of the flight, that he'd have to fully recline for his
    damaged kidney to continue healing.  Thus the reason for the chartered
    medical flight and it's not being covered.
    
    Dan

    � The standard player contract provides for a 1st class ticket in the
    � case of an injury.  
    
    Fair enough.
    
    � The doctors told Davis he couldn't sit up for the extended period of
    � the flight, that he'd have to fully recline for his damaged kidney to
    � continue healing.  
    
    Ah-ha!  The long-sought-after missing nugget of information.  
    
    If this is so, then Eric Davis should have stayed in his Oakland
    hospital bed until he had healed and was well enough to fly in an
    ordinarily covered first class seat.  He didn't want to so he had to
    pay extra for his special accomodations.
    
    Now I feel even less sympathy for Eric Davis' out-of-pocket costs.  
    Once again, let me state that Marge Schott showed no class at all in
    this incident.  But Eric got what Eric wanted and Eric now may just
    have to pay for it.
    
    Bob Hunt

        
    Give it up, Bob.  As stated before, Davis' recuperation time is in the
    order of weeks or months, not days, for this type of injury.  He had 
    two choices: 1) stay in a hospital in Oakland for an indefinite period 
    long after his teammates had returned home to parades and adulation
    from the city of Cincinnati (apparently fully covered by team
    insurance) or 2) ask that the team he hurt himself performing for in
    the World Series to come up with the $15,000 so that he could return
    to family and recuperate at home (again also apparently covered, 
    probably at less expense to the team insurance company, though).  If
    the tables were turned and the injury had occurred during the season, 
    you can be sure that the Reds would have him flown whenever and 
    wherever they had to, at Marge's expense, to do whatever was necessary 
    to get him back on that playing field as soon as possible.  To leave 
    him out there high and dry at the end of the season over the matter of 
    a small amount of money is inexusable, in my opinion.  Sure, he could 
    foot the bill himself (which may just happen yet), but if that's the
    way Marge wants to play I would have no problem with *any* player, even 
    one I might dislike, complaining publicly about it.
    
    It appears that you have a problem with Davis' prior attitude and/or
    pay and will twist the facts *in this case* in whatever direction
    necessary to cast aspersions at Davis.  You've already speculated that
    you believe Davis is using the situation to "sharpen his knives" for 
    future contract battles (with no apparent justification in support of
    this position) and that no doubt someone (the lawyers) is going to make 
    money from it (huh? why?).  I have little doubt that if a star player on 
    one of your favorite teams was treated similarly after performing in a
    championship-winning effort under exactly the same circumstances you 
    would support the player and rail against the cheapness of the owner.  
    Why this crusade against Eric Davis based on the merits of this case?
    
    glenn
       

    I've got a real hard time following you, Bob.  You're peeved at Davis
    because he wants to recover from a serious injury close to his home
    rather than in a distant city?  Because he wanted the consideration due
    a human, and felt like a discarded piece of meat once the season was
    over?
    
    You can phrase it that "Eric got what Eric wanted and has to pay for
    it", but in my view, Eric got what every employee in the world should
    get, and since he injured himself on the job, he should be covered by
    and grateful and concerned employer.
    
    Dan

 Davis was on SportsCenter last night and one of the things he said that really
 had me rooling was that when he was hitting .220 Marge had no problems sending
 him to 8 different eye doctors to see what the problem was and paying the bill.
 
 The Guys on the SportsCenter said it best, "If only she would treat her players
 like she does Dogs."

 mike

    
    MARGE SCHNOTT(tm) IS A CLASSIC B*TCH!!
    
    
    
    
    
    Steve

�    Bob, you're spoiled .... do you really think that DEc would let a Marge
�    Schott run an organization ? :-) :-)

DEC'd roll over and beg for her.
And as many like her as they could get.
Gots to have lady managers, ya know... whether they're competent or not.

Mike JN

    Geez, now I'm starting to find out how T feels.   
    
    I take a position on an issue that is ever-so-slightly off the
    middle-of-the-road from you guys and the next thing you know I've got
    some kind of vicious, unsubstantiated vendetta against Eric Davis.
    
    Let me say it one more time.  In black and white.   Marge Schott was
    dead wrong.  Eric Davis was 100% right.  Anybody need it any clearer
    than that ???
    
    Okay, that's the black-and-white.  It would be nice if all such things
    in life were so simple.  Unfortunately, they are not.  There is some
    gray area here.
    
    One "gray" area is Eric Davis' medical condition.   He had a lacerated
    kidney, a very serious internal injury.  His doctors told him he could
    *NOT sit upright ("with your tray table in its fully locked position",
    naturally) and then fly home to Cincy any earlier then he wanted to.
    
    He wanted to anyway.   To do so, the doctors advised that he fly while
    lying down on a stretcher or a bed of some sorts.   That costs extra.  
    The player contract calls for a first class ticket in case of an
    on-the-road injury.   Eric Davis wanted more than that.  The player
    contract does not cover a stretcher.   Eric Davis wanted a stretcher
    and that costs extra.   He's not wrong in *asking* for it.  He's wrong
    in thinking that he is *entitled* to it.   He is not, according to his
    contract.
    
    Now we turn to Marge Schott.  She's an imbecile and a jerk.   As a
    human being, she should have bent over backwards seeing to Davis'
    welfare.  Hell, as a businesswomen, she should have gone the extra mile
    just to protect her long-term investment in Davis' future performance,
    if for no other matter.
    
    I am not against ballplayers *asking* for more, especially so in this
    case.   What I am against is the feeling Eric Davis has that he, Eric
    Davis, is entitled to it.  He is entitled to what his contract calls
    for.   A decent human being of an owner would have seen to it that he
    was taken care of properly.  Marge Schott is not a decent human being
    of an owner.   *THAT* is the crux of Eric Davis' latest problems.   It
    is certainly not *news* to us all that Marge Schott's a heartless
    <rhymes-with-hitch>.
    
    And it doesn't make a damn bit of difference that it's not the
    Phillies.
    
    The end.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Well then, why didn't you just say so in the firsted place, BoB?
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    I read you now, Bob; I was just worried about the more-than-meets-the-
    eye-possible-ulterior-motives-prima-donna comments before...
    
    glenn
    

    	Bob Hunt sympathizing with MrT?  The Boston Globe endorsing
    a republican?  The Boston Herald endorsing a democrat?  Just what
    in the holy hail is going on here?
    
    				/Don

/Don, haven't you heard?  It's that Harmonic Flatulence thing.
Something to do with all the planets, moons, stars, comets,
nebulae, quasars, qwarks, and Klingons all farting at the same
time.....

HTH,
'Saw

Good commentary `Saw

Insight and compassion

KLINALONGS AR PEEPL TO!!!!!!

Mike JN

    I did.  Now I have to find out where this group keeps the screen
    cleaner.
    
    A&W

    A&W, I thought by now you would've learned to keep Handi-wipes
    within arm's reach, especially on friday's!  :-)
    
    Hawk

    I'm still unpacking from my move.  Cain't find nuffin yet.
    
    A&W

    Darryl Strawberry is expected to sign a $25 million 5-year contract
    with the Dodgers today.  He will be the second highest paid player in
    MLB behind Jose.
    
    If Pittsburgh doesn't start signing back a majority of their players,
    especially the outfield, you can hand the NL East title to Montreal
    now.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    	It's now official.  Strawberry has signed a multi-year contract
    with the Dodgers.  He's now back home where he wants to be. 
    
    	Word is that the METS are courting Rueben Sierra, Von Hays, and/or
    Tim Raines.  
    
    	METS will feel the effects of this gaff(much like the stupid Seaver 
    trade in '77) for years to come.  :-(		   		
    
    						 glen j.

    �	Word is that the METS are courting Rueben Sierra, Von Hays, and/or
    � Tim Raines.  
    
    None of whom are free agents right now, right ???
    
    Isn't this called "tampering" ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    	Raines was, but was recently resigned by the 'Spos.  Not sure 'bout
    Sierra and Hayes though.
    
    	With the impending, and now official loss of Strawman, a few names
    were mentioned as possible winter acquisitions, via trade, by the fans.  
    I have no idea of what management is thinking, aside from completely
    dismantling what was a solid collection of players.  
    
    						 glen j.  

    I predict the Mets will win without the disruptive influence of
    the Strawman.  
    
    JD

Da Mets will have a lot better chance at a pennant widdout the
disruptive influence of Sterile Drawberry (tm).

Mike JN

    re .265, .266:
    
    If Sierra were to come to the Mets it would be via trade, not a free
    agent signing.  A Texas noter in the Mets' notesfile said that there
    have been Sierra to NY trade rumors (not sure how serious they are).
    
    
    py

    Darryl Strawberry *and* Kirk Gibson in the same outfield ???
    
    Tommy's gonna need Mylanta next year to wash down his Slim Fast shakes.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Great line by Mike Francesa on WFAN yesterday:  "With an outfield
    of Daniels in left, Strawberry in center, and Brooks in right, I'd
    loft a few flies to the outfield and see what happens, if I were
    the Dodgers' opposition."  A great point - that could be one of the
    worst fielding outfields in history.  If they start the season that
    way, I predict the Dodgers make a trade for a centerfielder by June.
    
    NAZZ

I don't have Darryl's lifetime stats, but The National printed the 
following comparison today:

Power Ratings (4 highest paid non-pitchers)
Totals from the past five seasons

			Avg.	HR	RBI	Total Bases
Jose Canseco		.279	160	512	1,301
Darryl Strawberry	.263	171	483	1,350
Don Mattingly		.314	107	471	1,418
Will Clark		.301	117	447	1,362

-Mike

    re: .270 Bob H.
    
    	Gibson is a free agent this year.  Being that the Dodgers have
    signed Darryl, I doubt that LA will sign him.
    
    						 glen j.  
    
    	

			Avg.	HR	RBI	Total Bases
Jose Canseco		.279	160	512	1,301
Darryl Strawberry	.263	171	483	1,350
Don Mattingly		.314	107	471	1,418
Will Clark		.301	117	447	1,362
    
    Not a bad showing, Donnie.  And remember, he missed or was injured most
    of last season, and the year before these stats started accumulating
    was his monster MVP season.
    
    The Mets really, really blew it big time with Darryl.  They could have
    locked him up if they negotiated wisely, and they need him badly
    despite all the bad press and fan reaction.  It startles me to think
    that as recently as the 1986 World Series, Strawberry was only in his
    3rd season.  He's only 28 and has got a lot of baseball left in him.  A
    tragedy for the Mets sake.
    
    Dan

Those aren't the best players in the game dan....they are the highest paid 
players.....

Clark and Strawbaby(tm) are going to get better...Don-bo is on his way to a 
quick,sharp,steep downhill slide (do partly to injury..just like Jose)

Metz

    re .274, .275:
    
    I agree with Metz.  If Mattingly regains his 1984-1987 form, then we
    can start the "best player in baseball" talk up again.  Not until.
    
    
    py

    Dodger's got Strawberry. Parade in October!!!
    

�    Dodger's got Strawberry. Parade in October!!!

Around here they're billing the new Dodger outfield as The Head Case
Dog It Outfield.

From what I hear, the best way to beat them is to loft some flies to
the outfield.....

many 8^)

'Saw
    

Johnny Ard?!?  I thought next to Banks he was the top prospect.  For a washed
up reliever?  Tough trade.

    Just read in another conferece something about the Blue Jays trading
    Fred McGriff andc Tony Fernandez to the Padres forJoe Carter and
    Roberto Alomar.  No details, don't even know if its true..
    
    JD

    
    	SF Giants signed Dave Righetti for something like $10 mil....	
    I barely saw the headline in the Post so I don't have any other 
    details.
    
    						 glen j.
    

Wed Dec 05 17:21
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SPORTSTICKER BASEBALL NOTE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(UPDATING)

The Toronto Blue Jays today traded shortstop Tony Fernandez 
and first baseman Fred McGriff to the San Diego Padres for    
outfielder Joe Carter and second baseman Roberto Alomar.

The trade is the first major deal engineered by new Padres 
General Manager Joe McIlvaine and ranks as the biggest of the
winter meetings.

Carter returns to the American League after just one year in 
the National League.  He was traded by Cleveland to the Padres 
last year in a deal for Alomar's brother, Sandy, who went on
to become A-L Rookie of the Year.

McGriff hit .300 last season with 35 homers, the fourth highest
total in the A.L., and 88 R-B-I.  

Fernandez, one of the best fielding shortstops in the majors, 
hit .276 with four homers and 66 R-B-I and had a major 
league-leading 17 triples.

Carter batted .232 with the Padres with 24 homers and ranked
third in the league with 115 runs batted in.
                     
Alomar hit .287 with six homers and 60 R-B-I and stole 24 
bases.

Toronto General Manager Pat Gillick said the trade enables the 
Blue Jays to make John Olerud their full-time first baseman and 
Carter will be used in the outfield.  Manny Lee will replace 
Fernandez at shortstop with prospect Eddie Zosky waiting in
the wings.

McIlvaine said the addition of McGriff will help in the event the 
Padres lose slugger Jack Clark to second look free agency.  He
said the deal was put together in the last 24 hours.

"I can't ever remember a trade this big being done so quickly.  
This was a foundation type of trade which we can build on."

McIlvaine had been responsible for handling the New York Mets'
player moves in recent years.

Blue Jays Manager Cito Gaston said the addition of Carter provides
insurance in the event free agent slugger George Bell signs with 
another club. 

"We're not sure if George is coming back,"Gaston said.  "We also 
really like John Olerud and he needs to play every day."

                 ----- more to come -----

    I can't believe the Jays moved McGriff so easily.  I'm really shocked
    at this deal.  I don't think Carter is the answer in the bastard turf
    OF in Toronto, and I don't think Olerud will make them forget McGriff. 
    What's more, unless Fernandez has really lost something (a
    possibility), Manny Lee is just a bad joke in his stead.  I don't see a
    Alomar/Lee infield being better afield than a Lee/Fernandez, and being
    worse at the plate.
    
    For SD, they finally get to get Templeton off the field, and they get a
    young premeire slugger.  They gave up a lot for that, but I think it
    will work out for them.
    
    Dan

>>    possibility), Manny Lee is just a bad joke in his stead.  I don't see a

Apparently Toronto thinks Zosky will be ready this year.

    What are the ages of the players moved in the Padre-Blue Jays trade?
    
    JK
    

    Rough guess :
    
    McGriff 27
    Fernandez 29-30
    
    Carter 28
    Alomar 23

    McGriff 27
    Fernandez 28
    
    Carter 31
    Alomar 23